An Analysis of Today's Events: Roy, Millsap, and McMillan
by Dave on Jul 11, 2009 12:43 AM PDT
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PrintThis has been a busy day. You can catch all of the vital Portland Trail Blazers news in the posts below this one. Once you've caught up, here's the analysis that you may or may not hear elsewhere.
On the Brandon Roy Re-Signing
We're certainly hearing a lot about this in the papers and on the radio. Everybody can relax. Brandon Roy is the cornerstone of this franchise. The Blazers are not going to let Brandon Roy go anywhere. Everyone from the guy who picks up stray Blazer Dancer sequins off of the court to the hugest stuffed shirt at Vulcan headquarters knows that the team would nosedive on the court and in the court of public opinion should Roy leave. You simply couldn't manufacture a bigger energy-sucking, ticket-refund-demanding buzzkill. They know that they can't even let Roy get to restricted free agency. Brandon Roy is going to get what Brandon Roy wants.
So far everybody has been focusing on identifying the source holding up the inevitable. Is it Pritchard? Is it Allen? Is it the Vulcan execs? That's not the critical point here. Wherever it's coming from, the wrangling and posturing is not about Brandon Roy. If this roster looked like San Antonio's Roy would already have his deal. But it doesn't. Right behind Roy comes a veritable herd of young, talented players up for contract negotiations in the next few years.
The most immediate of them is LaMarcus Aldridge who, by the way, has the exact same agent as Roy. The Blazers don't want to offer LaMarcus a five-year max deal, at least not without a fight. But they can't very well skip blithely into Brandon Roy's arms, give him an instant max extension, hold a celebratory parade down Broadway, and then start playing hardball with Aldridge. That would look disrespectful and cheese everybody off. They have to at least fight with Roy if they're going to fight with LaMarcus. The reality is they're probably going to have to make both contracts equal but you can understand them wanting to split the difference in cost between the two players rather than automatically maxing them both. I don't think it's going to work, but you can see where they'd try.
LaMarcus isn't the end of the story either. Greg Oden will be coming up in a couple years. He's the kind of player who seems to demand a maximum offer but hasn't played like a max guy yet. Rudy Fernandez, Nicolas Batum, and Jerryd Bayless are possibilities on the horizon as well. Any of those players who remain with the team, provided they grow reasonably, will be making their cases for huge deals. It's going to be difficult to start pulling the hard-case negotiation routine with any of them (particularly Oden) if you've been auto-maxing the players who came before. But if you negotiated hard with Roy, which Blazer will you not negotiate with? This is a complex arena. It's like poker with the agents and players. Even if you know you're going to fold a hand you still want to protect your table image so people don't think you're easy. So you posture before you fold, stare them down, make them a little nervous that you really do have something and if they raise you again you're going to call them on it. If you have to lose you want to lose a hand, not the whole shooting match.
The economic realities of the situation also give the Blazers incentive to chew on this a while. Two max deals over five years runs into the mid-$100 million range in real money. You're going to take a deep breath before you sign those papers no matter who that money is going to. Plus you have a double-whammy with the salary cap and luxury tax threshold declining already and more forecast to come added in with a new CBA being negotiated. That makes every long-term contract risky. You can't predict how those numbers will affect the team. Executives, whether of basketball or business variety, hate having to operate on incomplete information. Shaving a year off reduces the risk. The team would be foolish not to try and get those terms. Again, it probably won't work, but they have to try. If it takes a game of contract chicken, well, these wouldn't be the first negotiations in which that happened. Most of the time the player stays put and everyone walks away happy.
Have you ever been out biking and crested the top of a huge hill, suddenly looking down at a steep, half-mile slope ahead of you? That's where the Blazers are right now. They pedaled like heck to get here but now the grade changes precipitously. They're going to pick up speed whether they want to or not. They can't adjust much or turn around after this point. If they blow it there are going to be dire consequences. Right now you're watching them do what all of us do in that situation. They're putting on the brakes, slowing down a little, making sure they get a good, safe start so they're not wildly out of control halfway down. If you have any doubts about whether they'll go, remember that they came here specifically to take this ride. It'll happen.
On Paul Millsap
I've seen the numbers. I know the deal is front-loaded to make it uncomfortable for Utah to sign. I still think at that amount they're going to do it. It was a technically brilliant offer. It makes the Jazz squirm but the Blazers would still be getting a comfortable bargain if Utah doesn't sign. But it's also an acknowledgement that Millsap isn't the perfect fit here, else the maximum would have been offered. The Jazz will simply want him more, probably shedding Boozer if they can to make the financial pain more palatable. Until we hear officially whether or not Utah has matched I'm just going to assume we're not getting him. Ending up with him would be a nice bonus.
I'm pretty sure that after this the serious free-agent offers are done. You may see the Blazers take a run at Andre Miller on the cheap. They may be protecting a little extra cap room in the Millsap offer in order to facilitate a trade. But you probably won't see another free agent offer this big.
On Coach McMillan's Extra Year
Extending Nate for another year made a ton of sense for everybody. I believe what he says about being comfortable earning his contract year by year. It's not like he's a lame duck every year. There's an extra year of cushion. He might just be the kind of guy who likes that challenge of proving himself. It's not a horrible financial move either. If you're performing well it makes sense not to tie yourself up unduly long. Open options usually make you more money whether you stay or go. The team probably isn't in the mood to spend money until it has to, so they're likely comfortable with the arrangement. The option was built into the contract for a reason. Plus now Nate can preach the "earning it every year" gospel to all of these players who are thinking about impending long-term deals.
All of that aside, it also seems like the two parties are still feeling each other out, even after all of these years. That's not because either side is opaque or devious, rather because the team has been (and still is) in a near-constant state of flux. If the organization doesn't get him some veteran help at some point I could see Nate wanting the option to walk. On the other hand the team still wants to see if Nate is the guy for the next phase of their development. Neither side is keeping the other on a short leash but both still have questions. Given that, a couple years seems about right.
Heck of a week, eh? Next week should be eventful too.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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Comments
I resent the calming balm of reasonable words
I have the right as a fan to mindless panic and wild accusations of incompetence and malice, and demand more blame on all parties involved, except us.
Honor Alaa Abdelnaby.
First in the NBA. At least alphabetically
by OhOhOden on Jul 11, 2009 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
it's insulting
To call it “mindless panic.”
It’s quite mindful, thanks. Not all of us have to have complete faith in the godlike powers of KP, nor do we have to agree with Dave’s guess as to what KP is thinking in not making this negotiation a one-hour affair.
Personally, I think KP has had egg on his face all month, and if he is in fact using Roy’s negotiations to set an example for future negotiations, I think he’s being foolish. The best thing to do right now – and three days ago – is to make sure Brandon is happy and appreciated. What’s best for Brandon is what’s best for the Blazers long term.
False dichotomy
Either you have “mindless panic” or you have “complete faith in the godlike powers of KP”.
Classic example of competing straw men.
Oh, no doubt there is some mindless panic, and no doubt there is “complete faith in godlike KP”. But most people fall somewhere in between, obviously.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Great insight into the Roy negotiations.
It is pretty often that agents and GMs haggle over contracts. Most of the time it doesn’t create any long-term angst. This does set a precedent for future negotiations. It just seems we shouldn’t push too hard and then come to regret it later.
Good thought but on B-Roy's contract
Is it a reasonable assumption that he wants a LBJ, "Melo, D-Wade 5 years opt out in 3? So by offering him a 4 year no-opt out are the Blazers actually wanting to keep him another year for sure? We have read about Tracy McGrady’s contract squabbles and they were much worse than this – same agent!
Anyway thanks for the steadying hand. I think you are exactly right – Brandon gets what Brandon wants. It works out to $28M in the 1st year with Luxury tax and that is a hard pill to swallow. With another one now and at least one more to follow. Losing $50M/year has not gotten us there in the past and only Mark Cuban is willing to lose that much in the NBA besides Paul Allen.
by lee3022 on Jul 11, 2009 12:57 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
i just wrote the same thought in the Millsap thread:
one thought that occurred to me is that Roy could be wanting a 5 year extension, with an ETO after 3 years. the team might be saying we’ll give you either a straight 4 instead, or 5 with and ETO after 4
This would actually fit into the reported dispute – Roy wants 5, Blazers want 4, but the ETO details aren’t being given out, which would at least somewhat justify the Blazer’s reported position. they could be pushing for 4 years to protect themselves from Roy opting out after just 3
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
and to clarify
that would be 3 years into his extension, which doesn’t start until 2010-11, so if he got an ETO after the 3rd extension year, that would be summer 2013. To illustrate:
2009-10: last year of rookie scale
2010-11: 1st year of extension
2011-12: 2nd year of extension
2012-13: 3rd year of extension <— earliest an ETO can be in the contract (Roy wants ETO here?)
2013-14 4th year of extension <— (Blazers willing to give ETO or ending contract here?)
2014-15: 5th year of extension <— longest allowable extension (Roy wants this length)
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
Good thinking in tandem
I wrote earlier in pdxrob’s fan post:
Roy would give up $3.6M to sign elsewhere
But it is no doubt the same problem for any other team – 5 years with opt-out in 3 years. He will opt-out to get another raise. It sounds like the Blazers are wanting 4 years with no opt-out. Maybe they get it – likely not but they have to fight because LMA will want the same terms.
KP has said there is no risk of losing them and I believe KP.
Are you sure about the ETO after three years?
Coon says “An ETO can’t occur prior to the end of the fourth season of the contract.” I couldn’t find anything specifically about ETOs and extensions.
Keep in mind that everything I know about basketball I learned on Blazers Edge.
doublecheck this
this is an extension, not a new deal. in my reading on this last night, there was cleary a difference in how those two things are treated. No ETO can happen before the 4th year true, but extending his contract the full 5 would make it 6 years left on his contract, and an ETO can be added after 4 years. which is after the 3rd extension year, or 4th year remaining.
this is exactly what LeBron did. In summer of 2006, after 3 years of play, he signed a 5 year extension set to start in 2007-08, with an ETO after the 2009-10 season. Which is exactly 3 years into the extension, the exact same scenario I outlined above.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
Lebron signed a 4 year extension, not a 5 year
His 4th year is a player option, not an ETO.
But you make a good argument about an extension vs. signing a new contract. I don’t remember anyone getting an ETO in the way you propose, but I’ll check to see if it’s legal.
On 7/12/2006, LeBron James signed a four-year contract extension with a player ...
option — rather than an early termination option — that may be exercised after the third year of the deal. Yet, on that same day, Carmelo Anthony signed a five-year contract extenstion with an early termination option that may be exercised after the fourth year of the deal.
doublechecked my research on this
Larry Coon FAQ, relevant questions are 46, 50, 51
Rookie scale contracts may be extended for up to five seasons beyond the player’s last option season, bringing the total contract length to six seasons.
An ETO can’t occur prior to the end of the fourth season of the contract (which implies that the contract must be for at least five seasons)
A six year contract may contain an ETO following the fourth season and an option (either player or team) following the fifth season
ETOs can occur when two seasons remain if the contract is for six seasons
Maximum years: Extensions: 6 (including remaining seasons of current contract)
Thus, EXTENDING Roy makes his total contract length 6 years (this is different than a new contract which would start after the upcoming season). 6 year deals can have an ETO after 4 years (which is 3 years into the extension. ETOs are also allowed when two full years are remaining on the contract. Putting all this together it seems pretty clear to me that a 5 year extension (making the contract 6 years total), with an ETO after the 3rd year of the extension (which is the 4th year of the contract), is indeed perfectly allowable.
Mo Williams signed a 6 year contract starting 2007-08 which appears to have an ETO after the 4th year, thought I’m having a hard time finding details. Accoring to your site Storyteller, the last 2 years are listed as player option/ETO. Since options can only occur when just one year is remaining on the deal, this would infer that it is an ETO as well.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
I agree about the ETO.
Otherwise I can’t imagine why the Klingons wouldn’t want to tie him up for 5 years. If Roy issues a statement next week as he threatened to do today, we should know then.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 11, 2009 2:16 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Greg Oden will be coming up in a couple years.
It’s not a couple years out… it’s next Summer. Time flies when you miss a season due to injury. (If I’m mistaken about it being next Summer, someone feel free to correct me)
Now that will be an interesting negotiation. If Greg has even an average (and uninjured) year for a Center this Winter… well, Bargnani got 5/50. Plus, assume that Roy and LMA are signed for max or near-max money. What would Oden get? What would his agent demand?
The anxiety might be even deeper next year.
I wonder
If they will try to wait until 2011 when he is a RFA to sign him. It would be risky though because he could just take the QO and walk in 2012.
there will be anxiety but not like this year
simply because GO doesn’t have the leverage that Roy has. thats the whole point of this mess. Roy IS the franchise, GO is an oft injured big man who has yet to prove anything. Roy is frustrated, we are frustrated (at the negotiations). GO is frustrated, we are frustrated with HIM.
as for the assumption that LA should just get a max in the event that we didn’t haggle with Roy, I just think thats a bit of a stretch. especially since LA in his last interview with quick basically acknowledged that he plays second fiddle to Roy. I don’t care about his glossy info packet and neither does KP. 2 time all star v. 0 time all star. end of story. LA will prob get 5 yrs but not max money. I think thats been obvious for 2 years now and that wouldn’t change if we just gave Roy his max contract. You just don’t haggle with Roy unless he wants LESS years. now, given the ETO assumptions above its possible that that would be a good reason to negotiate. if that assumption is correct.
The Blazers as a whole are far more like my wife than like me in the sense of their physicality on defense.
-Dave
LA will prob get 5 yrs but not max money.
Note that I also said “near-max”. Since I was focused on Oden, it was easier to just combine the two and say they’ll both be close to max (in Roy’s case, max, but I presumed that was self-explanatory). Bargnani got 5/50. If LMA gets equal to or less than that, I’d be surprised, barring unknown problems.
LMA’s agent is known for getting good deals for his clients, glossy info pack or no.
"You just don’t haggle with Roy"
Why? You’ve given no explanation. You haggle with superstars and you haggle with scrubs. The incentive to haggle with superstars is the outlay of millions of dollars. Yes, Roy is phenomenal and that impacts the leverage the Blazers have but that doesn’t mean you try. Sheesh.
(___)
Get a vet(s) for Nate.
Contracts for B-Roy, LA?
In KP we trust(?)
--
by CaptainSexyJacob on Jul 11, 2009 1:12 AM PDT up reply actions
Haiku
Allen has money
Enough for everybody
Pritchslap Imminent
by Chris-8ally on Jul 11, 2009 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good analysis, I think.
The part on B-Roy’s contract setting a precedent makes a whole lot of sense and reassures my mind.
Unfortunately we probably don’t get Millsap. Too bad.
This is why I come to Blazers Edge
Chicken soup for the Blazer fans soul, just a simple common sense analysis of all the situation. Oregonian/oregonlive.com/whatever/ could use more of this kind of stuff.
by neutroticblazerfan on Jul 11, 2009 1:07 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Calming words.
I listen to the radio all day and all I hear is Canzano + co. slam on the Blazers’ front office.
Is it his reflex to always to always attack management?
Dave offers perspective. This may turn out to be a smart move on the Zers’ part.
--
by CaptainSexyJacob on Jul 11, 2009 1:15 AM PDT up reply actions
haiku by John Canzano
Down with the “Man”, man!
I fuss like a little dork
but i won “award”.
"We didn’t pick Blair because of his history of fat-assery" -BlazerTag
If he is on "The Fan" then he gets his paycheck from the same man who pays KP
If we don’t listen or read his drivel we do not drive the numbers up to pay him.
I thought it was The Game that was Paul Allen-owned
"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder
You are correct sir...
But please don’t call them the “Zers”. That’s an oregonlive thing and I think it’s somewhat insulting.
Canzano and Quick are sensationalists. It’s all about the hype for them. Quick is actually fairly accurate alot of the time but is also melodramatic.
It will all be fine in the long run. BRoy and LMA will sign, Greg will mature and earn his extension next summer and the Blazers will be better next year than last…
Thanks for the calming words Dave. I'm still not comfortable with all this though.
Not getting Hedo? Meh. Whatever. Didn’t like him much for this team anyway. Trades falling through? Not a big deal. I liked this teams chances to grow organically into a contender. Other free agents not interested in Portland? Old news. We’ve felt that sting before…………..
But Brandon Roy coming out in the press thinking there is a 50/50 chance he gets an extension?!!!!!!!! Are you #$%^&^% kidding me?! Really?! 50/50?! I know you’re probably right Dave, and I think you may be right about the team trying to set precedence regarding negotiations with other players. But I don’t care. Brandon should not be used to set an example. He has lifted this team from the bowels of embarrassment and into respectability again, and should be rewarded. Period. God I hope this is over soon.
50/50 this summer
I believe he said there was a 50/50 chance of him doing his deal ‘this summer’. Not a 50/50 chance of a deal being done ‘in general’. Sounds like a positioning statement more then anything.
by ItsMrHarris2u on Jul 11, 2009 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Sounded like the 50/50 was referring to a max contract
It came almost right after “I’ve done everything I possibly could to y’know, get, I feel, a maximum contract. So now I just kind of have to wait and hope that it comes through.”
Calm down man
This is the exact reaction Dave is warning against. I know it is hard to believe but while the Blazers send a message to Roy, Roy may be sending a message to the Blazers. That’s what negotiations are about.
It is all of four days after the signing period started. We’ve heard reports of deals getting done right before the season starts or during the season. Roy will be paid. He will be a Blazer.
BTW Thanks for the post Dave
We were way overdue for an “everything’s ok” perspective. It’s much appreciated.
by Timmay! on Jul 11, 2009 1:10 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm still curious about the Chicago trade...
To me (and obviously several others on this site) it seems like the offer for Millsap (toxic as it may be) was an honest effort to force Utah into trading Boozer to the Bulls. Hollinger, along with virtually all of America (via the ESPN poll) seem to make the trade a desirable option for all parties. Was this offer simply a jab at Utah’s finances or a chance to grab a great player at a good price? Or was it a political move to grab a player that Portland (supposedly) wants badly in Hinrich without giving up Rex? I love the insight on the Roy contract issue but I’m curious about your (ever so intelligent) view on trade possibilities the Millsap offer accentuates.
leverage play all the way
Portland will either:
- force Utah to salary dump Boozer in a trade involving someone else coming to Portland
- force Utah to salary dump Boozer in a trade NOT involving Portland, thus eliminating another below-cap team allowing Portland more leverage in a different salary dump trade
- force Utah to pay an extra 7.7 in luxury tax this year, 250,000 of which will flow directly to Portland (not to mention other benefits of causing a division rival to hemmorage cash)
- force Utah to let you have Millsap, thus gaining a young valuable player on a quite reasonable contract, allowing you to turn your capspace into envious frontcourt depth which can be turned into a trade later and does NOT expire on July 1, 2010.
The cost? 7 days of tied up cap money in a market where you no longer need it.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
by douglast on Jul 11, 2009 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Definitely a great move
The options are all great in one way or another. I guess I’m just hoping for more than a schadenfreude type enjoyment of Utah’s problems. Having way too much time lately at work has led me to refreshing NBA blogs incessantly and I’m really curious about Dave’s view on the situation.
Right now the impression I’m getting is that unless Portland concedes and ties Bayless into the trade Portland will probably get nothing out of this move aside from a setback to a division rival.
Also, why has Lee evaporated from talks? To me, him and Millsap are VERY similar producers with similar price tags. I know NYC hasn’t pulled any of the moves they wanted and probably have money to match but if this falls through is there any reason we shouldn’t at least make the same offer for him in order to (worst case scenario) cause trouble for a big player in next years FA market?
Great rundown
Very succinct. I totally missed the benefit of potentially eliminating another capspace team
"Life is a meaningless sequence of events in between Blazer championships"
by broggerboy19 on Jul 11, 2009 2:06 AM PDT up reply actions
and another note on that
our capspace could climb as high as just over 9 million once the season starts, which is the amount it would be if we just add the mimimum number of players (3) to our roster, and all 3 get the rookie minimum. This is because the Claver/Koponen/Freeland cap holds go away at that point.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
by douglast on Jul 11, 2009 2:11 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Excellent recap of the possible scenarios douglast.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
with all the talk about the Chicago trade
I was never clear on what exactly Portland would be giving up. Bayless, right? Which KP didn’t want to do, which is why the deal fell apart? That’s how I understood it…
Chicago gets: Boozer, Bayless
Utah gets: Ty Thomas
Portland gets: Hinrich
That was the deal, was it not? Probably a moot question now, but I’m still curious.
And if not Bayless, what was wrong with:
Chicago gets: Boozer, Blake
Utah gets: Ty Thomas
Portland gets: Hinrich
What I heard was that Chicago didn’t want to give up both Hinrich and Ty Thomas without getting somebody like Bayless back. So instead they came back with:
Chicago gets: Boozer, Blake
Utah gets: TIM Thomas
Portland gets: Hinrich
In which case, the Jazz wouldn’t want to do that, as Tim’s contract isn’t enough of a discount ($6.4M vs. $4.7M for Tyrus), nor is he good enough of a player.
So in Trade #1, Portland nixed it. In #2, Chicago did. In #3, Utah did. Is that how you all understood it? I would really have thought something could have been done to make the deal work, because all of those seem so close.
Uh, do you think you could draw me like a ninja?
this is exactly how i understood it to be as well
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
okay, thanks, just checking
I mean, all three of those just seem so close to something that could work. I mean, a first-round draft pick here, a young player there, surely something could be done. I dunno, I’m not a GM, but I admit to being pretty desperate as a Jazz fan these days.
Uh, do you think you could draw me like a ninja?
Since Chicago claims
they were never in discussions, and since KP said that PG wasn’t the main area he was targeting, I think these alleged trade scenarios are simply Internet fictions.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
From Oregon-live
Report: Kirk Hinrich deal appears to be dead
Posted by OregonLive.com July 10, 2009 14:20PM
Categories: Trade rumors
The previously reported three-way deal involving the Trail Blazers, Utah Jazz and Chicago Bulls is now dead, at least according to ESPN’s Chris Broussard (Insider).
ESPN The Magazine’s Chris Broussard updated the NBA’s story of the day on the noon edition of Sportscenter by stating the proposed three-way trade between the Utah Jazz, Portland Trail Blazers and Chicago Bulls centered around Carlos Boozer is dead. At least in its current incarnation.
Broussard quoted Blazers ""GM Kevin Pritchard as saying bluntly that it’s “not going to happen,” despite his team’s strong desire to bring in G Kirk Hinrich from Chicago.""
If we can't believe anything we read,
why do we spend so much time discussing it?
by MiledAnimal on Jul 11, 2009 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions
There's lots to do.
Well, you can go and fly a kite, go and fly a kite,
Or you can go and jump a frog, go and jump a frog,
Or you can go and fly a kite, go and fly a kite,
Or you can do both, at Alpenrose.
or you can submit yet another Devin Harris trade proposal
I chose the last one
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I don't want that long-range bricklayer.
I don’t make trade proposals on Blazersedge. If I do it, then everyone will be making them and the site will be full of people proposing impossible trades and arguing about them and shouting curses at each other and getting banned.
Sounds Awesome!
Where is Alpenrose? I wanna go!
If Kevin Pritchard won't pull the trigger on acquiring Kirk Hinrich due to his ...
half-baked, irrational mancrush on a me-first, gunning shooting guard — who’s in the body of a point — then he should lose his job. That isn’t hyperbole, either.
If only Paul Allen
would listen to some young upstart on the Internet as to how he should structure his front office.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Well, if by not giving up Bayless Portland can force the Jazz to give up Millsap, it's a no-brainer to not include him
Although that doesn’t address our playmaking situation, so it would essentially mean the Blazers still bank on Blake and Bayless to be that other scorer and playmaker next to Roy in the future.
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
that's the thing
I would have thought you’d value a playmaker like Hinrich more than overpaying a backup (Millsap) and giving up a dude who played ten minutes a game last season, and who wouldn’t play if Hinrich were in PDX anyway. I dunno, I see your point, and the Jazz are surely in the worst bargaining position here, so if they’re the ones that have to give up one more piece, then fine, but I want someone to get it done!
Uh, do you think you could draw me like a ninja?
and by the way
if you want some of that schadenfreude, I’m giving it to you in spades here… :P
Uh, do you think you could draw me like a ninja?
Haha sorry, I’ve always liked the Jazz… minus that punk deathbringer Harpring.
To be honest though, I don’t think Utah is exactly Portland’s biggest threat by any means thanks to other teams, contracts, and the general economic state.
Hell, I say if these options fail just max out Lamar Odom and be prepared to bench him when he quits playing due to a lack of beaches in Portland. The damage to LA by removing their “x-factor” would bring a tear of joy to my eye (and I’m pretty sure everyone else around the league.)
flim-flam stories and tapas
haha, no worries
you have every right to enjoy every bit of it, we’re division rivals and I totally get it. And yes, death to LA.
Okay, time to stop monopolizing your thread. Thanks, fellas.
Uh, do you think you could draw me like a ninja?
The Kirilenko contract is the killer... That's what's allowing Utah to be bullied into the tax now...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
.................... although I will say the huge extension for Memo was also Really Not Smart.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
How many years left, Utah fans?
Two more for Kirilenko, topping out at around $18 million next season?
You really only have to suffer with that anchor next year; he becomes an expiring deal attached to a functional (defensive) player after that.
from Portland's perspective it's this
the choices:
1) Blake plus (insert player(s) here who we end up acquiring using cap space) for Hinrich, leaving us with a Hinrich/Bayless PG rotation
2) Bayless plus (insert player(s) here who we end up acquiring using cap space) for Hinrich, leaving us with a Hinrich/Blake PG rotation.
so its really 2 (or more) players we are giving up by doing this deal, even though we don’t yet know who the 2nd one is. It seems Portland is ok spending that unknown player to upgrade from Blake to Hinrich, but not ok to upgrade from Bayless to Hinrich. Likely for three reasons – 1) Blake is a known quantity, where Bayless is not, and he has potential to be much more, 2) Blake and Hinrich are largely duplicative in what they give you on the court, and 3) Bayless is under a (cheap) contract for 3 more years.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
It also could come from others
Rudy as playmaker and scorer. Martell and Travis for third scorer, and maybe Pendergraph if the Millsap deal falls though.
I think we are in great shape as we are.
hg
and my personal opinion, trying to be objective
Scenario 1: on the surface, it looks like Bayless for Hinrich, which sounds good. In reality, it’s Bayless plus ALL our capspace for Hinrich, which is to me too big a price to pay for a guy who will be largely duplicative of Blake, who you are keeping, and likely isn’t a big enough upgrade. Chicago loves this deal, they are making out like bandits by clearing 2010 space (don’t undersell the value of not having a Tyrus cap hold and/or extension on their books – Hinrich/Boozer isn’t the only space they are clearing) and getting a 20/10 guy AND a young lottery pick on a low contract. Utah is clearing 8 million in salary, plus another 8 in tax payments all for getting rid of a guy they don’t want and weren’t planning on having anyway.
Scenario 2: This is a fair deal for Portland, but not a steal by any means. They upgrade Blake to Kirk (at double the cost and 2 extra years), but the cost is all but 2.2 million of available capspace.Same deal for Utah as before. Chicago gets all the benefits of deal 1, except rather than the young guard on a cheap contract they get a more proven, steady low-mistake veteran PG to backup Rose, which would seem to be preferable. Plus he’s on his last year and could provide even MORE 2010 space if released. Or he could likely be retained at a very reasonable rate going forward. Honestly, I think it’s a fair offer for them, assuming their goal is to clear 2010 space for a max free agent (Wade)
Scenario 3: Same deal as #2 for Portland. In this scenario, Utah is saving 5 million dollars less than they would in the other two scenarios. That and they are getting a significantly less useful player. I can see why they would object. Chicago is still making out great, getting their steady backup PG and their 20/10 power forward, only now also get to keep Tyrus. The downside is that they now have to cut Tyrus loose at the end of the year, or else pay him the QO or a new contract, thus cutting into their 2010 capspace. But still a good deal for them.
So in my opinion, deal 2 is probably the most fair to all parties involved. But of all three teams, the Bulls have the most bargaining power currently – they don’t need to do something as much as Utah or Portland do, so they are trying to be a bit greedy by going for door #1 instead. Cant blame them for trying.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
by douglast on Jul 11, 2009 2:01 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
both of those posts made a whole lot of sense.
thanks for taking the time to explain your position. And I agree, it seems like the best for all concerned would be Door #2. I mean, if I were Chicago, and had Steve Blake to back up Derrick Rose, I would be thrilled. That seems ideal to me.
Uh, do you think you could draw me like a ninja?
Yea, but Hinrich is extremely tradeable
they can get rid of him for cap space any time they wish. His contract declines in value. Same goes for Tyrus Thomas. These guys are assets, not great ones, but assets nonetheless.
The Bulls are probably just not all that enamored with taking on Boozer for one year because it essentially pigeon-holes them. Whereas if they keep Hinrich and TT it gives them flexibility for the rest of the summer and at the trade deadline just in case something better comes along (Bosh, Stoudemire, whatever).
Boozer is a nice player, but he has warts and to just give up pretty decent pieces to get him for one year when you might be able to just sign him next year isn’t exactly a no brainer move. The Bulls aren’t winning a championship with Carlos Boozer this year, in fact they’d be lucky to get to the second round with him, so for that kind of payoff I don’t think they’ll be in any hurry.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Jul 11, 2009 3:01 AM PDT up reply actions
The Bulls have been shopping Hinrich for a while, now
He definitely was on the table last trading deadline. They’ve had suitors, but the hook hasn’t ever set, and that’s largely about the salary number.
Everyone sees how useful the guy is — I’m pretty sure Chicago watched its own playoff series and recognized Kirk’s contribution — but whether the deal declines or not it’s at a fairly high number for 3 more years, attached to a guy with his production and injury history. Even having let Gordon walk, you may have noticed the Bulls are still interested in deals.
“Extremely tradeable,” perhaps not. Maybe not the “extremely” part.
(And then, the Bulls may consider Boozer to be a rental — a one-year acquisition who can expire and get them out of Kirk’s money in order to go after a Wade or Bosh.)
This "injury history" thing is way overstated.
It keeps showing up here. But last year was the only year Kirk lost significant time to a single serious injury, and it was a thumb injury that he’s shown he’s come back from and doesn’t at all have the long-term kind of concerns that a major knee or even ankle or back injury would cause.
In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!
Once again, I thank you for debunking this widespread lie about Kirk Hinrich's ...
health. During Hinrich’s first five seasons in the NBA, he played in 389 out of 410 possible games, so let’s hope that those facts kill of this moronic myth.
I just don't get where this comes from.
I think people must have him confused with Luol Deng or something, because I’ve seen quite a few people citing “injury concerns” around here.
In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!
Kirk and Luol... yeah, they do look a lot alike.
by MiledAnimal on Jul 11, 2009 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions
They both have teeth
and both open their mouths when laughing.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Why does Portland have to do anything?
There are other back – up PF’s.
Maybe the management doesn’t put Hinrich as that much better than Blake and they don’t want to give up Jerryd.
We are going to get better next year regardless of what happens with free agency and trades.
Rudy can do everything Hinrich can do and he is already under contract.
Up until yesterday, Mills could also have been a playmaker and speedy pg that you all or wanting so badly.
So again why does Portland have to do anything.
hg
Fair?
I’m having a hard thinking about Tim Thomas (not Tyrus Thomas) and fair in the same paragraph, much less same sentence. We’re talking about Tim Thomas, who’s been with seemingly every team in the NBA over the last couple of years. I like the proposed trade from Portland’s and Chicago’s perspective, but if I’m Utah, I wouldn’t do the deal. I’m getting Tim Thomas. No thank you!
Utah has other options. Call OKC and offer Boozer for any one making about $2,500,000, and I mean any one. I’d take any one but Tim Thomas. Added bonus, I’m not helping Portland get Hinrich.
If you're OKC, why do it?
You only up your wins, but not enough to make the playoffs. So, you harm your draft position, use your space, and say bye when it’s all done. Just don’t see them going there. They’re still in a grace period with their fans. They don’t have to do anything drastic like this to sell tickets.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
Besides the expiring contract,
I think the incentive with Tim Thomas is that he’s talked about being agreeable to a buyout. Not trying to say that’s a great incentive or anything, but if he were amenable to a buyout it might make things work financially if the Jazz can’t find a better deal to move Boozer.
In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!
OKC would be just as disinclined
to help Utah as the Jazz would be to helping us, without realizing at least SOME benefits themselves. The Tim Thomas trade scenario only makes sense from a “Utah needs this more than anyone” viewpoint. Taking Tim Thomas is the price they pay for being able to easily retain Millsap – the guy they REALLY want to keep.
If any team of the 3 should eat it, it’s Utah…
Are you a Mexi-CAN or a Mexi-CAN'T?
Sorry
I read your post incorrectly. Option #2 seems fair for all. If Chicago wants Boozer, Chicago will have to ship Tyrus Thomas to Utah. If Chicago insists on substituting Tim Thomas for Tyrus Thomas, Utah will call OKC (trade Boozer to OKC for $2,500,000 of salary).
I'm sure they tried already.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
I think option #2 has only been offered
On internet message boards, especially Blazersedge. KP/Nate want to keep Blake, even if that means not upgrading the starting PG position at all
Bayless will help or hurt his stock next week in Vegas, both in the eyes of the Blazers and Chicago. I think option #1 will have legs if Chicago likes what they see re: Jerryd in summer league versus Portland being more tepid re: JB’s performance
Hinrich-Blake would be a NBA championship-caliber PG combination for at least 3 years. If Bayless was dealt in the Boozer-Hinrich deal, there will be multiple opportunities to replace him via trades and draft picks during that time period . I don’t let Rex’ “potential” become the impediment that prevents upgrading the PG position, improving the perimeter defense, and re-assigning Blake to the backup PG role where he is best suited.
Finally, if the Bulls insist that Bayless be included in the deal, I would also try to extract an unprotected #1 draft choice in return. Let them pick the year
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Jul 11, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
If that's the case
then Chicago was insane to nix trade #2
"Life is a meaningless sequence of events in between Blazer championships"
by broggerboy19 on Jul 11, 2009 2:08 AM PDT up reply actions
My thoughts...
The Jazz, if they resign Millsap (which I expect them to do), are going to need to dump a ton of Salary space. What if, instead of us giving up Bayless now, we give up Blake, and then Utah ends up adding another player to go to Chicago. Solely because they can’t afford them. They just resigned extended Mehmet Okur’s contract, so they’re looking to be in the penalty for a long, long time. Now, its just a matter of how deep for them.
dunno who else the Jazz have that Chicago would want
Probably someone like Kosta Koufos, but I know the Jazz organization is very high on him. But you’re right, it would likely take a sweetener from the Jazz to the Bulls to git ’er done.
Uh, do you think you could draw me like a ninja?
The Bulls won't make a trade
that puts them in the luxury tax. So that limits the amount of available players to be packaged with Boozer to send to Chicago.
i suppose you are right
i thought it was about cap space. i do think everybody picked a really inapropriate time for all this crap talk about roy. it reminds me of my 3 year old nephew. i absolutely believe blazer brass that roy and aldridge are not going anywhere. i think fa issues are the most important thing right now and frankly i am surprised roy doesnt care about improving the team also. all the other untouchables are out trying to get their friends in and be contenders. i guess they already got theirs. to me its a case of self centered fear and getting his. yeah i understand as a insurance policy incase of getting injured in practice or fear that his max deal wont be as max after next year. im glad he isnt involved in any decisions really because i remember a couple years ago him saying he didnt want any big name point guards next to him, that he wanted those duties. this sounds bad but in my opioning that is more of a touches and reaching the max deal than being the leader. what happened to the agent 0’s willing to take less so that the team can bring in more talent or artest or shaq taking a lesser role just to make the team better. anyway ya i want to keep roy and believe he is not going anywhere, i also like his good natured (ability to keep his mouth shut) and leadership qualities. despite those redeming qualities winning is more important to me.
have to quibble with this
i am surprised roy doesnt care about improving the team also
In his radio interview today, he pretty much said the exact opposite. But he’s in a positioin right now where he really can’t do that, for obvious reasons which he laid out pretty well.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
Bosh called Hedo
Then why did Bosh call Hedo (while supposedly still in Portland) and ask him to come play with the Raptors? Bosh is on a shorter contract then Roy.
by ItsMrHarris2u on Jul 11, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Maybe there's a referral fee in his contract.
by MiledAnimal on Jul 11, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
who knows
there could be a bunch of reasons. I would start with the fact that Bosh is already on a big time contract, getting paid max money, and is not currently trying to negotiate and extension. Roy has never gotten a big contract and is in the middle of negotiating RIGHT NOW. he would potentially lose negotiating power if he’s telling free agents “hey, come join us. don’t worry, im not going anywhere”
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
Negotiating about fixed positions is never a good way to get everyone what he wants
Negotiating about your interests is. The Blazers should make it clear to the agency of Roy and LaMarcus what it is they worry about. The new CBA, which doesn’t make much sense, since it will likely drive prices for average players down but for stars up, so by signing for 5 years Roy would likely give up money by not reaching his third contract sooner. The injury situation. How many young players they need to re-sign too. Or just the flexibility. At least they should explain it to the players. Roy is under contract, so it’s not like it would be tampering to tell him they ideally want him to remain a Blazer forever (which e.g. the Bulls failed to do with Ben Gordon, even as a gesture of goodwill). Then they can get to a solution that satisfies everybody without frustrating and potentially alienating the player. If you manage to alienate Roy, good luck not alienating the much more sensitive and not rooted in the NW LaMarcus and Oden.
As for Millsap, I feel the same that the Jazz will do everything to ultimately match it even though it’s more than they wanted to give up. In the end, all KP will likely get out of this is making the financial situation of another team worse. Or having another free agent use the Blazers to drive up his price, from whichever perspective you want to see it. Agent wants a better deal for his player? Go talk to the Blazers. Not exactly what is usually meant with “attractive free agent destination”.
As for Nate, I respect his intention to always extend for just one year if the team wants him back. It gives him flexibility, but also puts the burden of having to prove himself every year on him. With just one season left, a team wouldn’t hesitate to fire a coach they don’t want anymore. In that regard hats of to him.
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
Good point
Thought it seems that the channels of communication are restricted more or less to the agents and the front office at this point, and all the direct soothing and stroking with the players will happen after the ink dries.
"Life is a meaningless sequence of events in between Blazer championships"
by broggerboy19 on Jul 11, 2009 2:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Btw CBA is Collective Bargaining Agreement for those missing that detail.
What is the Collective Bargaining Agreement?
It’s the legal contract between the league and the Players Association that sets up the rules by which they all operate. (It’s commonly abbreviated as “CBA,” which is not to be confused with the Continental Basketball Association. The abbreviation CBA will be used in the remainder of this document.)
The CBA defines the salary cap, the procedures for determining how it is set, the minimum and maximum salaries, the rules for trades, the procedures for the NBA draft, and hundreds of other things that need to be defined in order for a league like the NBA to function.
Incidentally, the CBA is also what prevents the NBA from being in violation of antitrust laws. Many of the NBA’s practices (salary cap, draft, etc.) would violate the Sherman act were the CBA not arrived at through collective bargaining.
B.S. Liberal Studies OSU '06
Trade for Gerald Wallace!!
The new CBA, which doesn’t make much sense, since it will likely drive prices for average players down but for stars up, so by signing for 5 years Roy would likely give up money by not reaching his third contract sooner
Here’s another way to look at it, from Vulcan’s perspective.
It’s already been reported that the salary cap will decrease next year. So it’s in Portland’s best interest to delay signing any LTC until next summer, when the “max” numbers will be slightly lower, and then averaged out over the length of the deal(s)
Now, everybody knows that the Blazers will take a huge PR “hit” if they wait that long and let next summer’s “market” dictate what Roy/LMA are worth. But the Vulcans also know that the agency that represents Roy/LMA will be anxious to sign a deal this offseason, based on the 2009 salary cap numbers.
So, this becomes a high-stakes game of “chicken” and the ageny has the biggest “weapon” which is Brandon’s good name and unimpeachable status in the Portland community. You can be sure that Roy will be coached what to say and how to present himself to take full advantage of his reputation
As fans, it’s important to know that we are going to get “played” (by both sides) until the final decision is reached and one side “blinks” (or a compromise is reached) Try not to take it personally, it’s just “business” and it’s not In Roy/LMA’s best long-term financial interest to leave Portland
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Jul 11, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Good analysis
"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder
ill say this again, because it important
if Roy signs a max deal, the amount of money he actually gets will be EXACTLY the same whether he signed last week or next summer after the new cap, or at any point in between. Just like the numbers for Deron and CP3 new contracts just got calcuated, even though they signed the deal last summer, so would Roy’s final numbers be calculated next summer even if he signs now
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
Getting to Yes?
The Michael Ruffin of BlazersEdge, cuz Amlmart said so.
by BlazersOrBust on Jul 11, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
by the way Dave
what a fitting choice of picture, and nice job on the caption.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
by douglast on Jul 11, 2009 1:27 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
i missed it
but true there isnt that much he can do. im not sure everyone isnt hamstrung financially by pa. ok im a conspiracy theorist.
Good Stuff Dave, I was stressing a bit on Broy and LA.
One thing I always bring up and stress is don’t these Blazers realize that 3-5mill less in a contract to them isn’t a crisis, unless they want 5 homes and buy everyone in their family a yatch(which I know many will send TONS of money to extended family).
Of course it’s the ever important EGO factor that I can’t even really begin to comprehend on that level. All your life you are THE MAN. Grade school, middle school, high school, college. At some point, you know you have a pretty damn good chance at “The League.” So Ego+1 again and again.
But why I ask, WHY don’t more players do that KG/Allen/Pierce did? Be slightly more humble(read $3-5mill less each) and DOMINATE for a few years and win some championships? Isn’t it time where this was EN VOGUE?
Or has our proffesional sports system and society been completly maimed by the gluttony of greed?
And what a better city to make such a statement than grass-roots progressise P-town, a place I believe in it’s core is much more down to earth than many NBA cities, and would honor such financial sacrfices with daily adjulations.
I think all the number crunching this off season has really left a bad taste in my mouth and reminded me of why I historically prefer college over pros.
B.S. Liberal Studies OSU '06
Trade for Gerald Wallace!!
by TyboOSU on Jul 11, 2009 3:04 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Monopoly Money
Also…the sheer amount proffesonal athletes have raked in the last few decades is absurd.
How much does one need to be happy/comfortable/safe/healthy etc etc? Imagine a MAX yearly contract of 1million for the NBA super stars. Maybe no beach house in the Bahamas…maybe no 100 person in-home theater…maybe no 10 pimped out cars…but wouldn’t their needs be met? Wouldn’t their extended family also get a decent chunk of change to help out?
I’m reminded of Warren Buffet who famously drives around an old beater of a car but is FILTHY STINKING RICH. That to me is just plain awesome, albiet a little silly because the dude could AT least get a new $15k Honda or something lol and still be considered frugal minded.
Imagine a Blazer crusing downtown in an old VW Camper Van. Or riding the Max to go to the Zoo. Or buying a home next door to a YMCA. Or using Craigslist to buy videogames. Where is their normalcy of the common person? Where has it gone?
Whelp, my 3am diatribe is about done, and ultimately it is a mute point, but considering our post bubble econonmy here in the world, I think many athletes and fat cats in general need to rethink how they spend and generate their money.
Bring on the CBA.
B.S. Liberal Studies OSU '06
Trade for Gerald Wallace!!
I think about such a lot.
“I’ve got to take care of my family” we often hear. How many families though? You, your significant other and your kids? Your kids’ eventual families? Where does it stop?
The kind of money we’re seeing paid to the big stars these days is absurd. I’ve squawked about this a little in the past and the retort I’ve received is “why not give it to the players rather than making the owners even richer than they are”. But why couldn’t the money saved from slashing these enormous salaries translate to equal slashing of ticket costs, the prices for arena food and beverage, team gear etc.
There is so much greed out there and it is appalling to see these players (driven by their agents) to try to suck every dime (a dime equating to a million in the NBA world) out of the system. I’ve wondered if it would help to compensate the agents only on a salary basis as opposed to commissions.
This greed for more and more no matter how much you already have is such an ugly part of today’s game and it is too reminiscent of the similar greed we’ve recently observed by the banking industry and other big businesses that almost (maybe still will) bring our country (and the world?) to it’s knees.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
A family can live just fine for life off the interest of a million dollars.
Anything beyond that is greed.
Keep in mind that everything I know about basketball I learned on Blazers Edge.
When is a million dollars not a million dollars?
When the federal, state, and local governments take half of it right off the top.
There’s nothing greedy or wrong with earning every dollar the market will pay. What you do with your time and money is what matters. A guy living in his parents’ basement blogging all day is probably living a way more self-indulgent manner than any professional athlete.
by MiledAnimal on Jul 11, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
I guess if you're a capitalist. Doesn't make sense to me personally.
Keep in mind that everything I know about basketball I learned on Blazers Edge.
Since you asked.
I think it’s wrong to take and use more than a certain amount of money, regardless of how you earned it.
Keep in mind that everything I know about basketball I learned on Blazers Edge.
As a libertarian minarchist, I wholeheartedly disagree with your stance.
Then again, I find that collectivists are usually folks who spout off smug, holier-than-thou hogwash when it comes to spreading the wealth and all that sort of trite, hackneyed mumbo-jumbo.
As human beings, it’s our natural insticts to be selfish and hoard resources — whether it’s food, land, money, et cetera — for our own benefit. Regardless of whether or not that inhrent selfishness is considered to be a negative trait, it’s a trait nonetheless. My advice to you and those of whom who share your mindset would be to, well, deal with it.
I notice you are feistier on Saturdays.
I’m glad — though a bit surprised — to see you survived your little imbroglio this morning with your BSedge benefits intact.
by MiledAnimal on Jul 11, 2009 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
If it's about TiH, I just feel that his excessive, over-the-top sarcasm ...
gets tiresome. Yet, even though I find his shtick to be shlock, there’s no denying that some folks get a kick out of it, so who am I to hate on him.
Heck, I’m sure several people find my incessant ranting and raving over stuff to be gimmicky in its own right; thus, it’s definitely hypocritical of me to take shots at others for their own personal style.
We all have something to complain about
I just do it with sarcasm and you do it with more “howevers” (657 to date) than Stephen A. Smith and a holier, yet atheist, than though stance than a street preacher. Please, don’t drag me into your rants.
J Bay Bay is the best nick name ever.
by tominhawaii on Jul 11, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Ah, AK1984 : Stephen A. Smith :: TiH : Phil Hendrie.
Now, I’d personally compare myself more to a Doug Gottlieb type than Smith; however, the analogy is still a decent one either way.
Yes, I did use “however” in that above paragraph.
I'm surprised you don't like his sense of humor.
He and Mortimer are two of the most creatively witty folks I’ve ever read. Tom uses sarcasm sometimes, but that’s just one of the tools in his bag. He jokes about his nuts a lot more.
I respect your knowledge and intelligence, but there’s room for everyone here. Except for those twenty-somethings who comment back and forth in the junk drawer like middle-schoolers sitting in the cafeteria texting each other.
by MiledAnimal on Jul 11, 2009 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yep, my overuse of conjunctions like "however" is nowhere ...
near as annoying as seeing lame terms such as “lub” in the junk drawer time and time again. That’s their whole deal, though, and the junk drawer is meant to be used in that laid back manner, so I don’t mind it whatsoever.
Anyway, I totally agree that Mortimer is witty — which is why I like his wry sense of humor — however, he also oftentimes brings hard-hitting basketball knowledge to the table, which makes him a well-rounded poster.
In essence, it’s just a stylistic clash between TiH and I. Although I appreciate the occasional snark, he seems to use it as a crutch to compensate for being one-dimensional.
Again, though, I’ve got no right to complain, somce there’s many things people can justifiably knock me for — such as my brash, impetuous rants — and there’s no denying that whatsoever.
Your criticism of Tom applies to me, too.
I have nowhere near the knowledge of basketball or the intricacies of the CBA that you and other posters have. Surely you don’t think that only “well-rounded posters” should be allowed to participate in Blazersedge?
What really chaps my hide is that jscot could post a photocopy of his butt and he’d get 50 recs for it.
At least 100
My wife would join Bedge, probably with multiple identities so she could rec it over and over.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Best place to get it
by far.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
What you are describing
I’m reminded of Warren Buffet who famously drives around an old beater of a car but is FILTHY STINKING RICH. That to me is just plain awesome, albiet a little silly because the dude could AT least get a new $15k Honda or something lol and still be considered frugal minded.
This is the difference between old money and new money. Old drives the beater, new drives the Bentley. Read Paul Fussell’s Class for a humorous analysis of this phenominon.
What does Brandon Jennings drive?
Keep in mind that everything I know about basketball I learned on Blazers Edge.
I thought his mouth was driving him
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
I don't blame the athletes for trying to get what they can under the system
But I think it’s going to be kind of interesting over the next couple of years to watch contract negotiations with the correction the “market” seems to be making, both naturally as the consequences of really huge and bad deals become recognized, and as a result of the economy shifting the cap. Throw on top of that a pending new CBA, and it should be really interesting. Athletes/agents will likely continue to argue value based at least in part on contracts signed in previous years, but owners and clubs largely aren’t going to have those kind of resources to spread out.
Of course, there always seems to be at least one club throwing around the money – $100M+ for Hedo and Bargnani, anyone?
In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!
Stockholm syndrome
I like the cheery outlook but there is no way to deny that KP is messing up big time. He could have drafted Marc Gasol. He could have drafted Kevin Durant. He could have traded RLEC. He could have drafted Blair. He’s alienating his franchise player…
I could go on for days. KP has jumped the shark. No sugar coated Dave post can hide that. There is like a 1,000 KP mistakes and just one good draft that resulted in a franchise player, a soft jump shooting power forward, and the ability to move up from 38th to 31st in a weak draft.
KP hasn’t done jack. The sooner fans realize that, the better.
J Bay Bay don't play that. J Bay Bay 2010 'Zers starting point guard over B Rex.
by tominhawaii on Jul 11, 2009 3:56 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
To use a baseball analogy, if Millsap doesn't sign that would be strike two this summer
- Foul-ball on draft night
- Strike 1 Hedo
- Strike 2 Millsap
- Strike 3 ?
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
Actually, fouls counts as strikes buddy
So in your scenario Millsap IS strike 3.
Good analogy. Here's mine using boxing:
- Defensive stance, no punches thrown on draft night
- Dodged sweeping right hook by Hedo contract
- Left jab to Utah’s chin with Millsap offer
Darius Miles Tribute Vid
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
Actually if you know baseball you know that one at-bat is insignificant in a season
Let us continue the analogy;
1st at bat LaMarcus Aldridge →→→ home run!
2nd at bat: Brandon Roy →→→ Grand slam home run!
3rd at bat: Sergio Rodriguez →→→ single
4th at bat: Joel Freeland →→→ postponed due to rain
5th at bat: Joel Pryzbilla →→→ double
6th at bat: Greg Oden →→→ home run!
7th at bat: Rudy Fernandez →→→ double
8th at bat: Signed Steve Blake FA →→→ double
9th at bat: Re-signed Travis Outlaw to a reasonable contract with team option →→→ single or double
10th at bat: Petteri Kopenen →→→ postponed due to ice
11th at bat: Jerryd Bayless →→→ rounding 1st base digging for second
12th at bat: Nicolas Batum →→→ rounding 2nd and digging for 3rd
13th at bat: Victor Claver →→→ postponed due to ?
Now there are others including James Jones and various draft choices but sticking to 1st round and free agency starter/rotation players you can see that grumbling about postponements is rather minor. Ten hits in 13rd at bats is phenomenal especially when considered with all the relief of difficult character players and that most other players in the game only got to bat 4 or 5 times during this period. This is not a career and there will be many more at- bats but you must know the pitchers are pitching around KP now as everyone is worried about him. Each hit becomes harder to achieve but less important to the team. Those earlier hits keep on hitting for the most part and so this trajectory is off the charts and HOF bound. (If they can induct Dick Vitale into the HOF then KP should be a slam dunk home run).
You forgot to include the smiley face Tom.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
Frankly, malcontent like this is welcome (at least it is for me)
If you’ve followed any pro team on a message board for any amount of time, you know the drill. The coach and the GM are going to get second-guessed to death and there is going to be a segment of die-hard fans that will want to “show them the door!” Yes, it can get tiresome but it also sparks intelligent debates that reveal a lot more meaningful information than a chorus of “in KP we trust” replies. KP has had one of the longest “honeymoon” periods of any GM for any pro team that I can think of, and it’s been well-deserved. But I can’t say that I’m surprised (or disappointed) that he’s finally starting to hear some dissent from the fanbase. This, my friends, is the definition of the word “inevitable”
Having said that, the only Blazer fans that could really affect actual “changes” at the coach/GM positions for any ballclub are the season ticket holders and corportate suite owners/advertisers. The rest of us peons (this list includes the media and internet bloggers, BTW) won’t have any meaningful influence on the decision-makers unless “we” can change the buying habits of the season ticket holders or corporate advertisers. This is what happened in 2003-2004 and ushered in the current regime, and I strongly doubt that this level of dis-satisfaction will be reached again for the next 5 years at the earliest, and that’s only if the Blazers do everything they can to screw this thing up
So rant away, and we’ll brace ourselves for the chorus of “in KP we trust” defenders of “the faith” But if that chorus gets weaker in the coming months and the “what the _ does KP think he’s doing?!” noise gets louder, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Especially not for Dave’s website traffic.
Eh, Mr. Decker?
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
tom - What do Oklahoma fans have to do with anything?
I don’t see why you’re concerned at all about what Sooner fans have or have not realized and….ohhhh, I see….nevermind……
Again, tom...
your panic has clouded your judgment…
With the blast shield down, you can’t see the training probe. Since you are not, obviously, a Jedi, just raise the blast shield and you will see things more clearly.
Seriously…chill out…
Are you a Mexi-CAN or a Mexi-CAN'T?
WOW ! The lack of . . .
understanding & patience is unbelievable !
1. Signing Turk would have been Horrible.
a. Career poor FG shooter who needs the ball in his hands.
b. Another poor wing defender not helping our team D.
c. A player who would take away from our great team chemistry
by needing touches & shots, when the Blazers have a nice
balance now with BRoy & Smooth in the starting lineup. Not
to mention when GO gets comfortable in the post and will need
attempts to get comfortable and improve.
2. The Blazers went from 41 wins to 54 with the youngest rotation in
the league, without Martell and with rookies GO, Rudy, Batuuuum &
BRex all due to make strides this summer and coming season.
3. Kevin “Bones” Durant ??????
This has been discussed ad naseum !!! Who cares !! He’s a jack it up
skinny gunner who needs to be # 1, 2 & 3 option. He would not fit with the well
rounded team we have developed. End of story !
4. Marc Gasol ??? Huhh ?? We have Greg Oden & Joel ! Enough said !
5. Could have traded RLEC ?? For who ?? Vince Carter ?? Richard Jefferson ??
Or pehaps from the basement nerd files of NBALive ?? Video GM – RLEC for Devin Harris ?
or RLEC for CP3 ? Or some other inane comination !
6. Blair ??? -Weak knees ?? Sound familiar ? pehaps the doctors or scouts know something
that the ignorrant pseudo writers (journalists) don’t know.
7. Alienating Franchise player ???? How would you know ? Depending on Quick ?
The same guy that voted for Deron Williams -All league instead of that Franchise player
because he was an Olympian and had a great 07-08 ??? Very reliable. Great common sense.
In closing, TERRIBLE conclusions and arguements ! I’m very glad fans don’t run the Blazers
or anything else but . . .
and by the way . . .
COINCAST SUCKS !!!! COMING UP ON THE 3RD SEASON OF BLACKOUT !!!
GREAT DEAL, BLAZER’S BUSINESS MANAGEMENT !!!
It's GO time !
You are hit and miss here
1. Turkoglu may or may not have fit…who knows. He would have helped in some areas and not in others.
2. We can’t just rely on player improvement to get better. Sure, they probably will, but they won’t ADD anything, just do better at what they already do (if that makes sense).
3. Kevin Durant is a top ten player in the NBA and would indeed fit in very well here. He shoots a lot because he has to, obviously if he was on a team as deep as ours he’d still be option 1.5 (with Roy being the other 1.5), but he wouldn’t jack it up like he does in OKC because he wouldn’t have to.
4. If Oden doesn’t pan out (still a very real possiblity) Marc Gasol would have been a good pickup. But I don’t buy that as a mistake- hindsight is always 20/20 and Gasol wasn’t that highly rated.
5. Agreed on the trading of RLEC. All the deals we could have had wouldn’t have benefited us. Potential partners wanted us to deal Batum, Bayless, Rudy, etc.
6. Way too early to tell on Blair, but I bet he would have had a bigger impact on this team than anyone we actually drafted.
7. It turns out all the major stories JQ broke this past week were true. He reported on us offering a toxic deal to Millsap two days before it happened. He mentioned troubles resigning Roy, which Roy later confirmed. And he mentioned McMillan getting extended before it happened. Quick has a lot of inside information and to my knowledge is far, far more often right than wrong. He’s extremely reliable, and just because you are upset by the material he reports doesn’t make him any worse of a beat writer.
And finally, yes, Comcast is terrible.
Hit & Misssss . . .
1. My opinion of course. Based on 35 years as a Blazermanic and longer
as a player & coach, player analysis is my speciality.
2. Of course not, but with young players, good coaching and great team chemistry,
improvement can be 15 to 20 % in any given year. In the case of most rookies, it’s
well documented that the most improvement comes between the end of rookie year
through the sophomore season. I’d say that in GO, Batuuuum, Rudy and especially BRex
this will be the case. On top of that principle, with each of those players improving,
others (BRoy, Smooth, Blake, etc) will have more open opportunities, team defense
will tighten and general offensive flow will improve. Won’t ADD anything, I disagree !
3. Kevin Durant is not in the top 10 in my opinion. Since he didn’t make any All-Nba team,
he obviously isn’t in a lot of other NBA coaches, writers, scouts minds. This has been
debated here for a long time, and you are entitled to your opinion, but he’s a gunner.
Defender – slightly above average (depending on match-up), rebounder – below average,
Passer – below average. Yes he can shoot, but the Blazers have a great balance, with
Roy as the initiator, Smooth – low post threat & great face up shooter (off p & r/ P & P),
Blake & Rudy – Spot up shooters, & GO – soon to be a low post monster. Not to mention
Batum as a slasher / improving spot up shooter. (Not needing shots). Add to that group
a healthy (crossed fingers) Martell who will be every bit the 3 point threat of KBone, you have
a nice balance. I disagree about him being a good fit, but if you want to play the “could have
would have” game, go ahead !
4. If GO dosen’t pan out ??? Another Simmons. Look at his rebounding #‘s and minutes played,
in his rookie year. Since you are a KBone guy, compare his FG % numbers in his rookie year
to sophomore year. Are we to suppose that GO needs to score 20 + a game to pan out ? Real
Blazermaniacs knew he was raw offensively. Two years ago the Blazers were near the
bottom of the NBA in rebounding, but last year near the top. GO is a rebounder, defensive
intimidator and low post garbage center. His defense will get better with experience, learning
the team NBA defense & referee’s and cutting out the stupid fouls that hampered his minutes.
When he played 30 minutes in a game, his numbers were very good. Another year removed
from MF surgery will help as well.
Marc Gasol is a good player, but " could have. would have" again.
6. Hopefully we will get Millsap. A proven banger, great rebounder and team guy. You can never
have too many tough, high energy big men and injuries happen. I like Pendergraph as a
Banger in training !
7. Quick is ok. I don’t dislike him, just don’t particularily like ‘he said, he said gossip". Roy & the
Blazers will be fine. As a lifelong hardcore basketball fan with a good understanding of
economics, the negotiations of contracts is something that is difficult. Nobody really believes,
regardless of reporting, that the Blazers are going to stiff Roy. It’s so out of the realm of
common sense, I’ve just dismissed Quick & ESPN’s reporting as fodder. They have to sell
papers / create controversy !
. . . and yes they do SUCK.
After years of attending 8 to 10 games per year (long distance), the business management hasn’t gotten my cash for two years. Cancelling TV has been a good thing
for my work and reading time as well !
It's GO time !
You can never have too many tough, high energy big men and injuries happen
Yes. It’s good to see KP adding to his quality big man stable. There is no reason to “subtract” a big if Millsap does make it to PDX. Insurance against injuries, depth so the “stupid fouls” aren’t so costly and more rest for everyone so they’ll be fresh at the end of the regular season are all benefits of keeping all “4 quality big men” around
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
OK, but...
Don’t you think that stalling on signing Brandon Roy is hurting KP’s play in free agency?
I think this is what’s frustrating Roy more than his own contract. He can’t be in play bringing other guys to the team, the way most franchise players are. He can’t be welcoming Turkoglu to Portland and showing him around. He can’t be on the phone to Brandon Bass saying, “Hey, why don’t you wait on that offer from Orlando for a few days and see what my guy’s got up his sleeve.”
Recruiting is a prestige part of the franchise player’s job, and in a market like Portland, we need our guy on the phone. And Brandon’s frozen, and all these guys we’re interested in aren’t interested in us. I think it’s a mistake.
Another scenario
Since BRoy and LMA have the same agent, maybe the agent is negotiating both contracts at once. LMA said he didn’t deserve the same contract as BRoy, but not what he would settle for.
On the Millsap deal, The ball is in Utah’s hands. We are in the driver’s seat not the Bulls. We don’t need to do anything. They have to come to us.
hg
Dave is right about BRoy being a Blazer, but there are still valid reasons for concern
It’s pretty rare that I find myself disagreeing with Dave, but Dave got this one wrong.
Yes, he is correct that this isn’t about Brandon Roy. But the theory that this is about setting a pattern for future negotiations doesn’t fit what little we know about the situation. No one with access to inside information or off-the-record conversations has suggested that.
But I will agree, we don’t need to worry about whether or not Brandon Roy will be a Blazer long term. We do need to worry about who is calling the shots at Blazers HQ.
Look at the news that has come out over the last few days. We have the following reporting from Cazano:
Then, on Thursday, Tod Leiweke, the head of Vulcan Sports and Entertainment said: "Paul Allen shouldn’t subsidize the Blazers to be in Portland and we’re getting closer and closer to that magical break-even number which Paul’s asked for."
Is there anyone else surprised to see the Vulcans fielding this question? Why wasn’t this quote handled by Larry Miller? Shouldn’t he be answering questions about the Blazers financial situation?
BTW, I love the dig at Portland in the quote. Paul Allen isn’t simply subsidizing the Blazers so that they can be successful. He is subsidizing them so they can “be in Portland.” You don’t have to read between the lines much to understand what Mr. Leiweke thinks about the Blazers and Portland.
And then if you listen to Jason Quick’s interview on 1080 yesterday at:
http://audio.1080thefan.com/m/audio/24844918/jason-quick-7-10-09.htm
You’ll hear that the decision to not pay Roy is coming from outside the organization. Quick says flat out that it is coming from Paul Allen and theorizes it might have to do with his health issues.
Regardless of why the hard line negotiations are happening, the end result is not only frustrating for Roy, but apparently frustrating for Kevin Pritchard as well. Quick talks carefully here, but it is pretty clear that the Blazers front office may be just as frustrated if not more frustrated than Roy.
Finally, we have a striking disconnect between the word that Paul Allen said to “Go for it,” and the comments of Tod Leiweke and the baffling decision to haggle over a fifth year for Roy.
My points are these:
- We can speculate that this is a negotiating tactic, but we have no insider evidence to support it. You can argue that Cazano and Quick aren’t reliable, but you can’t offer any else to support the idea that they are setting a precedent for future discussions with Roy.
- We have several data points that suggest that decisions are suddenly being made out of Seattle instead of Portland, and that contrary to the idea of “going for it,” we may be in for a return of the penny-pinching vulcans.
- We are right to not be concerned about Roy long term. I see no way he isn’t a Blazers.
- We also appear to have many reasons to be concerned about the Vulcans reasserting influence in the organization and what that might mean for a team that really turned things around when they not only started improving the character of the organization, but regained the trust of Paul Allen and the autonomy to make decisions.
I am concerned about the organization and what these data points mean for its promising future. This would not be the first time a sports franchise on the path to great things screwed things up.
The only problem is that your "multiple data points" all come from Canzano and Quick.
I haven’t seen any reports from other writers indicating anything similar. Now maybe JQ, JC, and The Oregonian have the best sources within the team and can get information that other reporters can’t, but I don’t really buy that.
Additionally, if the handling of Roy’s extension really is a negotiating tactic, then there wouldn’t be any confirmation from inside sources. Any leak from the team indicating that this is a negotiating tactic would completely undermine what they’re trying to do. To use Dave’s poker analogy, it would be tipping your hand to the other player. And if it is just a tactic, I imagine KP would actually like to let Brandon know, but as he’s said he doesn’t want to get in between the player and the agent during the renegotiation (and you never know what Brandon might tell his agent and/or LMA about it). So if it’s true, I’m not surprised we haven’t heard anything about it.
Yeah I figured that would be the argument
It’s pretty easy on Blazersedge to dismiss what Cazano and Quick write or say. Earlier this week the site was filled with people attacking Quick saying he made up the conflict over Roy’s extension.
BTW, Cazano has a quote from Vulcan. Unless you are arguing he made up the quote entirely, I think his information and source can be considered fairly solid.
I also do believe that Jason Quick has better sources than other reporters. Why do we consider Brian Windhorst of the Cleveland Plain Dealer to have the best information on what is happening with the Cavs and Lebron, but think Quick who has been covering the team for years on a daily basis doesn’t have the best sources at the Blazers.
I’ll give you that if this is a negotiating tactic that they wouldn’t tip their hands. That’s a valid point.
I guess we will see how this shakes out. I’m just not pinning my hopes on idle speculation that this a a negotiating tactic. I think there is a good chance that there are behind the scenes power struggles going on in the organization.
BTW, Cazano has a quote from Vulcan. Unless you are arguing he made up the quote entirely, I think his information and source can be considered fairly solid.
I wouldn’t put it past him…
When was the quote from?
JC takes great liberty with quotes. As evidence you can listen to what he said about Roy’s 50/50 on the contract getting done. He called it 50/50 that Roy stays a Blazer. I have little doubt that that was a real quote. I’d just like to know when he got it, and what was actually said.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
Thursday KP said "the negotiations are amicable, they're going to be here for a long time"
On Friday, Roy was on with Softy (on a Seattle radio station, but everyone knows he was talking to Portland) and said he was unhappy with the results of the negotiations
Anyone who can’t see what’s going on here hasn’t been to enough rodeos
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Those may be points, but they're not data points.
Using data in there doesn’t make them sound any more convincing.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
Fair enough. How about one side has sources not speculation?
If I could edit the description I used, I would.
How’s this for a more succinct version that doesn’t use “data points.”
On the one side we have:
- Sources inside the organization telling reporters that Paul Allen is behind the problems resigning Roy.
- Sources inside the organization telling reporters that Kevin Pritchard is frustrated.
- An on the record quote from the CEO of Vulcan saying that Paul Allen shouldn’t subsidize the Blazers.
All of which point to the likelihood of belt tightening and conflict between Portland’s front office and Vulcan management.
On the other side, you have speculation that this is part of the Blazers plan to lay the groundwork for negotiations with future players. There are no sources inside the organization nor on-the-record comments supporting the idea of this plan.
So one side has sources and information. The other doesn’t. That what I meant by my poor choice of the phrase “data points.”
Dave wrote:
Is it Pritchard? Is it Allen? Is it the Vulcan execs? That’s not the critical point here.
I disagree. It is the critical point here.
I have faith Roy will be signed. Even the suits will see that is a sound business decision.
I worry about the direction of the franchise if decisions are being driven by Seattle. It is particularly worrisome if KP is in conflict with Vulcan over simple things like a contract extension for the franchise player.
You have put your finger on the weakness of your argument
So one side has sources and information. The other doesn’t.
The other side is Blazer management and they are not saying anything except Brandon will be a Blazer for a long time.
The quote is taken out of context. Vulcan is a business which, no doubt like any business, borrows money and gets credit extended to them on a regular basis. A quote from Vulcan would be a quote directed at the prospect of making money as any lender would want before extended credit. Look at startup and takeover businesses and they lose money but have a plan to make money in the near or mid term. That plan cannot state that there will always be this hemorrhaging of cash or the lenders will shy away.
Mr Leiweke is also in tune with he negotiating process in Portland. If you walk into a car dealership and flash a huge roll of thousand dollar bills don’t expect to buy a car at a discount. If you state what he apparently stated you say there is not an endless supply of Paul Allen’s money. That is simply good business. It may also be the good cop bad cop tactic of KP being optimistic and Tod being ominous.
In the meantime the Toxic Twins get fans all riled up to read their drivel. Anything coming from Canzano or Quick should be sanitized because it has come through their alimentary canals.
the end result is not only frustrating for Roy, but apparently frustrating for Kevin Pritchard as well. Quick talks carefully here, but it is pretty clear that the Blazers front office may be just as frustrated if not more frustrated than Roy.
Brian Wheeler intimated this on his radio show yesterday. Something to the effect of “there’s more going on here than what is being seen on the surface” Wheels can’t say what that is (publicly) but I think Canzano is sniffing under the right tree
Part of KP’s job description is to be the “face” of team management and to look the cameras in the eye and “carry the water” for the organization. If he appears “haggard” for bearing all of this responsibility, well that’s why he’s getting the big bucks and he should be excused for accepting the kudos when things go well (54 wins, Rudy setting the rookie 3pt record, etc)
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
BTW, please listen to Quick's Interview
The relevant sections start at the 8 minute mark.
http://audio.1080thefan.com/m/audio/24844918/jason-quick-7-10-09.htm
Radio Host: “So that’s where this is comes from? From Paul Allen?”
Quick: “Absolutely. I think so. I don’t think there is any question. Yes. I’m going to say yes..”
Host: “Ok, so that brings up the point that if you’re Kevin Pritchard and he’s interfering like that and obviously it makes Pritchard look terrible, so at what point does Kevin Pritchard have a problem with Paul Allen and then you’ve got a big mess on your hands?”
Quick: “Well, I think we’re already to that point.”
Host: “You think Prtichard is bothered by all this?”
Quick: “He’s frustrated. Yes.”
It’s worth a listen.
since when has Quick been right on an "inside scoop" about the Blazers?
She Hate Me
"oh I served BRP all right
drained J-Kiddesque running floaters over him all night long last time we balled" - prezofdeath
How about Roy contract extension problems, Millsap offer, No CHI/UTA Trade
He isn’t right all the time, but he does pretty well and scooped everyone on the problems with Roy’s contract.
Earlier this week there was comment after comment attacking Quick for making up the problems with Roy’s contract. One day later, Roy’s agent confirms the problems. Two days later, Roy himself talks about it.
I prefer a more balanced perspective on Jason Quick. When he talks about things that he has sources for, he’s usually pretty good. When he starts speculating on what he thinks the team should do or will do, things get shakier.
That said, I saw enough dismissal of what Quick was saying earlier this week with regards to Roy’s contract to understand that the chances of people to take it seriously.
Cest la vie.
I was 100% with you, Dave, until the last paragraph, when this popped up:
If the organization doesn’t get him some veteran help at some point I could see Nate wanting the option to walk.
My only question: will people still be saying this sort of thing continually up to and beyond the point that Brandon retires? It sure seems like it.
The Blazers have PLENTY of “veteran help” on this team: Brandon and Blake and Pryz… There is no sense adding a bunch of 30-somethings to teach young players how to miss games with nagging injuries, etc.
The old teams of the Western Conference are fading before our eyes. The job is to stay young, not to get old.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jul 11, 2009 7:58 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
By the way, I COMPLETELY agree that the tough negotiations with Brandon are all about the forthcoming talks with LMA and Oden...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
What will Oden get?
It’ll be interesting to see how much Oden gets next year. Really this should be two parts, how much will he gets if he plays over and under 70 games?
I agree about us having veterans. Right now the l*kers, spurs, and celtics have a 2 year window and the cavs have a one year window depending on what Lebron does. After that it’ll be wide open. There are some veterans I wouldn’t mind seeing us trade for like Kirk, Prince, or Battier, but that’s because they’re good defenders, not because of the number of years they’ve played.
by terryisntbald on Jul 11, 2009 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm gonna adjust your windows a little
Lakers probably have three years, because even when Kobe slows down that’s a massively good team they have put together. Spurs have one year, maaaaybe two. Celtics I’d say is two, so we agree there. But on the Cavs, they will probably be a good team next year and I think that’s all it takes for Lebron to stay. Assuming we reach our full potential and become perennial title contenders, I’d say the Cavs would be our foil for at least six years.
This all, of course, is just my opinion.
I have been listening to this sing-song for 30 years
Do you really think the NBA is going to let the L*kers “fade”? Seriously, it’s not in David Stern’s financial best interest ot have a weak franchise in L*A. That “evil empire” never rebuilds, it reloads, annually. We saw it this past week with Artest willing to “take a paycut” to play in La-La land. It is a predictable as smog in OC, the “brand” will not be diminished, because the revenue will never be compromised
So, no more of this “let’s wait around until K*be retires” talk for me! When Bry*nt is “gone” there will be another superstar (or two) conveniently acquired to take his place. Stop looking to the future for your salvation, Blazer fans. “Poor little Portland” only gets players of Roy’s caliber at random intervals, almost by accident. This is no time to burn his prime producing years waiting for “pie in the sky” that typically gets delivered 1000 miles south of the Rose city, where the TV money resides
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Veteran help
I agree with you on this. Roy, Aldidge, Pryzbilla, Blake, Webster, Outlaw…it isn’t like these guys are without regular season experience. Now they have a playoff series under their belts. If the Jazz somehow let Millsap go to the Blazers, they are set up to let Joel walk after his contract is up or trade him next year as an expiring contract, or even sign him if he is still happy with his role of backing up Oden. All the while, the young kids are becoming veterans.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
or even sign him if he is still happy with his role
Knowing Joel’s behavior during past contract negotiations with Portland, this should have been you first point, not an afterthought
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
The afterthought...
was mainly out of respect for Joel. He has one more chance to sign a significant contract. No matter how much he may want to play here, someone else will probably offer him more money than the Blazers can pay if they extend Oden next summer. Reality may force the Blazers to move him before they lose him but I don’t think it will be this summer.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Joel can and likely will opt out after this year
Can he make more than $7.4M? I would think so and for another 4 or 5 years. He is worth starter money and would seem likely to get it. Ergo – we need another big.
I don't see Joel opting out of 7.4 guaranteed
He might but it probably wouldn’t be the smartest move as the cap is predicted to go down again over the next two years. It could backfire on him. Although a lot of teams are planning to have cap space next summer, so who knows.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
It doesn't really matter if we think the team has enough veterans.
As it relates to Dave’s point, It matters if NATE thinks there are enough veterans. And let’s be honest here: nobody on this team has played significant minutes in the playoffs except last year. I suspect that’s what Nate is referring to when he talks about bringing in veterans. He wants guys who have played on teams that won multiple playoff series and have played in the CF or Finals.
There are lots of veteran's that have been in the finals that isn't any better than our players.
Experience doesn’t necessarily make you better. In fact, it was the experience players in the NBA that scared the pudding out of our players, saying they had to do this and that, when all they had to do was go out and play their game that got them there.
hg
I'm not arguing that we definitely need more veterans, but I can also understand it from the coach's perspective.
I’m saying that Nate feels he needs players with more playoff experience to really have a real chance at the WCF or the Finals. He’s indicated his desire for adding more veterans numerous times, so it’s not a stretch to assume that he doesn’t think they have enough veterans on the team now. I’m not saying I agree with him on that, but it doesn’t seem like an absurd request given the team’s relative lack of playoff experience in comparison with other playoff teams in the WC (although that doesn’t mean that KP will necessarily acquiesce to it).
A year ago Timbo,
I disagreed or questioned almost everything you were professing. But lately I find myself in almost total agreement with nearly all of your posts. What is happening to me(?)?!
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
Agreed
Brandon, Blake, Pryz all have veteran chops. I’d argue that LMA is rapidly approaching this status and for rookies, both Rudy and Nic showed themselves to be surprisingly unflappable.
Once labeled a young team, it just seems to stick
Some still insist on calling the Bulls the Baby Bulls – and we’re on the third generation since the original crew.
In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!
You may have to win a couple of title before it goes away.
There are still references here and there about the Jail Blazers.
A good name is precious and easily lost. A bad name smells like poop and the stink lingers for decades.
by MiledAnimal on Jul 11, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
The Blazers have PLENTY of "veteran help" on this team: Brandon and Blake and Pryz
Isn’t it ironic that Steve and Joel’s names have come up regularly in Blazersedge trade proposals this week, depending on certain scenarios? (Millsap signing, Hinrich deal, etc)
There are a bunch of Blazer fans who seem to have a “Peter Pan syndrome” when it comes to the Blazer’s roster, they don’t want the “lost boys” to ever grow up. The future Blazer “rainbow” is right out there on the horizon, but it could vanish like a mirage if a policy of “let’s just let the cake bake” (until it’s burnt!) is followed to an unhappy conclusion.
NBA careers are like wildflowers, don’t assume that Brandon is going to be around forever. Roy and Nate asked for veteran help following the Houston series, and so far their “order” has yet to be filled. Part of this was out of KP’s control (Hedo) but every time I hear “the best deal out there may not come for another week, or month, etc” I cringe because I know they’re just one step closer to entering the regular season with the roster unchanged except for 2 rookies. Meanwhile, the rest of the WC contenders (except for Denver, but they just got Affalo, right?) have improved their chances of success.
I’m with Nate and Brandon on this one. The sting of “not advancing” past round 1 is not going to be brushed aside by the soothing promise of “everything’s going to be OK honey, just be patient” Life is too short to keep waiting around for that “special” fit that may never materialize.
It’s the risk-takers who succeed, not the passive
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I don’t think it’s veteran help, persay… it’s getting a player that’s been in a clutch situation before and succeeded. Thus, is Steve really a veteran in those terms? I like the guy, but he’s been pretty bad with the game on the line.
draft the stache
by Cablinasian on Jul 11, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually Steve made some huge plays late in games this year
Everyone seems to remember that 1 3point shot in the Houston series & forget the rest of the year.the other thing is Steve was gutting it out with a bad shoulder that needed surgury. I am one of the people that would like to see an upgrade at PG but I think alot of the criticism of Blake is just the grass is greener.
by We-B-Dunkin on Jul 11, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions
I’ve listed a list of his less-clutch moments. he had about four or five really bad plays to end games this year, as opposed to his one clutch moment in Toronto.
draft the stache
by Cablinasian on Jul 11, 2009 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
A shot doesn't need to be a game winner at the buzzer to be clutch.
by We-B-Dunkin on Jul 11, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I didn’t say it did. Do you have any specific clutch moments that Blake had that you would share? I am sure that I have forgotten some. 82 games is a long time.
However, I remember him losing the ball against Indiana to give them a layup within a minute, missing the free throws against the Clips, throwing the bad pass against Dallas in March, and airballing the three against Houston all of the top of my head.
draft the stache
by Cablinasian on Jul 11, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Jumping in late here
Why do we need Blake to be clutch? Roy hits big shots. Rudy hit some big shots against Houston. Aldridge has shown an ability to hit bit shots. It’s what Blake does for the first 40 minutes that make him important to this team.
There are only a handful of guys I would give up Blake for.
Blake had some big mistakes down the stretch that cost us games. Isn’t that just as important as the other 40 minutes?
I think Blake being suited to the first 40 minutes is true. It’s why I view him as a backup.
draft the stache
by Cablinasian on Jul 11, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm on the fence
I think KP/Nate will only deal Blake if there’s a clear upgrade that meets their specifications of a PG upgrade (they’re not as interested in replacing Steve with youngsters like Conley Jr, Rubio, etc right now) I’m talking about a veteran who can shoot and defend, like HInrich
But why get rid of Blake to bring in Cap’n Kirk, if it’s not necessary? Steve would be an awesome backup PG on a championship team. All of those late game “mistakes” that you remember would vanish when he’s coming out of the game mid-way through the 4th quarter after completing his “shift” and keeping the continuity going with the reserve unit while the starters get a blow. Steady, but not spectacular—that’s the formula for title-winning PGs and Kirk-Steve would provide those qualities in spades
Of course the downside to this idea is that Jerryd Bayless would never get a chance to play, but I’m willing to live with that. If Blake/Hinrich were to get seriously hurt, Nate would have a ready-made replacement in the pipeline
(BTW, check out my latest Devin Harris trade proposal in the sidebar, if you haven’t already)
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I would only want a clear upgrade at PG as well
With Oden/Batum/Rudy developing, and LMA and Roy needing a complementary player, I don’t think I’m in the mood to force feed a guy starter minutes to develop at the PG spot. I value the consistency and steadiness Blake brings.
At the same time, he isn’t athletic enough to defend today’s PGs, isn’t that good on the pick and roll, and can’t create a shot for himself or others very consistently. If we didn’t have Roy, we’d have even more problems with Blake as a starting PG. While Blake’s 3 point shooting is nice next to Roy, Roy covers Blake’s flaws more than Blake helps out Roys… and ideally, we want someone who can help Roy defensively, and to be a co-playmaker.
I think an upgrade at PG is the only position we really have to upgrade. But it needs to be an upgrade, and not just sumthin’ different.
Mortimer
But it needs to be an upgrade, and not just sumthin’ different
And it needs to be a veteran PG upgrade, not another kid in his teens or early 20s. Ideally you try to do what Denver did and add a guy who’s been through the playoff wars but still has some tread o his tires (as opposed to Kidd, Nash, etc)
It won’t be easy to find that “special fit” but the nice thing is that KP doesn’t have to “reach” for a solution that he hopes will pan out (Miller, Sessions?) because he has a steady starter and a fiery reserve PG all ready to go. I think he’ll add a veteran #3 PG who can shoot (Outlaw for Dooling?) and call it “good” unless NJ makes Harris available
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Because theoretically, he's supposed to be able to handle the ball.
He has two 4th quarter, game changing horrific turnovers in the Houston series that a professional PG shouldn’t be making.
It wasn’t just not clutch, it was choking.
by Free Bayless on Jul 11, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Blake's not perfect. Trade him!
The guy does a solid job 98% of the time. Just not good enough for some folks.
If the 2% occurs in the most critical moments of the season, I'm not ok with it.
by Free Bayless on Jul 11, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Kobe has terrible his first few playoff series
I bet LA wished they traded him.
Here are a couple
Big threes in both home Laker games and in the Celtic game. I think his runner in the lane against Yao in game 5 was a pretty big play. He hit big threes against Phoenix in Brandon’s 52 point game.
I can’t disagree with your list of flubs but Blake contributed much more than he took away, evidence = 54 wins. I think you have tunnel vision with Blake and are only seeing his weaknesses. The biggest contribution he makes is keeping a lot of the pressure off Roy when he is hitting his threes.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Utah Blog
I just looked online at the Utah Tribune blog about the Milsap offer and there were 2 blog entries…..kind of under whelming the interest or disinterest…. both of them did not seem to care if he left….hmmmmm
A BLAZER blog would be exploding!
Hell...
We’re getting comments on Frye’s free-agent signing with Phoenix. Let’s face it, we just love our players more.
Boozer going to Charlotte, Utah Matches Portland's Offer
Crystal ball time…
The Roy and Aldridge contract negotiations remind me of when I bought my house
We’re trying to come to an agreement with the sellers – yet we are not allowed to talk with each other directly. All communications go through the real estate agents. I felt like if we could just sit down over dinner, with the sellers, we could come to an amicable agreement, instead of getting the agents involved.
However, the Roy and Aldridge negotiations are an even stranger situation, b/c they have an existing relationship with KP already and aren’t allowed to communicate directly with him regarding the contract situation. And in terms of GM relationships with their players, KP seems to be pretty close with his. So, this close group of guys, now all of sudden in one of the most important decisions of their careers, cannot talk with each other about it. It’s weird.
I get it why the set up is this way. You don’t want it to become too personal. Nevertheless, it gets personal. And it drives me crazy how agents feel like they need to be in control of all aspects of the contract negotiations – and get upset, if god forbid, the 2 parties actually talk with each other. I can’t help but think that the agents don’t want the parties to talk directly with each other, b/c the agents are afraid that their clients will realize that they’re pretty much useless.
by JasonT on Jul 11, 2009 8:26 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Doesn't Gilbert Arenas do his own negotiations?
Maybe all players should.
"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder
Timing of the Milsap offer
I’m new around here (been lurking a few weeks, but first post), so bear with me if this is wrong…
I was thinking about the timing of the offer to Milsap offer, and the fact that so many other FAs like B.Bass (potential Plan-C’s?) were getting gobbled up. Perhaps this was a necessary part of the design of the offer. I don’t know as much about cap space as many of you seem to, but is it possible that KP purposefully waited until guys like Bass were taken because it strengthened his position against Utah?
My thoughts: To afford Milsap, everybody seems to agree Utah has to find a way to dump Boozer, plain and simple. But to achieve their goals (less $ outlay), they can’t just do a standard trade where they get similar contracts in return – they have to dump the salary. With normal trades they can only reduce salary by 25%, right? Is it possible KP had to wait until other teams used up their cap space on these other free agents so no other team could facilitate an uneven salary trade involving Boozer?
(Glad I found the site – new addition to my bookmarks)
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -- Albert Einstein
There weren't that many teams with cap space, though
In the example you used, Bass signed with the Magic’s midlevel exception. The Magic were over the cap, but they could still sign a guy in the neighborhood of $6 mil per season.
The midlevel exception can be used to sign players, but not to facilitate uneven trades. You have to have cap space to do that. So that Magic signing Bass didn’t actually have any effect on the ability of the Jazz to offload Boozer (which was always very limited, though – primarily now Portland and OKC – have the cap room to absorb salary.
Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.
This is true
But KP could have been waiting to see if someone with cap space would sign Bass; just because it didn’t happen doesn’t mean it wasn’t something he could have hoped would happen to improve his hand.
It is a good point - and welcome
The timing would maybe have more to do with Memphis and OKC and Toronto and Detroit (are there others?). These are the teams with significant cap space all but OKC has now used theirs. But I think Utah’s strategy was to wait until everyone had used it up to offer Millsap slightly more than MLE money. They would save a bit that way. Bass was not going to get Millsap money and took the best (to him) opportunity to start for a contender at MLE.
Lurking in the weeds is OKC who reportedly wanted Millsap for themselves. Would they take Boozer and a couple of 1st round draft picks from Utah? They have done it before with Kirk Thomas from Phoenix. So we do not really have all the leverage. We are simply making a division rival squirm and probably lose one of their two good PF’s.
Your point on setting a precedent for
Future negotiations with LMA, Batum, Rudy, Oden etc would be a little more valid if we only looked forward. The key thing is that we also have to look back. There is already a precedent of Allen and the Vulcans giving RIDICULOUS contractrs to player with less than stellar on court and off court performace. Why wouldn’t Brandon look at the recent past and say “if you give that guy that contract why wouldnt you give me exactly what i want?”
Man standing on toilet is high on pot.
After some thought
I guess that’s exactly what the Blazers are doing. They ARE looking back, and they figure the only way to stop the avalanche of insane contracts is to give the impression of strong negotiations with the face of the franchise. They are trying to turn another page on bad deals in the past and stop the precendent of free spending bad decisions.
Man standing on toilet is high on pot.
Max offer for LMA?
Extremely good point, Dave, about the negotiations with Roy REALLY being about the negotiations with other guys.
One quibble: you really think LMA will ultimately get a max deal?
I know he’s sensitive, and all, but I don’t see that happening. He’s just not a max player. I can’t see the Blazers giving him less than an average of 11-13 mil per season, I guess, now that the Raps destroyed the market by paying double what AB is worth.
That’s why these negotiations are so tricky: AB is really not worth anywhere close to that percentage of a team’s cap, and the Raps have no prayer of ever winning a championship paying guys of his caliber that much. But now Lamarcus’ agent gets to wave that deal in front of KP and say, “you have to pay our guy significantly more based on the fair market value.”
Fair market value for a basketball player isn’t real (at least not on a championship-winning model), when so many teams are ineptly managed, and yet that’s the basis for negotiations. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.
B Roy's contract.
One thing to keep in mind is that contracts aren’t simply number of years for so much money. It’s quite possible that Brandons agent has included some pretty rediculous clauses ect. into the intial offering. The Blazer organization probably has no problems with give B Roy a max deal but not one that puts them at risk for losing Roy prematurely through opt outs ect. People should cut the Organization some slack and remember Agents are basically greasy used car salesman in a nicer suit.
LMA =/= Roy
The part that makes me more and more uncomfortable about this is the idea that LMA can demand max money. I just don’t think he’s worth it.
What I sense with this article—and I think Dave is right—that Portland is getting ready to commit to the “Big 3” when I only see the Big 3 as one-third full. As far as I’m concerned, Oden is almost all potential and certainly hasn’t shown max money yet. And while I like Aldridge I don’t think he’s so significantly better than other available players (yet) that he’s worth that kid of money.
Lakers won with proven players and pieces.
San Antonio won with proven players and pieces.
Portland has hopes of players but only—ONLY—Roy is a proven commodity.
I like premium players but I always get uncomfortable about these enormous contracts. I remember keenly the day that Portland “hitched its wagon to Darius Miles” with a big contract and the team is still suffering for it. The Zach Randolph contract cost the organization a lot of money.
I’m not equating LMA and Oden to Miles and Randolph. But I think the uncertainty of the situation is the same. I do not like max contracts built upon uncertainty. I’d rather see an LMA or Oden trade if they can’t be signed for more reasonable contracts.
Buck Williams for the hall of fame
The league should produce a formula for which players get max contracts.
Something like:
(points + rebounds + assists + blocks + TV highlight plays + the number of times the terms “star,” “great defender,” “hustle,” “hard worker,” “team player,” “glue guy,” “high BBIQ,” etc. show up in the NBA media)
minus (turnovers + bricks + the number of times the terms “selfish,” “no-D,” “lazy,” “unmotivated,” “bad attitude,” “black hole,” “low BBIQ,” etc. show up in the NBA media)
equals (some threshold that results in players like Duncan, KG, Kobe, LeBron, Dwyane, Roy, CP3, etc. getting max deals while players like Zach, AK-47, Iverson, T-Mac, etc. don’t.)
The reality is that there aren’t many players other than those I listed above getting max deals, as this list at RealGM.com shows. The NBA market is doing a pretty good job at valuing players for the most part.
by MiledAnimal on Jul 11, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Who else had to scroll back up to re-read it?
"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder
Thank you, Dave. Thank you. The agent is trying to use the public as leverage… thus the Roy interview on KJR.
In this age of immediacy, we’re being pulled into a negotiation which would have been considered normal ten years ago. Let’s not let the constant tweets, twits on the radio, and sensationalist writing in the Oregonian get us fired up.
draft the stache
by Cablinasian on Jul 11, 2009 10:56 AM PDT reply actions 13 recs
greened
nice.
The Michael Ruffin of BlazersEdge, cuz Amlmart said so.
by BlazersOrBust on Jul 11, 2009 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Great take as usual, but there is one flaw.
Roy saw what Z-Bo got, and now the Blazers are punishing Roy based on their mistakes. The problem with trying to be firm now is they have zero credibility. Even the fans think it is a complete joke.
OMG I just jizzed in my France
Can our Millsap offer be recended?
I’m curious if the Blazers have the option of recending the Millsap offer before the 7 day period is up? i.e. to give more incentive for Utah to include us in a trade, so they can structure their own Millsap offer…
All three parties (Paul, Por, Utah) need to agree to the recind
Unless there’s an under-the-table deal in place (which we’d never know), it’s not in Paul’s best interests to accept recinding the offer.
Compared to the interest he'll earn
on the signing bonus, that might not mean much.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
in 4 years Paul Allen will be 60 years old.
We know he’s had some unfortunate health issues in recent years. Perhaps he has recently came up with a plan to sell the franchise at that time? If we keep seeing these 4 year offers pertaining to big contracts it’s gotta make you wonder or no?
Darius Miles Tribute Vid
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
60 is not that old
80 is old.. 70 is mehhh… 60 they can still walk and breathe and with this billions he can get the best treatment with whatever he has
Oden...Aldridge...Roy.....THE REAL BIG THREE
I'm finding the questioning of his health just a little odd/extreme...
Not like the Utah Jazz... it's about REAL jazz. Go Dawgs, Go Blazers!
by jazzaholic17 on Jul 11, 2009 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions
As said somewhere else in this thread, that stems from his health problems last year (canceling events incl. an award show for admitted health reasons, looking thin) and his known battle with Hodgin’s as a younger man.
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
All I wanted was Nash..
I know some of you hate the idea… I saw this tidbit recently and it further reinforced my thoughts…
“The Suns certainly could move Nash this summer if they wanted, but they’ve made it known to anyone calling with trade interest — most notably Portland — that they will not part with Nash even if he insists on playing out his current contract to have the right to shop himself in the summer of 2010.”
Thanks for trying Pritch… I’d better give up on my pipe dream now.
WHAT
is the difference between an ETO and a player option? Is it that a player option is for 1 year and a ETO can be two years before the contract is up?
Just used the caps to snag attention ftr.
Not that much as far as I understand it
In an ETO a player opts out of his running contract. If he doesn’t use it his contract automatically runs on. It can’t be given for contracts that are not at least 5 years long, and can’t be placed prior to the end of the 4th season.
With a player option, a player opts into the last year of his contract (can be just one). If he doesn’t use it his contract automatically ends and he becomes a free agent. A player option also can’t be used on a declining contract since the last year must be at least as high as the previous year.
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
That's the major difference
Minor difference is that a player option must be exercised in order to get the extra year. An ETO, if not exercised, means the extra year (or two) is still in effect.
In other words, you do nothing with a player option, you’re a FA. You do nothing with an ETO, you’re still under contract.
I agree with Dave on points 1 and 3
There’s more going on behind the scenes of Brandon’s extension that we fans haven’t heard. Didn’t I read that Wheels as much said so on his radio show?
I’m frustrated, too, by the seeming lack of harmony between Roy and the franchise. But I believe with all my heart and mind that by October 31st, Roy will have signed an extension.
As for Nate getting an extra year, I’m very happy to read about it happening. Good news for Nate and for the Blazers.
As for the middle point about Millsap – I don’t think that Utah matches. I know that goes against conventional wisdom and I’m in the minority on the board, but I just don’t see it happening. Not with how the numbers play out. This is not just a purely basketball decision, it’s also a business decision. Fantasy League – they match. NBA in 2009 – they let him sign with Portland.
You don't think the Jazz match, either?
Jscot, Cablanasian, and others all agree that the odds of the Jazz matching are at least 90%, so I figured I must be wrong about it, yet I can’t get past the feeling that Milsap will be a Blazer in a few days. Few teams have cap space now, and I don’t see any team wanting Boozer and his huge contract for one year, then having to face the prospect of paying him or letting him walk for cap space next summer.
I also don’t see KP offering Milsap just to stick it to the Jazz, division rival or no. Milsap was not KP’s number one free-agent choice, but I do believe he wants Milsap on the team and he may want him more than he wants to replace Blake with Hinrich.
If the Jazz cannot unload Boozer, they are stuck with him and will not want to pay him and Milsap so they’ll have to let Milsap go. Boozer is an All-Star and they’ve done well with him in the lineup. They could possibly re-sign him next summer to a less than max contract if he’s willing (Ha!) or let him walk and belly up to the free-agent buffet next summer and order a Chris Bosh. Milsap may be their preferred option, but paying millions in lux tax for him would be a bitter pill for them to swallow.
My take
10% chance they keep both of them and suffer through it.
10% chance they don’t match.
80% chance they work a deal to dump Boozer somewhere. It may be for a partially guaranteed contract, so they may only be able to get rid of half of his salary, but I suspect they find a way to clear some of it. Maybe we get in on the action, maybe not.
Millsap is their future, they are in it for the long term, they don’t let him go, IMO.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
If a trade does go down either us or OKC would have to be involved
assuming Utah wants to shed salary. If they make the deal involving OKC, then we are the only team left with cap space. That makes us major players in any uneven deal from here to the trade deadline.
I updated my post
Other possible teams would be those with a large trade exception — as far as I know, the candidates are Denver and Orlando.
But your point is accurate, anyway — there are very few teams who can facilitate uneven deals. Very doubtful Denver wants to, their payroll is mile high.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
I _hope_ they don't match
That is an AMAZING deal for a guy as talented and young as Millsap, for MLE-type money and all. Obviously paying the bonuses and a big chunk of the contract up front isn’t a huge deal for us.
Because it’s such a good deal, I’d think Utah would match, but they’re already stretched thin economically so I can see them not doing it. If we truly wanted to make sure they didn’t, I woulda’ thought we’d pay him a million or more a year, since that’d still be a good deal… but who knows— if we get him at the reported price, it is a hell of a deal.
Mortimer
We didn't want to renounce our Euros
since they probably will match. We would have renounced them for no benefit. So that’s why we didn’t offer more.
I don’t know what I hope for here. If we get Millsap at that price, it’s phenomenal, good for at least 3 more wins in the regular season, I think, and probably makes us favorites for a 2 seed and a great chance to make it to the WCF.
If we don’t get him, and Utah dumps Boozer, we’ve got a great, great chance to pick up an even better player in a salary dump (either facilitating the Boozer dump, or in a later one at the trade deadline).
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Solid post, as usual, Dave...
Over the last decade, the internet has changed the way these negotiations are carried out. Fans are more involved and vocal during the process and the players (athletes, agents, front office, etc) are affected by it, to at least SOME degree.
The players walk a fine line between representing their positions and helping themselves into a better contract and coming across as whiners and malcontents. I don’t take issue with Roy going public. A little pressure only helps his position. However, if he keeps it up he runs the risk of crossing that line…a line that COULD change the way he is perceived by his, currently, adoring fans… I don’t think he’ll go that far…
Are you a Mexi-CAN or a Mexi-CAN'T?
Jazz got some issues
http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/60511/20090711/jazz_soften_stance_on_matching_millsap/
Oden...Aldridge...Roy.....THE REAL BIG THREE
Thanks for keeping it real Dave....
Does Utah’s 7 days include weekends ? Or are we looking at more like 10 days ?
My inappropriate blog.
I recently let my emotions get the best of me and got to aggressive.
I apologize to everyone that I walked on or abused.
hg
kudos for handling it well
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
I think we should trade Pritchard.
I want a GM I can blame and hate on when something doesn’t go right (see: Roy’s contract). It feels wrong hating on someone with a golden aura around him…
She Hate Me
"oh I served BRP all right
drained J-Kiddesque running floaters over him all night long last time we balled" - prezofdeath
hmm.
you think the Suns would go for a Barbosa + Kerr for Pritchard and Mills trade?
She Hate Me
"oh I served BRP all right
drained J-Kiddesque running floaters over him all night long last time we balled" - prezofdeath
I got it
Michael Jordan and Gerald Wallace and Charlotte’s 2010 1st Round Pick for Kevin Pritchard and Travis Outlaw.
She Hate Me
"oh I served BRP all right
drained J-Kiddesque running floaters over him all night long last time we balled" - prezofdeath
Utah
“Does Utah’s 7 days include weekends ?”
Excellent question. You will find the answer in the “Mormon 8 day exception” clause of the CBA.
Sounds like Millsap's handlers now would prefer the Blazers over the Jazz
“If Utah matches, there’s nothing we can do,” Vartanian said. “Paul will play hard and do what he has to do. But if we had that offer from the Jazz, it never would have come to this.”
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
Word from UT is that Millsap himself wants to stay — regardless of his agents' feelings...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Players Happy for Millsap
By Ross Siler, Salt Lake Tribune
There were jokes about coming to Paul Millsap in need of a loan or a new house, but more than anything, there was celebration on the part of his Jazz teammates about the offer sheet Millsap signed Friday with Portland.
“A lot of guys just kind of get by on talent,” Kyle Korver said, “and when you see guys get a big contract and you don’t feel like they necessarily worked that hard to get it … but Paul has, so I’m really happy for him.”
“I just told him yesterday he had a glow about him,” Ronnie Price added. “He’s worked hard enough and he will continue to work hard enough to become even better than that. He’s an outstanding player with an outstanding future. We’ll be talking about Paul Millsap for years.”
Both players spoke Saturday at Deron Williams ’ third-annual charity golf event at Thanksgiving Point. Millsap was scheduled to attend, but did not show up.
C.J. Miles , however, talked to Millsap and said Millsap’s preference was to stay with the Jazz. “He wants to be back here, hopefully they can bring him back, but it’s out of his hands,” Miles said. * * *
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
I would think he would not badmouth staying to his teammates while still a chance Utah matches
(And I hope he is not the type to badmouth anyway.)
Nice comments. I agree with Storyteller – I don’t think it is likely Utah matches. I think only OKC can save Utah by taking Boozer and allowing them to match and Presti’s price has been two 1st round picks.
Thanks for the find.
The way those guys feel
says a lot about Paul Millsap as a person, doesn’t it?
I hope we get him.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Big picture objectivity Re: Roy
In a one team town we often get swept away in emotion. Thanks, Dave for providing a clear objective view of the Roy negotiations. With a young team and with several players still in their rookie deals, the organization is faced with maintaining a manageable budget in the years to come. Besides sculpting a championship caliber team, being fiscally prudent is equally important. Sometimes, based upon past experience and the fact that the owner is RICH, we forget it is a business and certainly it is in the best interest for all of us that it be run well.
It doesn’t seem like free agency has gone as hoped, and the Hedo deal falling through appears to be a negative. Personally it was a roller coaster ride for me, I went from thinking “no” that deal doesn’t make sense, to thinking "this can work’, to actually feeling relieved…that was a long and huge contract being offered up to Hedo. Also, I too think the Jazz will match and keep Milsap. Through it all the silver lining might just be that once the dust settles, either through free agency or trade, the Blazer will be able to add pieces to this already good roster, with smaller 2 or 3 year contracts, that will enhance the team’s ability to compete in the playoffs. Patience, trust and confidence are important virtues here that despite our emotional attachment, will deliver what we want, electrifying basketball, a continued sense of pride and success.
Lastly, even though it appears Nate is evolving with each new season’s roster, sometimes, especially in the revolving door coaching ranks of the NBA, and especially with an eventual veteran roster, perhaps a new leader might be needed to help this team ascend to the top of the mountain. Ideally, having Nate being the next Jerry Sloan would be great! Time will tell.
Dont talk bad about overly emotional fans
Im too emotionally fragile to take that hit :(
s
The Princess of Blazersedge
One team town?
Read Blog-a-Bull recently? They never get swept away in emotion.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
At least not positive ones, unless they win the draft
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
Wow im glad we have a coach and no allstar, 2 less rotation players
a broke-foot rookie and disgruntled fans. Way to go Vulcan/KP/Everyone
:(
Sophia
The Princess of Blazersedge
We'll probably only win 59 games next year, too
And I went and predicted 60+.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Really ???
We were only off by one last year. 13 game improvement.
I’d have said that half that improvement (sans major injuries) would
be about right. 54 wins + 6.5 = 60.5 wins
I’m on the fence. 3M is the key ! (as well as getting Millsap)
It's GO time !
Provisional prediction
We still don’t know what the roster will be.
If it is as stands plus Millsap, I’d put it at 62-63.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Are you juiced about the possibilities ?
You can never have too many physical, hard working
Big men !
It's GO time !
I am for more than one reason
It means Nate will actually rest LMA more than 10 mpg, which will help keep him healthy and probably extend his career.
One of my (few) complaints about Nate is that he doesn’t use our depth enough during the regular season to wear down opponents and keep starters fresh. Maybe that will change when we aren’t worried about making the playoffs anymore.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Would it make you happier that Channing is signing in Phoenix?
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
When did we lose Roy?
If I’m not mistaken he’s still under contract with us.
i know that was my initial reaction
but then i started reading comments here: hundreds of them proclaiming the end of the blazer dynasty before it actually ever started! And all because Broy has not had his contract negotiated within 2 days of July 1. He is clearly of poor character and has 1 foot firmly out of the door to be shortly followed by the other. Mills will SORELY be missed from whatever Euro roster he will eventually be stashed upon and his broken foot was clearly caused by an evil scheme devised by the Dr. Evil clones working for Vulcan LLC. With allowing two highly pivotal rotation players in Channing Frye and Sergio Rodriguez carelessly slip from his grasp, whom the same fans were rejoicing in their exit mere days before, Kevin Pritchard Kevin has revealed his underlying and true ineptitude-all the while gifting the Suns and Sacramento , TWO TITLE CONTENDERS and Future threats to the heretofore ruined Dynasty-before-it-was-a-dynasty, with our beloved championship pieces.
Sophia
The Princess of Blazersedge
by BlazerFan1 on Jul 11, 2009 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks but...
Until B Roy is locked up and isn’t going on Seattle Radio shows, I am going to be perturbed at the team. I agree that Paul Milsap coming to Portland is not probable, and fully expect this to be a way Utah is forced to trade Boozer to facilitate the Hinrich acquisition. Nate’s little one year deal thing is weird, I don’t care how it’s explained to me.
I think we all aught to drive up to Vulcan HQ in Seattle, light bags of dog poo on fire on their front door, and run away.
OLP is the best thing Canada has given the world outside of maple syrup
I needed this post
Simply to calm my fraying nerves about this whole Roy thing I needed this post of sanity. I’m worried about LMA though, I think he wants the exact same deal Roy gets no matter what, I also think he might not think Portland is his final destination for his NBA career…
I think Utah might be more likely to not match the Millsap offer than on first glance. On the Jazz SB blog they specifically have said to “call Portland’s bluff” as in make us pay Millsap; do they realize the deal we’d be getting? Millsap was closer to the All-Star game last year than Aldridge (unfortunately for us last year) and we’d be getting him for about 8-9 million per (averaged out through the contract). That is a great bargain for a premier power forward.
The true question: Can the Blazers un-retire number 24 for Millsap after Qyntel Woods so badly damaged its image???
Can the Blazers un-retire number 24 for Millsap...?
No way! #24 belongs to Audie “the atomic dog” Norris and should’ve been hung in the rafters years ago
(1985 playoffs, baseline shot against Dallas. One of the biggest moments in Blazer playoff history…)
Maybe Millsap will contact Norris and ask for his permission to use his uniform#?
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Great post
The entire Brandon Roy section was well done, and hopefully will calm some Blazer-fanatics down. Both sides have an agenda, but in the end, both sides want to work together. The sticking point is simply the payment for services rendered. And Portland has other players to think about. Roy has himself to think about.
In a perfect world, Roy would not want such a huge contract, as he would know about the cap, and what Portland’s future entails (LA, Oden, Rudy, etc.) But Roy is still a human being, and seeing how this is his first chance at that huge payday, he needs to cash in. After that, he can worry about doing the right thing for the TEAM.
"The problem actually is that PER is a extra-long, double high wagon load of horse crap." - timbo (7/3/09)
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