Acquiring Players: What It Could Look Like
Yesterday we went into the depths of Portland's salary cap situation. Today we're going to take a look at how that cap space and Portland's other assets could conceivably be used in acquiring players. There are three purposes to this:
1. Seeing the cap stuff in action helps cement it.
2. You'll get a better sense of the value of "flexibility", which has been a byword of this management team since the get-go. They've built the roster for the last couple years specifically to put themselves in this situation. Some of the subtleties of their moves will come out herein.
3. When people talk about moves they usually talk in the abstract. "We should trade X for Y." It's interesting to see the machinations that go into actual deals, if nothing else to highlight that it's not always as simple as X for Y. This should shed a light on how realistic (or not) some of our expectations and proposals are.
Obviously it'd be impossible to detail every conceivable player the Blazers could acquire so we're going to limit ourselves (mostly) to some oft-mentioned point guards. The point guard crop is large and varied enough to show most of the ways we could get people.
Assumptions Regarding the Cap
To standardize this I'm going to make a few basic assumptions:
--The 2009-10 cap is going to come in as projected, $57.3 million.
--The Blazers are going to retain both Steve Blake and Travis Outlaw if they're not traded before July.
--The Blazers will not make a qualifying offer to Channing Frye.
--The Blazers will release any other free agents (LaFrentz, Randolph, Ruffin) who have holds on their cap as necessary.
--The Blazers will be willing to renounce any or all of their exceptions (mid-level, bi-annual, Ruffin traded player) as necessary.
--The Blazers will retain the 24th pick unless traded in the draft.
--Unless I specify that a trade will happen before the draft all trades will use next season's figures.
These assumptions give the Blazers a 2009-10 cap total of $51.5 million, leaving $5.8 million in cap space available with which to broker deals.
Our Players Under Contract
Here is a list of our players under contract for 2009-10 given the assumptions listed above.
|
Darius Miles |
$9.00 million |
|
Joel Przybilla |
$6.86 million |
|
LaMarcus Aldridge |
$5.84 million |
|
Greg Oden |
$5.36 million |
|
Martell Webster |
$4.32 million |
|
Steve Blake |
$4.00 million |
|
Brandon Roy |
$3.91 million |
|
Travis Outlaw |
$3.60 million |
|
Jerryd Bayless |
$2.14 million |
|
Sergio Rodriguez |
$1.58 million |
|
Rudy Fernandez |
$1.17 million |
|
Nicolas Batum |
$1.12 million |
|
#24 Pick |
$0.93 million |
The Blazers also have cap holds for Petteri Koponen and Joel Freeland worth around $820,000 each.
Candidate #1: Kirk Hinrich
2009-10 Contract Value: $9.5 million
Remaining Years: '10-'11 $9 million, '11-'12 $8 million
The Bulls and Hinrich are supposedly parting ways this summer no matter what. Chicago reportedly would like to cut salary, which makes the Blazers a semi-attractive trading partner.
Portland could absorb $5.8 million of Hinrich's contract, leaving at least $3.7 million in salary to be traded to Chicago. The dividing line actually lies just south of Travis Outlaw, as teams are allowed to go up to $100,000 over the cap in order to make a deal happen and Outlaw's salary is exactly $100,000 short of being adequate.
This kind of deal is completely straightforward. The Blazers simply offer Outlaw or Blake to the Bulls for Hinrich. In either case the Bulls get a modest expiring contract on a serviceable player plus they get instant cap relief.
Candidate #1a: Kirk Hinrich alternate
Let's say the Bulls were being obstinate, however. They don't want anything back for Hinrich. They aren't interested in our players. They just want his salary gone, gone, gone. Is there a way to make that happen?'
Yes...but the timetable changes.
As our enormously wonderful friend Storyteller pointed out in the comment thread of yesterday's cap post...and yesterday's podcast post...and yesterday's Blazer Dancer post...and in the printed menu of the seafood restaurant at which my wife and I dined last night...and scribbled in the margin of my heirloom family Bible...and tattooed on my forehead with a radioactive, hypodermic sky-blue Sharpie...both Steve Blake and Travis Outlaw are going into non-guaranteed contract seasons next year. That means the team that owns their contract can do nothing and those two contracts renew at the salaries printed above or the team can renounce them and wriggle out of the contract obligation entirely.
What difference does that make? Normally players entering an option year on their contract cannot be traded until that option is exercised. That's not the situation here. Technically Outlaw and Blake are not in the final year of their contract. That final year is still there, though not guaranteed. That means that both Outlaw and Blake can be traded at any time before July. The team that takes them can then choose whether to pay them next season or simply cut them loose.
In a case like this, where a team simply wants a complete salary dump, those contracts become powerful bargaining chips. The catch is you're using this year's salaries to make the deal, not the 2009-10 salaries listed above. Kirk Hinrich is making a flat $10 million this season. The combined salaries of Outlaw and Blake this year total $8.25 million. Since both teams are currently over the cap, the salaries must match within 25% plus $100,000. This trade qualifies. Done deal. If Portland were willing to give up Blake and Outlaw to get him they could have Kirk Hinrich tomorrow. Chicago could then renounce both players and be completely free of Hinrich's salary obligation. The Blazers, in turn, would add Hinrich's $9.5 million to their 2009-10 cap but subtract Blake and Outlaw at $7.6 million combined, for a net loss of $1.9 million in cap space, leaving them around $3.9 million yet to play with.
See more after the jump!
Candidate 1b: Kirk Hinrich and Luol Deng
Now let's say Portland got greedy and decided it wanted not only a new starting point guard, but a starting small forward as well. And let's pretend Chicago was amenable to listening to offers for a Hinrich-Deng package. How would that look?
First of all, the scenario outlined just above wouldn't work, as Deng is a Base Year Player this season. We won't get into all that. We'll just say it pretty much nixes any trades involving him until the new season salary structure takes effect.
Hinrich is making $9.5 million next year. Deng will be pulling $10.4 million. That totals $19.9 million in salary.
The Blazers are still $5.8 million under the cap in this scenario, which brings the gap down to $14.1 million. And now we begin to see the issue with some of these huge-money players people bandy about. The Blazers can come up with $14 million in salary, but it's going to hurt. The Raef LaFrentz contract is gone. There's some possibility of signing him to a (mostly-phony) sign-and-trade contract and dealing that to another team but that doesn't happen too often. Chicago would really have to desire a complete salary dump to make that work.
Failing that...well...you start with the usual suspects, Outlaw and Blake. That's $7.6 million, leaving $6.5 million to go. The Bulls are probably going to covet talent for those two one-time cornerstone players, so it's not unreasonable that they'd want Rudy as the centerpiece. Let's say for the sake of argument that the Blazers valued Deng enough to do that. That's...what?!? Rudy makes only $1.2 million??? This is starting to feel like finding out you don't have enough cash after the checker has already rung up your groceries. You just have to keep taking more and more players off. We still need $5.3 million in salary. Miles' contract is not tradeable. Roy, Aldridge, and Oden aren't going anywhere in this deal. So you're stuck having to give up Joel Przybilla or Martell Webster and Sergio Rodriguez. Martell's contract runs for a while. Joel's is shorter but more expensive. They'd probably prefer Joel, but this deal is really getting unreasonable. The Blazers are giving up Blake, Outlaw, Rudy, and Joel to get two players, albeit starters. The Bulls are kind of getting a messy roster, albeit filling some holes and grabbing some young talent. This trade is looking more unlikely by the minute.
This example illustrates that flexibility has its limits. One of the assets the Blazers are missing is a huge, tradeable contract. Portland's players come so cheap that they don't have the ballast to take on big deals, either individually or in combination.
Candidate 2: Ramon Sessions
2009-10 Contract Value: Unkown--Restricted Free Agent
Sessions is Milwaukee's former second-round pick, now becoming a free agent. He wants money that the Bucks are unlikely to give. Any team with the resources to do so can make him an offer. However Sessions as a former second-round pick coming off of his second year Sessions lives under the strictures of the Gilbert Arenas provision. We explained this in the comments yesterday, so if you read it there you can skip the next couple paragraphs. For those who didn't, a quick explanation.
You may recall that in 2003 the Golden State Warriors were incredibly high on Gilbert Arenas, another former second-round pick. But because he had been a second-rounder he did not have the guaranteed salary or collective bargaining protection of a first-round pick. The rules stated that the Warriors could only offer him whatever cap space they had. The Wizards had more cap space and made him an offer bigger than Golden State could possibly match. So Arenas flew the coop and the Warriors lost their franchise player.
The league didn't like this so they instituted the Gilbert Arenas Provision. This limits what you can offer a free agent in Arenas' (now Sessions') position. The easiest way to frame it is to say it affects the structure of the offer, not necessarily the amount. The first year of the offer can be no more than the league average. This means by definition the player's current team can always match the offer by using the mid-level exception. You can't automatically steal that player away anymore. The second year of the contract can include a modest raise. The third year and beyond can incorporate big raises. But when all is said and done, the team making the offer cannot offer a contract whose total amount is bigger than what's possible with their current available cap space.
An example of that last, confusing sentence at work: If a team has $8 million in cap space available they basically cannot offer a contract that totals an amount greater than $8 million average per year. So a four-year deal couldn't total more than $32 million. A five year deal couldn't total more than $40 million. The first year of the deal would have to be the league average, around $5 million. The second year would be slightly more, maybe $5.5. In the four-year, $32 million version the remaining $21.5 million would be divided over the final two years.
Now back to the Sessions situation. The Blazers could offer Sessions a free-agent contract. The first season could be no more than $5 million-ish. The second would have a modest raise. The remainder of the contract would be limited by Portland's current salary space. Under the guidelines listed above the Blazers have about $5.8 million in cap room. That means their offer to Sessions could never average much more than $6 million a year no matter how long it gets.
$6 million per year isn't a bad hunk of change, but it's possible that somebody else would offer more than that. It's also possible that Milwaukee would decide to match that, figuring Sessions is going to turn out to be worth more than the league-average salary they'd be paying. In order to make sure they got their man, Portland would likely have to up the deal, bidding out both the Bucks and their competition.
The only way to do this practically would be to renounce some players. The Blazers could always give up the rights to Joel Freeland and Petteri Koponen. That would save about $1.6 million in total cap space which could be added to the offer. Trading out of the draft would save another $900,000. Providing they could find someone to take their draft pick the Blazers could get about $2.5 million more in cap space without touching a single player on their current active roster. That would leave $8.3 million in cap space, making possible that four-year, $32 million offer we just talked about. The Bucks might be willing to match the first year at $5 million but they'd probably run scared from $11 million in the third and fourth seasons.
Failing that, the Blazers could release Steve Blake or Travis Outlaw to clear out $4 million or $3.6 million respectively in cap space. The trick is, that has to be done in June while Sessions can't be offered a thing until July. You're taking a risk of losing a player for no return.
This is an example of how a simple free-agent signing isn't so simple. Portland may have to plan ahead or work some secondary deals to get the job done if this is their goal.
Candidates 3-5: Andre Miller, Mike Bibby, Jason Kidd
2009-10 Contract Value: Unknown--Unrestricted Free Agents
These three names come up often as veteran, star point guards who could give the Blazers a boost for the next couple of years. All are free agents at the end of the year. As such none can be traded. They must either be signed outright off of the market or a sign-and-trade must be worked out with their current teams.
Andre Miller made $10.3 million last season, Mike Bibby made $15.0 million, and Jason Kidd made $21.4 million. Each of those contracts was the ultimate year of a multi-year deal. At their age it's probably unreasonable for them to expect new multi-year deals at that amount. However they're not going to be looking for substantially less, particularly Miller who wasn't breaking the bank to begin with. Any or all of them may take less for a real shot at winning a championship, but that's not yet the job description in Portland. They'd be mentors, tutors, and starters. All three of those categories mandate pay. In order to get any of these players Portland is going to have to cough up money.
$5.8 million per year isn't enough to pay for these guys' kix and jocks. Even in these economic times the Blazers are going to need a little more room to make an offer to Miller, a lot more to make an offer to Bibby, and an exorbitant amount to make an offer to Kidd. This involves going through the gymnastics we just talked about with freeing room for Sessions, possibly more. The Blazers can free up nearly $9 million using simply techniques. Freeing up $14 million would mean a massive roster dump (Blake, Outlaw, first round pick, Freeland, Koponen). Much more than that just isn't possible. And all of these renouncements would come without any guarantee of getting the player we wanted in return. The expensive free agent market is pretty much out of Portland's reach without substantial risk.
A sign-and-trade would take more of the pressure off, as you'd not have to risk renouncing players. You could keep them until the sign-and-trade was executed. However you'd need the cooperation of the player and his current team. Depending on how expensive the contract was, the Blazers could run into some of the same problems detailed in the Hinrich+Deng situation above. But getting between $10-12 million together for a sign-and-trade when almost $6 million was cap space already could be workable, depending on the needs of the other team.
Candidate #6: Stephen Curry
2009-10 Contract Status: Unknown--Draft Pick
I am using Curry as an example of moving up in the draft, not as a suggestion of who to move up for. In order to get him or any highly-regarded point guard the Blazers will have to make a substantial leap in the draft order. The main picks debated so far are Washington at #5 and Minnesota at #6. Either team would be attracted by a team willing to take on one of their bad contracts along with the pick.
The sore-thumb contract in Minnesota is Brian Cardinal at $6.3 million per year. That's are this year's salary, assuming the trade would happen just before or during the draft. Here again Steve Blake and Travis Outlaw both have renounceable contracts, giving the ‘Wolves the ability to dump most of Cardinal's salary. However the only workable combination Outlaw adds Jerryd Bayless to the package. That might well make Minnesota blink but it could also make Portland balk. A Blake package could include Bayless or Rodriguez, but either of those options leaves the Blazers short at the point.
Etan Thomas is the prominent name in Washington. Because of his player option this year he can only be dealt after July, which means the draft pick he was bundled with would come with a salary attached. Portland would have to come up with a little over $11 million in salary and cap space to make the deal work. This could be done by any of the means listed above. Washington would only get the $5.8 million discount in this case, however, since Thomas' contract would expire after 2009-10 anyway. Any team that had more cap space could, by definition, make a better offer to get this pick.
Candidate #7: Juan Dixon
2009-10 Contract Status: Unknown--Unrestricted Free Agent
Like Curry, Dixon is representative of a type of player, in this case the inexpensive free agent, rather than a firm suggestion of a specific player. Our old friend Juan is available on the open market and he played last season for under $1 million. He's a back-up, a stopgap, a player that Jerryd Bayless could easily beat out. But he knows how to play and he's cheap. Besides that, he represents a different kind of option than everyone else listed so far.
If you simply sign him under the salary cap you subtract his $800,000-$1,000,000 from the cap space total and move on, spending the rest on something else. All of the other possibilities are still open. It's mostly no harm, no foul.
However the Blazers are in the gray zone where they have enough exceptions to more than cover their available cap space. They have the mid-level exception of somewhat more than $5 million. They have a bi-annual exception around $1 million. They have the Ruffin trade exception of $3 million or so. That's $9 million in possible exceptions versus only $5.8 million in available cap space in our scenario. As long as the Blazers don't go more than $9-ish million under the cap they are free to use those exceptions instead of the cap space.
So there you have it: eight sample players, at least a half dozen options to acquire them with multiple dozens of permutations possible under each option. And that's just with a limited number of players! Imagine the whole field of the NBA available. Flexibility has its advantages but simplicity is not among them. It will be interesting to read the tea leaves, trying to guess whether the Blazers will zig or zag this summer.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
3 recs |
265 comments
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Comments
Yes!
This post epitomizes why dealing Steve Blake and Travis Outlaw to the Chicago Bulls for Kirk Hinrich prior to the July moratorium is of the utmost importance.
I love it!
by AK1984 on Jun 5, 2009 2:12 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
the sooner the better
the suspense is killing me.
seems like Kirk is pretty obvious to me.
Yellow Mamba FTW!
by northwestj on Jun 5, 2009 2:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The sooner the better?? This trade is of the utmost importance??
Surely you jest. How can giving up two two pieces to the PTB’s success this year, for an oft-injured over-paid PG who has never averaged even 7 assists per game in a season be “the answer.”
I believe these “scenarios” simply feed the fantasy basketball mentality that is unable to recognize the value of patience, a virtue seldom refreshed by the contributors.
I AM A PORTLAND TRAIL BLAZERS SUPPORTER.
by bow4meow on Jun 5, 2009 7:38 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
oft-injured? he’s only had one major injury in his career.
proud hinrichsheeple
by Cablinasian on Jun 5, 2009 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
here is the total history, although I'm also not sure this qualifies as injury prone:
Jan 12, 2009: Missed 31 games (thumb injury).
Nov 8, 2008: Thumb injury, sidelined indefinitely.
Mar 22, 2008: Missed 1 game (right ankle injury).
Mar 20, 2008: Right ankle injury, day-to-day.
Feb 12, 2008: Missed 3 games (bruised ribs).
Feb 6, 2008: Bruised ribs, day-to-day.
Jan 19, 2008: Missed 3 games (back spasms).
Jan 15, 2008: Back spasms, day-to-day.
Apr 23, 2007: Fined $25,000 by the NBA for throwing his mouthpiece into the stands on April 21 against the Miami Heat.
Jan 5, 2007: Missed 2 games (strained left groin).
Dec 30, 2006: Strained left groin, inactive list.
Oct 31, 2006: Signed by the Chicago Bulls to a fivei-year contract extension.
Dec 9, 2005: Missed 1 game (concussion).
Dec 8, 2005: Concussion, day-to-day.
Oct 24, 2005: Chicago Bulls exercised their fourth-year club option for the 2006-07 season.
Mar 31, 2005: Missed 5 games (hamstring).
Mar 23, 2005: Hamstring, day-to-day.
Oct 27, 2004: Fined $10,000 by the NBA for his actions on Oct 25 against the Washington Wizards.
Apr 2, 2004: Missed 1 game (food poisoning).
Mar 31, 2004: Food poisoning, day-to-day.
Nov 7, 2003: Missed 5 games (viral infection).
Oct 27, 2003: Viral infection, injured list.
Jul 15, 2003: Signed by the Chicago Bulls.
by blacknoiseNW on Jun 5, 2009 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here is the ominous list above, edited down to eliminate duplications and non-injury notations... Bottom Line: A thumb injury and a bunch of normal wear-and-tear game misses...
Jan 12, 2009: Missed 31 games (thumb injury).
Mar 22, 2008: Missed 1 game (right ankle injury).
Feb 12, 2008: Missed 3 games (bruised ribs).
Jan 19, 2008: Missed 3 games (back spasms).
Jan 5, 2007: Missed 2 games (strained left groin).
Dec 9, 2005: Missed 1 game (concussion).
Mar 31, 2005: Missed 5 games (hamstring).
Apr 2, 2004: Missed 1 game (food poisoning).
Nov 7, 2003: Missed 5 games (viral infection).
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 5, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to add,
In several of those instances, including the thumb injury this season, he came back quicker than anticipated. He was expected to miss about a month more following the thumb surgery.
So, imo, the oft-injured thing isn’t accurate, nor is he the type that sits for precautionary reasons.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
by wjb1492 on Jun 5, 2009 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and Blake's history
Feb 18, 2009: Missed 8 games (sore right shoulder).
Jan 28, 2009: Sore right shoulder, day-to-day.
Jan 26, 2009: Missed 5 games (separated right shoulder).
Jan 15, 2009: Separated right shoulder, day-to-day.
Jan 14, 2008: Missed 1 game (bruised left calf).
Jan 13, 2008: Bruised left calf, day-to-day.
Jul 13, 2007: Signed as an unrestricted free agent by the Portland Trail Blazers to a three-year contract.
Jan 11, 2007: Acquired from the Milwaukee Bucks.
Dec 30, 2006: Missed 2 games (back injury).
Dec 29, 2006: Back injury, inactive list.
Jul 31, 2006: Acquired from the Portland Trail Blazers.
Sep 28, 2005: Signed as a restricted free agent by the Portland Trail Blazers.
Sep 19, 2005: Signed by the Portland Trail Blazers to an offer sheet.
Jun 29, 2005: Washington Wizards extended qualifying offer.
Jan 26, 2005: Missed 10 games (sprained left ankle).
Jan 6, 2005: Sprained left ankle, injured list.
Dec 26, 2004: Missed 11 games (foot injury).
Dec 8, 2004: Foot injury, injured list.
Dec 3, 2004: Foot injury, day-to-day.
Nov 20, 2004: Missed 8 games (ankle injury).
Nov 1, 2004: Ankle injury, injured list.
Mar 31, 2004: Missed 2 games (thumb injury).
Mar 28, 2004: Thumb injury, day-to-day.
Aug 19, 2003: Signed by the Washington Wizards to a two-year contract.
by blacknoiseNW on Jun 5, 2009 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ditto for Blake: Bunch of small injuries, nothing that major...
Feb 18, 2009: Missed 8 games (sore right shoulder).
Jan 26, 2009: Missed 5 games (separated right shoulder).
Jan 14, 2008: Missed 1 game (bruised left calf).
Dec 30, 2006: Missed 2 games (back injury).
Jan 26, 2005: Missed 10 games (sprained left ankle).
Dec 26, 2004: Missed 11 games (foot injury).
Nov 20, 2004: Missed 8 games (ankle injury).
Mar 31, 2004: Missed 2 games (thumb injury).
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 5, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and Zaig's injury history
Mar 22, 2009: Missed 23 games (rehab for chic-o-stick addiction).
Mar 2, 2008: Missed 1 game (thumb blister from too much Mario Party).
Feb 16, 2008: Missed 3 games (bruised ego, got slapped by a girl).
Jan 9, 2008: Missed 6 games (tongue spasms).
Apr 23, 2007: Fined $.25 by his mom for throwing his gum at her.
Jan 3, 2007: Missed 2 games (strained left groin- This one is funny enough to leave alone).
Dec 9, 2005: Missed 1 game (playing hooky).
Mar 31, 2005: Missed 5 games (explosive d… you get the idea).
Apr 2, 2004: Missed 1 game (food poisoning, screw you Taco Bell).
Nov 7, 2003: Missed 5 games (Clap).
Jul 15, 2003: Signed by Salem Salemites.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Injury prone and a head case to boot.
Too bad Bob Whitsett or the Patterson/Nash team aren’t still in charge. You might have a chance at getting signed.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 5, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, this Zaig dude looks like one to dodge — chic-o-stick addition has "Jailblazer" written all over it...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 5, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
... ADDICTION ...
I hate not being able to edit posts…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 5, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he's additioning them without paying for them ....
… then it’s still Jailblazer.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 5, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those Chick-O-Sticks can really be troublesome
VENTURA: It's drowning. It gives you the complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you -- I'll put it to you this way, you give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.
by 22baylor on Jun 5, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a fact!
And after Apr 2 I will never use 8 free Chalupa coupons in a row!
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We won't have to wait for playoff series victories if we get Kirk
Everything about that trade makes sense for both teams
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 7:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It sucks to look up facts
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hinriki01.html
Aside from his thumb injury this season, the only major ailment he’s had in his 6 year career was a viral infection in his rookie year.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 5, 2009 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not true
see post above…he missed equivalent time with basketball injuries
by blacknoiseNW on Jun 5, 2009 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said major injury
The things you listed happen to tons of players, he’s missed an average of 9 games a season, which sounds like a lot until you factor in that he missed 31 games this season. Sore groins and hamstrings do not count as “injury-prone.” I never insinuated Blake was injury-prone either.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 5, 2009 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
look at it again
“…the only major ailment he’s had in his 6 year career was a viral infection in his rookie year.” isn’t true because he missed equivalent time (5 games) for a hamstring as he did with the viral infection – not because I’m endorsing a view that Hinrich is more injury prone than Blake. The facts are obvious; Hinrich has missed less time due to minor injuries than Blake.
by blacknoiseNW on Jun 5, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+ 1,000,000
Fantasy Basketball !! Exactly !
It's GO time !
by walkoff41 on Jun 5, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is Hinrich an upgrade over Blake?
I don’t get it. Blake had better stats this year in almost every category. Someone enlighten me.
What is everyone basing all the Hinrich love on?
by 6manoffense on Jun 5, 2009 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
shhh
The way things are going, saying you don’t want Superman (Hinrich’s nickname) is going to be a bannable offense. He is God walking on basketball floors. That’s all you need to know about him.
You cannot, for instance, talk about how the Bulls absolutely suck, even with God-rich on their team. You cannot point out that the Bulls drafted Rose to replace him. You cannot mention that even with Hinrich in the game, the Bulls never passed to each other. You can’t point out that we beat them by something like 44 points last year with us playing Steve Blake and them playing Kirk Hinrich.
Seriously, Dave & Ben’s top off-season priority is to convince everyone we need Kirk Hinrich. Do nothing to foil their plan.
by sagcat on Jun 5, 2009 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
They drafted the best available player
They didn’t draft Rose because they needed a point guard — they drafted him because they liked him better than Beasley. Looking back, would you disagree with that?
Sticking up for Travis Outlaw since 2008 and Steve Blake since last week..
by Kaboomm on Jun 5, 2009 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope. I would have taken Rose, too.
The guy is awesome.
But it doesn’t support the theory that Hinrich is the missing piece.
by sagcat on Jun 5, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Seriously, Dave & Ben’s top off-season priority is to convince everyone we need Kirk Hinrich."
Wow, I’d argue the opposite — although I’m biased in this instance — as Dave has seemed to be apathetic toward Kirk Hinrich up until this point, while Ben’s been more focused on hating Steve Blake and loving Jerryd Bayless to be too concerned about anything else regarding point guards.
Scratch that, Ben’s professed his love for other undersized players (e.g., Ty Lawson) and shooting guards in the body of point guards (e.g., Stephen Curry). Nonetheless, I’m not sure it’s fair of you to claim that the head honchoes here of being huge Hinrich fans.
Anyhow, if you wish to attack the Hinrich bandwagon, then I’d suggest targeting Cablinasian, Nick Van Excellent, AK1984 (i.e., me), and a few others.
Well, with that noted, it’s back to watching the “Summer of ’82” episode of Family Ties for me.
by AK1984 on Jun 5, 2009 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget Blog-a-Bull, which has somehow turned 2 years of Hinrich hate
Into “No, really, he’s a good player!” ;)
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 5, 2009 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Whoa man, that's a post full of holes. It's gonna fall over.
1) The Bulls didn’t draft to replace. They even considered Beasley because they’d prefer to have a post player. In the end, Rose was just too good to pass up. Hinirch was not available, and would not now be available, before they got a lucky draw in the lottery. They were happy with him at point up until then.
2) The Bulls took the defending champs to 7, and played one of the best series I’ve ever seen. They may not have been great, but hey, they didn’t look anything close to sucking. That’s just an out and out wrong statement.
3) The Bulls looked horrendous at the beginning of the season, but with Hinrich’s return (and the addition of Salmons and Miller), they pulled out of their tailspin. Not bad for a team anchoring around a rookie.
4) The Bulls offense against us was terrible. There wasn’t much movement. I saw plenty of movement in the Boston series. In fact, I thought they moved the ball very well. And consider, that was against one of the best defensive teams in the League.
5) We beat the Bulls and bad both times, but Hinrich only played one of those games. The game he played in was shortly after his return, so it’s tough to base anything off that, and both were well before the trade deadline when they got their upgrades and became a much better team.
6) You CAN say these things, but there’s a reason most people don’t. That’s because they’re wrong. Most people already know that.
You can get as sick as you want of the trade talk. I’m a Blake supporter too. But frustration’s not much of an excuse for outlandishly bashing a team like that. The Blazers owned them this year. So what? That doesn’t mean they suck.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
by hobobob on Jun 5, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I might amend #3
It was my impression that Chicago didn’t really start to click until after they made the Kings trade. Salmons and Miller really helped gell that team.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 5, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok, you got me
on most of that. For instance, I’d forgotten that Kirk didn’t play in the RG game. That Bulls team that played in that game was the single worst performance I saw in the NBA all year. Left a stink that I’m not going to forget.
Except if you think the Bulls moved the ball well against Boston, then we watched completely different series. I saw a whole bunch of players refusing to pass cause they knew they’d never get the ball back, and forcing shots. Salmons & Gordon especially. To a lesser extent Rose. The fact that this “strategy” worked so often (resulted in baskets) was what made the series so interesting.
And while the games were close and exciting, I have little doubt that the relatively ignored Portland-Houston series was played by two teams who would have destroyed either the Bulls or the C’s.
by sagcat on Jun 5, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defense.
No one will ever say this stuff about Blake.
"Kirk Hinrich (-6.09) re-established himself as one of the league’s better defenders in the backcourt after missing some time with an injury, though you wish he wouldn’t leave his feet quite so much. I’ve never thought quite as highly of Andre Miller (-4.40) or Raymond Felton (-2.36), but each defended both backcourt spots more than adequately and their strong adjusted plus-minus numbers warrant a shout-out here, too "-Hollinger.
"I’m going to tell you exactly what I think about him, OK? I think he’s one of the top defenders in the game, in the league. He reminds me of Jerry Sloan, he reminds me of Michael Cooper. And just like the Chicago Bulls whined about Dwyane, who was getting too many free throws, a great defender like Kirk Hinrich gets away with more." "He’s into you, he’s relentless. He has a reputation as a tough defender and he gets away with more."-Pat Riley
BA coaches voted Hinrich to the second All-Defensive team after the 2006-07 season, a testament to the guard’s tenacious perimeter defense."-Chicago Tribune
“He’s on the ball. He’s a good pick-and-roll defender. He can guard point and shooting guards and some small forwards. So he gives you versatility and experience. Those are valuable things.”-Vinny Del Negro
“We first have to stop Kirk Hinrich. He just can’t keep coming in and hurting us and giving them a spark. We shut Kirk Hinrich down and we can close out the series.-Kendrick Perkins"
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 5, 2009 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think the salient point
is that you do not pay someone $10M to be a below average offensive player. Blake’s advantages as an offensive player and Hinrich’s salary more than balance out in Blake’s favor. It isn’t close.
by blacknoiseNW on Jun 5, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't he making 9.5, 9, and 8?
That’s not 10. And Blake has no advantages as an offensive player, Kirk was just playing SG half the time last year.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except it isn't.
Hinrich is a slightly better offensive player than Blake and miles ahead defensively. Also, Hinrich’s contract goes down every year so it’s not as bad when he gets older. So yes, I think the difference is well worth it.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 5, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nick I'm right there with you, good quotes by the way
2nd defensive team and he made the Olymipic team. The facts are there, I don’t understand how people think a viable comeback is “He’s just a more expensive Blake”
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He isn't a more expensive Blake -
Fact is, an argument can be made that Hinrich is more valuable than Blake, IF he returns to his performance from three seasons ago. 2007/2008 he had an identical win share to Blake, and last season, he dropped off considerably due to injury.
If you want to make the argument that Hinrich is worth the money, you have to project his net benefit to the team. He doesn’t bring better ball handling or passing, he brings an inferior 3-point shot, and he brings an apparent reputation for defense. Add it all up, and you get marginal net benefit (if that) and a quantifiable lower value. With Chicago, Hinrich was a go-to player (pre-2008); with Portland, he would be a complimentary player. For $10M, err, $9.5M, he is not worth it. That is why he is trade bait to begin with.
by blacknoiseNW on Jun 5, 2009 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Winshare....net benefit....apparent reputation....
these is all mumbo jumbo.
When you watch them play you can just see that Kirk is better than Blake. period.
And he is trade bait because of the reasons people have already stated….chicago’s financial sichi and current players
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cool
So Blake rivals an injured Hinrich who had a stupid role on that Chicago team.
What happens when Hinrich is healthy again and can play his own position the entire game?
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about 2007/2008?
What happened to Hinrich that year? As I have stated elsewhere, Hinrich is an obvious upgrade and even a value if he returns to his pre-2007/2008 form. He was injured last year, but there is no such easy rationale for 2007/2008.
by blacknoiseNW on Jun 5, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A few questions
1-Can the Bulls get a better deal then just Blake/Outlaw? Other teams will be shopping for his services.
2-What draft position could we move up to & what player to you would be worth trading up for(Instead of trading for Captain Kirk)? Options:
Tyreke Evans(Gives McMillan the tall PG he covets & he has a lot of scoring skills. Would be “giving up on Bayless”, but his potential is sky high, like McMillan on defense, Gary Payton on offense.)
DeJuan Blair( He is the “low post banger”, near the best that you see in college, extreme length makes up for his height, but doesn’t have the athletiscm of Barkley. Behind Aldridge though, that would not be a problem).
3- What other offers can we get for our packages, not just limiting it to Hinrich.(Give example);(http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=qftdzn- Ridnour, 10th overall(Tyreke Evans-Widens our window out to 15 years, he is only 19) – Bayless, Outlaw, Sergio.
4- Since it is essentially a “salary swap”(they get to cut loose of their hold if they want), we would be in the same cap situation if we were to have accepted both options. What would be some smart deals for KP to make after Hinrich?(PHI #17 overall, Reggie Evans – For – Webster, Sergio)
Note – Going with Hinrich to me suggests KP isn’t convinced Bayless is the full package at PG, at least not for the next few years. But he is only 20.
Offseason:
PG Options:(T)Mike Conley Jr/(FA)Jason Kidd - (D)Rodrigue Beaubois/Toney Douglas
SG Options: (DDT)Terrence Williams
SF Options:(FA)Ron Artest/(T)Tayshaun Prince
PF Options:(DDT)DaJuan Blair/(T)Reggie Evans/(T)Carl Landry - (D)Taj Gibson, (D)Damion James, (D)Kevin Seraphin
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 5, 2009 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see Hinrich as an offensive upgrade over Blake too...
not just on Defense, Hinrich can score. He has proven much more scoring in the past over Blake. Hinrich had three seasons in a row of 15ish ppg, this past season was down due to the rotation change with D.Rose.
Hinrich might not be considered “as good a set-shooter” as Blake from 3-point land, but Hinrich can and will score if he becomes a Blazer. As far as our 3-point shooting, Martell and Rudy and Batum and Bayless are going to need to be huge for us from downtown, I believe Hinrich could have improved 3-pt shooting on our squad.
by Portland Dynasty on Jun 5, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a herd of cows
takes a while to get them moving, and a while to shut them down. Last year it was D. Harris and Calderon and a few others. The Harris herd, the Caleron herd, the Hinrich herd, Colin Cowherd.
by oregonslee on Jun 5, 2009 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
takes a while to get them moving
kind of like Blake and Roy running the fast break?
by two4larue on Jun 6, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guess the link is broken
but well said.
by oregonslee on Jun 6, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like it
Puts Bayless in a role where he could probably 20mpg as a scoring option off the bench & good defense from our #1 PG
Offseason:
PG Options:(T)Mike Conley Jr/(FA)Jason Kidd - (D)Rodrigue Beaubois/Toney Douglas
SG Options: (DDT)Terrence Williams
SF Options:(FA)Ron Artest/(T)Tayshaun Prince
PF Options:(DDT)DaJuan Blair/(T)Reggie Evans/(T)Carl Landry - (D)Taj Gibson, (D)Damion James, (D)Kevin Seraphin
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 5, 2009 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was a fun journey...
I seem to be getting that our best bet as far as value goes, is getting as close as we possibly can to the salary cap (projected at 57.3 million), then using our 9 million dollars in exceptions. Meaning we’d be around 66.3 million dollars after all is said and done. Is this correct?
by as11osu on Jun 5, 2009 2:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
by using any cap space in a lopsided deal, free agent signing, etc. we would forfeit our exceptions and LaFrentz’s Bird Rights.
proud hinrichsheeple
by Cablinasian on Jun 5, 2009 7:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is via an interview Tom Penn did on Courtside.
proud hinrichsheeple
by Cablinasian on Jun 5, 2009 7:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he means
before the moratorium, such as a trade like this, but really brushing against the 125% threshold. Then, if we’re only $3-4 million away, we might be best served by keeping the exceptions and using them to sign guys and giving up on the trade market since we could only do a lopsided deal for a small amount.
by Royster on Jun 5, 2009 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we´re cemented.
It´s a lot of fun to look at the deeps of trading but I think it´s faker than this one:

(Via Zimbo.com)
The Blazers just now seem to have a team that might be one of the best, even the best, in all time NBA history. I won´t argue if you say I´m a homer, because I´m. But I think we have 1 all star, 1 certainly future all star ("free of injuries Oden"), 1 likely future all star, and 3-4 "borderline all stars" in the making. All positions are very well covered. I know we´re not satisfied with our PG situation but… really? We have a veteran solid PG who will be very difficult to improve by a trade, who fits with Brandon, who knows the team. We have two backup PGs who´re two of the best young PG projects, one who fits with Brandon and one who fits with the second unit, each one providing different things and improving.
We can´t build the whole 2010 all star team by trades and we can´t improve easily keeping our window opened for the next ten years, as I think we can. We´re no more in Aquireland. Nobody want us to become better than we´ll be, given only time, and by time I mean a year or two maximum. Celtics and Grizz moved dangerously to hurt our cap space for a reason. The whole league will be committed to avoid us to improve for the future. Most offers we receive, like the Oneal trade, only try to sell us "the present" to hurt our future, when offering teams expect to open their windows.
I think we´ll stand pat and only make minor adjustments. Trading conversations are fun though. And KP is worth any dream.
by amlmart1 on Jun 5, 2009 2:51 AM PDT reply actions 8 recs
I think Portland's core is pretty strong, but
I’d like them to trade away some scrubs to get a good backup at the 4. Perhaps they can draft one, but I think Nick Collison would be a good fit. Maybe OKC would take Rodriguez.
by torsoheap on Jun 5, 2009 2:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow - just don't see it
Greg does not appear to be a future all star nor does he have that killer instinct. I’m not saying he will not show it, but right now we need to let loose of our expectations and let his play do the talking. Greg is a back-up center.
by Sonic Boom on Jun 5, 2009 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excuse me?
Greg had the highest PER of any rookie. Greg had the highest rebound rate per minute of any rookie, and was top ten in the league as a rookie who was in constant foul trouble. If you project Greg’s rookie numbers to 34 minutes a game he averaged about 14 pts and 11 boards per game. Greg’s numbers adjusted for minutes were better than Howard’s first two seasons.
Greg, barring additional serious injuries, will almost certainly become a perennial All-Star.
On what basis do you justify your assessment?
by upper left corner on Jun 5, 2009 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Technically Kevin Love had a higher PER :)
And Michael Beasley in the playoffs. But I agree that Oden should become an All-Star fairly regularly, especially once Duncan and Shaq are out of the league.
by Norsktroll on Jun 5, 2009 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duncan is a PF!!!!!!
At least for ASG purposes.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only because of Yao for ASG purposes
by Norsktroll on Jun 5, 2009 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Yao will be around longer than Duncan
So Oden shouldn’t ever have to compete with Duncan! He could grab the backup spot as soon as next year, but it’ll likely take 2 more years.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
unless Yao's foot problems are as bad as Bill Walton's
and I think that is a definite possibility. – Elgin
VENTURA: It's drowning. It gives you the complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you -- I'll put it to you this way, you give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.
by 22baylor on Jun 5, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
You never know, big Z was hurt for years but finally got his “feet” together and has been relatively healthy (he’s not quick, but at least he’s not on the DL)
Big/heavy guys, repeatedly jumping on their high arches = bad idea
by two4larue on Jun 5, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Non-believers in Greg....
prepare to commit the FAN-equivalent of hari-kiri…. you have NO HONOR therefore you will sever yourselves from this honorable band of people….
Greg is the man, will be the man for a long time, and he will not be accepting appologies.
by Portland Dynasty on Jun 5, 2009 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
rec
This last season was wildly successful for the Blazers. It’s possible they might have gone a bit farther in the playoffs if circumstances had been slightly different. Nevertheless, there do seem to be a few weaknesses or at least perceived weaknesses to address. Let’s look at them …
1. Starting point guard. Many people claim that Blake is simply not good enough to play the point on a championship team. I disagree. We don’t need a start at every position, and Steve is certainly competent and dependable. There seem to be three common criticisms of his game: defense, shot-creation, and the fast break. It seems to me that perimeter defense these days is really a shared responsibility and that it is only possible to do well when everyone knows his role and can execute the plan flawlessly. That will just take further practice and seems achievable for the Blazers, given their overall intelligence and strong work ethic. Steve doesn’t have to contribute more to the offense than he already does. He’s fine hitting the 3-pointers and occasional teardrops. We don’t need everybody to be a Brandon Roy. Finally, I’ve criticized Steve several times on BE for his handling of the fast break. However, I’m thinking it’s not something he can’t do well, but there’s a kind of mental block he’s fighting. Maybe it has to do with self-confidence. At any rate, it’s something a smart, hard-working and reasonably skilled guard can improve at, and I’m content to trust him to do so. Bottom line: Steve Blake can do the job.
2. Back up point guard. We’ve got two talented players who need more work on aspects of their games. Nate will have to pick one and the other will likely be pretty unhappy getting only garbage time minutes, so we might see a trade here. But in this case, it wouldn’t really be a trade that the Blazers need to make to improve. Many of you know I’ve been a Sergio fan. I still am, but I’m hoping he gets a chance to play with some regularity for another team if not for the Blazers next season. I’m also optimistic about Jerryd and think he might just need some regular burn to start playing more like a point guard. He did start passing the ball more frequently and showing more court awareness as he got more experience last season.
3. Low post banger forward. It’s true we don’t really have a good player who fits into this category. And even though I think it’s debatable whether we actually need one, it seems that Joel Freeland might fill the bill. He’s been playing well the past year in Europe, and just may be the guy we need. Otherwise, I have confidence in the Blazers ability to find talent in the draft and pick up somebody with the #24 pick. In general, I think all the Blazers will be playing with more toughness as they continue to learn and grow.
4. Veteran experience and steadiness. The Blazers are going to be another year older next season, with another year of experience under their belts, including enough playoff exposure to open their eyes to what is required of them and inspire them to go further. If the team basically stands pat, the need for veteran help will be increasingly less pressing.
The Blazers are a very young team but already showing signs of being able to dominate many of their opponents. I fully expect Greg Oden to break out next year. If he does, and if the other young players, like Batum and Rudy and LMA, continue to improve, Portland could go all the way. That’s my hope and prediction, and I’m sticking to it.
"Just kidding"
by CatMan2 on Jun 5, 2009 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
!!!
We don’t need a start at every position
Yes we do, there is no way we can win with 4 guys on the court!
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a good post
I’m just in one of those moods!
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rec, rec, rec, and rec.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 5, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm starting to agree with you...
Unless someone drops a gift in our lap, such as CP3, Deron Williams, or Carlos Boozer, I think we should hold the cards we have. Remember, Martell’s coming back too. Most people on this site won’t agree with me, but if Martell is healthy, I think he’ll beat out Batum for the starting position. Why not leave it alone for one more year and see what happens with a healthy Martell and hopefully an improving GO? As was stating in earlier blogs, 54 wins!!!
by toolman on Jun 5, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2 games into preseason, and definately 5 games into regular the starting spot will be Martells.
DO NOT doubt Webster>J*rdan/K*be
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
by faith on Jun 6, 2009 3:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup, However, the inability to be patient
once the team started to show some success is perfectly predictable. One more reason to be glad KP is in fact running the show and not a fan vote.
by raoulduke on Jun 5, 2009 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, go ahead and sit on this last opportunity to improve the ballclub
Once Roy and LMA get their LTCs, you won’t get a better opportunity
(Just don’t lament the lack of capspace down the road when the undermanned Blazers keep getting bounced in the playoffs)
It’s like the road sign on the edge of civilization “Next gas station: 200 miles”
The time to fill ’er up is this summer. Dont blow it off now and leave Brandon “stranded” in a couple of years
by two4larue on Jun 6, 2009 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a difference between improving the team and abandining a plan
that’s working for a short term gain. I’m a lot more interested in where the team will be in the playoffs in two or three years than next year.
I like watching players develope. Watching Batum was the highlight of the season, seeing Roy take it to the next level was a heck of a lot of fun.
I want to watch Oden and Bayless do the same. We have four open roster spots, caps space and draft picks. It’s possible to improve the team without gutting it.
by raoulduke on Jun 7, 2009 5:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who's talking about gutting the roster?
Maybe you’re reading multiple fanposts that name just about every Blazer player besides Roy and Oden in trade proposals and coming to that conclusion, but the necessary roster changes this offseason require surgical strikes, not carpet bombing.
Sergio is out, by his own volition
Outlaw won’t have enough minutes to play if Webster is healthy, so Travis should be moved
Goals: upgrade the PG and backup PF positions. Improve the team’s toughness and physicality. Bring in a veteran (or two) who have been through the playoff wars and know how to win in the postseason. I’d hardly call that “gutting” the roster
Just because KP has 5 draft choices doesn’t mean he’ll add 5 new young faces. On this team, that would be counter-productive. More likely, he will package several of those picks to achieve the afore-mentioned goals.
Don’t fall in love with every Blazer player, or you’ll be heartbroken when they get included in a deal (Jack, etc) All you have to do is look at the Houston series to see who the real “keepers” are. Don’t let regular-season performances/stats cloud your thinking, either. There are plenty of NBA players who can look good on a Tuesday night in January. The guys you want to keep going forward will step their game up in May, when the strong survive/advance and the weak-minded head off to a vacation spot
by two4larue on Jun 7, 2009 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Loudly second these sentiments.
If Portland makes no changes other than adding a draft pick and/or a couple of free agent signings to replace Raef, Ruffin and/or Channing (I want to see Shavlick remain), I’m totally happy.
I too get a bit tired of fans who seem more interested in building the perfect team, rather than appreciating and enjoying the team we have. I know it is the off-season and trade proposals are perhaps the biggest activity during this time, which is why I’m not commenting on them. But I still have to wonder about the mindset of people who anxiously await trades and express in advance their disappointment should Portland not make a major deal.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 5, 2009 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's how we have fun!
I’d love to upgrade Blake for Hinrich, or trade Trout. The thing is, if we won’t, we will still add wins to our total because most of the guys on our team should be improving still. We also have a fun and likeable team already.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not desperation to get rid of a backup PG and a backup SF for a starting veteran PG
especially when it makes sense long term
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and short term
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who said anything about desperation?
I just said I don’t get the people who say it “has” to happen. That sounds more akin to desperation to me.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 5, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry. I was reading too fast....four cups of coffee
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The trade proposals are fun
but I’m with you on the disappointment when we don’t trade. I’d like our team to be as good as it can be, but I’m more than happy to support the guys wearing the Blazer unis right now.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
by hobobob on Jun 5, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dan Marino
You don’t try everything you can to get better, even the best of teams with the best of players(Marino) are eluded by championships because their management are too scared to make moves or are not good at scouting after the lottery(As in where we will be picking for the next 7 years.)
Offseason:
PG Options:(T)Mike Conley Jr/(FA)Jason Kidd - (D)Rodrigue Beaubois/Toney Douglas
SG Options: (DDT)Terrence Williams
SF Options:(FA)Ron Artest/(T)Tayshaun Prince
PF Options:(DDT)DaJuan Blair/(T)Reggie Evans/(T)Carl Landry - (D)Taj Gibson, (D)Damion James, (D)Kevin Seraphin
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 5, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a difference between the team trying to get better ...
… and fans who apparently insist they know better than team management as to what needs to happen to make the team better.
I can understand that some people get into the whole trade proposal thing, particularly during the start of the summer. Even I can get interested in trade rumors circulating around the league or out of the Blazer front office. And even though I feel that we are well past the point of concentrating on “building” the team, if others still want to do so, feel free. It is when people take the next step and say something has to happen “or else” that eludes my understanding. For me, that shows a lack of understanding of how NBA basketball actually works and how good a team we have already.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 5, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously bloggers don't layout a five year plus plan like the management does
Well maybe some of us do….
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has anyone heard of an appeal by the Blazers over the Miles contract.
I’d love it if we had that extra 9 mil to play with.
Hello Dum Dum
by ryryslyry on Jun 5, 2009 2:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If the appeal fails
Can we trade the Miles contract? How many teams would love to have 9 million dollars of nobody coming off their books at the end of the year.
by jstamp26 on Jun 5, 2009 6:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As briefly discussed here yesterday, no we can't. He counts like a waived player: You still pay him, but he is no longer on the roster.
http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/6/4/898545/the-portland-trail-blazers-cap#16596318
http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/6/4/898545/the-portland-trail-blazers-cap#16582387
by Norsktroll on Jun 5, 2009 6:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What About McDyess as a Back up power forward and he’s a long time Vet.
by billyjoejack on Jun 5, 2009 4:12 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Excellent summary!
Blake for Hinrich makes too much sense. Then use Sergio to move up as much as possible in the draft, and pick either a PF (preferable) or another PG.
by socalblazer on Jun 5, 2009 5:11 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Solves everything
Kirk/Bay
Roy/Rudy
Web/Out
LA/#1Pick
Oden/Przy
Play Batum whenever/wherever
If that happened I’d predict 56 wins, homecourt through two rounds, WCF?….
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 8:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Batum is valued far too highly by just about everyone to be playing whenever/wherever.
He’s a starter this year and his future projects a higher ceiling than any current SF in our roster. He either starts again or is coming off the bench behind the starter.
Outlaw’s future on the other hand looks to be somewhere else.
The ink of a scholar is worth a thousand times more than the blood of a martyr.
by The Pirate on Jun 5, 2009 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nate said on the radio today that Batum will start fall practice as the starter and it will b eup to Webster to beat him out.
by raoulduke on Jun 5, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
pft!! what ever /snarky...
If left up to Webster He’ll be the Man next season….THE MAN.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
by faith on Jun 6, 2009 3:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Batum isn't a scrub
At this point, assuming Webster can come back healthy, Outlaw is our 3rd string SF. Batum obviously isn’t as adept at scoring as Trav. (yet) But his defense and BBIQ are already better in his rookie year than TO in his 6th. The only minutes for TO on next years team is at backup PF. which = CFrye’s minutes from last year. The only reason I think the Blazers will keep him is because he’s only making 3.6 Million. (Unless we trade him for Heinrich)
by Docproc on Jun 5, 2009 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Outlaw, Webster and Batum
are all on the roster next season I would be disappointed, but if that was the case, I think Webster would have to prove he is 100% and would start out as the 3rd sf. That is the worst case senario for this off season though.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
by usmcr3049 on Jun 5, 2009 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no way, marine
Webster comes back and has a decent camp, he’s the starter.
by blaze jose' on Jun 5, 2009 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nic is the starter going into camp:
I had a personal interview with the GM. He told me: "When we drafted you, we didn’t really have a plan for you. Today, we’re really proud of what you have done." He added that he would stop by to see me this summer playing for France. Then I talked with the coach, Nate McMillan. He reassured me because I was a little worried. He confirmed that I would start next year, saying that it was up to Webster and Outlaw to knock me out of the starting five. And if I’m not the starter, I will be part of a second unit whose mission will be to play "small ball." Both cases would suit me well.
by DucRider on Jun 5, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice find
I bet Web beats him out after ten games
I’d put money on it
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how much money??
i could really use some more
fire nate before its too late
by pipgras on Jun 5, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
100 megabucks
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The "small ball" comment gets me thinking
Maybe that means:
Outlaw is gone
Off the bench we would have
Joel at C
Batum at PF
Rudy at SF
Bayless at SG
Sergio at PG
“Maybe” as in “if we don’t add anyone” or just fill in the 11-15 guys for insurance.
I’m not sure it’s a good idea, but it sure is interesting to think about.
by TheThinWhiteDuke on Jun 5, 2009 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Oden is ready to start.
He hasn’t earned it yet.
by torsoheap on Jun 6, 2009 6:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yah Trav should come in behind LA, agreed
Our #1 pick should play the scrub big man minutes
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we don't bring Frye Back
then Outlaw can get the minutes at the back-up 4 position. Granted, that’s not that many minutes – maybe 15 behind Aldridge. If Marty is 100% then he deserves the bulk of the minutes at SF even if Batum starts.
My mom babysat Paul Allen
by shwa on Jun 5, 2009 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
bad on at least two levels
1) Travis is nice and all, but he wil be none to pleased playing 15mpg
2) the undersized/skinny PF idea is lovely until May rolls around
Once again, KP’s 1 stated goal heading into the offseason was: more toughness and physicality
You don’t achieve that goal playing a small-ball lineup with Roy at the 3 and Trav at the 4.
No matter how much they like each other. A real banger to backup LMA is overdue. The Rockets exposed that hole, big time
by two4larue on Jun 6, 2009 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
11 man rotation?
Thats just too large a rotation I would think Portland is ready to consolodate its assets and get the rotation down to a solid 9 players. Its good to be 10-11 players deep but not in a nightly rotation, we need some depth for injuries but thats about it.
I try to help with everything," Fernandez said. "If the coach says go rebound, I go rebound. I work for the team.
""If I'm playing this game to get media and attention, I shouldn't be here," Aldridge said. "I'm here to play basketball, and do what I can do to help this team win."
His stare became blank. It was apparent he was back in that place, on the Rose Garden's logo, picking up Aaron Brooks as the crowd nervously roared.
by Dragonage on Jun 5, 2009 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
I just like these guys too much to not play them minutes…uh ohhhhhh
Obviously KP/Nate has thought about the playing time sichi I wonder what he’ll do about it
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You sound as if a team can "consolidate" assets in the same way ...
… an individual can rearrange their financial holdings.
If one takes away anything from Dave’s post above, it should be that it is not that simple.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 5, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
imho
I think that there was no draft deadline deal this year because KP and co. wanted to be 100% sure who they were going to keep and who is going to be gone. Portland may very well go back to a proposed deal that they turned down on draft day. Portland players seem to be a hot topic, they are all quality individuals and locker room gems….. also they are not very high priced. It just seems like a 2-3 player swap for a piece KP feels will push us to the next level is probably already in play.
I try to help with everything," Fernandez said. "If the coach says go rebound, I go rebound. I work for the team.
""If I'm playing this game to get media and attention, I shouldn't be here," Aldridge said. "I'm here to play basketball, and do what I can do to help this team win."
His stare became blank. It was apparent he was back in that place, on the Rose Garden's logo, picking up Aaron Brooks as the crowd nervously roared.
by Dragonage on Jun 5, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's probably not a bad assumption.
And as most of us here tend to think Mr. Pritchard is one sharp gentleman, it is probably safe to say that if anyone can do it, he can.
I’m just saying that it is not as easy as some fans apparently seem to think.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 5, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll always have shav!!!!
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
by faith on Jun 6, 2009 3:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
KP's take on Blake and Outlaw makes things a bit clearer
"I don’t see a scenario where we don’t pick up their options," Pritchard says. "They’ve both been terrific for us. We like those guys way too much."
by Norsktroll on Jun 5, 2009 6:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Obviously.
If the other option is letting them go for nothing of course he does. But trading for Kirk is a dif story
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 8:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but it doesn't sound like the recently discussed "lets renounce them to generate cap space" is an option he really considers
by Norsktroll on Jun 5, 2009 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What?!
You mean that KP might actually not covet the maximum amount of cap space possible as much as some of us fans posting on an internet blog? I’m shocked – shocked – that you would make such an allegation…..
;)
by Storyteller on Jun 5, 2009 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice reference. I wonder how many people caught that.
proud hinrichsheeple
by Cablinasian on Jun 5, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I don’t see a scenario where we don’t pick up their options"
But this doesn’t preclude a team that KP might trade them to not picking up their options
by two4larue on Jun 5, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's just say that we all agree
That Hinrich is the right move as Dave explains above. Let’s also say Chicago is going to move him also for the reasons stated above. We obviously have a fairly attractive package (if salary dump is Chicago’s objective) to make this happen. But my question is, who also would like a player of Hinrich’s caliber and can offer the Bulls something better? And if someone can, what is our limit (players, renouncing contracts, cap space flexibility, etc..)to acquire Hinrich?
"I saw him in the face" Sergio's quote on the latest alley-oop to Rudy.
by blazermaniac32 on Jun 5, 2009 6:46 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Excellent question
I’d be curious to find out about this as well. Similarly, if of less importance, would be the other teams in position to offer better deals to Washington for their pick.
by Gelvalst on Jun 5, 2009 6:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A rumored candidate are the Timberwolves
They had interest at the deadline, and could still have now if they don’t find the ideal candidate in the draft. The owner reportedly likes Hinrich. Foye is more of a shooting guard than a point guard, Bassy is better suited as a backup, and they would need a bigger guard to play next to either one because they were horrible on defense last year (both subjectively and by the numbers). Tyreke Evans could be the player, but it could also be Hinrich.
Their most aggressive offer would be to include a first round pick (they have three at 6 who they will be very reluctant to move, 18 and 28) and Mike Miller who has one year left on his deal as an expiring contract who would still be a significant addition to the Bulls. They could also offer junk expiring players (Brian Cardinal) instead. Lets say 18 and Mike Miller would be their best offer. But that doesn’t save the Bulls any money. Or Ryan Gomes, who costs the same as Blake next season and has two more years unguaranteed after that.
by Norsktroll on Jun 5, 2009 7:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other teams in the market for a PG with FA dollars
The teams with more cap space that we have include:
Memphis Grizzlies – Projected Max Cap Space: $19.7 million – Conley and maybe Rubio means they don’t need Hinrich.
Detroit Pistons – Projected Max Cap Space: $19.6 million – Only if they think Stuckey is better off the ball, which he is and that Will Bynum is better suited as a backup.
Atlanta Hawks – Projected Max Cap Space: $17.8 million – depending on how the Bibby discussions go, but the Hawks could be a buyer here and have the space.
Oklahoma City Thunder – Projected Max Cap Space: $17.1 million – Rubio vs. Hinrich? Who would you take?
Sacramento Kings – Projected Max Cap Space: $13.7 million – Rubio vs. Hinrich? Who would you take?
Toronto Raptors – Projected Max Cap Space: $11.6 million – Calderon is locked up long term. Raps don’t need a PG.
So the short answer looks to be the Pistons, Hawks, Thunder and Kings could all make a run at Hinrich or any other PG for that matter with a combination of picks and cap space to keep it simple.
by hkphooey on Jun 5, 2009 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks
I think this might/should be something that the Hawks should look into. Young nucleus, Bibby is aging, Acie Law hasn’t exactly torn it up, so this may be a good option for them.
So it seems as though while we may have some good bargaining chips, other teams may have better and as much reason as us to pull the trigger on Hinrich.
"I saw him in the face" Sergio's quote on the latest alley-oop to Rudy.
by blazermaniac32 on Jun 5, 2009 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love to take Tyreke Evans at 10(TWolves pick)
And get our PG situation settled once & for all.
Offseason:
PG Options:(T)Mike Conley Jr/(FA)Jason Kidd - (D)Rodrigue Beaubois/Toney Douglas
SG Options: (DDT)Terrence Williams
SF Options:(FA)Ron Artest/(T)Tayshaun Prince
PF Options:(DDT)DaJuan Blair/(T)Reggie Evans/(T)Carl Landry - (D)Taj Gibson, (D)Damion James, (D)Kevin Seraphin
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 5, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is what I meant
Thanks though.
KP needs to get the ideal PG for McMillan.
Offseason:
PG Options:(T)Mike Conley Jr/(FA)Jason Kidd - (D)Rodrigue Beaubois/Toney Douglas
SG Options: (DDT)Terrence Williams
SF Options:(FA)Ron Artest/(T)Tayshaun Prince
PF Options:(DDT)DaJuan Blair/(T)Reggie Evans/(T)Carl Landry - (D)Taj Gibson, (D)Damion James, (D)Kevin Seraphin
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 5, 2009 7:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Evans has the size
but not the game/attitude that Nate prefers
“extremely turnover prone and tends to freeze out his teammates. Struggles badly with his jump-shot…appears a little bit selfish at times”
http://hoopshype.com/draft.htm
The problem is that he’s an incredibly ball-dominant point guard, often looking like a fish out of water when he’s forced to give up the rock for more than a few seconds. Memphis’ offense often looks quite stagnant, with Evans over-dribbling the ball at the top of the key as his four teammates stand around and twiddle their thumbs. He can be pretty sloppy with the ball at times, displaying questionable decision-making skills and incredibly poor shot-selection, which wouldn’t be as much of an issue if he was able to make shots at a respectable rate from the perimeter.
With his poor shooting mechanics (he fades away unnecessarily on every attempt) Evans is very streaky with his feet set in catch and shoot situations, and downright dreadful shooting the ball off the dribble. He only converts a dismal 25% of his jump-shots according to Synergy Sports Technology, but the problem is that he settles for them on a regular basis—they make up about 40% of his possessions, often with a hand in his face and early in the shot clock no less. While his skill-set may develop in time, Evans’ mentality looks extremely questionable—it’s hard not to come away with the impression that he’s a pretty selfish player. He’s likely going to have to revamp his shooting stroke entirely if he’s to ever become even a decent threat from the NBA 3-point line, something he’s been unwilling to do up until this point.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Tyreke-Evans-1110/
Wrong guy to play alongside Brandon Roy
by two4larue on Jun 6, 2009 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL! Yeah, I guess I went a little overboard yesterday
It’s just that the option of Portland doing something before the end of June is unique because of the status of Blake and Outlaw, and it hasn’t been getting seemingly any run in the media……
by Storyteller on Jun 5, 2009 7:02 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
if darius is still being paid, and isn't assigned to a team, and back on our cap....
can we trade his worthless butt?
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
by faith on Jun 5, 2009 7:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I was wondering do we have the 2010 DMEC? Darius Mile Expiring Contract. If he takes up our cap space we should be able to trade him?
by boppitywop on Jun 5, 2009 7:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't see why Hinrich is such a huge
upgrade over Blake??
Help me understand!
by 6manoffense on Jun 5, 2009 7:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He is Blake +
His defense would change our team.
The ink of a scholar is worth a thousand times more than the blood of a martyr.
by The Pirate on Jun 5, 2009 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here goes
Ball Handling = Kirk slightly better than Blake
Driving+Finishing = Kirk slightly better than Blake (He still doesn’t utilize this enough)
3 pt shooting = Tossup
Defense = Kirk a lot better than Blake
Basically, Kirk is either a rival to Blake, or better than Blake, at everything. He costs a little more but this year we can afford that. His salary will also drop each of the next couple years. Not a ton, but it will drop.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Driving+Finishing = Kirk slightly better than Blake
Hinrich gets to the FT line more than Blake
(3 times as much, if I remember tthe stat correctly)
by two4larue on Jun 5, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and Blake's salary will probably go up with his next LTC
here’s a point that isn’t brought up often
Kirk’s contract descends from 10 to 8 mil/year in the next 3 years
Over the same time period, Steve’s contract “could” rise from 4-5-6 (etc) depending on the deal he is able to sign
So, by the time 2011 rolls around, the difference in pay between the two PGs “may” only be a couple of million.
(Hinrich’s younger, too)
by two4larue on Jun 5, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent point
The “twice the money” talking point ignores the longer term.
by pualo on Jun 5, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of the Hinrich love has to do with how much one values defense
Some people think his defense is worth the much larger contract; others think it’s a somewhat of a lateral move, with his defensive skills not worth the extra price.
by Corvid on Jun 5, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is very smart
I think we do much better defender PG’s next year with Hinrich at the 1, then if we “stand pat” with Blake.
Offseason:
PG Options:(T)Mike Conley Jr/(FA)Jason Kidd - (D)Rodrigue Beaubois/Toney Douglas
SG Options: (DDT)Terrence Williams
SF Options:(FA)Ron Artest/(T)Tayshaun Prince
PF Options:(DDT)DaJuan Blair/(T)Reggie Evans/(T)Carl Landry - (D)Taj Gibson, (D)Damion James, (D)Kevin Seraphin
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 5, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Technical question:
Why are “jumps” put into post? To me, they are annoying. What do they buy you? Is it just to show off one’s technical prowess or to be doing the cool, popular thing? Just wondering.
Going off topic now ( Blazer basketball), I observe how everyone is trying to guess the cap space we are going to have and of course are having to make certain assumptions to arrive at a figure. But KP said in the Baldface Truth interview with Canzano that he expected our cap space to be between 7 and 7 1/2 million dollars I believe. So why aren’t we just going with that figure instead of trying to deduce one of our own? And isn’t that statement a clue as to what some of our moves will be?
Also, there continues to be a little bit of discussion on the possibility of trading Aldridge. KP said in the same interview that, sure everyone other than maybe somebody like Kobe or Lebron is conceivably trad able, but that “LaMarcus isn’t going anywhere”. Seems to me then that scenarios featuring LaMarcus as a trade piece are a waste of time.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
by TwoDeep on Jun 5, 2009 8:27 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Front page real estate
I think perhaps he does it to avoid clogging up the whole front page with one post, pushing other stuff down and off.
by baduk on Jun 5, 2009 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correct. Sometimes there is a front page article on BE that takes up 3 or 4 screens, which kills the readership and discussion of everything underneath it...
On SS&R, The Boss (Josh) doesn’t like to post new articles for several hours after the last has appeared — he carefully scheduled. And even then, everything jumps so that the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th articles aren’t obliterated.
BE could have more stuff up front if the decision was made to use MORE jumps. But it’s a personal blog and the point of the exercise seems to be to generate 250 smart comments about a 4,000 word article, a conscious editorial decision, so there ya go.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 5, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
..."he HAS EVERYTHING carefully scheduled..."
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 5, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I second these questions
KP said in the Baldface Truth interview with Canzano that he expected our cap space to be between 7 and 7 1/2 million dollars I believe. So why aren’t we just going with that figure instead of trying to deduce one of our own? And isn’t that statement a clue as to what some of our moves will be
What is producing the discrepancy between KP’s $7 million & Dave’s $5.8 million?
by PoliSam on Jun 5, 2009 8:33 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
They use the same assumptions, but the cap could go up a bit and Dave assumes the number from last year.
I think KP said $6 to 7 million. That is only doable if they don’t make an offer to Frye if – as he is quoted above – intends to keep Travis and Blake.
by Norsktroll on Jun 5, 2009 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like Dave assumes a drop of $1.38 million
KP looks to be using something closer to the 2008-09 cap number of $58.68 million as a guestimate.
The problem is that nobody knows exactly what it will be until the bean counters finish their work in July. Personally, after running some numbers last night, I think it will drop just a bit – maybe $0.5 million. So, I’m guestimating not quite $1.0 million more cap room than Dave presents here.
But it’s all guesswork for another month….
by Storyteller on Jun 5, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right Norsktroll.
Lord knows I can’t trust my memory so I went back and listened again to the interview. KP said we’ll have 6 1/2, 7 million in cap space with maybe a chance to do a couple of things to get it up there a little higher.
My bad..
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
by TwoDeep on Jun 5, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bet they dump the rights to the two international players
by blazingjim on Jun 5, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they are going to try to bring Freeland over
KP’s comments at the end of the season certainly implied that they were interested.
by upper left corner on Jun 5, 2009 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Renounce Petko and bring over Freeland -- that's my bet.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 5, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2nd that
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or maybe include him in the trade instead of renouncing.
He doesn’t actually cost anything to keep except for cap purposes, and it’s still possible that he’ll have value someday, so our trading partner might want him as a throw-in.
by pualo on Jun 5, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Praise KP!
The Honka Playboys aspirations are no longer jeopardized!
by TheMadKiwi on Jun 5, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
they have a deal to sell the #24?
tthat adds about 900k to our space
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
by douglast on Jun 5, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a possibility
It would also be incredibly ironic after they’ve bought draft picks left and right over the last few years (Rodriguez, Freeland, Fernandez, Batum) to have them be selling their own this year.
by Storyteller on Jun 5, 2009 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another question-Consideration
If the Blazers do 1-5, who plays back-up PF? The 24th pick? Someone produced by trading Sergio? Freeland? Will the Blazers also be able to use the MLE?
by PoliSam on Jun 5, 2009 8:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Either with a draft or pick up some journeyman
Here’s why this doesn’t matter much
1. LMA will play 38 a game in closer games, so 10 minutes doesn’t matter a ton
2. If Oden stays healthy and is better at his foul issues, Nate might try Gregzilla in the regular season more often. Even if it’s for 2-4 minutes a game, that’s another 2-4 minutes that a backup PF means nothing
3. It’s possible we run a small unit in stints vs a lot of teams using a combo of Batum/Webster or something along those lines. This doesn’t work against teams with a good offensive banger PF, but it works against some teams.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the other hand
If Oden, Pryzbilla, or Aldridge are injured, the Blazers will be in huge trouble. What is the chance that one of the three misses a significant amount of games? I’d say it’s pretty high. Not adding a solid back-up power forward would be extremely risky.
by PoliSam on Jun 5, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In addition, not having a decent back-up at PF
Severely hinders a team’s versatility. The Blazers could not go “small” against Houston because they did not have anyone besides Aldridge to defend PFs. Frye was such a liability and Outlaw is not big enough or strong enough to defend players like Carl Landry, let alone, Luis Scola.
by PoliSam on Jun 5, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ehh
If Outlaw is not big enough to guard Scola, doesn’t that mean that going small wouldn’t work against Houston period?
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
??
There are different ways to go small. One way is to play a PF at Center—i.e. to play Aldridge at center. Dallas “went small” against Houston by fronting Yao with Dirk and playing Bass at PF and was pretty successful with that line-up. Another way is to play a SF at PF… etc. Not having another PF limits the versatility of a roster in making those types of adjustments.
by PoliSam on Jun 5, 2009 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll do what we did this year
And use more of Frye and hope that everyone else can cover us! (Replace Frye with whoever we replace him with.)
No offensve to Frye, but I really can’t see us getting someone who is worse than he is. Absolute worst case scenario, we keep him for another year.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The idea is to try to improve the team
by PoliSam on Jun 5, 2009 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
But improving at every position isn’t really possible. The backup PF spot is pretty far down on my list of things that Portland cares about for the time being IMO.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say that spot is really important.
Until Outlaw was put into the backup PF role, the Blazers were killed whenever Aldridge left the game. That’s why Aldridge generated such ridiculous +/- numbers at the beginning of the season. After Outlaw was put in his old role, the Blazers could handle giving Aldridge a breather.
If Outlaw is gone, I think the Blazers need a replacement they could count on.
by poster on Jun 5, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
10 minutes
Even less if Greg gets more mobile and Nate decides that Gregzilla works for 4-5 minute stints in a game. Finding a cheap free agent or a rookie gamble won’t kill us in this situation.
That is the one reason Outlaw will be missed. He can play the 4 a lot better than Batum/Webster can.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Webster at the four?
You’re out of your mind! :)
by TheMadKiwi on Jun 5, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha that'd be fun!
I’ll edit it.
“can play the 4 a lot better than Batum/Webster can.”
=
“can play the 4.”
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
backup PF spot is pretty far down on my list of things that Portland cares about for the time being
KP said the #1 goal is to improve the toughness and physicality this offseason
If they don’t add a veteran PF “banger”, where else is that improvement going to come from?
by two4larue on Jun 5, 2009 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Improve the guys they got?
Bayless/Oden/LMA can all definitely become tougher and more physical players.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How?
Send them to “fight club”?
Someone with an “attitude” needs to show them the tricks of the trade
And Maurice Lucas is battling health issues
I prefer a veteran who can still bang during the games, “schooling” the kids during training camp and practices. Przybilla is OK, but you can’t expect Joel to do all of the “enforcing”
by two4larue on Jun 5, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's been many advocating a veteran...
like McDyess, but what about Drew Gooden? I think he would be affordable. Would have interest in playing on a winning team, even if it meant a slightly reduced role. He may not find many great offers in free agency this summer. I think he ought to be on the radar.
by 52therim on Jun 5, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mark my words
Sessions and Hinrich are not considered major upgrades by the front office. I mean, are they major upgrades, to which the Blazers would be justified in making an expensive multi-year commitment? No, they are not.
The goal for the Blazers in 2009-2010 should be to win 62-65 games in the regular season and get home court advantage throughout the playoffs, and then to protect that home court fiercely, and, realistically, push to the second round or conference finals. If they can win it all, great, fantastic, but since they didn’t manage to win a single series this year, their first back in the playoffs in nearly a decade, it’s a stretch to imagine it.
My point is that the championship window is just starting to open for this team. There’s no need to swing for the fences now, and KP will surely value flexibility over making a long term commitment to second or third tier position player considering where the team is in its run. Blake very well could have a better season than Hinrich next year. This is not to talk up Blake or denigrate Hinrich, but to point out their skill set is similar and the latter is not a big upgrade. Similarly, the Blazers had Sessions at workouts in Portland before the ‘07 draft and took a good long look at him. He was still on the boards when they drafted in the second round and they took McBob instead. They saw something in his game they thought would make him an undesirable match for this team (perhaps his jumper, or lack thereof?), and I doubt they’ve changed their mind.
No one knows what the front office will work out this off-season, but my take is, it won’t be either of those guys. If KP is going to lock up a player for several years for more than a few million a season, he’s going to need to be sure they are the right fit. This may not be the year that happens.
by baduk on Jun 5, 2009 9:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If the Blazers win 62-65 games, won't that
“prove” they are good enough to win a couple of playoff series? Regular season success doesn’t always translate into the post-season, but winning more than 62 games is a big deal and would mean that the team is firing on all cylinders.
by torsoheap on Jun 5, 2009 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really, no
Ask the 2007-2008 Dallas Mavericks about what the regular season “proves.”
This team doesn’t know how to win in the post-season yet. They may develop that expertise quickly – we certainly hope they do. But it’s not a certainty.
by baduk on Jun 5, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This team doesn’t know how to win in the post-season yet.
If I recall correctly we won 2 games and were a couple of points away from going back home for a game 7.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
More veterans are needed
Not 5 more draft choices
and if you think Travis Outlaw will ever become a playoff-hardened, mentally-tough contributer to a championship contender?
Then all I can say is “wow”
by two4larue on Jun 5, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Progress in the NBA is rarely linear.
The 06-07 Bulls are declared to be the next great thing and then proceed to drop off the face of the Earth.
The 06-07 Mavericks have the best record in the NBA after coming off a finals run the previous year. They lose in the first round.
The 07-08 Golden State Warriors quietly slip back into the lottery after teasing everyone with promises of greatness.
The 08-09 Hornets are almost universally hailed as the best young team in the NBA and then immediately revert back into mediocrity.
The 09-10 Blazers are declared by many to be the best young team in the NBA……..
I’ve seen this story before.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 5, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the Blazers progress will be linear.
It seems to me the Blazers have a far more stable and balanced team than the teams you mention, both player personnel and coaching. Only time will tell.
Another team for your list: Atlanta Hawks. Yeah, they made it to the 2nd round but it seems like they should be much better than what they showed in the regular season and in that 2nd round series against the Cavs.
by RABID_RABBIT on Jun 5, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right about this
But I’m not making predictions (here, at least), I merely writing that the goal should be to win 62-65 games. Is that attainable? There are many factors, not the least of which is injuries. An injury to any key player can cost the team 5-10 games over the course of a season, in the case of Brandon, it could turn the Blazers from a contender into a borderline lottery team.
As I look over your list though, a factor to consider is personnel stability. We do not expect the Blazers core to look different next year, the coaching staff is stable, we aren’t losing major pieces, even role players, to free agency.
by baduk on Jun 5, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The passed him in the draft because even KP & Co. are not all-knowing
They wouldn’t have drafted 2 busts before Marc Gasol and 4 busts before Sessions if they knew better. Nobody really knew about Sessions, not even the Bucks who initially sent him to the d-league. He just developed much better than anticipated.
The argument “he can’t be good since the Blazers passed on him” doesn’t fly.
by Norsktroll on Jun 5, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No comprende?
KP isn’t an allknowing future seeing oracle?
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lets just say the first round track record is better than the second round track record
Small mistakes and some amazing saves, but even KP doesn’t bat perfectly :)
by Norsktroll on Jun 5, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Second round is such a crapshoot anyway
Obviously NOBODY knows when a second round guy is going to be good or one of the 30 teams would have grabbed him in round 1.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there's a difference here
It’s one thing to say they missed a player because he wasn’t really seriously considered.
I don’t think they seriously considered Marc Gasol because they had Pryzbilla in hand and the ability to draft Oden. They might have thought that even if Gasol was good, they’d be unable to play him enough to even to showcase him for a trade.
They took a long, careful look at Sessions. I believe they had him in twice. They seriously considered him for the Blazers, but decided he wasn’t the guy. To the tune of “we’ll take McBob instead” wasn’t the guy.
Sure, everyone can make a mistake. But I don’t think the front office considers themselves to have made a mistake with Sessions.
by baduk on Jun 5, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The "Window" is not just about the Blazers
My point is that the championship window is just starting to open for this team. There’s no need to swing for the fences now, and KP will surely value flexibility over making a long term commitment to second or third tier position player considering where the team is in its run.
When I look at some other young teams that could be really good (OKC, NO, etc) I soon realize that our shot to establish dominance is sooner than I had thought. I don’t know that we need WIN the championship in 2010, but we need to become a serious contender now and stay in contention.
I'm going to come up with the best line here ever, something really clever.
by musicdaniel on Jun 5, 2009 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not convinced about either of those teams
Unless Durant learns how to do something on defense, that team is not a title threat ever. They could also use a passable big man.
NO needs more than West/Paul with Chandler as support and it doesn’t look like management will get that for them.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we need to start contending seriously
right away because of the wear and tear on Brandon Roy every season. I hope they make a serious run at a championship next year.
it could happen, – Elgin
VENTURA: It's drowning. It gives you the complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you -- I'll put it to you this way, you give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.
by 22baylor on Jun 5, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Add veterans now, not rookies
Bobby Gross said it best during the “Mania” video. He got to the finals in his 2nd year and always thought he’d be going back
5 year plans are for losers, unless you actually choose to “go for it” in year 5
by two4larue on Jun 5, 2009 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dave didn't you get the memo
Trading Blake for Hinrich is Stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 9:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hinrich makes no sense
Why would we want to give up our financial flexability, especially given our current economic situation, to acquire a player in Hinrich that is marginally better than Blake at more than double the salary? All of the posts above defending Hinrich state that he is a better defender, ceteris peribas. Is his D really worth an extra $6 mil on the books? Also, is Kirk freaking Hinrich really the answer at PG? Come on, when you Hinrich-backers think of championship PG’s, is he what you imagine? I don’t.
If the trade deadline in Feb was any indication, players are available if we can pay them…
I think KP is shooting much higher than for acquiring guys in the Hinrich mold.
by hedawg on Jun 5, 2009 9:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
There is no such thing as a championship PG
Or Center or SF or SG or PF.
You take a couple of Stars at whichever positions and you try and add great role players to go with them. Blake = good role player. Hinrich = great role player.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You just said it best...
Hinrich = great ROLE player. And @ $10 mil next season, would be our highest paid player (as a role player mind you) at a marginal upgrade over Blake @ $4 mil. Let’s take that money and acquire a star instead of another role player, who in 2 years we would want to trade for a star anyway…
The Blazers are another STAR away from championship contention, not another ROLE player away.
by hedawg on Jun 5, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If KP can get Parker/Williams/Rondo/Harris/... on the cheap, forget that Hinrich ever was mentioned
He just is a viable upgrade that his team seems to shop, and we could have the expendable pieces to get him.
by Norsktroll on Jun 5, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understandable, I'm just trying to give these Hinrich-lovers some perspective...
I just feel that even if Hinrich is available, KP should pass. Sometimes it comes back to the old adage, that some of the most successful deals ever done are the ones that weren’t done in the first place.
by hedawg on Jun 5, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then they're not deals
Maybe perspective is something you need as well. Hinrich’s D blows Blake’s away. It’s a HUGE difference. They’re about the same otherwise. Still, if you look back to the season, our D wasn’t all that awesome out there on the perimeter. Blake’s not the only one to blame, but we could certainly shore things up out there.
I never saw Derek Fisher as a championship PG either.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
by hobobob on Jun 5, 2009 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Upgrade over 08/09 Blake
but maybe not as much an upgrade over the 09/10 Blake.
thinking with MW back, a slightly better GO, Nic a bit more from the offense (as in handling the ball some), and the rest of the team playing better D together , maybe the role playing (rather than star) PG is less of an issue (enough that the contract difference becomes the primary difference).
by DucRider on Jun 5, 2009 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point
although having someone who can stay in front the PG makes everything else a lot easier. When PGs penetrate, even if we have really great defenders at all other 4 positions, we’re playing catch-up from that point on.
I'm going to come up with the best line here ever, something really clever.
by musicdaniel on Jun 5, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
I think we have the Star we need in Roy, and one of either LMA/Oden can become the second star. I think we need great role players now.
Kirk does not cost 10 million. IIRC he’s 9.5, 9, and 8. When Blake get a new contract he’d probably get 5-6. The difference between the two doesn’t become that big in a year or two. And Kirk would only be our highest paid player until Roy/LMA/Oden got their real deals. That’s how rookie contracts work. (Joel makes more than all of those guys now.)
Hinrich is a slightly overpaid player, this much is fairly obvious. But I think for 3 years we have enough room to pay him this money. After that if he wanted to stay with us he’d have to take an exception, but at that point in his career he’d probably have to do that with anyone.
by Zaig on Jun 5, 2009 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. Good short term AND long term.
We don’t have to pay 9 mil for Darius next summer, this move would NOT limit our “flexibility”
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a marginal upgrade. I think that's the very significant point your missing
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
by hobobob on Jun 5, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, don't agree
Portland already has a bonafide star in Roy, a star on the cusp in Aldridge and are banking on Oden’s gifts propelling him to stardom. Mortgaging the house to add another guy commanding a massive salary seems crazy to me without moving LMA or Oden.
by TheMadKiwi on Jun 5, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dear Dave
As I find this post very educational, it might have helped if you were even more clear on the fact that Hinrich was just an example of a possible situation not what you might acctually desire for our team (at least that is what I am assuming you meant) so maybee this post would not have turned into a Hinrich love/hate fest.
On a differant Note after reading this it seems more likely then not that we will use our Mid level exception to have the 9 mil in that case does that mean we could sign a FA for 9 mil? or do an unballanced trade hypatheticly Blake (4 mil) for a 13 million dollar player?
Draft Cole Aldrich 2010
by jlarose78 on Jun 5, 2009 10:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Storyteller chime in anytime
Draft Cole Aldrich 2010
by jlarose78 on Jun 5, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two things
First, I didn’t get the sense that simply because Hinrich was the first of seven point guards mentioned by Dave that he is Dave’s personal choice for the job, with the other six trailing behind. People have been debating Hinrich vs. no Hinrich for months, so this thread just provided another opportunity for the argument to rage on.
Secondly, it is impossible to have exceptions if you are under the cap. So, if the Blazers go under the cap, they have no MLE, no BAE, no trade exceptions, etc. Therefore, the MLE cannot be ‘combined’ with cap space to sign a FA or make a trade.
Just remember the basic rule of Capology 101: A team is free to make any personnel moves it wants as long as their team salary is not more than $100,000 higher than the salary cap once the move is completed. If the team salary figure is more than $100,000 higher than the salary cap once the move is completed, the move is not allowed.
So how can teams already above the cap make any moves? They use exceptions to that basic rule. But if you’re not breaking the basic rule (ie, you’re under the cap), then you cannot use exceptions.
by Storyteller on Jun 5, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it just sounds like
he might be the most available in the Blazes situation.
by Odenrising on Jun 5, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you are under the cap in July
then make a deal (or sign a FA) that puts you over the cap, when is the next “time” you can use a MLE? The next offseason?
by two4larue on Jun 5, 2009 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, the next summer
The MLE is credited to each team on July 1st. Once lost, you won’t be able to use it again in that salary cap season, which ends on June 30th.
by Storyteller on Jun 5, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we are all
going to be blind sided by whatever move KP makes this summer or at draft time. Personally listening to him with Canzano the other day I think whatever move he makes may already be a done deal. I hope its a bigger move then Hinrich.
I try to help with everything," Fernandez said. "If the coach says go rebound, I go rebound. I work for the team.
""If I'm playing this game to get media and attention, I shouldn't be here," Aldridge said. "I'm here to play basketball, and do what I can do to help this team win."
His stare became blank. It was apparent he was back in that place, on the Rose Garden's logo, picking up Aaron Brooks as the crowd nervously roared.
by Dragonage on Jun 5, 2009 10:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That interview rather sounded like "expect no major move, young players are developing", which is something I wouldn't really like
Not because I don’t think Greg & Co. won’t become significantly better, just because the opportunity to act is now before extensions to Roy and LMA and whoever else kick in and that is the time to put a distance between us and other up and coming teams – and be ready to overcome teams built around LeBron, Howard, Kobe, etc.
by Norsktroll on Jun 5, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree - I heard that interview
and what I came away with was the idea that while he expects the team to improve next year, it is still in some respects a developmental year specifically for Oden and Bayless.
The more I read and hear, the more convinced I am that KP is sold on Bayless and the kid is going to get every chance. That’s why I think that if a deal for PG is made, it’s more likely to be an aging mentor type than a guy with many years of prime tim eleft.
by raoulduke on Jun 5, 2009 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree completely, Norsk
I’d also add that waiting one more year to see what we have, while not a terrible strategy by any means, does put us in the position of competing with all the other teams that have maneuvered to have cap space next year for the LBJ, Wade, Bosh FA bonanza. While the free agent class next year looks to be significantly better, there will also be much more competition for those players. In contrast, the number of teams with significant cap space this year is relatively small. Additionally, the push by teams to free cap space for next offseason (and to save $ in this bad economy) also presents KP & Co. with those salary dump/lopsided trades discussed previously. As others have said, we’re in a position to buy when most other teams are looking to sell. That’s a position to take advantage of if at all possible.
by MDBlazerfan on Jun 5, 2009 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want Rondo
Even though he will be too expensive for us to afford. Man put him with Roy and we have the best backcourt in the nba.
"B-Roy is the best shooting guard I have played against"
-Ron Artest
If Artest can say it, so can I. Broy>Kobe.
by premthegrem on Jun 5, 2009 10:56 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I dont like that at all
Blake and Outlaw for Hinrick? that sounds like someone is smoking crack! at least its not KP, thank god.
the only way that i would go along with any of that nonsense, is to sign Millsap after Outlaw is gone. and that wouldnt happen because we would be tying too much extra cap into Hinrick.
that is just terrible.
we dont need a PG this year, we have Blake and Bayless. we need to see what Bayless can do and Blake is Nate’s 2nd or 3rd favorite player…ZERO chance he gets traded. especially for a guy that is about a 60-40 improvement at BEST!
we need a backup PF that is our need. also Dave, if you trade Outlaw and Blake for Hinrick who is our backup PF? considering your earlier claim that LaF, Ruff, Shav, and Channing are all gone…this doesnt make sense. why would we be trading out for a guy or guys that are marginally better than what we have? you either make a move that really changes things or you dont.
this is a trade to simply make a trade.
NO WAY!
by SuperFan #7 on Jun 5, 2009 10:57 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
HAHA
Made me wonder how many bloggers ARE ACTUALLY ON DRUGS right now :)
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not gunna lie, you have some good points
And Blake’s wife is cute
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
by Kelsoballa on Jun 5, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, why would anyone be against Hinrich anyway?
Our GREATEST weakness by far was our perimeter defense. Memories of PG’s blasting into the lane at will this season are fresh in my mind. If we didn’t have such an excellent group of bigs in LMA, Joel, and GO we would have lost a lot more games.
I have to believe that improving our on ball D at the 1 will dramatically change our defensive capabilities. It is much easier for help defense to rotate and the defense does not have to make so many secondary rotations if someone isn’t able to dribble penetrate at will.
Then there is the added benefit that a player like Hinrich will give Bayless time to learn the NBA game and develope that outside shot he desperately needs. I love Blake’s grit and fire but the skills to get to the next level just might not be there.
by Odenrising on Jun 5, 2009 11:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Our biggest weakness was pick and roll defense
and individual players getting beat off the dribble by the Parkers of the NBA. Hinrich is conceivably no less susceptible to Tony Parker than is Blake. The remaining issues with our defense were due to scheme and team execution.
by blacknoiseNW on Jun 5, 2009 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK here's my question
I don’t have time to read through 100 entries to see if this have been covered already
Let’s say that KP does the Blake-Outlaw for Hinrich deal and Chicago renounces Blake and Outlaw before July. Does Portland have enough scratch remaining to resign Steve, Travis (or both) as FAs?
Could they use the MLE for Blake once they’re over the cap, etc
by two4larue on Jun 5, 2009 11:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, although I'd offer Steve Blake the BAE rather than the MLE.
That, of course, is assuming the Portland Trail Blazers stay over the salary cap, for otherwise they’ll have to sign Blake with cap space rather than an exception.
by AK1984 on Jun 5, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So once they acquire Hinrich in that scenario
it would leave them with “around $3.9 million yet to play with” according to Dave, above
So they could either use that money for a FA PF, or Blake, or Outlaw
Once they use up that 3.9, they’re over the cap and have the MLE to use on Blake, Outlaw, etc
That’s how I see it, tell me if I’m off base, here
by two4larue on Jun 5, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Storyteller can confirm this
But it is my understanding that once you go below the cap, any and all exceptions are gone. So if you are $5 million under and sign a player for $5million, that is all you can do except for the minimum salary players. You would not be able to go out and use the MLE or BAE or any trade exceptions on more players that summer.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
by usmcr3049 on Jun 5, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does being under the cap mean you can't create exceptions
or does it also mean you can’t use previously acquired exceptions?
by blacknoiseNW on Jun 5, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's both
Since you are not breaking the basic rule of the salary cap (ie, you must stay under the cap), you cannot use exceptions to the basic rule when you operate under the cap. Also, you cannot regain exceptions that you lost when you went under the cap.
The MLE and BAE are given to teams on July 1st. If you go under the cap and lose them, you don’t get new ones until the next July 1st.
But if you lose exceptions and then go back over the cap, you can start collecting new ones (such as trade exceptions) or use the minimum player exception to sign players.
by Storyteller on Jun 5, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there should be a fan post about this topic
but it’s probably premature to get into this, until Blake/Outlaw are actually dealt and renounced by their new team(s)
by two4larue on Jun 5, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They'd technically be waived by their new team, but your point remains the same here.
An example of renouncing will be what the Portland Trail Blazers do with Channing Frye’s Bird rights after he’s not tendered a one-year, $4,264,761 qualifying offer by 6/30/2009.
The Portland Trail Blazers may also renounce Raef LaFrentz’s Bird rights — for otherwise the team would have a $19,083,750 (i.e., 150% of his salary this past season) cap hold on him heading into free agency after the July moratorium — however, I’m of the mindset that hanging onto LaFrentz’s Bird rights for potential sign-and-trade purposes ahd, moreover, being awarded the mid-level exception, bi-annual exception, and whatever reamains of the $2,912,823 trade exception is more prudent than having a modicum of cap space.
by AK1984 on Jun 5, 2009 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt there's any chance
Blake would accept a second roster shifting effort involving himself and the Blazers that sees him net the BAE which he’s certain to be offered more than as a free agent.
I wouldn’t blame him. That would be a pretty big insult and it won’t look great to fans either. The Freddy Jones situation was bad enough really.
by TheMadKiwi on Jun 5, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the open market, Steve Blake should command roughly a two-year, $4,139,200 contract ...
(i.e., 2009-2010: $1,990,000 & 2010-2011: $2,149,200). Blake may find such a contract offer to be somewhat of an insult; yet, after being waived by the team that acquired him via trade, he wouldn’t be in too solid of a position to demand a huge salary.
by AK1984 on Jun 5, 2009 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have not seen Hinrich play enough to really make a call about his play. Portland at some point is going to need a penetrater at the point that can dish it too a big or out to the perimeter. Portlands offense is really based on passing the ball from beyond the 3 point line into the paint, That may be why it uses so much clock to get into our sets. Im hoping more for a Conley deal then Hinrich.
I try to help with everything," Fernandez said. "If the coach says go rebound, I go rebound. I work for the team.
""If I'm playing this game to get media and attention, I shouldn't be here," Aldridge said. "I'm here to play basketball, and do what I can do to help this team win."
His stare became blank. It was apparent he was back in that place, on the Rose Garden's logo, picking up Aaron Brooks as the crowd nervously roared.
by Dragonage on Jun 5, 2009 11:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A few posters have taken exception to my objections to Hinrich
and I have also have issues with those that favor Conley over our current crop of PG’s. Call me stubborn, but I just don’t see where a Conley or a Hinrich is worth the expense to acquire. Not only is there the issue of net benefit in production, there is the issue of trade chips being expended.
If we are going to make a big change at PG, it has either cost us nothing in terms of value, or it needs to be a significant upgrade in production. Nothing else makes sense, and the Conley’s and Hinrich’s are simply too marginal.
by blacknoiseNW on Jun 5, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody seems to have mentioned that...
Hinrich apparently had a terrible 2007-8 season. (Source:Hollinger.)
Then he had a major injury this past year.(08-09)
The stats seem to indicate that his offense was about back to where it had been.
But it’s a question whether his defense was back to previous standards. This would have a bearing on the discussion.
by soci on Jun 5, 2009 12:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
his defense was excellent in the Boston-Chicago series.
proud hinrichsheeple
by Cablinasian on Jun 5, 2009 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lessons to be learned from other promising teams?
Chicago was all set to dominate and then let Chandler go and signed an over the hill Wallace to a cap-consuming contract. (Was this in part due to pressuere from Skiles?)
New Orleans looked promising. Then it went for Posey instead of youth.
What did Dallas do or not do?
There has to be a lot to learn from these other experiences.
by soci on Jun 5, 2009 12:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
New Orleans was never really young though.
Outside of Chris Paul, that was largely a veteran team. David West was already in his prime and Tyson Chandler would have been a little before his prime had injuries not been an issue.
Sadly, this was one case where Hollinger was dead on. Chris Paul improved, but the team got worse.
I would say that Chicago was a good example though. I don’t think anyone predicted their collapse. The entire group of youngsters just got worse in the same season (obviously not all of them, but enough).
by poster on Jun 5, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bob Whitsett
was not a chemistry major. We are going to find out if KP is a chemist.
I try to help with everything," Fernandez said. "If the coach says go rebound, I go rebound. I work for the team.
""If I'm playing this game to get media and attention, I shouldn't be here," Aldridge said. "I'm here to play basketball, and do what I can do to help this team win."
His stare became blank. It was apparent he was back in that place, on the Rose Garden's logo, picking up Aaron Brooks as the crowd nervously roared.
by Dragonage on Jun 5, 2009 12:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Does KP want Hinrich???
It sure seems like if he coveted Hinrich he would have gone and grabbed him before now. There were all the rumors last summer. He seemed to be available for a bargain basement price after the injury to his thumb last season. I think he would be an upgrade and am not opposed to getting him. Maybe Chicago’s asking price has changed dramatically, but KP seems to target players and then go get them. Maybe that is just the draft, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the Hinrich is never seen in a Blazer uni.
by 52therim on Jun 5, 2009 1:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Kurt and Deng?
Dear Dave-
Im not worthy! Thanks for everything you do , I love it. That being said, is kurt H. and Luol Deng really our best options? They are both backups on a shabby eastern team. They dont seem like they would be much better than what we already have. Im not sure what is the right direction, but I was hoping for some more veteran exp and immediate impact type of players. And again, who is this Ramon Sessions guy, and why is there a buzz about him? All I see is another backup player who is still needing alot of exp to become better. We already have 1 of those in Bayless. I take Bayless over Sessions anyday. Anyways, if these guys are the best we can get, in my opinion, we are along ways from championship contention.
Anyways, thanks again for all the interesting stuff yall dig up. I need my Blazer fix everyday and I can always count on your squad to get the job done!
by cavejunctionblazer on Jun 5, 2009 1:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Rec'd this Post
I realize it is completely unnecessary to rec something Dave posts to the main page, but this is an amazing and comprehensive post. So it has been rec’d.
by grigs on Jun 5, 2009 2:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
moving up in the draft
Am I correct in reading that if we wanted to mvoe up in the draft, say to get Curry, we would almost certainly have to take on a nasty contract?
Is there no decent options for trading into a higher pick and not aquiring an ugly contract?
by ItsMrHarris2u on Jun 5, 2009 2:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand why Hinrich is so preferable over Blake?
pts apg rbg 3pt%
Blake = 11.0 5.0 1.0 .427
Hinrich = 9.9 3.9 2.4 .408
Are you saying keep Blake as a backup to Hinrich? Aren’t they too similar?
by Sheedwasright on Jun 5, 2009 3:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Back up power forward
everybodys keep talking about a point guard.What about a good back up power forward and how much would it cost for someone like McDyess imo he would be perfect. He can also play center if Oden and Przybilla get in foul trouble and he’s a vet. He can show Lm.A. and Oden and others how to box out and where to be for rebounds. Imo that is one of the Blazers biggest needs.
by billyjoejack on Jun 5, 2009 4:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Maybe not McDyess but a solid veteran presance that can bang. Someone somewhere brought up Drew Gooden I really like that idea.
I try to help with everything," Fernandez said. "If the coach says go rebound, I go rebound. I work for the team.
""If I'm playing this game to get media and attention, I shouldn't be here," Aldridge said. "I'm here to play basketball, and do what I can do to help this team win."
His stare became blank. It was apparent he was back in that place, on the Rose Garden's logo, picking up Aaron Brooks as the crowd nervously roared.
by Dragonage on Jun 5, 2009 4:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Drew Gooden
played well after being waived by Sacramento. I think he would be a good fit for Portland because he can rebound, play some D and hit some outside shots. He has started in the past and could in a pinch if necessary.
by torsoheap on Jun 6, 2009 6:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Until we know the full playing status of Martell
Maybe we should not assume that we have him to play every game and should look at other small forwards. His foot injury is the type that is going one of two ways. Either it will heal great and be fine, or will be a problem the rest of his career and he will never be able to play to his full potential, or heavy minutes.
I love Hinrich’s game and think he would be a valuable addition to this team. However, without Martell, we need a better SF that can rebound. I still feel Gerald Wallace would be a huge addition for us, and is one of those “character” guys we always talk about.
Killer instinct. When you have your opponent down, you do not help them up. You step on their throat!!!!!!
by Misplaced Blazermaniac on Jun 5, 2009 4:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
How about Tony Parker for Rudy, Outlaw, and Blake?
Then San Antonio can say, we got “ROB_bed”!
by ralphzillo on Jun 5, 2009 5:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Rudy, Outlaw, Blake, Bayless, 1st round pick, 2010 1st round pick
For Parker http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=oa7drb
Offseason:
PG Options:(T)Mike Conley Jr/(FA)Jason Kidd - (D)Rodrigue Beaubois/Toney Douglas
SG Options: (DDT)Terrence Williams
SF Options:(FA)Ron Artest/(T)Tayshaun Prince
PF Options:(DDT)DaJuan Blair/(T)Reggie Evans/(T)Carl Landry - (D)Taj Gibson, (D)Damion James, (D)Kevin Seraphin
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 5, 2009 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
San Antonio: Goes Insane
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=r2yb3g
Spurs receives: Przybilla, Rudy, Bayless, Blake, Outlaw
Portland receives: Parker, Ginobli
Offseason:
PG Options:(T)Mike Conley Jr/(FA)Jason Kidd - (D)Rodrigue Beaubois/Toney Douglas
SG Options: (DDT)Terrence Williams
SF Options:(FA)Ron Artest/(T)Tayshaun Prince
PF Options:(DDT)DaJuan Blair/(T)Reggie Evans/(T)Carl Landry - (D)Taj Gibson, (D)Damion James, (D)Kevin Seraphin
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 5, 2009 7:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Quick note
JC the brick was talking about Rondo being shopped and was saying his teammates cannot stand him? Kinda interesting that a populer point guard is disliked that much. May not be a fit for P-town. But in the overall scheme what is the word on some of the mentioned pg’s proposed in trades to Portland this offseason?
I try to help with everything," Fernandez said. "If the coach says go rebound, I go rebound. I work for the team.
""If I'm playing this game to get media and attention, I shouldn't be here," Aldridge said. "I'm here to play basketball, and do what I can do to help this team win."
His stare became blank. It was apparent he was back in that place, on the Rose Garden's logo, picking up Aaron Brooks as the crowd nervously roared.
by Dragonage on Jun 5, 2009 7:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Those quotes about how his team mates cannot stand him were taken out of context (and are actually from his rookie season). They’re originally printed in an ESPN article praising Rondo’s development.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=macmullan_jackie&page=Rondo-090423
by Pengaloo on Jun 6, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
who we are gonna trade for
guys we are gonna end up with Raymond Felton and Gerald Wallace
first off the bob cats need money the owner it trying to sell
there combined salary is just under 14
the have a lottery pick the wouldn’t mind blake for Felton they have a rookie Wallce they could replace with a draft choice and free up a bunch of cap space
plus outlaw would be good in that system
lop sided trade watch and blazers sell off the rest of there draft picks
by Canthus90 on Jun 5, 2009 10:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not gonna complain
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
by faith on Jun 6, 2009 3:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes I am.... Gerald won't like comming off the bench behind Martell.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
by faith on Jun 6, 2009 3:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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