Trading Blake for Hinrich is Stupid
by wingzeta on Jun 5, 2009 3:58 AM PDT
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PrintWhy would you trade a guy you already have, who fits great with the Blazers, for a guy who is practically the same player, at twice the salary? Kirk's numbers when he was a starter were about the same as Blake's this year. This was Blake first year as a full time starter, because while Hinrich went to an awful Bulls team and got to start right out of college, Blake was stuck behind star Gilbert Arenas at the start of his career. Blake will surpass Hinrich's numbers easily when the Blazers gat an inside game, just like he dropped 11 dimes on Kirks Jayhawks, and got the amazing defender Kirk to foul out with only 5 assists, when they met in the Final Four. Blake went on to win the NCAA Championship, while Kirk's coach Roy Williams cried like a baby on National TV. The next year, the Jayhawks made it to the finals, and got trounced by Freshman Carmello Anthony.
All the knocks on Blake are BS, from people who don't know the game. I've even heard a few people say we don't have an inside game because of him, or we don't ever get fast breaks because of him. Unfortunately one of the problems with Portland basketball fans is their lack of knowlege about the college game. It's an NBA town. Their are no other pro sports, and no major college programs in the area. Well, maybe you think Hinrich is so great because you watched his team destroy the Ducks in the Elite Eight, and stopped watching before seeing the Jayhawks destroyed by Blake's Terps in the Final Four. Anyhow, The Terps were THE running team of college basketball, and THE tough inside team as well. They went to the Final Four two years in a row, and they had something the Blazers don't. Big guys who cut to the hoop, and could catch the ball and finish. They also had lots of guys who got out on the break and ran the floor. Notice how when Lamarcus started running the floor toward the end of the season we started blowing out teams like the Spurs, Lakers and Nuggets. Blake is a great long passer as we've seen, when he has someone to pass to, but he smartly pulls up for a half court set rather than turn it over, when no one flashes to the basket. When Oden learns to catch the ball and convert, Blake will average 8 assists at least.
Then people say Blake can't play defense. It's called a pick guys. Most teams run it like every play, because it works, like almost every play. You have a big guy slide up behind, and stand in the way of the little guy playing defense on the other little guy with the ball, and he runs into the big guy when the little guy with the ball cuts past him too close for the little defensive guy to get between them. On teams, who play better defense than the Blazers, one of the big guys in the middle of the defensive team steps out on the other side of the pick to deny penetration, and buy the moment his teammate needs to fight around the pick. The Blazers choose to play matador defense in the paint instead. All point guards including Hinrich, Chris Paul etc get screened off on picks. It's Basketball 101 guys. The rules make it an offensive game. Blake is actually a tenacious defender, but he doesn't get much help. He gets beaten sometimes just like Hinrich or any player. He has trouble stopping taller players from shooting over him, when he gets stuck with a mismatch, just like most players. To say Hinrich is a much better defender is a real exageration. I think it might be more acurate to say he plays on a team that plays better team defense, but most teams in the NBA play better team D than the Blazers.
Blake hasn't been given the chance to run a team for a few years the way Hinrich has, because he didn't go to a lottery team. If he gets the same chance Hinrich did with the Bulls, he will help his team win it all, somthing Hinrich failed to do in the NCAA, but Blake succedded with. A winner is a winner. Blazer fans don't know what they have with Steve Blake, let's hope KP does.
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I think it's a good idea.
But then again, I don’t actually watch any basketball.
All the knocks on Blake are BS, from people who don’t know the game.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 5, 2009 4:42 AM PDT reply actions
I'm going to ask people...
to respectfully debate the issues and not the poster(s). Wingzeta, while you may make some good points, your tone is borderline insulting and could lead to a breakdown of civil discourse.
I’m going to leave the post up because there are things here that merit discussion. If the discussion breaks down I or one of my fellow mods will delete the whole thread.
So he said in himself: "O vilest of those wherefor was made the byword: 'The pilgrimage is not perfected save by copulation with the camel!"' Richard Burton, Arabian Nights
by -ken on Jun 5, 2009 5:04 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Couldn't this have been expressed with an email and quick editorial changes made to the post by the poster?
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
no......
becuase right after it was posted, I read it, BEFORE I hit my post button…. prompting me to press my cancel button, and then rewrite what I wrote…. :)
mods are working :)
on the topic…..
I’m not sure it’s as stupid as I once thought. But is starting to look simpler than I once thought.
just my opinion :) love ya Timbo.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
Meh
This entire thread is an Ad Hom. attack on the entire BE community if you ask me. The OP has some good ideas, but wow…
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree with this.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
I'm not to thrilled about it either....
But I wanna start sergio too so…. :)
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
Blake is not the answer
Much of your arguments in support of Blake focus on his college career, which really is not relevant to his current performance and value as an NBA player. While I like Steve Blake, I also feel he is an above-average journeyman, and is not someone we will win titles with as our starting PG. We definately need to upgrade this position within the next 2 seasons. I could live with Blake for another year if the right player is not available to us this offseason, but not much longer than that.
I don’t know if Hinrich is the answer or if he is worth it at his price. I honestly haven’t watched him enough to make that call. He certainly seems like a good upgrade, and if I’m not mistaken wasn’t he in the mix for the Olympic team at one point?
Finally, I don’t think too many people on this board really needs a step by step discription of the pick and roll.
I agree with you completely, but since this line has passed muster with our six moderators, let me play devil's advocate for a moment:
All the knocks on Blake are BS, from people who don’t know the game.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
I completely disagree...
First of all, I think everyone would tell you that you should not put so much emphasis on ONE game that was played seven years ago.
On to the second point… defense
Then people say Blake can’t play defense. It’s called a pick guys.
Well said. It is called a pick… and no PG on the Blazers roster seems to be able to fight through one of them. This inevitably leads to Greg Oden isolated against a PG 20’ from the rim, which, in turn, leads to constant foul trouble for Oden.
Acquiring a player like Hinrich would improve our PNR defense significantly. That alone is worth the difference in salary.
Another question that should be raised… Why is the money important? We don’t have enough capspace to land a star, so why not make a trade for a talented player and then no longer be a cap team. Portland could use the MLE rather than renounce it as a capspace team and still find its solution at backup PF in free agency.
As for Blake not “getting an opportunity.” He has now been the starting PG on two playoff teams. He is what he is. He is very polished, but limited by average strength and athleticism. He isn’t a break out candidate.
I'm gonna blame nate for the non fighting through screens....
we didn’t ever do it well until in one huge unision the entire fan base started screamin fight through them over the course of the begining of this last season…. then I think we seen effort from then on to at least try… but yeah, they bit the big one at it.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
What makes Hinrich such a better defender against the pick and roll?
His over-priced salary?
I AM A PORTLAND TRAIL BLAZERS SUPPORTER.
I don't think so.
How would his big contract help him be a better defender?
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 5, 2009 7:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Whoa. Quick trigger on the enter key.
I’m on the fence about trading Blake. I think that he complements Roy well and can shoot from the outside, but I worry about his lack of athleticism.
While Hinrich may be an upgrade, I’m not sure he’s worth the cost.
I like Blake. But I like Hinrich better.
I can’t claim to have watched the whole college career of those two players outside of some games late in the season. But even then I didn’t get the impression that Blake was a better player.
I won’t go into detail since I don’t think I can convince people who don’t like Hinrich/a trade for him anyway, but to put it simply in college Blake had a PER of 15.6 and 19.1. Hinrich had a PER of 23 and 22.3. Blake also had some help in Juan Dixon who had a PER of 26.5 in his first year there. There must have been some reason why GMs and scouts liked Hinrich good enough to draft him in 2003 at 7 and Blake 30 spots later. Did they not watch college games either? Why didn’t they realize Blake was the better prospect?
Maybe Hinrich won’t be a huge upgrade. Somewhat likely even. But he is the kind of player both McMillan and Pritchard should be comfortable with acquiring since yeah he duplicates much of what Blake brings (experience, ball handling, outside shooting, ability to play off another guard, etc.). But he is an upgrade in athleticism, more aggressive passing and defense and can play multiple positions which many discussed prospects can’t. And I don’t think he would fit into the chemistry of this group any worse.
I have looked at past point guard careers a bit, and yes most of the very good ones initially came into a situation where they had not a lot of strong competition and could quickly take over the team and improve to about 2000 minutes and a good efficiency by year 2 or 3. There are exceptions, notably Chauncey Billups, who needed a long time to develop and come to the right situation, about 6 years before he played 2000 minutes again and 7 before he cracked a PER of 20. But once he was there in the right situation in Minny and especially Detroit he was instantly good. So while Blake can of course still improve a bit, it would be somewhat unusual if he would make a sudden jump after already having played as a starter assuming Portland is the right situation for him which I think is safe to say since he had his 3 best years here. It’s just as likely Hinrich would benefit from a new scenery.
by Norsktroll on Jun 5, 2009 5:57 AM PDT reply actions 5 recs
I'm gonna rebuttal Billups again
Billups played over 2000 minutes in his rookie year. He also started 70 games and he averaged 11/4 with over a steal a game. His rookie year was actually very good. The problem arose when he only managed to play 58 games over the next 2 years for Denver because of injury. He got traded from Denver without ever getting a chance to play while healthy.
He got moved to the T-Wolves and this WAS a bad situation for him, but by this point in his career he was finally getting healthy. His two years there were underwhelming to say the least, but he was also getting limited minutes. Even so he averaged 12.5 and 5.5 in 29 minutes a game, which isn’t awful, but isn’t great either. He did use this year to finally show his impressive outside shot. (39% behind the arc.) His first year in Detroit resulted in higher scoring, but more turnovers and less assists. Finally, by his second year in Detroit he’d found his niche and became the player we know.
It should also be noticed that Billups averaged 14 and 4 his second year before going down, not bad numbers for a second year PG either.
I agree with the rest of your thread.
Norskie is smart.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
wife?
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
Agent?
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 5, 2009 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Steady, people.
So he said in himself: "O vilest of those wherefor was made the byword: 'The pilgrimage is not perfected save by copulation with the camel!"' Richard Burton, Arabian Nights
by -ken on Jun 5, 2009 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I love the Burton version!!
All the “tossing” and embelished insults give it a good style in english (as opposed to the autoclave style of translation).
Seven year old college campaigns are hardly as relevent as NBA careers for these two characters.
Anyway, isn’t the Blake/Hinrich kinda stuffed right now with the injury and all?
I like both guys, but I like Blake better because he is and has been a Blazer!
I don't think Blake's surgery
has any impact on this trade since it is likely the Bulls would let him go anyway…but they would keep Trav, right?
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
So we rotate Rudy up to sixth man?
I’m worried about having a third creator on the team. I’m hopeful for Bayless, but I just don’t toss out the very few pieces of multi-talented offense we have.
Who makes our offense run?
Roy, LMA, Outlaw…. silence.
Rudy’s off the ball movement also can cause a big time defensive adjustment. On the ball? No one but the above…
I’m worried about losing Travis without someone else stepping up first. Hope and shiny rainbow wishes for Rudy, Bayless, Webster & anyone else you all suggest. If we do lose him I definately hope we get another swiss army knife, one that makes people mad that he doesn’t fit in right, because Travis has been great for adjusting small or big.
ARE YOU BLAKE'S LITTLE KID?
The cute one who comes to games? If so, hello.
by Sabonis4Ever on Jun 5, 2009 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes.
I’m learning how to use internet.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 5, 2009 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions
We would love Hinrich
If Captain Kirk were on our team we would love him. He is beloved by Bulls fans here in Chicago and the only reason anybody wants to let him go is because Chicago lucked into Derrick Rose. Salaries aside, Hinrich is an upgrade at the point. Having watched them both play live many times, Kirk is clearly the better defender, though both men give equal effort. Kirk can create for himself a little better and knock down the open shot about as well as Blake. Kirk can run the fast break a little more effectively. I love Blake for his determination, humility, and team focus. Hinrich shares these qualities. While Blake could be the starting PG on our championship team, Hinrich would make winning that championship more attainable. As much as I would hate to see Blake go, I want Portland to win a crown. Hinrich helps make that more likely and is no less of a likeable guy.
by Blazer Fan in Chicago on Jun 5, 2009 8:12 AM PDT reply actions 8 recs
I agree
Hinrich is basically Blake 2.0
He is slightly better at what Blake does well and he does somethings Blake doesn’t.
Like run the pick and roll effectively, run the fast break effectively, create for himself and others, and defend both pg’s and sg’s more effectively than Blake.
I love Blake, but I would love Hinrich even more because of the added gifts he brings to the court. He is more expensive, but with every skill you add to a basketball player, their salary goes up exponentially. $9-10 million per year for a quality starting pg is very reasonable.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
by usmcr3049 on Jun 5, 2009 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
And it goes backwards to $8 million, when he will be 31 and still not over the hill. If at that time Bayless or any other young point guard is ready to replace him, all the better, let him go or trade his expiring deal. Blake will also command a bit more than $4 million beginning in 2010 – when he is free to sign wherever he wants as a UFA if he doesn’t sign an extension now – but likely won’t find many other starting jobs. So the salary difference is not really a killer argument.
by Norsktroll on Jun 5, 2009 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Well said!
Nice to see some perspective from a Chicagonian(?)
Something nobody’s mentioned (as far as I know) is that if we got Kirk and it didn’t work out for some CRAZY reason, it’ s not like we’d be stuck with him! At 9 mil next summer he’d still be a great trading chip!
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
I'm not sure about that last part.
If Kirk doesn’t work out, that would probably mean that Kirk didn’t play any better than Blake. Blake’s salary is $4 and I haven’t heard many people say he’s a great trading chip outside of his salary dump potential.
"CRAZY" reason not being that he plays worse than Blake
that would be worse than crazy, more like…..impossible
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
I'm one of the people who disagree with that.
I think Blake is the better offensive player but Hinrich is the better defensive player.
by poster on Jun 5, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That is up for debate.
It is a good bet, but don’t go predicting the future. Hinrich’s injury is not a nonissue, nor are his poor stats in certain years. Let’s not forget how much knowing the team matters for a PG.
One could rationally defend Blake>Hinrich on the Blazers, and they clearly have here, so your point is wrong.
What's still an issue about the thumb?
Predicting the future is an issue, though, obviously. Both guys have had at least one really lousy year.
I don’t think an offseason trade would be a huge issue, chemistry wise – Kirk’s a good chemistry guy, and there’d be all of training camp and preseason to get on the same page.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
Okay, you're right. Overall, there's a chance Kirk won't be as good as Blake on the Blazers
Almost 1% chance
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
There is about a 99% chance
Hinrich will be about as good as Blake, because they are about the same, that’s why I’ve argued the trade is a waste of money, and whatever amount of time it takes to get Kirk into the Blazer’s system. If the team isn’t going to go to a significantly better player, making a move is not worth it, when the move kills cap space, and hampers the move for the quality PF we desperately need.
We also get
that you think a backup PF who plays 10-15 minutes per is more important this offseason than upgrading our starting PG
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
I like that advanced metric.
What is your margin of error?
I like Hinrich. I realize he has been better than Blake throughout his career and can likely outdo him where situations are equal.
But trades are always such a risk, even when the player in question is much better than who they are replacing (better than Hinrich to Blake, I mean). There is a chance that some hidden problem exists with Hinrich that will pop up, personalities might not mesh the same way we thought, and the system Nate likes might not make Hinrich that efficient.
These are all maybes, but they are realistic scenarios that together remind us (along with watching so many trades around the league not work out as planned), that it is unwise to act like such a prophet.
Agreed
and that’s actually been my main argument on not doing it.
With Blake, you KNOW what you’re going to get.
Kirk you’re living off years past (yes he played out of position and was injured but those are his current deeds. Live off past deeds and you RISK another Shawn Kemp)
Additionally, ANY new player of significant value will take time to learn the system. maybe that’s not an issue although I know that if we don’t win our first 20 games people will be grumbling. (yes, all 20). So the blazers may have a rough start. Could be worth it if he fits long term.
Lastly, does he mesh with the people on his team? Actually to add on from that and the other direction, does Blake? Is the team okay with him throwing chairs on occasion? Maybe it runs team mates the wrong way? Essentially what the trade does to “chemistry” needs to be taken into consideration as well. maybe the team loves the chair throwing and that gives them a little edge they might not have. If one man keeps the team from being “soft” then maybe you want to keep that one man.
I lean towards blake because of the unknowns. However, I except KP and crew to do much more research than I do and to know those risks and potential rewards far better than me.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
8-9 million contract good for trade
A problem were might have in acquiring a big name this summer is the fact we need a little bit extra salary to trade back to the other team. If kirk doesn’t work out he could be a great trading piece for an over priced player another team would like to dump. we could through that over priced veteran player into our championship run the next couple of years and have kick behind
"Knowledge will get you from A to B. Creativity will get you anywhere." Einstein
by Garden of ODEN on Jun 5, 2009 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions
A couple things
First, college games have almost no impact on pro careers. Avid watchers of the 2006 tourney would be wise to remember that Big Baby and Tyrus Thomas absolutely dominated LaMarcus Aldridge, combining for 47 points to 4 for LaMarcus. Does that make them better players now? Hardly, they just happened to be hot and on a superior team. Tim Duncan and Chris Paul never made it to a single final four. Ray Felton’s team destroyed Deron William’s team in the finals. We could make the same argument about winners being winners with Juan Dixon, Gerry McNamara, or Jeff Sheppard. You see what I’m getting at here?
Second, this wasn’t Blake’s first year running the Blazer, but really his third or fourth year as a starter. He started the year before, started for us in 2005-2006 before he got traded, and started for the Nuggets in 2006-2007. That’s nearly half his career that he’s been a starter. At some point, he is what he is. He’s started about 100 fewer games than Hinrich, so a little over a season less. To argue that Kirk has had some golden chance to run a team while Blake has languished on the bench his entire career is just explicitly ignoring this.
by Royster on Jun 5, 2009 8:14 AM PDT reply actions 5 recs
Redick v. Morrison...
Christian Laettner over Shaq on the “Dream Team”…
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jun 5, 2009 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions
That had some logic
The Dream Team had an overabundance of completely awesome big men. They had Patrick Ewing and David Robinson and you don’t really need 3 guys who are true centers. And no way did a college Shaq deserve the spot over those 2.
It sounds like you watch basketball
That's right, that's a picture of me with my new bff Joel Przybilla. He said my Billy Idol Karaoke was spot on.
Sadly, it almost works in reverse
I remember being disappointed when we drafted Aldridge, mainly on the back of that tourney embarrassment because I hadn’t seen too much of him in college, so I have to say, happily, that I got that one completely wrong.
Blake as a starter
Last year he was trading time with JJack, he only started half a season in Denver before coming back here, and was trading time with Telfair his first time here. I said it was his first FULL season as the starter. Many of his career starts were when the guy ahead of him was injured. That’s how he eventually earned a starting gig, because people noticed that his teams ran better when he played, but when you are playing behind Arenas, you are not going to take his job, just like MacGrady will take his job back no matter how much better the Rockets do without him. He was eventually able to take Telfair’s job, and survive Jack, Sergio and Bayless, who were supposed to replace him. So this is the first full season he’s been handed the keys to a team without doubts. He was handed the keys to Denver for half a year, after being traded there mid season, but jumped at the chance to come back to Portland, because he had made his home here. So he has started a lot of games in his career, but it was always by default until he got to Denver, and still a little shaky when he came back here with the team planning on 1st round pick Sergio being better than he is.
You’re right Blake is what he is, a guy who keeps winning every time he gets a shot, and at a higher percentage than Kirk, when Kirk was a starter last year, but the Blazers are a better team than the Bulls, so we don’t have to count our 54 wins this year, as outstripping the Bulls 47 under Hinrich in 06-07(Chicago’s best season with Kirk), or our 45 wins that year, in the much more competitive West though they did have Ben Gordon, Deng, Ben Wallace, Duhon, and Tyrus Thomas, which is a decent group, playing against weaker opponents in general. Blake is doing something right when he gets a shot, but no one wants to admit it. Hinrich is a better defender, but not enough to justify the trade. That should end the discussion.
when did we win 45 games?
It is so dumb to say that Blake is as good as Kirk or better becasue his team won more games then Kirk. So is Blake better then CP3? The blazers won more games then the Hornets.
I no nuthing abowt basketball
I do know that Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and Dwight Howard are all loser players because their college careers sucked. I mean none of them ever even made it into the NCAA tournament.
The best player in the NBA right now is clearly Carmelo because he played 1 year and won it all. Any team in the NBA would rather have Melo than any of those 4 losers.
Kirk isn’t some amazing PG like CP3, but here’s the deal. There is literally NOTHING that Kirk does worse than Blake. Meanwhile, there are plenty of things he does better. I like Blake, but he has also proven himself to be unreliable. He had to quit taking technical FTs after that Clipper fiasco. Is that a guy you want running your team with 2 minutes to go in the game?
Sounds like it
The four guys you mentioned came straight from High School to the NBA. When you are that good, you avoid all the hassle of going to class altogether. But to dis the NCAA game is ridiculous. Where do you think the majority of the players in the NBA came from. The strongest conferences are peppered with potential NBA talent in any given year. The 2003 draft, which was one of the best drafts we’ve ever seen included Labron James and Travis Outlaw from HS, and these guys from college: Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Carmelo Anthony, David West, Josh Howard, Kendrik Perkins, Hinrich, Blake, Walton, Kyle Korver, James Jones, and more. That’s just one year. As someone else said, winning at that level, is about who has the most NBA talent on one team, not who has the best players, unless you look at Carmelo, who won as the best player, over Kirk’s Kansas team which had more guys who went to the NBA. Playing for a high level college program and going far in the NCAAs is obviously a valuable experience, and about as close as you get to the NBA before you get there, because you play against a lot of other future NBA players, under one and done pressure. The top NCAA teams mostly seem to provide steady roll players like Blake, Hinrich, Battier, Rose, Roy (obviously more than a roll player), who are mature out of the gate, and used to the bright lights. The freakish talents like Labron and Kobe get plucked to the NBA as soon as they are identified. Under the new rules, after 1 year of college like Durant/Oden. The influx of European talent is the biggest change to the order. A good example of why knowing the college game is important is Von Wafer. Most Portland fans just thought he was a scrub on the end of our bench. If you watched him in college, you’d know he was a scoring machine. The point is, once you get below the top level talent in the NBA, it’s as much about opportunity to play as it is talent, to have a chance to do something in the NBA. Everyone in the NBA is pretty good. Arron Brooks was stewing on the Houston bench for a while. Only those who saw him play for the Ducks had a clue about his talent. Now you know something.
outlaw...for his own development, and edumakation.... probababababably shoulda went to book school.
he’d have gotten drafted and all anyway, and’he’d have an edumakation ta boot.
commin from someone who didn’t won’t don’t wanna go to no stank school in some ninny citty. ;)
chuckle.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
by faith on Jun 5, 2009 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
How was Washington a "top NCAA team"?
Roy never made it past the sweet 16. Winning in the NCAAs is just an awful predictor of success. You cite Melo, what about Blake Griffin this year losing to Tyler Hansbrough? Or Derrick Rose losing to Kansas with Mario Chalmers and Brandon Rush? Or Brandon Roy losing to Rudy Gay and UConn? Or Kevin Durant losing to USC, whose best player was Nick Young? Or Chris Paul losing to WVU, with Kevin Pittsnogle and Mike Gansey? Or Andre Iguodala losing in 2004 to Seton Hall with no one? Or Dwyane Wade losing to (Gasp) Kansas with one Kirk Hinrich in 2003? Or our very own Steve Blake, deprived of that legendary winner, Juan Dixon, failing to get out of the sweet 16 that very same year against an MSU team featuring Maurice Ager as its best player? Or Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy and Jason Williams losing to Indiana and Jared Jeffries?
Melo is the exception, not the rule. I could keep going, but I think I’ve made my point. For every Von Wafer, there are eight Jeff Sheppards, Mateen Cleaves or Khalid El-Amins.
I pointed out Melo as an exception
I also said top NCAA teams produce great NBA ready roll players more than anything. The Blake team the year after the championship had only one returning starter (Blake, who was a junior when they won it all, and a sophomore the first time they went to the Final4). It’s amazing they made it to the sweet 16 with an all new team. Blake showed a lot of leadership to get those guys rolling by tournament time. It’s not like you can just reload four equal guys after three of them went to the NBA. Maryland is a good program, but they don’t get the crop of McD All-Americans every year that Duke, UCONN, and UNC do. And Roy played 4 years and lead his Huskies team as far as they could go with the talent they had. The difference in maturity between him and Bayless is a perfect example of what four years at that level can provide. Some guys are just ready out of the gate, but four year guys from good programs are more likely to be ready to contribute quickly. NCAA success is a good predictor of that readiness to contribute not dominate. Hinrich, Battier, Hill, Dunleavy, Melo, Collison, Rose. The reason I would say, is that to get there, you have to either be super talented(Melo Rose), or be talented and commit to a team principle. Guys who do that know how to win. They know it takes a team to go far. Look how long it took Kobe Brant to realize he needed a team. I think he just figured it out a couple years ago, after that season where he scored 80 points in a game but couldn’t take his team anywhere. He had won in the past, but only because he was on a “dream team” with Shaq and some great role players. You need a star to close games, but you also need guys who have that team mentality, that has been extremely well bread in the insane college arenas, where guys smack the floor and whatnot. Where the guys are playing for glory and each other rather than money. I’ll credit Kirk, he’s that kind of guy too. I bet he would take a pay cut for a sure chance to win a title, but it’s not that sure a thing with Portland, and Blake is that kind of guy too, and we already have him.
Why would we still be talking about readiness to contribute
with guys who have been in the league for 6 years? Especially considering both Hinrich and Blake are 4 year guys. Your original point wasn’t that “Blake is better than Hinrich because he had more college experience”, but “Blake is better than Hinrich because Blake’s team beat Hinrich’s in the tournament”, so debating the merits of guys playing at winning programs is completely tangential to the discussion. And, as I’ve pointed out, the teams that win don’t have the best, or even second best players on their teams in nearly any year. Blake was a great college player, that’s great, but so were Mateen Cleaves, Juan Dixon, Chris Wilcox, Sean May, Dee Brown, Rashad McCants, Jordan Farmar, Khalid El-Amin, Trajan Langdon, Scott Padgett, Ron Mercer, Miles Simon, John Wallace, Ed O’Bannon, Clint McDaniel, and Toby Bailey, all of whom were one of the top three players on a team in a national title game, and all of whom have ranged from mediocre to awful in the NBA.
The fact is, Blake won a game against Hinrich 7 years ago, why should that factor into the discussion at all, at least any more than Hinrich beating Wade 6 years should?
That is the point.
If you can point out stats that say Hinrich is a marginally better defender, I can point out results that suggest Blake can do more for a team’s success. Talking about their head to head college moment, shows that under Final Four pressure, Blake out-performed Hinrich by a lot. It’s as valid a stat, as Hinrich getting one more assist per game during one season, or Blake’s team winning more games one season. They were playing with different players in different situations in different conferences. You want to use those stats to say Hinrich is better, and I to say Blake is better. The stats are so close, when each guy got to be a starter, that there is no serious basis to make a trade when we already have a guy who performs well. I can say Blake is a guy who started off on the bench, and earned a starting gig, while Hinrich began as a starter and lost a starting gig, but we both know that is ridiculous. The point is, both guys are good enough to be starters somewhere, and not good enough to start in other places. That was the point of everything I said about opportunity, going to a lottery team or not etc. I think Blake is as good as Hinrich, but has had to travel a harder road to get a chance. Blake was behind Arenas, and now Hinrich is behind Rose, but at least Hinrich got to start for most of his career, to prove what he can do, so he is trade worthy. Blake had to wait for other guys to be injured, before he got a brief chance to show his stuff. Opportunity is why Hinrich is a household name, while Blake is virtually unknown, even though Blake had accomplished more pre-NBA. If the Blazers could get a guy like Rose, this discussion would be over, but while we can’t, Blake is as good for this team as Hinrich plus or minus a little, and for less money.
Look at it this way. We have one good point guard on the Blazers; Steve Blake. We need another good one. Why would we trade our only good one, who we don’t pay that much, to get a good one. If anything, we should be looking for how to get a good point by trading Sergio and Bayless (our weakness at PG), and keep our good one. We need two good ones. If we could get Hinrich and Blake together, we’d have two good PGs, but Kirk would be getting paid twice as much, and not add a change of pace, or different style that might give us the ability to get a match up advantage at times when we play a team that plays well against those two. I’d get Conley, and keep Blake before I’d give up Blake for Hinrich. Conley would provide a different style, and we know Blake does well with this team
I was talking about readiness to contribute in relation to why, who does what in college, matters when assessing talent, and in relation to talent vs. opportunity. If two guys are of equal talent, and it takes a guy 3 or 4 years to get a shot vs. getting a shot from day one, it makes a big difference, even four years later. If Hinrich was drafted by the Pistons, and played behind Billups for 3 years, we might not even know who he was, unless we watched college ball. To you Kirk Hinrich is a STAR point guard, because he’s a good player and well known. To me, he is the luckiest of Blake, Ridonaur(sp) and himself, because he went to the most high profile team, with no star point guard to sit behind. Any of those guys, and a few others, could have been the starter for the Bulls at that time. Opportunity often outweighs talent. Blake is the luckiest right now, because he has landed on the best team of the bunch, but hasn’t had a chance to gain the reputation of Hinrich yet, so his job is still in question.
Citing one game's stats
is not remotely close to holding the same significance as citing a season’s worth of data. Using that method, you could make the equally ridiculous arguments that Kobe is better than MJ because he scored 81 in one game and MJ never did, or that Robinson was better than Hakeem AND Jordan, because they never put up 70 in a game, or that Deron Williams is better than Chris Paul because he’s beaten him in head to head matchups. It’s called sample size. A sample size of one game is so pointless small that there’s no point in using it.
The thing with Blake is, that in 7 years in the NBA, he’s never been statistically even an average player, posting career PER highs of 14.5 twice (15 is average). Hinrich’s career average, even after basically being pushed out of being a PG this year, is 14.8. So not only has Hinrich been significantly better on offense throughout his career, while dealing with a ton of upheaval on the Bulls, but he’s also a superior defender. It’s not like teams didn’t have the option to draft Blake over Hinrich coming out of college. There’s a reason Hinrich went 7th, and Blake went in the second round. Asserting that it’s entirely luck and team situation that Hinrich has been better than Blake in the NBA because Blake played well in a couple NCAAs is ridiculous. Getting the chance to come in and start isn’t why Dwyane Wade is better than Juan Dixon, either. Some guys are better basketball players, and Hinrich is a better one than Blake. That’s all there is to it.
I pointed out Melo as an exception
I also said top NCAA teams produce great NBA ready roll players more than anything. The Blake team the year after the championship had only one returning starter (Blake, who was a junior when they won it all, and a sophomore the first time they went to the Final4). It’s amazing they made it to the sweet 16 with an all new team. Blake showed a lot of leadership to get those guys rolling by tournament time. It’s not like you can just reload four equal guys after three of them went to the NBA. Maryland is a good program, but they don’t get the crop of McD All-Americans every year that Duke, UCONN, and UNC do. And Roy played 4 years and lead his Huskies team as far as they could go with the talent they had. The difference in maturity between him and Bayless is a perfect example of what four years at that level can provide. Some guys are just ready out of the gate, but four year guys from good programs are more likely to be ready to contribute quickly. NCAA success is a good predictor of that readiness to contribute not dominate. Hinrich, Battier, Hill, Dunleavy, Melo, Collison, Rose. The reason I would say, is that to get there, you have to either be super talented(Melo Rose), or be talented and commit to a team principle. Guys who do that know how to win. They know it takes a team to go far. Look how long it took Kobe Brant to realize he needed a team. I think he just figured it out a couple years ago, after that season where he scored 80 points in a game but couldn’t take his team anywhere. He had won in the past, but only because he was on a “dream team” with Shaq and some great role players. You need a star to close games, but you also need guys who have that team mentality, that has been extremely well bread in the insane college arenas, where guys smack the floor and whatnot. Where the guys are playing for glory and each other rather than money. I’ll credit Kirk, he’s that kind of guy too. I bet he would take a pay cut for a sure chance to win a title, but it’s not that sure a thing with Portland, and Blake is that kind of guy too, and we already have him.
Taurean Green is a winner.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 5, 2009 8:52 AM PDT reply actions
He'll win 2 or 3 games for us with his shooting
The inbound to McGinnis, drives, stops, pumps, shoots, short, no good...AND THE GAME IS OVER! ~ Bill Schonely
by SandbergOnSports on Jun 5, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions
WEAK ARGUMENT
Nice idea, poor execution. Kinda like Steve Blake running the break.
by StuckeyDuck on Jun 5, 2009 8:55 AM PDT reply actions 9 recs
That is funny.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 5, 2009 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions
There are two different arguments here.
One, is Blake even with or as good as Hinrich. The answer to that is, quite simply, no. I don’t think anybody takes Kirk over Blake on terms of talent. If you’re picking a team and salaries aren’t an issue, you go with Hinrich every time.
The problem is that salaries do matter which leads to the second argument.
Is Hinrich worth the extra money invested in him? This is debatable. On a team like the Celtics, when every penny counts, I think you go with Blake. It’s better to take the lesser PG and spend the other money elsewhere. But the Blazers have enough cash to go around and a lot of young players filling the bench so the extra money for Kirk is probably worth it.
Fribbles! @ www.soulhonky.com
Plus his strengths fill a team deficiency.
Which also increases his talent to dollar ratio in terms of OUR team.
Steve Blake is a perfect back-up point guard.
I don’t think he’s going anywhere, we have plenty of other pieces to acquire Hinrich, but I don’t even think we’re going after him. With the cap space and expendable players I expect more of a home run. Steve Nash.
Oh, and my Dad could beat up your Dad cause my Dad has a chainsaw and a dinosaur. Nah nah nah nah naaah nah.
Life is hilarious.
Outlaw and Bayless for Hinrich
Our 2nd unit of Blake, Rudy, Webster could launch 3s like nobody else!
I have already come down on the no Hinrich side.
It’s not that I dislike Hinrich as much as I think we need & are in a position to get a bigger upgrade.I want a point with more quickness & atheleticism,I think KP has something up his sleeve & the time is definately now as the flexibility goes away with Broy & LA’s new contracts next year.
What would be nice but I would think Hinrich is the best realistic choice we have.
most other teams aren’t wanting us to improve and there are a couple of other teams they could dump their allstars on that are less talented. We do have a lot of pieces however so here I am crossing my fingers and hoping that something big happens
"Knowledge will get you from A to B. Creativity will get you anywhere." Einstein
by Garden of ODEN on Jun 5, 2009 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm all for Hinrich, but I don't want to bury Bayless on the bench.
The whole point of trading for Hinrich is that he would be a Steve upgrade. But I think Bayless has a decent chance of developing into something even better. Ideally, Hinrich starts for a couple of years while Bayless learns his trade. If Bayless really develops, he might supplant Hinrich at some point along the way.
If Blake is a good back-up Hinrich would be an even better one. If Bayless develops and becomes the starter, we can trade Hinrich for a cheaper back-up if necessary down the road.
by upper left corner on Jun 6, 2009 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions
The biggest difference between Blake and Hinrich
…is athleticism. I agree that their skills are similar but Kirk is a much better athlete. This is best illustrated in the playoffs when everyone raises their level of intensity.
Blake was already getting everything he could get out of his below average athletic ability so he had trouble matching the little something extra that the more athletic players he was going up against were bringing. I don’t think that Blake necessarily played any differently in the playoffs than he did all season, but athletically I don’t think he could keep up. It’s a small sample size, I know, but I don’t see how this will change in the future other than the gap widening even more as he gets older.
Hinrich on the other hand has had his best showings in the playoffs. When the intensity level goes up he is up for the challenge because he has the athletic ability to reach that level.
We won 54 games this year. Blake is fine for the regular season. I want Hinrich for the playoffs. That is, after all, what matters for us now.
"I'm polymerized tree sap and you're an inorganic adhesive, so whatever verbal projectile you launch in my direction is reflected off of me, returns to its original projectory and adheres to you." - Sheldon
For the sake of being objective about "The Airball"
Game 3, 4th quarter baskets:
11:44 LaMarcus Aldridge makes 20-foot jumper (Steve Blake assists)
7:52 Steve Blake makes 25-foot three point jumper (Rudy Fernandez assists)
7:11 Steve Blake makes driving layup
5:05 Steve Blake makes 24-foot three point jumper
2:36 Brandon Roy makes driving layup
2:36 Brandon Roy makes free throw 1 of 1
1:25 Brandon Roy makes tip shot
0:23 LaMarcus Aldridge makes 25-foot three point jumper (Rudy Fernandez assists)
0:17 Rudy Fernandez makes three point jumper (Steve Blake assists)
(The infamous air ball) 0:11 Steve Blake misses 27-foot three point jumper
0:03 Steve Blake makes 25-foot three point jumper
Who also missed shots in the 4th quarter of this game: Roy (5 missed shots), Travis (4 missed shots), Rudy (1), Greg (1), Aldridge (1), Blake (the infamous airball). Who turned the ball over in the 4th: Roy (1), Blake (1), Rudy (1).
by RABID_RABBIT on Jun 5, 2009 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Airball
was the most important possesion of the 4th
Sure you could use the “We wouldn’t have even been in that position if it weren’t for him” argument but we both know that Blake royally messed up with that shot. You could argue that was the biggest possesion the Blazers have had since 2003 vs. Dallas.
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
He thought he had the defense unprepared and offgaurd for his shot.
But he seemed to have caught himself unprepared as well to take the shot.
"Knowledge will get you from A to B. Creativity will get you anywhere." Einstein
by Garden of ODEN on Jun 5, 2009 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Over all I will take what he gave us he is a smart player and next time will make the shot
Or better yet pass to Rudy or Roy for the 3.
"Knowledge will get you from A to B. Creativity will get you anywhere." Einstein
by Garden of ODEN on Jun 5, 2009 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions
The "next time" already happened
Game 6 against Houston, Blake was awful. So was Rudy
“When the going gets tough, the tough get going”
The Blazers need more toughness and physicality. And not just in the frontcourt
Name the players that played well that game
LMA, Roy, end of list. Rudy was probably our third best on the court that game, grabbing 8 boards. Getting that kind of contribution from a shooting guard kind of eliminates the “lack of toughness” garbage. Rudy just didn’t shoot well. I think for the most part Rudy’s shooting isn’t the a real concern. Rudy next year is either our 3rd or 4th best player. Complaining about anything Rudy related, especially after his exceptional rookie year is just missing the point.
A pics effectiveness
is determined more by the defender than anyone else. The Celtics are a good example as to why the argument that Blake isn’t a very good Pic and Roll defender.
To start we are all a little biased towards Blake because his backup is possibly the worst pic and roll defender in the league. This makes Blake look a lot better to our eye than he is. Its like the so so looking girl that is the prettiest in her “group”. It’s what you are comparing her to…
Back to the Celtics. Many times this season they have been called one of the best pick and roll defenses in the league. This capability continued even after they lost KG. What is the constant? Rondo.
To successfully defend the pic/roll the defending PG must be able and willing to fight through the pic or be quick enough to go under the pic quickly enough to not allow a play to develope. If you look at Blake his ability to defend when he goes under the pic is hampered because he lacks the quickness to recover. He has all the will to fight through pics but that isn’t always effective. So in the instances when he needs to go under the pic our defense get broken down. Have you noticed how Rondo shades the PG he is guarding away from the attempted pic? He is quick enough to do this and still not get beat down the middle. Blake cannot attempt this. When Rondo does this it limits how close the offensive PG can get to the PIC, thus limiting the effectiveness of the pic and decreasing the need to go under the PIC.
In my opinion, the difference Hinrich would bring is the athleticism and capability to do these very things on D.
Good point but...
If we have a discussion about trading Blake for Rondo, I won’t say it’s stupid. Everything you just said about Rondo being better than Blake, you could repeat saying Rondo is better than Hinrich. I mean seriously, why don’t we compare CP3 to Blake? Blake vs Hinrich is a fair discussion, of two solid traditional point guards, who make their teams better. When you start comparing guys like Rondo, you are walking from the Lexus dealer to the Farrari dealer next door. If you can afford it, you might go there, but it might not be practical when you also have to pay for your other expenses. I would love to have Rondo start and Blake as 2nd unit, but I don’t think we have the cash for him, CP3, Billups, Harris etc.
Ummm
My point is that Hinrich LIKE Rondo have the SKILLS to do the things on defense that Blake has not demonstrated that he can do. Plus Hinrich is an upgrade on offense. Can Hinrich have as big an impact on Portland as Rondo has the Celtics …possibly. His defense is that good. Blake for sure cannot>
Come on, Hinrich is not an upgrade on offense.
Let’s be real.
Hinrich shot a good percentage from 3
I can see him upping that even more on the Blazers were he will get more open looks.
"Knowledge will get you from A to B. Creativity will get you anywhere." Einstein
by Garden of ODEN on Jun 5, 2009 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions
HInrich also shoots more FTs than Blake
Kirk is more likely to penetrate into traffic and use his body to create foul trouble for the opposition
Steve takes 2 dribbles into the paint, the turns around and retreats. It helps keep his assist-to-turnover ratio up high
But as they say “nothing ventured, nothing gained”
I don’t trade Blake for HInrich, though. I’d try to find a way to add Kirk and keep Blake as his backup. The two of them as a tandem would equal championship-caliber PG play
Blake plays defense like a screen door
The inbound to McGinnis, drives, stops, pumps, shoots, short, no good...AND THE GAME IS OVER! ~ Bill Schonely
by SandbergOnSports on Jun 5, 2009 12:12 PM PDT reply actions
I love how the topic of this Fanpost immediately attracts all Hinrich supporters
Actually I hate it. We have nobody to argue with!!
I’m going back to Dave’s post…
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
Allow me to clarify
I left out something important in this post, that most of you know. The reason we should not go out and pay more for Hinrich, is because we need to spend money on a power forward. The Blazers weakness is in the post, inside scoring, defense in the paint etc. Channing Frye couldn’t help us, and Lamarcus is by nature a jump shooter. We need some post scoring in the second unit, which we probably won’t get from Joel. To spend our total available cap space on a player, who I think anyone would have to admit, is only a mild upgrade from Blake if at all, is what the title of this thread suggests. I mean, to me it’s hard to take seriously, and poor Hinrich will get the Blake treatment if Oden doesn’t start playing to his potential, or gets injured next year. If Oden can keep his hands up, he can avoid half the foul trouble he gets in. I figure you keep Blake, improve Oden, improve the team defense, and spend the money on a power forward, who can bang in the post, give Lamarcus a break, and pick up his slack if Lamarcus gets injured. Do you really think we can count on Lamarcus playing 81 games again this year? He needs a legit back up, who will be the second scoring option after Rudy in the second unit.
If you are going to upgrade at PG, make it a real upgrade, not a tweak to a guy who did his job this year, when it was Sergio that couldn’t cut the mustard, and Bayless who wasn’t ready to play.
Also the point of talking about college careers, is to point out that you have a better glimpse of what a guy is, when he is in the driver’s seat of a team, and for guys who don’t get drafted to lottery teams, you may not see them in that way again for a long time. That doesn’t mean they can’t play. For instance, is there any doubt that our own Bayless, would be tearing it up, had he gone to one of the bottom teams. Yes he’s immature, but with a chance to start every night, he would get to make some mistakes, and stay on the floor. Kirk Hinrich got that chance right away, because he went to a Lottery team, who picked him over TJ Ford for reasons unknown (I believe TJ’s stock dropped due to an injury his senior year. That’s just from memory, so I could be mistaken on that). Anyway, where you end up in the draft, can kill off a player’s career, or jump start it.
The luckiest scenario for a player is the Luke Walton maneuver. That’s where you are a decent but not amazing college player on a solid team, who is not good enough to go to a lottery team, so you get drafted by the NBA champions who happen to have some minutes for you here and there, with Kobe and Shaq. Walton is a heads up guy who made the most of those minutes, and has been a regular contributor ever since. That’s having your cake and eating it too. It helps to have a famous dad.
Spend the cap space on the real need of this team, inside scoring, or get a PG so good, it will negate that weakness. Do you seriously think Kirk is that good? You already know I think Blake is better, and we already have him for half the price of the overpaid Hinrich.
so what your saying is
the back up power forward is more important to winning than the starting point guard.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
oops hit the post button too soon
If that is what your saying, I don’t agree. While I agree that the back up PF spot needs to be address, I think we can get that done for very cheap, many options are available for under the mid-level exception.
A starting pg however is much more expensive, just look around at the salaries of the good PGs in the league, an avg of $9 million per year is a pretty good deal for a vet pg with playoff experience. I would not be disappointed if Hinrich was who the Blazers targeted and aquired, he is not my first choice, but he is a good upgrade and worth the extra cash.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
by usmcr3049 on Jun 5, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Our starting PG has been winning
54 games plus two in the playoffs. Where we were exposed in the playoffs and most of the games we lost, was not at PG. Blake rarely turns it over, and he gets assists and points at a rate better than Derrick Fisher for instance. We were exposed for our inability to score at the hoop, and get to the foul line. Our bigs, Oden and Joel not being offensively useful enough (yet), and our inability to deny second chance points by rebounding on the defensive end. A PG is not going to address those needs other than that I would like to see Blake get to the line more next year. A forward will address all those things.
To me the player won’t be so much a back up power forward, as play in multiple line-ups as Outlaw does now, which has him on the court with Lamarcus a lot of the time as SF, and PF at other times. He would be the guy who can catch the ball down low, make a good post move, and if he misses, Oden or Joel is there for the clean up jam, which is something we know they can do well, as opposed to post moves (so far). I would love a guy like Milsap to do just that. Whether he’s a starter or not doesn’t matter as much as that he would play significant minutes like Outlaw does now, but in the paint rather than on the perimeter, and play defense and rebound unlike Outlaw. In other words, someone who could have helped us hang with the Rockets.
We absolutely lost the playoff series at the PG position
Aaron Brooks had 50 pts on 19/29 shooting in the first two games. When a mediocre guard like that can torch you, you wonder what a talented PG like CP3 or Tony Parker will do to you in a playoff series. This is why it is imperative that Portland upgrades its defense at that position.
Look at the dichotomy between the two players this playoffs. Steve Blake lets Aaron Brooks in the lane at will, while Kirk Hinrich frustrates Rajon Rondo so much that Rondo throws Hinrich into the scorer’s table. Hinrich also does a solid job of defending Paul Pierce in isolation late in the game.
It seems like a lot of people who are against the trade want to look solely at the offensive numbers. Since the players play similar styles and put up similar offensive numbers, people are against trading for a more expensive player despite the fact that they are worlds apart in terms of defense.
The Blazers offense is already good enough to win in the playoffs. If they can improve their defense without jeopardizing their offensive production, then they should do it.
by Salem Stephen on Jun 5, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Blake's PER for the playoffs was #13 among PGs.....
16 teams in the first round, and our starter is #13. Furthermore, PER is primarily an offensive metric.
Blake competes and he contributes to the teams success, but we need an upgrade if at all possible. If we can’t land Hinrich or an alternative at the right price, I can live with Blake for another year to see how quickly Bayless progresses, but we need improved PG defense.
by upper left corner on Jun 6, 2009 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Doesn't PER reward people who have the ball in their hands?
Being on the Blazers will hurt your PER as a PG (just like being on the Lakers). It’s Roy’s fault. We need to trade Roy so he can fit with our new high PER point guard.
Realistically
with LMA playing 35+ mins, (38+in the playoffs) and Oden and Joel playing all 48 mins at center, who many minutes do you see a “milsap” type player getting? Outlaw got his minutes because he could play the 3, but a banger 4 wouldn’t be able to do that.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
Our starting PG has been winning
54 games plus two in the playoffs. Where we were exposed in the playoffs and most of the games we lost, was not at PG. Blake rarely turns it over, and he gets assists and points at a rate better than Derrick Fisher for instance. We were exposed for our inability to score at the hoop, and get to the foul line. Our bigs, Oden and Joel not being offensively useful enough (yet), and our inability to deny second chance points by rebounding on the defensive end. A PG is not going to address those needs other than that I would like to see Blake get to the line more next year. A forward will address all those things.
To me the player won’t be so much a back up power forward, as play in multiple line-ups as Outlaw does now, which has him on the court with Lamarcus a lot of the time as SF, and PF at other times. He would be the guy who can catch the ball down low, make a good post move, and if he misses, Oden or Joel is there for the clean up jam, which is something we know they can do well, as opposed to post moves (so far). I would love a guy like Milsap to do just that. Whether he’s a starter or not doesn’t matter as much as that he would play significant minutes like Outlaw does now, but in the paint rather than on the perimeter, and play defense and rebound unlike Outlaw. In other words, someone who could have helped us hang with the Rockets.
Game 6 against Houston
Elimination game, Blake was awful
OTOH, Hinrich played really well against the Celtics
I want them both. A Hinrich/Blake backcourt is championship caliber and both players would compliment Roy very well
You will always need 3 PGs in case of injury, so Bayless remains and plays out his rookie contract (similar to Sergio = 3 years)
Re-evaluate the PG position next summer and see if Blake or Hinrich returns for 2010-2011
by two4larue on Jun 5, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The whole team blew that game
Houston wanted it more, and Nate made the fatal mistake that a lot of silly fans were asking for. He started Rudy over Batum, which allowed Artest to go nuts, and we still never had an answer for Scola on D (The PF we need real bad.) Blake did a good job of keeping Brooks under control after game 1. Rudy starting meant no Rudy to come off the bench, and give us a boost. We could have played Rudy more minutes without changing the starting line up that had just won game 5. You don’t change what works. Orlando just had to play Jameer Nelson, after getting this far. Get him some minutes sure, but don’t mess up the rhythm of the team to do it. It may not be the reason for the loss, but I knew as soon as it was announced he was playing, they were going to blow game 1 if he played more than token minutes. You don’t mess with what is working, while you are in the middle of it. Hopefully Orlando regroups, but that’s a different topic.
I agree re: Artest
I was all over not starting Rudy because Artest would post-up Roy and go off, and it played out that way to the tune of 27 points. The Rockets were a terrible matchup, in part because the roster wasn’t improved at the deadline
But Roy needed Blake and Rudy to show up for game 6 and they were both AWOL. “Leadership” comes from the PG position. Even Blake blamed himself for that loss (as well as game 4) So Steve shouldn’t get a free “pass” during offseason discussions re: upgrading the PG position. The fact is, Hinrich should’ve been acquired in February when Blake’s shoulder was hurt. Then maybe we’d be taking about Portland “blew” the round 2 series against LA, instead of focusing on Houston and round 1
I agree that a backup banger PF is a priority, I said so in February. But it doesn’t necessarily have to be a big ticket item. KP should be looking for someone to play 10-15 minutes behnd LMA, and stay away from high-priced FAs (like Bass) who won’t be happy with that kind of role.
Roy and Rudy together in the playoffs was our only good lineup...
I was all over not starting Rudy because Artest would post-up Roy and go off, and it played out that way to the tune of 27 points.
http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/0809POR2.HTM
Our top 5 lineups with both Roy and Rudy in these playoffs went a combined +23 in 81 minutes which comes out to be +14 per 48 minutes.
http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/0809POR2.HTM
It was the only reliable combination (player pair) in the series.
Take a look our starting lineup without Rudy (-20 in 50 minutes). As it turns out, our best chance to win was having Roy and Rudy out there at the same time.
I think you need to reevaluate what Rudy brings to this team, especially as a near perfect pair with Roy at the wings. Even against a matchup you would think it wouldn’t work against (Houston) it proved to be among our most successful lineups. Imagine what it could bring against lineups that we match up better against. I’m not advocating starting Rudy, but playing him more with Brandon, as it seems to bring big returns when we use it.
I like Rudy, Roy, but I don't think those numbers tell the story.
I also might add that top line-up also includes Blake with Rudy and Roy, and without Blake the stats drop significantly. The line up with those three is a small line-up with good ball handling, and shooting. It lacks inside presence though, so over the long haul might hurt depending on match ups.
During the Houston series the team was so over matched in general, and so discombobulated, that the stats don’t really give us much reliable data. The only guy on the team who brought his usual game was Roy. The rest of the guys were inconsistent and out of sorts. Nate tightened and completely altered the rotations, which threw the team for a loop as well. Remember Frye playing center for part of game 1? Starting Rudy over Nick was just as disastrous in game 6. After game 3 it was revealed in a post game interview that Aldridge was instructed to let Scola have his open shot from 12’, and stay doubled on Yao. That was what threw that game away. Scola hit every one of those shots. Finding out that was the game plan blew my mind. Who on the coaching staff thought Scola couldn’t shoot? Look at how we didn’t front Yao in game 1. He went 9 for 9! Game over! A bunch of mistakes were made, which only added to the mental factor, which really let it get out of hand.
We got desperate and went to the Rudy, Roy line-up, but in doing so threw the team under the bus. Who can give Roy a break if not Rudy? Outlaw didn’t show up for the series. Switching to random line ups was a result of panic. I’m not saying Roy with Rudy is a bad idea, but I don’t think it actually did us as much good in the playoffs as some seem to think. I think it took Houston a game to realize Artest would have that mismatch. They were hoping Nate would start Rudy.
This playoff series exposed our youth, and some weaknesses. The Rockets were the biggest mismatch we could have possibly had in the post season. If we make the adjustments to match up better with them, we will be able to beat anyone. I think those adjustments are toughness and inside scoring to get them into as much foul trouble as they get us into, and make them take difficult shots. To blame Blake for all of that, is just making him a scapegoat, for all the team’s problems.
For the person who said if we had traded for Kirk at the deadline we would have been talking about losing in the second round to LA instead, I have to say; give me a break. The Rockets had us beat at almost every position. Most notably Scola killed us all series, while Battier Artest and Wafer took turns. Blake didn’t defend any of those guys. Brooks went off in game 1 after Yao had gone 9 for 9! plus got to the foul line every time he was touched. Yao had sealed the game, and the Blazers had to double him, with Blake giving help, which let Brooks who is a knock down shooter hit a lot of open shots, and since Joel and Greg were in foul trouble from Yao, they couldn’t help if Blake got picked, so Brooks got some lay-ups as well. The rest of the series he had much less of an impact, and his game 2 numbers only look good, because he hit a couple desperation threes after the Blazers had already sealed the game. One was from almost mid-court with Blake’s hand in his face, and one was with Roy guarding him. Blake played good defense from game 2 on, and our centers fronted Yao, which got the lane a little more under control. We won game 5 and then changed the game plan for game 6, which was a mistake.
Don't you have some mod powers to fix that?
Can’t you ‘ban’ your original post and start over or something?
Hinrich is fine & so is Steve Blake. Neither are blow your socks off guys. But it is our defensive ability, not our offense, that we are worried about here right? Blake may be better offensively. But we can’t afford to give up so much to to oppositions’ penetrators.
Our future is getting more risky if we put all our eggs in the Bayless basket (what most BEdgers appear to want).
I have no idea. I'm new to this.
This was my first post, because I was sick of hearing, not only all about the PG being the problem with the team, when the lack of inside presence is clearly the problem from where I’m sitting, but to hear so many people talking about Hinrich, who is almost the same player as Blake. If people want Chis Paul, Rondo, Rose, Harris, Nelson, Brooks, Miller, or guy with that level of talent, okay, but trading a guy who is working well, for an almost identical guy, is fans just thinking the grass is greener, when we can spend our money in a smarter way. Go big or go home. If you are getting rid of Blake, get a top flight talent. Kirk Hinrich ain’t it. Turkoglu might be had for similar money, 9-10mil and he would have way more impact on the team for instance, but still not fully address the PF or PG issue. Orlando’s guards know they have Howard waiting to back them up, if they get picked. Our guys need to know they have Oden, and he’s still getting there. When Oden gets a little better, the team will get a lot better. People seem to think that if we had a guy a little better than Blake the team would be a lot better, but I think they are focusing on the wrong guy. Oden missed half the season, and we still won. Is the PG really the key to winning more, or is it our #1 pick getting his game together? I mean really, think how good this team can be if he starts scoring and defending smarter. An aggressive PF will help Oden get points and rebounds, because they won’t be able to double on either guy or Roy. Lamarcus wants to shoot from outside, so he doesn’t help Greg get going. We need the PF, not the PG. We do need to replace Sergio though, and give Bayless a shot with the 2nd unit, or trade him.
Umm
Obviously we would take Paul, Rose, Harris, Nelson or guys like that over Hinrich, but those are all pipe dreams. And Miller or Brooks being better than Hinrich is fairly laughable.
Turk plays a position that we are overloaded in, and Batum is going to be ridiculous for a lot less money than Turk soon.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like Brooks :)
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
Our post play is actually pretty strong
LMA, Oden, and Joel all average over a block per game. Total rebounding between the three is off the chart. Scoring will go up as Oden developes. Yes we need a backup 4 but that is by far the easiest position to fill in the in the nba is backup PF. They are cheap and abundant. The hardest positions to fill are pg and center. If anything the Houston series proved is that our point guards are lacking.
by Odenrising on Jun 5, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not really since we got killed by Scola...
I think Lamarcus letting him shoot uncontested from outside, and not being able to stop him in the post was a big problem. Also not fronting Yao, as the whole league knows you have to in game 1 was a huge problem, and he made us pay big time. The rest of the series Joel and Greg fronted him, and Blake and Roy did better at controlling Brooks, but we got killed by Scola the whole series, and Battier, Artest and Von Wafer at times.
If only we had Kirk Hinrich to stop that Scola and Battier. Those guys are forwards. What series were you watching?
Bad matchups all around
First of all, Yao proved in the first half of game 1 that he couldn’t be single-covered. LMA had to “shadow” Ming and that left Scola open at the elbow. Good coaching by Adelman. (Yao also neutralized the Blazer centers in the rebounding department (kept Greg/Joel off the offensive boards, an advantage that was a big part of the Blazer’s late-season success)
And Portland had no answer for Artest. Everyone was telling me “ah, just let Ron-Ron shoot” but how did that work out in game 6? During the series, Travis did the best job defending Artest. That should tell you something about Roy as a SF defender (bad idea, regardless of the PER stats) and that Batum needs to be in the weight room this summer.
Battier just parked in the corner or at the top of the key and shot 3s. (Shane would be a perfect Nate McMillian system SF, as most of us were saying at this time last summer)
Yes, Hinrich could’ve helped "contain’ Brooks in game 1 and thoughout the series. And Kirk could’ve given AB a lot more to think about on the other end of the floor than Blake did.
“More” is needed at PG. But that doesn’t mean that Blake doesn’t have a role in the Blazer’s future. Just not as a starter
Again, numbers contradict your position against Roy
not only in the regular season, but in the playoffs as well.
http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/08POR5.HTM#bypos
In the 50% of his minutes at SG we were -7 points per 48, while in his 32% of minutes at SF we were +2 per 48. Notice how it’s not the defense that changes as much as it is the offense. Rudy provides a great compliment for Roy on the wings, and it drastically improves our chances to win games.
At a certain point I think people will realize that when it happens over and over and over and over and over again, it’s not an accident. That is the argument for Roy at SF more often. It has worked every year he’s been in the league, and it again proved itself in the playoffs as the better fit.
Oden missed 21 games
Oden missed half the season
the last time I checked there were still 82 games in a season which puts Greg much nearer the missing the one-quarter of the season mark.
"You said that I was right... you're right, I know that I was"
You got me there
Let’s say we throw in the time he was in foul trouble, and then say he was out half the season.
You got me there
Let’s say we throw in the time he was in foul trouble, and then say he was out half the season.
Sorry, I was talking to usmcr### about banning HIS original post there above ours here. ;)
He is a mod I think, so I thought he might have the power to fix his own post without double posting, lol.
You are fine, you broke our site culture a bit, but our rules are to be understanding when someone tries out their first post. So you are well within bounds historicaly.
Lots of us agree with you. They are just tired of the same ‘ole lines from the Hinrich crew so they don’t even bother, it can be like talking to a brick wall.
We are happy you are getting your opinion out here, too, because challenging the status quo is something Ben & Dave have really pushed us towards.
Good job.
dang
your right, I could have deleted my first post, then posted it all together.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
NO!!! tha'd be an abuse of power!!!!
I think….. I mean I don’t mean to be the ninny sissy here, but if your gonna play like one of the kids, you should have to play by the same rules….
NO DELETING YOUR OWN POSTS!!!
kk just my 2 cents…. otherwise I’m peachy peachy with how it’s goin. :)
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
Maybe I'm misremembering...
but can’t anyone delete their own posts?
So he said in himself: "O vilest of those wherefor was made the byword: 'The pilgrimage is not perfected save by copulation with the camel!"' Richard Burton, Arabian Nights
no but he's talkin about his comment..... not the post.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
my bad, yeah, stick comment in where post is .....
NO!!! tha’d be an abuse of power!!!! I think….. I mean I don’t mean to be the ninny sissy here, but if your gonna play like one of the kids, you should have to play by the same rules….
NO DELETING YOUR OWN COMMENTS!!!
kk just my 2 cents…. otherwise I’m peachy peachy with how it’s goin. :)
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
I'm not sure I understand why you are talking about development
Blake and Hinrich are both many years into the NBA. How they developed and who they developed with means nothing anymore. I can understand let’s say… Augustine vs Bayless. If you wanna say Bayless is better, but Aug got to play right away, I can see your point. I will disagree with it, but I will see where you are coming from. However, you’re talking about two guys who have what, 7 years in the NBA?
Also, college doesn’t really show what kind of player you are. All NBA players do well in the college game because the players aren’t very good. And winning a title in college is more about who has more NBA caliber players than who has the best NBA caliber player. (Some exceptions come to mind, but not a ton.)
Basically, you’re arguing for a 10-12 minute backup PF being more important than a starting PG. Teams don’t bank on a starter being injured. It happens, but you don’t say “Hey let’s pick up this backup PF in case LMA gets injured.” You take good backups when you can find them for good value. Starts are the key to a team, this is obvious.
If we traded for Hinrich we wouldn't have to lose cap space.
If we get Hinrich I think Blake needs to go to, otherwise there is nowhere for Bayless to play. If we get a power forward then outlaw needs to go because there’d be nowhere for him to play since we’re already stacked at SF. It’s time for Sergio to go to. So why not trade them all for Hinrich. If Chicago would rather have the cap room they can cut Outlaw and/or Blake.
That leaves us with:
Hinrich/Bayless
Roy/Fernandez
Webster/Batum
Aldridge
Oden/Pryzbilla
Then we still have the cap space to sign a backup PF and we can fill out the roster with rookies, low level free agents, and Freeland/Koppenen.
"I'm polymerized tree sap and you're an inorganic adhesive, so whatever verbal projectile you launch in my direction is reflected off of me, returns to its original projectory and adheres to you." - Sheldon
for the forward, Richard Hendrix is the answer
All the scouting reports compared him to Milsap and Boozer. Last summer, KP said he’d be a rotation player by the end of the year.
He’s available for only a minmum wage contract.
Unlike any veteran we could likely get, he won’t become a morale problem when he gets irregular,minimal minutes.
Blake's not all that
College is college, not too relevant to this discussion. That said, Steve had a big PER bump this year. No one thought that would happen. Hollinger argued Blake and Pryzbilla’s jumps in PER were the biggest factors in the team’s improvement, in fact. Can he make a similar improvement next year? Probably not. But at $4M, the Blazers can afford to keep him on the roster through the trade deadline to find out.
Hinrich, on the other hand, while having a similar, if enhanced, skill set, has a multi-year deal that starts at more than double what Blake makes. Hinrich would need to play a lot better than Blake to bring equivalent value. He costs the Blazers flexibility, and relegates Bayless to the bench indefinitely (or, more likely, a trade). I’m ok with the latter, as I’ve noted many times here I don’t think Bayless will develop into a viable NBA PG, but I don’t see the Blazers making a long term commitment to a second tier PG if they can get nearly as much out of the position for less money with greater flexibility.
I don’t believe Hinrich is the difference between a Blazer team eliminated in the first round and one that wins a championship. But like you, I’m an armchair warrior – we’ll see what the front office does in the next month or two.
I think we all agree Kirk wouldn't be "The" PG on our championship team. But he could be.
LeBron and Kobe will be the main competitors for championships for the next 5 years. Getting Hinrich doesn’t concede those championships, but allows us 3 years of highly competitive basketball and then determining who we want to take us to the Champ. Keeping Blake DOES concede those championships
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
Why do we care about "equivalent value"?
I want the best players on the Blazers, not the best “value”. It’s not like we’re scraping through Goodwill here on minimum wage budget. A Camry at $20k may be much better “value” than a BMW 7 series at $80k, but that doesn’t make it a better car. If you can afford the 7-series and you want the best car, you buy the BMW.
Also, this “flexibility” is a myth. We have none after this summer anyways with Roy and Aldridge’s extensions kicking in, and Blake and Outlaw needing new contracts. This isn’t a matter of use it now or later, but use it or lose it. We’d all like a top tier PG, but Devin Harris and Tony Parker aren’t falling out of the sky. Hinrich is one of the best guys we could reasonably get without giving up any of our top 4-5 assets.
by Royster on Jun 5, 2009 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's nice to read reasonable comments now and again from people around here.
Indeed, a three-year, $26.5 million financial commitment to Kirk Hinrich would definitely be worth it.
I dunno... I mean about the flexability and the myth part,
cuz you’ll have to agree that KP does a pretty good job of keeping himself in the hot box when it comes to being involved with deals and what not… I think that flexibility, is the ability to keep himself in a position to say NO to alot of crap deals for our team, think about and still turn down some decent ones, flat out turn down good ones in hopes that the great one will come sooner than later, and still keep our team above the waterline and stay in the battle for domination,……. n I think you’ll agree with that. no?
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
If you turn down every good deal chasing a great one,
then that’s not a winning strategy in the long run. It’s a gamble, and sometimes it pays off, and sometimes it doesn’t. He doesn’t have to make a move this instant, but it’s getting down to the point where our options are getting limited with each relatively close milestone.
After June, Blake and Outlaw can’t be used as unguaranteed contracts, so that’s a loss of flexibility. After the deadline, our cap space is gone, so that’s a loss of flexibility. And once that happens any benefit we would have gained from RLEC is completely wasted. So, we’d all like to make sure a great deal isn’t going to happen before taking a good one, but decisions have to be made in the short term in how to use the flexibility, or it’s gone anyways, regardless of whether we do anything.
I understand that the opertunity to cash in on this opertunity is comming and will evaporate.
But what I’m getting at, is that this team after this season won’t be burdened with useless contracts, almost everyone has precieved value, everyone of em, even sergio has some appeal to the right team.. or at least it’s been sugested he does.
that won’t just end. We’ll still have the Talent to be Flexable, it’s just gonna get a bit more painful to pull the trigger…
But we’re not going to be hampered with useless contracts attatched to bad people that we can’t get rid of becuase no one wants em…. now we have the minor problem of everyone wanting our players and them not having big enough contracts to fill the void for the big fish that we want …lol…. flexabilty no?
or we just see it alot diffrently.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
Good point
All of these “let’s don’t change a thing” fans who love all of the current players to death are rooting that “paralysis by analysis” will set in at the Blazer’s HQ
But that kind of inactivity will hurt the team’s short and long-term chances of winning a championship (which is, after all, the goal—not rooting for the same group of good guys to fall short, year after year)
There’s some middle ground between “blow it up and start over” and “let the cake bake”
Here’s hoping KP makes the right roster tweaks, even if it means our “favorite” player is gonzo to improve the ballclub
I pretty much agree. Steve Blake makes smart decisions, and really improved his 3 point game. He
is a solid point guard in the NBA. I think if we are going to go after someone it needs to be a clear cut upgrade. A player that can create his own offense when the defense is really tightening the screws like Houston did to Portland. That’s why I want a guy like Devin Harris on the Blazers.
Even if Hinrich fit in and didn’t diminish the chemistry of the team, I don’t think he would be that much of an upgrade over Blake.
What if both Blake and Hinrich were on the team and we let them fight it out...
I want to root for a team that is loyal to their players. Steve Blake, despite all the negatives people have posted here, is a warrior who gives his all everytime he takes the floor for the Blazers. Like all but the elite players he has strengths and weakness,… as does Kirk. I don’t think Hinrich should be picked up and simply handed the keys to the team.
Is it possible to keep them both and let them battle it out to see who wins the job? Apparently many of you here think this would be a walk for Hinrich…and maybe it would be… but I think it would be the most respectful way to treat a guy like Blake who bleeds Blazer Red and is such a great teammate and class act. I think he’s earned the right to fight for his job. If he loses we have a quality back up and we’ve done what is right by our team (imo). If he happens to win we still have Kirks D and skills when needed.
Would Sergio and Travis get it done?.. or this plus pick(s)?
That's what everyone would like to know
I mean, Serg and Trav for Hinrich is a no-brainer. Then you add a backup PF to the roster and it’s ready for fall camp
(But if you ask Bull’s fans, they’ll say they want Rudy for Kirk…)
So what it comes down to is what does John Paxson want. Does he like Serg and Trav at all? Does he get a better offer from the ’Wolves for Hinrich? Will adding draft choices to the deal make any difference?
I’ve gotta believe that if KP wants Hinrich and the Bulls will accept Serg, Trav and picks? Cap’n Kirk will be a Blazer
(And I’m already on record that a PG rotation of Hinrich/Blake is championship-caliber)
Would it hurt Bayless’ development? Probably. But that’s a chance worth taking on a team where the championship “window” is now open. What’s the point of wasting Brandon Roy’s prime years waiting for a young PG to develop, when you could add Hinrich to Blake and get ’er done right now? Besides, if Kirk or Steve were to get hurt (again) Jerryd would be a valuable guy to have coming off the bench.
3 point guards in the “stable” isn’t an option in today’s NBA, it’s a necessity for an 82+ game season.
conley conley conley conley conley conley....
kk I feel better :)
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
Is the point of this post that a Blake led Trailblazer team could absolutely beat the Blue Devils?
Then I agree. But then again, I don’t watch too much basketball.
We can win with Blake, but his inability to help create easy shots for teammates and limited defensive abilities suggest we look at alternatives. If KP decides that Hinrich isn’t worth the money he’s making or that the Bulls are asking too much. I’m not going to be too disappointed to have Blake instead of Hinrich. It only makes sense to have some kind of plan, other than hoping for Bayless to develop, to try and upgrade the pg position.
I agree with that...
I hope Bayless realizes the potential people think he has but I’m not convinced he will ever be a viable PG. At some point we may have to admit that he isn’t the future and we need to be ready when/if that happens.
Blake is the ideal third guard..
Blake is a bargain and I believe he’s a very important piece on this team. I think the poster is right with regard to Hinrich. Blake does everything that Hinrich does at half the cost. In fact, he’s probably a better shooter than KH. Hinrich is a better defender, but Blake is very solid to. I think the thing that gets overlooked is what Blake means to team chemistry. He leads by example and he epitomizes the character of the team. I think he’s a crucial part of the team’s future because he’s a proven winner, a hard worker and he wants to play here. With all of that said, I think his best role for the team is as the third guard (provided KP finds a better option as a starter). Eventually, Bayless will take his spot IMO, but I don’t think that happens for a couple of years. If KP finds another playmaker (whether it’s a SF or PG), Portland can win with Steve Blake.
Thank You Wingzeta
I have wanted to post something very similar, but have not had the time. I think Steve Blake is a great point guard for this team if his bigs mature a little more and Nate gives them the green light to run it.
Blake and B-rex, who needs a PG? Oh and by the way, those elite point guards that everybody says we need to win it all…guess what, they are all sitting at home just like the Blazers.
by BlazerFanFromDenver on Jun 5, 2009 5:39 PM PDT reply actions
For the last time
Hinrich doesn’t make 2 x Blake’s salary.
He makes 2.5 x the money.
Now that’s a bargain.
but in the op's defense....
I went to the nba site and did their little compare thing….. blake is better than the chicago guy (can’t spell his name), on paper for last season for what it’s worth.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
It's worth about $6 million next year
but we don’t have to pay for it.
That would be the additional cost to us
to “upgrade” to Hinrich (not including players to balance the trade). Who’s our money ball expert? They could tell us just how bad that deal would be financially speaking.
giggle...
our money ball expert has endorsed the plan in theory, and in soundness for value for dollar, at the very least he’s said that it’s not a bad deal.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
Because Norsk and others
Have proposed deals that Blake for Hinrich makes the most sense from the Bull’s perspective
And that may be true. But we’ve got KP in the cockpit and if he thinks the best starting/backup PG solution is Hinrich/Blake then he should be able to make it happen
Personally, I hope there’s a better deal out there that no one can even imagine. But I also hope that Blake/Bayless isn’t the “best KP can do” at PG heading into the ’09-10 season
Awesome
Unfortunately one of the problems with Portland basketball fans is their lack of knowlege about the college game. It’s an NBA town. Their are no other pro sports, and no major college programs in the area. Well, maybe you think Hinrich is so great because you watched his team destroy the Ducks in the Elite Eight, and stopped watching before seeing the Jayhawks destroyed by Blake’s Terps in the Final Four.
Yep, like all the other Oregonians, I just threw my bracket in the shredder and started watching American Idol again after the Ducks lost in the tournament. Now we’re all buying Daughtry mp3’s and have Hinrich myopia.
MLB2PDX!!! (someday...)
by The Cactus Leaguer on Jun 5, 2009 10:01 PM PDT reply actions
To say Hinrich is a much better defender is a real exageration. I think it might be more acurate to say he plays on a team that plays better team defense, but most teams in the NBA play better team D than the Blazers.
As a fan of both Blazers and Bulls, I disagree with this statement the most. I understand as Blazers fan, you probably don’t watch the Bulls a lot, but for this past season, Bulls had horrible defense. Kirk is easily the best defender on the Bulls. Did you see his D against Paul Pierce or Ray Allen in the Celtics-Bulls series? Hinrich is clearly a better defender than Blake on a team that actually plays worse defense than Blazers.
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so."
by Teri on Jun 5, 2009 11:51 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Of your arguments for Blake, I think the strongest is
that we don’t have bigs that are cutting to the basket consistently and so Blake doesn’t get the ball inside as much as other PGs that are looked at as better.
I think that this next season will either prove or disprove your theory, however I believe Blake is capable of playing some exciting basketball when the team is playing at a faster tempo than usual. The one game in which Blake had over a dozen assists (the last two were a bit controversial) was played faster than most of the season before it.
If I am remembering correctly, it was close to that game when Mike and Mike announced that Nate had instituted a new rule about getting the ball up the court within a certain number of seconds, instead of walking the ball up the court every single possession as they usually did. If that recollection is correct, and Blake naturally plays with better court vision and produces better ball movement with a quicker tempo, then I think as the team matures, he will fit the offense better.
It goes without saying that as the team learns how to run the pick and roll more reliably, and how to play team defense more consistently also, everyone will look better including Blake.
"She turned me into a newt!
A newt?
...I got better."
Another good point
The stats say that Portland is the “slowest” team, or among the slowest. A lot of folks blame this on Nate and his “system” I like watching the uptempo game as much as anyone, but I have observed over the years that speed (alone) doesn’t translate well to playoff success.
Blake runs a non-conventional fast break. Rather than taking the ball down the middle of the paint and making the defender commit before he kicks the ball to a wing/cutter, Steve tends to “look up” at half court and throw kick-ahead passes (especially to LMA, who can outrun most PFs down the floor.) This kind of “lob-ahead strategy” works well against tired teams playing on the second game of a back-to-back. Or weak defensive teams that will struggle to win 20-30 games/year. But when it comes to the playoffs, the rested/better defensive teams will take away the transition opportunites and it will take superior athleticism (and execution, and desire, and the ability to break down your defender, etc) to get those “easy” baskets.
And this is where Blake falls short. As someone said above, Steve doen’t have a “playoff gear” to kick into. Bless his heart, he’s giving 110% of what he has every night and that’s why his regular season stats look so good when compared to Hinrich (etc) But ask his supporters about Steve’s post-season stats and you’ll get the standard “small sample size” reply. Sorry, but the team needed Blake to perform against Houston at a higher level than he was able to, and “hoping” that he will get better “the next time around” because of the experience he gained this year is wishful thinking. Sure, the team could get better “around” Blake and they might win a playoff series or two. But is that satisfactory?
Conclusion: I like Blake just fine as a backup PG, I think he would be one of the best in the NBA. He just doesn’t have the “chops” to be a starter, at least not on a championship team in Portland’s forseeable future, anyway
by two4larue on Jun 6, 2009 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Best comment on the Hinrich vs. Blake debate yet
Recced and should be green.
"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder
hard core man...hard core...
uh lets trade for conley :)
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
The more I think about who I would like running the point, the more I think we need a feisty PG
who can penetrate and break down defenses easily, a la Parker, Paul, even Brooks and Alston are headaches when surrounded by shooters and finishers. We have shooters and finishers on this team, and we have a 6’3" short armed ball of intensity just waiting to get playing time and ram his fist down peoples throats.
Breaking News
Steve Blake has been postng on Blazers fan blog under the name “wingzeta”
If I can have the four million bucks, or even 1 million...
I’ll take any bench spot you want to give me.
I'm just a Blazer fan trying to combat the mania of the anti-Blake people in this town.
He’s played great overall, and has more to offer as the team improves. On the one side you have the people who actually think Bayless has what it takes, clamoring for their slashing turn-over machine to take the point, and on the other side, you have the Jayhawk, and Jason Kidd fans who want to slip their guy in before this loaded team goes on a championship run. I have no desire to hand Hinrich or Kidd a championship ring, when Blake is already on the team, and can get it done. We need a PF and a more reliable back up than Bayless to play in front or behind Bayless, and we will go from a 54 win team to a 60 win team. From a first round knock out to a team with no ceiling.
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