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Full Court Press

I'm going to switch this up with more draft links and general NBA news this week due to a lack of Blazers news. Here's the Blazers stuff first, of course.

Runyon from Trail Post takes a Blazers-centric look at the NBA Finals.  He makes a great point: both teams were responsible for vicious pain (emotional or physical) in the Rose Garden this year.

John Canzano says it's time to trade.

They called Bob Whitsitt "Trader Bob." And when he came close, but missed, on a championship window, Whitsitt was vilified for not being connected to the community, and for failing to spend enough nights in Portland.

Pritchard's legacy remains undefined.

Pritchard's already walked across the Willamette in the minds of Blazers fans. He pulled Roy and Aldridge out of the same draft. He recruited Fernandez. He signed free agents Blake and Joel Przybilla. And draft pick Jerryd Bayless feels like a big-time player. But ultimately, Portland's GM is going to be judged on his ability to get the franchise a championship.

For those interested, I asked Mr. Canzano his thoughts regarding whether Bayless can take Blake's spot in training camp (say what you will about JC but he's the only Oregonian employee writing about the team this month). He says Bayless is half a year to a year away from being ready.  

Sean Meagher has a list of draft links.

Greg Oden writes about his first, of what we all hope will be many, offseason workouts.

I also had my first workout yesterday my body is super sore i squatted for the first time in like two years. My legs was sore after four of them. At the end of the work out i couldnt even feel my legs but i know it will get better next week and i will keep on working hard and harder than the next day preparing for next season.

In light of Slam Magazine's news that Rasheed Wallace is looking for big money or he will retireBomani Jones is suggesting Sheed take a different route: coaching. He's fired up a facebook group and everything.

The time is now. Sheed's got next!    

Ian Thomsen quotes Nate McMillan on flopping and offers his latest draft buzz.

Trail Blazers coach Nate McMillan thinks that's a bad idea for the NBA. "Guys do that in college [practices], but with pros?" he said. "There were coaches years ago that used to practice it -- I heard Pat Riley may have done that back in the early days. But the risk of an injury is too much. We chart the guys who take the charges, and we talk about getting position. But if you practice it and someone falls down on someone's knee, you can injure yourself or someone else."    

The likely candidates to draft UConn's Thabeet up high are No. 2 Memphis, No. 3 Oklahoma City and No. 6 Minnesota -- otherwise he may slide past Toronto at No. 9 and out of the top 10.

This would not necessarily be a bad thing for him. Like every player in this draft, it's crucial that Thabeet land with a team that can accommodate him. Don't you think Brook Lopez is happy he slid last June to No. 10 with New Jersey, where he filled a huge need by averaging 13.0 points, 8.1 rebounds and 1.8 blocks?

Dwight Jaynes with a look at LeBron.

But I do think James has a ways to go. Obviously, he's capable of making great plays. Of doing great things. Of doing so many things that help you win games. Obviously, he's a supreme talent.

But I'm not quite sure he's totally harnessed his abilities yet. I don't think he really understands all of what he can - and cannot - do. When your limitations are so much farther out there than everyone else's, it's difficult to know exactly where they are. And I do believe, no matter how good you are, you need to recognize what you can't do.

A couple of interesting notes from Jonathan Givony at Draft Express, who is hitting grand slam after grand slam in his coverage.

Most teams we've spoken to in Chicago are indicating that they believe Oklahoma City is indeed leaning towards picking Harden. They also believe the Thunder are not enamored with Rubio at all, as they are committed to developing Russell Westbrook at his natural position-point guard.     

One player who really doesn't seem to have very much positive buzz these days is Ty Lawson. "Injury prone" one assistant GM calls him. "A backup point guard...he's 100% behind Jonny Flynn" another NBA representative says. "He's a product of North Carolina's system" a third told us. Lawson seems to be outside of the lottery at the moment, but still has a good chance to be picked by two teams looking for point guards in the late teens, Philadelphia (#17) and Atlanta (#19). He'll have to keep Eric Maynor at bay, though.     

Givony also breaks down the Combine measurements, which I guess is a little creepy when you think about it but whatever.

DeJuan Blair's height of 6'5.25 without shoes may cause some teams to raise an eyebrow, but they will likely look at his other measurables as well. For comparison's sake, Blair is a quarter of an inch taller than Jason Maxiell without shoes, and an inch shorter than Paul Millsap. In terms of wingspan (7-2) and standing reach (8-10 ½), Blair is slightly longer than Millsap and comparable with Maxiell. He's nowhere near Elton Brand's mammoth proportions, though-Brand has a 7-5 1/2 wingspan and a 9-2 standing reach. 

Very cool behind-the-scenes note from 48 Minutes of Hell's Timothy Varner from the pre-draft combine.

Don't get me wrong. There is plenty of talk about drill times, vertical leaps, and all that. Danny Green, for example, measured longer than expected. Luke Harangody, who outbenched everyone here, is being called Matt Bonner with muscle. DeJuan Blair is short. Terrance Williams can really jump. DeMar DeRozan looks fluid. You hear these things. (Green, by the way, worked out for San Antonio and Harangody interviewed with them last night.)

But you also hear plenty of stuff about how players carry themselves, how they account for past mistakes, whether or not they can maintain a conversation without texting. Teams take notes. A well-connected source who had read my recent post about Vladimir Dasic pulled me aside to say that many teams wouldn't touch him because he was "not all there." Otherwise, I was told, he'd project much higher. Too much risk.

Graydon Gordian also from 48 Minutes of Hell had a hilarious take on DeJuan Blair.

Blair went on to compare himself to former undersized forwards such as Charles Barkley and Larry Johnson, the latter being a particularly apt comparison. Blair is nothing if not a banger. In fact, weighing in at 276, he is the heaviest player at the Combine. And from the looks of it, all 276 of those pounds are pure muscle. As my mother always says, "You couldn't shoot a twelve gauge through him."

Ziller has a nice look at Tyreke Evans, who has come a long way from a shy conversation in the bowels of the Rose Garden after the 2008 Nike Hoop Summit

If Evans can play the point in the NBA -- his record at the helm of Memphis would indicate an affirmative answer there -- he will be the longest, biggest point guard in the league. Bigger than Billups, Williams. Longer than Rondo. (I think. Rondo didn't submit to measurements.) If he has or can develop the skills, he'll be able to post up any single point guard in the league. If he has the heart to devote himself to team defense, he should be one of the guards most physically ready to challenge every jumper. If he can jump and sprint, he could be deadly in transition. At both ends.

Again, he needs to develop the right skills, the right coach, the right team fit, the right attitude. But that's one helluva canvas to bring to the parlour.

(Yes, I admit it, I am only linking that Hoop Summit conversation because I wrote that Evans was "the best player in his class." I would be shocked if anyone from his class went before him in this draft)

On Saturday I pointed you to John Hollinger's take on the Nuggets.  Here's Kelly Dwyer's, which is a little more cup-half-full.

And if the Nuggets get a string of teams they match up well with this time next year, or someone gets hurt, or a stud becomes available for that trade exception (that I don't think they'll use and wouldn't blame them for not using), then we could see the team's first NBA championship.

Sometimes being "right there" is just right. Especially when it's not your money to spend.

Bethlehem Shoals goes on a long, fun trip regarding Shaq's shadow over this NBA Finals matchup.

Despite O'Neal's attempt to undermine Howard, or Howard's obvious inferiority as a pure center-perhaps one of the reasons this slippage is possible-Dwight, with his boyish good looks and effortless acrobatics, is that lovable big men Shaq never could be. Yes, we can debate for days when he is in fact a big man, or just a bigger Amare. But the Superman has stuck there without any sense that we're being forced into embracing his might (like how Superman really could have destroyed the world whenever he wanted). On the other hand, Kobe, while he remains the epitomal post-Jordan off-guard, we all know that this trappings of his game have become so methodical, his aura so admirably bleak, that it's transformed the dream-like "as an explosive shooting guard, I will get rings" of Jordan into a optimization of the position so that it embraces as much of the big man rigor as is possible. LeBron is unstoppable, quasi-religious. Kobe is so professional that he's always adjusting, a character who is about as Terminator-like as guards can possibly get. Like when they made the evil robot a hot lady for T3.    

Mark Cuban's very interesting take on internet criticism.

It soon became clear to them that vast majority of what is written on the web goes unread and even that which is read, is quickly forgotten. That even when something is heavily commented on, it is usually just an onslaught by the "amateur outties".

Fragmentation applies to 100pct of media. We have gotten to the point where it is so easy to publish to the web, that most of it is ignored. When it is not ignored and it garners attention, the attention is usually from those people, the amateur outties, whose only goal is to create volume on the web in hopes of being noticed.

Thats not to say there are no sites that people consume and pay attention to. There obviously are. Thats where the "professional outties" come in. They are branded. They have an identity that usually extends beyond the net. They are able to make a living publishing, even if its not much of one. They are the sites that people consume and may possibly remember.

Yahoo's Dan Wetzel breaks down the developing Derrick Rose mess.  

This isn't to absolve the people involved, but the question shouldn't just be did Derrick Rose cheat on his SAT?

It should be why the heck did he have to take it in the first place?

If Rose sang or danced or wrote computer code, even if he hit forehands or curveballs and not free throws, his acumen at standardized questions concerning probability, diction and critical reading wouldn't matter.

They do in basketball because NBA commissioner David Stern wanted to control long-term labor costs and use college ball to market his young stars. In 2005, his league began requiring American players (but not Europeans) to be at least one year out of high school to be drafted.

If a genius/prodigy/pick-your-favorite-word like Derrick Rose can't pass his SAT, that tells me more about the uselessness of the SAT than it does the "intelligence" of Derrick Rose.

MSNBC's Dan Fleschner with a lengthy interview with Michael Lewis.

Are there more Shane Battiers out there in the NBA? And how does studying the exception to the rules of NBA selfishness help us learn things about the vast majority of players who are not exceptions?

A: Yes, there are more of them out there. The Rockets have generated a list of five, six, seven players who they thought were dramatically undervalued. And there's the converse - players who do well in conventional stats who are overvalued. I think the thrust of the story is that what's going to happen in basketball has happened in baseball. A wand will be waved and a new system will be put in place on how to value players. The Rockets will tell you that everyone in the NBA is at least slightly misvalued.

The Phoenix Mercury (the new obsession of Phoenix Stan from Bright Side of the Sun) have made history by selling corporate sponsorship space on their jerseys to Life Lock. 

Taking a cue from international sports, where displaying corporate names on jerseys is standard, the Mercury on Monday will announce a three-year deal with Tempe, Ariz.-based LifeLock that is worth at least $1 million annually.

"I think the league and all our owners embrace innovation," Donna Orender, the W.N.B.A. president, said. "We're constantly looking at ways to showcase the value we bring to our partners. And when the Mercury and LifeLock connected, it rang bells."

Here's KP2's take on the matter.

The most significant thing about this partnership is that NBA commissioner David Stern is participating in the press conference in New York announcing the deal. In doing so, Stern is surely giving his tacit approval to not only other WNBA teams but NBA teams as well to pursue jersey sponsorships. And while there will surely be a backlash bemoaning the spread of advertising onto player jerseys as a sign of the Apocalypse, don't doubt that this is coming to the NBA at some point.

Alas, this is probably about the worst time in recent history to be looking for increased sponsorship opportunities, not only because of the economic crisis in general but specifically because of the criticism around the advertising done by troubled companies, like Citigroup's naming-rights deal with the New York Mets' Citi Field. Never has advertising seemed more frivolous in the public eye. In time, however, this is sure to blow over. If you put the over-under on when a company will appear on an NBA jersey at five years, I would take the under. And if you put the over-under on when every NBA jersey is sponsored at a decade, I'd be awfully tempted.

Brother Wendell Maxey has an interview with former NBA coach Eric Musselman.

Stu over at NBANoise got to meet Darryl Dawkins.

It's worth noting that along with his standard signature, he also signs the words "Choc Thunder."      

Remember the long lost "Dwight Howard or Emeka Okafor" debate? John Ryan of the Mercury News goes back in the archives to dig out some funny quotes.

Sam Smith, Chicago Tribune, draft review: 1. Orlando, Dwight Howard. "Big mistake. ... Is he Kwame Brown? One thing's for sure, he's no Kevin Garnett."

Dirk's wifey is a hot mess. The latest on this sordid tale from Brad Townsend of the Dallas Morning News. If I really wanted to set off a flame war, I'd make a case for how much differently this thing would be handled by the media if Dirk was Black and Cristal Taylor was Euro/White, but instead I'll just make a hypothetical, passing reference to that line of reasoning. Taylor, in her defense, says...

"People are saying I'm some bad person because I made some mistakes years ago, but they don't know me," she says. "They don't know me like Dirk knows me. I'm a better person now.

"Nobody cares about the black girl that wrote the bad checks. I mean, give me a break. There are people in here who have done things 20 times worse. It's all about Dirk and his money. That's all this is about."

A die-hard Warriors fan has a pretty solid meltdown in email form to the team.

Drop other links in the comments please.

-- Ben (benjamin.golliver@gmail.com)

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Comments

Display:

Geez, Ben

I can’t even read all the BE stuff and here you throw all sorts of tempting links my way. I just gotta get me an exercise ball to sit on so I’m doing something besides just sitting & reading.

by jorga on Jun 1, 2009 11:45 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I love this one
He says Bayless is half a year to a year away from being ready.

Is it bad that i sacraficed a virgin cow in hopes that the god’s would screw up blakes’ surgery?

S

Though patience be a tired mare, yet she will plod. - William Shakespeare

Roses are red
violets in bloom
Sophia’s in love
with Nicholas Batum
-Bow4Meow

by BlazerFan1 on Jun 1, 2009 11:55 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

agreed.

That’s not… you shouldn’t admit to stuff like that, at least. ;-)

by sagcat on Jun 1, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes...

Unless you invite me over for some burgers!

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol i loved that answer. basically if bayless comes in and stars, he can quote himself and be like yayah baby, called it!

but if the season ends and Bayless hasn’t started, no crow to eat—he can still wait for next season, and even then if bayless doesn’t start, he can pull the “circumstances have changed” card.

But yeh, at least he’s writing. +1 for that. -2 for not being bold with prediction.

by prezofdeath on Jun 1, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do we get banned ....

 …. for calling Canzano an idiot?

Seriously, this guy knows squat about basketball. The team needs to seriously upgrade at three positions? It’s obvious that they have to do something right now if they want to compete? Speculating on trading for Chris Paul? I think I’m going to puke.

BTW – what is it with Canzano having to describe how people dress?

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Jun 1, 2009 12:02 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

No

He is an idiot though, you’re right about that..

Proud member of Duck nation!

by skywaker9 on Jun 1, 2009 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He seriously wrote an article about nothing that a 3 year old doesn't know

To win, we have to get better players.

Thanks cap’n obvious!

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

Epic post Ben. Thanks for all the good stuffs.

hmmmkay

by TylerM on Jun 1, 2009 12:04 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

See Fanshots for more stories :)

DX is really hitting home runs. I liked their interviews and workout videos for certain players. Blair and Flynn convince.
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Measurements-released-3236/

by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 12:13 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

draft dejuan blair.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

he'll be gone

but he’d be awesome. The dude is a force under the hoop.

Two other PF’s who intrigue me are Harongody and Hansborough, and we could probably get one of those two. We might even get Harongody in the second round. I know the knock on both of those guys is “their game won’t translate,” but scoff at all-american status, conference players of the year(s).

Harongody has led the Big East – yes, THAT Big East – in both scoring and rebounding both of the last two years. If he looks somewhat like he’s going to fall over at any given moment, that’s somewhat mitigated by his strength and production.

by sagcat on Jun 1, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

errg. gotta edit before I post

sry about unfinished sentenc

by sagcat on Jun 1, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Have to root for ORL

Can’t root for Faker Nation, ever…

Proud member of Duck nation!

by skywaker9 on Jun 1, 2009 12:16 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice to hear about GO

working out. Interesting that he said it was his first squat in like two years. I’m guessing he means post microfracture. They probably didn’t want him to put that kind of weight on his knee until now. If he beefs up his legs look out league. Nice to hear he is back at it after a well deserved break. Good for him and good for P-town!

"Death is not final," Gita says. "If any man thinks that he slays, and if another thinks that he is slain, neither knows the truth. The Eternal in man cannot kill: the Eternal in man cannot die. The soul in man is neither born nor does it die. Weapons cannot cut it; fire cannot burn it; water cannot drown it.

The Bhagavad Gita

by Idog1976 on Jun 1, 2009 12:34 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I know, huh?

Big news that Greg Oden is working out his lower body at full capacity again! Maybe more nimble feet and fewer missed dunks next season.

by sagcat on Jun 1, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

This is why I don’t understand all the bust talk. The guy was coming off a surgery that kept him from even doing squats last off season. Thinking he was anywhere close to 100% at all last year is just absurd.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

you know he wanted to work

given that his upper body got so developed. So his apparently 12 inch vertical leap had to have a rational explanation.

I had no idea he was prevented from doing squats at all until this past week. It explains a lot and seems to me to be a rather big bit of news. (do players usually avoid squats in season? I can’t imagine why they would, but I’m no insider.)

I also just really like the guy and would love to see him silence some critics.

by sagcat on Jun 1, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even if they don't do them during season

He couldn’t last summer either apparently. This means going into the season he was nowhere near 100%. He was also trying to relearn the game in a completely different body. Usually you are playing nonstop while getting bigger. See Dwight Howard. However, Oden was small and quick (by his standards) in college and then was suddenly beefy and slow in the NBA, but still trying to play the same game. Throw in the fact that it was his rookie year and there you have it, tough transition.

I’d LOVE to see a Quarterback take a season off, add 15 pounds of muscle and like 25 pounds total to his frame, and then come back and try to instantly succeed.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

not how i read it

I read it like a teenager talking, “like two years”. That could easily mean a few weeks… it’s been, like, 2 years.

I seen him doing leg lifts in a pre-season video i thought. Did he really not do squats?

by ItsMrHarris2u on Jun 1, 2009 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can help a little maybe.

At the Pac 10 level I have seen hoopsters lift legs, including squats, in season but only at about 70% to 75% of max and only twice a week. But many (decreasing) reps. In the two major knee surgery recovery/rehabs I am remotely familiar with they were off squats for a long time, more than a year, but Im not sure exactly how long. They did do a variety of other things, like presses, but at really low weights. Hope this helps.

Bedge or go home.

by Ojala John on Jun 1, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe Nash brought in Przybilla

And technically the old regime brought in Blake for the first run too.

Funny how Kevin gets credited for every good thing that’s happened to the franchise even by people trying to make the point that he isn’t as good as others credit him for.

—Dave

by Dave on Jun 1, 2009 1:09 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

i would imagine

that the Zach/miles/bonzi/woods and so on, all overwrite the good. After all, eventually you can get lucky if you’re half way trying.

"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.

But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html

by ratbastird on Jun 1, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

even a stopped clock

is right twice a day

bayless leaves over my dead body
sign mike bibby

by thomasikehara on Jun 1, 2009 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Canzano has slight problems putting events in the right chronological order anyway :)

He wrote in an article about KP getting snubbed for executive of the year 2008-09 that he should get credit for acquiring Blake. Problem is, that acquisition was over a year earlier. And then there was his idea of trading Raef’s expiring contract after the deadline. At least he corrected/removed both mistakes after Storyteller and I commented on it.

Yes Przybilla was acquired in August 2004, though it’s not impossible KP had something to do with it after having just become director of player personnel.

by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's also worth noting...

That according to Blazer lore, the previous regime chose to trade Steve Blake to the Bucks while KP was kicking and screaming in the background… then KP brought him back the first chance he had, by outbidding the Nuggets.

So, while the previous regime gets credit for taking a chance on Blake, KP gets credit for keeping him on the team.

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nash deserves credit for getting Joel

but from what I remember KP is the one that wanted Blake, but we can never know for sure who tought what.
For example, people always say that KP wanted CP3 at the 2005 draft, I surely hope so but I don’t know if it’s true

by Falcao on Jun 1, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well....it was KP who kept Joel

when his contract expired, and convinced him that he belonged in Portland. He turned down more $ to stay here. KP does deserve SOME credit in regards to Joel.

by antediluvian on Jun 1, 2009 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does Ben get flagged

For linking to an story that was written 5 days ago?

2-4 the who

by 24thewho on Jun 1, 2009 1:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

don’t flag me!!

flag the writers who haven’t written in weeks!!!!!

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The big Chris Bosh news is out!!!11111!!!

http://www.chris-bosh.com/

He releases a DVD and CD with Warner Music Canada in the fall, and an iPhone app now. Blech! I feared it was some PR stuff, but hoped for something more substantial.

by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 1:38 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

lol - be careful what you hype

this is the PR equivalent of crying wolf.

It’s never occurred to me when watching basketball, “man, that guy can really play. If only i could hear him sing!” Or “That guy’s got serious game. If only he had an iPhone app.”

by sagcat on Jun 1, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well maybe if you read between the lines, the fact it’s Warner Canada and not Warner USA has some meaning… Although it probably just means his A&R wasn’t sure about his US hit potential.

by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The issue isn't Rose not being able to pass the SAT...

it’s the allegation that someone else took it for him.

by lama on Jun 1, 2009 2:00 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

you don’t have someone else take the sat for you if you can pass it.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You could.

But, cheating is the bad part. No one would be angry if he failed. Failure’s an acceptable option. He likely wouldn’t have been a No. 1 pick, but hey, he’d be honest.

Those rules really preclude certain people from becoming successes. The machinations of college basketball are such that faking or cheating their is permissible on an ethical level because the process is anything but fair to them.

I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich

by hobobob on Jun 1, 2009 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

plenty of people would be angry if rose had failed to qualify academically for college: namely his family, coaches, the universities recruiting him, etc.

far more people are angry with him if he fails than if he cheats. that’s the environment these kids live in.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with him

In this case, I don’t think cheating is a bad thing. I know I said it was, but I didn’t really mean it. Man, it’s like you don’t even know me any more.

I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich

by hobobob on Jun 1, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I haven't taken the test, but how hard is it with specialized tutors? Roy with a learning disability ultimately aced it

Of course the whole “why should athletes have to go to college and not get paid for it” is a big discussion. And I suppose more repercussions will hit his university than him. But isn’t tuning his high school GPA reportedly from a D to a C rather a sign that others around him cheated, and that he didn’t try hard enough and/or failed under pressure?

by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course the whole "why should athletes have to go to college and not get paid for it" is a big discussion

Oh boy… I am going to be on the complete opposite side of the majority of people in that debate. That’ll be entertaining. I’ll personally turn it into a long thread probably.

If Rose couldn’t pass the SAT’s, so what?

First, a lot of community colleges, especially local ones, take people with poor SAT scores. Lots of players have been a success after starting out at a Community College (and, really, Rose was likely a high draft pick no matter what. Perhaps not #1… but he would have shown his skills at got paid eventually no matter what).

Second, there’s always Europe or the farm system to hone his skills (I really wish the NBA would improve the farm system, it’s not prepped for this purpose)

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

roy didn’t ace his sat. he passed. acing your sat (perfect score) is incredibly difficult — i think something like less than .5% ace the test.

passing the sat is statistically not very difficult. off hand i would guess you have to be in the bottom 20 or 30 percent to not qualify academically for college. someone should do some digging to fact check that.

a lot of it depends on the environment you grew up in. because most of the members of this site passed the sat with ease doesn’t mean all d1 athletes are able to do the same. there are plenty of kids that are functionally illiterate or close to it that make it into big time sports one way or another. there are also a lot of kids nowadays that miss extended amounts of time to travel and play basketball year round. the sat is an afterthought. maybe that’s not how it should be but it is. test prep can be expensive and not a viable option for many kids. depending on the school they attend, they probably do not get adequate counseling until it’s too late.

in rose’s case, given his high profile as a recruit, there’s no question he should have had his ducks in a row. but in many families, big time athletes are the first kids that go to college and their support system isn’t in place to ensure success that a lot of us take for granted.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

roy didn’t ace his sat. he passed. acing your sat (perfect score) is incredibly difficult — i think something like less than .5% ace the test.

Also, most people who do ace it often take it multiple times, to finally get a perfect score. It’s a badge of honor for some folks.

So the percentage of people who ace it on their first try is even lower than the overall number. Low enough that local papers often write about the kid who does it.

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I got 1300

MY SOPHOMORE YEAR IN HIGH SCHOOL. Man what happened?….I used to be smart…..

by Sabonis4Ever on Jun 1, 2009 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

2400, but many schools only take the verbal and math (1600).

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was back then

I did it the final year when you didn’t have to write an essay.

by Sabonis4Ever on Jun 1, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know!

I took it junior year, got 1420 and then retook it senior year and got 1380. I lost 40 points of SAT intelligence in my final year of high school! By now I’m probably down to Rose’s level.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I had the option of retaking, but isn’t that kind of cheating? Trying to get a perfect score taking it four times doesn’t feel legit.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't retake it either

While it’s not cheating, it feels less honest.

The concept of re-taking the SAT is good for kids who didn’t realize how hard it would be, then learn they need to actually study for it and try again.

But to get a perfect score? Ugh.

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve known people who have taken it four times brag about their 1600…. still not the same, though. Just be happy with your 1560 and go home.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha yeah

It’s like QBs who get a 20 on the Wonderlic so they take classes on how to do better on it and then get a 30. Sorry buddy, we know you’re only as smart as your 20.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I tried taking it a second time because I felt like I made some mistakes that I shouldn't have.

But then I actually scored slightly lower the second time. So I got showed.

by pualo on Jun 1, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

By aced I meant Roy passed it in his second and third try with scores so high that the NCAA was suspicious how he had improved so much

I assume he couldn’t afford better tutors than players like Rose or Mayo had. Maybe Rose has a similar learning problem, I don’t know, but I assume if they had focused on this a bit more for a few weeks the required scores to go to a division II school (840) or a divison I depending on his other grades would have been very manageable. It’s likely a fault of both him and those around him that badly advised him.

Like I said I didn’t take the SAT, but I improved my GMAT from the 500s to the 700s although I suck at math with 2 Kaplan books and a weekend course. Maybe I’m more gifted to taking tests and come from a household were education was more important, but still the magic potion was hard work.

by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I improved my score from PSAT to SAT by 150-200ish just by studying a few days… there is so much information out there on how and what to study.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

it’s easy to tell a kid to work harder if he’s had educational and familial support his whole life. in the absence of one or both of those, it becomes exponentially more difficult to simply “try hard” and succeed at things like standardized tests. check the pdf for some stats below.

do you have two parents in the house? were you taught to read at an early age? are you a product of chicago’s public school system? were you simply passed through classes year after year without proper education? is there a border’s in rose’s neighborhood for him to buy a test prep book? does he have internet access? does his school have a counseling department? are his advisers college graduates?

a lot of these kids are coming from absolutely nothing or next to nothing.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn’t, and my school had no counseling. Otherwise I probably would have gone to a much more renowned university in the US/UK/elsewhere initially because I was very good in high school – through hard work – and then had a very difficult phase that put me on a much lower trajectory than many kids with lesser university entrance qualification. But I can’t claim to come from a violent bad neighborhood either, so it’s something in between.

I don’t blame Rose for not being a lauded academic, that wasn’t his goal and planned career path. And as stated below I think the NCAA system is in need of fixing. Only with all the handlers flogging around a high school sports star hoping to strike it rich later, one would assume they had prepared him better for this step in his way and told him how important that part was.

by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i hear you. re-reading it sounds like i was asking the questions about you personally rather than in general. sorry about that.

the problem is what if his handlers never went to college, don’t know the system and are a product of the same environment. what if they know much more about basketball than they do about academics. what if they get feedback saying “don’t worry the academics will sort itself out, just concentrate on making him the best player possible.”

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ding ding

are you a product of chicago’s public school system?

Last thing I saw had Chicago as the second worst K-12 education system in the country. Mad props to Detroit for failing even more.

Naturally there are many many schools in each system and not all are equal, but it wouldn’t shock me if Rose went to an awful school.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are sounding like an excuse machine there Ben.

Kids from single parent families do well in school. I know a few.

Saying guys like Rose come from nothing is not exactly true. They certainly may not have all the advantages a lot of us do, but that doesn’t prevent them from working hard to improve themselves and get an education. My dad and uncle grew up in what would be considered a poor environment today, a small coal mining town. My grandparents spoke little English at first and the school system in Vintondale was unlikely to have won any awards for excellence. Yet both managed to make it into college (paying their own way) with my uncle eventually getting a PhD in Chemistry and becoming head of a university’s Chemistry Dept and my dad graduating as a Chemical Engineer and eventually having his own company.

Hard work can overcome most obstacles. And who knows, if Rose and his family had emphasized education as much as basketball, perhaps this never would have been an issue. I can understand the emphasis on basketball, as that was probably his best ticket out and to the good life. But we needn’t make excuses for him.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Jun 1, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

not making excuses for him and i agree completely that hard work is and always will be the best path to success.

but you can’t ignore the demographic breakdowns and we can’t be surprised when kids don’t pass their sat’s after attending public schools in some parts of this country.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Having worked as a volunteer in education for some time ...

… I’ve found that the single most important factor for doing well in school – one that far outweighs all others combined – are the student’s parents. If the parents do not insist on their kids performing well and trying hard, if they don’t take an active interest in what their kids are learning, how much homework they are getting and how well they are doing in the classroom, then the kid’s odds go down dramatically.

The rest is just messing around the edges.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Jun 1, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ahh but is that genetic?!?

Parents who don’t care about their child’s education are usually the parents that aren’t that intelligent themselves. Their kids get their genes of course soo…. yeah.

(It’s actually influenced by both pretty strongly. Yay for twin adoption studies!)

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

who better to instill the value of hard work?

having taught in baltimore public schools i realize that parents are a luxury that a lot of kids don’t have.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow.

Baltimore should hire you for their tourism board.

Most orphans I have taught (in MUCH worse situations that Baltimore I’m assuming) have tons of drive, but little confidence.

The laziest low achievers always had a home where the parents didn’t SEEM to expect much.

Generalities… I know. Nearly useless when you approach any child.

The way I look at it is if I’m not personally involved in the kid’s life, my opinion is worth less than nothing.

by staylost on Jun 1, 2009 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh...
Most orphans I have taught (in MUCH worse situations that Baltimore I’m assuming) have tons of drive, but little confidence

.

You haven’t watched The Wire (by most media accounts a fairly accurate portrayal of life in the Baltimore streets) have you?

by portlandpete on Jun 2, 2009 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm... I've taught in Phnom Penh, Bangkok & Zambia.

I haven’t seen the wire, but have you heard of the Khmer Rouge?

These are kids who have been on the streets as long as they can remember, been abused, don’t know their ages, so many are physically deformed due to abuse or diseases like polio, and if they are old enough, they may have had the privilege of watching most of their family killed by their government…

Like I said, I’m just assuming though…

by staylost on Jun 2, 2009 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zambia, huh?

My college roomate was from Zambia. Mining Engineering Major and a smart kid. He told me that if a kid flunked out of a grade back home, he didn’t go back to school – he went and got a job.

Also (and this sort of changes my perspective on Rose) he told me that the big mining company was paying for his education and expected a multi-year employment to pay back their investment. He told me how many students in his situation would break the contract after getting their degrees. Tough situation.

by lama on Jun 2, 2009 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was on the other side of the country. In the jungle right beside South Luangwa Park.

The unfair contract situation there was small-holders growing cotton as a cash crop. Huge foreign cotton companies would ‘lend’ hand tended family farms cotton seed and fertilizer. Attached to this lending was a contract that said the company would buy any cotton produced at a price the company would decide at the time of purchase. Many people would of course end up in debt because the had to first reimburse the company for the seed and fertilizer the got. It wouldn’t be so bad if these people could READ the contracts…

Yeah, just one more reason to remember how little we know about Rose. We can generalize about theoretical situations, but we will never know exactly what was going on in his situation. It isn’t really our place to judge.

btw… anyone wanting a great country to visit in Africa, Zambia is gorgeous, packed with animals and great people, and safe.

by staylost on Jun 2, 2009 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay

You win. You’ve taught in worse places than Baltimore.

I shouldn’t have made that assumption that you were talking about situations in the US (showing the standard provincial US attitude).

I do want to note that while you have seen worse situations, just because they are worse doesn’t negate or trump Ben’s observations made in the Baltimore demographic especially how it relates to the general discussion of the public education system in America. Or to trivialize what kids in Balitmore have had to deal with.

I apologize if I offended you or your experiences.

As a side note, you should watch The Wire. Fantastic show, real or imagined.

by portlandpete on Jun 2, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

I didn’t mean to trivilize the situation of any child, nor act like none in Baltimore might have lives comparable with the worst situations in the world. I only brought it up because, well, you uh, called me out a bit there.

My point was simply that some parents can be worse for a kids future success than no parents at all (assuming there is some sort of caring influence out there).

It just seemed like a funny joke because Ben made Baltimore sound like hell. I’ve never been there so I was surprised and thought it was funny – I meant to be sarcastic in a friendly way.

Definatly no offense taken. I’m from Salem, OR originally, so I’m sure I should be glad I didn’t have to grow up in the troubled parts of Baltimore.

by staylost on Jun 2, 2009 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That seems a bit over the top.

Someone has to inseminate the mother and someone has to bear the child. Parents are not exactly a luxury either. Kids may have only one parent at home and that one may not care one way or the other. That isn’t the kid’s fault, but neither is it “society’s” fault.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Jun 1, 2009 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

parents are absolutely a luxury in some parts of urban america. in a class i taught with 18 kids, 1 had 2 parents living with them, 5 lived with 1 parent (all five were their mothers), the rest were raised by grandparents or other various family members.

look at the incarceration rates of black males in baltimore, look at the drug addiction rates, it’s really not over the top. it’s a reality.

less than 35 percent of baltimore city students (a generous figure) graduate from high school.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-04-01-cities-suburbs-graduation_N.htm#table

you think those other 65 percent have engaged parents?

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

odd question… but did Draft Kevin Durant have anything to do with your having lived in Baltimore?

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

no it had to deal with the fact that he was the best player that year hands down.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn’t saying that you didn’t think he was the best player… just wondering if you had gained an appreciation for his game by seeing him in high school.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i didn’t have a car and he was out in the burbs. :(

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

did your school have any basketball players of note?

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

the only good player to come out was wes unseld jr and that was 10-15 years before me. d 3 hoops will do that.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure why I thought Chicago was 2nd lowest...

My mistake on that earlier, that is the list I wanted to find.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think this is exactly where the high income/low income gap in education shows up

Speaking generally, high income parents take the time to talk to their kids, read to their kids, are able to enroll their kids in after school programs and summer camps, etc. Low income parents are often working two or more jobs, don’t have the means to enroll their kids in after school programs, etc.

by jksnake99 on Jun 1, 2009 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ben - you mentioned a pdf with stats for...

standardized tests. Where is that?

So, if you have time: Within reason, what changes would you make to the system?

And thanks for your thoughts on this.

by lama on Jun 1, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

changing the system? that’s a problem for obama.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh! Come On!

I mean the NBA’s 1-year of college policy and/or the NCAA’s reliance on the SAT for eligibility.

by lama on Jun 1, 2009 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

kids should be able to go straight from high school and they shouldn’t even be required to graduate high school in my opinion.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

it’s a cash cow… NCAA gets March Madness, NBA gets to see how the prospects fare in a free developmental league… beautiful system for the higher-ups.

Kids in Spain, like Ricky and Rudy, are pros from a young age… I dunno why we don’t have the same kind of system here.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You forgot 1

If they had banned it earlier, we’d have CP3!

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In Europe nobody cares about high school and college sports

There is nothing comparable to the NCAA at any level in any country I knew. High school sport is for physical education. Schools don’t compete against each other except for rare occasions. If you are serious about a sport, you join an amateur club. If you are really serious, you join one where also pros train.

by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is true for some sports in America

Albeit the less popular ones.
Swimming is my best example. Club swimming is 10x more important than high school swimming to the people that do both.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They'll be doing the same thing they are now

Gradually catching up to us because they don’t have to waste time with silly things like how many hours you are allowed to spend with your coach.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not even sure there is an age limit. Maybe 15?

Rubio played at a very very young age, an age where I though you wouldn’t even get a pro license.

by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He was 14 IIRC

They also wanted him to play on the U18 team when he was 15, despite the existence of a U16 team.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That being said, the top clubs in soccer, basketball, skiing, etc. are basically sports boarding schools. Rubio received more tutored and customized training than most US athletes. I doubt he has less of an education than your average freshman college student.

by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

15 is just the limit to play for the senior team

I imagine the rules are generally the same as soccer, where players start to become attached to club academies around age 10 or 11.

by Royster on Jun 1, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Recced 1000 times

The 1 and done rule is terrible. The NBA did it because the big stars were skipping college and making the college game “less enjoyable.” Big deal. The system is flawed, not the same in all countries, is already being worked around, and so on.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, the NBA did it for free marketing

If Durant enters the league straight out of high school, he’s just another sort of hyped guy that no one knows anything about. With a year in the spotlight at Texas, him entering the league is suddenly an event.

Even with Howard, there were debates over whether him or Okafor should be taken. Dwight was just an unknown.

Plus, the NCAA benefits due to getting these mega-talents driving up television ratings for march madness. Everyone benefits but the players.

by Royster on Jun 1, 2009 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand the free marketing

But Durant is going to be a big name in 2 years anyway based on his actual play.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed!

by lama on Jun 1, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

exactly. make sure they can speak, read, and write at a basic level (think: 10th grade)

and that’s good enough. if they can ball, they can come in the leauge.

by prezofdeath on Jun 1, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why do you think they shouldn't be required

to graduate high school? I don’t want to offend anyone, but graduating high school really isn’t so difficult that athletes should be given a free pass for not passing just because they are good at a sport.

This is that whole role model thing. I don’t necessarily think kids should look at professional athletes as role models, but the truth of the matter is that they do. When I have kids I don’t want them to think bailing on high school is a good idea just because their favorite athlete did and are now making millions.

Certified blazer.fangirl

by Roybot on Jun 1, 2009 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

it's not that it's too difficult

It’s just irrelevant to the job.

by sagcat on Jun 1, 2009 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

high school is irrelevant

to just about every job.

Certified blazer.fangirl

by Roybot on Jun 1, 2009 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

except for blogging

free internet.

"The problem with tweeners is that sometimes they’re exactly what you need to plug the hole and sometimes they are the hole."

-LaughingJon

by appel82 on Jun 1, 2009 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

that was a cool tangent i just read btw

"The problem with tweeners is that sometimes they’re exactly what you need to plug the hole and sometimes they are the hole."

-LaughingJon

by appel82 on Jun 1, 2009 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Literacy is pretty much required to have any control over your life.

I get the feeling that these 16 year old NBA rookies will be even worse at taking care of their cash than the current rookies. Can you imagine some of the stories of a kid having no education being totally scammed, in a legal way, out of his millions, ending up gimped by the physical play and poor and can’t even read….

I think the original democratic idea was that everyone who voted actually had some idea of how the system around them worked.

Illiterate people represent a failure of a nation.

The totally different problem we are running into is how poor HS education is.

by staylost on Jun 1, 2009 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are correct, sir.

Certified blazer.fangirl

by Roybot on Jun 1, 2009 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

With a specialized tutor, I don’t see why a kid couldn’t pass. Most of the math questions are more logic than actual advanced concepts… if you are tutored on how the reading questions look and should be answered, that’s not a huge deal either… a good tutor could tell a kid excactly what would be on the SAT.

I will say that mental fatigue is a bit of a factor. It’s a four or five hour test.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

what if you can’t read?

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

without good reading skills and a brief background in logic, the SAT would be very daunting. I guess that I assume too much…. there are a lot of people with learning disabilities, etc.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then you aren't qualified to go to college anyway

So the low SAT score would be pretty representative of your chances of succeeding (in classes) at college.

At that point, for kids who want to play basketball, it’s developmental league or Europe, if they can afford it.

Unfortunately, not everyone reaches their dream. It’s a sad fact of life, but still a fact.

If the NBA wants to help these folks make their way to the league, they’ll need a way to develop them outside of college. The primary goal of college is still teaching kids who are qualified to attend.

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

the NBA uses the NCAA as a free developmental league.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That doesn't matter

That can’t be the problem of the SAT exam, or the college admissions system. They need to have standards. They can’t say “Well, he got a 2 on the SAT, and has poor grades, but the NBA needs us, so let’s soak up resources for qualified students to enroll him and get him through college”.

I know it’s more complex than that (e.g. the amount of money that player may bring into the school), but that’s about the system, and that’s the NBA’s fault, and the NCAA’s fault for supporting it.

The answer is for the NBA and NCAA to realize they’re losing good kids, and fix the system… the answer isn’t to let kids into college who can’t read.

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That’s my point… the institutions should be able to have standards like they would for any other student. The NCAA isn’t a basketball developmental league, it’s an amateur association. Stern needs to have a program to help these kids that isn’t simply sending them to colleges, where they skate by on their basketball talent.

Remember Blair’s spanish tutor? I imagine that isn’t all that uncommon.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We're in full agreement

This needs to be fixed by the NBA.

The NCAA doesn’t want it fixed, because they’ll lose a bunch of players who bring money into their coffers.

I think the NCAA is being amazingly short-sighted. Again.

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s all about the money. March Madness = CBS megabucks.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It still would be too, even if they fixed the problems

In fact, I think it might get bigger.

They’re so short-sighted.

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's the traditional way to enter the NBA

I would assume many players, especially the fringe pro players, are happy about the education they get. Especially when they can get into universities that otherwise would be closed to them. But for others, they don’t really come for the classroom education, they come for the renowned coaches and brand-name programs. I think something needs to change since the NCAA is along past the status of a pure amateur league where college students play against each other. I can see Ben’s point, while not supporting to cheat in these tests.

by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

plenty of kids can’t read and are in college.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you speaking of folks who cheated the system?

Or people who were educated enough to cover for the lack of reading? (Just making sure I understand which direction you’re trying to reach)

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We'd have to go on a case-by-case basis

This should be a rarity in itself, and usually only in extreme circumstances.

The ability to play basketball at a high level is not an extreme circumstance.

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whoa, this is an extreme generalization.

And outside of football/basketball athletes at powerhouse schools, is this really true? As someone who graduated from college and had plenty of interaction with other student, I don’t remember anyone not being able to read?

by senormateo on Jun 1, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

even if we limit ourselves only to d1 football and basketball players there are plenty that are functionally illiterate. there are just that many ways to game the system and that many poorly run secondary schools, particularly in urban areas.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gotcha

D1 Football/BBall is can believe.

by senormateo on Jun 1, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

err i can believe

My kingdom for an edit btton…

by senormateo on Jun 1, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

the profitable sports… interesting…

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's always the profitable sports

It’s usually not in a college’s best interests to close those loopholes.

I’d like to see somebody force those loopholes closed. The world wouldn’t end, and everyone would truly understand what it takes to get into an institution of higher learning.

There’s so much money being thrown around that it would be really tough.

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Isn't it the same with some legacy students getting into Ivy league schools?

I mean, not to get political here, but the last president had no business being in Yale and Harvard. And he is far from the only one.

by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No disagreement.

This definitely doesn’t just apply to athletes. It’s a very good point to note.

I get cranky whenever people are accepted for reasons other than their academic qualifications (and whatever else a college looks at for all students, like extracurriculars).

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's a system of privelage

Our country has been this way since the beginning. Tradition still dominates major parts of the United States.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do believe the last President

showed far greater accomplishment is school than many of his critics. Most pointedly the Hollywood types.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Jun 1, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is true

But he still didn’t do that great. You also don’t have to be better than someone at something to criticize them. For example, we all criticize and evaluate NBA players even though none of us are as good as the worst NBA players.

Less intelligent people can also look at a smart school and pick out the worst students in the school.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here is where I have a philosophical difference.

I tend to believe that people who haven’t done the same job as the person they are criticizing or if they have, have not performed as well, really shouldn’t be throwing out criticism.

Just because it is a free country, with us all having the right to say what we want, doesn’t mean it is the proper behavior.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Jun 1, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I will remember that next time you discuss the Blazer Dancers!

Kidding! I see your point and there is obviously merit to it. This is why analysts on TV are oftentimes former players/coaches even though they have no previous experience with talk media.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I only have commented on their

appearance. Not their dancing abilities. Rating a person’s attractiveness is purely subjective.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Jun 2, 2009 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In 20 -30 yrs. when certain things are declassified

Alot of people are gonna find out the last guy was smarter then they thought.

by We-B-Dunkin on Jun 1, 2009 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It won't matter a bit to them.

They never hated him because they thought he was stupid. They called him stupid because they hated him because he wasn’t one of them. It’s the new tolerance.

by MiledAnimal on Jun 1, 2009 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ickey Woods was found to be illiterate.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They're not going to tell you that they can't read

How many of your good friends have you even seen read? Some probably, but not all. A TON of people get by using other methods all while nobody else finds out that they can’t read.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, a ton is a relative term.

A recent estimate says 14% on Americans are considered functionally illiterate.

15m people hold down jobs which being functionally illiterate. At an approximate total of 156m in the workforce, it’s around 10% of the workforce.

That’s according to Business magazine (found through wiki).

Just wanted to solidify the numbers we’re talking about.

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No prob.

Though I should really proofread next time… it’s probably bad of me to have multiple grammar/spelling errors in a post about literacy huh?

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is all assuming the student doesn’t have a learning disability, of course. The test itself and the questions on it is easy to predict.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

Standardized tests pretty much only measure how well you know how to take them. It’s fairly easy to pass a test just by knowing how to take it, without actually knowing much of the material that you are being tested on.

Certified blazer.fangirl

by Roybot on Jun 1, 2009 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

norsk check out this pdf page 7.

http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/about/news_info/cbsenior/yr2005/2005-college-bound-seniors.pdf

chart of household income to mean sat score, pretty crazy stuff.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know rich kids who tutored for months and had access to… medications to perform better on the test. It’s a lot harder coming from a middle-class and below background.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

also, upper-class people have the ability to afford taking the test four times. The SAT only sends colleges your best test score, so taking it multiple times has no downside if you can afford it.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very good point.

‘Upper-class’ people have many advantages going into any situation like this.

(My main advantage was that my parents expected high level results and let me know that they had the confidence in me that I could do it.)

by staylost on Jun 1, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

same here. I didn’t grow up in a rich household, but was encouraged to pursue education seriously from a young age.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ditto for me.

And in the bigger picture, there’s more than just economic indicators at play here.

There’s always going to be some differences between people in economic classes (in terms of education and chances of success) as long as we’re in a free capitalistic society.

Despite that, some level of a person’s success (or failure) can be affected by the amount of drive that person has to succeed, no matter what walk of life they come from.

There are always limitations, and of course there are groups who never really get a fair chance. That’s a problem in a much bigger picture than just academic expectations.

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't colleges see how many times you took it too?

I thought that used to be the case at least?

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

nope, you choose to send whatever score you want. Colleges don’t have any idea of what your lower test scores are

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

interesting… I’m 99% positive on this. You pay the SAT to send your whatever score to whatever school you want.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are correct...however...

Quite often students fill out forms to have the scores submitted to specific schools, then later decide to re-take the test when they aren’t admitted to some schools.

by antediluvian on Jun 1, 2009 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lots and lots of fun stuff in that

Most is pretty clear logically, but something that you might not have thought of before seing it.

Juniors do better than seniors for example. It makes sense that smarter students would WANT to take the SATs sooner.

I am surprised that people with a B average in high school averaged under 1000 on the SATs though…

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it can be explained by grade inflation...

A ‘C’ used to be the acceptable, average grade. Now it is a bad one (or at least when I attended high school in ‘99-’03 it was).

by Autolykos on Jun 2, 2009 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah a C isn't remotely close to an average grade

But I got a straight up 3.00 in HS and I was like 35th percentile in my class I think. If the average score is around 1000 on the SATs you’d think that people getting around the 35th percentile would do better than they are. Of course, this is just one high school and my GPA/SAT score was an outlier anyway.

by Zaig on Jun 2, 2009 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also Ben

There is a ginormous correlation between education and household income. So, households that make more money are those with parents that have a higher education. Naturally, parents with a higher education will want their children to get a higher education and will care more about that sort of thing.

I find it interesting that IQs are never brought into the equation. A big part of it is because most people don’t get their IQs tested, but I also think that we like to keep the idea that “hard work pays off” in our culture.

Correlation wise, we know that education/income work. I’d bet that IQ/Income and IQ/Education also work. This means that smarter parents will get a better education and will make more money. Their kids will have the Gene + Culture advantages going for them.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Very well said

I wanted to type up the “this is deeper than just the correlation of SAT scores to income” but wasn’t up for it. Thanks for doing so… you get a rec for the effort.

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gladwell wrote an interesting article about IQ tests

a while back.
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2007/12/17/071217crbo_books_gladwell?currentPage=all

The main point that I got out of the article is that IQ tests have the same baises that the SAT has. From the article:

An I.Q., in other words, measures not so much how smart we are as how modern we are.

by tingeyga on Jun 1, 2009 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would explain...

Why my IQ keeps dropping… I’m not dumber, I’m post-modern.

So he said in himself: "O vilest of those wherefor was made the byword: 'The pilgrimage is not perfected save by copulation with the camel!"' Richard Burton, Arabian Nights

by -ken on Jun 1, 2009 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

IQ tests have little to do with modernization

The Math and Spatial challenges are universal. Shoot, even the verbal portion of the tests leans towards words that you don’t see as often in modern language.

by Zaig on Jun 2, 2009 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then how do you explain IQ test score creep?

If the IQ tests have little to do with modernization, why do they have to be “re-normed” periodically to maintain an average of 100?

by tingeyga on Jun 2, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Umm, because people are getting smarter

They could let the mean just keep going up to reflect this, but it’s a lot easier to keep a mean of 100.

Surely you don’t think people in 1900 were smarter than people now?

by Zaig on Jun 2, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure.

Yes, we have fancier technology, but relative place in time does not correspond with the ability to think (excepting maturation of the individual).

by lama on Jun 2, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No one should feel sure on something like this.

But if there is selective pressure to become better at logic and spotting patterns, then people should be getting ‘smarter.’

If you are talking about smarter generally, then we might just be talking about different things.

by staylost on Jun 2, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It is just plain easy. (to ace it is difficult/test fatigue kicks in after an hour for most)

If you have paid attention to halve of the days in class, you should breeze through it…

On the other hand, I have no idea if Rose had learning difficulties, family problems, or was just lazy.

It would be possible to ‘fail’ if you had a strong aversion to words and math all your life, had strong test anxiety, and never had any good teachers/mentors.

by staylost on Jun 1, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

test fatigue is brutal.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They randomize the sections and put all the English at the end… I wanted to tear my eyes out in hour 4.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know that might be why I did worse my senior year

Well firstly, I mainly retook it because my initial math score annoyed me. But I also ended with Verbal instead of Math the second time. I can do math in my sleep, but maybe ending with verbal after 3 hours hurt my score.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

same here…. my math scores rocked, but my verbal was a bit below my PSAT score.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The allegation, if proven true,...

indicates that Mr. Rose is a cheat. He may or may not be good at standardized tests. Fair or not, passing the SAT is a requirement to get into NCAA schools. My opinion of a player like Brandon Jennings who found a non-cheating way around David Stern’s stupid rule is greater than my opinion of one who cheats to get around it.

by lama on Jun 1, 2009 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

he’s innocent until proven guilty and if he cheated on his sat it doesn’t change my opinion of him one way or another.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

The system is so messed up that even if he did “cheat” it was in reality a whole bunch of adults that he trusted telling a 17 yo what to do. “You go here and do this and then switch forms with this guy. Don’t worry, Derrick, we’ll take care of it. Go work out.” I’m not sure there’s a lot of culpability there.

by sagcat on Jun 1, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow that is one pissed off Warriors fan.

I don’t blame him much though the organization took a crap on his Warrior heart. It’s too bad, every team out there needs more fans like him and his family.

"I've learned one thing, and that's to quit worrying about stupid things. You have four years to be irresponsible here. Relax. Work is for people with jobs. You'll never remember class time, but you'll remember time you wasted hanging out with your friends. So, stay out late. Go out on a Tuesday with your friends when you have a paper due Wednesday. Spend money you don't have. Drink 'till sunrise. The work never ends, but college does" - Tom Petty

by Work?nah... on Jun 1, 2009 2:32 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yup, I read that too

and since I’m a Blazer fan living amongst throngs of Warriors fans in the bay area (and admittedly jumped on the bandwagon during the 2007 season since the Blazers were going nowhere by playoff time), I have a few friends who are feeling similarly, though not quite as vocal.

It feels like, to both my friends and myself, that the Warriors are reverting back into a Clippers-type organization where people come to games only to see the opposing team. I guess that’s what an incompetent front office will do for a team. I just have to say that witnessing the camaraderie around this area when the Warriors were doing well was pretty electric, much like Blazermania in Portland these days or back in the Drexler era and hope as a semi-neutral observer that the Warriors can get something going like that again.

1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21... I know...

"'Five Dollar Foot-long' is one of the best songs. That's a hot song. You've got the FreeCreditReport.com, and then 'Five Dollar Foot-long' comes on. When 'Five Dollar Foot-long' comes on, they should play that in the club. They should play all those in the club."
~ Ron Artest (link: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-090515)

by FibonacciSequence on Jun 1, 2009 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Warrior story is a sad one

It looked like they may have given Mullin all the OJT he needed to be a good GM. Then, they fired him. – Elgin

VENTURA: It's drowning. It gives you the complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you -- I'll put it to you this way, you give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.

by 22baylor on Jun 2, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand that and agree with you to a point. However, your original point implied that the SAT is useless in determining anything of relevance about Derrick Rose. But if he had someone else take it for him, that certainly tells us something about him. It may not be as relevant as his percentage of body fat or his no-step vertical leap though.

And he is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

by lama on Jun 1, 2009 2:47 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

whether he cheated or not doesn’t change my mind about him so the sat is still useless in determining anything about him to me. you might feel differently.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

as someone who recently went through the college application process, even the colleges barely care about the SAT. It’s often a gauge of how much you paid for tutoring and how much your parents pushed you.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did you take the WASL?

Now there’s a test that is pointless. Sophomore year of high school=biggest waste of time. Entirely dedicated to teaching students how to pass it. Sad.

Certified blazer.fangirl

by Roybot on Jun 1, 2009 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Incredibly dumb test… proves nothing.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Umm...

I know lots of people who did fine on the SAT with zero tutoring.

by Autolykos on Jun 2, 2009 1:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

To me it is different.

I’m not trying to convince you.

The SAT is not entirely useless for Rose’s current profession. The knowledge it takes to master the test would serve a young ‘star’ like Rose well. So it has some sort of practical use to the player (but has no effect on the court (unless a more logical, well-spoken player is more respected as a court leader by other players),

But generally, the SAT is pretty meaningless for Derrick Rose’s future.

For me, just because something is pretty meaningless to you, doesn’t mean you are excused from moral clarity when dealing with it. The future of your child may matter little to the backup baby sitter you called at the last second. I would still judge that person guilty of a moral lapse if they mistreated your child. Plus, there is a general rule that everyone knows: baby sitters are not supposed to engage in child abuse.

1. Many people (especially the disadvantaged) depend on standardized tests to get into a college. If someone cheats and with that result gets into a program they otherwise would have been unable to, they displaced someone else. That is clearly wrong in my mind.

2. The general rule that we all know about tests is that we are not allowed to cheat. We all know what cheating is by the time we are through elementary school. If someone cheats on a test, they are quite clearly breaking our social contract. They, at some level, believe they should be allowed to act in ways they expect the rest of society not to. Acting this way is once again clearly wrong in my mind.

It doesn’t take an education to be able to intuit these two points, and a “genius/prodigy/pick-your-favorite-word like Derrick Rose” would know it as well as anyone.

Of course, every person should be considered individually, we don’t know Rose’s circumstances, and we are not the judges of this situation. Moreover, it is just rude gossip until it can be proven.

by staylost on Jun 1, 2009 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

nice points. i don’t think everyone views cheating in the same way you do. there’s a segment of the population that sees “if you aren’t cheating you aren’t trying” as the standard to go by. if scoring well a test like the sat becomes more difficult for people in your income level and ethnicity, the idea of cheating on that test becomes more gray and less black or white.

i’m not saying that’s how it should be, i’m saying that’s how it is.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I won't flag you, but I really do take deep offense at you making this statement:

“if scoring well a test like the sat becomes more difficult for people in your income level and ethnicity, the idea of cheating on that test becomes more gray and less black or white.”

I’m sure you don’t mean it, but you are saying that ethnicity is a determining factor in certain types of intelligence. If you do mean it, I am very worried. The problem isn’t ethnicity, it is socio-cultural practices attached to certain ethnicities (almost never through any larger blame to the ethnicity). The two should never be confused.

The best cheaters will always be the high-class. I my mind, again, anyone who takes the view of cheating as trying is not in favor of a meritocracy. If my Dad is on the school board and your Dad is in prison and we all look at cheating as trying, guess what: you are dirt compared to me when it comes to grades at our school.

Yes, Universities are quite aware that this is how it is. It is very sad for the kid from the poor family who studies hard and tries to do the right thing.

by staylost on Jun 1, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i’m saying the opposite of what you think i said.

i don’t believe there is a correlation between intelligence and ethnicity.

but higher sat scores doesn’t mean higher intelligence. it means you took the test better. look at the stats above. not every ethnicity scores the same on the sat.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not every ethnicity scores the same aggregate average on the SAT.

True. But it is a misleading thing to say in my mind. The problem was never the ethnicity and it is a pretty meaningless thing to attach to a childs test scores.

Certain types of intelligence would definately help on the SAT. Is the ability to memorize or think logically part of the definition of intelligence? For me it is.

by staylost on Jun 1, 2009 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

sure those things are part of the definition of intelligence but so are things like artistic creativity, resourcefulness, etc. that go unmeasured or undermeasured on the sat

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think there is a correlation between intelligence/ethnicity

But i don’t think it’s as wide as the ethnicity/SAT test gap. This isn’t racism or anything, it’s just evolutional probability. You have tons of ethnicities spending at very least many centuries in different areas. Naturally some will learn to excel in some areas and some will learn to excel in others.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i’m just not sure how to fairly construct a measure of raw intelligence.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In "Guns, Germs, and Steel" it is summarized nicely.

Intelligence is the ability to make successful decisions in the absence of time. Jared Diamond argued that evolutionary differences make the natives of Papua New Guinea more intelligent than anyone else, because they are among the few in the world whose genetic line is exposed to death for failing to carry this intelligence. Other countries, especially those in North America & Europe have the highest levels of stupidity due to the absence of any sort of natural selection that supports intelligence of any kind.

I disagree. I think Ben is correct that things like being artistic are important parts of intelligence as well. The most important thing to remember when talking about intelligence and evolutionary probablity is that intelligence is not easily definable. You may be able to memorize a sequence faster than your ethnically different peer, but that peer may be much more capable as expressing himself in rythm. Neither can be said to be more intelligent.

In terms of the SAT, I do not believe ethnicity plays any realistic part (except as helping determine your social, economic, and cultural background) in intelligence. What is this group that is not exposed to the same environmental pressures that you are? Just jungle dwellers in the Amazon and a few other places?

Deep in Zambia living among mud huts, where wild animals were the major problem, what was the number one indicator of a succesful life? Education level.

In the slums of Bangkok? Education level.

In the stilted villages along the Tonle Sap? Education level.

In the farms surrounding lake Titicaca? Education level.

If fitness is the result of education level the whole world round (excepting places with ‘welfare’ type programs), than the intelligence it takes to succeed in school (like passing the SAT) is continually refined in the interconnected human populations of our world.

Any support for there not being a similar intelligence in all peoples when they are exposed to these same pressures would rely on the absence of evolutionary forces, not their existance.

And according to at least one leading Biologist, those without a formal education have even more pressure to be intelligent… whatever that means.

by staylost on Jun 1, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's becoming like that in parts of Asia

Students run out of standardized tests with the forms/their notes if the tests are computer based, and those later get sold to people who need to do well on those tests. And they study like crazy for it, sometimes for a year. I know someone who teaches in the medical faculty at Carnegie Mellon, and in one year all his graduate students in a course were from China and India who had amazing test scores but couldn’t speak proper English in real conversations :)

by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Apology for anecdotal knowledge, there are certainly very smart people in these countries who do both well. It’s just something that I have heard and experienced myself, and the test scores reported from those two countries are much higher than the pool of truly qualified candidates.

by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

China + India have about eight times the population of the United States

Their pool of “qualified candidates” is probably greater than the population of the US…

by Autolykos on Jun 2, 2009 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You realize speaking English well or unwell isn't a mark of intelligence or aptitude...

English is probably their second language. Most Americans probably speak a second language much worse than those people were speaking English. I am not sure what point you are trying to make here. Is medical knowledge somehow limited by your English ability?

by Autolykos on Jun 2, 2009 12:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm...

If he doesn’t care about cheating on the SATs don’t you think he would be more likely to cut corners in other aspects of life… ala taking bribes or using PED?

I find it hard not to compare Roy to Rose in this aspect. Roy worked his butt off to be able to pass the SAT. Rose may not have had the support system that Roy did, but regardless, he might not have… he might have just cheated.

Even if the SAT is a 100% useless test, this shows you something about character.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

it tells me more about opportunity and support than character

seattle public schools > chicago public schools
roy’s advisers and support system > rose’s

i think cheating on the sat is a last resort type of thing. rose has a clean reputation otherwise and has been under the microscope for years.

by Ben. on Jun 1, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm, not sure... I'd have to know all the details

Rose must have taken the SAT and failed if he had someone cheat for him. If he did take it, when did he? Did he have time to try and study and improve himself? I mean, even with a bad support system, if someone says “you need a higher score to go play D1 ball” you’d think his support system would now see the importance of the test and try and help him with it. Of course, it’s possible he got his score back with little to no time to retake it and then chose to cheat? Just don’t know!

Regardless, I can hold it against someone because I know of plenty of people with crappy support systems that have defied the norms. I’m not going to dislike the guy for it or think any less of him as a player, but I will always know that he took the easy way out.

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

rose has a clean reputation otherwise and has been under the microscope for years.

Well… that’s a fine line. If this is just coming out now, maybe the microscope was out of focus before. Only time will tell now.

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

if he were in trouble, we would have heard about it immediately. The John Wall firestorm over the misdemeanor proved that.

proud hinrichsheeple

by Cablinasian on Jun 1, 2009 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, but it's the stuff that doesn't result in arrest that comes out over time

I actually don’t expect any other bad news from Rose, but I don’t trust the microscope at this point. So it would no longer surprise me if more bad stuff came out later.

by Timmay! on Jun 1, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So...

This is a slippery slope. When is it NOT ok for someone to cheat on the SAT? Is it ok to cheat on the MCAT? Is it ok to cheat on the LSAT/Bar exam? What occupations are you ok with having cheated on the SAT? Where is the line drawn for you?

by Autolykos on Jun 2, 2009 1:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

funny thing

the LSAT has nothing whatsoever to do with what you do in Law School, and the Bar exam has nothing whatsoever to do with either what you did in law school or what you do as a lawyer.

So widespread cheating on either of those would have little impact on the quality of lawyers we have.

They are merely institutionally generated obstacles designed to give the institutions a raison d’etre.

by sagcat on Jun 2, 2009 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And keep the supply of lawyers down,

which keeps the price they charge up.

by MiledAnimal on Jun 3, 2009 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Off topic Ben, but since you're here!

Tell USMCR that he needs a profile picture! The assigned one just isn’t doing it for me. :-)

by Zaig on Jun 1, 2009 3:44 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Any guesses...

on which sponsors will be on Blazer unis in ten years?

by lama on Jun 1, 2009 5:00 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Apple

Just to stick it to Paul Allen

by tingeyga on Jun 1, 2009 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing to add...

I just want to say that, although it was kind of a thread hijack, the conversation dealing with education, test taking, etc., was a great read. There are some passionate and intelligent people around these parts. Of course, I already knew that.

So he said in himself: "O vilest of those wherefor was made the byword: 'The pilgrimage is not perfected save by copulation with the camel!"' Richard Burton, Arabian Nights

by -ken on Jun 1, 2009 5:08 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Ben

props for digging up so much stuff my man..
keepin me busy..

by GreatOden'sRaven on Jun 1, 2009 5:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

As an extension of the discussion: Chicago is known to use psychological tests for its draft picks. So Rose must have done that at least well enough

http://blogs.suntimes.com/bulls/2009/05/strange_things_indeed.html

The Bulls are known for their anything-goes workouts of draft prospects, and not just with the physical play on the court. Arizona guard/forward Chase Budinger, who was held out of the physical play due to an ankle injury, said the Bulls psychological testing was also much different than others he has undergone.
“They had a very interesting psychological test,‘’ Budinger said. "They had a guy who you were playing with blocks, you were drawing pictures, memorizing things. I thought it was a pretty cool process.’’

by Norsktroll on Jun 1, 2009 5:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Here's a comment about my buddy Hashweed to the article on Slam Online that I like...
Jukai Posted: May.5 at 9:13 am

I’ll give him 20 bucks to mow my lawn. That’s his worth. You guys are insane, saying he’s worth eight million. Maybe eight million over sixteen years.

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Jun 1, 2009 5:56 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Canzano wrote this:

Said Pritchard: “Man, seriously, if you only knew who I was talking about.”

That sounds like KP is looking at some kind of major deal, not just shoring up the weak spots and not one of the names that’s been talked about a lot (like Hinrich or Conley). I started to speculate, but since I have zero information, I will refrain.

Sticking up for Travis Outlaw since 2008 and Steve Blake since last week..

by Kaboomm on Jun 1, 2009 6:26 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

That comment

could also have been a referendum on the knowledge of the hearers.

“Man, seriously, if only you knew who I was talking about.”

“Batman???”

“No. Batman doesn’t actually play basketball.”

“But if he could you’d get him, right? Because he’s cool.”

“Actually I was referring to Gerald Wallace. He’s an athletic small forward for the Bobcats. We want him because he plays defense and runs like the wind. He can also dunk like you wouldn’t believe.”

“Batman runs fast too. And with the Baterang he can swing up way higher than the hoop.”

“For the last time, forget Batman! Gerald Wallace. We’re going after Gerald Wallace.”

Gerah whoozah?

(sigh) I knew you wouldn’t know who I was talking about.

—Dave

by Dave on Jun 1, 2009 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha ha ha

Sticking up for Travis Outlaw since 2008 and Steve Blake since last week..

by Kaboomm on Jun 2, 2009 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol at bashing the SAT, it's been a pretty standard test for a long time

And I’ve yet to see the evidence that Rose is a genius because he can dribble a basketball well.

Blazer Fan

by leeroyjenkins on Jun 2, 2009 6:51 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Also I don't really get the craziness over Lebron leaving the arena abruptly, shouldn't the focus be on why his team got pwned?

Yeah yeah I know match-ups, right?

Meanwhile God himself couldn’t win a series and that is troubling to me. If God himself can’t win a series, WHO CAN???!!!!! /snarkbite

Blazer Fan

by leeroyjenkins on Jun 2, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess it depends

on what you consider a genius. Is it only academic success that defines a genius? I don’t think Jimi Hendrix was going to split the atom, but I think you’d find it hard to find a musician who doesn’t consider Hendrix to have been a genius with the guitar. Do we isolate the word “genius” to academia?

I actual agree that the SAT gets a bad rap. I think in general, those who do well on it in will do well in school (Zach Morris notwithstanding), but it is a very focused test that only indicates academic potential. Which is fine. It is what colleges (for the most part) are looking for. The problem is that it is a part of the developmental system of US Basketball players and the two don’t necessarily mesh because why does an NBA player have to care about academics if he doesn’t want to?

by portlandpete on Jun 2, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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