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What Brandon Roy Means to My Ministry


I am the pastor of a medium size church about an hour outside of Portland. I usually sit in the 300 level at Blazer games, yet have a frontrow seat to the struggles families are having in such a difficult economic time. Not only are bank accounts suffering, but so are family relationships.

Last spring, I took 8 economically disadvantaged kids to a Blazer game verses the Suns (the one where Joel and Shaq went nose to nose). It was the first Blazer game for all of them. A 4th grade boy was one of the kids who went. I didn't know him well then, but I knew his parents, whose marriage is struggling as a result of trying to survive a difficult economic time.

The boy brought an 8x10 of Brandon Roy to the game that he wanted to get autographed. I explained to him that the players aren't as accessible as they used to be. I enjoyed telling about the days of the Coliseum where as a kid I hung out around the door of the locker room and got the autographs of Terry Porter and Jerome Kersey. I also told him about the time Rick Adelman asked for some of the Skittles I was eating.

The boy didn't get Brandon's autograph that night, but we began a friendship that is still growing today. The Sunday morning following the game, he gave that 8x10 photo of Roy. On the back of it he had written me a thank you note for taking him to the game on the back of it. It hangs in my office. Our friendship has grown from going to the game together and having a mutal affection for Brandon Roy. He got to baptize him in June. His parents, however, are still hanging on. It's hard, though.

I don't know much about running businesses and franchises. But I do know that Brandon Roy means more to this city, and Blazer fans around the world, than merely playing 2-guard for the Blazers.

Please give him the fifth year.

30 recs  |  Comment 207 comments

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Comments

Display:

Rec this post up

B-roy represents everything that is good about this city

by lurtsman on Jul 15, 2009 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A men.

My favorite teams are the Blazers and any team that is playing the Lakers.

by OCBlazerFan1 on Jul 13, 2009 8:25 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It's amazing how God works.

Sometimes He even uses sports to work for His glory.

by tcwoods on Jul 13, 2009 8:26 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It is such a pleasure to root for a team with so many fine young men.

It is one of the reasons I am sold on KP. He is the guy who managed to assemble this amazing collection of talent and character.

I would rather loose with these guys, than win Championships with a bunch of thugs.

Don’t worry about Roy. He will get his extension. It is written.

by upper left corner on Jul 13, 2009 9:02 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

This is what everyone is so baffled over

This guy, Roy, is so perfect, he is so commited to the team to the franchise, more so than these other superstars like Wade, LeBron, Paul, etc.

So him some respect, you wont regret it… you will if you dont mend the fences

"Grayg"
-Nate

by OSUBlazerfan on Jul 13, 2009 9:29 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

+1 for cajones

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Jul 13, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed.

I don’t agree with jscots point but it took some cajones to say it.

"Everyone knows who you are; but only your friends know why."
- Rich Amato

by CoRBBall on Jul 13, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You don't?

So you’re completely fine with this post being used as a plea to sign Brandon to an extra year at 15 mil?

by Illmatic88 on Jul 13, 2009 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Look at the Message, not the Details

This isn’t someone using religion to compel the Blazers to a 5th year, it’s about the power of role models and the importance of having good people in the community for our children to look up to. I can’t even imagine what it must have been like to take kids to Jailblazers games, think of the questions they would have had to answer? Papa, what’s a gentleman’s club?

by ThaBlazerNater on Jul 14, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It has been theorized

that I do have them, but this post doesn’t prove it.

The worst that happens is some people on the Internet whom I shall never meet dislike me for saying it. Perhaps I shall survive if that happens.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 13, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The best thing that could happen is that it makes me like you more

And in the end, aren’t we all here to gain my satisfaction?

The Princess of Blazersedge

by Zaig on Jul 13, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The people you need to be mindful of ....

… are the ones on the internet who post about how like would like to lick aforementioned dangly things.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Jul 13, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I never assume you have a physical presence anyway,

since as far as I know, no one on this board can verify that you have one. You are bits and bytes that show up on this board. Theoretically, you may exist with physical properties. There is an ever small chance you do not, in theory. In theory, you could be an apparition that haunts the halls of Boleskine House on Loch Ness…

Physical cajones or not, I am totally down with your Greenie on all points you specified.

Another +1 .

"The match in Los Angeles is a good opportunity to begin to demonstrate that we want to make war." Rudy Fernández (translated)

by G_dubs on Jul 14, 2009 2:09 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I rec'd the article

but I tend to agree. Using ministry to lobby for paying a professional athlete 300x what my father makes as a pastor is a bit questionable.

I’m all for signing Brandon for five years, and I’m all for Christian ministry, but the two together leave a sour taste in my mouth.

by Illmatic88 on Jul 13, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

God loves Brandon Roy and hates Paul Allen/KP/the Blazer front office

Of course six days ago Paul Allen and KP were heroes. God is fickle.

Blazer Fan

by leeroyjenkins on Jul 13, 2009 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

rec

Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave

Also: COMCAST SUCKS!

by TwoDeep on Jul 15, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can definitely see both points here.

I don’t think either one is “wrong” it’s just a matter of perception.

I know less than half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

by haildablazer on Jul 13, 2009 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My response

First, I respect your opinion

Second, I think sports provides a good bridge for relationships. I have a friend who would have no relationship with his father if it weren’t for the San Francisco Giants. Brandon Roy served as a bridge whereby I could get to know a boy who needs help right now. I ddin’t mean to imply God wants Brandon Roy on the Blazers, I meant that I do.

by Petro4Three on Jul 13, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

The last sentence was a red herring.

I get what you are trying to say.

"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith

by blzrfan on Jul 13, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree about sports

But Brandon Roy wasn’t really the bridge here. The bridge was a person (you) reaching out to a kid. It could have been anything, the point was you cared enough.

If Brandon weren’t there, there would have been another bridge. There always is a bridge, for a pastor who wants to reach out to kids like this, unless the kids don’t actually want that, but usually they are hungry for someone to care enough to give, rather than for someone to want something from them.

Brandon is not the hero of your story. The hero is the person who took the kids to the game. If the Blazers/Brandon encourage that kind of environment, good for them, but that doesn’t make them the heroes.

I would have felt almost the same about your post even without the last sentence. The story is not about Brandon. It is a story about a pastor reaching out to a kid. Incidentally, Brandon and the Blazers were an opportunity he could use to do that.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 13, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

I see your angle

When I work with troubled youth, it’s great to have something positive to share whether it be a hobby or sport or whatever. Kids I work with love video games, for instance, but not all video games are suitable for 4th graders. When I can find something positive that we can bond over, I just want to hold onto it. Anyway, that was my angle, nothing more.

by Petro4Three on Jul 13, 2009 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I am with Jscot on this.

I spent my afternoon doing remedial math tutoring with a local kid,I have been doing this for years and sometimes I get paid sometimes I dont but I do it any way.I get it about needing some common ground with kids who are having problems when your trying to help them,Brandon is a great role model but the idea that he has to ring every last mil out of PA in order to"take care"of his family does not set well with me. I hope you can get trough to your kids that there are lots of miserable rich people,its way more important to be happy which includes being a productive member of society.

by southern oregon on Jul 13, 2009 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you misread the fanpost.

That last sentence was innocuous. I didn’t interpret the fanpost to be an argument for extending Roy’s contract. It was a personal anecdotal story.

"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith

by blzrfan on Jul 13, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was my interpretation as well.

Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave

Also: COMCAST SUCKS!

by TwoDeep on Jul 15, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

jscot

You are the man. I agree with everything you said, and I also believe that the whole world should be familiar with Excel. It would be one huge step towards solving our economic problems!

"Life is a meaningless sequence of events in between Blazer championships"

by broggerboy19 on Jul 13, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My hero.

"Aneurysm".

When Outlaw wins a game on a last-second shot, it’s called an "annthefaneurysm". QualityPie

by annthefan on Jul 13, 2009 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What's new?

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 13, 2009 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still, I'll never use Excel again, even for you.

"Aneurysm".

When Outlaw wins a game on a last-second shot, it’s called an "annthefaneurysm". QualityPie

by annthefan on Jul 14, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's ok

In my world, there’s room for mindless but attractive females.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 14, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In your world,

you depend on Excel to tell you when to perform any and all of your bodily functions and what your every action and thought will be. I’m becoming worried that you’ve got faulty information in some of your cells. In fact, I’m becoming more and more suspicious that you’re nothing more than an animated spreadsheet. Oh exalted ruler.

"Aneurysm".

When Outlaw wins a game on a last-second shot, it’s called an "annthefaneurysm". QualityPie

by annthefan on Jul 14, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"I’m becoming worried that you’ve got faulty information in some of your cells"

Nevertheless, my logic is impeccable. Somebody said so.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 14, 2009 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Impeccable imschmeccable.

Your intellectual acuity and rude erudition will get you nowhere!

"Aneurysm".

When Outlaw wins a game on a last-second shot, it’s called an "annthefaneurysm". QualityPie

by annthefan on Jul 15, 2009 1:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Being smart and rude always gets you far in life

“You’re fired!”

The Princess of Blazersedge

by Zaig on Jul 15, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Best post I've read in a long time..

jscot is consistently making people think with very well laid out positions and an earnest desire to promote discussion. I’m relieved his insights received much more acclaim than the pastor’s misguided sentiments.

we need more rational thought and less praying

My favorite comment is when athletes say its God who helped them get 20 rebounds and win a game as if a deity would watch sports and take sides!!! Does that mean God also caused your boneheaded pass or your missed free throws?? Why not blame god for that as well…….why not? cuz the whole thing is sooo illogical.

TP FOR 3

by WhereInTheWorldIsDontonioWingfield on Jul 13, 2009 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hear you

I have a “devout” nephew who thinks that praying for a new roof will stop the leaks

by southern oregon on Jul 13, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, now

I would never say we need more rational thought and less praying. I would say we need more of both, and that they are by no means inconsistent.

One who prays and thinks rationally would of course recognize that God does not exist to give me what I want. If He is God, He won’t be giving everybody what they want, because of course, “what I want” may very well conflict with “what the next guy wants”. It is one thing to ask God for something, it is quite another to automatically assume He will do it without question just because I asked.

An athlete who thanks God for giving him the ability to perform well is being entirely rational. An athlete who claims God gave him a victory is indeed being illogical, as you have pointed out.

Faith and logic are not enemies. Faith and non-faith are simply differing presuppositions. Both can have logic applied to them.

Both people of faith and people of non-faith commit many horrible logical atrocities. There is plenty of illogic to go around, no matter which presumption you accept.

But I suppose if I take this any further, some mod will tell me to get back on topic, so I’ll stop there.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 13, 2009 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

But I suppose if I take this any further, some mod will tell me to get back on topic, so I’ll stop there.

I disagree. TDarkstar would probably be intrigued and join the conversation.

draft the stache

by Cablinasian on Jul 14, 2009 12:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good explanation of your position

I try to think rationally and my faith has nothing to do with rational – it just is. I do not wish to judge others for their beliefs. My view is It is the judging that becomes the problem between rational and faith. So I nod and feel heart-warmed without the startling finish and choose to simply ignore that part.

Role models do exist from all walks of life. I see nothing wrong with using a positive role model (Brandon) as a catalyst to draw this young man into a positive relationship. It is much harder (in my experience) than it looks. And not easy to be so vulnerable to us here.

by lee3022 on Jul 14, 2009 1:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"An athlete who thanks God for giving him the ability to perform well is being entirely rational"

He is not being rational in the least, as the notion that God gave him his ability rests upon the assumption of the existence of God, an assumption which cannot be rationally defended as true. Therefore, he is in fact being irrational.

by Terminator X on Jul 14, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

this conversation only works if we don’t go in this direction.

Just sayin’…

...refusing Coolio's sloppy seconds since 2001...

by TheTinfoil on Jul 14, 2009 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with your position

however, challenging someone’s faith is like telling a Jacko defender that he’s a child molester. All the evidence in the world won’t change their mind. Usually they’ll just swear at you. religion is like that, and I don’t want anyone to get banned.

NOTE: I am not comparing religion to child molestation. Maybe I should find a. better analogy….

...refusing Coolio's sloppy seconds since 2001...

by TheTinfoil on Jul 14, 2009 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Got it!

Challenging someone’s faith is like trying to convince a movie nerd that Mulholland Drive sucked. No matter what the truth really is, homeboy ain’t changing his mind.

...refusing Coolio's sloppy seconds since 2001...

by TheTinfoil on Jul 14, 2009 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No matter what the truth really is

I won’t swear at someone for challenging my faith. A Christian who does that isn’t much of a Christian, and I doubt you’ve really encountered many who would do that.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 14, 2009 11:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I 100% disagree with you.

Beyond Anabaptist denominations like the Amish, Hutterites, Mennonites, et al., most so-called Christians are of the cafeteria variety. Furthermore, these pick-‘n’-choose Protestant “Christians” proselytize their version Christianity that proclaims יַהְוֶה as its deity to people in many so-called sinful ways.

Stupid people have stupid ideas.

by AK1984 on Jul 15, 2009 1:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll proclaim my diety to you in a sinful way.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 1:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A "diety" sounds like a tight way to lose some unwanted pounds.

Unfortunately, though, I’m a tall and thin guy who should gain weight.

Stupid people have stupid ideas.

by AK1984 on Jul 15, 2009 2:00 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Drink a higher calorie beer.

(sorry about the misspelling!)

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 2:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm drinking Henry Weinhard's Summer Ale ...

at this moment, so that should help do the trick.

Stupid people have stupid ideas.

by AK1984 on Jul 15, 2009 2:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not challenging anyone's faith. I don't care what people believe in, no matter how ridiculous it is.

But as I explained below, one must acknowledge that their faith is non-rational, or they become irrational. I thought that was one of the foundations of faith, that it doesn’t require any rational backing or justification, one must simply believe. As long as people acknowledge that they simply believe in God/Shiva/the Dharma/Allah/Thetans/Zeus/Ra/The Force/Yahweh/Nirvana/Unicorns/Santa/The Flying Spaghetti Monster/whatever and [b]that that belief falls outside the bounds of reason[/b], and is thus non-rational, that’s fine. You can believe whatever you want. But anyone who tries to defend their beliefs through the channels of reason and logic is being irrational.

If beliefs could be proven with logic they would cease to be beliefs.

by Terminator X on Jul 14, 2009 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This shows a misunderstanding of faith
I thought that was one of the foundations of faith, that it doesn’t require any rational backing or justification, one must simply believe.

The Christian faith is built on a fact, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Paul wrote that if Jesus did not rise, our faith is useless. He cited many witnesses to support the truth of the fact. Faith is not built on a mindless leap (whatever Kierkegard said) — there were always appeals to evidence.

Faith could perhaps be described as hiking through the wilderness with a guide. He tells you he’s gone this way before, and he describes the journey to you in advance. He shows you pictures of the waterfall you are trying to reach, including one with him standing in front of it. You know it might be photo-shopped, but it gives you some reasonable confidence that he’s actually been there.

As you go along, he frequently tells you what is around the next bend, and it pans out. Sometimes you are surprised, because he didn’t tell you in advance, but still, the evidence is mounting that this guy has some clue of what he’s doing.

Now, you come to a crevice, and he tells you, “We have to jump this to get to the waterfall.” It’s about 8 feet wide, it’s deep, and you are afraid of heights. He jumps across, holds out his hand to you, and says, “Come on, we’re almost there.”

Do you trust him or not? A rational person might say, “Look, I just don’t have enough evidence to make that jump. I might trip as I’m starting to jump. All kinds of bad things might happen. Instead of grabbing my hand, he might push me over the edge. I’m going back.”

A rational person might say, “I have enough evidence. Here I come!”

A faith with no rational backing at all insults people when it asks them to believe. You would not be insulted when the guide asks you to jump the crevice. You might not do it, but you wouldn’t be insulted. If you don’t understand the rational appeal to faith, you aren’t really prepared to discuss this, because you don’t understand where people of faith are coming from.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 14, 2009 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

I know I shouldn't interject

How can anyone say the resurrection of Jesus Christ is a fact? The empty tomb story from the bible is pretty flimsy. Mary and others walked up to an open tomb and the guy in there said that Jesus rose from the dead. No one checked his credentials, no one interrogated the guards, and the Gospels were written half a century after the death of Jesus. I don’t mean to question anyone’s faith, but I don’t think we can say the resurrection is a fact.

"B Roy, ain't no basketball player really ever make me cry, makes me wanna meet you, touch your hand." tominhawaii

by tominhawaii on Jul 15, 2009 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not my point

My point is that it is built on a fact. Disprove the fact and the whole cookie crumbles.

Therefore, there is a rational component to the Christian faith, because the evidence for that fact can be assessed rationally. Paul was not making a non-rational appeal when he named witnesses who were still alive. That was an appeal to rationality — “Go talk to them if you want to and find out.”

You may not find the evidence compelling, but those who said they had seen him apparently did. Either they were insane or they chose to live (and die for) something they knew was a lie. Or else they really did see him alive.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Built on fact...

Eye witness testimony isn’t really fact. More people have “witnessed” the Loch Ness Monster than the ressurection of Christ. Does that mean Nessy is fact?

It was also “fact” that the world was flat, that the Sun revolved around the Earth, and so on. Millions of witnesses would tell you the same too because clearly the sun was moving, not us.

It’s pretty tough to trust historical writing. There was generally no fact checking, sources, and so on. The only old book that can be proven to be completely awesome is “The Art of War.”

The Princess of Blazersedge

by Zaig on Jul 15, 2009 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Again, you miss my point

And yet, both you and Tom make my point admirably. For you are addressing the question of the resurrection on a rational basis, are you not?

The Christian faith is based in part on that which can be assessed rationally. It is not just a blind leap. You may reject the evidence as insufficient, inconclusive, or dubious. Others have made different assessments of it.

But faith is not wholly a non-rational decision, as Terminator X suggested.

The only monsters I’ve seen on Loch Ness were American tourists….

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand your point

I’m just on the “don’t find the evidence compelling” side of things because umm… it’s not really compelling at all. It’s actually pretty standard with how conclusions were made in those days.
“He is missing from grave, thus he got up and left.”
“Object A is heavier than object B, thus it falls faster.”
“We see the sun move and we don’t feel ourselves moving, thus the sun moves around the Earth.”
“She predicted a storm, thus she is a witch.”

I agree that faith isn’t totally a non-rational decision, I just feel that almost all rational back then was pretty awful and that living by those rationals is a bit odd.

The Princess of Blazersedge

by Zaig on Jul 15, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You ought to read Paul's letter to the Romans

It is an outstanding example of logic. You might disagree with the conclusions, but that would be because you disagree with the starting premises. The logic is exceptional.

Why should you read it? Perhaps because you would find that you are selling “rational back then” a little bit short.

Lots of the Greeks were very precise in their thinking and logic, and due to Alexander the Great’s conquests, that influence was very strong throughout the Mediterranean area.

Paul was no superstitious fool. You might argue that some of the others were likely to be, but you read his writings, and he always develops his points very logically.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey now, I said almost all

There were some good thinkers, even back then, but for the most part, people were pretty dumb, gullible, superstitious, and so on.

The Princess of Blazersedge

by Zaig on Jul 15, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Have you ever read "Against the Gods"

It is a history of risk management and how that (statistics) changed the way the average person views their life.

I recommend it.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I will do this once, and only once

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Faith – Firm belief in something of which there is no truth

If we’re going with dictionaries as the definitive source of what word’s mean, as you would seem to imply below, then what do you say to that?

The resurrection of Jesus Christ is in no way shape or form a fact. I know I’m repeating tominhawaii, but what proof is there of it? Eyewitnesses? I shouldn’t have to tell anyone that eyewitness testimony, especially in an age where people were incredibly uneducated/superstitious/etc, isn’t terribly reliable. They could have been liars, they could have been tricked, they could have been hallucinating, on drugs (intentionally or unintentionally), extreme religious zealots who would say anything to make themselves appear correct, etc. If you are saying that Jesus’s resurrection is a truthful fact, then what about other religions? Nearly every religion has it’s own set of eyewitness “facts” that support it. Do you believe in the miracles of Gautama Buddha? Of the Propeht Muhammed? Do you believe in the loch ness monster, or alien abductions? They all have accounts of vigilant, absolutely-convinced eyewitnesses.

Either they were insane or they chose to live (and die for) something they knew was a lie. Or else they really did get abducted by aliens/see a dinosaur in a lake/watch Buddha walk on water/etc. These things all have similar pools of (wholly unreliable) “evidence” supporting them, yet some people see fit to believe one to be true while discounting the others*. That is entirely irrational – if you have two things with equal evidence, and you accept one and deny the other, you are being irrational. That is what anyone who attempts to make a “rational” appeal to their faith is doing. Accepting one flimsily supported theory while rejecting hundreds of other equally flimsily supported theories. You can’t pick and chose your facts.

*Of course the whole “False Prophet” thing explains the miracles of Buddha from a Christian perspective, but

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dictionaries
Faith – Firm belief in something of which there is no truth

What do I say to that? That a) you didn’t quote it accurately, and b) that is definition 2)b)1).

In other words, it is not the primary definition even in matters of religion.

Second, the definition you misquoted is:

firm belief in something for which there is no proof

There is a difference between “proof” and “truth”. There is also a difference between “proof” and “evidence”. There can be abundant evidence without there being proof. Evidence can be assessed rationally, and probable conclusions can be drawn even without proof. If there is insufficient evidence to provide proof, that is where faith comes into play.

You have faith that when you turn on the light switch, there will be light. You can’t prove that there will be, there is insufficient evidence — the power might go off, the light might be burned out, there might be a fault in the wiring. Yet, you fully expect that light to come on, and are surprised if it doesn’t.

Your faith is based on experience and, if you bother to think it through, a rational evaluation of the evidence available to you, but it isn’t based on proof. You do not have enough evidence to have proof — you haven’t (generally) checked the filament to see if it is not burned out, nor have you checked the wiring in the wall in the last couple of minutes. But you still expect the thing to come on — without proof. Is that non-rational?

I would say that it is not. It is based on evidence providing strong probabilities. It is unlikely that the wiring has gone bad since the last time the light was turned on. It is unlikely that the power has gone off without you knowing about it. It is unlikely that the light has burned out without you knowing about it.

It is rational to expect the light to come on, even though you cannot prove it will.

As to the fact of the resurrection, since you read Tom’s comment, I’m assuming you read my response explaining my point, and my further discussion with Zaig, just above this. If so, you might engage with my point, which you have proved as certainly as they did with your response — you have engaged the question of the resurrection on a rational basis.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL at "freudian"

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"In other words, it is not the primary definition even in matters of religion."

But it is the only one which mentions proof or evidence, thereby making it the only relevent one to the discussion.

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, no

This is not logical. That faith is sometimes used to imply “no proof” (and thus is defined accordingly as one possible definition) in no way indicates that it always means “no proof”.

Nevertheless, I accept the “no proof” definition of faith, as long as the logical error is avoided of assuming “no proof” equals “no evidence”.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ummmmmmm. No.
The Christian faith is built on a fact, the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

One PRIMARY ASPECT OF CHRISTIAN FAITH is a belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Jul 15, 2009 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then why did Paul try to convince people through logic that Jesus arose from the dead?

Several of the stories in the gospel have to do with verifying his resurrection. I have faith because he was resurrected, not the other way around.

But maybe that is just me.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Besides, one could argue (quite succesfully)

that the assertion that God is, in fact, real, is a far more faith-challenging claim than my assertion that belief is non-rational and God cannot be proven to exist or not exist. By claiming that the Islamo-Judeo-Christian is real, one is telling all the other belief systems (both theistic, non-theistic, atheistic, and agnostic) that they are, in fact, completely wrong. Seems to me that would “challenge” more people’s faith than the assertion “we don’t know who is right, it could be anyone, but as such we can’t logically assume any of the belief systems to be true” does.

by Terminator X on Jul 14, 2009 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, we need a junk drawer on this where we have some clear boundries of debate.

Or it will become a incoherent mash of personal diatribes against the things each of us hate or misunderstand.

We are all misguided missionaries for our beliefs.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 14, 2009 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rational thought?

""He is not being rational in the least, as the notion that God gave him his ability rests upon the assumption of the existence of God, an assumption which cannot be rationally defended as true. ""

This statement is contradictory. This person is claiming that a statement is irrational do to the inability to rationally defend the existence of God. By making this statement, this person would have to explain our exist on the ‘big bang’ theory. A theory, that even the top scientists are unable to explain. They note it as something “magical” happening. This persons ‘rational’ thought is that he exists because, from NOTHING, particles were formed. Do some research for me and let me know if a scientist has even been able to create something out of completely NOTHING. You believe that something can come from nothing, I’ll continue to believe in a benevolent God

Rational thought against something, would imply a rational thought for something else.

by herricks28 on Jul 16, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

For reference, Terminator X isn't saying he believes in the Big Bang Theory

He line of argument is saying things like the Big Bang Theory and God cannot be defended as known facts. Therefore to attribute things to them is opening oneself up to being wrong.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 16, 2009 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Faith and logic are not enemies. Faith and non-faith are simply differing presuppositions. Both can have logic applied to them."

I disagree. Yes, they are simply differeing presuppositions, but the difference is that faith is a non-rational* presupposition, and non-faith is a rational pre-supposition. Agnosticism (non-faith) is the only rational presupposition, as even atheists have to have faith in their idea of the big bang and all that. Simply admitting that we do not know is the only rational stance.

*For my purposes here, non-rational =/= irrational. Non-rationality means that a thing falls outside the realm of reason and logic, and an attempt to use reason or logic to defend it is misguided. Irrationality is when a thing defines itself as within the bounds of reason and logic, but either contradicts or fails to be rational and logical. To use a popular analogy, if I believe that the world was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster and concede that this can neither be rationally proven nor disproven and that I believe it solely because I “just do”, then I am being non-rational. If I were to claim that my belief in the FSM is in fact based in logic and rationality and attempt to justify it using said logic I am being irrational because such a thing cannot be proven by logic.

by Terminator X on Jul 14, 2009 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I will do this once, and once only

Cambridge Dictionary Online

Rational:

showing clear thought or reason

Rationally:

in a way based on reason rather than emotions

You are misusing this word. Logic does not dictate presuppositions. Logic/rationality is applied to presuppositions to draw conclusions therefrom.

The person who has a presupposition that God exists applies logic to that presupposition and comes to the conclusion that God gave him his abilities. This is a reasonable conclusion given that presupposition. He is therefore being rational when He thanks God for those abilities.

The person who says, “God helped us win” is not being rational even under his own presupposition. It logically fails, even if God exists.

No presuppositions can be fully defended rationally. Yours can’t either. Logically, yours fails because it operates on some dubious assumptions: 1) Lack of complete evidence means there can be no rational conclusions drawn. 2) You personally have enough knowledge of the evidence which other people have to know that they are being non-rational in their conclusions.

Now, you may be right in your statement that “admitting we do not know is the only rational stance”. But it is (by your definition) not rational to make that statement, because you may not have all the evidence that others have, and also because it operates on the faulty assumption that no one can make rational conclusions based on partial evidence. Nevertheless, based on your presuppositions, this is a logical statement to make. You are not being non-rational, you are just operating on unprovable assumptions, just like everyone else.

Both the atheist and the believer have evidence which appears to support their views of the origins of the universe and of life. As a believer, I do not charge the atheist with being non-rational. His conclusions are wrong not because of faulty logic, but because of a wrong presumption. If his logic is perfect, he will still come to wrong conclusions.

Just one comment about the FSM. If you believe in the FSM, you would be right to say it is solely because I “just do”. This is not really relevant to the discussion, however. There are more reasons to believe in God than “I just do.” You may not find those reasons compelling, of course. Finer minds than you or I have accepted those reasons. Finer minds than you or I have rejected them. Ultimately, it does come down to a decision as to whether those reasons are compelling, but that is not the same as saying, “I just do believe.” Many people have made a rational assessment of the evidence on both sides, and found one side or the other more compelling — compelling enough to conclude that one side is in fact true.

These competing presuppositions cannot be proven rationally, but they can be partially assessed on the level of rationality. The FSM cannot.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 14, 2009 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ever study logic?

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes I have.

And you didn’t answer my question. Why shouldn’t logic dictate our pre-suppositions and assumptions about the world?

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A presupposition

is (to use your dictionary) an antecedent in logic or fact.

By definition, presuppositions are the things on which logic works.

You can discard presuppositions if logical derivatives of those presuppositions are demonstrably false. Thus, logic can be used to evaluate and discard presuppositions, but it cannot be used to dictate what the presuppositions should be.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"No presuppositions can be fully defended rationally....

…Yours can’t either. Logically, yours fails because it operates on some dubious assumptions: 1) Lack of complete evidence means there can be no rational conclusions drawn. 2) You personally have enough knowledge of the evidence which other people have to know that they are being non-rational in their conclusions."

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction
2) What is the evidence for belief in God that I am unaware of? I also feel that this is an appropriate time to note that I am just about the largest skeptic you will ever meet who isn’t clinically paranoid. I, logically, am forced to doubt everything short of my existence – and I’m not even sure of the exact terms of that existence – in traditional terms, I refer to the Great Deceiver argument. In popular terms, I refer to the “What if we’re in the Matrix?” argument. Thus, even if God were to appear before me and a hundred others and speak to us directly, I would still not find that to be enough evidence to believe in him. Our senses cannot be completely trusted. They are merely interpreting the world around us and translating it into neural impulses. I’m hesitant to subscribe fully to the Kantian noumenal/phenomenal world view, but that’s the general theory I subscribe to. Our senses can be deceived.

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK, now I see where you are coming from
Thus, even if God were to appear before me and a hundred others and speak to us directly, I would still not find that to be enough evidence to believe in him. Our senses cannot be completely trusted.

You don’t accept that I exist, then, or if you do it is by faith. I doubt you accept that Brandon Roy exists, or the pastor who started this thread, or Dave Deckard, really. And yet, you are acting as if these people do exist, or you would not be on this site and talking to me. Since you do not believe there is proof to justify such action, you are acting on faith.

I would just say that A) most people don’t think you are being rational B) I don’t know why you are concerned about questions of whether God exists or the resurrection happened, since you don’t really know anything rationally except that you can’t know anything C) this philosophy is not likely to lead to a very happy life for you, unfortunately, and D) we are unlikely to reach a meeting of the minds on anything, but I thank you for the discussion.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

I could see this coming about five posts ago.

There is no reason for any of our presuppositions. We have to start, blind and deaf, somewhere. One of my most basic presupposition is that my sensory information is generally real. Whatever real means…

From there it is just a matter of whether anything has any meaning at all. Everything could be irrelevant, but there is one pathway that just might have a purpose. That is probably why most people accept it and even find it difficult to question such a core thought.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think a lot of people question

but eventually retreat from those questions because they see where it is going.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe it isn't fear

Maybe they recognize that the logical conclusions are untenable.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

Again we go back to presuppositions. Untenable logical conclusions (assuming logic is sound) simply demonstrate the fallacy of the presuppositions.

So you stop questioning certain things because to do so logically leads to that which you know to be untrue.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll assume you meant "valid" instead of "sound".

And keep in mind that I do not know anything “to be untrue”.

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but we're not talking about you

And yes, you could sub in “valid”. I tend to use them interchangeably in conversation, but you are right that “valid” is better.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alright back up a second.

“That is probably why most people accept it and even find it difficult to question such a core thought.”
What exactly is the core thought we’re discussing here? I assumed it was the type of metaphysical questioning of things that leads to the logical extreme of agnosticism, but perhaps I’ve gotten my sub-threads mixed up.

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

staylost said

“One of my most basic presupposition is that my sensory information is generally real. "

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it is fear.

I think it is uselessness.

Either the reality we share is real, or there is no meaning at all in anything, and therefore, no reason to exist.

There is no proof that the reality in front of you exists. But we all act as if it does, because if it does, our lives have a purpose and then we have a reason to exist.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why does one need a reason to exist to enjoy existance?

I act as if “it” (reality/stuff around me/whatever) exists not so that my life can have a purpose but so that I can enjoy these things that my senses perceive as real to their fullest extent.

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But you just declared purpose, a reason to exist, in your counterpoint.

Sensory enjoyment is certainly a purpose. This seem to come back to needed some sort of meaning for your life to have purpose again. Apparently this is all ‘real’ enough for you to have found a meaning. The purpose of your life is to enjoy it. I don’t actually see a difference between this idea and my point.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ultimately, he doesn't and can't

live out his philosophy, it becomes self-contradictory.

Good catch.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting point.

I had always viewed the “life having purpose” statement to refer to a universal and teleological purpose (be a good Christian and get into heaven, be a good Hindu and be re-incarnated favorably, etc). I have no problem with self-perscribed life purposes, which is generally the path of the atheist/agnostic (“There’s no afterlife/we can’t be sure of the afterlife, so why not just enjoy this life to the fullest?”).

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And so we all wallow, one way or another, into accepting our shared existence.

Using the self-limiting arguments that we cannot find meaning outside of it, or that we wouldn’t even have the ability to act outside of it even if we believed it untrue.

We accept this shared reality because we have no choice. That shared reality is interpreted through our senses and processed by our minds.

The gets us, together as one, at least to the point of agreeing that our senses are real (but can be deceived, you are right), and our minds are real.

Suddenly trees are real and the air is real, etc.

Perhaps it seems a sad way to start, being forced and all. But it isn’t like any reality we could imagine wouldn’t have to start with these same presuppositions.

Do we agree at least to here?

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My brain's getting a little fried and I'm not sure I'm following you 100%

But I think more or less we agree, however I think I’m a tad more skeptical. Replace “agreeing that our senses are real” with “agreeing to believe in the idea that our senses are real”. Also throw the caveat in there that I’m not 100% convinced that there is even anyone to “share” this “reality” with, but believe that there is.

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah. We agree on this point as much as people really can, I think.

You just want to make sure you remember that you never found proof that this existence is real, you were just sort of stuck in it. At least that is how I interpret what you are saying.

The point is to get to this starting point so that we can all argue from some shared rational starting point. Without that, we are all just wasting our time here.

From there we can learn about any God through our senses and minds. We can reasonably choose to accept something without proof as being true or not.

From there we can quickly jump out and see how the OP’s view is very clear. He wants to reward the bridge that helped him reach the kid. Jscot says the bridge is not worthy of honor in this case and that we should honor the OP instead, for crossing it.

Either way, whether the kid should follow hedonism or Christianity, he’s better off with successful role models.

Either way, I appreciate the discussion you have created. I think it is always worthwhile to me to learn or remember like this. Give your brain a break from questioning its reality for a bit if you need. I know I need to get off of here and go do some errands.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

But a quick comment. The OP did not wish to reward Roy for what he means to the kid, he wishes Roy to stay here for as long as possible for the benefit of the kid and others like him.

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm...

Isn’t that why the OP wants Roy rewarded. Assuming giving Roy whatever cash/contract he wants a reward for staying. Yes, the reward appears to be just a means to an end, you are correct.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Allow to elaborate a little if I can.

I do not believe that life has a purpose in the sense that people talk about it like “I’ve finally found my life’s purpose! I was made to play basketball, I just know it, it’s why I’m here! I was put here for a reason, and that reason is basketball! After all this searching, I’ve finally found my soul’s one absolute, undeniable calling!”

What I am saying is that I believe I came to be as a matter of chance, and that there is nothing in particular that I was “put here” to do. It’s almost the difference between “everything happens for a reason” and “everything happens because of a cause”. I do not believe in an ethereal idealogical purpose to life that is absolute and unchanging, but I believe that one can prescribe a purpose to one’s own life.

I say “well, I’m here, might as well enjoy it”, which is definitely different from “I was put here to enjoy life”.

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I totally disagree with most of what you conclude, but I like the way you don’t get emotional and negative toward those of us with a different philosophy. I wish more agnostics were like you.

I think that saying “I’m here, I might as well enjoy it” ends up creating selfishness which in the end is not fulfilling. Living for others (Christ, your family, friends, even enemies, etc) is much more fulfilling long-term. And it’s easier to live for others when you believe in Christ who is the perfect example of how to live for others.

"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder

by jamon51 on Jul 15, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh now don't misconstrue my calm-manner for a lack of emotion.

I’ve just learned to hide it when need be for the sake of discussion. Truthfully I fall in the “Religion is the opiate of the masses” camp and at times do find myself absolutely infuriated by the (what I consider to be) unquestioningly blind ignorance many (not all) religious people show. While I would love to “convert” people to agnosticism, in a practical manner I realize that getting up on a soapbox and ranting about how people are ignorant sheep and their God isn’t real is only going to alienate people. Most people don’t like being told they’re wrong, whether they are or not. Rather, I prefer a more civil approach, as people tend to take you more seriously that way and are more likely to try to make a genuine attempt to understand your view. All I am trying to do is what philosophers have been trying to do for thousands of years – encourage people to question everything, even their most core, fundamental beliefs. I believe that if they’re truly honest with themselves they’ll find the only logical conclusion is agnosticism. But that’s up to them to arrive at that conclusion, I can force views upon no one.

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What's the point, though?

If you convert everyone to agnosticism you’ve accomplished nothing. The world is not better off; I would argue that it opens the door for all kinds of negative things when you believe that there is nothing to live for other than your own selfish desires.

On the other hand, by converting people to Christianity we are not only improving their fulfillment but also hopefully increasing their desire to live for others. Society is better off as a whole.

I’ve never understood the negative view toward Christians. Only by focusing on the ones who use it for their own gain, probably. True Christianity doesn’t do that.

"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder

by jamon51 on Jul 15, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What do all of the following have in common?

The KKK
Al-Quada
The Spanish Inquisition
The Nazis
The modern-day Neo-Cons
The Crusades
Hezbollah
The Thirty Years War
The Muslim Conquests
The Sudanese Civil Wars
Genocide in Rwanda

They were all religiously-fueled groups/wars/genocides that took the lives of such an obscene amount of people that neither you nor I can come close to comprehending. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. You really think the world is “better off” with religion?

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

*Al-Qaeda

I always mess that up

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And yet none of them beat those against all religion .

Mao Tse-tung or Stalin are thought to be the champions of death dealing bar none. Pol Pot is one of the most disturbing perpetrators of genocide. Since the belief that God is not a part of our lives came into vogue, the non-religiously fueled crimes have done a good job of showing that rejecting God doesn’t change who we are one bit.

As a side note, most of both of my examples and yours were primarily permitted by cultural racism.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which team are you giving Hitler to???

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Jul 15, 2009 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Nazis were religiously fueled?

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They certainly are today..

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Jul 15, 2009 11:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's say they wanted to be the new religion, with some influence from Norse mythology

They were not terribly high on any other religion.

If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar

by Norsktroll on Jul 16, 2009 1:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The funny thing is that I would flip the Socrates comment on you now.

Hedonism and egoism become the happy pig and searching for something, some meaning beyond that, becomes the philosopher.

I think you are correct that hedonism and egoism may be some of the only ways of life that have the proof you are looking for. They are just so dissatisfying to me. I’ll keep dancing with faith and reason, trying to reach for something more. Even if it turns out there was nothing to reach for anyway.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hedonism does not strictly mean drugs, sex, and rock and roll.

It means whatever makes you happy. I find both temporary in-the-moment happiness in the drugs/sex/rock and roll category AND long-term sustainable happiness through intellectual thought and discussion. Hedonism is whatever you enjoy – if you enjoy going to church and get a good buzz from giving a cheeseburger to a homeless man, that could be construed as hedonism (dependent upon motivation).

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree with your definition.

Because everyone just does whatever makes them happy by this train of thought. This in turn makes the word ‘hedonism’ meaningless. We are all hedonists then.

Hedonism, to me, is the enjoyment of short term sensory pleasures. We can happily disagree about the semantics here.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, now you've roughly got it.

I, for the most part in daily life, have faith in my senses. While I do not trust them completely and will always doubt and question them when I actually sit down and think about it, for the most part I operate my day-to-day activities just as most other sane people. Hence the “as much a skeptic without being clinically paranoid” remark. Extreme skepticism will mentally paralyze a person. I have no interest in going down that road, and hope I never do.

A) Most people wouldn’t know rationality if it hit them in the head with a frying pan. I’m not concerned with what most people think.
B) I’m concerned with it because it provides for a good intellectual discussion (when in the right company)
C) Maybe, maybe not. I find it at times to be a burdensome philosophy, but as the old saying goes “Better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied”. I think I’ll be fine, as the perk is that this view opens up hedonism and egoism as completely acceptable stances ;)
D) I thank you for the discussion as well

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, this "pig" will tell Socrates

that hedonism and egoism don’t really satisfy for very long.

But all the best to you.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do tell.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were the pig/fool.

The quote just came to mind and seemed relevant. And no doubt hedonism and egoism don’t satisfy forever, but coupled with true contemplative intellectual thought and a certain inner peace and one should be fine. Besides, I’m young, I have no doubt that in a year’s time my ideas will have evolved substantially anyways.

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL, I was joking

You gave me an opportunity to claim the title, so I did.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

jscot just confirmed it, but it didn't seem like you called him a pig at all.

He just played you debate style. Clever, but not particularly illuminating.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have a hunch that this is where

atheism always ends up if followed to its logical conclusion.

"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder

by jamon51 on Jul 15, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agnosticism

to be more precise.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

That’s what I meant…sorry!

"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder

by jamon51 on Jul 15, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A lot of agnostics are fanatical, too

So are Clipper fans, but that one is not rational.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Nice touch with the clippers.

Almost forgot this was a basketball blog. Rec.

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I almost went after Chicago

since the Blog-a-Bull guy has been around some, but he would agree with me if I did, so I decided not to give him the satisfaction.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In practice

it ends up the same (life based on an assumption that there is no God that must be considered in our decisions and actions), but in theory it is quite different.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not difficult

to see the natural benefits of being a Christian. One who doesn’t just give it lip service. It’s not a blanket statement—no Christian is perfect, and there are some really quality people who aren’t Christians, but just as a general rule.

I don’t know if this pertains to the discussion but what you said made me think of that.

"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder

by jamon51 on Jul 15, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've never known a Christian

at the end of their life who said, “I wish I hadn’t been so committed a Christian.”

I’ve known Christians who wished they had been more committed to their faith, and lots of non-Christians who wished they had some kind of faith.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why are you hanging out with so many folks at the end of their life?

I’ve already made arrangements with some Mormons to Baptize me after death so that I have all bases covered.

by tominhawaii on Jul 15, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

You don’t have all bases covered unless you have Baptists to Mormonize you, too.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm Catholic

I’ve been saved in at least a half dozen different churches, and I joined the Church of Satan. My only real fear is if Satan finds out if I get my last rights and I don’t quite make it into heaven for my behavior on Blazers Edge.

by tominhawaii on Jul 15, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is there a way to block God's IP from BlazersEdge?

Dave, look into it.

"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder

by jamon51 on Jul 15, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought that was a good thing

I guess I’d better go re-read the rules.

"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder

by jamon51 on Jul 15, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I suspect

that your behavior on Bedge is not the only thing that might get you in trouble.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I forgot
For my purposes here, non-rational =/= irrational

A few posts above, you said:

Therefore, he is in fact being irrational.

I’m trying to figure out if you were being irrational or non-rational when you contradicted yourself there. :)

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 14, 2009 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I apologise.

I didn’t expect this to get into a great big discussion (sort of expected this thread/sub-thread to get nuke), I wrote that without putting much thought into it. Replace “irrational” with “non-rational”. Either way, he is still not being rational.

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No problem

After your second statement, it was clear what you meant. I just found it humorous, and was joking. Sorry if that didn’t come across clearly.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No you're fine.

Just felt like clarifying anyways.

by Terminator X on Jul 15, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like the $1750

I give to the Blazers each year?

by BOSAKI on Jul 13, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We can do half of it

Get the 50,000 WoW players in Oregon to use their 13 dollars a month on a B-Roy fund instead of WoW. This gives us 7.8 million dollars a year towards Roy. The team can cover the rest.

The Princess of Blazersedge

by Zaig on Jul 13, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Brandon can get God to stop allowing children to get hungry and get cancer...

I’ll be petitioning to get him that 5th year as well.

Darius Miles Tribute Vid
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.

by Net Ranger on Jul 13, 2009 10:25 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Do you support Brandon Roy as the "righteous hero" role model?

Or is it something else?

The reason the hero/role model idea works well with what this pastor is saying, is because of who Brandon Roy is: Loyal, courageous, humble, and high achieving. Kind of like David, in a way.

Seeing that someone can survive hard times and remain morally upright can be a strong witness to people that they can do it if they try hard and walk a narrow path.

Sure, there are bigger problems than the Blazers remaining such a great example of neighborly decency, but I think some may be underestimating the importance of good role models that are cool as well.

Kids are subject to peer pressure, and having someone like Brandon in Portland means that the coolest guy in the whole town tries to build for the future rather than blow it all on cheap pleasure today (except for that giant Hummer thing he’s got, right?). Brandon makes it easier to ignore bad influences because kids can still be cool by being like him. It also makes it easier for Pastors to connect with youth when they share the same view on who the coolest guy in Portland is.

I realize I’m putting words in the OP’s mouth, but this is where I see her or him coming from.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 13, 2009 10:44 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

I do not believe in God.

Therefore, I do not believe he will get 5 years.

by Arby on Jul 13, 2009 10:47 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Let's write a logical formula for this:

1. Brandon Roy will only get 5 years if God exists.
2. God does not exist.
_______________
3. Brandon Roy will not get 5 years.

The rules of logical formulas are simple. If 1 and 2 are both true, and 3 follows 1 and 2, then 3 has to be true.

...refusing Coolio's sloppy seconds since 2001...

by TheTinfoil on Jul 13, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Only if the argument is valid.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 13, 2009 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's valid if and only if each individual bullet point is true.

The logic is flawless, it’s the individual points that are obviously up for disagreement.

...refusing Coolio's sloppy seconds since 2001...

by TheTinfoil on Jul 13, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm...

I thought validity was the test of whether 1 & 2 being true actually result in 3.

So your original logical formula up there is invalid even though each individual point might be true.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 13, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Edit

nvm your log. form IS valid. i’m wrong on that.

Invalid:

1. Brandon Roy likes fish.

2. Brandon Roy likes squid.
-———————————————————
3. Brandon Roy likes shrimp.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 13, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So if Brandon Roy does get 5 years

…that means one or both of your logical points are wrong.

"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder

by jamon51 on Jul 14, 2009 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But if he only gets four

it proves nothing under that formula.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 14, 2009 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bingo!

"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder

by jamon51 on Jul 15, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't totally discount that there is a supreme being,

but it is an absurd, archaic, superstition driven fantasy to believe in life after death.

Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave

Also: COMCAST SUCKS!

by TwoDeep on Jul 15, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd like to expand on this thought

since it is kind of related to the thread (religion) but I’ll make it quick ’cuz I have to go out and spray weeds.

Suffice it to say, that imo, if there is life after death for humans, then there also is for every other animal and insect on this earth. Science Modern science has shown that we humans are just another life form that has evolved on this planet with the only real difference being that we’ve evolved with bigger brains.

So if one actually believes there is an afterlife for humans, I just don’t understand how they can believe that it doesn’t apply to the millions of other lifeforms that currently inhabit and have inhabited the planet in the past. It seems totally irrational and superstitious to me for one to believe otherwise.

Knowing what happens to each of earth’s creatures following death (they rot and turn to dust), I have extreme difficulty believing that this mystical, invisible, and impossible to prove “thing” called a soul, somehow separates from the dead creature and transfers itself to who knows where.

Hundreds of years ago when knowledge of earth and universe science was totally lacking I can understand how superstitions like this could take hold (volcano gods, sun gods, statue gods et cetera). But today, the only way I can explain how intelligent and otherwise rational thinking individuals could possibly believe in this life after death fantasy, is that they want it to be true because it is comforting to believe that their existence doesn’t just come to an abrupt end. Or it is simply a result of brainwashing (I was raised a Catholic so I know all about brain washing). It’s probably a combination of the two.

Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave

Also: COMCAST SUCKS!

by TwoDeep on Jul 15, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You better not be wrong

;-)

"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder

by jamon51 on Jul 15, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes.

As I have aged I have found there are very few things in this life that are black and white. The absurdity in the belief of an afterlife for all of nature’s creatures is one of the few things in life I know to be true. It’s one of the very few aspects in life that I can logically, rationally and objectively cling to. In my younger years, I used to profess to friends in religious discussions that “there is never an atheist ins a fox hole” Today, I am so completely sure there is no life after death that I would not even offer up a prayer on my death bed. Truly.

I am dumbfounded that such superstitious, illogical beliefs of life after death still prevail in today’s much enlighten and knowledgeable society.

It will change though. It took 100 years and a good deal of persecution to accept that the sun rather than the earth was was the center of our solar system (because of religious beliefs). This situation, influenced by religious dogma, is too similar..

Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave

Also: COMCAST SUCKS!

by TwoDeep on Jul 15, 2009 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see how anyone who hasn't died

could KNOW this to be true.

Those who believe in an after-life aren’t persecuting those who don’t, though. Rather, the reverse, in many places. You’ll have to come up with a different reason for why this belief exists.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

What will be even more interesting

is in another 1000 years, what they will be saying about how superstious we were here and now.

We can only try to explain with what we know, we will all be proven wrong from time to time as we gain more knowledge. While I believe in science and God, I don’t believe that we are perfect in our conclusions about both.

by usmcr3049 on Jul 15, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

This is where I stand.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 15, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But I'm perfect in my conclusions

about the Blazers!

"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder

by jamon51 on Jul 15, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think every sweet creature that got wiped out by man, became a man

It explains a lot when you think about it.

Q: Why did the dodo’s get wiped out?

A: Because they were stupid.

Q: Where did all the dodo’s go after they died?

A: They are now Lakers fans.

by tominhawaii on Jul 15, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Quit swearing

And you are also guilty of species-ism — you’ve insulted the dodos.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 15, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How can we apply the history of the dodo

to L*ker fans? Wiping them out, I mean.

What would they become then? Jazz fans?

"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder

by jamon51 on Jul 15, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That makes some sense

I don’t think Kobe was a dodo though.

If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar

by Norsktroll on Jul 16, 2009 1:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So from what I'm getting from all this

Is that Brandon Roy is a gateway drug to Christ.

I bet LMA would approve.

by Arby on Jul 13, 2009 11:14 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Especially if it nets him $60M

"Life is a meaningless sequence of events in between Blazer championships"

by broggerboy19 on Jul 13, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for a personal anecdote.

It puts a smile on my face to know kids in the Portland area can look up to the Blazers again.

"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith

by blzrfan on Jul 13, 2009 11:19 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Kudos for you for taking the time with the Kid, but

      I would be willing to bet the it was the TIME with YOu, not the venue that he liked the most. Might have been a Good Play, a skiing trip, catching a few trout on the Deschutes and he would have loved it just as much. That said, nothing wrong with a Blazers game also. Just not sure what it has to do with Brandon’s 5th year.

   RoadBlazer

by Roadblazer on Jul 13, 2009 4:54 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Great story man.

Nice way to step up for the kids. I dont see how anyone can be negative towards this post.

by BlazerBen on Jul 13, 2009 7:00 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

+1

Team Bayless - The takeover begins in 2009

by blazeraddict on Jul 13, 2009 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Appreciate your vulnerability here and your story

5th year aside, you might look up Fellowship of Christian Athletes to get some one-on-one time for the kids with additional role models.

by lee3022 on Jul 14, 2009 1:14 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Thank you for expending the time and resources

to take disadvantaged youths to Blazer games, or any positive activity and attention you give for that matter. That is “way cool”.

"The match in Los Angeles is a good opportunity to begin to demonstrate that we want to make war." Rudy Fernández (translated)

by G_dubs on Jul 14, 2009 2:17 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

...so a +1 for you in that regard.

"The match in Los Angeles is a good opportunity to begin to demonstrate that we want to make war." Rudy Fernández (translated)

by G_dubs on Jul 14, 2009 2:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

God loves the Blazers, but hates the Lakers

I have been spreading the good gospel message of Blazer basketball here in the barren land of Southern California. It is my mission field.

We all know what K*be did in Colorado to that girl. Dear Lord, please let whatever team that plays the LA Clankers beat them to oblivion. Amen.

by Pritchslap on Jul 14, 2009 8:18 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Wait!

Are you… me?

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 14, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

How long until this entire thread is wiped off the face of the Sedge? – Elgin

Without you out there, we're nowhere here

by 22baylor on Jul 14, 2009 11:59 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Just to make sure it is

A quote from my son #2 who was baptized a catholic to make his strident grand mother happy and made up his own mind about it " why dont these large,powerfull,greedy politcal insitutions pay tax’s"

by southern oregon on Jul 14, 2009 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Probably because taxing donations is pretty much out of the question.

His argument becomes more compelling when we also begin to tax large powerful greedy political institutions like the World Bank, Feed the Children, World Vision, & Amnesty International.

Regardless, it is retorts like this one (mine) that ruin a thread like this, not the OP. Is it wrong to be a fan of a team as it relates to an experience with God? Or are we (including me) really this intolerant?

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 14, 2009 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't mean the kid's thoughts can't be taken seriously.

It showed intelligence. I didn’t mean to put him down, but rather, to treat his thought as worthy of discussion. The second part of my reply was directed at the whole of us BEdgers and was not meant particularly for you.

Of course, you are his dad, so I have no right to judge what direction we should look at his statement. I’m sorry if I offended you.

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 14, 2009 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Peace brother is what Joe is saying

He is still not ok with the vast amount of " church" property that dont pay property tax or pay for the the road maintence to their their vastly valuable holdings in Santa Barbara and Malibu.

by southern oregon on Jul 14, 2009 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah. That is disturbing. And Catholic holdings are just one example.

It has been a big issue for quite some time. It is quite a loophole for people with a bent for fraud.

What if God told a church that He needed them to pay Rubio’s buyout on the stipulation that Rubio played for the Blazers? Would paying off Rubio’s buyout become tax deductible?

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 14, 2009 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds like a good plan!

The Princess of Blazersedge

by Zaig on Jul 15, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"I'm afraid it was the Morrrrrrmons. The Morrrrrrmons were the correct answer." ("Awwwwwwwwww!")

LINK

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Jul 15, 2009 9:39 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I've heard that Mormons enjoy

Conjugal Visits

In Soviet Russia
Statutory rapes YOU!
--- Mortstridamus 3/14/2008

by L-TrainFTW! on Jul 16, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nuts!

"Aneurysm".

When Outlaw wins a game on a last-second shot, it’s called an "annthefaneurysm". QualityPie

by annthefan on Jul 16, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

After reading through this thread while I like the debate I wonder how Roy's contract negotiations took on a religious meaning

And if Roy is as religious as LaMarcus, Joel, etc.

If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar

by Norsktroll on Jul 16, 2009 1:07 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

""He is not being rational in the least, as the notion that God gave him his ability rests upon the assumption of the existence of God, an assumption which cannot be rationally defended as true. ""

This statement is contradictory. This person is claiming that a statement is irrational do to the inability to rationally defend the existence of God. By making this statement, this person would have to explain our exist on the ‘big bang’ theory. A theory, that even the top scientists are unable to explain. They note it as something “magical” happening. This persons ‘rational’ thought is that he exists because, from NOTHING, particles were formed. Do some research for me and let me know if a scientist has even been able to create something out of completely NOTHING. You believe that something can come from nothing, I’ll continue to believe in a benevolent God

Rational thought against somehting, would imply a rational thought for something else.

by herricks28 on Jul 16, 2009 11:03 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

As far as the "fact" of the Resurection

I have some chops as a Bible scholar from a more objective historian than faith based point of view. Consider the well documented “assination” of Rasputin,he was poisoned,beaten,shot numerous times,wraped in chains and thrown in the Moscow River in the middle of winter and he came back. The possiblity that Christ survived his ordeal and was removed from the tomb alive by his followers is quite real.

by southern oregon on Jul 16, 2009 2:27 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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