Stop Advocating "Toughness"

by thetsaiguy on May 9, 2009 11:05 AM PDT

If anyone's been remotely following the playoffs, there have already been like 5 ejections. First, there was Dwight Howard's prominent elbow, then there was Derek Fisher's shoulder (or was it elbow?), then there was Artest trying to start something w/ Kobe, and most recently there was Kendrick Perkin's throat foul. And I know I've missed several.

For all the people wanting to get Artest or somebody who "isn't afraid to dish a flagrant foul or two"............................................................................why?

Why in the WORLD would you want some stupid brute who likes to hurt people playing for your team/city? Why? The guys on Houston, Lakers, Celtics, whatever are still humans. They're not some evil thing the Blazers must purge from the face of the Earth by whatever means possible.

Kendrick Perkins... going for the THROAT? WHY? Btw he looks like a stereotypical devil when he's frowning.

The culture we've cultivated in Portland is the most classy, most likeable type out there. We've got a team full of nice guys (well, with some very minor exceptions) who would never dream of earning a flagrant by means of which the guys in the playoffs have. Of course, we've gotta be mentally tough, but "mentally tough" doesn't exclusively mean having the desire to start a fight. Real mental toughness is walking away from a fight.

So why? Why would you want to bring in a low-life like Ron Artest? He doesn't fit our culture and is has the competitive mindset of a kindergartener. We've got way better guys.

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Guys go crazy because they're all on Roids.

"There goes Brandon Roy... the best there ever was in this game"

by two buck chuck on May 9, 2009 11:18 AM PDT reply actions

Don't say that too loud

or Stern might hear and begin crusade against the Blazers.

Blazers+Blazersedge=Mind Blown

by TappedPotential on May 9, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions

I hear Stern

is fining civilians now for criticising his league. Yes, it is his league, not yours.

Stay off espn and nba.com posting messages that could be seen as an open critique agains the players, referees or management of the NBA.

"Both Anthony Carter and Jameer Nelson were downright jubilant in the Magic locker room postgame. Carter said to no one in particular, "Brandon Roy, that man is unstoppable, it's like he's playing NBA Live" and Nelson was cracking on his teammates for not being able to guard Brandon. The kinds of jokes you can make when you win."

by loyal_blazer on May 9, 2009 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions

A lot of people think that "toughness" = defense

which is not always the case.

I want Battier (hand in your face) type defense, not Artest (head butt to the throat) type.

it was a clear black night, a clear white moon

by In Walks Rudy on May 9, 2009 11:47 AM PDT reply actions

Too true

by upper left corner on May 9, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions

Dude...you got it all wrong....

There is a difference between being tough and being a thug. Battier is tough, Artest is a thug. I want a tough player, not a thug.

by swg777 on May 9, 2009 11:47 AM PDT reply actions

Przybilla is tough. Derek Fisher is tough.

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on May 9, 2009 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions

What about Birdman...

Tough? or Thug?

"There goes Brandon Roy... the best there ever was in this game"

by two buck chuck on May 9, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions

tug?

Come on you gotta listen unto me,
lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be. ~Johnny Cash

by HurraKane212 on May 9, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions

He blocks shots.

I’m not sure that makes him tough. Has he even been thrown out of a game before? Has he ever thrown a punch?

He is a clean player who plays good defense. Having long hair and lots of tattoos doesn’t necessarily make you tough or a thug.

Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .

by Nick Van Excellent on May 9, 2009 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

I've said it before

he exudes a pompous arrogance that may or may not mean much to people who follow his every game, but to the casual observer (and I am a casual observer since I rarely watch Nuggets games), he comes off as a self-aggrandizing journeyman who believes he’s carved himself a nice little niche with his tattoos and mohawk and nickname, and thus, he appears to have this delusional sense of grandeur that he carries with him.

I know the NBA is a league of characters, to be certain, but would any casual observer of the Blazers accuse any of the current team members of the same type of behavior? I don’t think so, the Blazers are likely viewed as a pretty humble bunch, and Andersen’s personality doesn’t fit that description even crudely, from a cursory glance.

1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21... I know...

by FibonacciSequence on May 11, 2009 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions

Filling our 3 spot is a tough thing

what i mean is…….we need someone that is pretty specific skill wise. My ideal 3 man on this team is a premier defender, a smart all-around player, a good to great scorer but he can’t “need” the ball, he’d be 3rd option ideally, and if possable i’d like him to not be a “thug.”

Ron Artest somewhat fits this profile: he is a premier defender but he is on the downward slope of that. He can be a smart player but throws up some god awful Allen Iverson type shots that make a person and coach want to spit. He doesnt “need” that ball which is good. He would be a good 3rd option guy. And as far as a “Thug” i think he absolutely used to be but look people……he will be 30 years old soon and i know not everyone grows out of the thuglife but i do think he has based on several things the biggest of which is that he is playing in houston right now. Houston doesn’t exactly tolerate thugs they are a classy organization.

My vote to fill our SF spot is Caron Butler. Please E-mail, Snail mail, or just yell at K.P. the next time you see him walking on the street to “go get caron butler!!” lol

by blazerbeliever97504 on May 9, 2009 12:34 PM PDT reply actions

Interesting take

Most posters here think that Webster and Nic are a pretty good bet to develop into the kind of combo we need.

Webster: shooter who can defend and run the floor

Nic: defender who can shoot and run the floor.

Most posters think a back up 4 and a PG upgrade are higher priorities. Why do you seem to disagree, and what price would you be willing to pay for Butler?

by upper left corner on May 9, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions

Butler

Named to the all-no-defensive team of 2008…..

Offseason:
Trade For Mike Conley Jr
Draft Kevin Seraphin/Edwin Jackson
Sign Othello Hunter & DJ Mbenga(Both for big man depth)

by TheGreatDane17 on May 9, 2009 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions

Apparently it has been way too long since people have seen Martell play.

I don’t remember this defense that you speak of.

I heart taxes.

by everett on May 9, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions

I think, I phrased it as, "a good bet to develop.....

….into a shooter who can defend"

As I recall, Martell started showing some real progress over the last half of the season. I wasn’t watching nearly as closely as I did this last year when I saw almost every game. I do distinctly remember a featured piece from Quick talking about Martell’s increasing buy-in to the importance of defense, and stating that both Nate and KP felt he could become the teams top perimeter defender.

Now that was over a year ago. Before Nic, and before his injury. I do think that Martell has decent size, strength, and quickness to be a decent defender at both the 2 and the 3. Whether he has the attitude and the technique who knows.

I’m curious about others impressions about Martell’s potential as a defender?

by upper left corner on May 9, 2009 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions

You're right

I was hasty, and didn’t read the comment well enough; my bad.

I heart taxes.

by everett on May 9, 2009 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions

Too bad Butler isn't available

So you can save your time and move on.

Representing DC with Wizards & Stuff - Truth About It.net and Bullets Forever.

by Kyle Weidie on May 10, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions

I would be for a "tough guy" to fill out our roster, especially taking one PF spot

Constantly fouling people hard out of clumsiness (Big Baby) or bad intention to show how tough he is however shouldn’t be part of the job description.

by Norsktroll on May 9, 2009 12:59 PM PDT reply actions

My take on Toughness

I too find the frequent calls for toughness a bit hard to take.

I think there are a combination of factors that go in to it:

1) Fans want to win and many have bought in to the myth that “nice guys finish last.” I would point to Duncan, Olajuwon, and Magic as examples of good guys who were winners without resorting to lots of dirty play.

2) I think a lot of fans are young guys who are a bit enthralled with demonstrating their testosterone levels, or older guys with bellies sitting in their Barcoloungers who want to assert their manliness. Trash talking is as big among fans as players. Call it the Jim Rome effect.

3) Excellence in basketball does require a team to stand up to the physical pressure of the opposing teams defense and their work on the glass; however, toughness is not thugishness.

I would rather win with a team of good guys who are tough.

I would rather loose than compete with a bunch of thugs.

by upper left corner on May 9, 2009 1:15 PM PDT reply actions

Rec...

You spoke my mind.. good for you…. Toughness is not thugness and like you.. I don’t believe in win at all costs… spoils the game… and the game is everything.

by Roadblazer on May 9, 2009 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions

Tough vs. Thug

There is a fine line between a tough player and a thug. Thugs are weak minds trying too hard to play tough. I get your point, but I don’t think your headline isn’t really backing you up.

"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."

by GonzoFan on May 9, 2009 2:11 PM PDT reply actions

“I don’t think you’re headline IS really backing you up”. Is there a computer equivalent to white-out on this thing?

"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."

by GonzoFan on May 9, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions

Let me explain better...

Tough is players like Maurice Lucas, Ben Wallace, and Bill Russell. They are smart enough and good enough to be “tough” without having to try and hurt people. Thugs are players like you mention in your post trying too hard to be tough and going about it the wrong way. As for the comment about your headline — I’m just saying we do need to advocate toughness. Just the right kind of toughness. Not the “thug” kind in your examples (which I agree with).

"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."

by GonzoFan on May 9, 2009 2:17 PM PDT reply actions

UMM On Ron Artest....

Think about it like this. If Joel took a blatant Kobe elbow to the throat, how would he have reacted? I bet dollars to donuts that he goes and gets in Kobes face EXACTLY like Artest did. The funny thing is that people would be praising Joel to high heaven for not taking Kobes ish, but Artest is a thug or a “low life” for doing the same thing? Pretty dumb line of thinking in my opinion.

Artests second ejection isn’t even worth mentioning, that was a hard personal foul at worst. Nothing flagrant or “thuggish” about it. The nba will knock it down from a flagrant 2, that was a simply ludicrous decision by the refs. And while I am at it, the first ejection was pretty borderline unfair as well. One tech on Artest was the right call, an ejection was over the top.

Here is the deal, we can pretend like the nba is all daisys and roses or we can except that dirty plays happen, and every quality team needs an enforcer to protect their star players from getting beat down. Hard fouls are part of the NBA, they always have been. I don’t want some soft ass team that gets pushed around and “stays classy” about it. I don’t hear too many people referring to Maurice Lucas as “thuggish” or a “low life” because he knew how to lay some wood when needed. Perspective people…

RUDY > MJ

by myemic23 on May 9, 2009 3:17 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs

+1

enforcers are always loved by thier team fans, hated by the others. Any enforcer playing the Lakers is automatically loved by everyone.

by svlittle on May 9, 2009 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions

Agreed,

I was thinking: “good for Ron-Ron.”

I heart taxes.

by everett on May 9, 2009 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions

You are way off about Artest

"The brownies,'' Fernandez said after the game. "The brownies are good for me to make three-points.''

by Sabonis4Ever on May 9, 2009 3:41 PM PDT reply actions

It's not the yelling that makes Artest a thug

He’s been the type to get physical and punchy for some time now. Auburn Hills, anyone?

That said, he’s been downright civil compared to some of the insanity we’ve seen so far. If we’re looking to get a tough, physical player AND fill our PG spot at the same time, why don’t we just pick up Rajon Rondo? He’d leave the rest of the PGs in the West in body casts by the time the playoffs rolled around.

by notjames116 on May 9, 2009 4:26 PM PDT reply actions

well, I doubt boston is going to just give him up

while we are out why don’t we just get Lebron James

by svlittle on May 9, 2009 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions

Auburn Hills?

Greatest moment in NBA history.

by usmcr3049 on May 11, 2009 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions

I advocate toughness. I think Houston is tough.

I personally do not advocate the slapping and hacking that some teams employ and seem to get away with… but hey, if you can get away with it, more power to you… but that’s not the same as toughness.

I do not advocate cheap shots. The biggest fallacy that the media seems to fall for is equating cheap shots with being “tough”. I only saw a little bit of game three, but in the first two games, the Rockets were tough, and the Lakers were cheap shot artists (spare me your revisionist history, Zen Master).

I do advocate fouling intentionally on the floor when there are three seconds left, the opponent has the ball in three point territory, and you have a foul to give. Dallas did this, the refs didn’t call it, and they got screwed over royally (reminiscent of the 2006 Finals and the 2002 WCF). That’s tough.

MLB2PDX!!! (someday...)

by The Cactus Leaguer on May 9, 2009 6:54 PM PDT reply actions

You should rename this thread "Stop Advocating "Winning"

Playoffs are rough. Adapt or lose.

Blazer Fan

by leeroyjenkins on May 9, 2009 6:56 PM PDT reply actions

You shouldn’t let guys disrespect you in the NBA. If the opposing player hits you, hit him back.

From Russia With Love

by L-TrainFTW! on May 9, 2009 7:54 PM PDT reply actions

so you're thrown out too. It makes no sense whatsoever. WHY?

and don’t say it ‘fires up your team’ or whatever. If LaMarcus is hit by Boozer and he decks him back, we lose our number two option, not able to take advantage of their now post weakness.

This year is NOT a building season!!

by collectiveshane on May 9, 2009 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions

You dont walk up and deck them. that would be stupid....

You wait for them to attack the basket and you put them on their butt(while going for the ball of course). Take a flagrant 1 or hopefully just a personal and consider the message sent. You can be tough without being dirty…

RUDY > MJ

by myemic23 on May 9, 2009 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions

I'd rather see LaMarcus knock Boozer out than see the Blazers win if it was just a regular season game.

From Russia With Love

by L-TrainFTW! on May 9, 2009 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions

Oh, man, what's that guy's name..

the one who punched the other guy right in the head during the playoffs or finals or something.

He was a total thug. Not somebody we’d want on our team.

Oh, right. It was Maurice Lucas. That was his name.

It's = It Is
Its = Belongs to It

by 12sharks on May 9, 2009 8:00 PM PDT reply actions

Different era

"You're welcome friend
I love you."
- Tom "Dragline" inHawaii

by 92wastheyear on May 10, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions

You don't have to be a "dumb brute" to be tough. Kobe's tough as nails, but smart. So's Paul Pierce. So's--gasp--Anderson Varejao and--mouthpuke--Joakim Noah.

What I want is for Oden & LaMarcus to develop a little of THAT kind of toughness rather than the “okay referee sir I’ll back off now & let my man get great position every time down the floor” attitude I see from them now.

by Marvin100 on May 9, 2009 9:36 PM PDT reply actions