Blazers Summer 2009 Cap Space
by douglast on Jun 25, 2009 9:55 PM PDT
57 comments
Numbers via Storyteller
Post-Draft, here's the situation:
Assumptions:
- Frye, Shav, Ruffin, Raef are renounced
- Travis and Blake are NOT waived
Under Contract: (10 players)
- Joel 6,857,725
- LMA 5,844,827
- Greg 5,361,240
- Web 4,319,654
- Blake 4,000,000
- Roy 3,910,816
- TO 3,600,000
- JBay 2,143,080
- Rudy 1,165,320
- Nic 1,118,760
On books:
- Miles 9,000,000
Holds:
- Claver 1,012,900
- Koponen 824,200
- Freeland 824,200
Scenarios:
- Keep all holds: 49,982,722 (7.3 under 57.3 estimated cap)
- Keep Claver/Freeland: 49,158,522 (8.15 under)
- Keep Claver only*: 48,791,910 (8.5 million under)
- Renounce or trade all holds**: 48,236,598 (9.1 million under)
* Roster charge of 457,588 applied
** 2 roster charges applied
Keep in mind rights to any of our 3 Europeans can be traded away without regards to salary slots - all of them have a trade value of $0 both outgoing and incoming.
Short story - moving Sergio cleared about 1.5 million off our summer books.
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thanks for doing the work. renounce the Fin and we are at 8 million under. Good to know.
good luck dejuan blair
by Cablinasian on Jun 25, 2009 9:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Does $8.15 Million get you Brandon Bass?
I’ve got to hope so.
by as11osu on Jun 25, 2009 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
absolutely
with the current economic climate in both the US and NBA, I’d be surprised if Bass got more than the MLE from anybody! I expect something similar to 3 yrs, $13 million.
"Smile! You're on a poster!!" - Mike Rice
by lefty6283 on Jun 25, 2009 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He won't get less than the MLE, that's for sure...
I’d be perfectly happy with paying him 7-8 million for 5 years. He’s the perfect age and compliment to LMA, and either one of our centers.
by as11osu on Jun 25, 2009 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It may not be about the contract
Well, I guess with these pro athletes it’s always about “taking care of my family”, but if you were Bass would you come somewhere where you’re only going to get more than 15 minutes if there is an injury?
If you were the Blazers would you spend most or all of your cap space on a PF when you just used 2 draft picks and sent out a young role player with.. cough, cough.. potential to add 2 players that can fill that role? I like getting a vet PF, but a less expensive option.
Use the cap space to get an upgrade at PG. Hinrich lopsided trade for Blake or Sessions lopsided S&T for Outlaw. I like the Hinrich option best.
by 52therim on Jun 25, 2009 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He'll get increasing amounts of time as his career goes on
Joel isn’t going to be around forever. And if we’re willing to pay more, he ought to opt for us.
After you sign him you can go out and make your trades for point guards. Don’t ruin cap space with sign and trades IMO. Add to your roster at no cost. THEN make even talent trades. That’s the best way to get value. Hinrich (or like PG) and Bass is a doable scenario.
by as11osu on Jun 25, 2009 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
7.3 million is a very nice number
So if we immediately renounce our 22nd pick there is a roster charge? Am I understanding that?
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 25, 2009 10:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
basically
can someone explain why a roster charge is applied? I’ve never seen that before.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 25, 2009 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The CBA requires that you have 12 players on your roster
If you do not, the salary to bring you to 12 players is added to your cap regardless of the fact that they are not on your roster.
by JordanLeDoux on Jun 25, 2009 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
its essentially a cap hold at the price of a rookie minimum salary
it is just a mechanism that prevents teams from circumventing the CBA by getting down to just a few players under contract in order to have a ton of money to throw around.
You’ll probably hear a lot more about it next summer, when teams like NY are set to have like 4 guys under contract. They will get hit with another $4 million in roster charges before being able to throw money at free agents.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
by douglast on Jun 25, 2009 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks
another question. Do you know if we are allowed to renounce our rights to a player we just drafted? In this case Victor Claver. What’s the point in requiring a team to draft if they can turn right around and renounce their pick?
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 25, 2009 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, they can renounce any player that is not signed to a guaranteed contract
Then any team in the league can sign that player as a UFA.
by JordanLeDoux on Jun 25, 2009 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
what he said
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
by douglast on Jun 25, 2009 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This draft clearly shows.....
The Blazers are making a splash in trades/free agency and not draft day wheeling-and-dealing. Management is committed to adding veteran talent.
Gimmicks don't make dynasties
by WarEaglePDX on Jun 25, 2009 10:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Trades/Free-Agency is the "splash"....
but, I gotta say that I am not majorly disappointed with:
PG3 Patrick Mills who looked great in the Olympics, Draft-n-stash 6’11" combo-forward Victor Claver, seasoned and great sized PF3 Jeff Pendagraph to fill Frye’s/Shav’s shoes…. I am not sure about Dante Cunningham though. Good frame and decent athleticism, he looked good enough to get a shot in the NBA when I saw a couple ’Nova games, but personally I liked DaJuan Summers and especially DaJaun Blair or Sam Young much much better. But… KP and crew are the BrainTrust… and I will do just that TRUST that they made the right pick. Either way, I think Portland may be landing a PG (Kirk Hinrich) and a PF (Jason Maxiell or Brandon Bass) very soon.
by Portland Dynasty on Jun 25, 2009 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totally Agree!!!
Claver, you could argue, was BPA.
Based on all the other GM’s that were scared off by Blair’s knees and our need for a backup PF, Pendergraph makes sense at #31.
Why Dante Cunningham??? Low risk pick on Blair… let Sam Young come in and complete for a spot…even stash Calathes or Llull overseas. I’m trying to trust in KP, but this is a real head scratcher.
by 52therim on Jun 25, 2009 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for the numbers
so what does 8 mill get you these days?
The Blazers as a whole are far more like my wife than like me in the sense of their physicality on defense.
-Dave
by chrischa on Jun 25, 2009 10:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Can someone clarify for me?
Can we sign a free agent for more than our cap space allows and just pay the luxury tax for the difference?
Or are we constrained by rule to spend no more than the cap allows?
by Blazin' on Jun 25, 2009 10:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
as far as I know
you can’t go over the cap to sign a free agent (100,000 over is okay I think), only your own players. And I believe the luxury tax is different than the cap limit. The luxury tax line is much higher than the cap line.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 25, 2009 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The cap isn't about spending, it's about what rules apply to you
Different rules apply to signing and trading under the cap than over the cap, and you can’t have any trade or signing that opperates under both sets of rules. The only three ways to go from under the cap to over the cap:
1. Sign a free agent using bird rights (must be done prior to signing UFAs).
2. Complete a trade where you take in salary to put you over that conforms to the 125% + 100,000 rule.
3. Sign a minimum veterans contract that takes you over.
There are literally no other ways to go from under the cap to over the cap.
by JordanLeDoux on Jun 25, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
!!!!!! medically retiring a player and having his salary removed, and then that player making a comeback and having his salary reinstated back on your cap....
don’t think it’s EVER happened… but in therrororory, if it happend like it did at the right time…. that deal could take you back over the cap… yeah?
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
"New Man Law: If you don't show up for the draft you don't get to come later if you're picked. If you believe in yourself, show up and sit there. If nobody else believes in you, take it and cry like a man...in front of the cameras."
-Dave
by faith on Jun 25, 2009 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Technically that falls under bird rights, as that's what you use to unretire a player.
BOOM, lawyered.
by JordanLeDoux on Jun 25, 2009 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
dam! :)
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
"New Man Law: If you don't show up for the draft you don't get to come later if you're picked. If you believe in yourself, show up and sit there. If nobody else believes in you, take it and cry like a man...in front of the cameras."
-Dave
by faith on Jun 25, 2009 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Incorrect
No ‘rights’ or exceptions are needed for the league to re-apply a previously removed salary.
You’re confusing voluntary retirement with a player being cut who has (what has been ruled) a career-threatening injury.
Darius’ situation, for example, has nothing to do with retiring/unretiring. I know that some media people have used those terms incorrectly to describe the situation, but they are completely separate issues.
by Storyteller on Jun 26, 2009 7:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
really?
so I’m kinda right!!! woot woot!!! this is the DAY man!!! yeah yeah yeah!!!
toot toot (my own horn)
k I’m out.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
"New Man Law: If you don't show up for the draft you don't get to come later if you're picked. If you believe in yourself, show up and sit there. If nobody else believes in you, take it and cry like a man...in front of the cameras."
-Dave
by faith on Jun 26, 2009 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jordan - you're missing the obvious.
If a team has $7 million in cap room and then sign a player to the maximum allowed $7.1 million salary, then any further moves will require exceptions since they will be over the cap.
If a team has $7 million in cap room and then makes a trade in which they take back $7.1 million more in salary than they send out, again, they are now in a position where any further moves will require exceptions since they will be over the cap.
by Storyteller on Jun 26, 2009 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Flexibility
Even if it’s not enough to sign a top FA out right it gives you many options. If KP decides Turkoglu is his guy but he wants $11 mil a year he could work out a sign and trade to Orlando. Turk would sign with Orlando for $11 mil a year and be traded to Portland for Outlaw for example.
I’m not advocating this just offering it as an example.
by tylerdurden on Jun 25, 2009 10:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
why turk!!!!
lol… find another example!! I demand it. j/k
or something like, if we wanted to trade for kirk and just wanted to send out blake, and then outlaw for bass…. that could work…
or lol… the rookie for say one devin harris… I think that may even work… we have CAP SPACE!!! yeahhhhh!!! first time in…FOREVER!! and after this year… its’ gone forever again.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
"New Man Law: If you don't show up for the draft you don't get to come later if you're picked. If you believe in yourself, show up and sit there. If nobody else believes in you, take it and cry like a man...in front of the cameras."
-Dave
by faith on Jun 25, 2009 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah Hinrich is more likely
We don’t need to add any additional rotation players we just need to upgrade what we have. At this point we can upgrade Blake for Hinrich and possibly Outlaw for Deng/Prince/Wallace.
Hooray for Cap Space!
by tylerdurden on Jun 25, 2009 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's it gonna look like
Once we sign LMA and Roy to big multiyear contracts? I guess most of that will be made up for by Miles’ contract coming off the books, but still. It’s something to think about for the long term.
(then again it is Paul Allen’s money, so it’s not the end of the world no matter what)
by austinpwnz on Jun 25, 2009 10:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
actually
pencilling in max deals for Roy, and near-max each for LMA and Oden, our cap doesn’t look too bad for either 2010-11 or 2011-12, since Blake, Outlaw, and Mile all come off next summer, and Joel the one after that. it’s 2012-13 that’s scary, because add to those 3 big contracts the fact that Rudy, Batum, and Bayless will all be coming off their rookie deals.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
by douglast on Jun 25, 2009 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Extensions for LMA and Roy (and presumably Oden)
make this the last year that there will be significant (any?) cap space for a long time.
by tingeyga on Jun 25, 2009 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep
if Joel were to opt out next summer, we could in theory clear some space, but that seems unlikely and risky.
we won’t be in tax hell for the next few years, but we won’t have space either
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
by douglast on Jun 25, 2009 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you have to already add an additional roster charge to meet the 12 player minimum douglast. Claver as a current first round pick counts as a player during this off-season and brings the count to 11. Darius doesn't.
So plus 457,588, bringing the salary incl. everything (with no QO given to Frye) to $50,440,310. Otherwise I think you nailed it.
by Norsktroll on Jun 26, 2009 3:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Norsk -
I’m not 100% sure, and I want to find this out, but I believe that Darius counts towards the 12 player minimum. The CBA says to count “players under Contract with the Team who are included in Team Salary,”
Is Darius under Contract with the Team? You bet. His contract didn’t get torn up when he was cut – he’s still receiving salary because his contract demands that the team continue to pay him. Is he now included in Team Salary after playing with Memphis? Yes. That’s why I think he’s part of the 12 count.
by Storyteller on Jun 26, 2009 6:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was wondering about Darius as well
also, it’s my reading of the CBA and Coon’s FAQ that Freeland and Koponen both count toward the 12 as well. From Norks’s link:
The “scale” amount for the team’s unsigned first round draft pick(s)
That doesn’t say anything about current draft year only. Those guys are unsigned first round picks, and thus count in my understanding.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
by douglast on Jun 26, 2009 6:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Freeland and Koponen count towards the 12
by Storyteller on Jun 26, 2009 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
in which case my original numbers are correct
and Nork’s assertion that I need to add a roster charge are not.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
by douglast on Jun 26, 2009 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, I thought only the current first round pick(s) would be included in the count. And that Darius would be seen as a waived so not count towards the roster limit player regardless that he is still receiving money.
In this case there would be no roster charge even if we cut one of our unsigned draft picks.
by Norsktroll on Jun 26, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Norsk -
I had to think long and hard to try to determine if Darius counts towards the magical 12 number. But after re-reading the pertinent portions of the CBA, I believe that he does. I’m trying to get an answer from someone who knows the CBA better than I do, so if I’m wrong I’ll come back and eat crow. But needless to say, it certainly isn’t an open and shut case, is it? There’s a little wiggle room for discussion about the issue. But I do believe that it comes back to the fact that a signed contract still exists that demands he be paid $9 million this season by the Blazers.
You not counting Darius is nothing compared with some of the crazy, erroneous things I’ve typed on bulletin boards over the years….and like I said, I could be wrong on this issue, too.
by Storyteller on Jun 26, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll play devil's advocate
not saying I agree, just putting up the counterargument. The pertinant part of the roster charge langue (from Coon):
A roster charge if the team has fewer than 12 players (players under contract, free agents included in team salary, players given offer sheets, and first round draft picks). The roster charge is equal to the rookie minimum salary for each player below 12. The roster charge only applies during the offseason.
Ok, so where in that list does Darius fit in:
- Free agent included in team salary? nope
- Players given offer sheets? let’s hope not!
- 1st round draft picks – nope
- players under contract – hmmm.
well, he is a player (ostensibly anyways). the question is this: is he “under contract”. I see your point in arguing that there is a contract that requires us to pay hi $9 million. On the other hand, we can’t play him,trade him, waive him, or offer to buyout his contract. All those things can typically be done with a “player under contract”. So one could plausibly argue that he is NOT a “player under contract” to Portland.
My guess is that the INTENT of the CBA would be to NOT include him towards the 12 player minimum. But we’ve seen how the CBA’s intentions don’t always work simply in regards to Mr. Miles, haven’t we?
It’s an interesting theoretical argument, and probably one we are unlikely to need to explore this summer.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
by douglast on Jun 26, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's why I went to the CBA itself insted of the FAQ
http://nbpa.com/cba_articles/article-VII_4.php
Here’s who count towards the magical number of 12:
(2) In determining whether a Team has fewer than twelve (12) players included in its Team Salary for purposes of Section 4(f)(1) above only, the only players who shall be counted are (i) players under Contract with the Team who are included in Team Salary, (ii) Free Agents who are included in Team Salary pursuant to Section 4 (a)(2) above, (iii) players to whom Offer Sheets have been given, and (iv) unsigned First Round Picks who are included in Team Salary pursuant to Section 4(e) above.
It’s (i) that’s relevent here – players under Contract who are included in Team Salary.
Now here’s how Darius’ status is described:
(1) Beginning on the first anniversary of the injury or illness, the Team may apply to the NBA to have the player’s Salary for each remaining Salary Cap Year covered by the Contract excluded from Team Salary.
and
if after a player’s Salary is excluded from Team Salary in accordance with this Section 4(h), the player plays in ten (10) NBA games in any Season, the excluded Salary for the Salary Cap Year covering such Season and each subsequent Salary Cap Year shall thereupon be included in Team Salary
It’s the same words used: “Contract” and “Included in Team Salary”
But I just noticed something else:
Any player who suffers a career-ending injury or illness, and whose contract is terminated by the Team in accordance with the NBA waiver procedure, will be excluded from his Team’s Team Salary as follows:
Indicating that the contract with Darius is considered terminated.
OK, I’m officially changing my position! Seriously. Based on what I just read, I don’t believe the Darius counts towards the 12. Stupid rules……
Props to Norsktroll – he had it right all along. Props to douglast for helping me to see the light.
by Storyteller on Jun 26, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, my opinion was based on intuition and the FAQ not reading it up again
Another part where the CBA is not that easy to understand.
So to recap, if Miles wouldn’t be included our roster for the purpose of counting players would likely stand at 13 on July 1st, incl. draft rights to current first round pick Claver and – who I had not included in the count – unsigned first round picks Koponen and Freeland.
With the possibility that 1 or more of our second round picks also gets a contract, I don’t think we will get in the situation where we would have to apply roster charges. Unless we make a very lopsided trade and renounce players.
by Norsktroll on Jun 26, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Norsk -
Your intuition was right on. As promised, put a few crows into a humble pie for me to eat…..
by Storyteller on Jun 26, 2009 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now here’s how Darius’ status is described:
(1) Beginning on the first anniversary of the injury or illness, the Team may apply to the NBA to have the player’s Salary for each remaining Salary Cap Year covered by the Contract excluded from Team Salary.
and
if after a player’s Salary is excluded from Team Salary in accordance with this Section 4(h), the player plays in ten (10) NBA games in any Season, the excluded Salary for the Salary Cap Year covering such Season and each subsequent Salary Cap Year shall thereupon be included in Team Salary
It’s the same words used: "Contract" and "Included in Team Salary"
But I just noticed something else:
Any player who suffers a career-ending injury or illness, and whose contract is terminated by the Team in accordance with the NBA waiver procedure, will be excluded from his Team’s Team Salary as follows:
WHOS team… the team he plays for or the team that he was cut from… I don’t see a clear definition of who’s cap his salary should be placed…. don’t that say … sort of … that his team should have the cap hit… not the team that he’s been cut from?
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
"New Man Law: If you don't show up for the draft you don't get to come later if you're picked. If you believe in yourself, show up and sit there. If nobody else believes in you, take it and cry like a man...in front of the cameras."
-Dave
by faith on Jun 26, 2009 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It refers to
the team he was playing for when he suffered the ‘career-ending injury’.
In this case, that means the Blazers.
by Storyteller on Jun 26, 2009 11:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm no lawyer but that seems kinda flimsy to me.
I’d argue that it’s not clear enough about who’s team… becuase …
the player plays in ten (10) NBA games in any Season, the excluded Salary for the Salary Cap Year covering such Season and each subsequent Salary Cap Year shall thereupon be included in Team Salary
that part is…. talkin about the player… playing, … but it still asumes that the player is still playing for “the team” that cut him. it don’t talk about what actually happened. it doesn’t say anything about a diffrent team. so. if it asumes that he is playing for our team. and he really isn’t. shouldn’t the same “rule” apply to the team he is playing for. I think it’s pretty clearly saying that any team that signed darius AND played him in 10 games has to pay him the reamainder of his contract. it just asumes that he’d be playing for our team. and he didn’t. so it’s not our $$ to pay. stop paying him. litigate argue, don’t pay him!!! (asuming that we don’t get our cap space back in time(is there still time?))
u rock by the way storyteller. I get it :)
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
"New Man Law: If you don't show up for the draft you don't get to come later if you're picked. If you believe in yourself, show up and sit there. If nobody else believes in you, take it and cry like a man...in front of the cameras."
-Dave
by faith on Jun 27, 2009 12:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW,
I spent last night listening to the draft and updating the site, what with all the trades and draft picks.
http://www.storytellerscontracts.info/resources/09-10salaries.htm is updated as well.
by Storyteller on Jun 26, 2009 6:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
thanks
your site is invaluable
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
by jonestr on Jun 26, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just hope
you didn’t get your words mixed up, and that you meant to say valueless……
by Storyteller on Jun 26, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not at all
it is choked full of value
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
by jonestr on Jun 26, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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