Welcome to KP's Slapfest '09
People, people! All this talk and it simply does not matter. It is so cool we have one of, maybe the most savvy GM in the NBA. Draft Day is coming. KP will answer our questions in ways that will likely surprise us all. Welcome to KP's Slapfest '09.
Since we do have KP, anything stated as fact below, such as a high likelihood of having to keep such and such player, assumes that KP will not intervene with his Supernormal Powers and get the team some giant upgrade.
It is fine to talk, fun to speculate. But several factors are missing from most if not all of the analyses I have read to date.
Regarding one Trout
Travis Outlaw is a role player. He is not a back-up PF. He is not a natural starter at any position. He has too many holes in his defense. He is not reliable (goofy). Travis is hot and cold. He brings potentially unstoppable scoring and a high level of activity off the bench. He is special enough in that role to merit keeping. This is how he should be viewed. Put him on the depth chart with an asterisk, as a rover.
Regarding the Back-Up PF
Okay, yes, Channing is all but gone. (And the forgettable bigs we acquired during '08 training camp don't effect any equations. Ugh.) If we spend another year without a banger, an enforcer and defensive rebounder, who can body other bigs, and maybe present a back-to-the-basket low post threat, we will have missed the boat. This need is screaming! KP, get us a game-changer back-up to LMA!
Regarding the PG Situation
Yes, Sergio does not fit Nate's system (and he bounces the ball around way too much, reminding me of Damon's bad college-shot-clock eating habit). But Bayless as yet does not fit Nate's system either! Jerryd is not a true PG and would get posted up by most shooting guards. But he might fit with Roy. Jerryd can guard other 1's. But we need him to improve his shooting so he presents a credible threat to sink outside shots. BOTH Sergio and Bayless could go. But since Bayless still has upside here, keeping him is worth the risk of losing perceived trade value. Sergio, as many have said, has no upside under Nate. That leaves Blake, and he could go, too.
Oft villified, Steve brings a lot. He is a fine if not brilliant passer with a great Assist-to-TO ratio. He does not use much shot clock, getting the ball to the next option very quickly. He shoots the 3 VERY WELL. He is a little slight. His defense could be better. And he is not much at pushing the tempo in the open court. He reminds me of Steve Kerr, also not a jumper. If I remember right, Kerr did alright playing alongside an incredible 2-guard they had in Chicago a while back. They won some titles, right? With the 2-guard handling the ball alot on offense, especially in crunch time.
So: Whatever your analyses, if you have us selling out for a PG who needs the ball, please help us understand where that leaves BRoy. Do we trade Brandon, since he won't be having the ball much on offense? Or do we start Rudy, and bring Brandon off the bench in the sort of role his friend Travis has now? Don't just quote from FantasyBob.com. Let us know how the player fits the team, the existing personnel, and makes us better, not just different.
Besides youth, what needs fixing in this group is defense and the ability to score going full court. If Bayless is truly an upgrade at the defensive end (we should not burden our bigs, especially Greg, with picking up so much of the slack), then maybe he is the PG of the future.
Regarding the Need to Trade Now or Lose Value
This is a myth. I don't believe it. In fact, I think it could not be more untrue.
Here is why. Look at the trade posts. They try to match salaries, right? Well, the young talent we have is relatively under paid. That is the effect of the rookie salary scale. We have rights to sign these players to contracts matching their abilities. Besides the luxury tax and any reticence from PA, there is nothing stopping that. If we have Martell and Travis and Batum at the 3, and in talent level they are worth a ton, but we have to match salaries to make a trade work, we need to give someone a two- or three-for-one on the talent scale for a probable slight upgrade at one position ... think a second, does this in any way sound like a KP move? No. It does not.
What would KP do? He would wait until his chips reflected their actual value or better before trading them. He would wait for his players to get paid what they are worth before he matches salaries with other teams in trading talent. In this regard, standing pat is waiting until your security matures so you don't pay a penalty for early withdrawal.
The Likelihood of Trading Injured Blazers
Martell missed a year with multiple foot surgeries. Blake just underwent shoulder surgery. Oden is not yet 100% after micro-fracture knee surgery. How likely is it that we can get near-full-value value for these players in a trade? Please consider this is your analysis of trades involving these players before they have demonstrated a full recovery, meaning after they've played at least some pre-season games. That timing seems to be a real problem for many trade scenarios I have seen discussed.
Like everyone else, I would like to see upgrades in personnel. In KP I trust. And it is a truism that it does not matter how deep your bench is if your starters can't compete with the opposing starters. And I will entertain the idea that we should make the move now to acquire that key player so that we can get settled into the team we will become as we start our series of championship runs.
However, think about this: If we make a big move now, trading two- or three-for-one, we lose flexibility AND we lose value. We need to know if Martell will pan out. We need more time to evaluate how good Oden and LMA will get to understand what our needs will be. We need to know what holes need to be filled before we start filling them. (Please consider this when offering Joel in a trade -- I say we keep them both.) The team is closer. Fix what's broken and the maturation of your investment will give you the value you need to get any missing pieces at the least cost in talent.
Unless you are KP. Then do whatever you want.
Have a great Draft Day '09!
1 recs |
27 comments
Comments
The blazer offense as it stands right now is just fine
with Brandon being the best playmaker on the floor. However that does not mean that his effectiveness will decrease if you put him with a superstar facilitator like Dwill or Chris Paul, but on the contrary, the defensive attention that would need to be given to those guys would free him up against whatever defense would be provided on the weak side The effect would be similar to what he has on Travis Outlaw: consider that when Brandon and Travis play together, Travis benefits when the defense loads up against Brandon because Brandon can then pass the ball to him, leaving the defense vulnerable enough that he can work for a good shot. In the same way, having a Chris Paul or DWill would force defenses to pay attention to those guys, and Brandon could benefit by receiving the ball from those guys and facing a vulnerable side of the defense.
Anyway, the point of my longwinded post was to show that Brandon doesn’t become useless when paired with an elite facilitator, and you would never just bench him for Rudy just because Rudy doesn’t have the same overlapping skills as a facilitator and thus is a more complementary player. Initiating and finishing plays are not mutually exclusive abilities. LeBron, who is arguably the best playmaker in the league, is both an excellent initiator and a great finisher. That doesn’t mean that he wouldn’t benefit from playing with an elite initiator like Williams or Paul. Same thing goes for Roy.
"B-Roy is the best shooting guard I have played against"
-Ron Artest
If Artest can say it, so can I. Broy>Kobe.
by premthegrem on Jun 14, 2009 4:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
to further your example
the cavaliers dramatically improved when they obtained a large upgrade at PG, inspite of LBJ handling the ball much of the time. A similar case is being made for upgrading blake. (I don’t dislike blake, I do think hinrich would help with a team commitment to defense that would let the blazers win 60-65 games next season and a favorite for the championship) Much of the increase in wins comes from improving role players with age, but the playoff improvements also feature the better defense -an area where we were very weak last year, where we could be top 5 in the league. We have several excellent defensive pieces, if we can get everything working in unison-particularly if we can slow the opposing teams initiators.
by lurtsman on Jun 16, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A couple things.
Jerryd is not a true PG and would get posted up by most shooting guards.
This idea that Bayless isn’t a PG is one of the great Blazer myths of our time. Bayless isn’t a very good PG, but he’s a PG none the less.
According to Ziller’s measure of PG purity, Bayless ranks about the same as Parker and Westbrook in terms of his setting up vs. scoring ratio. This does not mean he does either at a particularly exceptional rate, but he is certainly doing a decent job of balancing the two.
Ranked By PG "Purity".
Jason Kidd
Jose Calderon
Steve Nash
Sergio Rodriguez
Steve Blake (2007)
Jameer Nelson
T.J Ford
Kirk Hinrich
Ramon Sessions
Rajon Rondo
Chauncey Billups
Mike Conley
Devin Harris
Andre Miller
Mo William
Tony Parker
Russle Westbrook
Jerryd Bayless
Jordan Farmar
Damon Jones
Allen Iverson
Louis Williams
Brandon Roy
Derek Fisher
Nate Robinson
Jason Terry
Monta Ellis
Rudy Fernandez
Leandro Barbosa
In the end Brandon Roy is going to be dominating the ball anyway. Having a PG who can pass is a bonus, but defense and scoring are going to be very important as well. Sergio looked awful playing next to Roy this year despite his amazing passing abilities. It’s just not what the Blazers need most from that position.
Bayless has a lot of problems to be sure, but him being a PG isn’t one of them.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 14, 2009 5:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I will be happy when the "Bayless isn't a PG" meme has a wooden stake driven through its heart....
1) You are what you can defend, Bayless can defend PGs, therefore he is a PG.
2) His utilization rate of .20, is not at all high for a guard with his penetration skills. If he was shooting J after J, people would have a right to complain. Over 50% of his shots came on the drive.
3) Bayless has shown no signs of being selfish or uncoachable. On the contrary, every indication is that he is very focused on learning how to be a successful PG.
Bayless’ “problems” are pretty apparent:
1) He needs to find his jumper. Given his history as a good shooter, this is probably just a matter of relaxation.
2) He needs experience making decisions. Contrary to popular opinion, I think Bayless shows pretty good passing skills. He throws nice crisp passes. He has been able to get the ball to the corner off the drive. He has made some nice drop off passes to the bigs under the basket. His primary problem is decision making. He doesn’t always know what he wants to do with the ball. He isn’t sure when to try to score, when to drive and kick, and when to just get the ball to his teammates. This is primarily a matter of recognition and repetition. The more decisions he makes, and the more coaching he receives, the better he will become at making these decisions. Last year, you could frequently see smoke coming out of his ears as he was thinking too much and trying too hard. Nothing will help Bayless more than regular minutes and knowing that making a mistake will cost him his chance to play.
3) He needs experience playing defense so that he figures when to help and when to stay home. He already shows pretty good foot work and an ability to put pressure on the ball. He needs to figure out the hand checking rule but that will come.
If Bayless becomes a triple scoring threat: able to take it to the rim and finish, able to make his jumper off the dribble, and able to make a decent percentage as a spot up shooter; he is going to be a huge load to defend. He should be able to learn how to use the threat of his scoring ability to set up teammates. That is how CP3, DWill, and D Harris do it. I think the days of the “pure PG” are largely gone. The best PGs in the game can almost all score.
Especially given that Roy is always going to have the ball in his hands a significant percentage of the time, having a PG who is a threat to score off the ball is absolutely essential to spacing the floor. To me, this is a total no-brainer. I know others disagree, but I have yet to see anyone lay out a persuasive argument against the need for spacing and a PG who can score. If any of you who disagree want to try, I’m all ears.
by upper left corner on Jun 14, 2009 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have yet to see anyone lay out a persuasive argument against the need for spacing and a PG who can score
It depends on how the PG scores, of course
With Blake it’s the corner 3, and it’s very effective percentage-wise. If Bayless can stand in the corner like Steve and hit 40% of his shots, then consider the PG position to be filled. (The jury is definitely still deliberating on that verdict, as we all know)
But unlike Steve, Bayless is a threat to drive and finish above the rim. That creates a whole ’nuther scenario for the defense to deal with. We saw in NJ last year what happens when you leave Jerryd unguarded on the wing, he drove and dunked and let out a primal scream.
Not to mention that Bayless is a threat to score in transition, he is very willing to run a fast break, and even if he’s the only Blazer running the court he can use his body to get to the FT line
One last thing. I remember complaining after the Philly game that Roy was getting trapped up top and there was no other Blazer who was able to come to the ball and execute a proper 4 on 3 halfcourt slice and dice. Not Blake, not Rudy, not Travis, not LMA. They were all standing around watching Roy get ambushed. And when he did get them the ball they’d either have to burp up a jumper (which is what Philly wanted) or wait until Roy sauntered back over to retrieve the ball and reset his iso routine again, only this time up against the shot clock. The point I made back then still remains: KP needs to find someone (be it a PG or a SF) who can bail Brandon out in those trapping situations. Someone who will attack the rotating defense with dribble penetration and either get fouled, get a layin or set up a teammate for a dunk.
Bayless could become that guy. Or maybe Batum (eventually) But it’d sure be nice to have a veteran who has proven he can be creative in broken-play (scramble) situations added to the roster
by two4larue on Jun 14, 2009 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel like you just made my case for Conley (aside from the primal scream)
He’s already got the 3 down, can run the break like few others, and is creative inside after he penetrates.
by as11osu on Jun 14, 2009 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What do you have against Conley?
He just got free of Iavaroni’s restrictive clutches, has a sweetheart of a coaching relationship with Lionel Hollins and now you want to send him to…Nate?
(I believe I said it would be nice to have a “veteran” who can be creative. Conley almost qualifies)
Nice try, though. I’d root hard for MJC if KP goes out and gets him, but I wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you…
by two4larue on Jun 14, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You never hold your breath for trades
it’s a good way to die.
by as11osu on Jun 14, 2009 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alas, Kirk Hinrich will be the death of me.
by AK1984 on Jun 15, 2009 1:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I won't be surprised if Hinrich suits up for us
bulls have a clear reason to trade him and want what we have to offer. Timing will be the issue. Hopefully sergio can be used as part of a package to acquire our backup PF.
by lurtsman on Jun 16, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are arguing that we don't need another slasher
because Roy needs the lane.
I don’t buy that entirely, either. Good post.
by LaoTzu on Jun 15, 2009 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm, that's weird
I don’t see Chris Paul or Deron Williiams on that list.
"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice
by koyote on Jun 14, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
click on the link.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 14, 2009 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Addition by subtraction
seems to be the key with the biggest question mark being the 3. Can Martell go this upcoming season? Can Travis realistically and consistently back-up the 4?
We obviously need a banger 4 and Bass fits the mold. Others would also, but what is the likelyhood of them being available. Take a chance on Powe making a full recovery? He would fit well also. Keep Travis as a third 3/4 as needed would be great, but would he be able to handle a lesser role? Having that option deep on your bench would be great but probably unrealistic.
Keeping Sergio over Bayless is very unlikely. He does not fit Nate’s system, but Nate also needs to loosen the reigns on Bayless and let him develop. It might not be pretty at times, but he’s not going to learn practicing in the gym. The emphasis on getting Bayless time as the exclusive point during summer league is very telling. The team believes in Bayless. Do we have to replace Blake? No, he is a very serviceable PG for this team. Do we want to replace Blake for an upgrade at PG. Many here do (and I agree if one is available without giving up the farm). The push seems to be for Hinrich, who is a definite upgrade on defense.
Trading Pryz for an upgrade at PG or SF? Who will back up Oden when needed because of foul trouble? He will get into foul trouble this coming year also, just hopefully not as much. A better defense from our other positions will help tremendously. Watching GO get out on a PG/SG is just plain scary. Why did it happen so often? Our own guards defensive abilities are lacking.
My wants:
PG: Blake or Hinrich/Bayless
SG: Roy/Rudy
SF: Batum/Webster(starter wins the position this summer)/Outlaw(if not traded)
PF: LMA/Bass(or whomever we get)/Outlaw(again if not traded)
C: Oden/Pryz
11 thru15: Outlaw if we still have, Freeland, draft picks
by Ltlgto on Jun 14, 2009 9:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
not sure if i agree
We obviously need a banger 4
Then, our 2nd unit would ideally feature a ‘banger 4’ and Pryz, who is a banger 5. Do we really want to have a lineup that guarantees that 2 of the 5 players won’t be able to create their own shot?
Yellow Mamba FTW!
by northwestj on Jun 14, 2009 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I share your skepticism
Outlaw is a frustrating as a defender and rebounder, but he is good at getting his own shot and he would help space the floor in a second unit with Bayless as the PG.
If we do get a banger, he better be able to stick a 10-15 foot jumper.
by upper left corner on Jun 14, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's why
I would love to see Travis stay as a 3/4, but not as a primary backup every game. He is very interchangeable depending on the team we’re playing. Bass could even backup the 5 if neccessary and slip TO at 4.
by Ltlgto on Jun 14, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's how I feel
I want a 4 who can score inside and throw it down, but they need some ability to hit the shot to keep spacing honest when we are trying to reign down threes. (My hunch is that bayless/rudy/webster is our lineup for the second unit and bayless will have a decent enough shot that with his driving ability preventing the defense from over reacting he will be able to hit a comparable percent of his treys. I can not fathom trading away prizbilla. His defense is a huge boon, and he is absolutely vital if greg gets hurt. Even without greg hurt, big men rarely do much more than 30 minutes, so in the absence of injury, billa plays 18. When there is an injury, he may play 30. He sets excellent picks, and plays within the offense resulting in a very high shooting percentage—though he doesn’t generate many points, he isn’t wasting the possession either. Priz is a huge contributor to this team. If our four can hit a big shot and box out, he will help prizbilla dominate the boards, and we will maintain a significant bench advantage in almost every game we play.
by lurtsman on Jun 16, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know what you mean
but Bass is like a smaller GO. He does have decent offensive skills + he rebounds and sets picks well. We didn’t have 3 of 5 starters that could get their own shot all of last year. Barely even 3 players on the whole team that could get their own shot: Roy, TO, Bayless.
by Ltlgto on Jun 14, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
GO's offensive game is hurtin'
he rebounds and sets picks well
that’s pryzbilla’s game. i don’t know if it’s going to do us much good to duplicate this skillset. Then again, I’ve never seen this Bass dude play, so maybe he’s legit.
Yellow Mamba FTW!
by northwestj on Jun 15, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
when is the draft, anyway?
Yellow Mamba FTW!
by northwestj on Jun 14, 2009 9:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
"Travis Outlaw is a role player. He is not a back-up PF."
I’m not sure that “role player” means what you think it does. Lots of (if not most) teams have “role players” starting.
by ninjasocks on Jun 14, 2009 9:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree with most of your points but...
“Regarding the Need to Trade Now or Lose Value”
There are two reasons we will lose value.
1. We have cap-space now so we can trade a player for his perceived value not actual salary and do a unequal trade. When we have no cap-space our players salaries become as important as their skills. With cap space and cheap players the low salary actually increases their value. Getting Rudy on his rookie contract is immensely valuable to a team trying to shed salary and they might be willing to give up something unbelievable for that.
2. A lot of the value of our players is their “potential.” People don’t know how good these players will be but they know their ceiling is very high. With our minutes crunch and too many players to develop in a year or two some of our “potentially” great players will have washed out because they got only spot minutes and we didn’t have room for them on our roster. A year ago Channing was a pretty valuable player based on his “potential.” Now we’re letting him go, because we couldn’t let him develop a rhythm here and his perceived value is incredibly low.
So if we don’t trade and consolidate the roster we’re going to miss being able to use our cap-space to get a great player in and we’re going to turn a few potentially great players into bench-warming scrubs.
by boppitywop on Jun 14, 2009 2:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What would KP do? He would wait until his chips reflected their actual value or better before trading them.
I think Outlaw and Sergio are at this point now. (So are Blake and Webster, but like you said, they’re hurt) If anything, KP has hung onto these players too long. Waiting until after Travis or Sergio sign their “next contract” to deal them is counter-productive, it would be putting KP in a position of weakness that’s completely unneccessary.
Could Outlaw and Sergio improve in the next few years? If given the opportunity, perhaps. Will they get that opportunity if they stay in Portland. Very unlikely, unless there are major injuries or players who are “ahead” of them on the organizational depth chart are dealt away (unlikely)
Other teams want the salary relief that KP can provide via a lopsided trade. That is called leverage, and it shouldn’t be wasted. After Roy and Aldridge get their extensions later this summer the cap-space will be dried up, and deals will be much harder to pull off. The time to make a move is in the next 30-45 days
by two4larue on Jun 14, 2009 5:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I like the thought put into these last two posts
Privately, I do think it is more of a balancing act than I let on. My post was pretty much in response to Dave’s.
But while I do think that, for certain players especially, the time has probably come, I also think that their salaries are ridiculously low, and it will be hard to get more or even as much as we are giving with the trade restrictions.
The reason I think KP will make a move is that the our time under the salary cap will close soon. That is valuable space. I have my fingers crossed that KP can get us something like Tony Parker for Batum and Blake and the rights to Joel Freeland. All for that. Even think that sort of thing will happen.
But KP with flexibility is a KP at his most dangerous. He still could put together a series of moves to come up with what we need.
Either that, or he could simply spend our cap space and get us a freaking banger at the 4 spot.
by LaoTzu on Jun 15, 2009 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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