What I learned from the 2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers
The 2008-09 season was the first time I ever dropped coin for one of the NBA's "League Pass" products. I was a satisfied customer.
Since I live in the blacked-out Portland television market, having League Pass Broadband proved of virtually no use in helping me keep up with the Blazers. This was little matter, however, since every Trailblazer game was on my TV — either on Comcast, Portland's KGW-TV, or broadcast nationally. I missed 3 or 4 games due to work, these things happen, but I still saw the full season, outside of those very few games.
What League Pass Broadband did allow me to do was to stay abreast with the happenings of my boyhood team and #2 squeeze in the league, the Los Angeles Lakers. The Lakers are unquestionably the hated historic arch-rival in the view of the Blazers' most devoted, lifelong fans — but that sentiment means nothing to me. I like both teams. It is an unusual combination of objects of affection, certainly, but that's the way it is. I grew up in California during the 1970s, there ya go...
Now, with LPBB, if the Lakershow wasn't on national TV, it would be available to me for viewing via the internet. This ultimately proved to be quite a boon in this particular year.
I saw a great number of games played by Phil's boys, either live or as previously-recorded "archive" games. I'm not exactly sure how many regular season Laker contests I saw this past year, but it was probably in the ballpark of 45 or 50 — plus all of the 23 playoff games, less a couple quarters when I was at work. Suffice it to say that I probably watched enough Lakers basketball this year to kill a small family of native Oregonians.
One team that I followed — young and on the upswing; the other — fully mature, making a second straight visit to the NBA Finals, and World Champions. It made for some very interesting comparisons and contrasts.
Laker fans, speaking in generalities about a stereotype, are considered to be superstar obsessed: "Kobe-Kobe-Kobe-Kobe." The fans of Team Purple are thought to know that one player's name all too well, but beyond the obvious isolation heroics of #24, the nuances of team basketball are believed to largely escape them. As with many myths, there is some truth at the root: as a high profile and historically successful team from one of the largest media markets in the country, the Lakers are undeniably supported by many casual fans of the game, for whom almost everything beyond the identity and scoring statistics of The Superstar remain a complete mystery.
It does not follow, however, that all Laker fans are shallow and dumb — quite the contrary. There are smart fans of every team in the league, even the Lakers, just as there are stupid fans of every team in the league, even the Blazers. The sooner we all come to grips with this fact and stop mocking fictional caricatures of the followers of opposing teams, the better off we will all be. Peace, love, and understanding, bro...
The widespread bias against the Lakers and their fans has lead to a peculiar myopia. The purportedly superstar-driven team and its allegedly superstar-obsessed fans are dismissed as alien to the "real" NBA experience. The Lakers are reduced in the imagination of those basketball fans who do not like them and do not follow them into some sort of one man show, from which there is nothing of great importance to be learned.
This is, I believe, a tremendous mistake.
Here are some of the things I learned from the Lakers about winning a championship in the NBA.
1. To win it all, you need to have a superstar that performs like a superstar. Let's get past Kobe's personality, shall we? I don't care if you don't like his on-court demeanor, his widely publicized off-court sexual escapade in Colorado, his repeated and changing demands of team management... I don't care if you find him insufferably arrogant or if you think him media-obsessed... I don't care if you think he's an overexposed, hypercommercialized whore... The man can play basketball — he's arguably the top wing in the world, a Hall of Famer, heir to Michael Jordan's throne.
Without Kobe Bryant, the Lakers never would have won a World Championship in 2009-09. "No duh," right?
Here's the deal: every team in the hunt for the NBA title this year had its superstar. The Cleveland Cavaliers had Lebron James. The Denver Nuggets had Carmelo Anthony. The Orlando Magic had Dwight Howard. Last year's Boston Celtics had two: Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett. If a team wants to have a chance to win it all, they need to have a superstar. But more: those guys need to continue to play like superstars, no matter what.
As long as the afprementioned superstars performed like superstars during these playoffs, their teams advanced. We saw the miracle shots, the 30+ point performances in the face of consistent double-teams. Winning games in the bright spotlight of the NBA Playoffs requires teams' superstars to be able to continue do their things despite the pressure and despite the opposition doing everything in their power to shut off the scoring spigot. Without a superstar, a team was eliminated. When a superstar was stopped, a team was eliminated. In 2008-09, only one superstar was unchecked — Kobe Bryant. For the 23 postseason games the Lakers played, Bryant averaged 30.2 points per game, 5.5 assists per game, and 5.3 rebounds per game.
Let me repeat that: he averaged over 30 points a game despite being targeted by the opposing coaches 23 times in a row. He lead his team in assists — as a shooting guard. He pulled down more than 5 rebounds per outing — as a guard.
It was no accident that Kobe Bryant's team won it all.
For the Portland Trailblazers to be World Champions, Brandon Roy must be able to perform like a superstar — night in, night out — against all comers, against the best defenders in the league, against specific defensive schemes designed to stop him. If he is not able to do this, the Portland Trailblazers will not win it all.
Bank on that.
2. Depth is swell, but it is quality starters that win championships. If you are foolish enough to pay attention to TV analyst dorks like Mark Jackson and Jeff Van Gundy, you might think that the Los Angeles Lakers were the "deepest team in the NBA." They gushed and they fawned over the extraordinary players and superior abilities of the Lakers' so-called "Bench Mob."
It all sounds very reasonable, does it not, that the "best team" in the Western Conference is its deepest? Well, let me tell you as a most unhomery Laker fan that this is unmitigated and unadulterated horse crap. Spread it on your garden and grow great tomatoes... Don't kid yourself about the Lakers' depth, even for a minute — they were shallow, their bench players were spotty and inconsistent. The Lakers won the championship because they had the best 6 man rotation in the league, not due to having 12 guys on the bench who could play ball with the big kids.
Don't believe me? Take a gander at the scoring line for $5 Million backup Shooting Guard Sasha Vujacic in these playoffs: played in all 23 games, averaged just under 11 minutes per game, scored an average of 3.0 points per game. In the five Finals games, our svelte Slovenian shooter averaged 4.4 minutes and scored .............. wait for it................ ZERO points. Not much production from the back up Shooting Guard there, eh?
Let's take a look at another $5 Million man, Bill Walton's baby boy, Luke. Walton saw action as the backup Small Forward in 21 of the 23 playoff games, averaging 15.8 minutes and ........................... 3.8 points. That was his same average points per game output for the 5 games of the finals. Hmmm, not much output from that position either...
Now how about that backup "Lead Guard" of the Lakers, former UCLA Bruin Jordan Farmar — how did he do? Farmar saw action in 20 of the 23 playoff games, collecting 3 DNP-CDs. He averaged 13 minutes per game and scored .................... 4.7 points per game. In the 5 games of the NBA Finals, PJ had his time down to 11.4 minutes and his scoring fell to 3.4 ppg. Again — precious little production from that backup. Alternate "Lead Guard" Shannon Brown (a fan favorite) contributed little more, kicking in an average of 4.9 points for the playoffs — and matching Sasha Vujacic's ZERO points for the 5 games of the NBA Finals, in which he played a grand total of about 16 minutes spread over 3 games.
The Lakers made use of a 3 man rotation of bigs in which starting Center Andrew Bynum suffered from chronic Foulosis Odeneri. Bynum played largely ineffective minutes reminiscent of the court time of Blazers starting SF Nic Batum. The de facto Center for the Lakers throughout the playoffs was actually Pau Gasol, with 6th man and future Unrestricted Free Agent Lamar Odom the de facto Power Forward for a majority of the team's floor time.
The long and the short of it — the Lakers were essentially a 6 man team, featuring Kobe Bryant SG (30.2 ppg), Derek Fisher PG (8.0 ppg), Trevor Ariza SF (11.3 ppg), Lamar Odom PF (12.3 ppg), Pau Gasol C/PF (18.3 ppg), and Drew Bynum C (6.3 ppg in an average of 17.3 minutes). Total for the 6 man core — 86.4 points per game average for the playoffs.
The moral of the story for the Blazers is simple: A team does not need 10 guys that can put up numbers in the playoffs to win it all. Quite the contrary. A tight core will do nicely, so long as that team of starters are capable of performing at their highest level under pressure.
The key thing is that the team is not taken off their game by the opponent's defensive schemes and does not lay an egg under the bright lights.
3. Home court advantage is a very, very good thing. With the demise of Cleveland in the Eastern Conference Finals to the Orlando Magic, the Lakers were assured of home court advantage throughout the playoffs. That fact was never far from the surface in these playoffs — the Lakers started each match ahead 0-0, with their opponents having to fight from behind.
It is facile to note that The Great Queen Bitch, Home Court Advantage, is often decisive in the NBA. Yet just because this is such an obvious platitude, it doesn't mean that it is not true. The Lakers had Home Court Advantage throughout and they won the 2008-09 NBA Championship. Draw your own conclusions.
Every year we see the same thing: Teams with home court advantage advance, teams fighting uphill as visitors lose and go fishing. Every once in a while you have your visitors beating the home teams — as the Blazers learned through the school of hard knocks in the 2009-09 season when Houston flipped them off the tracks — but home court advantage is a bankable asset.
If the Blazers are really serious about going all they way, they need to light it up during the regular season in order to defend home court throughout the entire playoffs rather than starting a series in a 3-foot deep hole.Having the home floor for 4 of 7 is not an absolute guarantee of success — but it certainly helps to tilt the odds.
4. Championship teams can win on the road and know they can win on the road. The flipside of having home court advantage throughout the playoffs (i.e. the best regular season record in the NBA) is that a team performs well on the road. Did you know that the Lakers had the best road record in the NBA during the 2008-09 regular season? True fact, they were 29 wins and 12 losses. Put another way, Team Purple was more successful on the road than their playoff compatriots the San Antonio Spurs and the New Orleans Hornets were at home.
Why were the Lakers so good as road warriors? Two factors: absolute confidence and competitive fire. Anyone who paid close attention to Kobe Bryant's eyes when their back was against the wall against Houston knows this story — the man loves to play on the road and to stick it to noisy crowds wearing the wrong colors.
In 2008-09, when the Blazers dropped Game 1 and fell behind to Houston, the series turned. Simply put, the Blazers were a poor road team against quality Western Conference opponents, they knew they were a poor team. They did not win in Houston not because Houston was a better team than them — the Blazers were at least as good as the Rockets, if not better — but because they were unable to execute under pressure in a hostile environment.
When Portland is able to demonstrate throughout the course of a long season the ability to go into any building on any given night and to come out with a win, then and only then will they be ready to win a championship.
The Lakers were not better than the Blazers in 2008-09. They were more.................. experienced.
More on that below.
5. The importance of the Point Guard position is highly overrated. During the 2009-09 regular season, I saw the following Lakers carry the ball up the court on a change of possessions on multiple occasions: PG Fisher, PG Farmar, PG Brown, SG Bryant, SG Vujacic, SF Ariza, SF Walton, PF Odom, and, believe it or not, C Gasol. Hey, I've got a little taste of proof of the truth of the last bit: PAU ASSIST TO ARIZA.
How many times do I recall seeing the Laker ball carrier get trapped with designed pressure? I honestly don't recall it, no matter which of the above-mentioned guys was packing the rock. The fact that the carrier was essentially random seems to have mitigated designed traps on the Point Guard.
This is not accidental. The Lakers' offense is not structured around their Point Guard carrying the ball and "initiating" the offense with a snappy pass leading to a pick-and-pop or dribble-penetration kicking to an open 3-point shooter. Hell, the Lakers don't even call their Point Guard a "Point Guard" — he is the "Lead Guard" in Philspeak... Instead, the rebounder outlets to a ball-carrier of opportunity — who may or may not be the Point Guard. This ball-carrier often initiates the offense with an entry pass to the low post, which leads moving read-and-react passes on one side of the court or the other. Rather than perimeter passes hopefully ending in an open look at 3, the Laker offensive approach is based upon the 2-point shot — the closer and higher percentage, the better. The offense also tires to make sure the ball gets into The Superstar's hands and letting him either shoot lights-out or pass to exploit the double-team, to be sure.
Let's look at Point Guard Derek Fisher's Assist stats, shall we? In 22 playoff games (he was suspended a game for laying THIS HIT on Houston's chippy clutch-and-grabbing Power Forward Luis Scola), Fisher averaged 2.2 assists in nearly 29 minutes of action. In the 5 games of the finals, make that 1.8 assists per game in nearly 36 minutes of action. Such numbers are not to be confused with those of Chris Paul, eh?
Nor is Fisher regarded as a premier perimeter stopper, exhibiting slower-than-average lateral footspeed. During the 2nd Round series against the Houston Rockets, lightning quick PG Aaron Brooks played Fisher like a 2-string banjo. The Lakers lived to tell the tale.
What's the point, if you are the Portland Trailblazers or a fan of the Portland Trailblazers? 1. If you don't have a PG that can run your preconceived offense, change the offense. There is no reason a team has to run everything offensively through a single person at the top of the key. It is boring, it is predictable, and it is easy for the opposition to scheme against it in a long series. 2. There is no objective reason that a designated PG has to carry the ball. Admittedly, this observation might come as news to former PG McMillan and former PG Pritchard, but it is true nonetheless. Varying the ball carrier makes it harder for the defense to trap and easier for the offense to run. 3. A team can win it all in the NBA without a premier Point Guard. The teams built around superstar Point Guards — the Utah Jazz of Deron Williams, the New Orleans Hornets of Chris Paul — fell early and hard in these playoffs. It was the teams buit around superstars at other positions — the teams featuring Small Forwards Carmelo Anthony and Lebron James, Shooting Guard Kobe Bryant, Center Dwight Howard — that had success in the playoffs.
6. Championship teams are able to play well in the paint. You've gotta be big up front, plain and simple. There is no substitute for length. One thing the Lakers have that is shared by few teams in the NBA are two legitimate 7-footers who can score the ball in the paint, with an ultra-athletic 6'10" sixth man that can run the floor with the best of them. The number of teams that can match up directly with this Assault of the Bigs is few. Fortunately, the Portland Trail Blazers are among these teams — or will be shortly with the addition of the final piece to the front line puzzle, a backup 4 that can mash.
The NBA Finals was a classic matchup of Phil Jackson's "hit-em-low and let Kobe pop the midrange jumpers" approach against a team whose offense is predicated upon hammering shot after shot after shot from beyond the arc. We all know how it turned out — in the most nerve-wracking of game situations, against attentive defense, the long bombers went cold. The only game that Orlando won was their Game 3 exhibition of midrange jumper acumen, in which they nailed an astonishing 62.5% of their shots to set a new NBA Finals record.
Doubt me? Spend a few minutes refreshing your memory with this video of 2008-09 NBA Finals highlights, painful though it may be to watch the much-loathed purple team win, and notice where the damage is done. Down low, down low, down low, down low... Again and again, the blood is let with body blows in the paint, interspersed with critical 3-point makes, such as Derek Fisher's game-tier and overtime dagger in Game 4.
The Blazers must learn to get the ball to the rim with authority against any team in any building under any circumstances in order to turn good performance into great achievement. They have the personnel to make this happen. Now it becomes a matter of coaching, game experience, and self-assurance that they can get this done on the biggest stage imaginable.
7. Don't stress too much about the young Center's foul difficulties. One thing I particularly enjoyed about interrelating with hardcore Laker fans vs. hardcore Blazer fans is the way they never put up whiny excuses for the quick hook given every night to their particular Human Foul Machine, Andrew Bynum, he of next year's $12.5 Million contract. It didn't matter that Bynum was coming off two straight seasons of knee surgery, it didn't matter that he is just 22 years old and that he has started fewer regular season NBA games in his entire career (128) than Kobe Bryant had started in the playoffs prior to this year's run (152). There was none of this "boo hoo, he's young, he's been injured, just wait he's able to play 40 minutes and score 25 points a night, THEN we'll be World Champions..."
He stepped on the floor. He picked up his fouls. There was bitching about the perceived bad calls and acknowledgement of the perceived good calls. He left the floor and the Lakers got along with life.
Championship teams can not be obsessed with the prospective possible future potential of this or that player maybe someday eventually. Winning an NBA title is about living in the moment and maximizing in the present. If the still-young-and-learning Human Foul Machine picked up 2 quickies and headed for the bench, the Lakers quickly and seamlessly moved on to Plan B.
And therein lies the rub. There must be a Plan B for the young, foul-prone Center — not just this year, not just next year, but for the foreseeable future. Center is at its root a defensive position, guarding the goal with size and strength, using body work to deny the opposition low post position, using quickness and technique and physicality to garner rebounds. Fouls happen and injuries happen. It is an inevitable part of the game. Whereas a team can fake it at the perimeter positions, riding a starter for 40+ minutes, in the real world of the NBA, there absolutely, positively must be depth at the Center position. Even the Orlando Magic, who have built their team around the NBA's top young Center, All-World rebounder Dwight Howard, had a capable backup available in the person of Marcin Gortat.
The Lakers have a gifted combo Center-Forward, Pau Gasol — a man who is expected to rack up 15 points and capable of putting up 25. The Blazers have an outstanding defender and rebounder, Joel Przybilla, as their alternate when the young Human Foul Machine leaves the floor. On the offensive end he is expected to score maybe 6 points and capable of 12 or 14. The implication here is that the other low post player on the Blazers' roster, LeMarcus Aldridge, must really step up his game in the paint when Oden leaves the floor for the Blazers to remain effective in a Plan B situation.
The key to the Lakers' success down low wasn't Andrew Bynum, it was Pau Gasol. By the same token, the key to the Blazers winning a title isn't some implausible scenario in which Greg Oden can be counted upon to stay on the floor for 38 minutes and to score 25 points every night; it is Greg Oden being able to give 20 or 25 aggressive, effective minutes and LMA being able to expand his low post presence on the offensive end in Greg's absence.
8. "Playoff experience" doesn't mean being old or having played in lots of first round games before. It means nothing more or less than the ability to perform under pressure. Panic kills. Laker Head Coach Phil Jackson is no great x's-and-o's floor general. Quite the opposite. His faith in certain players, allowing them floor time they seemingly do not deserve, can be infuriating. Jackson is also prone to letting his team play through seemingly catastrophic opening runs by the opposition, advocating the philosophy that "NBA games are never won in the 1st Quarter."
It is facile to say that Phil Jackson's 10 World Championships have fallen to him because he had the great fortune of having the two greatest Scoring Guards of this generation on his various teams. Superstars alone, magnificence in isolation, does not win the shiny rings. Ask "Coach of the Year" Mike Brown, he of the Lebron James Franchise, about that idea sometime if you don't believe me.
No, winning in the playoffs requires not masterful floor generalship, not astute substitutions from an ultra-deep 10 man roster — it requires the team to buy into a mentality of winning and to be able to control their emotions so as to perform at a high level under extreme pressure.
In the 2008-09 NBA Finals, the steady hand of Coach Phil Jackson won the day, and the frenzied substitutions and micromanagement of Orlando Head Coach Stan Van Gundy came up wanting. In one of the more astute tweets of the year, former Laker and former Magic big man Shaquille O'Neal, observed, "When the general doesn't panic, the troops don't panic." And there in lies the essence of Phil Jackson's greatness as a coach — the ability to enable his charges to perform at a high level under the media hysterics of the NBA Playoffs.
But it is not just the venerable, grizzled 64 year old coach or the four-time World Champion Laker Guard tandem that exhibited playoff moxie. Hemingwayesque "grace under pressure" was shown in spades by Small Forward Trevor Ariza, a 23 year old who cut his teeth in the UCLA basketball mill before completing short and unhappy stints in New York and Orlando. In the pressure-packed NBA Finals Ariza, far and away the best perimeter defender on the Lakers team, was given the assignment of stopping the most deadly scorer on the Magic team, the 6'10" Hedo Turkoglu[was: Power Forward-In-Name-Only Rashard Lewis]. He did a magnificent job.
Ariza made game-turning steals in the Western Conference Finals against Denver. He did a fantastic job neutralizing Denver's big guns with his steady defensive pressure. In the Finals, Ariza went on to hit critical shots which powered key Laker runs in Games 4 and 5.
Playoff performance has little to do with the simplistic measures of "experience" like chronological age and the number of playoff games played. Instead, it has a great deal to do the mastery an athlete has over their own body, their ability to perform at peak levels against aggressive opposition without truncating their game through a paralyzing fear of taking risks. Champions must know how to deal with both the physiological impact of pressure and the psychological aspect of pressure. They do not choke; moreover, just as importantly, they are not afraid of choking. They believe.
The 2008-09 NBA season was about a Laker team that knew what they wanted and who ultimately followed the path to get there.
The metaphorical window is now open for Portland to follow their own particular path to the same concrete end — an NBA Championship.
41 recs |
193 comments
Comments
I want to say that I officially hate SBN's autolink function, which ran despite my attempting to turn it off by "unlinking."
I have no idea what they think they are trying to accomplish with that crap.
The end.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 22, 2009 8:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Still a very nice post
I like what Houston GM Daryl Morey said about BRoy. To paraphrase, he was surprised how easy Roy was still scoring while covered by Battier and/or Artest. While maybe a notch below superduperstar I guess we have that point covered. Now we need to get that second wing/backcourt scorer, and preferably the the mentioned inside scoring/rebounding presence so “Plan Roy” is not the only plan in place. The latter could be LaMarcus or Greg or both. The consistent wing scorer on the Blazers next to Roy remains to be determined – maybe he is there maybe he is not. Orlando has three. The Lakers distribute that load on Kobe and role players with a stronger focus on the inside scorers aided by being able to shift the pressure around the circle with the triangle offense.
P.S.: You can go back with the edit function and “break” all the links and it will remember, but it’s work and it’s stupid.
by Norsktroll on Jun 22, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
took my forever to unlink all of the names on the history post.
proud hinrichsheeple
by Cablinasian on Jun 22, 2009 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
there are stupid fans of every team in the league, even the Blazers.
Howdy!!
The cowards never started
The weak died along the way
Only the strong survived
They were the Trailblazers
by lukeyhere on Jun 22, 2009 8:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
“Playoff experience” doesn’t mean being old or having played in lots of first round games before. It means nothing more or less than the ability to perform under pressure.
The biggest reason I’m ready for Steve to move on. He choked pretty bad in the playoff road games.
Timbo, just an FYI. Brandon Roy as good a playoffs as Kobe Bryant. The raw stats are skewed the number of shots Kobe takes and the pace at which the Lakers play. Add into the equation that Roy faced only Houston, a tough defensive squad, and his statistics are even more impressive.
proud hinrichsheeple
by Cablinasian on Jun 22, 2009 8:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't worry about Brandon. I worry about LMA and whomever the SF is... Those are the guys that will win or lose it.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 22, 2009 8:39 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
LMA had a PER roughly equivalent to his season average in the playoffs. He didn’t choke or anything of that nature.
Batum is a question mark, but was very strong statistically.
Plus, the SF is often Brandon, with Rudy at the 2. That lineup has been ridiculously effective in the past.
proud hinrichsheeple
by Cablinasian on Jun 22, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please refer to point #2
if and when the Blazers need to deal or let go Outlaw, Webster, Bayless, Rudy, Joel, Blake, Sergio, and Batum to upgrade the starting five.
by bad karma on Jun 22, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
See point #6
Joel stays. It’s incredibly hard to find good 7 footers. Everyone else though is, gulp, up to be traded for the right price. No matter how much I like them.
by KitIsh on Jun 22, 2009 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Centers are very rare commodities. And very important.
I wish Joel could score better. He’s first rate as a rebounder and a defender, which makes him a stellar #2 guy at least…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 22, 2009 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Point #5
Not to forget the bulls last 3 championships, the jordan, harper backcourt was one of the greatest to not feature a point guard.
by calebEOC on Jun 22, 2009 8:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would love it if
the Blazers would make the extra interior pass more often.
What does a Blazer do? He blazes! Where? Up the trail. Why? Portland dunks the ball! Believe RubiOden will happen.
by by on Jun 23, 2009 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's easier to make that pass if someone else would cut to the rim
that cutter can be Rudy, Webster, trout, Lma, Bayless or Oden, I don’t care who. i just want someone else to move towards the rim along with Roy on occasion.
by NWfan on Jun 23, 2009 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interior passes
Absolutely agree. That takes best advantage of Oden’s presence, and even Przybilla can catch and score now.
I thought that was the secret to beating Houston. What the Blazers did was bump into Yao in the paint, then pass out to the perimeter for a jump shot. I wanted to see Roy/Blake/Rudy/Sergio drive in, draw Yao out to them, maybe 10 or 12 feet from the basket, and then thread it around him to one of the bigs in the paint. That never happened. That’s a lot of points they gave up because of intimidation.
Sticking up for Travis Outlaw since 2008 and Steve Blake since two weeks ago.
by Kaboomm on Jun 23, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is BEdge a L*kers site now?
Two LA-champion themed posts at once feels excessive.
But well done on the post. I cannot possible rec this and still feel good about my twisted relationship with my own boyhood team. But well done… for a L.kerfanboy
"...the primary focus of all obstacles is to induce labor, so progression can be born." - LiL C
by idoltime on Jun 22, 2009 8:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Is Timbo a teenage girl??
and if so, why didn’t he include this info in the post?
"You're welcome friend
I love you."
- Tom "Dragline" inHawaii
by 92wastheyear on Jun 23, 2009 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with some of these points but
We did not have to use the name of the team that shall not be named. We as a community are better than this and I must call foul. No one should EVER praise that team that can’t even get all the fans in their own city. if you want to talk like this I-5 also goes south. I would be willing to even give you the gas money.
+1 for being honest what the Blazers need to do to win it all
FLAG FOR LANGUAGE AND TREASON!!!
Bring back Franz Bread Cards!
by newbergfan on Jun 22, 2009 9:27 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Rec
Chuckling
If you ever hear of someone punching out a girl scout and stealing her Samoas, it was me
- Mortimer
by Clevelander among roses on Jun 22, 2009 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I very much agree that being a "deep" team is not important in the playoffs
But I think it is important during the regular season. Wear and tear will make coaches limit the starter’s minutes during the regular season, but during the 2nd season the starters play until they’re unable to go.
If you ever hear of someone punching out a girl scout and stealing her Samoas, it was me
- Mortimer
by Clevelander among roses on Jun 22, 2009 10:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
yes
Depth is good to keep legs fresh for 81 games, but there needs to be a defined, short rotation for playoff basketball. There was a good article on ESPN before the playoffs started (probably Hollinger) that measured bench minutes and production for finals teams in the regular season and in the playoffs. It showed conclusively that benches don’t get used in the playoffs anywhere near as much as in the regular season and those teams went to the finals.
Our depth is a great asset, just ask Chris Paul if he’d like some more depth, but it doesn’t win playoff games.
I think one of our problems is a lack of guys who can effectively play 2 positions. Roy can act like a PG but can’t defend an opposing PG. Roy is an okay option at SF in a 3 guard lineup. Rudy is just a SG. Oden/Przy are a great center tandem but neither can play PF and having them both on the court is a (very) short term lineup option. Aldridge gets dominated at Center. Outlaw can play PF in a small ball lineup effectively. We don’t have a guy like Lebron who can play the 2, 3 and 4 on both ends. We don’t have a guy like Odom who even for all his inconsistency can play a point forward position as well as PF and occasionally center.
So we end up playing a larger rotation because our key back ups can only play one position, Przy at center and Rudy at SG.
Sorry for rambling
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 22, 2009 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also believe this, pretty much. You don't get to 60+ wins without some capable backups, I reckon...
I’m not quite sure how the Lakers pulled it off, frankly — the Bynum injury was their only critical one and they got some good minutes out of DJ Mbenga and Josh Powell in his absence, two guys who never really sniffed the floor in the playoffs (very limited time for Powell, nothing for DJ…).
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 22, 2009 11:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Farmar was down for a long stretch, too, come to think of it. That makes two injuries...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 22, 2009 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Lakers were able to play Farmar, Bynum, Vujacic, et al
a lot in the other regular-season because the Lakers weren’t playing a playoff team every night.
by MiledAnimal on Jun 23, 2009 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good read Timbo and I read it all
But if Kobe makes 30 mil a year on his next contract and the cap is less than 60 how is that going to work without an infusion of D league minimum wage scrubs?
by southern oregon on Jun 22, 2009 10:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Lakers are doomed by the salary cap rules, even if Kobe rolls over at his same rate. Pau is $17+M and Bynum heading fast for $15M and if they resign Odom and Ariza at anything near the market rate, they're already into the luxury tax...
Even if they manage to MAINTAIN, to retain Odom and Ariza, they’re trapped into just holding the hand they’ve been dealt, which will decline in value over time.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 22, 2009 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I can think about when reading this post
is how well the Blazers match-up with the NBA champions.
by BlazerTag on Jun 22, 2009 10:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Excellent Post
Definitely punctuates why we need to cash in on our chips (depth, cap space, picks) to upgrade our starting lineup significantly rather than marginally. (and despite many arguments for Hinrich, I consider him a marginal upgrade at best)
by xedubx on Jun 22, 2009 10:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
serious question
what do you view as a significant (attainable) upgrade at either the PG or SF position?
I’m not a big fan of Hinrich, but as far as readily available replacements for Blake, he’s a great option.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 22, 2009 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My read is that we shouldn't stress about the PG at all, Blake is fine and Rex will be fine. The key is getting LMA to play low and making sure there is a backup 4 that can mash so that there is always a low post threat, no matter the foul situation.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 22, 2009 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
might as well get Hinrich, though, just for the defensive improvement. If there’s a chance to get better, the team might as well just do it.
proud hinrichsheeple
by Cablinasian on Jun 22, 2009 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how many back up 4's can get in the post in the NBA?
Not many it seems to me. Lakers were lucky because they had a guy in Pau that could play both, so their backup 4 was a starting 4 on any other team and could post up.
Let me try to think of some back up PFs…Landry maybe? He’s pretty ideal for a backup 4 imo. It’s funny if you look down the PF scoring list…everyone is a gd 3 point shooter.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
by Justin N. on Jun 23, 2009 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
An interesting point indeed
I read that part of you post. However, I was asking xedubx his opinion because he is one of the few people around here that doesn’t want hinrich.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 23, 2009 12:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're simplifying too much with the PG thing
It’s less that PG doesn’t matter and more that as long as you have 4 other guys playing at an extremely high level, you can get by with largely a stiff at the fifth position. I know you’ll counter with Bynum making it two stiffs, but realistically, Gasol was playing most of the the center minutes, and he was easily one of the best three “centers” in the game, and Odom finally played up to his talent, and Ariza played out of his mind, which meant you had 4 guys on the court for 30+ mpg playing at a high level.
I could just as easily point out the Spurs titles as evidence that you shouldn’t stress about a C/PF because Rasho and Oberto are pretty terrible, but the commonality between them is that they were stacked at the other 4 positions with Duncan, Manu, Parker, and Bowen. Isolating PG as unimportant just because the Lakers worst player happened to play there is making a pretty huge leap.
by Royster on Jun 23, 2009 7:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post, well presented
I see the first job of PTB is to steal Ariza away for our starting 3 with Batum as a backup (give up TO and Webster for that?). Helps us, hurts them.
As for another penetrator, I wish that Bayless was given the chance to penetrate and either score or rack up a foul against Houston. He doesn’t have to handle the ball much with BRoy on the floor. I don’t think Houston could have stopped him any more than they stopped Roy. Maybe he’ll get that chance this next season.
To summarize: Wade too quick, Kobe too skilled, LeBron too physical - Batum
by Ltlgto on Jun 23, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bayless
I wish that Bayless was given the chance to penetrate and either score or rack up a foul against Houston. He doesn’t have to handle the ball much with BRoy on the floor.
The reason he didn’t get a chance is because he is very poor at working off the ball, not a great shooter & didn’t look like much better on defense. I think McMillan would have played him if he was a Rondo like defender, but didn’t have the offensive game to match(yet). We will have to see how he improves these things this summer, if he does he will get more opportunities.
Patience :)
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 26, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
significant and attainable
I think Dre Miller fits both, as well as Steve Nash.
With the Spurs trade, I think it’s obvious what the economy is doing to the NBA in regards to trade dynamics. It’s no longer true that to get talent, you have to give talent. You can also get talent if you can help the other team financially.
With this in mind, I think the fair trade for Hinrich at this point is straight up with Blake. Chicago gets the financial savings and a veteran that produces at 80% of what Kirk produces at less than half the cost. The problem is, I’d rather have 80% of Hinrich at half the cost than 100% of what Hinrich brings at 10 million per year. In the current market, I think lot better opportunities are available and Spurs trade prove it. IMO, guys like Nash are in play for a significant discount in terms of talent for financial relief. (also the added benefit of Nash being expiring contract) Why not get a significant upgrade instead of a marginal one? Why not go after Rondo and Allen especially with Allen set to expire?
by xedubx on Jun 23, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
fantastic Post
Just wanted to give some love to a well written opinion piece.
I aswell got to see many laker games and I cant help but feel like this championship was won with Basketball I.Q.
.
Kobe – pretty much the unanimous pick as the most skilled player…….by the players
Lamar Odom – maybe the most complete game of anyone his size playing his position(s)
Pau Gasol – Ditto
having three guys on the court who could have the offense run through them is remarkable.
We really just have one.
by DropstepJ on Jun 22, 2009 11:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
LMA is coming along. The key to the title is him and Roy and making sure the offense flows through them.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 22, 2009 11:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, the key to a title is to not be a mediocre defensive team anymore.
the key is for Oden to be a presence inside and for the GM and Coach to find a way to get some competent perimeter defense going.
Currently playing the role of Phoenix Suns GM Steve Kerr in the 2009 BlazersEdge Mock Draft.
by jksnake99 on Jun 22, 2009 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blirk Minerick.
proud hinrichsheeple
by Cablinasian on Jun 22, 2009 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You've inadvertantly suggested we should send Joel to Toronto
as part of a package for Chris Bosh, who would then join Oden and Aldridge as one-third of a three-headed center-power forward hydra.
by MiledAnimal on Jun 23, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh C'mon
The thing you liked about the Lakers playoff run is You got to do main page articles. Tell the truth did Kobe give you an exclusive your going to run on silver screen and roll later this summer.
jk
I try to help with everything," Fernandez said. "If the coach says go rebound, I go rebound. I work for the team.
""If I'm playing this game to get media and attention, I shouldn't be here," Aldridge said. "I'm here to play basketball, and do what I can do to help this team win."
His stare became blank. It was apparent he was back in that place, on the Rose Garden's logo, picking up Aaron Brooks as the crowd nervously roared.
by Dragonage on Jun 22, 2009 11:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
chronic Foulosis Odeneri
is that when your farts smell like Greg Oden?
"So, then, I was like, it'd be really dirty if I put up 42. So I did!" -Brandon Roy, post-game comments after game 2 of the first round of the 2009 NBA Playoffs
by 5212872 on Jun 23, 2009 12:13 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice post.
The importance of the Point Guard position is highly overrated.
Shouldn’t that be, “The importance of the Point Guard position is highly overrated IN PHIL JACKSON’S SYSTEM.” It seems like the triangle offense would change things. If you factor out teams that Jackson coached, the majority of championships in the past 20 years have been won with an all-star caliber PG at the helm.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 23, 2009 12:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
1989-2009
Player-Championships
Isiah Thomas -2
Tony Parker -3
Chauncy Billups-1
Rajon Rondo-1
Kenny Smith-2
Avery Johnson-1
were the PGs for non Phil Jackson championship teams. 6 championships to 4 for all stars (bold) vs. non all stars. Isiah Thomas is the only point guard to earn an all star selection before leading his team to a title. Parker and Billups were selected as all stars after winning the championship. That changes the ratio to 3 trophies won with an all star vs. 7 without.
We could argue the exact meaning of “all star caliber” but I think this is the most cut and dry approach: all star prior to winning.
I do agree that it is important to mention the triangle offense when you talk about the Lakers not needing an elite point guard, but my basic argument remains the same: point guards don’t win championships.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 23, 2009 1:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah.
That’s why I said “all-star caliber”. Tony Parker and Chauncy Billups were two of the best point guards in the league even if they were underrated before they won a championship.
Fisher’s success does nothing to prove that the “importance of a PG is overrated.” The Celtics couldn’t have won it all without Rondo, the Magic would have had a much better chance with a healthy Jameer Nelson, and the Blazers probably can’t win it all with a guy like Steve Blake.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 23, 2009 2:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
I think the 2008 Celtics would have been fine with just about anyone at point guard. The 2009 Celtics desperately needed Rondo, though. Even if we include Parker and Billups we still have to ask why there are only 3 all star point guards with rings in the last 20 years. Furthermore, I’d argue that Parker didn’t lead the Spurs to those first 2 rings, Duncan did.
The Blazers could win with Blake as the PG. It’s about quality talent and the other positions. If Oden is beasting a 14-11-2, Aldridge is putting up his solid 18-7, Roy is his usual magnificent self and we’ve got our Bowen/Battier/Ariza type guy at the SF (Batum or Martell) hitting 3s and playing great defense it shouldn’t matter that Steve Blake is making the entry pass.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 23, 2009 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The all time list looks something like this.
Elite Point Guards
Bob Cousy: 6 titles
Magic Johnson: 5 titles
Tony Parker: 3 titles
Walt Frazier: 2 titles
Isaiah Thomas: 2 titles
Oscar Robertson: 1 title
Tiny Archibald: 1 title
Chauncy Billups: 1 title
Maurice Cheeks: 1 titleRole Point Guards (adjusted for Phil Jackson)
Ron Harper 5x
Steve Kerr 5x
BJ Armstrong 3x
Derick Fisher 3x
Kenny Smith 2x
Avery Johnson 1x
Rajon Rondo 1x
Jason Williams 1x
Lionel Hollins 1x
Tom Henderson 1x
I’m sure I’ve missed some, but the point is, unless you play in Phil Jackson’s system it’s very important that you have an elite PG running your team. What’s really scary is that I would be super pumped to have most of those role players instead of Blake. If the Blazers want any shot at winning a title they either have to hire Phil or get a legit PG.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 23, 2009 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fisher has 4.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 23, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did the Lakers win?
I might be in denial.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 23, 2009 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kerr shouldn't even be on the latter list
If we’re talking about starting PGs. I don’t see why we should start factoring in backups to any list of “championship” PGs. And PJ has 10 rings, so the Harper, Armstrong, Fisher, Paxson combo should only account for 10 total.
Even if you completely discount Cousy’s rings and leave the triangle ones in the count, it’s still 17 “role PG” rings to 16 “elite PGs” rings. And given that Hollins made the AS team the next year, calling him a “role PG” is understating how good he was.
by Royster on Jun 23, 2009 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which means half of teams still had elite PGs
That’s pretty high to just discount needing a PG.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And half the teams were coached by phil jackson hahahaha
What half are we on?
Patience :)
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 26, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Homer.
And given that Hollins made the AS team the next year, calling him a "role PG" is understating how good he was.
Just kidding. Yeah, I’m trying to be conservative so I didn’t stick Hollins in there with the elites. He’s borderline but still probably better than any PG we’ve had since… Porter?
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 23, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rod had his moments
although Hollins was probably still better.
Of course, we’d be negligent to neglect the incredible contributions of Erick Barkley.
by Royster on Jun 23, 2009 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder what the ratio for other postions is like
Does anyone want to go check every championship team to see what positions had all stars and total it all up?
I’d be interested to know what position has the most all star selections from the pool of championship teams.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_champions
I’m going to say center. Russel, Wilt, Walton, Shaq, Duncan, Kareem, Parish etc
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 23, 2009 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Center dominates everything
The rest is pretty evenly distributed. SG comes in second for number of times, but isn’t super great for number of players. (Blame Jordan being the go to guy 6 times.)
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the reason we were initally talking about the last 20 years
is that the game has changed so much. I think going back further than Magic puts us in a style of basketball very different than the kind played today. It’s important to note how many of the championships won by elite PGs happened over 25 years ago. Cousy, Frazier and The Big O account for 9 titles all before 1980.
Only 13 titles remain in a span of nearly 30 years, 5 of which were won by Magic who is one of the greatest players of all time. Titles won by elite PGs not named Magic Johnson are a lot harder to come by. Furthermore, I would argue that Tony Parker didn’t exactly lead his team in that first championship. He struggled for most of the playoffs.
The further ahead in time we go the less teams have needed/used an elite PG to win a championship.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 23, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The further ahead in time we go the less teams have needed/used an elite PG to win a championship.
I’m not sure that will be true in the future. Since the new hand-check rules came into play it seems like speedy point guards are starting to become more valuable.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 23, 2009 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Titles won by shooting guards are even more uncommon in the same period.
6 for Jordan, 1 for Wade, and now 1 for Kobe.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
my list was since 1980
http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/3/12/795352/what-makes-a-winning-team
The top 3 players on each team (especially third) is up for some debate, but this should be close enough.
Best 2nd Best 3rd Best
C- 8 (4) C- 5 (4) C- 4 (3)
PF- 5 (2) PF- 2 (2) PF- 10 (6)
SF- 3 (1) SF- 8 (3) SF- 6 (4)
SG- 7 (2) SG- 9 (5) SG- 6 (4)
PG- 6 (3) PG- 5 (2) PG- 3 (2)
The first is the raw number and the second is the number of unique players. I also didn’t just base this on NBA finals MVP or anything, hence why Duncan is ahead of Parker.
11 Centers on 19 teams were a top 3 player out of the 29 years.
10 PFs on 17 teams were a top 3 player out of the 29 years. (10 were third man though.)
8 SFs on 17 teams were a top 3 player out of the 29 years.
11 SGs on 22 teams were a top 3 player out of the 29 years.
Only 7 PGs on 14 teams were a top 3 player out of the 29 years.
So PG is slightly behind the rest of the crew, BUT 3 DIFFERENT PGs have led their teams to titles. This is more than any other position except Center can boast. (Actually, if you add Kobe in this year then SGs now have 3 different players as well.)
Only 1 SF and 2 PFs have ever led their teams to titles. One Power Forward is Duncan, and I’m not 100% sure that I should have even classified him as a PF outside of the year with David. The other is Kevin Garnett and some people will argue that Pierce was actually the more valuable player.
Basically, Power Forwards make good third men, but in terms of being a 1-2 guy in winning a title, only Duncan/KG/McHale/Thorpe made the list at all against Magic/Thomas/Billups/Parker for PGs.
Small forwards are also less important. Bird led his team to titles, Worth/Pippen/Pierce were second men on title teams.
So…
Centers > SGs > The other 3 in winning titles. PF/SF have slightly more raw numbers than PGs, but PGs have more number 1 guys.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also worth noting
Only 1 team since 1988 has won a title without a SG as one of their big 3. (Spurs with Duncan/Robinson/Elliot.)
Since 1988 you could even argue that a SG is more important than a Center. From 80-87 Centers are on the list 3,3,2 times. SGs are on the list 0,0,1 times. This era is what gives Centers the edge. Since, the edge goes to SG (unless you move Duncan to center.)
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There ya go.
So…
Centers > SGs > The other 3 in winning titles.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 24, 2009 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now how would things break out if you considered there were 3 positions?
Bigs (4/5)
Wings (2/3)
Points (1)
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 24, 2009 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My theory is that an average-competent Point is sufficient — titles are won with Bigs and Wings.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 24, 2009 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For example: Rajon Rondo. Derek Fisher...
You don’t need Chris Paul…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 24, 2009 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm that's an unfair comparison
Bigs = 2 positions
Wings = 2 positions
PG = 1 position
Naturally bigs/wings will have more players. If you broke it down like All-Star voting and went
Guards
Forwards
Centers
Then guards is now number 1 and forwards/centers are obsolete.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understood. Double value the PGs.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 24, 2009 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So edit your post?
To say you don’t need forwards or PGs to win titles?
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Skewed by the glut of great SGs to enter the league since the early '80s
since then, we’ve seen 6 of the top 10 SGs ever (according to ESPN, including the top two of all time, both of which accounted for a full ten of the titles on Zaig’s list.
Has there been a single PG since Magic that would be considered even remotely as good a PG as those guys were SGs?
Now, look at the SGs in the league 25 and under: Roy, Mayo (probably eventually a PG), Gordon. Compare that to the PGs under 25: Paul, Williams, Rondo, Rose, Harris, Westbrook, plus the ridiculous number of PGs in this draft. CP and Rose are the first PGs since Magic who could even be potentially considered on the level of Kobe/MJ.
It’s not that SGs win titles, and PGs don’t, it’s that the best players win titles, and for about 15 years now, the best players weren’t PGs. Judging by the talent in the league right now, it’s looking like that won’t be the case for long.
by Royster on Jun 24, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not that SGs win titles, and PGs don’t, it’s that the best players win titles
Spot on.
by lrh86 on Jun 24, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure I could come up with a list of great players
without a title. But I don’t think I need to in this audience.
It takes more that just a great player (at any position) to win.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 24, 2009 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post
One minor correction…it was Turkoglu who Ariza primarily defended, although he sometimes ended up guarding Lewis on switches.
by The Dude Abides on Jun 23, 2009 2:11 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I just figured out that mistake this morning at 4 AM and am going back to fix that. Good catch. I got sloppy at the end there after three mornings of writing...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 23, 2009 4:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very nice post.
It’s nearly impossible to overemphasize the important of Joel and getting a backup PF. We have length but could do with some more strength (beyond the center position). LMA bulking up/improving post skills to where he can play the role that Gasol did would be fantastic – they’re similar in physical skills and finesse abilities to some extent.
I think we should just cut out the phrase “playoff experience” anywhere it appears and replace it with “poise” or something similar.
by austinpwnz on Jun 23, 2009 3:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure how much can be gleaned from this championship run
As I am not a L*k*r fan, I have questions for timbo.
1. Given these characteristics, what is to account for recent L*k*r post-season exits in the post-Shaq era?
2. What is to account for the playoff success of the supposedly star-less Pistons earlier this decade?
3. Even though many may have pegged the Magic as severe underdogs in the Finals matchup, there were close games that the Magic arguably lost due to their weaknesses, not their opponent’s acumen. Are you writing this article if the Magic had pulled off their end of it?
I guess the above sounds more critical than I meant, so I leave it in the spirit of provocative rhetorical questions. I find myself more in agreement with your points than against it—especially the de-emphasis on getting a premier point guard and needing huge games from Oden. But non-anti-L*k*r posts here demand a little grumbling.
Honor Alaa Abdelnaby.
First in the NBA. At least alphabetically
by OhOhOden on Jun 23, 2009 4:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would like to field question 2
The Pistons used great team defense and a balanced scoring attack. They had 4 all stars the year they won the title. However, I think they had great timing. Look at the opponents they faced during their title run.
Bucks- I don’t even remember this team. Pistons won in 5
Nets- Kidd had a knee injury, Morning had his kidney problem
Pacers – Good team, but (old) Reggie Miller didn’t have enough
Lakers – Completely imploded in the finals, I’m sure Timbo could elaborate
I think I got my history right.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 23, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
my brief take
1. Post-Shaq. 2005- terrible terrible team with turnover, injuries. 2006- still rebuilding, one lucky shot from upsetting Suns. 2007- rebuilding and injured. 2008- made Finals, but ran into green buzzsaw and also did not defend well.
2. Agree with Magnum, adding that the 2004 Lakers despised each other and Malone got injured for the Finals.
3. Magic needed everything to break just right to win this one. If they hit the layup in Game 2, the Lakers (still) don’t come back in Game 3, they hang on in Game 4, then they go up 3-1 with one shot to win in Orlando or have to win in LA.
In reality and retrospect, the Lakers D shut down Superman and stopped Magic transition. They pretty handily won the series.
The alternate reality I think is more plausible is if the Lakers somehow drew the Blazers in the 09 playoffs, I think the Blazers win unless (1) they blink in Game 1, like vs Rockets, or (2) the Lakers gel sooner… The Lakers effort in the Houston series would surely not beat the Blazers.
From an outsider perspective, I think the Blazers need reliable inside post scoring and to take their D to a higher level to go all the way.
by Apricot on Jun 23, 2009 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's how I remember it. The Lakers lost that final
because Kobe wouldn’t pass to Shaq in the paint, who was being guarded in man coverage by Ben Wallace.
by MiledAnimal on Jun 23, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kobe shot in the 30%s in 4 of the 5 games
While taking almost double the shots that Shaq took. Shaq on the other hand shot his standard ridiculous percentages.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good thoughts and very well presented Timbo.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
by TwoDeep on Jun 23, 2009 4:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
REQ
GOOD post, less Lakers
"Knowledge will get you from A to B. Creativity will get you anywhere." Einstein
by Garden of ODEN on Jun 23, 2009 5:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Swell post
I don’t agree with you regarding Lakers fans though. Besides Timbo and my coworker, all the Lakers fans I have met did not know much about the NBA or even the Lakers. I bet 3 out of 10 Lakers fans could even list all the players on the Lakers roster. (I’m not being sarcastic.)
by tominhawaii on Jun 23, 2009 5:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would take it further
3-10 can’t name Lakers starters
"You're welcome friend
I love you."
- Tom "Dragline" inHawaii
by 92wastheyear on Jun 23, 2009 6:44 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Very well written.
What does a Blazer do? He blazes! Where? Up the trail. Why? Portland dunks the ball! Believe RubiOden will happen.
by by on Jun 23, 2009 7:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I applaud your effort
But there’s no way in Hell I’m going to read that much about the Lakers. I got queasy halfway through item 2, so I can only comment on item 1. I whole-heartedly agree with you on that, too, and I was worried about how Brandon would do against Battier and Artest in his first ever playoff series. I thought he stepped up to the plate and officially confirmed his superstar status, frankly. So, no worries there!
by fart on Jun 23, 2009 8:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Good post. I would disagree with some conclusions.
I think there’s more than one way to win, more than one way to put together a championship team. The superstar model is in some ways easiest if it works. But I think that top-quality, unselfish play at most positions can be as effective, or more so. Kobe can take over a game and score a bunch of points, but he is not a very efficient scorer. I’d rather have an unselfish player who doesn’t force things and can nevertheless score or make a big stop when the game is on the line. I’m talking about Brandon Roy.
Depth is more important for the 82-game regular season than the playoffs, it’s true. But again, I think there’s more than one way to do it. The championship Blazers were a deep team with a fast-breaking, motion offense. You have to have the right personnel to implement your strategy, as well as a willingness to think beyond the reigning dogmas of the day. I get more than a little tired of the endlessly repeated conventional wisdom that is uncritically embraced by everybody from coaches to U.S. Presidents.
I fully agree with your other points, regarding the home court advantage, importance of winning on the road, dominance of the paint, foul-trouble and depth at center, relative importance of the point guard, and playoff experience.
I should flag your post for calling all Blazer fans stupid, though.
"Just kidding"
by CatMan2 on Jun 23, 2009 9:17 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Disagree and Agree on some points.
1. Other teams had guys that performed like Superstars, they simply didn’t have a supporting cast that matched Kobe’s. Seriously. Take away the best player from Denver, Lakers, Magic, Cavs. Who wins between these four teams? I’d put my money on the Lakers pretty easily, with Denver in second. Now, if the Magic had a healthy Jameer Nelson they might win this category, but if they had a healthy Nelson they probably win the finals anyway. Kobe didn’t win this title, his supporting cast of Gasol/Odom/Ariza did.
2. I disagree. You’re saying Lakers beat Orlando without Odom coming off the bench? I say this isn’t true. Starters are more important in the playoffs than the regular season, but you still play an 8 man rotation. The Lakers could take Bynum or Gasol out and not lose a whole lot. The Magic… had just about the worst bench in the entire NBA and it showed.
3. Orlando won on the road back to back times and ignoring a total screwup at the end of game 2 would have nulled the Lakers home court in the finals. Frankly, Orlando blew the series themselves. They turned a 3-1 lead into a 1-3 dececit based 100% on things they did at the end of the games, not what the Lakers did. (And their 3/8 FT shooting was at home as well.)
4. Umm… obviously?
5. I disagree again. Healthy Nelson = title for Orlando more than likely. Rafer = 4-1 defeat. Nelson compeltely dismantled the Lakers during the regular season when he was healthy, and even with some low end PG Orlando still managed to make the finals. Didn’t Nick Van Excellent also point out that outside of Phil Jackson teams, only 1 team in the last 20 years has won the finals with a crappy PG?
6. Agree 100% here.
7. Wait, why don’t you stress your centers foul trouble? Oooooh it’s because you have Odom as your backup. If the Lakers didn’t have such a good bench player, Bynum’s foul trouble would have been bad. I do agree that it’d be cool if LMA could play 2 positions like Gasol, but we don’t have Gasol, we have LMA. We also don’t have Odom to bring off the bench to play PF so that LMA can move to the center spot. Basically, this comes down to the Lakers having more depth at their big positions than we do, which is counter to one of your earlier points.
8. We agree here. Playoff experience is a silly concept. Some guys will do good with pressure and some won’t. Roy was simply amazing in his second playoff game ever. Meanwhile other guys play 5-6 season and continue to be mediocre in the playoffs.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 9:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
We also don’t have Odom to bring off the bench to play PF so that LMA can move to the center spot.
Yet.
"The problem with tweeners is that sometimes they’re exactly what you need to plug the hole and sometimes they are the hole."
-LaughingJon
by appel82 on Jun 23, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When LMA can play low as effectively as Pau does, I think the leap to the last level is made.
He’s got the physical tools. Now it is coaching and WILL.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 23, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and practicing his handle
The lakers i have to say, as you pointed out, seem to like to have everyone on the court be above average ball handlers. Gasol through the legs on the break is a thing of beauty, for a basketball fan to watch.
"The problem with tweeners is that sometimes they’re exactly what you need to plug the hole and sometimes they are the hole."
-LaughingJon
by appel82 on Jun 23, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LMA's handle
Before last season, the buzz about Aldridge was that he had worked on ball handling and was going to leave defenders in the dust. And he did some of that early in the season — it was nice. But later, his game became more spin-and-shoot, which also worked. I’d love to see him move more with the ball, though.
Sticking up for Travis Outlaw since 2008 and Steve Blake since two weeks ago.
by Kaboomm on Jun 23, 2009 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he definately worked on his back to the basket moves and improved with a lot more variations that little baby hook or whatev toward the basket
His footwork is better, but yeah, i don’t recall him facing up very often, when he does it’s just usually a shot, never a drive. But he patterned his game after sheed right? so that’s that. He’s still pretty unstoppable when his jumper is falling, as are the blazers, damn jumpshooting teams, snark snark.
"The problem with tweeners is that sometimes they’re exactly what you need to plug the hole and sometimes they are the hole."
-LaughingJon
by appel82 on Jun 23, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is also 2 inches shorter than Gasol isn't he?
You can’t teach height!
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, maybe Marc is the 7'1 one.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's gotta suck, being seven feet tall
and still having to look-up at your kid brother.
by MiledAnimal on Jun 24, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree a healthy Jameer Nelson wins Orlando a title
Strenuously
Also Kobe was the best player in the league this season when you consider the overall body of work. Yes that includes Lebron. He was far and away better than any of the other superstars.
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Jun 23, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess we disagree on both those points then
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
With Playoff/Finals Experience, I don't think Orlando makes the same mistakes or misses the same shots
I think it does matter, and the rest of your post shows why. If Orlando hadn’t choked, they clearly had the momentum and the talent to beat win. They missed their 3’s, Courtney Lee missed the layup, they missed free throws…you get the picture. If Orlando made it back next year, I think they’d be a lot harder to beat.
Currently playing the role of the Atlanta Hawks GM in the Blazersedge.com 2009 NBA Mock Draft.
by hoopla-pdx on Jun 23, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"At Long Last" LOL
Excuse me, do these effectively hide my thunder?
by Samsara on Jun 23, 2009 10:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Very well written
I don’t disagree with any of your points.
However the importance of some points is stronger in the playoffs than the regular season. Depth, for example, is probably much more important in the long slow grind that is the 82 game NBA season. And that in turn, impacts home court advantage. Come playoff time, rotations tighten, and depth is not as important.
by antediluvian on Jun 23, 2009 10:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think this is a very good criticism. I'm still turning over in my head how the Lakers pulled it off in the regular season with the bench they were pushing this year...
I think a big part of it is that their bench wasn’t as bad early in the year as it was late in the year… Guys like Sasha and Luke went downhill as the year progressed.
Bynum was also becoming quite dominant prior to his injury; he was outstanding early and middling in the playoffs. During his absence they got good minutes out of Powell and Mbenga — which speaks to the need for depth, yes; or more specifically, the need for front line size and depth — which I am more comfortable endorsing…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 23, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I figure I can say this to you....
since no one else is listening.
The LAL have always been my second favorite team….from back in the skyhook days.
I hope Dave doesn’t ban me for that.
by antediluvian on Jun 23, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's a witch... buurrrn him!
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very intelligent and well thought out post but...
I gotta say I’m a little queezy from all the L@ker love.
I happen to agree that having a “star” PG is overrated at least as the NBA stacks up today. After all there were none of them left in the final two rounds. Of course that has alot to do with the make up of the individual teams. Nobody would argue that having CP3 on the L@kers would have cost them the championship.
I am on the fence about the depth issue. During the regular season injuries and inconsistency will happen and having 9-10 guys that can play at a high level seems necessary. The status quo is to shorten that bench in the playoffs but do you absolutely have to?.. If you are lucky enough to have little to no drop in production 9 deep isn’t that still an advantage?..
Anyway… Great Post… and I hope you never get a chance to brag about the L@kers again…
by Ilikeemall on Jun 23, 2009 11:14 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Billups isn't a star PG?
Nor is Mo Williams? (I agree here but a lot of people say he is.)
Not too many guys go ahead of Billups. Regardless let’s look at those final 4 teams and see their top players.
Kobe SG
Gasol PF/C
Odom SF/PF
Billups PG
Carmelo SF
Howard C
Lewis PF
Turk SF
Lebron SF
Mo PG
I’m seeing more quality PGs on that list than SGs. Sure, the SG won the title, but he also had the best of the second best guys from this list since Gasol >> Carmelo >= Lewis >>> Mo Williams. I see no evidence here that a PG isn’t important.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think when you run a certain sort of offense and your big man is a great passer, PG is less important
Context ftw
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Jun 23, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Context ftw?
Umm, the post is implying that we can learn these things from the Lakers. As in, that these Laker lessons translate to the rest of the NBA. They don’t.
Nick has clearly pointed out that a good PG DOES help win you titles.
The only point that can be learned here is that you can win a title without a good PG. Guess what, you can say the same about ANY position.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think everyone is missing the glaring point with this whole PG debate
What a star PG brings to a team is the ability to break down a defense, split double teams, and create open shots for his teammates. If those abilities are present in a different player, that doesn’t mean they aren’t crucial to a team’s success.
If a team doesn’t have a star PG, then they must have an elite ballhandler at either the SG or SF position. The only team I can really think of that has won titles without that ability from the perimeter was the 1999 Spurs, and that was a messed up season as it was, and there was such a glaring advantage in the frontcourt for San Antonio.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 23, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
great point there
I think that’s why we’ve seen a decline in how often an elite PG wins a championship. The transition to a less strict system for initiating the offense and ball handling duties (moving from primarily the point guard to basically any back court/wing player) has made elite PGs less important. Guys like Jordan, Pippen, Wade, Kobe, Lebron and plenty more can handle the ball and lead their team. Breaking down the defense, setting up the offense and precision passing are skills that can be distributed between a combination of players.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 23, 2009 11:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lakers are soft
What did I learn from the Lakers?
They are the same sorry ass club that lost to the Celtics last year. Unfortunately, no team was deep enough to stop Kobe.
Last year Kendrick Perkis and KG D’d up Odom and Pau and shut them down.
Between Kobe and Vujacic, I don’t know who is more unlikable. I think this championship was won based on lack of competition, instead of sheer domination.
"Oh yeah? You can Derelique my balls."
"I can Shavlick my own balls."
by Terry Gamble on Jun 23, 2009 12:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Orlando lost this series, the Lakers didn't win it.
Kobe tried to throw away home court advantage in game 2 with his selfish 1 on 4 play, but Lee screwed that up. The Lakers then tried to even the series up at 2-2, but Howard and Turk said, “No thanks, we’ll miss these freebies.”
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They lost it a year ago when they traded the Lakers Ariza for scrubs
And yeah, the Magic have to ask themselves why three 10 million per year guys are standing around and their rookie was the only one who managed to get open twice. Too bad he missed the shot one of which was very makable for an NBA player (think Rudy would have missed that?), but he shouldn’t have had to take the responsibility in the first place.
by Norsktroll on Jun 23, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't that sort of the problem when you can't go to your 'superstar' in the last five minutes of a game because he can't shoot FT?
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Jun 23, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm there was .6 seconds left
When your superstar is a 7 footer, you can’t really go to him that easily.
If you are talking about game 4, that was a fluke. Howard shot pretty well the entire series up to that point and Turk also missed 3/4, something he usually doesn’t do. If you believe in “choking” that was it, plain and simple.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That inbound play was amazing though
Kobe obviously expected Lee to be the last guy to get the ball because he got completely owned on that screen. Simply didn’t see it coming. That was the type of play that should have been looked at for ages, but instead ended in a blown layup. (With a goaltend of course.)
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The coach obviously had faith in Lee to make the shot
If Rudy could make that, I don’t see why Lee can’t make it. It was a great play, and it didn’t go down, sometimes that’s how the game goes.
Orlando has to ask themselves why they kept double-teaming Kobe Bryant when he was intent on going 1 on 5 to win the title, or why they couldn’t play a bigger lineup to stop Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom from owning the boards. Or maybe why their star player doesn’t know how to dribble the ball in the post, or make free throws.
That Steve Nash is exactly the same as Kirk Hinrich, but worse.
by NBA Observer on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 23, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Jackson is the greatest coach ever.
Nor do I think he is the greatest coach in the NBA right no.
But he did outcoach SVG in the finals.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has ten championships...
More than anyone else. How is he not the greatest coach in the NBA.
Come on, admit it, you don’t think so because of your hatred of the Lakers.
by lrh86 on Jun 23, 2009 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OMG!!!!
Horry has 8 rings, second best player of all time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously, having the most of something doesn’t automatically make you the best. I was so pissed off when NFL.com did a survey of best running back ever. Smith got like 25% of the vote. That same year Smith broke the NFL rushing record and NFL.com redid the poll and smith got like 65% of the vote. THAT ONE GIMPY SEASON DID NOT SUDDENLY MAKE HIM THE BEST EVER!
Numbers are nice and pretty, but are only half the story. He’s obviously a great coach, and as I said, he outcoached SVG, but all 10 of his titles were won with the best teams in the league. This means he doesn’t have to outcoach anyone, he just has to evencoach them or not get outcoached. Not getting outcoached in most of the years that he has the most talent is indeed an accomplishment, but it doesn’t automatically make him the greatest coach ever.
So, no, I will not admit that my hatred of the Lakers is why I say this. That is an insane conclusion since I think the 2nd/3rd best SGs of all time are Lakers, the best PG of all time is a Laker, and 2 of the top 3-4 Centers of all time are Lakers. Being a Laker doesn’t blind me to someone’s achievements, but neither do numbers that suddenly look pretty.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Horry has 8 rings, second best player of all time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is a big difference between a role player on a few championship teams and a coach who led 10 teams to NBA titles. Horrible argument.
Which coach won without having the best team in the league? Doesn’t winning the championship mean you were the best team in the league that year. No coach can win without great players. When Red won his nine titles he had the best team in the league(a league with eight teams).
Who do you believe to be the greatest coach ever and why?
by lrh86 on Jun 23, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe the question can be answered
And why.
1. There is no way to judge a coach properly unless you had the same guy coach the same team against the same competition. This only happens when a coach is fired mid season. One season sample sizes aren’t all that great.
2. No coach can win it all without good players. No coach can lose regularly with good players. (They can lose more than they should, but this Laker team couldn’t sport a losing record if I coached them.)
3. Coaches have upwards of 7-8 assistants these days plus trainers plus nutrition guys plus everything else. Make Jackson just had the best support here? I mean the guy isn’t in the best of healthy, he clearly couldn’t have the role the he used to.
4. The only stats that you can use for coaches are stats that the players create for them. The PLAYERS!
And no, not all titles are won by the best team in the league. That’s not even an argument unless you are willing to tell me that the Giants were actually a better team than the Patriots a few years back. I probably should change the term “best” to “most talented” team in the league to clarify that though.
If I had to pick a coach in the NBA right now to call the best, I’d go with Pop. He won 4 titles with very different teams. First he used Duncan/David, combining two crazy centers and making it work.
Then he won with Duncan and umm… chibi Parker. That team DID NOT have offense. Parker averaged under 16 a game and their third/fourth options were Jackson and Rose… Ginobli was a youngin and David was old and decrepit.
Title 3 was when Parker/Ginobli rounded out the big 3, but even then those guys weren’t superstars yet.
Title 4… well yeah, this team clearly had the most talented team in the NBA that year, but the other 3 titles I don’t think they actually did, I just think they made it work.
Can I prove that Pop made it work? Not really, and obviously he had Duncan for all 4 of them, but Duncan isn’t Jordan and Duncan isn’t Shaq. Parker or Ginobli also isn’t Pippen or Kobe. It’s an argument that can’t be solved outside of opinion.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So...
If you can’t tell me who the best coach in the league is, you also can’t tell me who it is not. Basically, what it comes down to is you don’t like the Lakers, therefore you don’t like Jackson, therefore you don’t think he is the greatest of all time when he is widely considered so by NBA analysts.
Also I agree Duncan isn’t Shaq, Duncan is better. I would much rather have Duncan in his prime than Shaq in his prime.
by lrh86 on Jun 24, 2009 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I prefer to remember the refs giving the championship to the Lakers
As I remember it, it was worse than the Mavericks/Heat series.
by tominhawaii on Jun 23, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The refs weren’t that bad, what do you mean the refs gave the championship to the Lakers? Obviously they gave it to them when during Game 4 in the 4th quarter + the majority of overtime they shot 0 free throws right? and Orlando got called for 2 fouls up to the point before the Flagrant on Pietrus. Clearly the refs just handed the Lakers the championship on a silver platter!
by shoothoop on Jun 23, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You just got tominhized
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This seems like something that someone who would never give the Lakers credit under any conditions might say
The 2008-2009 Lakers were pretty good, whether you like it or not.
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Jun 23, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously they were pretty good or they wouldn't have won a title
All Terry said is that they were the same team that couldn’t win it all last year being “pretty good.” This year they won for reasons outside of being a better team.
1. Be in the West where everyone is good, but no one else is elite.
2. Garnett goes bye bye, Celtics are out
3. Cavs lose to Magic, meaning Lakers get the home court.
4. Nelson comes back sub 100%, which arguably make the Magic worse.
5. Games 2 and 4 both go into overtime when Orlando should have won both in regulation.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It takes luck to win a title, too.
The trick is to put yourself in position where a bit of luck gets you over the top, and to require no more of it than your allotment.
by MiledAnimal on Jun 23, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some years
Other years you just have to avoid bad luck to your own team.
The only “luck” that Shaq needed was to stay healthy, same with Jordan.
The Lakers “luck” included other teams becoming unhealthy, being in a weaker conference, and having your toughest opponent knocked off by a terrible matchup.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 10:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the difference between say
Jordan’s Bulls or the early 00’s Lakers and the 08-09 Lakers is that the first 2 teams would have beaten anyone in the league in the finals no questions asked. I don’t think I can say the same thing about this Laker squad. If we wave our magic wand, make everyone on all the teams healthy and play the finals, I think Orlando takes them to 6 or 7, I think the Cavs win in 7 thanks to homecourt and I think the Celtics win in 7 also.
Basically, if I’m ranking NBA champions the 2009 Lakers are toward the bottom. They won and a ring is a ring, but it’s kinda “meh”.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 23, 2009 11:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, but...
I still think they had the most talent in the NBA they year… I just don’t think they’d have won it all with that talent against a healthy Orlando team or the Cavs. Why? I guess the main reason is that Kobe is a giant waste of his ridiculous talent and he can’t properly utilize Gasol. They won this year because Orlando took care of the dirty work for them and Orlando played like crap in the finals.
You put the Lakers as the 3 seed in the East thsi year and they don’t make it to the finals.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You care to explain how Kobe is a "giant waste of his ridiculous talent"
The guy is easily the second best shooting guard of all time and is also in the top ten players of all time conversation. The Lakers won this year because they were the best team. Orlando was in the finals because they were the best TEAM in the east.
by lrh86 on Jun 24, 2009 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lakers vs Detroit
If this isn’t enough info for you, oh well.
Lakers vs Boston also works I guess.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh...
How does that explain anything?
Detroit and Boston were both very amazing teams in the years that they won. That says nothing about Kobe’s talent or his abilities as a player.
by lrh86 on Jun 24, 2009 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the fact she's a Blazer fan and a Laker hater doesn't play in to her thinking........
I needed a good laugh this morning.
Thanks!
by DJ Bento Box on Jun 24, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I've been trying to tell her...
I am a Blazer fan and am in no way a Laker fan but I try to take emotions out of my arguments. Most Blazer fans can’t do this when talking about the Lakers. Not that I can blame them really, but at least admit your biases when arguing your point.
by lrh86 on Jun 24, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a L*ker fan, I don't worry about it.
As far as other team’s fans/Laker “haters” are concerned, we’re ALL bandwagon fans (which I’m assuming means because my favorite team is consistently successful and we don’t go through extended periods of failure we can’t be “real fans”), we always seem to “luck” in to our championships due to other teams injuries or a general lack of talent in the rest of the league and neither our coach (with 10 NBA championships and 1000+ wins) or our SG (with 4 NBA championships, 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles and 7 all-NBA 1st team awards) could possibly be considered “the greatest” because everything was handed to them or circumstances just worked out perfectly for them. Nothing was reall “earned”.
As a fan I’m used to it. It’s just the way it is.
by DJ Bento Box on Jun 24, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're both just wrong
1. I’m not a girl, if you guys read enough you’d understand this.
2. Only a fool cannot put bias aside when deciding something about a sports team.
Fact: I don’t like Shaq, I think he’s an arrogant punk and he was even a Laker!
Fact: I have stated that Shaq is the most dominant post Jordan player in the NBA to this point.
Fact: I said that the 2000-2002 Lakers were the best team in the league each of those years.
Fact: I’ve agreed that the Lakers have had the greatest program in the history of the NBA. The Celtics have one more title, but the Lakers have won more recently when it’s actually relevant. (I said this before this years finals, hence the more titles thing.)
Fact: I’ve agreed that Kobe is the 2nd or 3rd best SG of all time.
Using the tired argument that I don’t like the Lakers, thus I will say bad things about them is foolish and ignorant. You use that argument when you’ve got nothing else and it’s basically an Ad-Hom argument.
It’s funny how you make assumptions for me DJ even though I never said most of the stuff you accuse me of saying. You don’t even make an argument for why Phil is the greatest coach ever outside of the LOL TEN TITLES argument. When I bring up a counter argument to this you fall back on the “hater” argument. It’s sad, but I clearly can’t make you actually try and think any more than I can lrh.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh...
The Princess of Blazersedge
What else are we supposed to think. Usually a princess is female.
by lrh86 on Jun 24, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stick around for a while
And you’ll eventually pick up on my sig. Maybe it is time for a non inside joke one though.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe you should...
Especially if you’re going to get all pissy about people calling you a girl.
by lrh86 on Jun 24, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually didn't get pissy at all
“I’m not a girl, if you guys read enough you’d understand this.”
“And you’ll eventually pick up on my sig. Maybe it is time for a non inside joke one though.”
Not sure where the pissyness comes across here.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The 10 title argument is used only because you’re so quick to discount what it truly means.
What numbers can be given to you that you won’t find fault with?
Me: Over 1000+ regular season wins at a .700 win percentage?
You: Because he had “superstar players” it really doesn’t matter. Any coach could have won like that with teams that had Jordan, Shaq and Kobe.
Me: Over 200 playoff wins
You: They play more playoff games than they did years ago and again, with those players who couldn’t win like that?
Me: The ability to implement a system that puts the onus on passing and movement above individual playmaking and the ability to get manage, direct and appease some of the world’s most egotistical and deified athletes to play together and accept the system for the greater good.
You: ?
I personally don’t care if you’re a boy or a girl. I personally don’t care if you “hate” the Lakers or not. Facts and numbers should show who the best is. Opinion, however, does not.
P.S. Actually, It’s only a true fool who puts so much stock into something as leisurely and arbitrary as sports that they’re unable to put bias aside to see truth and fact.
by DJ Bento Box on Jun 24, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
What’s funny is that your first two arguments are both player based argument, so naturally I should come back with player based answers.
Your third argument is the only legit argument and it’s the one I didn’t see come up this entire time.
I’d love to discuss this third argument, but you’ve already made it clear that my opinion means nothing to you, so there is no point to a discussion of any form.
Final food for thought. What if we draft Jordan and the Bulls draft Bowie, who blows his knees up later. Jackson comes into Chicago and tries to implement the triangle offense, but doesn’t have good enough players to make it work. He now wins ZERO titles with Chicago. The Lakers don’t want to hire some random no name coach, so Jackson never goes there and he never wins a title.
Does this make him a worse coach? I mean he would still be Phil Jackson, he would still have the same ideas as the current Phil Jackson, but he would have 0 titles instead of 10.
This is why using a number like titles just can’t work. Jackson is going to be the same coach regardless of whether or not he wins titles, but something so minor as two teams drafting different players is the difference between Jackson having 10 and probably 0 titles. This changes his skill as a coach ZERO, it simply changes the number of titles he has.
Or, what if Jordan never comes back? He still has 3 titles + the 4 from Lakers, but this is only 7. Do people only hype him as the second best ever because he is 2 behind Red? He still coached Bulls/Lakers to title with 3 different teams, he just got 3 less titles because MJ never came back. I gurantee that the analysts would say that he is second best ever because he is 2 titles behind Red. His skill as a coach would be unchanged though.
This concept seems to be a difficult one for people to understand though, so I will let it go.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re going to let it go because you have no real argument.
Of course players come in to play with his numbers. The coaches don’t PLAY THE GAMES. They coach. Their teams win or lose. The coach’s numbers and championships rise and fall with the ability of his players to play as a cohesive unit and the ability to implement the coache’s system to it’s full effect. With the victories a coach’s status and standing grows and then the argument can be made as to one person being the best. It’s a simple formula actually.
Anyone can throw a “what if” or “if he didn’t have” into the mix. Desperation to not want to see the truth will do that to people. It’s impossible to argue facts and numbers. It’s just the way it is.
I have facts and numbers. you have a bucketful of “what ifs”. I’ll go with mine, thanks.
by DJ Bento Box on Jun 24, 2009 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
You’re some kind of God who understands everything about the NBA and I’m some idiot who uses theoretical thinking as opposed to numbers. Because numbers tell all.
AI is a better player than Kobe because he has scored more points.
Robert Horry is a better player than Kobe because he has more titles.
Nash is a better player than Kobe because he has more MVPs.
Parker is just as good of player as Kobe because he has as many finals MVPs.
I shall now on take things on the value of their numbers. Jerry Sloan is also an awful coach because he has 0 titles in a bajillion years, or is he a great coach because of all his wins?
I love numbers, but spouting them without looking at the “why” is ridiculous. I gave you a perfect scenario to explain why 10 titles and 0 titles still = the same level of coaching, but you just ignored it. Whatever.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He actually provided a well thought argument.
You are really not getting anywhere with your arguments here.
Also 10 titles and 0 titles does not equal the same level of coaching.
by lrh86 on Jun 24, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you read my scenario?
A simple switch of the picks and Jackson could have 0 titles. He would have been the same coach he was, just with Bowie/Pippen instead of Jordan/Pippen. His c"oaching ability" isn’t affected by the players he has, but no one alive would call him the greatest coach ever because he wouldn’t have won any titles.
This is not a hard concept to understand.
People simply look at the results of a coach instead of the actual coaching. The result they see are player driven. Technically, Jackson would still be Jackson whether or not be won 1 or 10 titles.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again..........
“What if”, “If this didn’t happen”, “if he didn’t have this”, yadda, yadda, yadda…….. That’s all you’ve got. What if.
Your theory of speculation is falling embarrassingly flat. By your rationale there can’t ever be someone better than everyone because there will always be someone who got better breaks than someone else. But that’s the way it goes. Luck, talent, heart, intelligence, nerve…… it takes all of that.
Do you want an example? David Robinson suffers a season-ending injury and that season San Antonio sinks so low that they’re able to obtain the number 1 pick and draft Tim Duncan. The year before Robinson got hurt the Spurs were a middle of the road team. Good enough to make the playoffs, not good enough to make much noise. So at what point did Popovich become a genius? Was he just not using it up to that point? Was he just “saving” it? Did it happen over the summer they got Timmy D?
You see, he’s a coach generally considered to be the “anti-Jackson”, a coach who has done it on skill and intelligence and not because of great players but if you take a look, his championship pedigree doesn’t start until a huge stroke of luck happens (David Robinson’s injury) and he gets an all-world player to coach.
You’re really making this too easy.
by DJ Bento Box on Jun 24, 2009 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh
Nobody claims you can win a title with mediocre talent. In fact, I even said that you need one of the most talented teams in the NBA to win a title. However, the first two Spurs teams to win the titles didn’t have the best teams on paper, but they won regardless.
How many titles did the Lakers or Bulls win without going in as the favorites?
Here is the problem. I also pointed out just how much LESS talent the Spurs teams had than any of Jackson’s teams.
And I’m not even talking about “what ifs” I am trying to explain a concept that you simply do not understand apparently. It’s not a “what if” about Jackson winning 0 titles. It’s FACT that if one thing goes different, Jackson wins 0 titles. This doesn’t make him a better or worse coach. If he won ZERO titles, he’d be the SAME coach that he is now. You argued my own point for me here. Going to the Bulls didn’t suddenly make him a great coach. Having Jordan/Pippen (once Pippen hit his prime) made him look like a great coach.
Another example. Jazz vs Bulls in finals. If Jordan misses that shot, and the Jazz win the title, is Sloan suddenly a better coach? NO, he is still the same coach that he is now, but everyone will say he is better because he won a title. I don’t care if you say this is a “what if” scenario, it is simple fact. Things that the coaches have nothing to do with decide whether or not they are considered great.
But you know what? You don’t care. Your snide little comment at the end tells me that. You think this is some sort of pissing contest or something. You don’t even care about the other side of the picture, and that is a fact. It’s a shame I wasted such a chunk of my life on someone with tunnel vision.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s FACT that if one thing goes different, Jackson wins 0 titles.
Can’t be proven, therefore it is not fact. And do you really think that someone who led his teams to ten championships would not be able to scrape together enough talent to at least win a couple. He has proven that he has the coaching ability to win. HE HAS TEN FREAKIN RINGS!
by lrh86 on Jun 25, 2009 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What did we learn about the Blazers?
That no matter how well they match up with the Lakers they can’t ever get to them because they keep getting bounced out of the playoffs by everyone else.
Again.
Just like last season.
By the by…. If Houston qualifies as “lack of competition” in a title run, that would make the Blazers what again?
Why so much mocking? Is it that difficult to congratulate and accept another teams success and prep for beating them the next season instead of denigrating their accomplishment which in turn makes you seem frustrated and petty?
It’s only a game people.
by DJ Bento Box on Jun 23, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
101st!
Without you out there, we're nowhere here
by 22baylor on Jun 23, 2009 2:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Still a Beavis!!!
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 23, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post + my 2 cents
There are two things that I think are missing factors in the Lakers success:
1. Luck – Orlando didn’t play to their full potential, and looked like the better team other than caving to the pressure. If they had had to face a healthy Celtics I doubt things would have been much different from last year.
2. Coaching – Stan Van Gundy made some inexplicable choices (mostly at PG) and Phil stuck with his core guys. So, from a tactical point of view, he was the better coach.
From a strategic point of view, I think Phil’s system has been shown to work pretty well, as long as you have one great and one near-great good player. The other positions just need to be flexible/multi-position average talents.
Currently playing the role of the Atlanta Hawks GM in the Blazersedge.com 2009 NBA Mock Draft.
by hoopla-pdx on Jun 23, 2009 2:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the Lakers were not “better” or “more talented” than the Orlando Magic they were just smarter. They made the big plays when they needed to, made the shots that needed to be made, got the stops they needed to get, etc. Basketball IQ was what set them apart from the Magic. (and the Nuggets as well)
by shoothoop on Jun 23, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean throwing the inbound pass to Ariza is low BBIQ?
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They threw it to him not once, but twice…
by shoothoop on Jun 23, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
But if memory serves Denver was in position to win one game.
The other they were down and hoping to make a comeback and that play just crushed their hopes. Proper inbound passes and they probably still lose in 1 of the 2.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The things I learned the most
1. Gasol is a really good player.
2. Odom can be a really good player when he wants to be one.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 23, 2009 2:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Phil Jackson
He rode the back of MJ to 6 titles.
He rode the back of Shaq and Kobe to 3.
Little coaching required. Hell, throw PJ Carliesmo in there and he’d be the greatest coach ever.
He survived Latrell.
"Oh yeah? You can Derelique my balls."
"I can Shavlick my own balls."
by Terry Gamble on Jun 23, 2009 4:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
the only championship team that doesn't have a surefire hall of famer or even 2
is the 2004 Pistons. Every other team has great players. Saying a coach only won because he had great players makes no sense. Of course he did, you need great players to win. Is Red Aurebach not a great coach because of the hall of famers he had? What about Pat Riley?
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 23, 2009 11:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the level of greatness comes into play though.
Duncan and Hakeem are amazing players, but Shaq and Jordan both dominated the game like these two didn’t. Thomas was also a great player, but not even close to being on the same level as Duncan or Hakeem.
All Hall of Famers are not created equal.
The Princess of Blazersedge
by Zaig on Jun 24, 2009 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
HOF
Let’s step back and see if Rip and Chauncey end up getting some HOF fame votes when its all said and done.
You also forgot to mention the career of Darko and Rasheed!
What about Ben Wallace? He’s had a good run for a while on defense, can’t shoot a free throw but is a shot blocker (Was).
I’d say Ben Wallace is a no no for HOF.
"Oh yeah? You can Derelique my balls."
"I can Shavlick my own balls."
by Terry Gamble on Jun 24, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
I don’t think Rip will make it. Billups could get some votes and could sneak in, but I don’t see him as a first ballot guy. Ben Wallace did have a very impressive string of defensive player of the year awards and might make it. Usually you don’t win a title without a HOF offensive threat though.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jun 24, 2009 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Lakers win more than they should.
Their 15 championships is impressive, but to me, the fact that they have only missed the playoffs five times is even more impressive. Other teams like the Blazers (1991, 2000)and Kings (2002) that most objective observers thought were better teams ended up losing to the Lakers. Why is that?
I think it’s because they have some advantages over other NBA teams:
- They regularly play before big crowds, lots of celebrities, and constant national attention. They seldom fade when the spotlight is at its brightest because they are used to it. Small-market teams feel more pressure in those situations.
- They have a great winning tradition, a tradition that the players of each Laker team feel inspired to continue.
- Los Angeles is an attractive destination for top players and coaches.
- The Lakers make about as much money as an NBA team can make, when you factor in national popularity, media coverage, corporate support, and merchandising, so they have more resources, even in their rare down years, than small-market teams like the Hornets and Kings.
Beating the Lakers en route to a title is a bigger accomplishment than beating other teams.
by MiledAnimal on Jun 23, 2009 5:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Timbo
Nice work; I didn’t know you were such a good writer.
by oregonslee on Jun 23, 2009 5:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice Job!
Very in-depth work, Timbo. I’m not sure I give Carmelo the thumbs-up on superstar status. I would take B-Roy in a pressure situation any day over ’Melo.
by setshot on Jun 23, 2009 6:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Very nice post Timbo. All L@ker fans get a pass who grew up in the area in my opinion.
They definitely had the championship essential down. I think you nailed it on every point. The sooner we can consistently control the paint the sooner we will realistically be in the conversation for a title contender.
by dario argento on Jun 23, 2009 9:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What I learned from the 2008/2009 Lakers
- If I drink enough pineapple juice and water, it makes the vomit come out much smoother.
- Keep soft objects in front of you when watching the Lakers in the playoffs. Remotes, flatware and lamps are not good to throw at the TV.
- When the Lakers win a championship and you set a cop car on fire, people will mistake you for a fan.
- Inventing a sniper rifle with enough range to reach southern california is a logistical nightmare.
- No matter how many showers I take with borax and a brillo pad, I still can’t get the filth off.
- If you’re going to the finals you should hope your opponent does all they can, within the rules, to lose games.
- Listening to NBA commentators discuss the Lakers is like listening to an echo chamber full of howler monkeys play with tickle-me-elmo’s and fireworks.
Life is hilarious.
by SolGoode on Jun 24, 2009 1:29 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
We don't have someone who can effectively defend & score
While backing up the 3 and 4.
Offseason:
PG Options: Mike Conley Jr(T)/Jrue Holiday(D)/Rodrigue Beaubois(D)
SG Options: Mickaël Piétrus(T)/Terrence Williams(D)/Paul Harris(D)
Forward Options: Serge Ibaka(T)/Taj Gibson(D)/Ater Majok(D)
C Options: Alexis Ajinca(T)/Bamba Fall(D)
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 24, 2009 8:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Statistical comparison
2008-2009 NBA Season Assists Per Game Average – Blazers Vs Lakers
Blazers
Total: 23.1apg for major rotation
Starters(14.1 apg total)
(Starting PG)Blake – 5apg
(Starting SG)Roy – 5.1apg
(Starting SF)Batum – .9apg
(Starting PF)Aldridge – 2.8apg
(Starting C)Przybilla: .3apg
Bench(9 apg total)
(Reserve PG)Sergio – 3.6apg/Bayless – 1.5apg
(Reserve SG)Rudy – 2apg
(Reserve SF)Outlaw – 1apg
(Reserve PF)Frye – .4apg
(Reserve C)Oden – .5apg
Lakers
Total: 26.9apg for major rotation
Starters(14.8 apg total)
(Starting PG)Fisher – 3.2apg
(Starting SG)Kobe – 4.9apg
(Starting SF)Ariza – 1.8apg
(Starting PF)Gasol – 3.5apg
(Starting C)Bynum – 1.4apg
Bench(12.1 apg total)
(Reserve PG)Farmar 2.4apg/Brown – .6apg
(Reserve SG)Vujacic – 1.4apg
(Reserve SF)Walton – 2.7apg
(Reserve PF/C)Odom – 2.6apg
If you remove Sergio from the equation & assume the Lakers bench stays put, their 2nd unit’s assists doubles ours. Since Sergio is most likely gone, I think this team could greatly benefit from another good passer on this team. In the form of a hybrid like Boris Diaw who could play big minutes backing up the 3 & 4 or Gasol type passer who can play both the 4 & 5(eventually backing up both Aldridge & Oden). It would make the transition to Jerryd Bayless easier too.
Offseason:
PG Options: Mike Conley Jr(T)/Jrue Holiday(D)/Rodrigue Beaubois(D)
SG Options: Mickaël Piétrus(T)/Terrence Williams(D)/Paul Harris(D)
Forward Options: Serge Ibaka(T)/Taj Gibson(D)/Ater Majok(D)
C Options: Alexis Ajinca(T)/Bamba Fall(D)
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 24, 2009 10:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Depth
It really comes down to Depth…
D-fish and guys like Ariza… they really can play the game.
Same way with James Posey on the Celtics, he has brass sized balls in the playoffs on defense and draining shots.
"Oh yeah? You can Derelique my balls."
"I can Shavlick my own balls."
by Terry Gamble on Jun 25, 2009 1:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Aldridge can't slide to center
Nearly as well as Pau Gasol can and we don’t have an Odom who can play the 3 & 4 effectively in that situation either. Their frontcourt depth outways ours & the only way I see us be able to be similarly effective with a PG who is not a great passer(Bayless) is if we add someone who can distribute. Some have mentioned Hedo but I would rather make a move for Boris Diaw, younger, better defender, cheaper, better 3pt shooter last year.
Patience :)
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 26, 2009 12:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with most points of the artticle
But I disagree with how much the author implied
we are close to being what the lakers are. The truth is, the blazers have the potential
to be as good as the lakers in say 3 or 4 years, but thats only if they make a lot of savvy adjustments, and become a much tougher team,
I also disagree with his assessment
about point guard. At one point Fisher was a top PG, maybe not dominate but still very good. The lakers have learned to play with his diminishing skills, but when it was money time he was great. You can’t discount the trust the Jackson had in him. The trust was built up over a decade of wars together. Same goes for Kobe.
While the blazers may have the personal to play an inside out game, they aren’t even close to having the same inside presence that the lakers have. It start with Gasol, and while he can hit the midrange jumper, the lakers rarely settle for that shot, and he either passes it to a slasher or they kick it to Kobe to do his thing. The blazers, are in the love with the midrange jumper. Rarely does a player other then a point guard pass to a slasher, and Aldridge, and Outlaw love to jack it from mid range. While LA bigs are banging it side, Portlands like to camp their players at the three point line.
I do agree 100% that you need a dominate super star, to win champsion ships,
and fortunately we have that guy. But even the great James, needs a team around him that plays the right way.
I could go on, but the reality is that the blazers are much closer in style to Orlando then they are too the Lakers. Notice I say style because at this point Orlando is a much better team then we are.The real issue though, is the Lakers so efficiently displayed that style doesn’t win championships. Thats my biggest concern. We have the personal to play like the lakers, but yet we are a finesses, perimeter oriented team that plays inconsistent defense. I don’t think that style of play can win a championship.
by MotoMan045 on Jun 26, 2009 1:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
"Personal to play like the lakers"
We don’t have an Odom who can effectively play the 3 & 4. Aldridge doesn’t slide to center nearly as easy as Pau Gasol can(I hope he will be able to one day) either.
Patience :)
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 26, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the finals, the plays that I remember are one where Howard came down with a rebound and Kobe tore the ball out of his hands and Howard fouled Kobe in frustration. The second, was when Howard was going up for a dunk and Kobe dragged Howard to the ground. Howard missed 2 free throws, kept the game at 3 and then Fisher hit the 3 that sent it to overtime.
Which brings me to point 1 – Your superstar has to not only play well on offense, but also defense. Those plays by Kobe on Howard set the tone. One superstar said to the other, I’m taking this series just like I am taking the ball from your hands. Roy has to bring it on both ends of the court.
Point 2 – agreed, quality starters trump depth
Point 4 – Champions are always good road teams (see SA) which points to mental maturity and preparation
The point you did not make. Defense wins championships.
The Laker defense dominated the Orlando offense. In the 4 Laker wins, Orlando averaged 83.5 pts/game in regulation. That was a dominant defensive performance by the Lakers. The loss to the Celtics pushed them to improve on defense and they clearly did. It was their defense that won the title for them. Good lesson for the Blazers!
by jidooo on Jun 26, 2009 4:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
























