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Why don't teams run a press defense?

I just read this article, although it's a couple months old, from Malcolm Gladwell that was in the New Yorker. It makes a good point about why smaller, weaker teams should run a full court press for 48 minutes.

Here's the link: http://tinyurl.com/pa2ls2

So this begs the question... Why don't NBA teams run a press or why wouldn't they run the press?

So hash it out, I wanna know why they don't run the press and dominate?

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How about why the Blazers don't press?

The Blazers are not small. The Blazers are not weak. They crush their enemies, see them driven before them, and hear the lamentations of their women.

by T$ 225 on Jun 23, 2009 4:06 PM PDT reply actions  

mmm what they're is correct?

The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.

by faith on Jun 23, 2009 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pitino ran the press in New York

Until his players told him he had to stop.

Coaches don’t rule the NBA, they are never as highly paid as their best players, and those guys don’t want to hump it all over the court for 82 regular season games plus the playoffs.

Basically, in the NBA teams only press if they really need the ball back immediately, and most players are conditioned to foul if they don’t get it (because in those situations, if they don’t get the steal they foul).

by baduk on Jun 23, 2009 4:07 PM PDT reply actions  

Pitino is the poster child for the answer

NBA players can break the press fairly easily. The pressing team will also be physically fatigued by the end of the game. Now add 82 games to that equation.

"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith

by blzrfan on Jun 23, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

You're right, it's hard work, BUT...

IF teams ran a press in just the fourth quarter instead of the last few seconds of the quarter it could be effective. The point I’m really trying to make is that NO ONE runs the press.

Same thing with the skyhook. Kareem used that to get the career points record and he used it to great lengths. Now he’s a coach for the L*kers and none of their bigs want to learn it. Why? Well it’s ugly.

I bet we could get 5 guys who post on this site who have never played basketball at the high school or collegiate level teach the sky hook and run a press and give some NBA teams a run. We take away size, take away speed, and you take away low percentage long distance shots.

It’s just an interesting argument and the only excuse I hear is that it’s because players don’t like to.

Tim Giles

by Tfor3 on Jun 24, 2009 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thats an interesting point about the skyhook...

I read an article a little while back about the skyhook and why nobody will copy it today. What it comes down to is kids don’t learn it because it doesn’t really have style points. I really wish Oden and LMA would make an attempt to learn it as it is litteraly an unstoppable shot when executed correctly.

On the five guys thing… There is no way! Maybe if you took five D1 college athletes you could pull it off. You have to be extremely quick to avoid fouling and stay in front of the ball handlers. Also if you don’t have comparable size to the NBA players, they could just pass over your heads all day long.

by lrh86 on Jun 24, 2009 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Heh...

Any 6 BEdgers on the court at the same time would get absolutely dominated by any pro team no matter how good we pressed or how pretty our sky hooks were.

The Princess of Blazersedge

by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

OK So you're probably right...

BEdgers wouldn’t be able to stand a chance at truly winning but they have no chance anyway. In the NBA you have 5 guys of similar size and the only thing that usually changes from team to team is skill level but the premeir point for using a press is you take away a lot of their skill when you have 5 guys covering 4 players.

The point is made in the article that you don’t need to cover the guy inbounding the ball because he can’t go anywhere but up and down the baseline. Mix that with a 5 second max to inbound the ball and it gets even more interesting.

For those of you who play in a rec league and you run into Mike Barrett’s team in the tournament, run a press! Don’t cover the inbounds guy and shadow the rest with two guys on their tallest most skillful player. You have yourself a game!

Tim Giles

by Tfor3 on Jun 24, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

NBA offenses

would shred the press and get layups all game long.

Sure, the team running the press would get some steals and easy buckets, but the net result would be a huge minus.

How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009

by douglast on Jun 23, 2009 4:12 PM PDT reply actions  

what he said

was what I was going to say

"I been ridin' the midnight train, got ice water in my veins." -Bob Dylan
"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice

by koyote on Jun 23, 2009 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

a press works

against point guards who:
A. can’t handle the ball
B. can’t see the floor
C. are slow
D. all of the above

not many of those in the NBA.

"I been ridin' the midnight train, got ice water in my veins." -Bob Dylan
"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice

by koyote on Jun 23, 2009 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

So true

unfortunately.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.—Dune

by Muad'Dib on Jun 23, 2009 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

uh, i have a feeling blake ran into the press quite a few times at maryland

on his way to winning a ncaa championship.

the low-turnover aspect of his game does not actually just grow on trees.

ignacio

by ignacio on Jun 23, 2009 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

shhh

don’t let facts get in the way of popular misconceptions.

"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.

But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html

by ratbastird on Jun 25, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Didn't Simmons bring this up in a podcast or column a while back?

I swore I remember him saying why not use guys 8-12 (or 11-15) as a press unit against the opposing 2nd unit for short stretches of the game. Didn’t seem like that bad of an idea, especially in that situation. It’s not like most of those guys are going to be doing much, besides taking up bench space.

by Furious Styles on Jun 23, 2009 4:26 PM PDT reply actions  

yes he and malcolm gladwell already discussed this is detail

I’m too lazy to post the link to that article though. pretty much covers everything in this thread but def an interesting topic.

The Blazers as a whole are far more like my wife than like me in the sense of their physicality on defense.
-Dave

by chrischa on Jun 23, 2009 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

players in deep pine are there for a reason

they’re not just a bunch of supercharged mega-athletes waiting to set free.

ignacio

by ignacio on Jun 23, 2009 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

So if Simmons likes pressing...

If Bill Simmons likes pressing does that mean that half the people on BE will automatically hate it?

Seriously, I think the simple reason is that the players won’t do it. You can’t get half the guys in the league to play half court defense.

by terryisntbald on Jun 24, 2009 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Many reasons

1. The higher the level you get, the worse the press works. See, pressing skill doesn’t improve with age really, but ball handling skill does. A 12 year old dribbling a ball is a lot slower than a 12 year old not dribbling the ball. An NBA player dribbling can move nearly as fast in the open court as someone not dribbling. Yes, there are examples of the press working well at the college level, but these examples are rare and the pressing team typically has skillful players anyway.

2. The season is 82 games. Pressing twice a week for 16 weeks might be feasable. Pressing 3.5 games a week for 5 months is not feasable. There is enough wear and tear on the players… just imagine if they were moving twice as much each game.

3. The NBA press leads to a lot of layups. Watch the end of games when a team is forced to press. As often as not the opponent finds an open player for a layup/dunk and this is WITHOUT the offensive team scouting the press. If you tried a press from minute 1, by minute 3 the coach would be calling a timeout with a way to beat it.

The Princess of Blazersedge

by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 4:31 PM PDT reply actions  

exactly. the press turns into an offensive fastbreak.

rick pitino tried it and it failed and as it failed his players rebelled.

and pitino went back to being a college coach.

ignacio

by ignacio on Jun 23, 2009 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

You see similar things in many sports

As the competition gets better, the game gets slower.

Look at wrestling. In high school you see a ton of high flying throws and high scoring matches.
In college, this dies down quite a bit, the matches are lower scoring and slower paced.
In olympic level wrestling, 1-0 wins you matches!

MMA
Watching scrubs fight is awesome, so was the beginning of UFC. Guys would completely go at each other. However, now that everyone is getting good, the fights are slowing down and becoming more dull. Even Silva is running into people who try to counter him by slowing the game down to a boring pace.

Soccer
My brother once scored 8 goals in a game when he was 12.
A friend of mine scored 4 goals in a HS game once.
Find this happening in college/pros. It doesn’t because everyone is better and the game slows down.

The Princess of Blazersedge

by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know if the game becomes slower as the competition improves

but the oppourtunities to attack definitely aren’t as plentiful.

by tingeyga on Jun 24, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

I suspect

that maybe be along the lines of what he meant.

"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.

But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html

by ratbastird on Jun 25, 2009 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Why press before the Offense is within 30 ft of the goal?

They ain’t shooting from any farther. It’s a lot of effort for not much return, better to play the passing lanes and set up good position.

Come on you gotta listen unto me,
lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be. ~Johnny Cash

by HurraKane212 on Jun 23, 2009 4:33 PM PDT reply actions  

Everybody here is pretty much right.

The press doesn’t work against the superior athletes that are in the NBA.

by lrh86 on Jun 23, 2009 4:39 PM PDT reply actions  

Sorry, I have nothing to contribute to this discussion except this excellent (and pertinent) Luda verse.

Every album that I drop has got more than ten bangers
That’s cause I’m a shot caller and ya’ll fools is crank yankers
Ain’t a damn thing changed but the ice on my chain
I got chicks from Portland Oregon to Portland Maine
Now I roll up torpedoes, get blunted with Rastas
For a hefty fee I’m on your record like Bob Costas
I own so many jerseys, I’m a throw-back mess
I hit the cleaners an tell ’em I want a FULL COURT PRESS

by samuelleejackson on Jun 23, 2009 4:57 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

because teams have offensive plays to beat the press

and most of them are really easy to execute.

"There are a few teams you have to watch out for in the fourth quarter."
"Yeah, but Portland definitely is not one of them."

-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters at the end of the third quarter with the Hornets leading 74-59. Portland later ends up winning 97-89.

"They don't mind him shooting that shot at all. Rudy Fernandez is not that great of a 3pt shooter."

-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters right after a Rudy Fernandez missed 3pter. Rudy Fernandez finished the game with three 3pters on six attempts.

by Tofu Anonymous on Jun 23, 2009 5:19 PM PDT reply actions  

There are all kinds of problems

with Gladwell’s application of his overall point to basketball, even if I agree with his overall thesis (although it’s pretty pitiful that as a central example he uses a mythical encounter between a man and a giant). The main issue with the press, though, is that it relies heavily on the opponents unfamiliarity with it and the element of surprise. 12 year old girls have almost certainly never played against an aggressive full court press and so have no idea how to react to it. Additionally, I’d guess that almost no scouting takes place at that age level, so teams they play probably don’t know it’s coming and don’t prepare for it.

Neither of these is true at the NBA level. Every NBA player will have played against a press at some point in their lives, even if it’s just at a high school level, so they’ll know the basic strategies for beating it, they just have to execute them. Plus, with the scouting networks and televised games in the NBA, every team playing the pressing team will know what they’re up against and will therefore be able to prepare accordingly without getting caught off guard.

Of course, the other major issue is Gladwell’s characterization of those UK teams, which may have been some of the most stacked teams in NCAA history. Maybe not many of them went on to be NBA stars, but then, neither did Adam Morrison, and he was a great college player. Plus, in at least one year, something like 9 players on the team went on to play in the NBA. That’s absurd for any team.

by Royster on Jun 23, 2009 7:30 PM PDT reply actions  

The press doesn't work in the NBA

just like the triple option doesnt work in the NFL. The press may work in surprise situations, but it would not be effective for a long period of time, especially for 48 minutes. NBA pgs have adequate ball handling ability to beat the press. The larger dimensions of the court make it much too hard for the defense to contain the players as they have a lot of space to maneuver around.

Senior Asian ambassador of Blazers Edge

by Philthyanimal on Jun 23, 2009 10:09 PM PDT reply actions  

And for the same reason

triple option doesnt work in the NFL

Everyone on defense is fast. In college, lots of teams have lots of slow defensive players. In the NFL, a slow defensive player doesn’t exist.

The Princess of Blazersedge

by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

gladwell also thought that all nba players should have afros

so i don’t always trust him

dinasour type of guys choir boys

by mittsabishy on Jun 23, 2009 10:23 PM PDT reply actions  

I agree with this... the less your opponent can see behind you the better.

a big fro covers alot of viewing area… it’s moveable high, low… left right… it’s like a big fan… couldn’t you just see oden with a 8 inch fro… bobbin his head left to right to block passing lane views…

now imagine the whole team with 8 inch fro’s.

The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.

by faith on Jun 23, 2009 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

The press was effective for the Blazers

when Greg Anthony and Stacey Augmon were implementing it. The press can be an effective weapon when used expertly and somewhat randomly, or when the opposing team does not have its best ball handlers on the court. I think Nic and possibly Jerryd might be effective at times. Wonder if we’ll see it? Probably not, as McMillan is apparently less experimentally inclined than Dunleavy.

"Just kidding"

by CatMan2 on Jun 23, 2009 11:45 PM PDT reply actions  

You are all excellent at repeating dogma

I read the Gladwell piece as well and I found it very interesting. I think it’s too facile to watch young girls’ basketball and immediatley announce that NBA teams should run the press.

But I also think the majority of resondents commit the classic error of merely repeating dogma and platitude and calling that learning. Taking advantage of bleating dogma is exactly what made Billy Beane and Theo Epstein successful in baseball, it is what made Bill Walsh successful in football (inventor of the “West Coast Offense,” and it is part of the advanced metrics being used in basketball.

Case in point: the excellent post on how LA Lakers don’t care who brings the ball up—be it PG or someone else—despite what dogma says about the need for a PG.

The point of Gladwell’s piece, and I agree with him, is that space is not properly used on the basketball floor. He is quite correct in saying that virtually the entire court is surrendered by the defnese until (roughly) the 3 pt line.

Could there be a better way to use that space? I seem to recall that hallowed Blazers of Addleman’s years using the press effectively. I recall Reggie Miller scoring something like 32 pts in 9 seconds based upon trapping defense. Nellie-ball may yet prove successful.

So while I agree that the press is probably inappropriate for 82 games and NBA stars with ice in their ears, don’t so easily dismiss the concept of innovation in the defensive space on the basketball floor. Here, there is a lot of room for improvement.

I, personally, would love to see the Blazers try some outrageous and new methods of playing basketball to the befuddlement of the rest of the league.

Buck Williams for the hall of fame

by Phizbin on Jun 24, 2009 7:34 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Excellent point!

Concede to dogma, and innovation will be greatly stifled. This is especially on the mark regarding the “medical mob” and of course in many others areas as well.

Your take was refreshing next to all the expected comments supporting the status quo.

To fully explore whether or not a pressing game could work in the NBA, would take a multiple year commitment to it by an owner, GM (who would have to draft/trade for appropriate players) and of course a coach skilled in its execution. That is unlikely to happen though. Maybe a maverick (pun not intended) like Cuban?

  Is Johnny Wooden still alive? His pressing UCLA teams were beautiful to watch. He always found and recruited fast and quick players to fit that system. True, his seasons were far short of 82 games, but he was just a tad successful with that approach (not all of his NCAA championship teams featured the dominant centers, Alcindor and Walton).

Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave

Also: COMCAST SUCKS!

by TwoDeep on Jun 24, 2009 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Multi-year commitment is tough

Thanks for the kind remarks.

Very, very hard to get multi-year commitment for something like that. It would require different kinds of players, different kinds of coaches, and tolerant fan base for that same long-term. Tough!!

That’s why I’m kind of infatuated with Nellie-ball.

It could be that pro sports—particularly basketball—is kind of stuck in the QWERTY rut: we could agree that there probably is a better way but it would very, very hard to execute.

But if someone were to try, Portland (like Oakland for baseball) would be an excellent market to try it out in. And not just the press… it would be fun to see an owner/coach absolutely committed to paradigm-busting basketball.

Buck Williams for the hall of fame

by Phizbin on Jun 24, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

I hear you...

… that’s why I said “the majority of repondents.”

In any event, I think the post rather benign. I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Buck Williams for the hall of fame

by Phizbin on Jun 24, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

No feelings hurt here (or probably anywhere)

Let me try once more to express myself: it’s generally best to simply express your point of view on a subject without being condescending.

"Just kidding"

by CatMan2 on Jun 24, 2009 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Press

People are enamored of the press because Wooden’s teams used it to dominate the Pac-8 for a decade. Ralph Miller used it too. Eventually, teams became better fundamentally and the press became easier to deal with and fell away as a defensive weapon.

by 7677maniac on Jun 24, 2009 9:05 AM PDT reply actions  

Go back a few years and imagine Sarge telling Z-Bo "we're gonna press"...

Actually, I think there are a few other reasons why the press isn’t used more often:
1) It’s a momentum-changer. If you routinely press, what are you going to do if you need to break the other team’s momentum, not press?
2) The 3 pointer. Have you ever noticed how jumpers start clanging when legs get tired? Pressing would magnify that effect. I think to have a pressing defence you’d need to have a pretty strong inside game on offense to go with it — and the 3 pointer is valued pretty highly in today’s game.
3) I’m guessing that the pressing team would pick up a lot of fouls trying to inhibit the movement of offensive players in the NBA. Phil wouldn’t even have to call timeout, he’d just start working the refs about how much contact his players were receiving away from the ball (and if they weren’t, it would be too easy for pro players to break the press)

by JStal on Jun 25, 2009 5:06 AM PDT reply actions  

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