Devin Harris: the proposal (with poll)
by two4larue on Jun 27, 2009 12:24 PM PDT
58 comments
Note: I originally posted this as a response to a fanshot. But after putting all the time into it (and realizing there were still a few typos to fix, grr!) I thought that this modest proposal might be worthy of it's own fanpost. Enjoy!
The question was "why would the Nets even consider trading Devin Harris?
First off, I'm assuming that NJ wants to clear as much cap-space as possible, heading into next summer’s FA period. They just dealt Vince Carter, and the largest remaining contract on their books is Harris. Rumor was, they were shopping Harris before the draft, in hopes of moving into the top 5. Who did they want? On the Talkin' Ball program, Jaynes and Quick thought that NJ might want Rubio; they could then “sell” Ricky to their fans next season, while playing a bunch of low-priced kids (along with Lopez) and bide their time before making a huge splash in 2010 free agency (as11osu has been talking about them potentially having the room to sign LBJ, Wade, and Bosh.)
So with that as the backdrop, here’s my proposal:
The Blazers send Outlaw, Blake, Rudy and the rights to Victor Claver to NJ for Harris, and one (or several) of the following Nets players with non-expiring contracts.
Keyon Dooling, Yi Jianlian, Eduardo Najera, Josh Boone, Sean Williams or (perhaps) Courtney Lee
(I’m not going to take the time to discuss dollars, because Portland will be under the cap next Wednesday--when Harris will no longer be BYC--and these salaries won’t have to match, anyway. If you want to review the $ details, go to storyteller’s superb website)
http://www.storytellerscontracts.info/resources/09-10salaries.htm
Again, this is not as much about "talent" as about saving NJ money. (Well, it is about Harris’ talent, he would be awesome in a Blazer uniform, truly the last “piece” of their championship puzzle!)
The other nice thing about putting Oultlaw and Blake’s combined 7.6 mil expiring contracts into this deal is that (depending on how many of those Net's contracts KP would have to accept, if any) the Blazers would still have room under the cap left over to pursue a pretty nice FA big man. How would getting both Harris and Bass sound? Or McDyess? (I like Jeff Foster, but that’s another trade topic altogether)
So yeah, I realize I’m making a lot of assumptions, but they are based on New Jersey’s recent behavior and the well-known lure of the upcoming 2010 FA period. Don’t “write off” Devin Harris as being untouchable, that’s all I’m saying. The Nets may have much bigger “fish” in mind, next summer
To conclude, here’s a potential Blazer depth chart, assuming this deal were to be completed
Harris / Bayless / #3 PG
Roy / #2 SG / Webster / Batum
Batum / Webster / Bowen?
LMA / Bass? McDyess? Foster? / Pendergraph / Cunningham
Greg / Joel / Foster?
“#3 PG” and “#2 SG” could be one of those Net’s players (listed above) or they could come via future trades or FA signings. But please remember, the Harris-Roy starting backcourt is “the thing” to focus on, here. Don’t "just" lament the players the Blazers would be letting go to make the deal work.
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i wish
Kevin Pritchard would be taken up to heaven by blazers fans if this trade ever happened
"Good, Better, Best, never let it rest until your good is your better and your better is your best." Tim Duncan
by flynn4blazers on Jun 27, 2009 12:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Guts our bench scoring just about.
Still might be worth it.
μὴ φοβοῦ, μόνον πίστευε.
by T Darkstar on Jun 27, 2009 12:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not necessarily
Webster, Bayless, Oden, Bass could all score. But that would be a very hot-and-cold group of players.
--
by CaptainSexyJacob on Jun 28, 2009 7:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the result of this is that the Nets have this lineup:
Dwyane Wade / Championship Grab Vet (Steve Nash)
Rudy Fernandez / Courtney Lee
LeBron James / Terrence Williams / Chris Douglas-Roberts
Chris Bosh / Top 5 Lottery Pick (Ed Davis/Greg Monroe)
Brook Lopez / Championship Grab Vet (Jermaine O’Neal)
do you really want to be the team responsible for that?
It wouldn’t really much matter how much better we got. That team isn’t losing.
by as11osu on Jun 27, 2009 12:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey it was YOUR idea
I just fleshed it out, a little ’^)
by two4larue on Jun 27, 2009 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Finals for 5 years straight
Harris, Roy, Batum, LMA, Oden
VS
Wade, Rudy, LBJ, Bosh, Lopez
I’d pay good money to watch that.
by as11osu on Jun 27, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would too
I’d never have to watch another basketball game ever again if that happened.
"I been ridin' the midnight train, got ice water in my veins." -Bob Dylan
"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice
by koyote on Jun 27, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If this were the finals for 5 straight years
We’d get CRUSHED for 5 straight years! During the first two years Oden would foul out in the 1st quarter with Wade/LBJ driving to the hoop.
It would still be pretty cool to see though!
by PHXBlazerFan on Jun 27, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wade better stay in wade county (dade county, miami, florida)
"When i came up yall gave me sh*t, now ima make yall eat them turds" - Kanye West
by Davone_Is_BessT on Jun 27, 2009 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody's a good matchup against Wade or Lebron
Roy can take Rudy anytime, LMA and Bosh would be interesting to watch, and Oden could battle Lopez. Nic will just have to run everyone down from behind.
To summarize: Wade too quick, Kobe too skilled, LeBron too physical - Batum
by Ltlgto on Jun 27, 2009 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As opposed to?
Devin Harris
Dwayne Wade
LeBron James
Chris Bosh
Brook Lopez
The only guaranteed contracts they have next season are Harris and Terrence Williams. Rookie contracts are 2 years guaranteed and then it’s team options. They would obviously take the option on Lopez but they could let go of the rest and go to town.
by danielfarrell on Jun 27, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
With Harris
they can’t afford 3 max contracts.
by as11osu on Jun 27, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly there is no way they can sign 3 max contracts to incoming players regardless. But, here goes. Harris makes less than $9M that year. Dooling/Najera aren’t guarenteed so they get cut. Don’t pick up any team options except Lopez($2.4M). You also have Williams on the books for $1.8M. They then only have $13.2M on their payroll. They aren’t much lower than that in your scenario. But there are roster spot cap holds regardless that would keep you from signing 3 $20M players even with an empty roster.
by danielfarrell on Jun 27, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That said, they could get two of them. But why on earth would 2 of the mega-stars want to go to NJ? Maybe if Brooklyn was happening and LeBron went for that then others would follow. I suspect Bosh’s first choices are Dallas/Chicago/Knicks and Wade’s first choices are Chicago/Knicks.
by danielfarrell on Jun 27, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The max is 17 million to all of 2003's trio.
Harris’ 9 Million wouldn’t allow you to be even close to 3 max contracts.
Lopez (2.4), Rudy (1.2), Lee (1.3), Williams (1.8), CDR (0.8)
4 2nd Round Picks (1.8) Total
LBJ (17.0), Wade (17.0), Bosh (17.0)
Total = 59.0
I’m guessing the cap for next year comes in above 60 million at least. Once all this is done they can go about signing all the veteran minimum, championship rental types they want.
by as11osu on Jun 27, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2010 is when the cap will drop
Mark Cuban has talked about it before- the NBA salary cap is a lagging indicator- it will probably stay somewhat flat for 2009-2010, and then drop a few mill for 2010-2011.
by dprodigy19 on Jun 27, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those guys won't be heading to New Jersey
or Brooklyn. No reason to
by axel360 on Jun 27, 2009 12:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
harris wouldn't be able to handle
roy being the man
by axel360 on Jun 27, 2009 12:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Harris doesn't seem to be an ego case
Not sure why you would say that. I live in NJ and see him regularly, and he is a super talent plus a team player. Never had problems with Carter — they were a great duo. He’s be a great fit for Roy too.
by Kaboomm on Jun 27, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its not about Ego
Its about Roy being a SG that plays like a PG we need a PG that plays like a SG for it to work and Harris doesn’t do that.
Draft Cole Aldrich 2010
by jlarose78 on Jun 27, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harris scores in bunches
He just doesn’t have the most developed 3.
Is the big issue, though, that he needs to play better off the ball to fit with Roy? If that’s the case, why don’t we grab a true 2 to play alongside Brandon? Or, why not make a play for a guy like Ben Gordon instead of a Steve Nash or Kirk Hinrich?
by ninjasocks on Jun 27, 2009 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now, why wold you say a thing like that?
Did Devin Harris have a problem with Vince Carter being “the man” last year?
I don’t know where this “Harris wouldn’t want to defer to Roy” noise is coming from. By all accounts he Harris an awesome teammate and I heard an interview with Cuban who said that before Devin was drafted they had him sit down with a sport’s psychologist, the Doc gave Harris awesome marks for his mental toughness, etc
Harris and Roy would “play off” of each other just fine. I anticipate absolutely no problems between them
(If anyone has a link to the contrary re: Harris’ attitude (etc) feel free to share. If not, then we’ll just have to “consider the source” re: this negative line of thinking.)
by two4larue on Jun 27, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The assumption that NJ wants to open cap space by dumping their young all-star PG who is on a reasonable deal is hard to believe
Teams have tried before to build by dumping everybody and freeing cap space to go build a whole team thru free agency. The Bulls tried to do it after Jordan. The Magic tried to do it when they signed Grant Hill and TMac. It has been largely a failed experiment. Is it possible that NJ would try that stategy again? Most GMs like to do what has been successful in the past. Improves job security!
All these other salary dumps have been aging all-stars who are not producing at a high level relative to their salaries. This does not describe Harris at all. Should KP make a phone call? Sure! Is it worth wasting a lot of time debating the move? Sure! Why not? I love talking Blazers. Is it going to happen? I’d be hugely surprised if NJ moved Harris.
by 52therim on Jun 27, 2009 12:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Like I said, it was rumored that NJ was shopping Harris, prior to the draft
Maybe KP doesn’t have what they want, but you’ll never know unless you ask
by two4larue on Jun 27, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but they were not shopping him for much of a salaryd dump
but instead were looking to get a younger, cheaper, and possibly better pg than Harris. That makes sense, but getting some players who, for the most part, are what they are, mid level contributors.
Also, Miami is currently trying to get a commitment from Wade, and if he commits to them, then this does not happen.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
by jonestr on Jun 27, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK here's another wrinkle
I didn’t want to put this into the original proposal, there was no need to further complicate things
Let’s say KP makes a deal with Minnesota for Rubio. Then he takes Ricky and Rudy and goes after Harris. Do you think that the Nets would bite on that?
Wheels within wheels, my friend
by two4larue on Jun 27, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather have Ricky AND Rudy than Devin. Especially if we kept our core (Roy, LMA, Oden, Batum) in getting him.
by as11osu on Jun 27, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You're pushing "the window" back
Haven’t you heard? Brandon and Paul want to win right now!
<Glances briefly at the ’Wolve’s roster>
I’m guessing Kahn would want Przy (and more) for Ricky
But that would open up minutes for Bass to play backup PF/C…
by two4larue on Jun 27, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We keep Blake
the window isn’t pushed back at all. This team isn’t ready to win any Championships this year. Ricky increases our long term Championship number by more than Devin Harris by quite a large percentage all things considered (8 extra years of basketball from Rubio than Harris).
Given what you’re looking to give up for Ricky (Bayless Przybilla, Webster), there’s no reason we can’t still do the Outlaw/Blake trade for Hinrich. I haven’t looked at the numbers but I’m pretty sure you can go add Bass to that mix as well.
by as11osu on Jun 27, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
as long as Chicago
doesent want a straight salary dump on Hinrich then he wouldnt use all of our cap space, but they would only get salary relief on the order of 2-3mil if we do something like Blake and Outlaw, which would leave us near MLE money for Bass.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
by jonestr on Jun 27, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
they might take that
although are you trading Ricky’s rights or a signed contract? It adds a level of complexity that is hard to untangle at this point.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
by jonestr on Jun 27, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the 1st D. Harris trade . . .
proposal I’ve seen that makes sense ! If I had my
choice I’d do the deal with Harris & Najera. He’d be a
great backup PF to teach Pendy the ropes. Nonstop hustle,
garbage points and scrappy 2nd team D for 15 minutes. We
know he would accept the role, since Smooth would get most of
the minutes.
I’d miss Rudy & Blake, but this is one of thousands of BE deals
that gets the Walkoff stamp of approval ! Get it done, KP !
It's GO time !
by walkoff41 on Jun 27, 2009 1:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Harris is the top of my wish list
Aside from CP3 or DWill of course if this is possible I’m all for it.
by We-B-Dunkin on Jun 27, 2009 1:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The bonus
is that you could get any of NJ’s expiring contracts and their first round draft pick next year cheaply. They’re not going to have any use for their expiring contracts when 2010 rolls around, and their lottery pick is going to be owed 4-5 million dollars making them counterproductive if they’re going the max free agents route.
They’d value Pendergraph, Cunningham, and our future 2nd round picks for their general cheapness and the fact they wouldn’t hurt their cap situation.
Extra players you might consider being able to take on a drastic discount:
Yi and their lottery pick in particular would be worth looking into in a trade like this. New Jersey if they went through with this would suck, and that lottery pick would be a top 5 lock pretty much.
by as11osu on Jun 27, 2009 1:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
An unprotected lottery pick?
This deal just keeps getting better and better (rubs hands together)
by two4larue on Jun 27, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont see how they throw in
a lottery pick to this trade. That would be silly on their part to throw in a potential star level talent making less than 5mil.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
by jonestr on Jun 27, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think this deal would fly with the Nets
but I don’t see them as being the hot destination for free agents in 2010 either. It’s close to NY but not really NY. If someone wants NY, then go to the Knicks. They are having no luck in getting their new arena off the ground. They don’t really have a championship history. What exactly makes NJ attractive?
by jstamp26 on Jun 27, 2009 1:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What makes New Jersey attractive
would be the fact that they’d be able to sign all 3 of LBJ, Wade and Bosh. A Championship (probably winning) team right out of the gate. Also, if that were to happen the Brooklyn deal gets done in no time at all. And Brooklyn would be that attractive.
by as11osu on Jun 27, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats a lot of "ifs"
for NJ. If they can move to Brooklyn, and IF they can sign LBJ and Wade and Bosh. If I were NJ, for sure I would get rid of 33 yr old Carter for the chance at Lebron, Wade, OR Bosh, but I dont think I trade Harris and HOPE they all come to my team. Harris in combo with any one of these guys makes ECF garunteed.
by bad karma on Jun 27, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that's probably the road they'll take (and they'll lose out on all of them because of it)
Imagine the first day of the free agent summer of 2010 flying in that trio and lining up the contracts to all sign together.
None of the three are coming to New Jersey without this type of scenario. Swing for the fences.
by as11osu on Jun 27, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do the Nets play any farther from NYC than the Knicks do?
For all intents and purposes, Northern NJ is a suburb of NYC.
by ninjasocks on Jun 27, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knicks play @ MSG
Thats like saying SE Vancouver is the same as down town Portland! Thats messed up
by bad karma on Jun 27, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I guess I mixed them up with the NY football teams
and thought they played in NJ. Either way, the players are in the same media market and are probably going to have the same living arrangements, wherever they play.
I’m not sure that the Knicks have a lot more to offer than the Nets. While the Knicks have D’Antoni and MSG to attract FAs, the Nets have a good young core to build around and the possibility of 3 (instead of 2) max-contract players to bring in together. There doesn’t seem to be a clearcut winner to me.
by ninjasocks on Jun 27, 2009 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you know
Harris has averaged more than 3.1 turnovers per game for his career
Steve Blake has averaged 1.4 turnovers per game career
That’s more than twice the number of turnovers which indicates beyond any doubt or by any standard that he’s careless with the ball. You can imagine what that means for his turnover to assist ratio. He scores more; 12.5 per game versus 7.5 for Blake career. Harris shoots the 3pt at 31% versus 39% for Blake career.
So he’s a scoring guard but not a stable floor leader. Who would be the better guard for our championship run? It’s not so clear. Blake is three years older and a better floor general. Harris is faster and scores more but but makes poor decisions with the ball.
Which qualities serve the Blazers on our championship march and how would they affect our other acquisitions? Whatever we choose, the results will stay with us for the next 3-4 years.
by oregonslee on Jun 27, 2009 2:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Kind of a tough comparison
Blake rarley turns it over, but he doesnt create ANYTHING off the dribble. I mean, how do you turn it over if you cross center court and pass to Roy? Blake is a better 3pt shooter, but does he ever move defenders to create miss matches for our bigs?
by bad karma on Jun 27, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lies, damned lies, and statistics
Steve Blake, 29 yo, career average PER 12.1, career high PER 14.5 (last year)
Devin Harris, 25 yo, career average PER 17.9, career high PER 21.6 (last year)
PER is normalized by position so that the average PER is 15. In Steve Blake’s best year, he was below average. Also, he doesn’t really do anything to create shots for himself or others. Isn’t he playing the role of a (undersized, slow) SG (who tends to just hang out at the arc instead of threatening to penetrate) who just happens to take the ball up the court for Roy? Does a Roy-led team really need or want a “true PG”?
by ninjasocks on Jun 27, 2009 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All good points
and the answers are coming any day now. There’s no debate who is the better athete, shooter, etc… There’s also no debate who is the better leader and more stable on the the floor. It’s kind of like comparing a great PG to Derek Fisher. All the “facts” tell one story, but the outcomes tell another. The only debate I can really see regarding Harris concerns how he affects the financial structure of the team and our ability to upgrade in other areas. My guess is we won’t go for Harris but I still think he’s an exciting player.
by oregonslee on Jun 27, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understand.
There are so many what ifs in this scenario to make it highly unlikely.
Can you say “roll of the dice”?
You bet.
And New Jersey would be pickled if any of its “ifs” became “nopes.”
Such as: LeBron re-signs with Cleveland. Such as: Dwyane Wade re-signs with the Heat.
My source in the Nets organization — he called me asking for craps tips as he and Beyonce were walking into the Bellagio — said that such megadeals are just really rare.
But he said to tell two4larue that isn’t wasn’t completely crazy, either. Just that it won’t happen before the season.
Let’s see how things play out, my source says. How do LeBron and Shaq mesh? Does Miami get Wade a better supporting cast so he doesn’t have to work to the point of exhaustion every night?
For if the season is halfway through and neither player has signed an extension. If LeBron is grumpy and DWade is tired and Brooklyn looks like a fine destination for the two Olympians to reunite, the Nets might be emboldened enough to move Harris to create the cap room.
And that’s something you might want to bet on.
by Calzone on Jun 27, 2009 2:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What does NJ want? Bosh
If what I have heard is correct about pairing LeBron and Bosh, what is the easiest way to do that? Get Bosh to NJ now. Toronto has little leverage and will be looking for young players to replace him. NJ would be willing to give up Harris in order to get Bosh, but Toronto already has a pretty good PG.
If NJ traded for Bosh now they would retain his bird rights and that would be valuable to Bosh when he wants to re-up. LeBron would not have Bird rights, but isn’t he from Brooklyn?
New Jersey also wouldn’t be gutted. Giving up Harris and maybe Boone would get it done, if Portland threw Outlaw, Bayless, Pendergraph and a #1.
NJ gets Bosh to pair with Lopez. Terrence Williams and Lee are good young players. Atkins has shown that he’s pretty good at PG. Key is NJ is set up for FA next year.
Toronto needs young players. C Boone would allow Bargs to play PF. Outlaw, DeRosen, Bayless and Calderon all play well in the up-tempo. This fits the style they want to play.
Portland gets it’s man without giving up the core. Even keeping Blake. All of this would have to happen after the new cap is figured out. I’m dreaming here.
by parkinglotj on Jun 27, 2009 3:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd be okay throwing Claver and possibly other non core parts into that trade as well
He’s a guy Colangelo would love (Bargs-like). Although Bosh HAS to get traded before the deadline (for BC to keep his job) the people there need something to be excited about.
by as11osu on Jun 27, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about 3 pt shooting?
You are basically giving away all of our 3 pt shooters for Devin Harris who is not a 3 pt shooter. I am not against getting Harris but having any combo of Rudy, Blake and Outlaw on the floor with Roy is pretty hard to deal with. With Roy and Harris, you put two penatrators on the floor without the threat of the long ball and the lanes will close up. It isn’t a bad trade so much as it makes Portland unbalanced for the offense they run.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
by tssbro on Jun 27, 2009 7:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Add in Minnesota as a third team (since the Nets supposedly want Rubio)
Rubio and an expiring deal (Etan or Cardinal) to the Nets.
Harris to the Blazers
Rudy, Blake and a third contract (Outlaw or Webster) to Minnesota.
I think the Blazers might want Martell since he’s signed to a longer deal and won’t jet Minny ASAP. And that might actually be better for the Blazers since they could still use Outlaw’s expiring deal in another trade (maybe with Bayless).
I don’t like it for the Nets but they seem to be looking to dump any and all contracts and have a thing for Rubio.
My Open Letter to John Hollinger @ www.soulhonky.com
by SoulHonky on Jun 27, 2009 9:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Kahn would ask for Przy
Just look at their roster, they need a real center, not Jefferson playing out of position
As much as I lke Joel, I’d put him in a deal for Harris. (Maybe then giving up Rudy wouldn’t be necessary?)
I doubt Kahn will get a better offer than Blake or Outlaw plus Pryzbilla for Rubio. I think the Wolves are just barely under the cap (57mil) Kahn would probably ask KP to take a contract (like Songaila) in return
But if Kahn was to insist on Rudy, maybe KP could get Wayne Ellington to play behind Roy
by two4larue on Jun 27, 2009 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joel wouldn't replace Rudy
Joel would probably replace Blake and/or Outlaw. They aren’t trading the #5 pick for Pryz and Outlaw.
The Other Shoe: Ricky and "RuPaul" @ www.soulhonky.com
by SoulHonky on Jun 28, 2009 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Nets will not trade Harris without a marquee return
He is their only All-Star now, the lead scorer, and is young.
In order for anyone to want to sign to play there in free agency, there needs to be some guys there already capable of helping.
by baduk on Jun 27, 2009 10:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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