Mailbag: Swingmen vs. Tweeners
by Dave on Jun 17, 2009 11:26 PM PDT
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I was going to do another post about draft picks today but a couple things happened:
A. Ben posted an excellent review/analysis of the workout of the summer so far just below this. It's comprehensive, interesting, and covers some of the same players that I was going to talk about, having intentionally left them off the list until we saw what they could do. Because he hit it out of the park, I'm going to save that discussion at least another day.
B. Tonight is the night I sort out the Blazersedge Mock Draft GM's. We ran a post a couple days ago asking for potential GM's to submit their analysis of a proposed trade of Rudy Fernandez, Martell Webster, and Steve Blake for Josh Howard and Jose Juan Barea. We got 150 comments in the thread, several dozen of which are up for consideration. More to the point we got just over 100 responses via e-mail. This made me think several things:
- Wow! You guys are really awesome!
- Geez! You guys are really SICK.
- Crud. It's going to be another 3:00 a.m.-ish night for me.
E-mail was a perfectly legitimate way to respond, but I will forewarn folks that I will give some weight to regular Blazersedge names in the process. That doesn't mean you'll see only familiar names, but other things being equal I want to honor the folks who have been here. I hope that's encouragement for everyone else to stick around and participate.
In any case, in lieu of the draft post I'll forward this (somewhat paraphrased) e-mail question from Karl, part of our international readership.
Dave,
I have heard you talk about tweeners in the draft. You don't seem to like them. Yet you and others also mention swingmen who can play two positions. This appears valuable to me. What is the difference? Isn't a tweener a swingman, just not yet there?
It's a decent question. Terms like this are thrown around most everywhere but there's hardly a definitive dictionary we all work from. I'll try to explain my view.
There's a difference between tweeners and swingmen. A swingman is good-to-excellent at one position and also has the tools and size to be decent-to-excellent at another. A tweener has neither the complete skill set nor the size for either position and thus is a compromise at both. I loves me some swingmen. I hates tweeners.
A swingman is usually defined by excellent physical attributes. He's strong. He's quick. He's tall. A tweener is defined by the lack of same. He's too slow for the position he's tall at, too short for the position he's got the speed and strength for.
A swingman usually has an impressive range of skills. He can pass, shoot, rebound, defend. He's an asset everywhere you put him. A tweener again is defined by his lack of skills. He shoots too much for a point guard but he can't get his shot off against taller shooting guards and can't defend them either.
Swingmen often receive that distinction once into their careers. They're drafted to fill one position and then they prove they can play at another. Tweeners are usually correctly labeled as such before they're ever drafted, which often means they can play neither position. Thus tweeners turn into swingmen less frequently than people assume.
If a guy is a bankable swingman coming out of college he'll often go high, as he's clearly a good player to begin with. Tweeners will tend to fall lower than their stats and performances might otherwise indicate.
Looking back into Blazer history, Danny Ainge was the classic example of a swingman. He could play the point or shooting guard positions with aplomb. He had all of the skills and most of the physical attributes to do each. James "Hollywood" Robinson was a good example of a tweener. He had scoring skills but he was a shooting guard stuck in a point guard's body.
This brings up a good question to chew on. Everybody knows tweeners who have bombed out of the league. Who are some of the classic, successful swingmen you remember, not just from the Blazers but around the league? Who are the best examples today?
Fire away in the comments if you will.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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Best example today is Lebron, best past example is Magic
Not to be overly obvious, but the best example of a swingman in the NBA today is Lebron James. He can realistically play the 1-4 positions because of his size, strength and skill set. He could probably play the 5 if they ever tried that…
And while he was a PG most of the time because it was where he was most effective, you have to consider Magic Johnson as the best swingman of the past. He played PG and Center in the same series, and I believe the game he played center he has 42 points and 15 rebounds…nuff said.
Best example of a tweener in the league now is Ben Gordon, Gilbert Arenas, Monta Ellis (too small for a 2, not a PG).
by rip_city_swagger on Jun 17, 2009 11:44 PM PDT reply actions
thinm you killed it Rip
LeBron and Magic were freaks! I’d say Odom could be a good swing man when he tries (which is probably why most have been slightly disappointed with him his entire career). I’d say Hughes was another possibly good swingman that for some reason faded to an irrelevant in the league (Maybe you’d then consider him a tweener?)
"Sometimes I catch myself watching him and he's shooting floaters all-net. And just to watch how he's talking trash. I loved it. I loved every minute of it. Rudy's a competitor." - Brandon Roy
by Trail Ducker on Jun 17, 2009 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Charles Barkely is one of my favorites.
I know he played mostly PF but they would toss him to SF and even Center at times. I think he was one of those players that could really just play anywhere you put him on the floor.
6’4" to 6’6" (depending who you ask) he had the skills for every position.
"It's better to have a good player with the basketball in late game situations than to have plays." - R. Pitino
"I asked a ref if he could give me a technical foul for thinking bad things about him. He said, of course not. I said, well, I think you stink. And he gave me a technical. You can't trust em."- Jimmy V
Go Blazers!!
That's funny.
I thought when Dave wrote, “Everybody knows tweeners who have bombed out of the league” that he was going to flip it on it’s head and ask us to name tweeners who have succeeded and Barkley was the first name that popped into my mind. Adrian Dantley was a second.
P.S. I think Travis is a tweener.
It's a nice essay, but in common parlance, a "swingman" is a 2/3 and a "combo guard" is a 1/2...
Your discussion about “tweeners” having the full slate of attributes for no position strikes me as right… I don’t use the term myself… But Ainge was no “swingman” — he was a combo guard…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jun 17, 2009 11:53 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Go either way you want
I was using the terminology as the question-writer did. Maybe where he’s from “swingman” goes either way. It was useful for the post in any case.
—Dave
interesting
I always thought of a swingman as a successful 2-3 and a tweener as a guy who is too slow or unathletic to play the 3 but too small to play the 4.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
The most successful tweener of all time
IVERSON
He shoudl be a PG, but because he is such a gifted scorer he made a career as a undersized SG
"Sometimes I catch myself watching him and he's shooting floaters all-net. And just to watch how he's talking trash. I loved it. I loved every minute of it. Rudy's a competitor." - Brandon Roy
Scottie Pippen
He was talented enough to defend anyone from the 1 through the 4. He could also play Point Forward which wrecked havoc on the opposing teams players.
I miss Martell. Come back soon!
by mannyfresh1 on Jun 18, 2009 12:24 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Two swingmen
that comes to mind off the top of my head are Grant Hill and Penny Hardaway… Alas, two who’s careers were marred by injury; However, they had all the intangibles coming out of college and their first years in the league.
Terrence Williams - Swingman :)
I would say he is the best 1 on 1 defender in this draft. His advantage on NBA PG’s is ridiculous. Excellent vision & rebounding. I would take him over Bayless, in fact Williams has the advantage in almost every category. Miles ahead at being able to defend SG’s either in the 4th or on switches, then just about any PG in the NBA. Already has been talking with Roy throughout his career & I think Roy would respect him going to college for 4 years. Right away you get a PG who will be among the top of the NBA in overall defense & rebounding. He is a much better PG prospect imo then Rodney Stuckey. Much better defender.
Take a look at their 4 years of college.
Brandon Roy – Washington
Terrence Williams – Louisville
Offseason:
PG Options: Terrence Williams(D), Rodrigue Beaubois(D)
SG Options: Mickaël Piétrus(T)
PF Options: Ronnie Turiaf(T) - Taj Gibson(D), Kevin Seraphin(D)
C Options: Alexis Ajinca(T)
The French Invasion !
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 18, 2009 12:45 AM PDT reply actions
Trade Up
To around the 16th pick in the draft.
Offseason:
PG Options: Terrence Williams(D), Rodrigue Beaubois(D)
SG Options: Mickaël Piétrus(T)
PF Options: Ronnie Turiaf(T) - Taj Gibson(D), Kevin Seraphin(D)
C Options: Alexis Ajinca(T)
The French Invasion !
by TheGreatDane17 on Jun 18, 2009 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Interesting but can he learn to shoot?
The ability to finish sets Brandon (50%) at Washington apart from Terrence (43%), as well as the FT%. Brandon drew more than 2 x the foul shots and made 81% FT% compared to 58% FT% from Terrence.
I get that he can rebound and pass and defend. He is also a moderately good 3FG% shooter on small volume so that may be all he needs.
For his ability to defend the low-post at a championship level and play both forward positions effectively ...
on offense, Rasheed Wallace deserves credit for being an wondrously unique talent with the versatility to play multiple positions on the floor.
A few good active ones have already been mentions. I would add a few.
Focusing on forward/wing players (some smaller guards would also qualify for the PG/SG position):
- Kobe can credibly play SG and SF, and also handles the ball more than usual
- McGrady when healthy is an incredibly tall shooting guard who really has more than adequate size for the small forward
- Rashard Lewis can play both forward spots, even though I would put him naturally at SF which he can’t play now with Hedo and no (better) pure PF on the Magic.
- He is similar in his abilities to Andrei Kirilenko when used right (totally different player on the Russian national team).
- Shawn Marion (at least during his prime) defends three positions and plays both forward spots on offense. Dirk Nowitzki said he was his nightmare defender, which is saying a lot for a player who is 7’0’’. But Marion can defend much smaller players too.
- Tayshaun Prince, who like Marion can defend at least three positions adequately and play two on offense.
Tweeners: As Timbo said above it depends a bit on the definition. “Combo guard” can be both a positive (Wade) or a negative. If we take it loosely, you could also count big men stuck between two positions. E.g. Al Jefferson and Amare Stoudemire, who both are not good enough defenders of the center position that they still have to play a lot. Emeka Okafor also should play the PF spot but has to play center for the Bobcats. Conversely Tim Duncan can very well play both positions.
Some more names already mentioned above by posters. Also for example:
- Jamal Crawford, which poses a problem for the Warriors who now have at least two.
- Leandro Barbosa, who should be a point guard but is not a good enough passer for that
- Steve Francis, even in his best years
- Andrea Bargnani, who might be the most undefined player in the NBA. Ultimately he should be a PF, but they have tried everything from SF to C for him and it mostly ended badly.
- For tweener forwards I would have to include Travis if I’m honest. He is not physical enough for the PF spot defensively, although offensively he is a matchup problem for them. And on SF the quicker ones blog past him.
Good point about Trout
His main saving grace—the ability to shoot that magic jumper over the power forwards who are killing him on the boards and on post-ups—seems to be neutralized in the playoffs, where the refs let things get much more physical.
Put another way: during the regular season, Travis is often a swingman. In the playoffs, apparently, he’s a tweener, plain & simple. Could Trout overcome his limitations with a maniacal work ethic? Could he bulk up, learn to box out, improve his ballhandling, etc.? Very possibly. Maybe Trout’s disappointing playoff performance will finally light that fire. But I’m dubious.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
There's really no good name for the 4/5 combo players like Pau Gasol (most sensationally), Jefferson, and to a lesser extent LMA...
They aren’t “swingmen,” for sure, nor are they “tweeners.”
We should have a Bedge contest to come up with new names for 3/4 and 4/5 players, ha ha.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Dang, I should have kept reading for Royster's post below...
3/4’s (combo forwards)
Now that he says it, that’s perfectly obvious…
What about a 4/5 though?
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
"combo post"?
Really, with the way the rule changes have gone and the way the game is being called now, true “centers”, are looking to be going the way of the dinosaur. You simply wouldn’t be able to get by in the 90’s playing guys like Boozer, Bargnani, Jermaine O’Neal, Biedrins, Andersen, Dirk, or Collison at center at all.
As a Lakers fan, I’m sure you realize what Shaq would do to those guys. It would be an automatic 45 and 18, while missing about 15 FTs along the way for good measure. The same thing would happen playing David Robinson or Hakeem, and to a lesser extent, Zo and Ewing. The only real effective “combo post” back then would have been Duncan, although Sheed stepped up a couple times in the playoffs to play Shaq.
Now, though, you see tons of them. Pau, Brook Lopez, Horford, Varejao, LA, Al Jeff, Memo, Hawes, Lee, and Noah could all be classified as “combo posts” to varying degrees.
I vote for the 4/5 to be called
The Dingle-Dangle
"You're welcome friend
I love you."
- Tom "Dragline" inHawaii
by 92wastheyear on Jun 18, 2009 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions
At that point they are just called "bigs" i think
"The problem with tweeners is that sometimes they’re exactly what you need to plug the hole and sometimes they are the hole."
-LaughingJon
there's different kind of tweeners
the classic definition is a guy who’s too short to play PF, but not quick enough to defend SFs
Travis is tall enough to play PF, but too skinny to defend most of ‘em. He also doesn’t have enough lateral quickness (and I’m not going to mention the “B—Q” acronym…oops) to guard SFs
You gotta give him more time....
This was his first playoff series. You can’t say that he’s a chronic playoff failure because of one bad appearance.
Blazers win!
but you could see it during the regular season, as well
when TO played against playoff caliber teams who weren’t on their 4th game in 5 nights
I wrote a fanpost following the last L*ker game before the playoffs, saying something to the effect “if Outlaw doesn’t perform better than this in the playoffs, we’re going to be discussing his departure during the offseason”
He didn’t, and we are
by two4larue on Jun 18, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Here's two more...
Defensively, Dennis Rodman was a dominant swingman. He guarded every position. I would say he was the only guy I can remember watching play who could change the outcome of a game without scoring a point. His defense and rebounding were sick, sick, sick…
When he was younger, I could also put Kevin Garnett in the catagory of great swingman. He played all three forward positions w/ the ’Wolves.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix
by philly420pdxhilo on Jun 18, 2009 1:34 AM PDT reply actions
3 forward positions?
Is the Center position considered a Forward position? I thought there were only 2 Forward positions SF and PF.
by floorgeneral on Jun 18, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Would calling it front court positions keep your panties out of a bind?
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix
by philly420pdxhilo on Jun 18, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Ben Wallace could change the game without scoring in his prime
But he couldn’t guard the range that Rodman could.
The Princess of Blazersedge
I've always considered swingmen
as exclusively 2/3’s, which are fairly interchangeable regardless, given the offensive system. Roy and LeBron have fairly similar roles in ours and the Cavs offenses, but they just happen to be different sizes, so they defend different positions. The Celtics play very similarly, just with the 2/3 roles switched (Ray’s generally spotting up instead of Nic/Webster/Trout, while Pierce is handling the ball instead of Roy). Of course, they run a lot more offense through Rondo than we do through Blake, but that’s beside the point.
Tweeners, on the other hand, are guys caught between two positions that generally have very different roles, usually either 1/2’s (combo guards), or 3/4’s (combo forwards). I don’t feel this is a damning attribute, but they seem to work best with unusual coaches, i.e. Marion, Tim Thomas, and Barbosa with D’Antoni; Ellis, Captain Jack, and Randolph with Nellie. When they’re forced to conform to a specific position archetype, they seem to flounder (Iverson, Marion post-Suns), based on my anecdotal evidence, but that’s not something I’d bet my life on, I’m sure there are tons of examples of guys who succeed in more conventional systems (Arenas?).
The whole issue is made even more blurry by the evolution of the center spot now due to the lack of dominant bigs. Playing a guy like Channing at center in the mid to late 90’s would have been suicide. Shaq, Robinson, Hakeem, Ewing or Sabas would all eat a smaller, scrawnier guy like him for breakfast, so there were a lot more of the traditional, Chris Dudley/Will Perdue/Greg Ostertag types playing center to counter those dominant ones. Now, with basically just Dwight and Timmy on his last legs, you can get by without a great post defender at all times, so we’re almost seeing a reversion to the PG-2 wings-2 posts set, with the bigs largely interchangeable. Maybe the emergence of Dwight, Greg, Bynum and Lopez will start to swing things back and force teams to play more true centers, but it’s really too early to tell.
by Royster on Jun 18, 2009 1:48 AM PDT reply actions 4 recs
This is perfect! Rec city!!!
I’ve always considered swingmen as exclusively 2/3’s, which are fairly interchangeable regardless, given the offensive system.* * * Tweeners, on the other hand, are guys caught between two positions that generally have very different roles, usually either 1/2’s (combo guards), or 3/4’s (combo forwards).
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
.........Nor is it ever a problem for a "Power Forward" to be able to play Center, or for a team to be able to go "Twin Towers" with two Centers simultaneously...
Those guys are NEVER called “tweeners”…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
I have heard coaches (including Nate) refer to 2-3 as wings rather than swingmen.
Not that it matters so much what we call them as whether a player can do both (i.e.Roy can and Rudy cannot).
I kinda sorta agree with your definitions, Dave
But you make it sound cut & dried. It’s only so in retrospect. Guys like Paul Millsap always tend to drop to the second round because they’re labeled “tweeners.” That’s the label used by a scout or GM who sees a swingman and doesn’t trust his gut.
“Sure, the guy is the first person in history to lead the NBA in rebounding three straight seasons. But he’s too short to play power forward in the NBA, and not skilled enough to be a three. So I’m not drafting him. I’ll look like an idiot if he doesn’t pan out.”
In theory, a Paul Millsap shouldn’t be effective in the NBA. He IS shorter than the fours he outrebounds. He IS slower than many of the threes he matches up with. Sure enough, he gets his shot blocked a lot and gets outquicked sometimes. But he compensates with a number of special attributes—some measurable and some not. In the end, to pick a Paul Millsap in the first round, you have to have a keen eye and faith in your own judgement. You’re going out on a limb—big time.
It’s my belief that because the financial stakes are so high nowadays, GM’s and scouts are terrified of making any decision that can be questioned in retrospect. So they go with what is easily quantifiable. Nothing’s more quantifiable than height. You don’t want to be left trying to explain why you drafted a 6’5" power forward in the first round.
This is why I believe the Blazers have a shot at Blair in this draft. Thank God the Blazers have a GM who isn’t afraid to use his eyes. Come on: like Millsap—and Charles Barkley—before him, this guy Blair is a beast. I don’t care if he’s 6’3" in elevator shoes. Let’s grab him!
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
The great thing about Blair, to Portland
Is that KP doesn’t have to be “right” about DeJaun. The Blazers already have a starting PF. Blair can be an high-energy-guy off the bench. What if he bombs or his knees are cronically bad? That’s not great, but it’s not the end of the world. It’s a low risk, high reward choice. If DeJaun turns out to be awesome, the “worst-case” scenario is that Blair is SO good that he’ll want more PT than Portland has to offer in a few years
And that’s a nice “problem” to have. Kind of like with Rud/Roy at the 2. It’s better to acquire blue-chip assets than to “play if safe” (drafting Hansbrough, Collison, etc) and be left with a “nice” player who will likely never be anything more than an NBA reserve
Anther sucessful tweener...
Jason Terry. 6’1" SG w limited passing skills but excellent shooting and penetrating guard. Career bench player despite winning a national title in college and demonstrating a near all-star skill set
Nate Robinson… ‘nuff said
Less successful: Channing Frye, many other 6’10"-7’ with limited mobility but lacking the frame to be a true post presence
Swingmen: MJ, of course
Kirk Hinrich :)
Joe Johnson: legit playmaker skills with the size to play spot duty at 3
Artest can play 2-4 on both ends of the court, while Battier is a perfect hybrid 2/3
Neat post
Michael Cooper strikes me as a good example of a swingman. He would frequently swing between the 1-3 positions and could come in and legitimately replace Magic, Scott, or Worthy.
"Slum dunk? You just go to the rim, and crush.. crush the ball in the rim."
- Nic Batum
and cooper was the best-known defensive specialist of his day
who could also hit 3s
ignacio
oh, and we forget about david thompson, who led the nba in scoring
i was never sure if he was a sf or sg. he was 6’4" but one of the highest leapers ever.
ignacio
Roy
Roy is a fantastic swingman. Elite #2, but grabs the point often and dominates there, as well.
How about Lamarcus swinging from PF to C? He seemed to provide some very credible D from the C spot by the end of the year— and what C can guard him?
I actually am starting to think about basketball in terms of 3 positions... PG, Wings, and Bigs.
Growing up in the 1970s there was never any talk of “shooting guards” and “small forwards” — there were, unless I’m mistaken, three basic positions: Guards, Forwards, and Centers… Which seems sort of like a silly way to view the game now, eh?
Somebody needs to write an essay on the origin of the terms “shooting guard” and “small forward” and “power forward.”
Just scratching my brain, I think “point guard” and “power forward” were terms that popped up first and that “shooting guard” and “small forward” emerged later, as the negations of those two terms (a Guard is not a PG, so they have to be something, etc.).
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
I seem to remember the phrase "off guard" being briefly used also...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
I remember Off Guard as well
"You're welcome friend
I love you."
- Tom "Dragline" inHawaii
by 92wastheyear on Jun 18, 2009 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions
"off-guard" is still used today. It's just another name
for shooting guards, or 2s.
by howlingfantods on Jun 18, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
it’s more practical in Nate’s offense to view the positions as what they are in his offense.
1 = point guard, 2 = ballside wing, 3 = weakside corner, 4 = high post, 5 = low post.
Can a player operate in the high post and low post, as well as defend both positions? Then he’s a combo big. Can a player shoot from long and mid-distances, and guard on the perimeter and post? That’s a combo forward.
proud hinrichsheeple
by Cablinasian on Jun 18, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions
I can remember "power forward"
Being used in the mid-70’s to describe Elvin Hayes, Mo Lucas and George McGinnis
The first player I remember being referred to as a “small” forward was Walter Davis (followed by Alex English, George Gervin, etc)
Classic Tweener
I looked up tweener in the dictionary and guess what I found? A picture of Jerryd Bayless! Classic!
by Original Blazer Fan on Jun 18, 2009 8:00 AM PDT reply actions
Rolling the dice with combo-guards/tweeners
Every year there are a bunch of undersized SG’s in the draft. Some, like Curry, got feedback before that they needed to become PGs to they worked at it. Some, like Teague and Maynor kind of worked at it, but really ended up just bringing the ball up the court, then looked to score. Others, like Bayless, didn’t stick around college long enough to try being PGs.
It’s is always a big risk on these guys. Tony Parker, Devin Harris, Chauncy Billups and others have managed to become great PGs. Others, like AI and Ben Gordon have just stuck with scoring. I think it is worth working with Bayless another year to see if he shows signs of PG potential. If not, you use him as a back-up 2.
Swingman - Not Ron Jeremy's new club in Clackamas
First,
Blazers edge needs the actual Edge so here he is. 
Second… This is easy. A tweener is a big dude who may be too small to play PF or C but can’t move like a guard.
A swingman like Danny Granger or Paul Pierce is a baller who can score as well as play the 2 and the 3 position.
I’d argue you can get a tweener at the guard position as well because a guy like Ben Gordon plays the 2 for Chicago but is more of a point guard sized dude. Tweener’s can get you in trouble because he can’t guard the conventional over 6"4"-6’6" shooting guard.
The thing about Tweeners is you can get a hell of a player just because a scout things they are undersized for their position. It is a way to shop for value in the draft in looking for skills instead of length, vertical, and wingspan.
"Tommy like wingy"
Tweener?
Dickau isn’t really a tweener. He just wasn’t a very good basketball.
He basically was a short point guard who could shoot but not play defense or pass.
"Tommy like wingy"
by Terry Gamble on Jun 18, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess the way I'd look at it is
if he was 6’ 5" with the very same skills, he would be playing semi-regularly in the NBA.
by antediluvian on Jun 19, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions
My favorite swinger (other than Austin Powers)
has to be Cliff Robinson. The guy could play SF, PF, and C all very well. Wouldn’t surprise me if he could have even played SG.
My favorite teams are the Blazers and any team that is playing the Lakers.
Terry Porter
Got the toughest defensive assignments. Could drive, dish and shoot. I know he wasn’t a 2/3, but he is my favorite player of all time so I am going to put him here since he could defend the 3 when needed.
with today's NBA rules
Porter would have a tough time guarding anyone. He was without a doubt an above-average PG defender in his day, and would often guard the SG position depending on mathups as well.
But his defense was predicated on using his bulk and physicality to body up guys. He would either foul out or get blown by given today’s defensive rules.
None of this relates to your comment, which I agree with, but I find it interesting.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
Swingman
Ive always thought of a swingman as a player who can “swing” from Guard to Forward positions, basically a player will size, power, quickness etc to play either G or F.
On another note, totally unrelated, i believe it is no coincidence that the Blazers started winning after the cursed #3 jersey was no longer being used by a player on the team.
Swingman vs. Point-Forward vs. Combo-guard vs. Tweener
Like Floorgeneral said, I’ve always seen “swingman” as someone who could play the 2 & 3. They really only need to be defensively proficient at the 2 to be valuable, so we’re usually talking about guys around 6’7’’ who can shoot from distance and play good D. I think Batum fits that mold, as do Pietrus and Posey from the last two finals. Stacey Augman was another classic swingman for me. I suppose T-Mac could also be called a swingman, but, to me, he just seems like an exceptionally good SF (or used to, anyway).
Other guys who can play more than one position tend to get other labels, like Point-Forward or Combo-guard. The latter being the non-pejorative version of Tweener.
I’m not sure what to call some of the freaks-of-nature/skill that can excel at three or four positions. LeBron is just plain versatile, and Turkolu is just a freak.
Sorry, not to pile on, but this is just factually incorrect.
“Swingman” is a wing, a SG or SF, with the size to play SFs and the ballhandling skills to play SG.
“Tweener” is someone who’s stuck between two natural positions, and connotes that that person can’t play either effectively. It’s most often used for short power forwards and short SGs, guys too small to play their natural positions but without the speed and/or skills to play the position suited to their builds.
by howlingfantods on Jun 18, 2009 12:52 PM PDT reply actions
Point Forward
Term commonly used for the PF who the offense is run through.
Chris Webber was a point forward/PF, racked up a lot of assists, when he was actually good on the kings.
Scouts were touting Julian Wright like crazy on Kansas because he was a 6’8" PF who had exceptional vision and passing skills.
He left early and the masses haven’t heard a thing from him.
"Tommy like wingy"
Wasn't the term "Point Forward" first coined to describe Scotty Pippen?
I could be wrong, but the first time I heard the term was Rick Adelman describing Scotty’s role on the team.
Nope, originally used by Marques Johnson
to describe his own role for the Bucks in the early 80s after a slew of injuries led Nellie to have Marques initiate the offensive sets. You can read a little bit about it here.
I do believe Scottie was the first one that was always on national TV that used to get the tag applied to him a lot. Bird also kind of played this role, and to some extent Magic, but I don’t think anyone ever used this term to describe them until the coinage got more popular in the 90s after their playing days were over.
by howlingfantods on Jun 18, 2009 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions
I heard point forward for Bird
while he was playing. Magic was always the point guard (unless he was playing center or something) …..a 6’9" point guard
"You're welcome friend
I love you."
- Tom "Dragline" inHawaii
by 92wastheyear on Jun 18, 2009 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Classic Tweener????
TRAVIS OUTLAW!
by Dave’s definition, he is the epitome of a savage tweener.
too small to defend and rebound at the 4 and too slow to dominate at the 3.
everyone wants to see a 3 when we talk Travis, but it just aint happening.
Good point
I have a man crush on Travis and will make up reasons to defend him, but he is a tweener.
Travis
he could be much more versitile if he made more of a commitment to driving and finishing at the rim. he has moments when he jumps out of the gym…and everyone thinks, dang!
and then he proceeds to shoot the next 15 shots from 20+ feet. plus he is a black-hole. very little passing, i wont say ability, but i will say willingness.
if he could just improve his lateral quickness and penetrate more, he could be a very valuable player…and if he could play the 3 solidly, he could move into that swingman status. but right now he is only effective at the 4 offensively.
Timmay!!
Does Tim Duncan count? The guy is regarded as the best PF ever, but on most nights Duncan is guarding the other team’s Center.
Rolando Blackmon was nice too. He played a lot of PG, but him and Derrick Harper were basically a couple of SG’s that tore up the league.
Mayo looks like a classic tweener too.
Allen Iverson might be one of the most prolific scoring tweeners ever too.
Hi fans it Brandon Roy.
And ME.....LaMarcus Aldridge
Duncan is a classic center/pivot
I don’t care that he (or the Spurs) want to call him a PF so he can rack up all star starts and 1st team NBA honors, the guy has pretty much always been a center.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
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