Talking Turkey (Followed by Miller Time)
by Dave on Jun 30, 2009 1:51 AM PDT
224 comments
Update: Check out this in-depth feature on Hedo over at TrueHoop.
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The old mailbox is full of questions regarding one of the Blazers (supposed) main targets during the off-season, Hedo Turkoglu. Today we're going to take a look at him along with another achievable, rumored target, Andre Miller. Turkoglu is first.
Benefits
Turkoglu would be acquired as the Blazers' starting small forward with an eye to sliding him over to power forward for a few minutes per game to get our young small forward some extra work. He'd be a great all-around offensive guy to fill those positions.
Right now the most critical question you ask about Blazer small forwards is if they can hit the three. Turkoglu has been a good three-point shooter since his second year in the league, averaging 38.5% for his career and 35.6% last year. He's taken around 5 threes per game the last couple of seasons. He's more than capable of taking the offensive pressure off of Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge, an aspect which was missing from last year's offense. Turkoglu averaged nearly 20ppg two years ago and almost 17ppg last season. He's a good passer and a great ball-handler for his size. He's a smart player. He draws fouls. He rebounds. He's got playoff experience. He's tall for his position at 6'10". He's 29 years old, which is not bad for a prospective Blazer small forward. You're not necessarily looking to fill that position for six years. You want somebody who will make a tangible difference for the next couple of years while the younger guys bake a little longer. Turkoglu would be a near-seamless addition to the lineup. He'd probably bring the most impact with the least disruption of anyone on the long list of potential acquisitions.
Drawbacks
Though Turkoglu remains productive his production did drop this year. His field goal percentage went from 45.6% to 41.3%. His three-point shooting dropped 44 points. His points per game dropped 2.7. His effective field goal percentage dropped 46 points and his true shooting percentage dropped 35. His PER went down three points even. It's not like you're catching him peaking. The Blazers' current offense will do one thing for him: give him a steady diet of completely open three-point shots. While he should feast on those, you're not exactly maximizing his skills with that system. In order to do that you have to move him around and give him the ball. Even with his assist number hovering around 5 per game I'm not sure you want another guy to give the ball to, especially if you're bringing in a new point guard as well.
Turkoglu draws fouls, which is a huge plus, but he's not a huge threat off the dribble. 80% of his shots are jumpers. His effective field goal percentage off of those last season was 35.6%. That's not great. Nicolas Batum has a good chance of being twice the penetration threat within two years while being able to post comparable three-point percentages. Martell Webster can do the three-point part right now.
Turkoglu averaged 3 turnovers per game two years ago and 2.6 this year. The Blazers don't want miscues from their small forward position.
A couple of years ago Jason Quick, Henry Abbott, Casey Holdahl, and myself were in a Vegas hotel room doing interviews. One of the main subjects at the time was Turkoglu supposedly being offered relatively cheaply around the league. To a man we said he was tantalizing in some aspects but his defense was a deal-killer. It hasn't improved much.
What's more, as Ben detailed yesterday Hedo is more expensive now than he supposedly was then. This will be the last big-earning contract opportunity of his career. He's not going to want to compromise. $10 million per year is not a ton to pay for a bona fide starter who's going to get your franchise over the hump, even if that starter isn't a star in his own right. But that doesn't change the fact that you're buying high here...higher than anyone else ever has for this player. There's a burden of proof there which I'm not sure he matches. The Blazers would love a three-year contract. He will probably want five. Even if they settle at four, that's a large commitment, especially for a guy who is going to decline during that period.
Also I'm having trouble figuring out how Portland would sign Turkoglu outright at the price he's likely to be asking. The $7 million salary he opted out of would have all but erased the Blazers' projected cap space. Unless they're not renewing Outlaw and/or Blake $10 million per year looks out of reach. The Blazers would have to renounce all of their exceptions to scrape together either figure.
Final Thoughts on Turkoglu
The part I can't get over is the Magic were willing, perhaps even happy, to replace this guy with Vince Carter. It's possible they've been snorting too much Mickey Juice down there. But it's also possible that his all-around statistical production looks more impressive on paper than on the court. Were the Blazers to acquire Hedo I'd be cautiously optimistic, with emphasis on the caution. You're probably not getting another major player after that signing. The idea would be that he alone would make the offense so dangerous that it couldn't be dealt with. Even as skilled as he is, I'm not sure he'd live up to that billing.
And now the other guy who's up for grabs, Andre Miller.
Benefits
I've been a closet admirer of Miller for a long time. He has a knack for his position without having to dominate the game to prove it. He's quite a nice passer and has great court vision. You never have to worry about being his teammate. The knock on him during the early part of his career was his offense. But he's developed into a credible threat, albeit as a generalist. He's balanced between jumpers and drives, hitting high percentages either way he goes. His true shooting percentage is high because he draws free throws and shoots them exquisitely. He rebounds well for his position, like Turkoglue showing himself as a strong statistical player. At 32 he's seen everything the league has to offer. He's never played fewer than 80 games per season in his 10-year career, nor fewer than 34 minutes per game in any season but his first. He'd likely be able to come to terms with playing for Brandon Roy. He'd also be able to mentor the younger Blazer point guards. Unlike Turkoglu he's unlikely to demand a repeat of his $10 million per year salary, making him an affordable option for Portland, especially with his minute-eating playing style.
Drawbacks
There are two serious ones. First, he's not a three-point shooter. No...he's the anti-three-point shooter. When three-point shooters come into contact with him they both explode and create a space-time vortex. Dr. Egon Spengler is constantly on the sideline yelling, "Don't cross the shot arcs!" Jon and Kate Gosselin have a closer relationship than Andre Miller and the three-point line. Need I go on? Let's just say Miller's 21% lifetime three-point shooting percentage doesn't exactly fit the mold for a Portland point guard right now. Two seasons ago he shot 8.8% for the year. Last year he upped it to 28.3% but still...this isn't exactly home-run slugger territory. It's more like toddler at a piñata party. "Over the girders, through the fountain, against the scoreboard, past the chicken, and off the shot clock" used to be a classic line from a Jordan-Bird H-O-R-S-E commercial. That's Miller's normal release from distance. Granted, part of the purpose of acquiring new players is to diversify the offensive portfolio at their various positions. But with Greg Oden clogging more space in the middle and Brandon Roy still brutally effective driving the ball, I don't foresee a day when three-point shooting isn't a strong part of the Blazers' job description for point guards.
The other drawback to Miller echoes Turkoglu: the defense. He was never considered much more than adequate and he hasn't improved with age, nor is he likely to. A backcourt of Roy and Miller would strike fear in the hearts of opposing offensive players like Mary Kate and Ashley strike fear in the hearts of buffet owners. As we've said before, this is an issue not only for the guards in question but for Portland's centers as well. You'd like Oden (particularly) and Przybilla to be able to target their defensive play instead of always running to put out the latest fire.
Another question the Blazers would have to answer about Miller is what the plan is behind him. At 32 and counting this guy isn't likely to give you four super-productive years. You're looking at a two-year rental. Who's being brought up during that time? Jerryd Bayless is the obvious (and only) answer but you have to realize that if he doesn't pan out--specifically as a point guard at that--your cupboard is all but empty and you'll be starting over again. The only other alternative is praying that Roy or Rudy can take the spot or making yet another trade.
Final Thoughts on Miller
Andre Miller does enough things right and could come at a cheap enough cost that he may be an answer in the short term. The time for this move was really two years ago though. It's hard at this point to consider him much more than settling. Then again, maybe a little settling is enough to put Portland in position to make the next step.
Final Musings
When you look at two all-around guys like Turkoglu and Miller you start thinking the Detroit model of championship-building, which is pretty much what the Blazers are going to have to try. The Pistons only won one though. Detroit also won it with defense first, which neither of these moves lend themselves to. My response to Portland signing either player would be the same: color me interested but not ecstatic.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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solid as ever, big D.
i’m looking forward to july 8th and beyond so that i can stop thinking about ‘who?’ and get back to losing sleep over ‘how (am i going to afford tickets)?’
GG MFer!
-joel przybilla
by hossticles on Jun 30, 2009 2:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's my tip on getting good seats for cheap.
Make a handicapped or extremely heavy friend.
A friend of mine, shall we say, can’t fit into the seats. The Rose Garden sells him a spot in the handicapped section, where he uses a folding chair, and is able to bring friends with him. The handicapped seats are pretty cheap for how close they area.
Brandon Roy is the Shawn Kemp of monogamy.
by robrun2 on Jan 6, 2009 8:46 AM PST
by TheTinfoil on Jun 30, 2009 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I started reading this...
And I thought, oh yeah, a buddy of mine and I have this exact situation.
And then I saw that the poster is said buddy of mine.
A three-pointer is not a "triple." A triple is a hit in baseball.
A three-pointer is not a "trey." A trey is either an ESPN sportscaster or something that bad spellers eat cafeteria food on. - Dave on Mar 20, 2009 10:00 PM PDT
by GustyJ on Jun 30, 2009 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair analysis.
I think I’d rather keep the cap space or trade for Hinrich than get Miller, but I wouldn’t be unhappy with him (as it’s assuredly short term).
I WOULD be unhappy with Turkeyglue – our offense is really efficient, his is not, and he sure isn’t going to be improving our defense so what’s the upside?
by austinpwnz on Jun 30, 2009 2:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
N'edo
NO-HEDO.
First of all, he’s 30, and turns 31 next march. Second of all, i fail to see how Hedo adresses any weaknesses of our team. He does NOT penetrate, and does NOT play good defense. Those are two big criterion for upgrading out team. Granted our SF’s just shoot 3’s, why pay him 8-10 million a year just to do that? We have Martell for that, at less than half the price.
Hedo is an inefficient scorer and player in general, he turns the ball over, he plays atrocious defense, he does not penetrate, and he is in pretty terrible shape. His jump shot reliant game spells a longer career, but we have a whole team of jump shooters at every position but Center, what is he adding? Compounding a strength does not always make you better, and it would not in this case.
Hedo is also over 30 years old, and the statistical drop he took from last year to this one alludes to a guy reaching his wall. He was never athletic to begin with, so its likely that he will only get worse.
Adding Hedo is a terrible idea, it will only give us a better clutch shooter that we don’t need. When the game is on the line, the ball is going to B-roy, where I…WE want it. I’ll take Brandon over Hedo in the 4th quarter anyday. heck…ill take Brandon over Hedo anytime, anyday.
by kajuayn on Jun 30, 2009 2:25 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Not getting into the whole hedo thing again but
With that last paragraph…if we know the ball is going to Roy odds are the defense does too. Wouldn’t it be nice to have another person with a knack for clutch shooting so as too free up Roy?
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 7:56 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry, not buying your analysis
He DOES penetrate and he can play decent defense. He’s certainly not worse than we already have.
As for your last paragraph… sure, let’s let Roy try to do everything for the team. We shouldn’t add any other talented scoring/driving options at all.
Are we talking about different players?
Turkoglu would be a great option for 3-4 years for something around the $8m/per mark. Not likely to get him for that, so I’d prefer he goes elsewhere.
by TheMadKiwi on Jun 30, 2009 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
TheMadKiwi is right!
Apparently many folks on this site didn’t watch the playoffs where Hedo consistently did all of the following:
1.) CREATE his own shot. Houston bogged us down at the end of games by keying on the one player we have (besides an incosistent TO) who could create a shot…BRoy
2.) CREATE shots for his teammates. Hedo’s court sense is great and his height (6-10) enables him to spot open teammates. His assist averages are pretty high for a SF
3.) Rebound and start the fast break. Lord knows, the Blazers need help creating easy buckets. Again, think on the Houston series and ask yourself what an extra 6 points a game in transition layups would have done for us (we’d have been up 3-1 for that game 5 at home)
4.) Hit ridiculous clutch shots with a hand in his face. All I saw him do against Cleveland and LA was hit big shot after big shot.
This is a guy who will create space for Roy, Oden, and Aldridge and who can execute when the clock is ticking down as well as add another playmaker to take the burden off of Roy.
Hedo + Hinrich….H2 Oh!!!!
by eets on Jun 30, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
PS
He also enables a non-PG lineup of Roy, Aldridge, Oden, Rudy, Hedo. Roy/Rudy/Hedo can all share playmaker duties. Creates some interesting matchup headaches.
All told, I suppose I actually prefer to let Martell and Nic develop, but if we could sign Hedo for 2yrs plus an option (doubtful) I just think it’s too interesting to pass up (for the right price).
3 years from now though, Nic (and maybe Martel?) will be thriving and this discussion is moot.
by eets on Jun 30, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with that lineup is on defense not offense
who’s going to guard the other teams small quick PG?
by mwalter on Jun 30, 2009 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beat them into submission on the scoreboard and take their inside game from them, and crush their runs with unrelenting offense.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
"New Man Law: If you don't show up for the draft you don't get to come later if you're picked. If you believe in yourself, show up and sit there. If nobody else believes in you, take it and cry like a man...in front of the cameras."
-Dave
by faith on Jun 30, 2009 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Surely
Of course you would want to add someone who can eleviate the pressure from roy, but Hedo isn’t that player. Honestly, Hedo does not penetrade and dish that much. His penetration only allowed him to get open jump shots. His high turnover ration suggests he is not efficient at creating shots for others. His penetration often came from a high screen and roll where there was little help defense due to other magic shooters, and the defense was more worried about Howard rolling to the bucket. It should be expected he be able to get into the lane in that case. Even then, it was not a sure thing. Also, at 6 10 how many dunks did he have in the playoffs? I dont remember him dunking it once… infact all his shots in the lane (majority) appeared to be fadeways. That finese style is not what we need if we are going to be stifling the growth of Webster and Batum and paying him nicely (as one would expect).
His defense is not decent, its pourous. He has never been good at defense…I mean really…no. His PER is lower than TRAVIS OUTLAW. Like…reeeeally! He isn’t worse than we have, no, but he is not much better. And he’s not helping us address one of our main crutches, defense. WIll Hedo become our defensice stopper? We do not expect roy to guard the opposing teams best wing player….do we want HEDO doing that? Adding Hedo will mean less Batum, or other adequate wing defender. The opportunity cost for that is enormous.
by kajuayn on Jun 30, 2009 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good analysis as always.
Hedu is definitely not the sexy choice people dream about. (literally) But there are some things about his game that I find interesting for the Blazers.
As a point forward he actually solves some problems at the PG spot. You can basically play Bayless as much as you want without worrying about him running the offense. You also don’t really need a third PG in the lineup. Your lineup options and flexibility are suddenly off the chart.
I wouldn’t be crushed if the Blazers signed him, but I would much rather they improve the perimeter defense somehow. If he ends up being a Blazer I will just assume no better option were available.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 30, 2009 2:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
the main problem with that is
what happens when Hedos wheels fall off in a few years? We have an under developed Bayless who cannnot run the offense. That is why bringing in Kidd makes the most sense. 115 playoff games, and he is arguably one of the smartest PGs of all time. As Bucher write a few days ago,
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=bucher_ric&page=Kidd-090629
teams with him simply run better overall. If even a fraction of that an rub off on Bayless, combined with his scoring penchant, we can be amazing.
The thing about needing to add veteran help as KP has said, is not looking towards the future, but rather to bridge us TO the future. On a team this young and talented veteran help only needs to be here for a few years until the rest of the team are seasoned enough to do it on their own.
Also interestingly enough Hedo did get a vote for all defensive team this year, so I am starting to think he is a bit better than people give him credit for. At least one coach thought highly enough of him to give him a vote and that is better than about 300other players FWIW.
Collegiate stats:
NCAA Arizona:
Jerryd Bayless: 19.7pts, 4.0 asts, 3to
NAIA Wisconsin-Stevens Point
Terry Porter: 19.7pts, 4.3 asts, 2.33to
by SpyderRyder on Jun 30, 2009 2:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Travis got a vote too.
I would be fine with Jason Kidd. Even though he’s much older than Hedo so if you’re worried about wheels falling off he’s definitely not your guy.
I also don’t buy into the mentoring thing very much. Steve Nash couldn’t mentor Leandro Barbosa. Andre Miller couldn’t change Louis Williams. Baron Davis didn’t help Monta Ellis. They were all combo guards before and they’re still combo guards now.
I seriously doubt a couple years under the tutelage of Methuselah is going to change Bayless much. His playmaking ability is probably always going to be a weakness that you have to hide.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 30, 2009 3:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get why Jason Kidd even gets brought up. Even if we overlooked the fact that he is so over paid. The guy
is burnt out now. He hasn’t been good for a long time.
by BRoyInThe4th on Jun 30, 2009 7:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A couple things.
1.) He’s a free agent, so he’s not overpaid yet. Every free agent signing hinges on cost and Jason Kidd is no different. He can’t be overpaid until you actually pay him.
2.) He’s not burnt out. In last years playoffs he actually had a slightly better PER than Chris Paul. Last season he posted the best 3 point % of anyone on the Mavericks in both the regular and post season. He makes his teammates better and still plays decent defense (decent meaning much better than Blake) against bigger guards. Oh, and he’s the best rebounding PG in the entire league. (Blake is 56th)
In short, he’s about a billion times better than what we got. Perhaps he’s not completely ideal for the situation and maybe there are better options, but to say he’s not good anymore is pretty silly.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 30, 2009 7:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
making a comparison to an injured Paul rings hollow. Paul was on painkillers to even play, and his team pretty much quit on him.
Kidd imploded in a few of the Denver games, committing numerous turnovers. That’s worrisome.
by Cablinasian on Jun 30, 2009 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nitpicking
In last years playoffs he had a very good PER which was better than:
Paul Pierce
Ben Gordon
Mike Bibby
Derrick Rose
Rodney Stuckey
Aaron Brooks
Jason Terry
Delonte West
Rudy Fernandez
and of course… Steve Blake
He’s still the best rebounding PG in the game which would probably make us the best rebounding team in the Universe. We also accomplish the goal of improving the defense without hurting the offense. Seems like a no-brainer if you can get him at the right cost.
By the way, I’m not the defender of all things Jason Kidd. He’s certainly not my first choice in upgrading the PG spot. I would be a little disappointed if we signed him. Still…. I can’t deny the fact that he would make this team better in a bunch of ways. Anyway you slice it, he’s still a massive upgrade over Blake.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 30, 2009 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, people seem to be making a false comparison here
comparing Kidd now to Kidd then. Sure, he’s lost 70% of what he once was, but in his prime, he was head and shoulders above every PG in the league. As Blazer fans, you’d think we remember how much of a positive influence the shell of Scottie Pippen was to that 2000 team (even if Whitsitt blew everything the next year by trading for Kemp)
As has been pointed out multiple times (usually in a derogatory sense), but the Mavs advanced statistics have him ranked as one of the top players in the league last year. Sure, some of that might be Cuban justifying the deal, but that doesn’t explain while adjusted +/- ranked him as the fourth-best player last yearand why the Mavs were 11 pts/ 100 poss better with him on the court than off (better than Roy or Aldridge last year).
I personally would prefer a younger guy (Conley/Sessions younger, not just Hinrich younger), but he would be a solid pick-up. Especially with the debate about using longer guys like Nic to guard the quick PGs, Kidd is still a solid wing defender, which would make that an option.
by Royster on Jun 30, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2 things to thinnk about
1) I fully admit that Kidd is on the decline, but he still posted better #s than a lot of PGs out there as well as the fact that his advanced stats are through the roof.
2) Going after Conley/Sessions is a bit backwards to me as the entire point of adding a veteran is for gaining playoff experience and getting Conley/Sessions would be a step back in that sense. Sure we may win 3-4 more games in the regular season, but I would rather have 3-4 more wins in the post season with the experience that vet could bring.
That is why we did not trade up for a PG in the draft as he would not be able to help us out in the most important time and the same would be true of Conley/Sessions.
Collegiate stats:
NCAA Arizona:
Jerryd Bayless: 19.7pts, 4.0 asts, 3to
NAIA Wisconsin-Stevens Point
Terry Porter: 19.7pts, 4.3 asts, 2.33to
by SpyderRyder on Jun 30, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He obviously won't be making $20 million with his next contract
And if it dips into the $5-6 million a year for two years I don’t see how it’s a bad deal for us.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not worried about Kidds
wheels falling off due to the nature of the PG position which ages considerably better than the SF position.
As for the mentoring thing, why would Nash have to mentor Barbossa? They both had set roles on the team and where successful as well. There was also not a playmaking SG that Barbossa could play off of. Miller and Davis’ BBIQ pales in comparison to Kidds and they are almost as much combo guards as WIlliams and Ellis.
The thing of it is we do not need Bayless to be throwing no look alley-opp passes from halfcourt on a dime, chalking up 15 apg and throwing between the leg, behind the back passes.
No one complains on how Blake runs the O, but rather how he cant penetrate of supposedly defend. Not one person wold call Blake an amazing passer, yet he ran a 54 win team very well.
All Bayless needs to learn is how to simply run a team to at least the level of Blake. Add that to his scoring and D abilities and and we have a winner. If you want amazing playmaking it went out the door with Sergio.
Collegiate stats:
NCAA Arizona:
Jerryd Bayless: 19.7pts, 4.0 asts, 3to
NAIA Wisconsin-Stevens Point
Terry Porter: 19.7pts, 4.3 asts, 2.33to
by SpyderRyder on Jun 30, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barbossa was supposed to be a backup PG/PG of the future
He did a horrible job distributing the ball and ended up launching 3’s at the buzzer.
The Suns have had horrible backup PG play recently and probably would have taken a PG in the recent draft (at 14) if they didn’t think they were going to get Curry.
Nash hasn’t really demonstrated any ability to “mentor” anyone he’s played with.
by ninjasocks on Jun 30, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Nash was supposedly mentoring Barbosa to become the PG of the future.
But you make some good points.
I would definitely be OK with Kidd.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 30, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't like either of these guys
and if this is the road the Blazers go down I see them dooming themselves to medium accomplishment (unless Oden just takes off).
ignacio
by ignacio on Jun 30, 2009 2:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Pass on both.
Portland has cap space now, but not for long so they need to use it wisely. Portland’s biggest problem last season was defense – especially perimeter defense. It would be great to upgrade PG for defensive purposes and Miller doesn’t do that.
Turkoglu doesn’t play great defense either and isn’t efficient enough for Portland’s offense. He might not complement Roy that well either, but he wouldn’t be a terrible fit. His asking price is too high though and Portland would have to renounce solid players to get him for a couple of years before he breaks down.
by torsoheap on Jun 30, 2009 3:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
neither interested nor ecstatic.
i am a fan of Turk’s, just not as a blazer. and miller, imo, doesn’t work either.
"We didn’t pick Blair because of his history of fat-assery" -BlazerTag
by 5212872 on Jun 30, 2009 4:16 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hedo rejected 4 year/35m from Orlando.
It looks like he most definitely wants his 10m a year, and likely for 5.
Too much IMO.
by Bskey on Jun 30, 2009 4:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not smart of him
Does he realize how few teams can pay him $10 million? I doubt he gets more than $8 million a year and more likely $7 million
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great point, Dave!
All we need now is Kirk Hinrich.
2 simple reasons:
1) We need upgrade at 1 much more then at 3.
2) At BOTH positions we need STRONG defenders to pair with Roy at guard and LMA at forward. So neither Kidd nor Dre can solve our problems. Nor any other big FA name like Bibby.
Hedo may help us win couple season games, but to contend we need D much more then O. Any team need GREAT D to win it all.
KP, bring us Kirk!
by k04a on Jun 30, 2009 5:13 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hinrich gives us five years, at least, at PG...
…and that should be enough time to find and groom his successor (and hopefully grab a couple rings along the way). I like Bayless a lot, but I don’t think he’ll ever be the kind of pass-first PG we need under Nate. Maybe, after Kirk helps us bridge to whatever comes next, we’ll have different needs—or even a different coach by then. (Not that I’m in any rush to let Nate go.) But for the time being what we need is a better defensive PG who can hit the three, and I think Kirk fills that bill better than most. Let’s see what Martell can do at the 3 and get a solid back-up for LMA, and we should be stylin’!
by VTDuck on Jun 30, 2009 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah. KP can do better.
I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas. What sort of present is Santa KP going to leave under the tree?
Getting Miller would be like wanting a shiny new bike and getting a garage sale cast-off that your mom tried to make look new.
Hedo would be like the funky present your Aunt Mildred sent you. Ummm, thanks??
by upper left corner on Jun 30, 2009 5:22 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Yes!
Santa KP please deliver something sweet!
by schackdaddy on Jun 30, 2009 5:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hedo = crappy fruitcake from the neighbors?
by SugarMoses on Jun 30, 2009 5:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the pink bunny costume
the Ralphie had to wear in Chirstmas Story?
by two4larue on Jun 30, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Red Rider BB Gun that we always wanted
And then we shot our eye out?
by ninjasocks on Jun 30, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do like Hedo but not when
are needs are PG and PF(backup). While Hedo can play some at the 4, he still won’t provide us when PF type of rebounding and aggresive play. Miller is also the worst of the three options we have in regards to signing a starting PG. I’d rather we signed Kidd or Bibby. I am still holding out for the Hinrich trade and signing either Bass or Millsap with our $7-$9 million of cap space.
by VinnyB on Jun 30, 2009 5:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Millsap will be too expensive
and won’t want to play backup anymore. He’s got the stuff to be a legit starting PF and deserves the chance.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 7:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Philly really wants to resign Miller, and Hedo wants too much money.
I’ve really got no idea what KP has planned. I would prefer a trade for a PG, and take the free agency route for the PF.
by Bskey on Jun 30, 2009 5:33 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Miller didnt even go to his exit interview
they may want him, but the feeling does not appear to be mutual
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
I will talk about DeJuan Blair no more forever
by jonestr on Jun 30, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Andre Miller's Asking Price
A source tells The Philadelphia Inquirer that free agent Andre Miller will be seeking around $10M a year and wants a minimum contract length of three years.
I think this is on par with people’s expectations of what Andre Miller is worth. Thoughts? Too high…too low…not the guy?
by schackdaddy on Jun 30, 2009 5:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
To high
.. and not the guy for this team.. especially at that price.
Rudy & Nic
by k04a on Jun 30, 2009 5:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
This thread seems to echo the same sentiments that neither Hedo or Miller is the answer but more of a ho-hum application to a team in need of much more.
Jason Kidd seems to be looking better and better. Kirk has always been on the radar.
I’m surprised David Lee’s name hasn’t been coming up more. Any thoughts on the PF from New York?
by schackdaddy on Jun 30, 2009 5:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's going to make too much to play back up behind Aldridge.
Many people here like Lee, but he deserves more time and money than he’s worth to Portland.
by Bskey on Jun 30, 2009 5:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...however,
someone tossed out the idea of trading LMA for a top tier point guard and signing Lee to replace him. I’m a big Lee fan and think he would do a great job. Is there a point guard out their you’d flip LMA for?
by mwalter on Jun 30, 2009 7:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miller, like a lot of guys
is seeking more than he’ll get. That’s why there are contract negotiations. Luol Deng and Andre Miller were both seeking max contracts as FAs a couple years, and neither got it. Especially this year with the economy, guys are still seeking deals based on the economics of previous years, when the reality is that they’ll have to settle for significantly less because the money’s not out there.
I’m not saying he’d be a good pickup, but there’s no way he’s getting $10 per
by Royster on Jun 30, 2009 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Players are gonna be in for a shock
in this year’s free agency. Guys that would command $10 million will now have to settle for $7 million. Guys that would normally get the full MLE will have to settle for a couple million. It’s a rough market out there right now.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 8:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a shame
I really like David Lee but you’re right. He would want more playing time and that would probably cause some chemistry issues. Not what we’re looking to stir the Blazers cocktail with eh.
by schackdaddy on Jun 30, 2009 5:48 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you, guys
D. Lee, P. Millsap are very good players. But they’re full-time starters not a 15 min. backups.
Rudy & Nic
by k04a on Jun 30, 2009 5:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Meh.
Hedo doesn’t fit what this team needs. Our offense runs through Roy most of the time. We wouldn’t utilize Hedo very effectively in our system, which means we’re acquiring him for the things he isn’t good at. I’d say the thing he was best at in Orlando’s offense was the high pick and roll with Rashard. Two three point threats coming off the screen. Doesn’t seem like he would be as effective running that play with Martell or Travis in the lineup. LaMarcus might be good, but then you’re not getting threes, you’re getting long jumpers, so the risk/reward isn’t as high.
A healthy Martell is still my best choice for the SF position. Let’s use the money on Hinrich and McDyess.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
by bfan on Jun 30, 2009 6:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Pass
I don’t either of them, ESPECIALLY the two together. It will make our defense much worse.
by Balian on Jun 30, 2009 6:13 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hedo don't beat the L*kers
With the Kings, now with the Magic, Hedo has done nothing to beat the L*kers. He hasn’t exactly played his best against LA. I don’t want to see him in Portland!
"I didn't know I was going to score 52 so I didn't think to Tivo it or nothin." -B Roy
by Dodoh on Jun 30, 2009 6:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Smoke screen
Like the draft, I think a lot of these rumors are smoke screens and negotiating ploys. For example, If Chicago thinks there’s a legitimate chance the Blazers are interested in Miller then perhaps they’ll be willing to come down in their price on Hinrich – which has obviously been too high, otherwise KP would’ve pulled that trigger already.
For the most part I’m watching this play out like I watched “The Usual Suspects” play out; no clue how it’s going to end other than to know that I’ll be pleasantly surprised.
by LaughingJon on Jun 30, 2009 6:38 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Ron Artest
makes the most sense for us at sf. I think he would curb his shot selection to fit our offense. Best defender available, and with Yao out, he may look to move. His curbed thuggary is needed as well. Sub Kirk for Blake and we are looking real tough.
by Dudehere on Jun 30, 2009 6:56 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
i hate to say it
but I think th eleadership in our clubhouse could absorb him, and keep him in line. I like it…. then flip trout and blake for hinrich and we have a deal, and a damn good team
by winnerwinner on Jun 30, 2009 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post about Hedo, I don't think I want him now. I'd rather stick with the small forwards we have
and sign a point guard. Use that cap room and trade for Miller or Hinrich.
by BRoyInThe4th on Jun 30, 2009 7:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll pass on both.
I think most people here know I’m firmly in the camp that believes all Portland really needs is time. There is enough talent on the roster, it’s just lacking in experience.
I do not believe, as a lot of folks here seem to do, that the Blazers have to use their cap space just because they have it. In my opinion, those people are not listening to Kevin Pritchard. Time and time again he talks about having options. That is what I think is important to him. Having the ability to make a variety of moves. This allows KP the flexibility (another term he uses) to take advantage of a deal, should the right one develop. If the right deal is not there, no big deal. It might mean one of his options expires if he doesn’t use it, but it does not mean that others are not still available.
When I look at the guys who are on the market as UFA’s, I don’t see a lot of names that make sense for Portland. The guys I might like (which Hedo and Miller are among) just don’t quite fit into our matrix. They wouldn’t set the team back, but they also don’t appear to bring the sort of improvement that their price tag would suggest.
I think it’s fairly clear that McMillan would like a bit of veteran leadership. Someone who knows all the little things. I think it is also safe to say that having that guy be known as a good defender is on Nate’s wish list. Next you look at positions and where the team might be thin personal wise. Yet Portland really isn’t thin at any position. (How can we be when it seems about half the people here talk about consolidating the roster and worry about playing time?) PG and maybe backup PF are the only two spots where the Blazers could use some reinforcing (and we just drafted two PF’s). All this winnows down the pool of players that might make sense for Portland.
So who do we have?
I like Grant Hill. He’s a FA, but it sounds like he wants to stay in Phoenix and as a SF he would be taking time away from Batum, Webster and Outlaw.
I like Battier, but he’s not a FA, Houston is unlikely to want to give him up and there is the same issue of position.
There really are not a lot of PG’s out there that might be considered available and whom I like. Miller, Bibby, Kidd, all bring the veteran leadership Nate wants, but only Kidd can arguably be said to improve the defense. Plus none of these guys appear willing to sign a two or at most three year deal. Anything longer does not make sense (and takes away from the flexibility Pritchard values). I really only see one guy who looks like he fits the bill fairly well and that’s Hinrich. The issue there, since he’s not a FA, is what does Portland have to give up to get him.
There are a couple of veteran PF’s that are FA’s and would be willing to play back up minutes. McDyess is the most obvious example. I can see signing one of these guys (so long as his name is not Gooden). But I don’t think that qualifies for the BIG DEAL so many here are hankering for.
Personally, the only so called big move I see Portland making is a deal for Hinrich. But since it is KP at the controls, who knows? I’ll just sit back and see what happens. Odds are it’s all good, whether something big happens or not.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 30, 2009 7:56 AM PDT reply actions 6 recs
Excellent take
Recc’ed.
"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder
by jamon51 on Jun 30, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rec. I would love to play poker with the folks who think
that a trade for Hedo, Miller, Kidd, Bibby, Marion, et al would be smart. To me, a move for players like that would smack of clumsy desperation. That’s not KP’s style. He doesn’t play a hand he knows won’t advance the team, and he doesn’t forego the long term for the short.
We cannot bring in someone at the point who cannot hit the three. That includes Devin Harris. And we cannot bring in a veteran at any position who can’t or won’t play at least respectable defense. Hinrich and McDyess not only seem like the best players for the Blazers to bring in, they are just about the only players available at a reasonable price who have what we need: veteran experience, good character, good defense, won’t break the bank, and so on.
KP might surprise us all by bringing in one or more players that none of us have seriously considered, but I would not be surprised if he just brings in a backup point guard and the team looks almost the same in October. And I’d be fine with that, because I would know that KP did everything he could to make the team better during this offseason.
by MiledAnimal on Jun 30, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
here is the thing
Kidd shoots almost as well as Hinrich and since joining the Mavs, has hit 166/399 and was at .447 in the playoffs this year.
add to that
Vet experience: Kidd has 115 playoff games, Hinrich has 29, Miller has 22
Good character: While Kidd did plead guilty to a domestic abuse charge back in 2001 his wife sounds like a wack job and since then Kidd has been heavily involved with charities and has even supposedly gone dry in the process as well
Good D: Kidd was either 1st or 2nd team all defensive team from 98 to 06 and even at his older age still gained more votes than Hinrich the last 2 years 13-1 2 years ago and 3-1 last year.
Wont break the bank: Hinrich is slated to make 9.5m, and everything I have heard from Mavs fans is that 10m is the absolute max that Kidd would be able to fetch, probably less the longer the contract.
I agree with you on McDyess though he would be perfect.
Collegiate stats:
NCAA Arizona:
Jerryd Bayless: 19.7pts, 4.0 asts, 3to
NAIA Wisconsin-Stevens Point
Terry Porter: 19.7pts, 4.3 asts, 2.33to
by SpyderRyder on Jun 30, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Diffence
At his age Kidd has no quickness to guard PGs. He has size to guard some 2s. But he is on the other planets with Kirk right now on D.
Rudy & Nic
by k04a on Jun 30, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
neither does Hinrich
most of the time it was Rose or gordon who were D’ing the PGs the Bulls faced
Collegiate stats:
NCAA Arizona:
Jerryd Bayless: 19.7pts, 4.0 asts, 3to
NAIA Wisconsin-Stevens Point
Terry Porter: 19.7pts, 4.3 asts, 2.33to
by SpyderRyder on Jun 30, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no problem with signing Kidd as a FA.
As long as it is a reasonable deal. It shouldn’t be for any more than 3 years, possibly 4 if the last is a team option. I don’t see Kidd signing that. The deal with Kidd is that he’s in the driver’s seat. It really isn’t a matter of POrtland just going out and making a deal to get him.
If Kidd is willing to sign with Portland with the idea that he will be the starting PG for the next three years, I can get behind that. This season Blake gets bumped to 2nd unit and Bayless has to wait his turn for another year, with either possibly available in another deal.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 30, 2009 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
most Mav fans
think/have heard that there might be a 3yr/$24m contract on the table. IMO it would have to be a S&T with Blake involved and run Kidd/Bayless.
Lower mins to extend Kidd and more mins for Bayless to speed up his development.
Collegiate stats:
NCAA Arizona:
Jerryd Bayless: 19.7pts, 4.0 asts, 3to
NAIA Wisconsin-Stevens Point
Terry Porter: 19.7pts, 4.3 asts, 2.33to
by SpyderRyder on Jun 30, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d be willing to gamble on Harris being able to shoot 36% on the open threes of the Blazer offense. Harris is so much better than Blake in every other facet of the game that it wouldn’t matter. Shooting has become somewhat overrated, it seems. The ability to get easy points on the fastbreak would be very beneficial to our offense.
by Cablinasian on Jun 30, 2009 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
easier baskets in the half court, as well
Harris can drive and finish, plus set-up the bigs when the opposing PF/C slide over to cut him off
plus Harris’ shooting % would rise as he gets more open looks from playing alongside Roy, etc
comparing Harris to Miller as a 3pt shooter is just a “clanker” of an argument
by two4larue on Jun 30, 2009 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
way to man up
OLP is the best thing Canada has given the world outside of maple syrup
by SuperDave on Jun 30, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why no talk about Shawn Marion?
While people are entertaining thoughts about players the PTBs have a slim chance of obtaining on the free agent market, why isn’t Marion’s name mentioned? He’s an athletic small forward who can play D with the best and has played PF very competently. He’d need to be a starter at the 3 but could move over to the 4 when Aldridge needs rest, getting Batum his minutes. Assuming Bayless is the backup pg, the 2nd unit would be more prone to run the floor, and Marion has plenty of experience playing that style of game.
by Benjamanic on Jun 30, 2009 7:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Because...
1) He’s a prima donna and his attitude wouldn’t be welcome in our locker room
2) He’s clearly on the downside of his career already
3) He can’t operate in anything but an up tempo system, and Sarge will never run an up tempo team
4) He’ll demand more money than he’s worth
5) He’ll want to be a star somewhere and he can’t do that here
That’s all I have for now. Let’s just say I’d be perturbed if we signed him.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're probably right, but people are talking about Artest...
who is a bad offensive player within the team concept because his shot selection sucks (tries to take over too much). He played team ball in the playoffs, but that’s not really the norm for him.
And Devin Harris is a pipe dream.
You’re probably right about most of the points and it’s not going to happen. I question the prima donna thing, though, since we’re not in the locker room. In terms of the money and age issue, you could make the same argument about Miller. He’ll probably want a contract that is both too long and too expensive. Either way, you can’t fault Marion’s energy and defense. Just sayin’.
by Benjamanic on Jun 30, 2009 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is pretty well documented that
he wanted out of Phoenix because he wanted to be “the man” on his own team and was jealous of the attention the Amar’e and Nash got. He hasn’t worked out in Miami and Toronto. I think he will get burned in FA……..and have to take an offer but will resent it. I would stay away from Marion for those reasons. It is too bad though….he would be awesome on the defensive end
"You're welcome friend
I love you."
- Tom "Dragline" inHawaii
by 92wastheyear on Jun 30, 2009 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and...
6) Not a great outside shooter
by AverageJon on Jun 30, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree...
Marion is 31. Yes, he is no longer has upside, but that is not what we are looking for. No, I don’t think he will demand more money than he is worth. He is in Toronto for God’s sake. My guess is, he wants out. He’ll probably sign a $5-7 million per year contract, and probably for 3 years. He is a great defender and a good spot-up shooter. He has not been a good long-distance shooter since leaving Phoenix, but shot 32-39% while in Phoenix. Perhaps it wasn’t getting worse, but being on crap teams. Marion will start, but he probably should over Batum.
I think Marion probably has as much in his tank as does Hedo because he doesn’t play year round and would meet multiple needs. I don’t know much about his attitude because I don’t know him or his teammates, but perhaps KP does.
by BVandy on Jun 30, 2009 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He shot 32-39%...
from 3 point country.
by BVandy on Jun 30, 2009 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points--especially the versatility comment.
I don’t know his game that well, but Hedo seems like he would be more likely to slide to the 2 as a secondary position than the 4. That’s the least of our needs with Rudy and Roy at those spots. I’m guessing that Hedo wouldn’t be very effective defending PFs, whereas Marion can hold it down. If they sign Hedo and the rookies aren’t panning out, we then have no backup 4 and no cap room to fill other needs.
by Benjamanic on Jul 1, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kirk Hinrich.
I miss Martell. Come back soon!
by mannyfresh1 on Jun 30, 2009 9:13 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
I'm actually OK with Miller.
He’s the most efficient offensive player on the 76’ers, ranking slightly ahead of Iggy in PER. The fact that he can’t shoot threes is troublesome, but it doesn’t seem to be slowing down his production.
76’ers PER
________Andre Miller- 18.71
Andre Iguodala- 18.49
Marreese Speights-18.01
Louis Williams- 16.39
Thaddeus Young- 15.40
Samuel Dalembert- 13.22
Really, what’s the practical difference between Roy playing next to Miller or other poor shooters like Harris, Rondo, Sessions, or Rose? When it comes down to it having a good PG who can’t shoot threes is better than having a bad PG who can. Also, I think people forget how good a shooter Roy is compared to his peers. You might not be able to get away with it in Miami playing next to a weak distance shooter like Wade, but in Portland it’s probably not that big an issue.
3 point percentage
Roy: 38%
Kobe: 35%
Lebron: 35%
Wade: 32%
I don’t really know how to judge Miller defensively. He always seemed like a capable defender to me, but I only watched a handful of 76’er games last year. I’m wary of defensive statistics, but for what it’s worth Hollinger has him ranked slightly below Hinrich on defense. At any rate I would be amazed if Miller wasn’t a significant upgrade on defense.
"Kirk Hinrich (-6.09) re-established himself as one of the league’s better defenders in the backcourt after missing some time with an injury, though you wish he wouldn’t leave his feet quite so much. I’ve never thought quite as highly of Andre Miller (-4.40) or Raymond Felton (-2.36), but each defended both backcourt spots more than adequately and their strong adjusted plus-minus numbers warrant a shout-out here, too "-Hollinger
One last thing that I think gets overlooked with Miller is his ability to set the pace. He can run when it’s needed, but does it only when appropriate. That seems like something Nate would appreciate with all the young guys on the roster.
One possible destination for the best pump fake in basketball could be Portland. As a matter of fact, those two fit about as nicely Quincy Jones tutoring an artistic prodigy. The Trailblazers only flaw right now is their point guard, and they were the youngest team in this years post-season. They really could have used a calming floor general that knows when to defer, when to hold up, when to run, and when to briefly take over. Miller sets the tempo like a metronome. He did it in Philadelphia and he’d do it in Portland.-hoopsdoctors.com
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 30, 2009 9:16 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Miller has always struck me as at best mediocre on defense. He’s lost a lot of quickness with age, making him even more susceptible to the quick guards. He would get eaten alive against the Brooks type guard.
by Cablinasian on Jun 30, 2009 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Although for me, age is the biggest weakness for Miller, which goes hand-in-hand with his poor 3-point shooting. If he loses a step next year, which a lot of players do at his age, he has nothing to fall back on. And we’d be stuck with him for at least the next 3 years.
That’s the difference between acquiring Miller versus Harris, Rondo, Sessions, Rose, etc.: they’re all in their early to mid-20’s, while Miller is 33. They’re all likely to be good penetrating point guards for the next 8-10 years (or 6-8 years in Harris’ case), while Miller will be lucky to still be a good penetrating PG beyond next year. And they all have time to add shooting as a part of their game. As Hollinger and others have noted, most PG/wing players who remain effective in their mid-30’s shoot the ball well (Kidd, Grant Hill), since that’s a skill that doesn’t decline with age. Miller does not.
I agree with Dave, it seems like Miller would have been the perfect move two years ago. Not now.
by MDBlazerfan on Jun 30, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a pretty bold statement.
You do realize than Arron Brooks career scoring high against Miller is 6 points?
01-28-2008
Andre Miller: 16 PTS, 7 AST, 3 STL
Aaron Brooks: 2 PTS, 2 AST, 2 STL01-06-2009
Andre Miller: 9 PTS, 8 AST, 3 TOV,
Aaron Brooks: 6 PTS, 3 AST, 1 TOV, 5 PF01-15-2008
Andre Miller: 26 PTS, 6 ASST, 3 STL
Aaron Brooks: 6 PTS, 2 AST, 1 STL, 4 PF
Here’s how Miller breaks down against the other PGs in the league.
Head to Head Scoring Average
Miller: 18.9
Paul: 15
Miller: 16.9
Rondo: 10.1
Miller: 12.5
Williams:16.1
Miller: 15.5
Nash: 16.3
Miller: 19
Rose: 19.5
Miller: 17
Brooks: 4.7
Miller: 19.3
Conley: 14.7
Miller: 16
Davis: 16
Miller: 12.3
Billups: 12.5
Miller: 13
Westbrook: 12
As you can see Miller doesn’t get “eaten alive” by anyone, especially not Brooks.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 30, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s really lost a step. He seemed slower last year and, in my opinnon, is hitting the age when he’ll get even slower pretty quick.
Also, the Philly team defense is excellent, headed by Iguodala and Dalembert. That kind of help defense can disguise pretty much anyone’s defense.
by Cablinasian on Jun 30, 2009 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's still not getting eaten alive by anyone.
I would say it’s pretty clear that he’s an upgrade on defense any way you look at it. Generates more steals, more blocks, has a better DWS and adjusted plus-minus.
Obviously you can’t just look at stats, especially on defense, but from what I’ve seen he’s a good smart team defender. He’s a little slow in one on one situations but not to the extent of Nash, Kidd, Bibby or Blake. If he’s the best you can get in free agency then count your lucky stars. The defense will improve slightly and the offense will improve a bunch. His age is the only downside, but your praying that Bayless can take over in two or three years anyway. I don’t really see the downside.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 30, 2009 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not a good defender, never has been
He’s the typical cagey veteran PG. Somehow gets to the basket despite no real speed anymore, knows how to find his teammates, and rebounds pretty well for a PG. Can’t shoot, though on a better offense he could get more open looks and shoot a better percentage, like Kidd in Dallas.
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 30, 2009 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why get anybody?
I know this will sound contrary to everything we are hoping for, a big name veteren who will lead us to the promise land. But as I look at the roster, we already have talent at all of the positions, including the ones where we are the weakest. The only thing that is holding us back in the playoffs is youth and inexperience. I say we should give more playing time to Batum, Bayless, Pendergraph, Cunningham, so they will be ready in two seasons for the championship. Any veteren we bring in will just stunt their growth.
Why deal away valuable long term assets in a trade for short term rent-a-players. Picking up FA or trades are for teams that have a hole to fill with no young talent to insert. We have the young talent, let it develope.
I say the roster is fine as it is. We need for them to play more minutes
by blazerbill on Jun 30, 2009 9:55 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Im with you man
I don’t see what the Hurry is, I’m with you on Developing what we have. The Big Free agent class is next year. I would rather see us save the money and get someone else who is a permanent solution. 1 more year will tell us if Blake & Martell are going to work. I know it’s boring, But why run down the hill and pluck one cow when we can walk down and pluck the whole herd.
Isn’t patience a Virtue :)
by irishnick1980 on Jun 30, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have to re-sign Roy and Aldridge next summer, so this will be our last summer with capspace.
by jksnake99 on Jun 30, 2009 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That makes this an opportunity, not a mandate.
by MiledAnimal on Jun 30, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
unless you believe, as I do, that the current Blazer roster just isn't talented enough to ever win a title
by jksnake99 on Jun 30, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They're just so young right now.
Granted, the team we saw this season could not win a championship, but there is still so much upside. The team is expected to be a top team next season and the young players will improve over the next few years. Even Blake and Przybilla improved this season.
by MiledAnimal on Jun 30, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see substantial upside in 3 players-- Oden, Batum and Bayless
If those 3 guys improve dramatically, or one of them (and it’ll have to be Oden) blows up into a real star, then the Blazers could win one. That’s a lot of crossing of the fingers though. Hedo’s not the answer, but if the Blazers need to do absolutely everything possible to another talented piece that fits the team and is under the age of 30.
by jksnake99 on Jun 30, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that is necessarily true.
Portland will have at least 17.5 million in expiring contracts next summer. They can free up another 7.5 if they don’t give Joel a qualifying offer. What is the max increase Brandon and LaMarcus, combined, could account for? I don’t see it being much more than $9 – 10 million.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 30, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Brandong Roy goes max
he alone will be almost a 9mil dollar increase
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
I will talk about DeJuan Blair no more forever
by jonestr on Jun 30, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brandong
sorry….but hillarious
"You're welcome friend
I love you."
- Tom "Dragline" inHawaii
by 92wastheyear on Jun 30, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
totally unintentional
like Penicillin
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
I will talk about DeJuan Blair no more forever
by jonestr on Jun 30, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have stopped pointing out typos
but found it very funny…….added to Tom’s penchant for asking about “shower presence”, I couldn’t pass it up
"You're welcome friend
I love you."
- Tom "Dragline" inHawaii
by 92wastheyear on Jun 30, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and he will go max
LaMarcus will probobly get ~10 million which is 4.2 mil more than he’ll make in ‘09-’10. We’re talking about ~13 mil/year increase for Brandon and LaMarcus. Then, if we re-sign Outlaw and/or Blake…
Also, Joel’s 7.5 mil is a player option, not a qualifying offer. Its conceivable he could turn down his player option, but I doubt he would.
by jksnake99 on Jun 30, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Joel's is a player option, then that makes a difference.
I just saw it listed as a qualifying offer, but PO or TO makes more sense.
As for how much Brandon can get, I’d like to hear from Storyteller. For some reason I didn’t think a player could jump from 5.5 to 13 mil in one year.
Assuming though that he can, that still leaves potentially 5.5 mil in cap space. There are still some creative ways to get that number bigger. Brandon could agree to structure his new deal in such away that he frees up a couple of additional mil in the summer of 2010. Or there is the possibility of having Joel not exercise his option, with the promise (or the understanding, if a team can’t “promise”) that they resign him using the exceptions to a deal close to what he would have made, sweetening it by adding on a few more years. It is not risk free, but a lot can happen between now and next summer. Oden could play so well that Portland could stand the loss of Pryzbilla. Or Joel might opt out if he finds his playing time reduced due to Greg’s improvement. Then again, Greg could show that he is going to need at least one more year before the team feels they can get by with an average backup center. In thatr case they don’t mess with losing Joel.
The point is that it is not set in stone that Portland will not have any salary options come next summer. And if it is not set in stone, then the whole argument that Portland HAS to do something this summer loses it’s legs.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 30, 2009 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
qualifying offers only apply to players coming off of rookie contracts, I believe.
by Cablinasian on Jun 30, 2009 8:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look, there's no feasible way that Portland will be under the salary cap next summer.
by AK1984 on Jun 30, 2009 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you say so.
But there is 17.5 mil in salary coming off the books next summer. Even with Aldridge and Roy getting new deals in the range people are throwing around here, that should still leave about $5 million.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 30, 2009 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
did you account for the cap
holds associated with us only having 8 players. If not that is an easy 5×.5mil that cuts your number in half. Also, players get that type of raise off of a rookie contract all the time. LBJ, Wade, Bosh all went from rookie contract to max salary. It is nothing new.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
I will talk about DeJuan Blair no more forever
by jonestr on Jun 30, 2009 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roster charges and Bayless, Batum, Rudy, and Oden will see their salary increase next year due to the escalating nature of rookie scale contracts.
by Cablinasian on Jun 30, 2009 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Turk reject 4 year $35 million offer
http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/60189/20090630/turkoglu_rejected_$35m_extension/
If this is true, I hope the Blazers don’t offer him a contract the Turk finds reasonable. SF is too important of position to sign a player that can’t play defense for $10 million per season. What about Artest now that the Rockets are imploding? Don’t we have the players to control Ron-Ron. He certainly would address or need for toughness. Plus, he probably wouldn’t cost us too much.
by dg77 on Jun 30, 2009 9:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
D Miles and another $9 million
This isn’t exactly the right place for this query, and I’ve been largely offline the last month or so, but I’m surprised all I read about is how the Blazers’ should be using their $10 million or so under the cap. What happened to D Miles? Isn’t this now a $9 million expiring contract, coming due in a year in which oodles of teams are trying precisely to lower their cap heading into the 2010 season? Am I missing something here? Isn’t this functionally equivalent to RLEC, and although about $4 mil. less, far more timely? $10 mil. under the cap, plus a $9 mil. expiring contract yields $19 mil. total in free agent plus trading value, which is half our total 2009-10 salary for existing players. This is massive. Why no attention to this? What am I missing?
by blazerwizard on Jun 30, 2009 10:17 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't work that way
Once a player is waived (Miles was) their contract cannot be traded.
"You're welcome friend
I love you."
- Tom "Dragline" inHawaii
by 92wastheyear on Jun 30, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hedo would be an abysmal, abysmal fit in Portland
Miller is at least worth discussing.
by jksnake99 on Jun 30, 2009 10:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You shouldn't stay up late drinking with AK.
It’s affecting your decision making progress.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 30, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hedo is an inefficient shooter, a turnover prone player, a player who needs the ball in his hands to be effective but isn't nearly as good with it as Roy
He’s a mediocre defender, he’ll be too expensive, he’s already 30 years old. Should I go on?
Miller will be much cheaper, won’t be looking for a long term deal, and he’s a better player than Turkoglu. He’s not my first choice certainly, but he’s at least worth discussing.
by jksnake99 on Jun 30, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I concur.
I also don’t like it that Hedo is so out of shape all the time. That could catch up to him in a hurry as he gets older.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 30, 2009 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The man eats pizza before games (like right before they take the court)
That’s the diet of a champion.
by ninjasocks on Jun 30, 2009 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I think I have the gist...
Inefficient shooter:
Granted that his seasons averages are up and down. You’ll have to accept that he’s a fairly reliable three point shooter though. A lot of the variation probably comes down to how he’s used. If you want him to take over the offense and find his own shot regularly then inconsistency is the price you pay.
The fact that LaMarcus Aldridge isn’t the most imposing player in term of attacking the paint and replicates Rashard Lewis strengthens your case. But having slashing/scoring options in Roy/Turkoglu/Bayless and a hopefully emerging post game from Oden/Aldridge could help Hedo’s overall numbers. You might have to wait a year or so for this to develop so I agree that this signing is a year or so earlier than I’d like.
I’ll concede this point to you. Will you agree that it could look good if we really have developed an all-around offensive repetoire this season or next?
Needs to carry the ball:
Sorry, I view this as a plus. It relieves the pressure on Brandon Roy. Force Roy to pass the ball and play to Aldridge’s tendencies to shoot from range. Can you say first round loss to Houston? Bringing in another guy who can bring the ball up, take players off the dribble as well as shoot from deep all with great length for the position… what’s not to like?
If you’re going with Bayless, far from stunting his growth, to me it gives him time to feel his way into the point guard position. Having your backcourt all threats to drive into the paint all the while looking to dump the ball inside to Oden or out to an open Aldridge sounds quite nice.
Mediocre Defender:
No worse than most. Underated by his detractors in my opinion. Again, I need to see the list of young small forwards with offensive potency and defensive prowess and no injury concerns that aren’t already locked up as franchise players. Is there a long list of available free agent candidates?
Age:
Sure, 30 isn’t a spring chicken. I understood that management was looking for experience. There’s a growing sense I’m getting that seems that fans overestimate the physical decline of players and the importance of PPG and FG%.
I saw a guy who was prepared to carry the Magic along with Howard in the playoffs when the massively overpaid Lewis would not. Oh, everyone remembers when he gets hot and hits those threes…
I frequently get the sense that my perceptions of how the Magic games played out are not shared by most.
by TheMadKiwi on Jul 1, 2009 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I, too, would be fairly disappointed with a signing of Andre Miller, but not visibly upset in any fashion.
On the other hand, though, a signing of Hedo Turkoglu — no matter the length and cost of his contract — would make me flat-out livid in anger.
by AK1984 on Jun 30, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Free Agents
Why is everyone in such a hurry to sign Free Agents this year. To be honest I don’t see any guys that are going to help us that much. I like Turkey & Miller but how much help are they going to be. Turkey will just delay Batum’s Development and cut into Martell ( Baring he stays healthy for once ) playing time.
Miller would be a good addition but he can’t shoot at all. His all around game play would be nice but again he’s not that great of a defender.
I personally think we should stand pat this year develop what we have. Bayless & Blake should be adequate for PG, Afterall Broy has the ball in the 4rth quarter anyway.
Question: What happened to Petteri anyway, He played well last summer and was the buzz before batum impressed everyone. Isn’t petteri 6’7" ?
by irishnick1980 on Jun 30, 2009 10:23 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Kopponen isn't even coming to summer camp this year
My gut tells me he will never be in a Blazer uniform. He just hasn’t made any significant progress since we obtained the rights to him.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Koponen had the lowest PER of any rotation player in the Italian League last year
He got limited minutes behind Earl Boykins. He’s a very long way from the NBA, and I highly doubt he’ll ever make it.
by jksnake99 on Jun 30, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
a resounding PASS on both please
I type this with a fair amount of helplessness in my heart in regards to how the next few weeks are going to unfold for our Blazers.
Turkoglu is on the decline, and tying up that much cap space on a player who hits open threes and doesn’t defend seems asinine. If he were an active defender and energy guy, I could see it working. He’s a 6’10" point forward with a penchant for jump shots. We already have a jump shooting PF in LMA, and last I checked there is only one basketball used in the game.
B Roy plays the point for Portland more so than Steve Blake does. The 1 in Nate’s system needs to be a quick on ball defender, methodical passer, and deadly 3pt shooter. If we could get John Paxson cerca 1992, he’d fit in perfectly. Andre Miller doesn’t do the 3, as has been illustrated above. He also is older than I am, which is a criteria by which he automatically fails as a prospect in my opinion. I Just can’t get excited about a durable mediocre point guard who can’t do the most important thing Nate will ask of him, that being knocking down the open three.
I am very unexcited about every player being discussed for acquisition. The only player I’ve been excited by was the talk of trading for Gerald Wallace at the trade deadline. Maybe I’m not subjective enough because I am a fan, or maybe I just can’t see the forest through the trees. I don’t want to settle for a has been mediocre point guard that is NOT an upgrade over Steve Blake. I do not want to settle for an over 30 small forward looking to cash in on his rise to NBA starter (never an allstar) fame by getting a last ditch 10 mil a year contract.
I am more enthused by the prospects of signing Brandon Bass or Antonio McDyess as a backup PF than I am about either of these potential acquisitions. I’d rather not waste B Roy’s prime on them.
Fire Mark Mason. He's a dork, and he projects that we are ALL dorks
Fire Brian Wheeler. Homers suck.
Trade Trout, or sign someone reliable to soak up his minutes.
....Now I'm done
by SuperDave on Jun 30, 2009 10:26 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Thorpe's comments (from the True hoop article)
Sources indicate that Portland — a team that cleared a little extra cap room on draft day — is leading the hunt, while another suitor could include the Raptors.
Thorpe says that if the Portland rumors are true, Nate McMillan should already be watching the Magic and planning to add a side pick-and-roll to the playbook with Turkoglu and Greg Oden.
“Dwight Howard was amazing at diving to the hoop on the play, running straight down the lane to make himself a threat to catch the ball at the hoop. Greg Oden will have to do that, and then if I were LaMarcus Aldridge, I’d spend the summer mastering the NBA 3, like Rashard Lewis — because when the small forward and the center are running this play , the help usually comes from the power forward who can be wide open in the corner”
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-41-166/The-Michael-Jordan-of-Turkey—in-Free-Agency.html
My take re: Turk has been that Nate would be reluctant to change the offense to incorporate Hedo’s ballhandling skills. But we’ve also been talking about how great it would be if a new PG could come in and feed the ball to Oden (etc) while he was on the move towards the basket. LMA also worked on his 3pt range last summer, and could be a factor from the far corner in the “side P&R” scenario that Thorpe mentioned.
It’s not enough to make me really want to take a flier on Turk, but he “could” conceivably mesh with the strengths of some of the Blazer’s current big men
by two4larue on Jun 30, 2009 10:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This makes me feel that Nate will not be the coach forever
Next year to the WCF or bust for him.
by Sonic Boom on Jun 30, 2009 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait...
This dude wants to turn LMA into a three point threat? I personally think he spends too much time too far from the basket as it is.
Now, as to how Aldridge would fit into that whole pick and roll with Hedo and Oden (hypothetically, of course) is he could sit at about 15 feet on the baseline. It doesn’t need to be a three, he just needs to be open.
Still, I don’t like any style of offense that drags Aldridge away from the hoop. The closer he is the more aggressive he is, and usually the more aggressive he is the better he is.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would much prefer LMA shoot open corner 3s than open long top-of-the-key twos
even though he’s much more effective when he stays near the hoop.
by jksnake99 on Jun 30, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, yeah, there's that.
3>2, and I’m getting sick of him popping 20 footers.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, the 22 foot jumper is the "lowest percentage" shot on the floor
besides the 40+ foot heave, of course
Thorpe didn’t go into this, but there’s no reason that LMA couldn’t be the screener on the pick and dive option, as well as Oden. But so far LMA seems to prefer the “pick and pop” (this is not a knock on LMA’s toughness, Karl Malone was a classic “pick and popper” with Stockton providing the feed)
And I don’t see why Brandon and Greg couldn’t run the side-angle P&R pretty well. As long as Roy would be willing to give the ball up, once in awhile…Blake will also run this play occasionally with Greg and Joel, but Steve isn’t much of a threat to take the ball all the way to the hole
by two4larue on Jun 30, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So it sounds like you agree with Thorpe.
In other words, we sign a guy that will require our rookie center to quickly add a new offensive facet to his game and get our PF to start taking longer jumpers, rather than playing closer to the basket like most here have been calling for for two years.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 30, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive
It’s not like Nate will abandon the play where LMA gets the ball on the left block, just because Hedo is hypothetically playing point forward. Heck, Turk could become the guy who feeds LMA in the post during that set
It’s all about the matchups. LMA would’ve killed Scola “down low” in the playoffs, if not for Yao’s help-side defense. I think Oden will get more of the low post “touches” as his game improves, and LMA will be the “Scola” getting the wide open looks from the elbow
You can’t have both Greg and LMA trying to post up simultaneously, that just clogs the paint and shortens the defensive rotations
by two4larue on Jun 30, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
side P&R is great but...
Why do we need Hedo to do that? I believe Hinrich or Kidd are capable of running that as well as (if not better than) Hedo.
Bringing in Hedo not only worsen the logjam at SF but doesn’t help our perimeter defense, which is supposed to be our weakest link.
Bringing in a new starting PG doesn’t create logjam at PG (b/c Blake is very tradable) and Hinrich/Batum or Kidd/Batum are gonna be a very good defensive combo.
by iverigma2 on Jun 30, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bringing in a new starting PG doesn’t create logjam at PG (b/c Blake is very tradable)
I don’t see Blake going anywhere if a FA (starting) PG is signed. Nate and KP love Blake, and Steve’s shoulder rehab will probably continue to affect his trade value until he returns to game action
For the purposes of a lopsided trade (Devin Harris!) Blake’s expiring 4 mil contract is definitely “in play”
by two4larue on Jun 30, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can someone
tell me what the Detroit championship model is? I’ve seen it used by national writers to refer to what the Blazers are/should aspire to. Is it where you dont have one superstar but a team of very good solid players? Do these people know who Brandon Roy is?
by BBG on Jun 30, 2009 10:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Detroit's model for its one championship
was to be lucky enough to play in a conference with few strong teams and then meet in the finals a team (Lakers) whose aging superstar power forward (Malone) was out with an injury and whose young superstar guard (Kobe) refused to pass the ball to its unstoppable superstar center (Shaq).
I think the Blazers can and will do much better.
by MiledAnimal on Jun 30, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My understanding of it is
Building a team with a true “team” concept, with one clear cut leader (Billups, Roy, even go back to Isiah Thomas) and a bunch of guys who are really good but not stars (Pistons: the Wallace’s, Rip Hamilton, Prince, etc., Blazers: Aldridge, Oden, Rudy, etc.).
By contrast, most title teams try to have two superstars (Jordan and Pippen, Shaq and Kobe/Wade, Magic and Kareem, etc.).
So it isn’t saying Roy isn’t a star, it’s saying he’s the only superstar on his team but he doesn’t have to carry them because the team as a whole is strong.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Turkoglu = Player Maker
If the Blazers get Turkoglu he will be our starting point forward. He and Roy will initiate the offense and be the playmakers. Fernandez can do the same. 3 players to rotate through 2 spots.
The third perimeter player will need to be able to hit open 3s, convert lobs on backdoor cuts, and defend the opposing team’s best perimeter offensive player (1-3); he doesn’t need to be a playmaker. Primary candidates = Webster and Batum, and to lesser extent Bayless.
Blake and Outlaw become even more expendable. I would have no trouble trading Bayless, either.
Bottom line = Turkoglu + tough/hustle backup 4 is all Blazers really need.
by Turnout on Jun 30, 2009 10:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Bottom line = Turkoglu + tough/hustle backup 4 is all Blazers really need
Fill the playmaking point guard position with a point forward, instead? If the Blazers are really interested in Hedo, that’s the only reason a Turk signing might make sense
Wheels said after the Rocket’s series that the Blazers needed a 3rd scoring option. (I was more of the opinion that they needed a starting PG upgrade and tougher backup PFs.) But I also thought earlier in the season that the Blazers needed another penetrator could create and get the ball to the bigs while they were on the move. The obvious postition for this uber-penetrator is PG. But a wing player who can drive and dish like Turk is another way of skinning the same proverbial cat.
But like storyteller said, the 5 year would commitment “scare me off” signing Hedo
by two4larue on Jun 30, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No to Turkoglu, Yes to Miller
Miller is more productive than Blake/Bayless and would be an upgrade at the point guard position. However, I’d much rather have Kidd, Rondo or Calderon than Miller.
by mmm! on Jun 30, 2009 10:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
And I'd rather be dating Olivia Wilde
but sometimes you have to settle. I hope my girlfriend doesn’t browse this site…
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
reading this must makes me depressed
If those are the options then the Blazers are going to miss their window.
by Sonic Boom on Jun 30, 2009 11:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You can only grasp the opportunities that are there.
I hope we can add another impact player, but even if we can’t, I think the team as it is will be good enough to win a title or three.
by MiledAnimal on Jun 30, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This Turkoglu situation reminds me too much of Posey after the Celtics won in '08
Posey parlayed his good performance in their championship run into an offer from New Orleans that was way above his real value. As Hollinger puts it:
Posey opted out of his contract and signed a four-year, $24 million deal with the Hornets. From New Orleans’ end, that seems to be an overreaction to his role in helping Boston to a title — consider that with almost exactly the same numbers a year earlier, the best Posey could do was two years for a portion of Boston’s midlevel. That’s probably about what his real value is.
Granted, Turkoglu is a much more talented player overall than Posey, but the comparison is still valid. Turkoglu’s falling production does not warrant paying him MORE money than he makes now. $7-8M per year is probably about right for him given his skill set and age and he has reportedly already turned down an offer from Orlando that was slightly above that range (4 years, $35M). Anything more would be hugely overpaying, especially when you consider that it kills our cap flexibility for the foreseeable future.
by MDBlazerfan on Jun 30, 2009 11:19 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Opting-out was probably not a bad move anyway.
It seems likely he will land a new contract somewhere for at least the same money at a couple more years.
by MiledAnimal on Jun 30, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This would be a stupid move by kp
and id loose all my trust in him
Oden...Aldridge...Roy.....THE REAL BIG THREE
by CroRupt on Jun 30, 2009 11:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well spoken Dave!
I completely agree with Dave on both of these 2 players.(Turk and Miller). My reasoning for agreeing with Dave are:
(A.) They wont get us a Championship.
(B.) There are better players available. (Devin Harris, Tayshaun Prince)
(C.) Turk cost to much $.
(D.) Miller cant hit a 3 to save his soul.
(E.)Both are getting older and we need youthful vet talent(a Devin Harris type- DH is only 26, while Andre is 33 years old.)
(F.)And talking age, at 29 years old for Turk, I personally would rather have Tayshaun Prince at 29years old.
I dont know if we can or cant land Devin or Prince, but they are the types we need to get us up to the hump but not necessarily over it. I love to think of the Blazers winning it all, but this is a puzzle that takes every piece to be in place to achieve the bigger picture. Who knows whats gonna happen. Imagine us with Harris, Prince and Milsap-
C- Oden and Joel
PF- Aldridge and Milsap
PG- Harris and (Blake or Bayless)*
SG- Roy and Rudy
SF- Prince and (Batum or Webster or Outlaw)*
( )* = assuming some combo of these 4 players will be gone.
I like that lineup but it probably wont happen. Any thoughts Blazers Faithful?
by cavejunctionblazer on Jun 30, 2009 12:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Did I miss something?
When did Prince and Harris become available? Pretty sure the only way the Nets part with Harris is if they get a star in return, so we’d have to give up Roy, or maybe Alridge. And as for Prince, I have NEVER heard him in any trade rumors.
Don’t say you want someone we could possibly get because you want someone we couldn’t possibly get.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some of the latest out of
NJ is that Harris can be had for a good pg on a rookie contract if Bobby Simmons is included in the deal.
Prince was just in the Boston rumors and all Pistons outside of Stuckey have been open to trade since last off season.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
I will talk about DeJuan Blair no more forever
by jonestr on Jun 30, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
The Combo of Blake/Bayless/Batum/Webster/Outlaw could bring us back Harris, Prince and Millsap?
Are you kidding me?
Rudy & Nic
by k04a on Jun 30, 2009 12:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather do nothing
than sign either of those two. I don’t think either of them help us win more games. We won 54 games with Blake, Hinrich (SuperBlake) would add at least 3 wins, and the improvement of Nic, Rudy, Jerryd and Greg, as well as the return of Martell, will be enough improvement
"I been ridin' the midnight train, got ice water in my veins." -Bob Dylan
"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice
by koyote on Jun 30, 2009 12:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree on the Hinrich thing
If we can just swing a deal for Kirk (I’d assume it would involve Outlaw and another player like Blake), then either sign or trade for a decent but inexpensive backup PF I’d call the postseason a major success.
PG- Hinrich, Bayless
SG- Roy, Rudy
SF- Webster, Batum
PF- Aldridge, Gooden/Wilcox/Bass/etc.
C- Oden, Przybilla
I don’t see any of the guys we drafted sniffing the rotation this year assuming we get a backup PF this offseason.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A couple of other names
Due to the uncertainty of Webster’s foot injury, I’d like to see a little more depth at the SF position, and veteran experience added, if possible. Bruce Bowen would be a nice guy to have as a wing defender for the playoffs (but if Batum/Martell were healthy Bowen’s presense wouldn’t block their development during the regular season)
For the backup PF/C position I’d like to see if Indy will part with Jeff Foster, now that they have Hansbrough to go along with Murphy
Toughness and physicality, veterans with playoff experience. That’s what will help the youngsters win playoff series
by two4larue on Jun 30, 2009 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hinrich's productivity is even worse than Turkoglu's
According to WP48, in the last two seasons Hinrich has been a slightly-below-average to average NBA Player, while Blake has been average to above-average. So, replacing Blake with Hinrich is not going to net in more wins, unless you assume that Hinrich would suddenly increase his production – which is hard to do since historically a players performance levels out after a few years in the league.
by mmm! on Jun 30, 2009 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
defense is very poorly measured by WP48, or pretty much any other publically available stat
Hinrich is excellent at it, Blake is not.
Furthermore, in last year’s playoffs, Hinrich played like the tremendous player he was during the 2006-2007 season, rather than the injury prone, out-of-position player he was during the past two seasons.
by jksnake99 on Jun 30, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
jfsnake99 your observations are correct
Other than tracking steals and blocked shots, an individual players defense cannot be objectively measured by the stats that we currently maintain. Also, Hinrich indeed was a better player in 2006-07, but his productivity trajectory seems plateauing right now, i.e.
2005-06 = 0.136 (WP48) & 8.4 wins produced
2006-07 = 0.167 & 9.9 wins
2007-08 = 0.092 & 1.4 wins
2008-09 = 0.098 & 1.5 wins
So it would be wishful, but probable, to think that he could revert to being a productive player as he gets older.
by mmm! on Jun 30, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think part of it is that he's dealt with big changes in his role due to Derrick Rose and coaching changes
Given a consistent role where he’d fit well and starter minutes, I think there’s a good chance he could get back to where he was. I don’t think his decline was due to loss of skill but rather the situation around him.
by jksnake99 on Jun 30, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
with Hinrich, you would be taking a bit of a gamble since he was so much better in '06-'07 than '07-'08
but he played well enough towards the end of ‘08-’09 that its a gamble I’d be willing to take.
by jksnake99 on Jun 30, 2009 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiinriiiiiiiiiiiiiich
by rip_city_swagger on Jun 30, 2009 12:26 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
The i's have it
Without you out there, we're nowhere here
by 22baylor on Jun 30, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm like Brewster from Brewster's Millions
NONE OF THE ABOVE
Fire Mark Mason. He's a dork, and he projects that we are ALL dorks
Fire Brian Wheeler. Homers suck.
Trade Trout, or sign someone reliable to soak up his minutes.
....Now I'm done
by SuperDave on Jun 30, 2009 12:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Blake looks good by comparison
This is the problem with trying to upgrade the PG position: Those that are really worth getting, aren’t available. Those that are available, are past their prime.
Blake is a very solid PG in the mold of Steve Kerr or even Derek Fisher: guys who know their job, will defer to the stars on the team, and can hit an open three.
People forget that Blake is still pretty young and I see him having plenty of room to improve. He’s tough and ultra-competitive.
If you add a guy like Heinrich as a complimentary PG then I think you’ve done well. Also very intrigued by Paddy Mills who many thought would go late 1st round. He could be the quick drive and dish type PG that the team also needs.
Jury is still out on Bayless…..trade bait.
by byodensbeard on Jun 30, 2009 1:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
defense
Neither Turkoglu nor Miller upgrade the Blazers’ defense.
I would say one absolute must for any player they acquire is that player improves the Blazers’ defense.
Thus, you can ignore all other plusses and minuses and automatically disqualify either of those players from consideration.
That criterion, by the way, does leave the door open to acquire someone like Hinrich, which everyone agrees is a defensive upgrade over Blake.
by lsjogren on Jun 30, 2009 1:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Excellent point!
I’m with you… Defence is the key to all acquirements we should do.
Rudy & Nic
by k04a on Jul 1, 2009 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“This dude wants to turn LMA into a three point threat? I personally think he spends too much time too far from the basket as it is.”
I agree LA nees to take it to the rim more, but if he can show a good percentage at the 3 point range there’s no reason he shouldn’t do both.
In fact, that would make him a consummate shoooter. Someone who can make midrange jumpers (something that Aldridge excels at now), as well as taking it to the rim, AND taking 3 point shots. Plus a decent defender and a good rebounder.
That would put him smack dab in the middle of all star territory.
by lsjogren on Jun 30, 2009 2:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
We still have close to the youngest roster in the league.
I say let them mature, learn on the job and get their experience in the playoffs the hard way, by doing it on their own. They did learn the hard way how physical Houston was and thereby how physical all of the playoffs are. They got better as the playoffs went along.
Oden is just 21 years old; LMA will 24 in July: Bayless will only be 21 in August (Claver is only 10 days younger than Jerryd); Brandon will be 25 in July; Mills is one day younger than Jerryd; Batum will not even be 21 until Dec; Cunningham and Pendergraph are both 22 and our grizzled veterans, Steve Blake is 29 and Przybilla only reaches 30 years of age in October. ( I previously posted these on the end of another thread recently.)
Please be patient people. We have great young guys who can and I predict will be championship players. Just give them time to mature a little and improve a little. They just had their first taste of the playoffs. They know what is needed. They will do it.
KP once said that his addition to this team might be a player no one had thought of. He indicated then that we do not need another All Star but just a role player with experience in the playoffs and a good locker room guy.
Stu Inman: a soft-spoken, witty and brilliant basketball guy -- who had so much to do with Portland's only championship. He believed that you won with not just great players, but with great people. (D Jaynes 2-2-07 Portland Tribune)
by OrygunRod on Jun 30, 2009 2:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Brandon will be 25 in July
I think this is the important number. Roy’s knees may or may not last “2-3 more years” until all the kids are ready to be contributers to a championship team (I’m not saying Brandon will be crippled and out of the league, just potentially less-effective due to wear and tear)
Brandon, Nate and Paul Allen have said they’re ready to win now. What Blazer fans think re: “standing pat and keep letting the cake bake” is a faint chorus when compared to those 3
by two4larue on Jun 30, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He could also be more effective
given that he is coming into his physical prime, also his game is not based on ungodly athleticism.
I would be really surprised to see any fall off in his game over the next 2-3 years.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
I will talk about DeJuan Blair no more forever
by jonestr on Jun 30, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the point is
it’s time to stop adding youth and start bringing in veterans, especially while the cap-space is available. Don’t “gamble” on Roy at age 28-30 still being as effective as Brandon at ages 25-27 when it’s not necessary
by two4larue on Jun 30, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but just adding veterans is a gamble as well
as they can tie up cap space in the future.
I am not for adding a one and done, but adding a second or third year player that still has some upside and has shown something, cough Sessions cough, is in my opinion, the way the Blazers can have their cake and eat it too.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
I will talk about DeJuan Blair no more forever
by jonestr on Jun 30, 2009 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bucks are letting Villanueva go
and traded RJ in part so that they could have the money to resign Sessions. It will be hard to pry him away.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can offer him
5 at 32mil, which is the max we can offer him, but my point is that adding vets who may not be contributing much in 2-3years may not be ideal as well.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
I will talk about DeJuan Blair no more forever
by jonestr on Jun 30, 2009 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are times that I'm bowled over by the glass half empty mind set that shows up here.
Where does this Brandon has two , three years at the most stuff come from? How many games did he miss this season? Can we lighten up on the negativity here. There isn’t a player in the league that can’t get hit with a career ending injury. That doesn’t mean it will happen to every player. There is no good reason to believe that Brandon Roy’s game will be on the downswing in another couple of years.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 30, 2009 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
why "waste" the next 2 years of Brandon's career on further development of young players?
Clearly, some Blazer fans are on a “different wave-length” than Roy, Nate and Paul Allen
I guess it will take KP bringing in a few veterans to get all of Blazersedge back on the same page
(like that’s ever gonna happen…)
by two4larue on Jun 30, 2009 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see it as a waste.
This is the glass half empty part. The belief that if Portland doesn’t win a championship every year they are a failure.
A successful season, for me at least, is one where the team has a chance to make it at least to the conference finals. That’s a championship level team. A team that has a chance at going all the way. Winning a title is more than having the most talent or even being the “best” team in the league by winning the most games. I believe the Cav’s were the best team this year in terms of victories and I don’t see any trophy in their display case. Just as Portland ran into a team we did not matchup well with, the Cavs came up against a Magic team that was able to exploit certain advantages. Play the series again right now and it is entirely possible the Cavs win. I believe the same is true with Portland. Match them up against Houston (w’/ a healthy Yao) and I will put my money on the Blazers taking that series.
As a fan I am going to enjoy watching Brandon Roy play basketball, whether it is with a 32 win team, a 54 win team or a 60 win NBA title winning team. None of it is a waste. As for believing that we can no longer “wait” on the development of our young team – I ask “Why not?” Why such impatience? You can’t find enjoyment and satisfaction in watching a team grow before your eyes? Going from 21 to 32 to 41 to 54 wins. That isn’t just steady improvement. That is nearly spectacular. And there is no reason to think it impossible that Portland doesn’t continue that level of growth. 60 wins next season is within the realm of possible for this team as it is built right now.
I don’t see any waste. All I see is a wonderful example of what can happen when you combine the vision of assembling a group of guys with the right mindset and character, with hard work and a commitment to building a team based on the fundementals of good basketball, with a little luck and a bit of genius thrown in. Blazer fans are being treated to something wonderful. I suggest we enjoy what we have, rather than get greedy for what might be.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jul 1, 2009 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
timg56
How’d you get your post to come out green? Impressive.
by lsjogren on Jun 30, 2009 2:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
posts become green if they get 5 or more "recs"
Tim’s “just give this team time” position is a pretty popular one around here.
by jksnake99 on Jun 30, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was a bit suprised.
The more vocal crowd seems to feel POrtland lacks the horses to get “over the hump”. Which tends to make me feel that I’m in the minority.
I don’t think about getting over the hump when I know we have guys that are just going to drill right through the hill to the other side. Getting over the hump is for the rest of the league. We’ll be on the other side waiting for them.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jun 30, 2009 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think most BEdgers agree with you
Its just there are a few folks like myself that are very vocal in expressing the view that Portland doesn’t have enough talent.
by jksnake99 on Jun 30, 2009 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah,
I don’t think we have enough talent. It’s probably not reasonable to expect all our young talent to pan out the way we hope.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 30, 2009 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We still love you though.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Jul 1, 2009 7:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
blazers
I hope the Blazers’ staff reads these blogs. I don’t have much insight into these issues but there are clearly people that do.
Reading some of the “why it is NOT a good idea to acquire so and so” posts is a good antidote to falling in love with players you might be thinking about acquiring.
by lsjogren on Jun 30, 2009 2:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I have feeling...
…that KP already is aware of everything that we’ve pointed out.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I certainly hope so...
or he’s not earning his salary
by The Arkitect on Jun 30, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
expectations
Probably the only way KP can meet expectations at this point is finding some undiscovered second coming of Michael Jordan living in a mud hut in Kazakhstan.
by lsjogren on Jun 30, 2009 2:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Point Well Taken
Dave,
I appreciate your overall point. I’ve always liked the tone here and wouldn’t want to be one to disrupt it. Perhaps saying “how bout watching some Magic games” was a little harsh. My point was that many people are missing the forest for the trees in my opinion by focusing on things like advanced metrics.
However, I can’t take back what I said about the myth being perpetuated here that Hedo is a declining player. I felt like it’s been said so many times that some people are just beginning to reflexively stipulate that its true, when in fact it’s not true. I won’t entirely restate my point because I think I already stated it pretty clearly. But, If you graph his stats from year to year, he is most definitely on a general upward trend. He appears to me to be one of the rare players where something clicks for them, and they actually become a much better player in their later years.
Perhaps some of my vigor can be attributed to the fact that I seem to be virtually the ONLY person vociferously advocating for Hedo as a Blazer. :) But I guess that means I get all the glory if he comes here nad takes us to the next level.
Thanks for the comments.
by ajinoregon on Jun 30, 2009 2:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
His outstanding '07-'08 career season was sandwiched by two very mediocre (advanced) statistical seasons in '06-'07 and '08-'09
So maybe “declining” isn’t quite right, but I see it as highly unlikely he’d play like he did in ‘07-’08 again, especially on a team where he wouldn’t be a very good fit.
by jksnake99 on Jun 30, 2009 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isnt it also a Hollinger observation
that players tend to have a last gasp late in their careers and have precipitous decline?
I remember this from a basketball prospectus I picked up a couple of years ago, and perhaps that is what fuels the idea Hedo is more likely to decline than he is increase production.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
I will talk about DeJuan Blair no more forever
by jonestr on Jun 30, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the WP48 info. on Hedo Turkoglu
2005-06 = 0.116 WP48 & 6.3 Wins produced
2006-07 = 0.060 & 3.8 wins
2007-08 = 0.157 & 9.9 wins
2008-09 = 0.101 & 5.9 wins
So it seems that Hedo’s performance fluctuates yearly. The good thing here is if you consider this to be a trend (which would be a silly way to look at things since there is no corelation here) then he would again be above average for 2009-10 :-).
by mmm! on Jun 30, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neither Hedo or Miller may not be good for Greg and LMA
Their offenses do not appear to go from inside out in either case, based upon statistical analysis and broadcast observations. A significant contrast to Portland.
It was said several times during the playoffs that the Orlando offense without Jameer Nelson had changed with Hedo running the point so that Howard was not given many touches and the shots were mostly outside in. In charting the FGA by Howard before and after Nelson’s injury there is a small reduction (about 8% in playoffs) but watching the playoff games seemed to support this observation that Howard is ignored in many of the plays and gets a big portion of his shots on offensive rebounds. The split of FGA between guards and bigs in Orlando was 24% bigs and 32% guards (with wings getting the other 43%).
As far as Miller is concerned his bigs are also not as big part of his offense. The bigs in Philly get 24% of the FGA while the guards get 61%. Portland had 33% bigs to 18% guards. Some other comparisons are Utah with 36% bigs and 31% guards, Denver had 27% bigs and 42% guards and New Orleans had 33% bigs and 23% guards. You can argue that Dalembert, Speights, Brand, Evans and Ratliff are not worthy of more shots but is it a difference in the point guards as well?
by lee3022 on Jun 30, 2009 8:40 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
wish kp reads all this
or casey holdah so he can spread the word around blazer land
Oden...Aldridge...Roy.....THE REAL BIG THREE
by CroRupt on Jun 30, 2009 8:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
MILLER TIME
Can Portland get him for a reasonable price? cheea!
Can he supply toughness? yah
Can he add consistency? yessir.
Does he rebound well for a point guard? yup
Can he penetrate? yes
Can Rudy, Roy, Blake, and Webster make up for his poopy 3pt shooting? affirmative
IMO what AM adds to this roster far outweighs any personal shortcomings he may have.
PRO-HEDO just equals no faith in Martell or Nic continuing tp improve. I can say for certain that i’m not on that boat.
Roy Tribute
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
by Net Ranger on Jun 30, 2009 8:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Howard is ignored in many of the plays and gets a big portion of his shots on offensive rebounds
Which is fine with Oden, by all means spread the defense out and let Greg out-board the opposing center and get his points on put-backs, dunks and FTs. That’s what he does best. Dumping the ball into Greg and watching him try to get off a flat hook shot isn’t necessarily a high-percentage opportunity
What would be even better would be to have a guy who can penetrate, make the defense start rotating and then feed the big man rumbling down the lane towards the hoop. That’s a recipe for foul trouble on the opposing players and penalty FTs for Greg and Joel
by two4larue on Jun 30, 2009 9:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I guess I feel this way...
I think Portland basically has all the parts they need. They need a little time, some veteran leadership, and probably one more starter level player to make this work now versus 2-3 years from now. It sounds like that’s the piece they’re looking for now…
Problem is – I don’t like any of the options out there!! The options are simple, you either upgrade the starting SF spot, upgrade the starting PG spot, or if neither of those is available – you stand pat and wait for the option you want to become available.
So got me thinking…who would qualify as upgrades for those positions – regardless of whether they’re attainable or not? Skies the limit – everyone is available. Here’s what I came up with, ranked in order and by position:
SF
LeBron James – would cost more than Roy to obtain
Paul Pierce – would cost Roy to obtain
Carmelo Anthony – would cost Roy to obtain
Josh Smith – not a good fit/would cost Aldridge to obtain
Shane Battier – could be a great fit, not sure of cost
Hedo Turkoglu – good fit depending on the money, currently is asking for more than his worth to Blazers
PG
Chris Paul – would probably cost Roy unless they’re shedding salary
Deron Williams – would cost Roy
Rajon Rondo – probably no interest from Boston
Devin Harris – nice piece, but expensive to get – maybe for LMA?
Chauncey Billups – no way Denver trades him to Portland
Tony Parker – no way SA gives up on one of their final title shots
Steve Nash – probably would take more to obtain than he’s worth
Jose Calderon – not sure of the going price – for anyone less than the big 3 would be great
Derrick Rose – no way Chicago trades him
Jason Kidd – depending on the money this could be solid
Kirk Hinrich – depending on the role players given up this could work, but moderate improvement
Andre Miller – not a great fit and probably too costly for return
Mo Williams – not going to be traded
Ramon Sessions – not going to be traded
Mike Conley – not really an upgrade
PG seems the obvious place to upgrade, but the move we need is probably a trade and may cost us a significant piece or two. The way to improve to championship level may be to trade away Oden or Aldridge for the PG we need and fill their holes through FA.
What are your thoughts? I think KP might have to sit on what he’s got or wait for a better player to become more available.
by mwalter on Jun 30, 2009 9:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
ESPN just "reported" (if you can call it that)
that right now Hedo most likely destination is Portland. I bet if we do sign him the biggest deal we offer is 4 years, 32 million. I also doubt any other club would offer him close to that much, so we could bring it down another couple million.
Gear up guys, it looks very likely that Turkoglu will be a Blazer in the next couple of weeks. Look at it this way, worst case scenario is we have Hedo Turkoglu’s expiring contract as a trading chip in 2013 when we are cash strapped due to Roy, Aldridge, and Oden all demanding pay raises after completing a three-peat.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 9:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
ouch. too bad
Roy Tribute
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
by Net Ranger on Jun 30, 2009 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look at it this way, worst case scenario
is that Rudy or Batum will have to be traded, due to a logjam at the 2-3
Let’s assume Outlaw is already gone
there’s no way to divvy up 96 minutes for Roy, Rudy, Turk, Batum and Webster
Trade Martell, you say? Well think of it this way. You’re a GM and another team offers you a player who missed the season with a broken foot and he’s got 4 years remaining on his contract. Deal, or no deal?
Ummm…
So who’s next? Not Brandon. Not the newly-signed Hedo. Who’s got the most trade vaule to upgrade the PG position (assuming KP is even aware of that weakness?)
Rudy, or NIc
This is where the road leads, when you don’t pull the trigger in February and use the RLEC
by two4larue on Jun 30, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What would happen:
Batum is out of the rotation. Plain and simple. He’d probably get 5 minutes a game as a defensive specialist. But the reason for that would be both Webster and Turkoglu are better right now. Batum is probably three years from being in the start of his prime.
Signing Hedo would probably also limit Webster’s minutes, and Hedo would probably not play as many as he did in Orlando. But Rudy really wouldn’t be affected I don’t think. He’ll still get his 25 minutes a night.
The reason Hedo would limit Webster and Batum’s minutes is he’s better than them. Why is it bad thing that we are getting someone better than our current cast?
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ESPN is not the smartest GM in the league
and KP more often does what nobody saw coming. So I think that is good news because it means it is not happening.
Some folks are forgetting the upside down trade power that makes Portland able to consider many veterans available as well as FA. We get a better player for our money using that method (at least we can spend more).
by lee3022 on Jun 30, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO WAY NO HOW!
COMCAST SUCKS!!
"Let's win the playoffs!!!!!"- Rudy Fernandez
by shamman on Jun 30, 2009 9:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
IF HEDO COMES TO TOWN WE ARE GOING DOWN
Hedo moves us backwards. He plays no defence, needs the ball in his hands on offence, and will command big $.
COMCAST SUCKS!!
"Let's win the playoffs!!!!!"- Rudy Fernandez
by shamman on Jun 30, 2009 9:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh come on.
You guys will be singing his praises in a month if he signs with us and you know it.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 9:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I simply have more faith in Batum/Webster
than i do Blake/Bayless at their respective positions. Tis all. If PDX signs Hedo, i hope i’m sooooo wrong.
Roy Tribute
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
by Net Ranger on Jun 30, 2009 10:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Buckle up:
It’s projection time:
1- If we DO sign Hedo, it won’t be for $10 million a year. I say it’s for either 4 years, 32 million or 3 years, 26 million (Hedo possibly takes a shorter contract to become a free agent earlier).
2- Assuming we sign Hedo, it will basically use the rest of our cap space. However, we would still wield our Mid Level Exception, which I can only assume would be used on a backup power forward. There are four or five good ones out there, but for simplicity’s sake let’s just say we get Brandon Bass.
3- Though signing Hedo makes us better (trust me, I’m right almost half the time), it A) clutters the small forward position and B) still leaves us sans a PG upgrade. Thus, we trade Travis Outlaw and Steve Blake to the Chicago Bulls for Kirk Hinrich and a lottery protected 1st rounder in 2010. And yes, this trade works financially. Even if it didn’t, we’d just pitch in that Ike Diogu trade exception.
Lineup-
PG- Hinrich, Bayless
SG- Roy, Rudy
SF- Turkoglu, Webster, Batum
PF- Aldridge, Bass
C – Oden, Przybilla
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And by the way...
Yes, I’m crazy. And no, this doesn’t prove it. But if all this does happen, I’m buying a lottery ticket.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do we still get the mid level?
Are you sure about that?
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 30, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have to be over the cap
So we would have to do the Kirk Hinrich trade first, which puts us over the cap.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and if for some reason that doesn't work
We have roughly $4 million in trade exceptions, so instead of using the MLE we just do a sign and trade using those.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, after further research
No, we don’t have a MLE, so we’d have to use the trade exceptions. Should still be able to get a backup PF for those in a sign and trade.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the Hinrich deal may be dead
Bucher is reporting the Pistons are going hard after Ben Gordon. The Bulls will keep Kirk if that happens
Though signing Hedo makes us better … it … clutters the small forward position
Not only the SF position, but the SG position as well. The coming of the Turk could spell doom for Rudy or Batum (Martell’s not going anywhere until he can show other GMs that he’s healthy)
by two4larue on Jun 30, 2009 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How does The Big Turkey clutter the SG position?
He’s 6’10", if anything he’d play PF in a small ball lineup, but never SG. He wouldn’t hinder Rudy at all because Hedo would start and Rudy would be second unit. They’d only share like 5-10 minutes of floor time at the most.
It would be detrimental to Batum’s playing time in the short run, but Batum could also learn a lot about offense from Hedo and be completely ready to step in when Hedo leaves.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want Batum to be like Hedo.
Hedo has nothing to teach Batum. Anything he could, Roy can already teach. Hedo is a big body that plays like hes 4 inches shorter.
I want Batum to play to his size and length and focus on defense.
by Bskey on Jun 30, 2009 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But learning some offense couldn't hurt
I mean, except for being a graceful finisher Batum has basically no offensive game yet. No way Hedo doesn’t help out in that area.
by GMan83201 on Jun 30, 2009 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He played SG a lot in Orlando.
Sometimes he played PG next to Lee in the back court. He about as versatile as they come and a much better ball handler than Rudy even at 6-10.
Not my favorite option, but he would certainly open up a plethora of crazy lineups for Portland.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 30, 2009 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sign and Trade Hedo
I really don’t know much about this, but is it possible to sign and trade Hedo to someone else for a PG not on the radar? Does that even make sense?
by karsikko on Jul 1, 2009 2:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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