Devin Harris and the BSEC (updated with poll)
by two4larue on Jun 29, 2009 4:47 PM PDT
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PrintEveryone remembers the RLEC, right?
Well, I was listening to Ian Thompson being interviewed by Vance and Jaynes on 95.5 this afternoon and he said something that caught my attention. Thompson said that KP may be thinking about acquiring a large expiring contract as part of a lopsided trade. (Thompson called it "trading into their cap-space")
Say what?!
I think what he was getting at is, it would be a good idea to have "another RLEC" in hand next spring when the rest of the GMs are fishing for cap relief heading into the 2010 FA period
So, what does this have to do with NJ and Devin Harris?
As we've been speculating, the Nets appear to be in massive rebuilding and salary dump mode. Reports persist that they are shopping Harris and his LTC. And we all know that KP has been interested in Devin for awhile.
But what's this about a BSEC, you ask?
Bobby Simmons is owed a whopping 11,242,667 this year. But this contract is EXPIRING next spring.
Now, I know what you're thinking ('cause I thought it, too) 19 mil is a lot of scratch for a great PG and an overpaid SF that Portland doesn't really need. But when you consider the potential benefit of having the "BSEC" down the road? "Everything becomes clear"
OK, I've had some time to read the responses, and here's my "update"
Portland’s cap-space could be used to make that 19 mil a little more "reachable". Since the Blazer’s will be under the cap in a few days, that means they only have to send 11-12 mil to NJ to take back the 19 mil of Harris and Simmon’s combined salaries (and I think this would also create another trade exception)
Outlaw and Blake and Przybilla's combined salaries would easily take care of that amount, but NJ probably won’t want to deal with Joel’s 7.4 mil player option for 2011 (but you never know, he might opt out and they’d get the salary savings, anyway. But since they’ve already got Lopez, I’ll keep just Przy in PDX where he belongs)
So, here’s the proposal:
Capspace 8,000,000
Blake 4,000,000
Outlaw 3,600,000
Bayless 2,143,080
That brings the total to: 17,743,080
Harris plus Simmons = 19,642,667
The difference is 1,899,587
Now, I could plug Rudy’s 1,165,320 into that deal and get pretty close. But I’m not going to do that! It would be ‘way too easy, and I’d like to play some hardball with Thorn and show off some more of my “out of the box” thinking ;^)
Does everyone remember the trade exception that KP got for in the Diogu/Ruffin trade? Well, “what if” Portland used that TE in a completely seperate deal and acquired a player (we’ll call him “X”) and that player just happened to have a 2-3 mi/year contract? What do the rules say about KP putting this newly acquired “player X” into the above “equation” to bring Portland’s total closer to 20 mil? It may take a little longer to get the Harris-Simmons deal consummated, but then the Blazer’s bench wouldn’t be completely gutted in the process.
So there’s the proposal: Outlaw, Blake, Bayless, player X and all the capspace for Harris and Simmons.
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I like it depending on what we have to give up in the trade.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.—Dune
I might
be more interested in the BSEC than Harris, show me a deal that brings BSEC to town and may be digging it. :)
by The Natural ala Mode on Jun 29, 2009 5:14 PM PDT reply actions
YES!
Harris has been my target since Roy: year 1.
I’d give up anyone but Roy, LMA, Oden and Batum.
"Male sperm swim harder than female sperm."
that'd be awesome
but I’m betting that they’d want at least either LMA or Batum involved if they decided to trade Harris.
"Smile! You're on a poster!!" - Mike Rice
Hard to reach that figure
One of the problems with having younger players is that the salaries don’t match up too well:
NJ would likely want Bayless in any deal involving Harris, so:
Bayless
Outlaw
Pryz
Webster
Could get this done, allowing Portland to accept the lopsided deal after 7/1.
This solidifies the PG spot while creating a hole at SF that could be filled by Matt Barnes as a UFA.
douglast and I had come up with some offers:
in an earlier thread:
Yeah, I saw those
But I wanted to start a new fanpost to get the BSEC concept out in the open
The thing that you and douglast are over looking is…Portland’s capspace. Since the Blazer’s will be under the cap in a few days, that means they only have to send 11-12 mil to NJ to take back the 19 mil of Harris and Simmon’s combined salaries
Outlaw and Blake and Przybilla combined salaries would easily take care of that amount, but NJ probably won’t want to deal with Joel’s 7.4 mil player option for 2011 (but you never know, he might opt out and they’d get the salary savings, anyway. but they’ve already got Lopez so we’ll keep Przy in PDX where he belongs) So here’s the “longhand” way to do it
Capspace 8,000,000
Blake 4,000,000
Outlaw 3,600,000
Bayless 2,143,080
That brings the total to: 17,743,080
Harris plus Simmons = 19,642,667
The difference is 1,899,587
Now, I could plug Rudy’s 1,165,320 into that deal and get pretty close. But I’m not going to do that! It would be ‘way too easy, and I’d like to play some hardball with Thorn and show off some more of my “out of the box” thinking ;^)
Does everyone remember the trade exception that KP got for in the Diogu/Ruffin trade? Well, “what if” KP used that TE in a completely seperate deal and acquired a player (we’ll call him “X”) and that player just happened to have a 2-3 mi/year contract? What do the rules say about KP putting this newly acquired “player X” into the above “equation” to bring Portland’s total closer to 20 mil? It may take a little longer to get the Harris-Simmons deal consummated, but then the Blazer’s bench wouldn’t be completely gutted in the process.
So there’s the proposal: Outlaw, Blake, Bayless, player X and all the capspace for Harris and Simmons.
How do you like me, now?
well... all of our deals are using capspace
douglast’s deal is Joel + Outlaw + Bayless + Rudy
my deal is Outlaw + Bayless + Rudy + LaFrentz (S&T)
or Joel + Outlaw + Bayless
all of those deal leave 5~8 millions difference to be filled with our capspace.
Any deal that includes Joel Przybilla
they wouldn’t agree to. Which is fine, because that’s not something we want to do anyway. If we take back all that money we shouldn’t need to include Rudy in the trade. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. Simmons contract is a bad one, and he’s not a good player either. Blake, Bayless, Outlaw and add a couple of Pender/Claver/Freeland/Koponen/Cunningham/future draft picks.
also to be clear...
I didn’t mean to question why this topic need another fanpost. That’s perfectly fine with me. I threw those links under your post just to join this latest conversation.
not a problem
I thought the Ian Thompson revelation needed it’s own fanpost. Props to you for mentioning Simmons yesterday, otherwise I’d never have considered this BSEC idea
It would be surprising if NJ and PDX could work this out
NJ would arguably be trading their two best assets… a 09-10 expiring and Devin Harris (which has a very reasonable contract). But, if the Blazers are willing to part with enough, I suppose anything is possible.
Could the same deal be in the works for
Tyrus Thomas and Hinrich?
why?
way too much to give up for that combo. I’d be ok with getting Tyrus and Hinrich, but I’m not going to send out Bayless and Rudy to do it. TT isn’t going to be happy playing 15mpg as a backup, especially since he’s entering his final year on his rookie contract.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
I love Harris
but we would have to give up way too much to get him and the BSEC. I don’t think that this team is at the point where we need to make a huge trade taking our team in an entirely different direction. I would be all for getting Harris, but not at the expense of changing the whole makeup of our team. If we can get Harris in a lopsided trade then I say go for it, but other than that lets go after Hinrich or J-Kidd
"Brandon, a 3-pointer out front... HIT IT!!! YES HE DID!!! OHHHHH YEAAA!"
by oregonduck4life on Jun 29, 2009 6:32 PM PDT reply actions
I feel like Jersey must be counting down the minutes until "the BSEC" is exprired.
Probably going to hold onto that cheese for the great 2010 LeBron sweepstakes.
"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."
but the rumor is that they want a team to take on Simmons’ contract for cap space, to save the eleven million.
Oh, ok. Probably should read before I comment.
But if they didn’t do it this year they would still save that $11 million next year, right? And wouldn’t they have to take contract $$$’s back in a trade, thus negating much of the cap space?
"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."
if they were to trade Simmons for cap space, then they would have the same amount of cap space as if they had just let him expire. They would simply save paying him eleven million.
by Cablinasian on Jun 29, 2009 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I like how nobody is voting in this poll... lol
And I’d totally do this… if it were possible. Like others have pointed out, it would be very difficult to get that kind of outgoing salary.
couldnt we send out a big trade exception to offer immediate cap relief?
in addition to 3 mil cash? then we would only have to send out contracts totaling 9 mil or so.
could something like
przybilla
outlaw
bayless
6 or 7 mil trade exception
3 mil cash
for
Harris
BSEC
work?
trade exception can't be combined
The trade exception can’t be combined into other trades.
i meant couldn’t we use our cap space in a lopsided trade that would create a trade exception worth the difference in contract value? we wouldn’t actually be sending them one, it would be created by the trade
by Qyntel Woods on Jun 29, 2009 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I think creating a trade exception would be a "side effect" of this deal
but I’m not smart enough to figure out how much $ the TE would be
It would be nice to take that “new” trade exception and go after a backup PG, since I traded away both Blake and Bayless! But maybe NJ would renounce Steve and he’d come back to PDX?
We would have to do a sign and trade
We couldn’t re-trade a player we got on the trade-exception for 60 days. So if we want Devin in by training cap we’d have to sign and trade Raef to make anything work.
New Jersey could go for it since Trout and Blake are waivable, leaving them with just Bayless and a partial contract for Raef
Cap space for next year this time is zero.
We will have cap space up until the trade deadline of the coming season after that the contract extensions of LMA and BRoy will hit the books taking away any ability we would have to possess cap space in the 2010 FA signing period.
If we take back Simmons in a trade with the Nets for D. Harris, we could use the value of his contract in a trade for someone trying to get under the cap for 2010, so long as the trade is made prior to the trade deadline of the coming season. I would imagine we should be able to get something of good value, since the hefty contract of Simmons will have been payed by the Blazers for over half of it’s value to that point. Paul Allen would also have to be willing to pay some hefty change towards luxury tax too.
I say trade Bayless, Trout, Blake, Euros, and Claver for Harris and Simmons. The Euros and Claver make up the difference from what two4Larue shows above. That would be offer 1, with offer 2 of including Rudy and swapping out somebody else. I would be not as excited, but I still think it would be a Championship window opening move for the Blazers.
We go to a 3 guard rotation of Rudy, Roy, and Harris covering SG and PG minutes and with Martell playing a little sg on occasion too. Portland can find someone from the NBDL or a minimum FA that could cover the point too, or just use Patty Mills. Bring back Taureen, or someone like him. The Nets will then have the cap space to sign LBJ, DWade, and either Bosh or Amare come next year. In a way we would hurt our titile chances, but you have to take that chance. Who knows if the NJN and JayZ could pull that off.
Portland can find someone from the NBDL or a minimum FA that could cover the point
As I mentioned above, I’m “hoping” that NJ would waive Blake and he’d quickly “come back” and sign a LTC with Portland
Good point about the rights to the Euros. I’d use them as sweeteners, but I’m not sure if their “cap holds” would help narrow the gap between Blake/Outlaw/Bayless’ salaries and Harris/SImmons’
we have to do this before the 30th
to have Blake waived.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
I will talk about DeJuan Blair no more forever
Oops
You’ve forgotten one large detail:
If Portland uses the trade exception to get a $3 million player, then by the time they are able to make this trade with New Jersey (2 months later), they will have $3 million less cap space. So you’re still short on your outgoing salary by the exact same amount.
thanks for stopping by
what are the rules re: using the cap holds for Claver (etc) in a deal like this? Do they count as $0 or can their draft salary “slot” be counted as they appear on your website? Do they have to actually have to sign their rookie contracts, first?
Claver counts against the cap on July 1st
in the amount of $1,012,900. That affects how much cap space the Blazers will have if they choose to go that route. He counts that much against the cap this summer, unless he actually signs his contract, then his actual contract amount counts against the cap. I assume he won’t actually sign a contract for another year or two. If he doesn’t sign this summer, his cap hold drops off on the first day of the season (assuming he’s under contract with his European team) and will not return until 7-1-10.
If Claver’s rights are traded (ie, traded before he signs his contract) , he counts as $0 for purposes of matching salaries.
Once he signs his rookie contract, he cannot be traded for 30 days.
thanks again
I suppose the same is true with Freeland and Koponen, as well
So, would you do the deal with Rudy as the “4th” piece? How about Thorn?
and one last question
How do you interpret Thompson’s quote re: the Blazers “trading into their cap-space”
I'd take it as meaning
using the cap space to make a lopsided trade or two rather than signing a FA with it.
ah well...
whatever harris prolly isnt even available anyway
by Qyntel Woods on Jun 29, 2009 8:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Even if this trade was possible
I don’t think I would do it. By completing this trade we are effectively using up all of our cap space this summer on Devin Harris, unless we have a plan to trade the BSEC immediately in another big deal. I don’t know if this is too plausible though.
I just don’t think that Harris is worth eliminating all of our cap space. We would not be able then to sign a free agent (possibly a backup to LA or a starting 3 that can score). Not to mention then we would need a backup point guard. I like Harris, I just don’t think that he is worth banking all of our fortunes on.
"Brandon, a 3-pointer out front... HIT IT!!! YES HE DID!!! OHHHHH YEAAA!"
by oregonduck4life on Jun 29, 2009 8:42 PM PDT reply actions
Strike while the iron is hot
and the iron (Roy and Aldridge) is definitely warming up
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
three way...could be good, could be awful...
Blazers Get:
Devin Harris
Shane Battier
Kyle Lowry
NJ Nets Get:
Steve Blake
Travis Outlaw
Carl Landry
-rid of simmons
Rockets Get:
Bobby Simmons (and his expiring contract)
Jerryd Bayless
Joel Przybilla (Yao is done)
In this scenario the Blazers get Harris, and Lowry as they would lose their two remaining PG’s, also a top level defender and vet in Battier.
For the Nets, they refill the positions they are moving but move simmons contract and free up like $6 mil in cap space.
Houston needs to fill Yao’s grande shoes now that he will be out for the season and possibly his career, and come away with a good young PG and an expiring contract that will allow them to spend some money next year.
Take it easy on me if this wouldnt work, my first try!
As much as I like Battier (even though he was a Dukie)
I just don’t see how you could bring Shane in and find enoug minutes for Batum, Webster and Rudy (a good chunk of Rudy’s minutes came when Roy played the “3”)
To bring in Battier you almost have to move Batum or Rudy, otherwise it’s a worse logjam that with Trout
The Blazers get the goodies, the Nets get the cap space
the Rockets get the shaft.
We make out like straight-up gangstas in this trade.
Rockets get a sweet expiring contract and Joel (who they NEED) and Bayless, for an aging battier and two average bench players. They definitely do not get shafted
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
Good try
Nets need something else.
Harris and BSEC will command more than Blake, outlaw and Landry. Harris is a cut above. BUT – if they are seriously hurtin for money this is a great proposal.
"Tough times don't last. Tough people do."
-Chauncey Billups
I think you only need about 15.7 million outgoing
with the 125%+100,000 rule
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
if we are using capspace
the 125% + 100,000 rule doesn’t apply. that is only for trades between teams that are over the cap
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
player X would need to be signed before the harris deal went down?
can we do that? I might be wrong, but I don’t think we can ? right? not until the free agency, and by then we’d be under cap, so player x would take up some of the cap space… right?
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
"New Man Law: If you don't show up for the draft you don't get to come later if you're picked. If you believe in yourself, show up and sit there. If nobody else believes in you, take it and cry like a man...in front of the cameras."
-Dave
Two things, I'm pretty sure a trade exception can't be added at all to any trade in any way shape or form, and...
from the sounds of it, New Jersey is more likely to trade Harris than a gorgeous 11 million expiring contract. Their master plan is to lure FA’s in 2010, so I think the likelihood of them trading a great way to get under the cap is even lower than them trading Harris.
Love the idea though. I would reeeeeally love to be wrong about this one. It would be a great trade for us.
Not only would i trade anyone
except Roy LMA or Oden for Devin Harris, I would trade EVERYONE except those three for Devin Harris. I wouldn’t even try to haggle. I’d let NJ pick up to a half dozen of our our hot prospects and blue collar workmen and take back whatever garbage they’d want to dump on us. They want Trout and Bayless and Batum and Rudy too? Fine. It was a pleasure doing business with you.
A core of Harris, Roy, LaMarcus and Oden will at least make the playoffs for the next decade no matter which roll players you put around them. And there’s no one I’d rather have trolling the NBA bargain bins for spare parts than KP.
The best part is if I’m new Jersey I’d actually have to consider giving up a top 5 point guard. The Nets know that their only chance to be relevant in the next five years will come though the 2010 free agent bonanza. By trading away Harris and almost all of the rest of their salary they stand to make out like bandits in free agency. If I were NJ I just might bite at the chance to get waaaay below the salary cap while still acquiring some interesting young players.
I don't understand why the Nets dump Harris
They are going to be waaaaaaaaaaaay under the cap next summer and they have no chance of attracting a big FA in 2010 if their team has no good players. Look at this:
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_jersey.htm
The Brooklyn move is finally lurching forward again. I don’t think its in time to attract LeBron James, but maybe someone like Amare or Bosh would be willing to play in NJ for one year.
Harris is untouchable. The Nets have no incentive to trade him except for a player of equal or greater youth and talent.
I like the idea
I don’t want to trade Joel but they likely wouldn’t take him.
Also I think Devin Harris would be part of NJ’s lure for someone like Chris Bosh or Amar’e to sign in 2010. So it seems unlikely they’d trade him. Dunno.
Devin Harris
is a point guard, and so is Kyle Lowry.
Eh? Harris still untouchable? Any updates out there in da INTERWEB?
B.S. Liberal Studies OSU '06
Trade for Gerald Wallace!!
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