Blazersedge: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: RSL Soapbox for Real Salt Lake Fans!

The Season in Review: Jerryd Bayless

We continue our romp through the "B" players today with Jerryd Bayless.

If you haven't read the conversation guidelines for these threads, please take a look before commenting.

Jerryd Bayless 2008-09 stats:

Games Played

53

Games Started

0

Minutes per Game

12.4

Points per Game

4.3

FG ATT per Game

3.6

FG%

36.5%

3PT ATT per Game

1.5

3PT%

25.9%

FT ATT per Game

1.9

FT%

80.6%

Off Rebs per Game

0.2

Def Rebs per Game

0.9

Total Rebs per Game

1.1

Assists

1.5

Steals

0.3

Blocks

0.0

Turnovers

1.1

Personal Fouls

1.5

Effective FG%

38.4%

PER

8.2

Plus/Minus

-0.43

Asst/TO Ratio

1.36

The moment he began lighting up the Vegas Summer League like a Peacock Lane windowpane it became apparent that Jerryd Bayless had gifts that distinguished him not only from his fellow Blazer point guards but most of the team--gifts in short supply and thus potentially valuable.  His chiseled physique and heft allowed him to bully opposing players and absorb contact on both ends of the floor.  His aggressive drives netted whistle after whistle, which he converted into points via his excellent foul shooting.  Whether he got fouled or not his knack for finding seams in the defense allowed him the opportunity to demonstrate his strong finishing skills at the rim...demonstrations which were met by the sounds of jaws hitting floors instead of the normal applause.  He also showed some agility on defense and more importantly the desire to make use of it.  Finally he evidenced a fire inside, usually leaked through a glare.  The emotion was raw, unbridled, hinting at an aura of danger and unpredictability.  Blazer players come in two basic flavors.  Some of them will deftly parry your strike and riposte with consummate skill, flourishing the saber with a smirk as they sheath it in triumph.  Others will just club you until you hurt enough to let them have your way.  Bayless is different.  Bayless explodes.  Observers and fans alike were speculating about the effect this new wrinkle would have on Portland's production.  That speculation ran the gamut from astonishment to giddiness to jealousy.

So what happened?

Sure, we saw some great games from Jerryd during the season.  He scored 23 in a win in New Jersey on January 15th and followed it with 14 in a loss to the Bobcats two days later.  He scored 19 in a victory against the Hornets on February 2nd and followed that with 14 again two days later in a loss to the Mavericks.  All of this happened in Steve Blake's absence, however.  Before Steve left and after he returned Bayless' minutes and contributions remained uniformly low.  We never saw the revolution.  We barely got a glimpse of its promise.

The stock answer in these situations is that there's something wrong with the coach.  There's this brilliant talent just waiting to jump in and change the team and for some reason the coach just won't open his eyes and play him.  (Or play him more, or play him in better situations, or change the style of game to fit him, or whatever else you care to insert here.)  There are a couple of overarching fallacies here.  First, three of the four rookies played reasonably big minutes this season, so Nate doesn't have an aversion to using them.  Jerryd himself averaged 12.4 minutes per game, roughly equal to what Sergio Rodriguez got in his rookie season and considerably more minutes than Sergio got his sophomore year.  Also the back-up point guard spot and even some of the starting minutes (minutes, not position) were wide open this year.  They were begging to be taken.  The only guy who could claim them with any consistency was Blake.  I suspect there were moments when Coach McMillan would have loved to see another point guard on the horizon...anywhere.  It never happened.

What did happen?  Jerryd Bayless was a rookie, that's what happened.  Rookies occasionally play well.  Rookies also have a hard time holding onto regular playing time on good teams...teams whose focus is winning.  Jerryd wasn't a bad rookie.  He wasn't a "let's amaze everyone because we've been pros for six years" rookie in the mold of Nicolas Batum or Rudy Fernandez either.  He was just a rookie.  Nothing wrong with that.  Three years ago he might have gotten plenty of minutes to blow through in a quest to develop him.  This year he might have gotten plenty of minutes with the Clippers or Kings.  The 2008-09 Portland Trail Blazers chasing 54 wins and the playoffs couldn't afford those minutes.  There's nothing wrong with that either.

Jerryd's stats provide a clue as to why he didn't get more opportunity to grow or showcase his stuff when the outcome of the games mattered.  His eye-popping performances in Summer League were defined by scoring, mostly off of penetrating drives peppered by the occasional jump shot.  In the big show, however, his field goal percentage was 36.5% and his three-point percentage fell just short of 26%.  His effective field goal percentage (factors in the value of three-pointers) was 38.4%.  His true field goal percentage (factors in threes and free throws) was 48.7%.  Compare those to Steve Blake's 53.6% and 55.7% and you see why Jerryd didn't threaten the status quo offensively.  Opposing teams found that he couldn't hit the jumper with regularity so they dared him to shoot it, playing off of him against the drive.  He mostly missed.   When he did try to take the lane he was met by a couple defenders, bigger and faster than those he faced in Las Vegas.  Not even his cup-ward wizardry could avail.  He was just stuck and that was the end of the offensive threat.

Jerryd's style also kept the ball in his hands on most possessions where he made a difference.  This was not entirely unacceptable for second-unit play, as scoring is valued among the reserves.  But you had Travis Outlaw in the white unit with the same idea, more seniority, and more demonstrated scoring power.  You had Rudy Fernandez who both needed to be set up and was willing to set up others.  A point guard who can't get the ball out of his hands playing next to those guys had better be scoring like gangbusters.  Jerryd wasn't.  His assist percentage was 18.2% next to Blake's 25.1%.  Jerryd's turnovers per 100 plays also worked out to 19.3 (compared to Blake's 13.6) and his turnovers per minute were almost double Steve's.  Jerryd's assist-to-turnover ratio ended up at 1.36.  That's not a confidence-inspiring number for a point guard.

The place where Bayless had success offensively was the same place he made his bones in Summer League: at the free throw line.  He drew 1.9 attempts per game which is great for a relatively unknown rookie playing 12 minutes.  He hit over 80% of his attempts as well.

Bayless also has great defensive potential.  With his body and movement I'm pretty sure I'd pick him over any of the other current point guards if I had to defend one play and I could be sure he was comfortable with the scheme and his role among the other four players.  However over time his lack of experience and comfort siphoned off much of the results of his individual defensive chops.  The team allowed fewer points per minute, lower effective field goal percentage, fewer assists, and rebounded better on the defensive end when Jerryd was off the court than when he played.  His overall plus-minus ended in the negative.

If you're measuring individual production Jerryd lost the overall battle to opposing point guards in almost every category leading to a gap of -5.9 in PER by position.  The gap was -13.8 when he moved to shooting guard...a position in which his own PER totaled 0.7.

Again, this is not to bag on Jerryd.  This isn't unexpected.  He just wasn't ready to be a point guard on this team this year and sliding him to off-guard to take advantage of his scoring tendencies brought no relief.

As far as the future, it still holds the same promise it did before this season started.  Those gifts and distinctive qualities are still there.  Jerryd clearly needs to work on his shot.  A reliable jumper from any distance will do wonders in opening up his offensive game.  The commitment to defense has to endure and be demonstrated in Summer League and next pre-season.  I'm not sure you can become an NBA point guard over a summer.  You need to run in practice with your specific teammates to make that happen.  You also need game experience eventually.  Jerryd's goal needs to be to do enough things well that he can earn the time to get that experience.

Most of all, Jerryd has to keep the aggressive attitude that got him this far without letting that attitude spill over into unproductive territory.  It would be easy to become frustrated with the situation or possibly with himself, particularly when he's not playing perfectly or not getting the desired results.  Neither option is helpful.  He needs to be mean on the drive, relaxed and in control elsewhere.  Nobody expects this to go perfectly.  Even guys who are born and bred point guards take a couple years to develop in this league.  The important thing is to see progress, including lumps taken, without giving up and without imploding.

As far as the Blazers' commitment to him, it's there for sure, but probably not to the level of a Batum or Fernandez.  Depending on the moves to be made at point guard this summer (if any) they may be willing to part with Bayless to make a deal happen.  He has the advantage of having a decent reputation for his raw ability and not having disproven that reputation repeatedly on the court.  Even to GM's that can be attractive.  But the Blazers would be happy having Jerryd return as well.  There's no real downside from the team's perspective.  Either they're going to have an exciting young prospect or they're going to get more experienced help in return for that prospect.  That's a win-win. 

See more stats at 82Games.com and BasketballReference.com.

--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)

0 recs  |  Comment 227 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

More from Blazersedge

Full Court Press

Nov 2009 by Ben. - 31 comments

Thursday Practice Report

Nov 2009 by Ben. - 51 comments

Jerryd Bayless's "New Jumper"

Oct 2009 by Ben. - 81 comments

(Cap) Space, The Final Frontier

Oct 2009 by Dave - 82 comments

Blazers Training Camp Day 3 Report

Oct 2009 by Ben. - 47 comments

Comments

Display:

Want more aggressiveness? Try less Baylesslessness.

Good writeup Dave. I thought Bayless looked good when Blake was out. I can see him scoring 8.4 points a game in 20 minutes a game next year.

I'm the only thing I'm afraid of.

by prezofdeath on May 8, 2009 12:35 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I hope Bayless can break the regular rotation next year.

He has the drive but definitely needs to address some holes in his game.

I miss Martell. Come back soon!

by mannyfresh1 on May 8, 2009 12:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

sorry Dave, but the only option

is to have Bayless play Center. And more specifically to start at Center.

Then he can unhinge his jaw and eat the opposing Center. Then Oden/Przy can sub in and make minced meat of the backup…

I have my P.h.D in unreliable hyperbole.

by Eat Politicians on May 8, 2009 12:47 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Summer League

will be fun to watch…do you think they will try Bayless at PG or run him SG again.

I have my P.h.D in unreliable hyperbole.

by Eat Politicians on May 8, 2009 12:48 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If it's me

I’m thinking he is THE most important player on that team, provided we don’t make a move into the top 10 this year, and even then… SO…I base the team around what I need to see from him. What I need to see from him is point guard play. I make him the point guard, tell him exactly what I need from him in his own performance and directing the offense and the team, and then I make giving him the opportunity the make-or-break factor in determining how well I organized the Summer League plan.

He might score more if you let him play either guard position and just turn him loose to dominate, but we’ve seen that already. We know he can do it. That’s not going to earn him more minutes at this point. Point guard, some structure, but set up the structure to give him the best chance to showcase and succeed.

—Dave

by Dave on May 8, 2009 12:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

He needs to show he can run the team’s plays and get guys the ball in the correct position. It would also be nice if he could show some outside range.

"The brownies,'' Fernandez said after the game. "The brownies are good for me to make three-points.''

by Sabonis4Ever on May 8, 2009 2:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I sure hope so

If he can’t make a shot, his number will look crappy for the folks who give credence to summer league stats, because he’ll be dishing to scrubs that might not be able to finish.

by tominhawaii on May 8, 2009 7:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If he makes his jumpers

Then his trade value will go up.

"The brownies,'' Fernandez said after the game. "The brownies are good for me to make three-points.''

by Sabonis4Ever on May 8, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then you must have loved Zack Randolph.

Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .

by Nick Van Excellent on May 8, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really lucked out

I moved to Hawaii in Fall, 2006, only saw half a game that season. Before that, I really had no complaints with the Blazers. I followed the 2006 season on Oregonlive so it was sugar coated.

I am a true fan of the team. I’ve never been a bandwagoner, or casual fans who care more about the players on the team instead of the franchise itself. Steve Patterson was a handsome and endearing man who did what had to be done.

by tominhawaii on May 8, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

From what I remember...

Most of the time Bayless was on the floor he was told that for him scoring should be his first priority. There were a couple of games though that Mike and Mike said that he had been told to adjust that and make distributing his first priority and his assist total was like night and day.

I may be wrong, but I think that a lot of people are laboring under the illusion that Bayless had very few assists because he isn’t capable of getting them or wasn’t willing to give up the ball. I don’t think that’s a safe assumption to make.

I think he’s got the skills to do the job, and he definately has the desire. What he lacks is the experience, which I hope he’ll get this next season.

"She turned me into a newt!
A newt?
...I got better."

by Seijeff on May 9, 2009 3:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Illusionist here

I’m definitely laboring under the purported illusion you suggest. I love the fire of the kid, love the work ethic (from what I hear), and we definitely need someone who can get to the basket, as was manifest many times in the season (see Rockets, Houston.) As Dave pointed out, though, his ability to do so is going to be connected to developing a jumper to keep people honest.

But can a point guard actually be made if he’s not born that way? I’m not sure I know of a truly fine one that didn’t come into the league (and really, 6th grade) that way. So, can anyone think of a point guard who evolved into the position at a late age?

Our best chance might well be to play him at off guard while sliding a traditional #2 (Roy, Rudy) into the point on offense, while letting Roy guard the point on defense. Thoughts?

by DiegoSegui on May 9, 2009 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not buying the notion that PGs are "born not bred"

Exceptional passing and court vision may be gifts that are given or nurtured very early. But we are talking about playing basketball not Einsteinian level physics.

This is a skill. Skills can be taught. Players who have 1) the right physical talents, 2) the right attitude, and 3) the right work ethic, can learn to be decent distributors. Bayless has demonstrated all three. He is probably not going to become Magic Johnson, or Steve Nash, but he shows every indication of having a good chance to succeed.

Most of the guys who fail either lack the right attitude or lack the work ethic. Bayless has shown no evidence of selfishness or of being uncoachable.

by upper left corner on May 9, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If it's so easily taught

name one guy who became a point guard who wasn’t one in high school. I’m not saying there aren’t any, but I’m not sure who they are. Any ideas?

by DiegoSegui on May 9, 2009 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um, first off, Bayless was a PG in HS....

….according to Draft Express, he averaged between 6-7 assist per game his last two years.

Obviously, finding who played what position in High School would take a lot of time and research. I do know that among last years rookies both Bayless and Westbrook primarily played the SG in college, although Bayless had been expected to play point. Westbrook averaged over 5 assist/game. Bayless would likely have done the same if he had been given 30 minutes per for the entire season. Bayless averaged over 4 in twenty minutes per game while Blake was out.

by upper left corner on May 9, 2009 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In addendum

KP needs to put players around him that can score the ball in SL. None of these hustle players that scrap, play tough D, and rebound, we need dyed in the wool scorers who know how to get open when a guy drives the lane and know ow to cut.

I don’t care if we get allow 150 ppg as long as we average 151. Let Bayless run the team, and build the entire team around him and put him in a position to gain experience.

There is no other goal for this SL

"Damn the Blazers. Damn them to hell. They are working the rest of the league like a speed bag." - Bill Simmons 6/26/08

by SpyderRyder on May 8, 2009 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

One problem

Guys that can score in summer league are already in the NBA. It’s all draft picks and “whatshisnames.”

by tominhawaii on May 8, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's just the opposite

There are lots of “scorers” out there, just look at Anthony Morrow, who came in out of nowhere and lit it up in his first few games playing for Nellie. What’s harder to find at SL are role players who can fill out the bottom of an NBA roster (that’s why Euros are so popular)

For KP, the scouts and the coaches, they need to put a SL roster together that surrounds Rex with shooters and finishers. Since he’s gonna have to learn how to pass first, you want the players he’s setting up to make those shots and provide instant gratification. You don’t want the team to fall behind and have JB have to put his head down and going 1-on-5, again

by two4larue on May 8, 2009 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't Donte Greene score 20+ in SL last year?

and ended up riding the bench for the Kings. Von Wafer would be another of that type, moving from team to team.

ignacio

by ignacio on May 8, 2009 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He should play PG

There’s no reason to send him to Summer League and have him play SG. I don’t care who else is there, Bayless needs game experience at PG, the more the better. I’m excited to see what he can do with a Summer to work on his jumper and his knowing improving on that and passing off his drives will be how he can get on the court.

by KitIsh on May 8, 2009 12:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bayless is sort of a tweener

He has a SG’s game in a PG’s body. He might become a good PG if he learns to see the whole floor, He’s build like a smaller Jason Kidd, but he dribbles and attacks with his head down.

I don’t know how easy it is to teach the flow of the whole game. A lot of it comes naturally. Brandon has it, Rudy has it, and maybe Nic.

I think Jerryd is a work very much in progress and it might take another couple years to see where he’s going.

by jayfisher on May 8, 2009 12:57 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Kidd

You’re right on the body part and right on the “puts his head down” part, but Kidd was the greatest point guard (other than Magic, arguably Stockton) that I ever saw who couldn’t really shoot. He was a brilliant passer, knew precisely when to accelerate and hit the breaks, and played astonishing disruptive defense. I saw him at Cal when he was a Freshman and he threw the best pass I’ve ever seen to this day, on a ball he somehow outraced as it was going out of bounds into the corner on a overthrown outlet, only to whip it behind his back, no look, to Lamont Murray for the Monster Slam (against Texas Southern or Southern, for anyone who also saw it.) Bayless actually jumps a lot better than Kidd. But the passing discrepancy makes them entirely different players.

by DiegoSegui on May 9, 2009 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jerryd Bayless... the prospect

He is Bayle-rific at getting to the basket. His defense is Bayle-tastic. His ball handling = Baylicious. He’s already getting me excited about next season.

When I think about these 4 Blazer rookies… I like Batum’s smooth, Rudy’s big shots, Oden’s dominant power… but when I saw Bayless’ fire during Blake’s absence, I screamed at the TV in joy, I’d talk up Bayless to the person next to me… I’d giggle because he has the gifts the Blazers need.

They need the in your face perimeter defense, that guy who can dribble down the lane and then, instead of a lay up, BOOM SHAKA LAKA… he slams it with force.

This summer league, I’m looking for Bayless to do two things:
1) develop some confidence in his mid-range shot (it’s controlled and beautiful once he gets it going).
2) show that he doesn’t just have eyes for the rim (I know he can pass it, but he just acts like he has so much to prove on the court… he rushes)

If Sergio gets his wish, to play for another team, then Bayless will get the minutes to show he can run this offense successfully in 09-10.

I just hope he gets the minutes in a Blazer uniform to do it.

by neilan on May 8, 2009 2:38 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't see the Blazers

trading both back-up point guards. But then I’m not a mind reader.

—Dave

by Dave on May 8, 2009 2:40 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In a few years, Bayless will be a Tony Parker + Monta Ellis mix (with some Derrick Rose sprinkled in) if developed correctly

Both not good outside shooters, but terrifying when driving through the lane and increasingly good at setting up their teammates after also pretty rough starts in the league (FG% of 41, same TS% as Jerryd thanks to his great FT%, check the per 36 stats) http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=4XS74

Or to use an example from his draft class, I think he is a mini Derrick Rose (who is much better at leading a team right out of the gate) and has the same talent level as Russell Westbrook, another non-pure point guard. If he had played on OKC and Westbrook was on the Blazers, I bet the results would have been almost the other way around.

by Norsktroll on May 8, 2009 2:45 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Decent Comparisons

When Parker was coming up his main knock was that he couldn’t hit that J. You don’t hear too many people saying that about him now do ya’.

As Dave pointed out, Bayless has that rare gift of being able to blow by his guy at will. Once he learns to augment that with the pull-up jumper and a drive and dish mentality, he will become an offensive force. You can’t teach that quickness or body control and with BRoy next to him, I would argue that he doesn’t need to become a pure PG to be effective. He does need to be able to hit that jumper consistently and eventually take it out to the 3pt line, but that will come. His D is already more effective than either of the other PGs and once he learns to play within our defensive schemes, he will a stud on that end of the floor too.

As someone who watched nearly every game this year, I am surprised that his stats are so bad. I think a lot of that is simply wanting to prove too much when coach puts him in, which led to him playing with his head down and attacking. I think that desire to succeed will eventually be one of his greatest assets, he just needs to let the game come to him. He is 20 years old and from what I hear, he has the drive to get better and a good attitude (both of which often differentiate the good ones from the great ones). I see JB as the future PG of the Blazers, and would be pissed if we let him go.

by OregonVike on May 8, 2009 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice assessment

Regarding Bayless’ stats, a lot of it is the result of the inconsistent minutes he played. His stats improved rapidly and dramatically during Blake’s injury. For more detail see my lengthy post below “Point-Guard-Polooza”

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rondo?

"The brownies,'' Fernandez said after the game. "The brownies are good for me to make three-points.''

by Sabonis4Ever on May 8, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see it

Rondo is a distributing point guard. Bayless is a scoring point guard.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe it just me

but i see his shot getting a lot better, he want’s to get his shot better and i think he will with his work ethic. He won’t ever be an assassin from deep but can hit a few shots. The last game i went to was against okc in the last week of the season. I watched bayless warmup and the whole time he shot 3’s and i would say he made something like 15-17, he was flat out draining them. Now warm up and game is different but eventually the whole muscle memory thing will kick in and he will be automatic.

"Howard, he know me" Rudy

by phillyduck23 on May 8, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

also remember

roy wasn’t a great 3 point shooter when he came out of college and now he is a solid to great shooter, and bayless is 3 years younger then roy was then.

"Howard, he know me" Rudy

by phillyduck23 on May 8, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Roy was also more experienced

He played 4 years in College and developed his game further than B-rex could have in only one. Rex needs more experience before he can even achieve Roy’s rookie stats.

Advantage: Roy

Blazers win!

by The X-man on May 8, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's not what i was saying

it wasn’t a roy bayless competition(cause that would not be a competition) i was saying that people can improve their jumpers quickly just like roy did

"Howard, he know me" Rudy

by phillyduck23 on May 8, 2009 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes, understood first time around

hope you’re right about the shooting trajectory, so to speak.

by DiegoSegui on May 9, 2009 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bedge is going to be boring until summer league. I mean how can you break down a player that scored all

his points against second and third units? We really don’t know what Bayless is capable of at all because Nate let Sergio play too much.

by BRoyInThe4th on May 8, 2009 2:46 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Nate tried to bench Sergio

Bayless failed miserably when he took his place. You can’t really blame anyone but Bayless for that.

by Zaig on May 8, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seemed to me Bayless and Sergio both made rookie mistakes when they were out there. Only difference is

Sergio isn’t a rookie. So Nate let chose the lesser of the two scrubs, when it might have helped Bayless development to give Bayless run.

by BRoyInThe4th on May 9, 2009 4:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Man, I fell for Bayless last year

I thought he would be the starting point guard in December. Every game I went too… he was my pet player that I really really wanted to see.

If he and Roy could just take turns going to the hole with LMA or Oden trailing for dish back dunks with Martell or Rudy waiting to hit the kick out 3 I would be a happy blazer fan.

by tweener on May 8, 2009 3:06 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Good Morning everyone

that should be there game plan next year ha.

"Awesome! Totally awesome! All right, Hamilton!"

by B-ROYalty on May 8, 2009 6:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really started to hate Bayless at points over the season for the same reason I hated Sergio the year before

I really want to like him so I hope he gets the work in to EARN his playing time next year.

by tominhawaii on May 8, 2009 7:09 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think "getting work in" is a pretty safe bet with Bayless

This post wasn’t one of your famous fishing expeditions was it? I confess that while I frequently find your posts very funny, I occasionally find that your sense of humour is some what askew of my perception of reality. It keeps this place highly entertaining.

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah, I've said it before

I think it was a thread a few months ago and my complaint was that the way Bayless fans treat Sergio and Blake makes me hate Bayless, and I don’t want to hate anyone on the Blazers. The year before was Jack hate by the Sergio fans. I’m always going to root for the underdog or the guy who’s getting unfairly piled onto.

I want Bayless to be successful but not at the expense of the Blazers. I’m a fan of his because he’s a Blazer but I want the guys in the game who gives the team the best chance of winning.

by tominhawaii on May 8, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

Rec

thank you, TiH, it needed to be said. I simply don’t like the insinuation with Bayless fans that he’s Lance Armstrong in the offseason and everyone else is sitting on their couch popping downing candy bars until August.

by Royster on May 8, 2009 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know I got into a number of heated exchanges with the Sergiophillic faithful....

….but I tried to be responsible and respectful in my assessments of both players. Sergio has game, and I have repeatedly said that I think there is a good chance that he will ultimately be better than Blake.

I just don’t like his defense, and I don’t think his game is a good match for Roy, so I don’t think he is a good candidate to become our starter. If he does leave the team, I will be rooting for him to succeed.

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't mind folks having a favorite player

I just hate it when people tear down the other players to build up their favorite. I think Blake is a 10 year back up in this league. It’s up to the other guys to take the starting job from him.

by tominhawaii on May 8, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you truly like defense, then you'd be fans of neither Jerryd Bayless nor Sergio Rodriguez.

Instead, you’d jump on the “Captain” Kirk Hinrich bandwagon that’s growing bigger by the day.

by AK1984 on May 8, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've been sitting shotgun for months

it’s quite full at this point.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your relentless campaign has really made an impact on a lot of folks around here, me included.

You and I have totally different takes on Bayless, but I like what I have seen of Hinrich.

I listed him as my first option if the Blazers are less than fully confident that Bayless can develop into a starter.

My main take away is that to get to the elite level and compete for a championship, the team needs better perimeter defense and that starts at the PG position. I also think we need someone who is better in the open court. How does Hinrich do pushing tempo?

by upper left corner on May 9, 2009 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chicago played at a faster pace than Portland

Hinrich isn’t the greatest, but he’s a definite upgrade over Blake in that area.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 9, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My feelings exactly

I found myself slowly nitpicking everything Bayless did wrong as I felt that is what was happening with Sergio. And it wasn’t hard as both players have quite a few flaws. But I want the Blazers to succeed and the players individually to succeed as well.

"I saw him in the face" Sergio's quote on the latest alley-oop to Rudy.

by blazermaniac32 on May 8, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Same here

After a game there would be someone pointing out every mistake Sergio or Blake made and not one mention of the mistakes Bayless made.

What’s funny, is I’m the same way with Outlaw only different. I love it when it takes a stupid shot and misses because I know it makes his haters mad.

by tominhawaii on May 8, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Worse than that for me

was people nitpicking through every turnover and miss and saying that it shouldn’t count because it was actually Frye’s fault for not cutting, or that he was actually fouled on the play and nothing was called so we should ignore the result, or that someone threw him a bad pass and it was all he could do to save it in the first place while at the same time pointing to the box score and saying how the stats show that Sergio and Blake were terrible.

by Royster on May 8, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Especially when you see two or three bad shots by Travis

Then the place is flooded with comments. But the next game when he scores 19 off the bench, makes a few of those same type of shots, the place is silent or filled with, “yes but wait until next game”.

"I saw him in the face" Sergio's quote on the latest alley-oop to Rudy.

by blazermaniac32 on May 8, 2009 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just cant share the enthusiasm

Bayless gets points with me because he wears a Trail Blazer jersey, but thats about it.
I chuckled at neilan’s " his mid-range shot it’s controlled and beautiful once he gets it going." When did it get going? I don’t see the beauty in his brick-laying, especially when teams backed off him 10 feet and dared him to take the shot — CLUNK. I think its a bad fit asking JB to run the point. That’s not his game and he doesn’t have the innate skills of an effective PG. Bayless has a Gimme-daball attack the hoop mentality as evidenced by the number of times he had the leather rock swatted down his tonsils this year.

What Bayless does bring is a player who attacks the basket with fearless abandon (sometimes good, sometimes a bad thing), plays inspired defense with a willingness to get physical and move his feet, and a burning passion to play the game. I don’t know what was harder to watch, Bayless in the game, or sitting on the bench chewing towels.

I don’t get pleasure in saying this, but maybe its best for Bayless and the team to find him another home, where he can carve out a niche, because Nate aint gonna let him do it here.

I AM A PORTLAND TRAIL BLAZERS SUPPORTER.

by bow4meow on May 8, 2009 7:26 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

his shot was very nice in college

they tinkered with the mechanics and it threw everything off. Hopefully he can get it back.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 7:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you traded every guy who struggled with his shot in the first year out of college, you would have traded half the Hall of Fame

Patience. By the end of next season, we will know whether or not Bayless can bring the shot that he is rumored to shoot in practice to the floor of the RG. The coaches were retooling Bayless’ form last year, and I think that had a significant impact on his stats. He is also a kid whose spring is wound very tight. More playing time will result in more relaxation and better results.

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

what?
If you traded every guy who struggled with his shot in the first year out of college, you would have traded half the Hall of Fame

So you think Bayless if HoF material?

I AM A PORTLAND TRAIL BLAZERS SUPPORTER.

by bow4meow on May 8, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

that isn't what ULC was saying

If B, then A does not imply if A, then B…

Plenty of guys struggled with their shot….Dirk, Manu, Pippen.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not what I said

My point is that many, particularly the guys straight out of high school or with only a season or two in college, struggle with their shooting when they first get to the league. Shooting is about relaxed concentration and muscle memory. When guys are trying to do a lot of new things, they start thinking too much. Thinking messes with muscle memory.
  
For example, Pippen shot 17% from distance as a rookie, and less than 35% overall.

Bayless also seems like a guy whose spring is wound very tight. His intensity and desire for success, which will eventually be an asset, is in the short term a problem. He tries to hard.

My point is that I don’t think you can draw too many conclusions at this point. Bayless shot well in college, reportedly he shoots well in practice. He just needs enough time on the floor so that he can relax. If his numbers haven’t improved by the end of next season, I will share your concern.

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fun fact

After rewatching the Portland-New Jersey game, in which Bayless stopped Harris a few times down the stretch and scored 23 points, Harris had to foul Bayless with about 20 seconds remaining. After he fouled, he patted him on the butt, as if to say, “Good job, kid.”

I honestly think Bayless has the potential and drive to be a terrific perimeter defender and complement to Roy on offense. We complain about too many jump shots… Bayless has no such problems. We complain about the team being too nice… Bayless has never been accused of being timid.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 7:33 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

his shooting is worrisome

but looking at his mechanics, I think they changed his shot, and he hasn’t used the new form enough for it to have become “second nature.” Pre-Game 2, Bayless was hitting everything in warmups… threes, pullups… I think he can shoot when he is able to think about technique. He has issues putting it together right now.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 7:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think now he has a shot put motion. He flings the ball, a la Peja Stojakovic

Since most of his highlight videos from school and college are full of dunks it’s not so easy to find comparisons, but here are a few included: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vIgX5vo8oc and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtIER8Ba6tA

The motion is similar but It looks much smoother. Peja developed his motion as a kid when he was too weak to get the ball in the hoop/over his older sister at the time. Could it be that Bayless got too strong for his shot in his upper body? And somehow he lost his touch? Another comparison that comes to mind is Howard shooting free throws which starts nice but then goes way to fast and strong. However Bayless has no problems shooting FTs. It’s weird and I’m confused what went wrong with his shot.

by Norsktroll on May 8, 2009 7:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still think it's a matter of him thinking through his shot

in pregame, you could see almost see him processing through each step of how to shoot… and he was making those.

I dunno. It’s such a weird thing… for a shot to just disappear.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

howard shooting FTs

hurts like a paper cut.

Must... ...not... ...like... ...the... ...Nuggets....

by appel82 on May 8, 2009 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fiddling with mechanics and trying too hard

I’m willing to bet that more time on the court will lead to relaxation and better results.

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Folks have to remember also

that shooting in the NBA is a different game. You don’t have the time or space to get the shot off that you did in college or anywhere else really. It’s a mental game for rookies trying to keep the shooting motion pure and not giving credence to those voices in the back of your head saying, “Quick! Quick! They’re coming to shut you down!!!”

—Dave

by Dave on May 8, 2009 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But now Bayless has the same broken motion no matter if he is wide open or not

“Shot put”, pushing the ball from too low, not getting his elbow high enough, not a smooth motion.

If that is the result of trying to speed him up, they did him a disservice.

by Norsktroll on May 8, 2009 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The mental thing

would not be a “they” thing but a “him” thing.

If his shot looks ugly it’s a pretty good bet that they didn’t coach him to do that. NBA guys tend to like pure, straight, and high.

—Dave

by Dave on May 8, 2009 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Look at Blake's shot

Yet he is over 40% from 3.

"The brownies,'' Fernandez said after the game. "The brownies are good for me to make three-points.''

by Sabonis4Ever on May 8, 2009 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who is "they"

in “they” tinkered with his mechanics? I’m not sure where this comes from. I wonder if Bayless showed some complacence in his own game, sorta taking for granted what came easy in the college game would carry over to the NBA version. He also played in a system in college that played into his strengths, unlike the PTB version.

Bayless is going to have another frustrating year in Portland next season if he thinks he is even close to supplanting Sergio for Blakes back-up minutes. Not sure he can deal with the frustration. Hmmmm…. is this another budding Jarrett Jack situation?

I AM A PORTLAND TRAIL BLAZERS SUPPORTER.

by bow4meow on May 8, 2009 8:00 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

by "they"

I mean the Trailblazer coaching staff, who remarked that Bayless’ shot had too slow of a release. John Townsend tinkers with everyone’s mechanics….

Why isn’t Bayless close to being a good backup? When Blake was out, he averaged pretty good numbers. It’s hard to look good in spot minutes.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 8:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well Sergio seems to be offering Bayless some help....

Sergio does not want to stick around for back-up point guard minutes.

by PoliSam on May 8, 2009 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe "they" is the coaching staff

I believe the concern was that Bayless’ release was relatively low and to the side, and that it took too long for him to get it out of his hand.

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe good shooters don't think about technique at all.

They’ve practiced so much that form comes automatically. It’s when you have to take a second to think about your shot that you have a problem.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on May 8, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I love that he's changing his shooting form

While I cannot claim to have noticed much change in his form (I didn’t really watch Bayless at all in college), I think that this was the right move coming into the league. The best athletes in the world, doesn’t matter what sport you are talking about, are always trying to improve their technique. Tiger Woods is the most obvious example of this, tinkering with his swing several times throughout his career. Hitters constantly do it in baseball and it’s a major component to swimming. As a former swimmer, I’ve seen world record holders repeatedly change their technique every year, tinkering it to gain every bit of advantage that they can.

As for Bayless’ shooting form, it takes anywhere from 1-2 years to become completely comfortable with a new technique, comfortable enough to the point that it becomes second nature to the player. At the end of that time, Bayless will be much better off for it. The fact that he’s thinking through it every time he takes a shot in practice shows his commitment to the new form and will pay off for him this next season. The kid shot 80+% from the free throw line in limited minutes and attempts. This tells me that when he has the time to get his new form right, it’s effective and will only get better.

What are you impressions of Roy?
"He's just a very, very good basketball player. Very smart. Very heady. He can do a little bit of everything on the court. As coaches, when we scout Portland we kind of put him in the same category as Kobe (Bryant), LeBron (James), Dwyane Wade. We treat him the same. He's that good."

- Byron Scott

by CMCWizard on May 8, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

GREAT points

about Bayless not settling for jumpers and not being timid. On top of that he has the potential to be a very good on ball defender. Those are three huge assets, especially to the Blazers who are in dire need of all of them…

by ClydeTheGlyde on May 8, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Developmental dilemma

The dilemma: Bayless needs a lot of minutes on the floor to develop and become comfortable with the game, but I am not sure the Blazers can afford to give him those minutes. If Bayless had played for the Clippers (instead of Gordon) I am sure he would have put up impressive numbers for a rookie. I hope that summer league and the off-season provide him enough time to refine his game that he can earn additional minutes. I am afraid, however, that even 20 minutes a night might not be enough. There are many players in the league that haven’t start playing well until given free reign and lots of time. Mike Conely at Memphis last year is a good example.

As much as I like Bayless and his game, I do wonder if he wouldn’t be more valuable on a team in rebuilding mode than on the Blazers. If that’s the case, then a trade might serve everyone’s interests.

by PoliSam on May 8, 2009 8:07 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

it's sad, but I think there's a good chance you may be right

Bayless would have been a great guy to have two to three years ago. Now, it’s a little dicier. As Dave has said multiple times, the time for “developing” guys is largely over. Hopefully Bayless can find a niche here, but as opposed to a guy like Przy, I think his value is a lot greater elsewhere than it is here.

by Royster on May 8, 2009 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ya, I say that being a big Bayless fan

Realistically, I think Bayless needs right around 20 minutes a game to have enough time to develop. If the coaches are pretty sure he’s gonna play a lot less than that, he would seem to be a wasted resource.

by PoliSam on May 8, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not every player has the opportunity for extending playing time to develop.

Most have to earn time the old-fashioned way – by working hard and improving their game. Personally, I believe a lot of it is mental. Not the smarts or BBIQ sort that people like to bandy about. I am referring to mental discipline. Forcing yourself through the grind until you become the player you and the coaches want to be.

As for Bayless, there is no rush. If he has the mental discipline – and I see nothing to indicate he doesn’t – then in time he can become the PG Blazer fans would love to see. The important thing to remember is to forego the sense of instant gratification. That applies to just about everyone on this team. Too many fans seem to think this game is easy and expect players to master it almost immediately. That just isn’t the case.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on May 8, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sage comment

It makes me crazy when fans (or sportscasters) act like you can tell what kind of a player a guy will be at 28 when watching his game for a few minutes at age 20. If you passed on every guy who had shooting problems in their first year in the league, you would have passed on about half the guys who ended up in the hall of fame. Pippen shot 17% from distance during his first season. I could list a hundred more examples.

By the end of year two, you can usually see the shape of a guy’s game and project the arc of their development. But there are plenty of late bloomers. As a general rule, if a guy has really good physical tools, a really good work ethic, and a good competitive attitude, they are going to be good players. Bayless has all the ingredients. He isn’t a sure bet, but there is every reason to expect him to be good.

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If we had a great veteran who was young enough to be a good long term solution, I might agree.....

…..but we don’t. Veteran PGs who have fairly complete games, and are young enough to fit our window, are almost as rare as good centers, and just as expensive.

The veterans who are most likely to be available are older guys who might buy us a couple of seasons for Bayless to develop. Bayless has amazing physical abilities, and an astounding work ethic. He may not work out as a starter, but he is worth the risk of giving him 15 minutes a night for a season to see how he develops. He showed rapid and dramatic improvement during Blake’s injury.

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Next Season

IF Travis and Sergio are gone as some expect then the second unit is going to need someone to pickup TO’s point production. Maybe he can go to the rim for that rather than need a lot of assist improvement next year.

by selyab on May 8, 2009 8:09 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Rudy/Bayless

will pick up the point production (or lack there off… of outlaw)

Also.. They might be putting webster in the 2nd unit with Batum as starter.

Also.. They might be putting webster in the 2nd unit with Batum as starter.On batum’s Blog, nate said he was the starter.. and that martell/outlaw have to take it from him.

"Awesome! Totally awesome! All right, Hamilton!"

by B-ROYalty on May 8, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rondo dosen't have a jumpshot

But is a “top 5” PG in the league because he can get to the hole and score, along with make plays for others, and he’s long and strong enough to defend PGs really well. Although Bayless has not shown the distribution skills of Rondo, Rondo is not that complicated, he basically does the same ball fake on every play, and it always works. And as Kenny Smith (i know, i know) points out about rondo, the fact that he dosen’t have a reliable jump shot often works to his advantage in that defenders don’t obstruct his vision or put a hand in his face as much, which allows him to make plays and see the floor better than if they were up in his face. The prob. with bayless is he needs a lot of burn before he is that comfortable that he can make plays, and there is no guarantee that he’ll ever be as crafty as even sergio at using his penetration skills to set others up.

Must... ...not... ...like... ...the... ...Nuggets....

by appel82 on May 8, 2009 8:40 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I was just about to post my comparrison

I know bayless has struggled with his shot. I know he can break down the defense and either take it to the rim or find someone (when he played he did this at a decent rate). I know he can rebound thanks to his unbelievable athleticism. I know he wants to tear the heads off opponents.

Now this is where I compare what I know about bayless and that other player.

I know rondo lays bricks from outside (worse than bayless at ft). I know he can take it to the rim with reckless abandon. I know he can rebound (three triple doubles in the playoffs). I know he tears heads of opponnents (brad miller anyone?).

Sound familiar?

The only difference is that rondo played pg is college (some may think that is the point…that bayless didn’t) , but was not that impressive if you ask me.

The thing is that they are both athletic freaks that play all out on offense and defense. They both play under former point guards that loved the game. Doc has mentored that kid into something special. Nate needs to do the same.

by NDREXLERDRIVE on May 8, 2009 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In an 8 game stretch were he played decent minutes

he averaged 4.125 assists per game in 24 minutes a game. Jan. 26th – Feb. 11th

Now if I did my research right (which isn’t rocket science), Blake, our beloved point, averaged an even 5 assists per game in 31.7 minutes a game.

That means that if Jerryd played 7 more minutes he would only need .9 of an assist to get to where blake is at. I am sure he can do that. He plays better defense than blake.

I say give the man some run and his numbers will be more consistent. I know I pulled his numbers from an eight game stretch, but if he played the whole year at 24 minutes a game I am almost positive he could get to 4 assists per game.

Answer is to let the man play.

by NDREXLERDRIVE on May 8, 2009 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

the second unit generally equals more assists for the PG than the first

because brandon always gets some of the PGs assists in the first unit, and batum and pryz aren’t exacty scoring wizards. Plus the second unit is littered with guys that are best as spot up shooters (rudy, travis, frye) Unfair to compare these numbers i feel due to 1st and 2nd unit differences, small sample size and most of the teams played in that stretch. The question is what did bayless do for the team during that stretch? The answer is provided energy off the bench with drasically varying results. I really don’t know if he is the PG of the future or not, a big ? in my book. I love watching him and travis, they are the most fascinating specimens on the team besides roy, but they are painful to have as the proverbial ‘your guys’ at times because of their severe, raw, chaotic, unfathomable styles.

Must... ...not... ...like... ...the... ...Nuggets....

by appel82 on May 8, 2009 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I made the same argument in my novela below

The evidence, granted it is a very small sample size, suggests that Bayless will play well and show improvement, if he is given regular minutes. Give him 15-20 minutes for the first half of the season, let’s see if he shows enough for us to be confident that he is going to develop into a long range solution. At worst, he will cost us a game or two. Next year we should have a greater margin for error.

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rondo (and Westbrook) are superior rebounders to Bayless. And of course Rondo is the much better passer at the moment.

I think their game could become comparable in the future, and as said above Bayless once had a shot that was at least as good as what those guys have now. Parker, Rondo, Ellis, Westbrook, Arenas; guys like that are what Bayless can become. And I too would have if we had traded that away too soon.

by Norsktroll on May 8, 2009 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

agree... a little

He just needs run and I can pretty much guarantee that he could get 5+boards a game. Russel averaged 15p, 5a, 5re a game in 32 minutes play. Bayless can do that with no problem. I agree with what he can become. When he gets to that class of player we will be that much better. Or like some want we trade him and we lose on a great role player.

by NDREXLERDRIVE on May 8, 2009 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There are plenty of good (and bad) comparisons

for Bayless, as you highlighted above and here, but Rondo really isn’t one of them. The only comparison is that they neither has a jump shot (although Rondo somehow shot better from three this year). Rondo’s assist % has always been superior and has only been getting better, and he’s the best PG defender in the league, as Hollinger has often said (although this isn’t really saying much). His ridiculous length and humongous hands also give him gigantic advantages on the defensive end that Jerryd will never really have.

Bayless does get to the line more, though, for what that’s worth.

by Royster on May 8, 2009 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Billups and Bayless

-Simiar size. Both are listed at 6-3 200 lbs.

-Both started in the league with poor FG%

-Similarly good a drawing fouls and hitting free throws.

-Neither started with a stellar assist to turnover ratio.

-Almost identical rebounding numbers

If you through out Bayless’s worthless minutes in garbage time (which there were a lot with all of the Blazers blowouts), I think the numbers would be even more similar.

by PoliSam on May 8, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The blowouts typically help your numbers...

Nobody is playing defense anymore so you get free layups.

by Zaig on May 8, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

but the minutes

are still ultimately meaningless. It makes much more sense, logically, to analyze the meaningful minutes.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

and I'm not sure about it helping your numbers

refs are very reluctant to call fouls… you’re playing with a bunch of scrubs… the minutes ultimately mean nothing…

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Billups is a good one

the guys highlighted by Norsk above are also decent. Lou Williams at age 20 (he played like 30 minutes his rookie year) is less flattering Stuckey’s rookie year is another decent comparison, although depending on how you feel about Stuckey, that could be good or bad.

One of the best, and least flattering comparisons, though, might be Javaris Crittenton’s rookie year

For what it’s worth, here’s a list of young guards who had low PER rookie/soph years but got to the line a ton. Some solid names on there, but not exactly a murderer’s row. The search criteria are a little restrictive, so if you eased up on the FG% or PER requirements I’d imagine you’d add a lot more big names to it.

by Royster on May 8, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe Bayless has more speed than Billups has ever had

In general it is a good comparison, and a good target for Bayless.

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

what about stuckey?

similar to bayless, hasn’t been as big of deal this year as will bynum, but similar to bayless in that he seems to be somewhat of a tony allen, force the issue type of guy, but at 6’5", stuckey has slightly more of a build to allow him to justify his combo guardness.

Must... ...not... ...like... ...the... ...Nuggets....

by appel82 on May 8, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still think he is a Keeper ...

what capacity remains to be seen. Great write-up as usual Dave. I hope to make the summer show in Vegas to see him up close.

   RoadBlazer

by Roadblazer on May 8, 2009 8:41 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Blake out split stats

I think the evidence that Bayless plays better in more minutes is pretty hard to dispute. His full season numbers included lots of garbage time. Bayless stats when Blake was injured:

MP 22.32
FG 2.93
FGA 6.07
FG% 48.20%
3P 0.36
3PA 0.93
3P% 38.8%
FT 3.36
FTA 3.93
FT% 85.50%
ORB 0.29
DRB 1.57
TRB 1.86
AST 2.79
STL 0.50
BLK 0.07
TOV 1.50
PTS 9.57

His true shooting percentage during this period was about 60%, thanks to the high number of free throws.

His numbers during this stretch per 36 minutes:

FG 4.72
FGA 9.79
FG% 48.20%
3P 0.58
3PA 1.50
3P% 38.50%
FT 5.41
FTA 6.34
FT% 85.50%
ORB 0.46
DRB 2.53
TRB 3.00
AST 4.49
STL 0.81
BLK 0.12
TOV 2.42
PTS 15.44

by PoliSam on May 8, 2009 8:50 AM PDT reply actions   2 recs

I would take that over blake anyday

I posted something similar up above, but not as detailed.

I know he can’t shoot like blake, but blake wasn’t a 40 percent shooter from 3 until these past two years. He can dish it to the plethora of three point shooters we have (webster, rudy, b-roy, batum…). I would take a tony parker type over a blake type any day. He can defend better, break down the defense better, attack the rim better.

Let him play and we will now what we have

by NDREXLERDRIVE on May 8, 2009 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

Even as a rookie, he put up some very respectable per minute numbers when he got enough minutes to relax a little bit.

The kid’s spring is wound very tight, he needs to play.

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is what I've been looking to see

Whenever anybody talks about how Bayless’s rookie year was an unmitigated disaster.

Those are VERY VERY encouraging numbers. 60% TS%, 15 points per 36 minutes, 4.5 assists per 36, 38% from three, and 48% FG% are all very promising numbers.

I don’t think you can really assess a guy by looking at his garbage time stats. It’s not true competition. Bayless is not trying as hard to score and hit shots and generate poitns in a 25 point game. He’s just not. Neither would Brandon Roy. Neither would anybody.

Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.

by KP Corleone on May 8, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wish I could rec this again

Bayless was actually very good for a rookie PG when he actually played. We can all see from the Channing Frye mess that a player can’t be judged on garbage time.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

This really does warrant its own fanpost. These are great numbers. I do not understand how people can argue Bayless had an “atrocious” or “terrible” year when these were his stats as a rotation player. It’s not like this was a five game sample size – 10-12 games is enough to meaningfully assess the kid, and it’s much, much more compelling than his PER in the last two minutes of a blowout.

Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.

by KP Corleone on May 8, 2009 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is the minor fact that nobody in the NBA had him scouted

He got to drive at will in these games. Once teams realized that was his one and only move, they quit covering him outside and started blocking his drives.

by Zaig on May 8, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yet

his numbers didn’t seem to decrease toward the end of the 10-12 games, or whatever it was. They decreased when he came off the bench for token minutes.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

First off, there's more than a week turnaround in scouting reports

and two of his best three games in the stint were the first two games (@NJ and @CHA). He also shot 60% in his first four games after Blake went down and shot 33% in the last 4 games of Blake’s absence. Then, he was completely ineffective when he was given the backup role near the end of the season, leading to him getting benched again.

If that’s not pretty clear evidence that teams figured out how to play him pretty quickly, I don’t know what is.

by Royster on May 8, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

but his assist to turnover was terrific throughout the period

highlighted by his 8-1 showing against OKC. He was developing a drive and dish game and genuinely showed progress.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And that was preceded by

an 2:2 showing against OKC, a 1:3 showing against NY, and followed by an 0:2 showing against GS. It’s telling that not only did he shoot much worse against these teams, but they were some of the worst defensive teams in the league.

Also, FTA’s for the first four games of the stretch: 26.
For the last four: 10.

I think it’s safe to say that teams figured him out by the end of those three weeks.

by Royster on May 8, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

which was preceded by excellent games in Dallas and New Orleans

he was inconsistent. Good, good, bad, bad, bad, good. It’s more telling to me that he shot well and was efficient against the best defenses than he was inefficient against the worst defenses.

Taking into account his inconsistencies and bad games out of those twelve, he still had a 15 PER and was as good as Derrick Rose was.

If teams had figured him out, why did he do so much better in his second game against OKC? Wouldn’t they have figured him out even more than any other team?

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because it was at home at OKC was a terrible road team

If I had to guess, I’d say that NO game was the impetus for teams to start scouting him, with the Dallas game sneaking by since it was two days later and Dallas was traveling the day before that.

The fact that his only decent game after Dallas was against the third worst road team in the league and even them they kept him from doing what he’d been doing at will earlier (scoring and getting to the line).

Plus, in his only other stint of meaningful minutes (his 4 game backup PG “audition”), he got to the line twice and had as many turnovers as points and rebounds combined.

by Royster on May 8, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bah, can't type

“AND OKC was a terrible road team”, not “at OKC was a terrible road team”

by Royster on May 8, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Three games is not a large enough sample size to draw conclusions like that

Bayless, a 20-year old rookie, had three bad games and that’s conclusive evidence that it was the result of scouting rather than just inconsistent play?

Either way, the supposed scouting goes out the window once Jerryd develops a jumpshot. And he shot 48% and 38% from three during the stretch when he was in the rotation.

There is no validity to the argument that Bayless’s whole season can be labeled a flop based on the fact that he didn’t play well during the 1-2 games he supplanted Sergio. That was like fifteen minutes, total.

Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.

by KP Corleone on May 8, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

When someone says he was playing as well

at the end of those 14 games, but the stats clearly show differently, I’m going to point it out. And given the fact that he never had more than a barely mediocre game after that stint, Occam’s razor says that teams figured out how to play him, not that he suddenly became much worse or that the rest of the league got a whole lot better at just playing him the way they were playing him before.

Even before Blake went down, Jerryd had put up a couple okay performances (Detroit, Sacto, @Sacto, @Chicago, @Boston). Not exactly barn burners, but okay. After the All star break (coincided with Blake coming back), he shot 10% worse and drew FT’s nearly half as often as he did before.

Sure, it’s possible that he went into a 3 month long slump immediately following his “confident” stint as a backup, but it’s far more likely that teams started to play him differently and he couldn’t adjust.

by Royster on May 8, 2009 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And given the fact that he never had more than a barely mediocre game after that stint.

The point is that, when given playing time, he performed very well. He did not perform in spot minutes. He couldn’t adjust to less playing time.

Nearly every one of his good games came with either Steve or Brandon injured, giving him more playing time.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I get that, but unless there was scouting involved,

why would he suddenly start playing even worse than he had been in December in spot minutes?

I think the stats show that he played worse at the end of his stint sans Blake, and then that he played even worse in spot minutes after that than he did in spot minutes earlier in the season.

by Royster on May 8, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

he was pretty bad playing spot minutes in December

glancing at his game log, he never really had a good game with under 15 minutes.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He wasn't good by any means in December

but playing the same number of minutes per game as in March, he drew nearly twice as many FTAs/min, socred double the points, and had double the assists/game. I’d say that’s a relatively significant difference.

by Royster on May 8, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

we had a lot more blowouts in March, it seemed like

and sample sizes of 5 minutes, 8 minutes, 7 minutes, etc… I’m not willing to say that he played significantly worse in late-season spot minutes based on such small sample sizes.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Spot minutes

Regardless of whether his stats decreased in spot minutes, the point is, they’re spot minutes.

I don’t buy at all that teams were “scouting” for Bayless’s performance in scout minutes.

Either way, doesn’t matter. The spot minutes stats aren’t indicative of anything. Is Bayless trying to draw fouls in the last two minutes of a blowout?

No. He’s taking bad jumpers, and forcing halfhearted drives. Just like everybody else. It’s no surprise that his stats aren’t good, and any patterns in them are arbitrary and meaningless.

You have a point that Bayless had a string of less than stellar games even when he was getting playing time. But I’m not buying anything about his play in mop up time.

Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.

by KP Corleone on May 8, 2009 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No one was scouting "for" him

but teams have scouting reports on EVERYONE. I’d bet there are 30 scouting reports out there on Shavlik and Mike Ruffin if we wanted to dig into them. They’re probably very short and limited, but they’re still there.

I really don’t see why this is controversial at all. He was able to get to the line at will and was shooting a great % when he first replaced Blake, and then the last week, he could barely get to the line and shot terribly. This is a no brainer to me, just like Sergio having a sophomore slump once teams figured out he couldn’t shoot from outside and was going to dish it every time he got in the lane.

by Royster on May 8, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe you are "reverse cherry picking" here

I studied the game splits extensively back during that time period and crunched a bunch of numbers. My conclusion was that Bayless showed rapid is highly erratic improvement over the time Blake was out. Nate basically gave Bayless only two games later in the season, and it was clear to anybody with eyeballs that the kid was trying too hard. He wanted it too much.

I don’t have the time or the patience to go back and grind through all the numbers for a discussion where neither of us is likely to change his mind. I’m just saying that I think the sample base is pretty small and if either of us can interpret the numbers in a way that tends to confirm our preconcieved opinions.

I do know that his PER for the overall period was higher than Blake’s PER for the season, which certainly suggests that the kid has some game.

by upper left corner on May 9, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Be realistic

Was anyone really “scouting” for Bayless in any games other than the ones when Blake was out?

Were assistant coaches cramming in prep sessions about how to defend the 12th man on the bench in the last five minutes of the fourth quarter in a 30 point game?

Nobody was doing scouting reports on the Blazers third string point guard. That point only has validity if you can point to games when Blake was out and say Bayless’s performance started to decline.

Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.

by KP Corleone on May 8, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Philadelphia seemed to control him much better than New Jersey by sagging off and allowing him to shoot

Each teams scouts and defends differently. New Jersey was surprised. Dallas has problems against quick point guards (see Tony Parker). I am encouraged by what Jerryd has done while Blake was out, but the statistical basis is small.

by Norsktroll on May 8, 2009 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No question that's the way to play him right now

But he dropped 34 in the summer league (I know, I know – it’s summer league!!) when he was defended like that, mostly by hitting Js when guys went under screens.

I think he tried to speed his shot up this year, with mixed results, but he’s too hard a worker and too talented a player not to fix his stroke eventually. The “sagging” D is a temporary problem.

Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.

by KP Corleone on May 8, 2009 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

(1) 82games says 52% of Bayless shots were jump shots and that he hit only 27% of them.

The most important improvement I need to see from Bayless is a quality jump shot. It’ll be hard for him to stay on the court until he has one — since he’s a scoring guard who needs the ball in his hands to make a large impact on a game.

(2) I don’t think his PG play — floor general skills + playmaking — are too large of an issue because of Brandon Roy. I only need to see him become a serviceable option, because Roy can even out the rest.

Now obviously, his value to the team grows exponentially if he ever becomes a high level floor general … but, so far, I think that looks very unlikely to happen.

by NBR on May 8, 2009 9:15 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Well, This will be an interesting summer for Bayless

He was absolutely abysmal this season and I’m not too optimistic about his prospects, but there’s no denying his physical gifts and if his work ethic is what people say it is, he’s got a chance.

by jksnake99 on May 8, 2009 9:16 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Abysmal?

He played like crud in crud minutes. He showed rapid improvement when Blake was out.

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

he was a lot better during that stretch with Blake out, true

but he set an extremely low bar for himself. He had about 4 good games. When given the chance to be the backup for a couple games after Blake was back, he failed miserably. I don’t think I’m off base in suggesting that his rookie year was absolutely dreadful.

by jksnake99 on May 8, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

His PER for the five weeks Blake was out was over 15

His PER was under 5 when Blake went down. It was almost 12 when Blake came back, that means that it had to have been above 15 during the time Blake was gone. That is very good for a rookie.

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

sorry, I'm not impressed

We could find good stretches of play in the rookie seasons of play during the rookie seasons of many terrible players. Overall, Bayless had a very, very poor season. I’m not writing him off, but I am not encouraged by what transpired during his rookie season.

by jksnake99 on May 8, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

count me down for not impressed either....

I just found a 12 game stretch where Sergio shot 11-24 from deep. Nearly 50%, but we all know Sergio isn’t a good 3 point shooter. I put far more credence in the situation that developed late in the season when Sergio was benched in favor of Bayless. Bayless got his chance, and he failed. Miserably. I hope he gets better, but trying to pick through Bayless’s season and use a small sample size of stats to cover up for him is not going to change my opinion that Bayless is a long way away from turning himself into a point guard.

RUDY > MJ

by myemic23 on May 8, 2009 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is not "trying to pick through Bayless's season"

This is 99% of the portion of the season when he was in the rotation. Nobody is picking and choosing on some arbitrary basis. You don’t think it’s valid to assign more significance to rotation minutes than garbage time?

Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.

by KP Corleone on May 8, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bayless played in 53 games....

In only 7 of those games did he play less than 5 minutes. Picking 10-12 games out of 53 to make your point is indeed cherry picking the stats IMO. I also don’t really buy into the whole garbage time means nothing statistically. I find it silly to say that Bayless’ performance is going to be hindered in garbage time. He is playing against scrubs. SCRUBS! If he has the mental fortitude that everyone champions him for, he should walk into that situation as aggressive as he does in any other situation. He is a prospect that is hungry for minutes and a chance to prove himself, garbage time is a platform in which to do that. Discounting garbage minutes as if he was sleepwalking out there is silly. Especially when the same people that discount the garbage minutes sit back and scream loudly about how intense and ferocious of a competitor he is. Either he isn’t the competitor most think he is, or garbage time statistics count for something….

RUDY > MJ

by myemic23 on May 8, 2009 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

isn't it cherry-picking the stats

to set the bar at five minutes played? He had games of 6, 7, and 8 minutes played. Those are still spot minutes.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

6-8 minutes is a normal stint in the rotation for Batum...

Setting the bar at 5 minutes is simply my way of determining what is blowout garbage minutes, and what is a legitimate chance to break a sweat and effect the game. 5 minutes or more is in my opinion a reasonable stint on the floor. The backup pg minutes that Sergio got generally did not come in stints longer than 5 minutes….

RUDY > MJ

by myemic23 on May 8, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Either he isn’t the competitor most think he is, or garbage time statistics count for something….

People think this all the time, but it’s not valid. If you’re a competitor, you’re driven by the desire to WIN. Not to pad your stats in garbage time. I’d say, if anything, there’s an inverse relationship between competitiveness and performance in garbage time.

“Me first” stats guys will pad their stats in that time. Competitors will go through the motions because there’s nothing on the line.

Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.

by KP Corleone on May 8, 2009 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe, but that isnt the way I see...

Competitors are driven by the desire to compete. A competitor would rather compete and lose than not compete at all. I would think that a really competitive guy would hate rotting away on the bench and would take advantage of any opportunity to prove himself. Especially if garbage time was his only platform to prove that he should play when the game matters.

Say you want to be a mechanic and you work at a shop where you are just a tool fetching grunt. Every now and then, the mechanics finish their daily projects early and leave you to do something simple like changing the oil on some junker. Its not an important task but it is a chance to show you can twist some wrenches. Are you going to half ass that oil change or give it 100% effort in hopes they will give you more responsibility in the future?

We can agree to disagree if you like, I am cool with that…

RUDY > MJ

by myemic23 on May 8, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This reminds me of the "closer" in baseball

If the “save” guy doesn’t get enough work the Mgr will put him in during a game where the outcome is already decided, and the highly-competitive closer will tend to not concentrate and give up hits/runs

Some guys just need that adrenaline rush to perform well

by two4larue on May 8, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

however, anyone out on a basketball court is always trying to

hit his shot. nobody wants to go 0-3, 1-4. the fact that bayless did not look free and easy or in any way confident when he took those jumpers at the end of the shot clock — that was what troubled me.

ignacio

by ignacio on May 8, 2009 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's off base because his numbers during garbage time are meaningless

Moreover, it’s also not as if his stretch of good games were just some magical occurrence. They happened for a reason. There was a change in the roster that had nothing to do with Bayless. The entire stretch when Blake was out was solid.

In addition, the idea that he was given a chance to be a back-up after Blake returned and “failed miserably” is simply a fiction. In none of the games after Blake returned was Bayless given more than 20 minutes. Moreover, in the games where he had more than 10 minutes, his numbers aren’t that bad. They include the game against the Clippers and Minnesota. Neither of those performances were miserable. The “miserable” performances game after Sergio came back as the second string PG and Bayless only played in meaningless situations.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pgl.cgi?player=bayleje01&year=2009

by PoliSam on May 8, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

PoliSam trumps you here, jk, and makes the point I've been trying to make repeatedly about B-Rex

Look at his stats during the stretch Blake went out and explain to me how they’re atrocious in any way, shape, or form. Those are the vast majority of all MEANINGFUL minutes Bayless played this season.

You know how 82 games looks at crunch-time stats? You’re looking at the reverse for Bayless. The wider the point differential, the less significant the statistics. They mean absolutely nothing when they’re all coming in 25 point games with two minutes left.

When Bayless got minutes, he was very promising. I don’t see how that can be meaningfully disputed.

Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.

by KP Corleone on May 8, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm a big fan of PoliSam and usually agree with him

I don’t agree in this case though. My impressions of Bayless from this season were very unfavorable and the overall data backs me up. That’s what I’m sticking with.

by jksnake99 on May 8, 2009 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bayless could have become the 2nd-string PG, and he was unable to

beat out Sergio Rodriguez. That’s not tremendously encouraging.

ignacio

by ignacio on May 8, 2009 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Point-Guard-Polooza

Yesterday, I started my comment on Nic, by saying I thought it made sense to discuss the team by position rather than by player. So I chipped in my two cents on all three SFs. Today, I will offer up my thoughts on all three PGs, although given my chronic Baylophilia, I will concentrate on JB.

PG is the position of greatest weakness on the team and greatest contention among the fans. The Blazers have three guys with skills, but each has significant holes in his game. Opinions vary about each of the three, and about what changes should be made for next season

BLAKE: Steve was the starter for a reason: the team played better with him at the controls. Particularly in the absence of Martell, Blake’s outside shooting became essential to the team’s success. When Steve shot well, the offense worked well, when he did not, opponents were often able to clog the middle and make things difficult for Brandon. Blake is a solid, low-risk distributor who generally makes good decisions and few turnovers.

Blake was essential to the teams success, but his limitations are pretty obvious: limited ability to create his own shot; very limited ability to drive and finish at the rim; lack of speed to push the ball up-court. Most importantly, Blake struggles in certain defensive match-ups. He is OK on defense against about half of the PGs in the league, however, he really struggles against uber-fast or uber-strong PGs. In order to try to stay in front of his man, Steve tends to back off of his opponent. This allows them to go were they want to go on the floor and gives them lots of angles for passes. On pick and rolls, Steve lack of strength and lateral quickness are a real problem: he is unable to fight through a lot of screens and lacks enough quickness to consistently recover when he goes below the pick. In general, Blake is unable to generate much on-the-ball pressure, and his struggle to stay in front of his man plays a major role in our bigs picking up fouls against penetrating PGs.

So there we have it, Blake is essential but limited. We need his shooting and steady hand, but his defense is a major reason the Blazers team defense is not at an elite level.

RODRIGUEZ: I am not going to spend a lot of time on Sergio. I think he is a player with a special flair for the game, and I think it is quite possible that in the right circumstances he could develop into a better PG than Blake, but I don’t think Sergio is a good fit for the Blazers. His game is not well suited to playing next to Roy. Sergio needs the ball in his hands and he is not very effective off the ball. He is not a particularly good shooter, nor a consistent threat to take it to the hole. When the ball is in Brandon’s hands it is too easy for Sergio’s man to sag off and help clog the middle. Sergio’s defense suffers from many of the same problems as Blake. Sergio lacks the strength to fight through picks, and he has trouble staying in front of his man.

I may be wrong about Sergio, or I may be wrong about the Blazers plans, but I would be surprised if Sergio is here in the fall. Sergio himself has said publicly that he expects to be traded.

BAYLESS: My concern about PG defense is what got me interested in JB. Unlike Steve and Sergio, JB has strength, speed, and athleticism in abundance. Based on his High School All-American status, and his one season at UA, it was clear from the start that this was a guy who was a threat to score, and a guy who had the physical skills to apply on-the-ball pressure. From the draft onward, the question with Bayless was whether or not he could, or would, play the role of distributor.

In general, I think Dave’s write-up is fairly on the money. Bayless did not earn consistent minutes because he did not consistently produce. Too often, he looked a little out of control, or looked like he did not have a clear idea of what he wanted to do with the ball. Bayless seemed to have two modes. He was either in scoring mode, where he would often be overly aggressive and just put his head down and try to drive to the basket, or in passing mode where he was trying too hard to show his willingness to pass and his ability to generate assists. If you watched Bayless closely, you could see the hesitation that crept into his game when he switched back and forth from one mode to the other.

To me, Bayless’ problem appears similar to Oden’s. He is an athlete with tremendous physical gifts who is trying too hard and thinking too much. The effort and the thought are causing hesitation; hesitation that gives opponents time to recover. What both guys need is time on the floor. Repetition leads to relaxation and quicker decision making. This season, with the incredible pressure to get to the playoffs, Nate was only able to tolerate so many rookie mistakes. Greg, Nic, and Rudy had to be in the rotation. Jerryd did not.

Where I do find fault with Dave’s write-up is in his use of “season” stats to evaluate Bayless’ play. I believe these stats are very misleading and lead to a faulty evaluation of Bayless’ play. I believe it is far more accurate to divide Bayless’ season into three parts:

1) Before Blake’s injury: Bayless played short stints, mostly in blowouts and compiled horrible stats. His shooting was lousy, his assists here almost nonexistent. When Blake went out, his PER for the season was below 5.

2) During Blake’s injury: Baylsess’ play was inconsistent but showed rapid overall improvement. For the last ten games of Blake’s absence Bayless shot 48% and averaged over 4 assists on 20 min of play per game. Bayless started to get comfortable in his sneakers. He started figuring out how to use the threat of his ability to drive to create opportunities for his teammates. He would take two steps causing the other team to collapse and then swing the ball to Brandon or Rudy for the open 3. He managed to drop the ball to open bigs off the drive and found Outlaw in the corner. In short, he started looking like a bouncing baby PG. By the time Blake came back, Bayless’ PER was up to about 12, meaning that it was above 15 for the month that Blake was out.

3) After Blake’s return: A lot of Bayless’ minutes after Blake’s return again came in short stints and frequently, Bayless was not really playing the point. Nate used him in three guard line-ups were the distribution duties were performed by Blake or Brandon or Sergio, or used him as a SG (after Rudy’s fall). Bayless, often played SF during these stints bringing up the ball, flipping it to Brandon, and then standing in the corner at the 3pt line. Obviously these stints depressed Bayless’ overall stats.

Where do we go from here? To me, the team really only has two choices. If they are confident that Bayless has what it takes to become the teams starting PG over the next year or two, they should trade Sergio, start Blake, give the back-up minutes to Bayless and gradually increase his minutes as his play warrants. Under this scenario, the team might bring in an older journeyman as insurance against injury. Hopefully, by the play-offs next season, Bayless will have progressed to the point where he can play significant minutes, particularly against some of the quicker PGs the team is likely to face in the play-offs.

The second choice, if the team is unsure about Bayless’ future development, they need to make bringing in a veteran point guard their highest priority for the off-season. We do not need any more rookie PGs. This franchise has had too many over the last decade. Heinrich would be an obvious choice. If Heinrich is too expensive, Sessions or Miller or Bibby are other obvious choices, although the latter two are both aging and all three have their own limitations. Of coarse, we can all fantasize about better, younger players (Parker, CP3, Arenas) but these are all unlikely scenarios. Quality PGs are rare and expensive.

Listen to KP in the last Courtside of the season, when asked about whom he has high expectations for improvement, he mentions two players: Webster and Bayless. I think it is a tell. I don’t think KP would have mentioned Bayless if he has a strong inclination to trade him. That doesn’t mean that Bayless is untouchable, if JB is the price of a really good, younger PG, then plans may change. But, I expect Sergio will be gone. I don’t think the team can afford to trade Blake unless they get a veteran PG in return, and I don’t think they can keep both young guys happy with a veteran in front of them.

I’m completely comfortable with the thought of JB as the back-up. I think he showed enough during Blake’s absence to warrant time on the court. We need to find out if he has what it takes to develop into a starter. IMHO, the team can not afford to go through the next couple of play-offs with Blake as our starting PG. Improved perimeter defense is one of the keys to the Blazers taking their place among the league’s elite teams and essential if we are to challenge for a title.

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 9:18 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

i'll reply tomorrow

when i get done reading this

Must... ...not... ...like... ...the... ...Nuggets....

by appel82 on May 8, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

just read it, didn’t take very long because it’s quality. :-)

Must... ...not... ...like... ...the... ...Nuggets....

by appel82 on May 8, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

...if you're into the whole brevity thing...

-The Dude

Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.

by KP Corleone on May 8, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

excellent review

I agree that Bayless’s stats in limited minutes are misleading. Those numbers are terrible, but they are worthless in assessing Balyess’s potential.

by PoliSam on May 8, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Outstanding post

That was long but very worth reading. Could be its own separate fanpost.

Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.

by KP Corleone on May 8, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I take the Occam's Razor

view on the situation: we trade Sergio for what we can get, keep Blake and slide Bayless over to PG2 and get him a consistent 15-20mpg until he is confident enough to take over the team post-ASG.

Some bemoan Nates rotations, but they are taking a very shortsided view on the situation. While on the surface it seems like Nate is playing favorites, if you look deeper, he is trusting and building confidence in his players. Especially w/ PGs Nate gives them a long leash, playoffs notwithstanding. During training camp, the PGs were slotted out and that was the rotation. If you make a mistake or a bad pass you still get to stay in because you had earned it and your next pass will be a great one.
good or bad you have to roll with your guys and let it sort itself out in the offseason.

"Damn the Blazers. Damn them to hell. They are working the rest of the league like a speed bag." - Bill Simmons 6/26/08

by SpyderRyder on May 8, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe I can honestly say

that this statement has never been written before on BE:

Especially w/ PGs Nate gives them a long leash

by Royster on May 8, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't make that statement...

anytime Sergio is near a blunt instrument to attack you with.

Love him or not, one thing Sergio has never had is a long leash from Nate. It’s about a two-inch leash and the collar is spiked.

Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.

by KP Corleone on May 8, 2009 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

at what point

do we just give up? Sergio has potential, but he’s the antithesis of a Nate point guard. Players work better in a system that maximizes their strengths and minimizes their weaknesses. Nate’s system makes Sergio look worse than he actually is by minimizing everything he is good at.

Send him to a coach that appreciates a Sergio type at the point.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

there is a long list of coaches that like big, physical points

and some that like “fly” point guards, as Chad Buchanon called them.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just a bad fit

It’s like dating a hot, cool girl who you’re just not compatable with. She might be awesome, but if you’re not awesome together, at some point you gotta let go.

Nate might be the worst coach in the league for Sergio and the best for Blake. He doesn’t appreciate risky passes with big upside. He’s the anti-D’Antoni, and Sergio is in the same player-type as Nash – he likes to take chances, and that leads to more assists AND more turnovers.

Nate doesn’t think the assists are worth the turnovers. A lot of other coaches (but not nearly all of them) do.

The one thing I will never understand about Nate and Sergio is why, if Nate doesn’t like the way Sergio plays D, he doesn’t just tell him to allow a little more space. Sergio’s always playing two feet away from the opposing point guard at halfcourt, and Nate doesn’t seem to like it… but it seems so easily correctable.

I think Sergio could be a pretty good defensive PG, based on his lateral quickness.

Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.

by KP Corleone on May 8, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A bad fit for the Team, not just coach

With a starting line up with Roy, Aldridge, Oden (future), I don’t think the Blazers want a PG who:

1. dribbles the air out of the ball trying to collect assists like Sergio or Nash
2. a PG who is only valuable with the ball in his hands so he can create his own shot like Bayless or Andre Miller, but can’t shoot to spread the floor.

That’s why I think a PG in the mold of Blake, Kirk Hinrich, or Mike Bibby are ideal for this team. A player who can bring it up, get the ball in the right hands, doesn’t make too many mistakes, and can spread the floor from long range.

These types of PGs are a good fit for Nate and the starting lineup.

by RABID_RABBIT on May 8, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I want a Hinrich/Bayless tandem

because they have opposite skills and would complement each other well.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

And yeah, I would LOVE the Hinrich/Bayless combo next year.

Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.

by KP Corleone on May 8, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting fact:

Besides Magic, how many PGs have won a championship in the year they averaged over 10apg?

ZERO

"Damn the Blazers. Damn them to hell. They are working the rest of the league like a speed bag." - Bill Simmons 6/26/08

by SpyderRyder on May 8, 2009 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I completely agree

about the comparison to Oden. You can almost see the gears visibly grinding in their head in certain situations when they get the ball. Frustrating to watch and I’m sure uber frustrating for them to experience.

SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.

by MrGrinch on May 11, 2009 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bayless at PG

Anyone else think that if Bayless shows this summer during Summer League that he just can’t run the offense the way Nate wants that we bring over our Finnish PG? I can’t remember his name, but he seemed to show quite a bit of promise last year.

"I've learned one thing, and that's to quit worrying about stupid things. You have four years to be irresponsible here. Relax. Work is for people with jobs. You'll never remember class time, but you'll remember time you wasted hanging out with your friends. So, stay out late. Go out on a Tuesday with your friends when you have a paper due Wednesday. Spend money you don't have. Drink 'till sunrise. The work never ends, but college does" - Tom Petty

by Work?nah... on May 8, 2009 9:34 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Petteri Koponen

He might be in summer league, but the last year didn’t go too well for him in Italy. He is stuck behind Earl Boykins, has terrible stats, and also sees time at both PG and SG. He is basically Bologna’s Sergio/Bayless and nowhere near NBA ready.

by Norsktroll on May 8, 2009 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

will he be at summer league again?

Must... ...not... ...like... ...the... ...Nuggets....

by appel82 on May 8, 2009 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That sucks too

Petteri became a cult favorite of mine for some reason.

SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.

by MrGrinch on May 11, 2009 7:49 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

65%

Is the amount of games jbay appeared in this season, how many of those were already decided before he came in? Probably at least 15%. That means Bayless came off the bench in probably less than 50% of the games this season, it’s tough to get a very good idea of what this guy will turn into, all i know is he just needs to play, for some team, consistently; because he’s already done rudy and sergio’s share of work in the weight room for the next couple years.

Must... ...not... ...like... ...the... ...Nuggets....

by appel82 on May 8, 2009 9:50 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Part of his problem is that he's been too gifted physically.

Since he has been able to beat people with his athleticism to this point, he hasn’t had to learn very many skills to score. If he were slower he would have had to figure out how to set up other people earlier in his career. Think of BRoy playing against his older brother. He couldn’t beat him straight up so he had to learn to finish with both hands, he had to become more crafty. Now that he is forced to, Bayless will start to learn some of the old man tricks that allow players to continue to compete when their physical gifts don’t do the entire job any more. Hopefully Jerryd is coachable and will discover how good it feels to set up other guys by drawing help defense and he’ll get his shot to improve. He’ll still get to use his athleticism on drive and kicks and on occasional forays to the rim, but the drives will be set up by the other good things he does to improve the team.

by jmb95 on May 8, 2009 9:56 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

What's not to like about J'Bay?

The time will come for him soon….. And I can’t wait!! He’s that nasty edge that this team needs so bad.

2-4 the who

by 24thewho on May 8, 2009 10:40 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Very impressed

by the comments above – most are well reasoned, well supported, and IMHO quite logical. One made me shake my head in wonder, but I’m guessing it was written tongue in cheek.

Bayless has always said he’s a natural point guard and I’ve yet to see that, but then I like pass-first pgs so I come into the discussion biased. Dave commented early in the season that he plays with his head down and a pg just cannot do that. Dave did not mention that tendency in the above analysis and I wonder why because I still saw it late in the season. Of course he was in garbage time and that’s almost like Summer League – every man for himself. But to me he does NOT look like a natural point guard. I’d rather see him as a SG, but at this point there just isn’t room on the team for him.

I’ve been interested in the comments about his physicality, esp. the one that said he’s maybe too strong. How many dunks did he blow because he jammed it down too hard in not the right spot? We’d see him drive to the rim, loving how bodies flew as he made progress, then he’d power down a dunk and the ball would end up half way to center court. It’s almost like he wants to be a power point guard. It’s obvious he has worked on his strength and likes to show it off. Now if we could get him to work on his finesse and know when to apply it, we might have a real winner.

Ideal situation for me would be for Blake to take Jerryd under his wing this summer. I’ve seen it mentioned more than once that Blake would be a good coach. Now’s an ideal time to try it out. Coach him on how to play pg with this team. Work on his decision making about passing vs shooting, on keeping his head up and watching plays develop, on seeing the open man and hitting him at just the right place. Sure Jerryd will take minutes from him, but Steve is the ideal back-up point guard. If we could put Blake’s BBIQ in Jerryd’s body and put Steve in the second unit we’d be set for years…

by jorga on May 8, 2009 10:42 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

How many dunks did he blow because he jammed it down too hard in not the right spot?

Really? I can only recall this happening to Jerryd once or twice… maybe I’m forgetting things.

I’d also try to get Hinrich… having him mentor Bayless would be incredible. Apparently, he’s like Derrick Rose’s personal mentor… they are always texting, talking, trying to get better.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting comments

Bayless played point in HS, but was shifted to UA because of injury to the team’s top SG. I’m guessing that Bayless’ freakish physical skills hampered the development of his skills as a distributor. He was usually the best player on the court, and because of his burning desire to win, he was often the best scoring option for his team. He has the handle of a PG and the speed of a PG and is able to defend other PGs. The real question is whether he has the court vision and decision making abilities of a PG. Opinions vary as to whether these skills can be learned at the professional level.

Given the new hand checking rules, there is a real premium on PGs who can get to the rim. Blake’s inability to do so is a tremendous limitation because it reduces the overall pressure on the opponent’s defense. Whether it is Bayless, or someone else, I think the days of old-school, pass-first PGs are largely numbered. To be successful, you need a PG who can score and dish.

by upper left corner on May 8, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, Jerryd Bayless was scouted as a shooting guard out of high school.

http://arizona.scout.com/2/376426.html

http://wc.arizona.edu/papers/98/236/02_4.html

Again, Nic Wise was the starting point guard at Arizona throughout a fair amount of the 2007-2008 season — except for a few games in which he was out with an injury, wherein then head coach Kevin O’Neill shifted Chase Budinger into a point forward role and increased backup point guard Daniel Dillion’s minutes to compensate for Bayless’ deficiencies at facilitating the offense — thus, you’re continued disinformation on this topic is baffling stuff.

Also, the Wildcats’ returning shooting guard from the 2006-2007 season to the 2007-2008 season, Jawaan McClellan, WASN’T INJURED at any point; instead, he saw his role change from starting shooting guard to defensive stopper on the wing.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/teams/stats?teamId=12&year=2007
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/teams/stats?teamId=12&year=2008

All right, I hope this finally settles any fallacious comments about Bayless’ time at Arizona.

by AK1984 on May 8, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There seems to be mixed information on this score

This is from Draft Express Nov 2007 at the beginning of basketball season during his year at UA

“Entering his freshman year at the University of Arizona, the talented guard brought high expectations to campus along with his talent. Bayless has been asked to be a full-time point guard for the Wildcats”

by upper left corner on May 9, 2009 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jerryd Bayless might've been recruited originally as a potential replacement for Mustafa ...

Shakur at point guard; however, the coaching staff at Arizona was sharp enough to realize that Bayless wasn’t able to make the transition to a floor general. As a result, returning players Nic Wise and Daniel Dillon were counted on to handle the point guard duties and let Bayless run amok at shooting guard.

At any rate, though, Bayless just isn’t a pure point guard. Whether it’s due a lack of court vision, clouded tunnel vision, and/or me-first attitude toward playmaking, all I realize is that Bayless is intrinsically incapable of effectively running an offense. Y’know, it’s just one of those things that comes naturally, with Bayless unfortunately being a poor sap who lacks that inherent quality.

by AK1984 on May 10, 2009 1:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The "court vision" thing strikes me as an unprovable assertion

Here is a lengthy response I just wrote in another thread:

Ah yes, the “mystical court vision” argument

Basically this is the "nature vs. nurture" argument of the hardwoods. The problem with this argument is that there is very little substantive data that can be used to evaluate it. Those who believe that PG are born and not bred wax eloquent about the mystical qualities of court vision and claim that you either have it by middle school or you will never develop it.

To me, this seems mostly silly. "Seeing" the court and passing the ball are skills. Skills can be learned. It may be true that a select handful of PGs have some kind of exceptional "gift" or "talent" for seeing angles and the flow of the players that allows them to be better at knowing where there teammates will be open. Magic and Nash are examples of guys who seem to have something special. OTOH, it seems reasonable to me that athletes who have the right physical attributes, the right attitude, and the willingness to work at it can develop this skill.

I am pretty darn good on a pool table. I can "see" the angles and visualize how I need to stroke the cue ball so that I end up where I need to be for my next shot. But I have no illusion that this is anything other than practice in my younger years.

As I look around the NBA, I believe there is an undeniable trend towards more scoring by PGs than 10 or 20 years ago. Part of this is the new rule prohibiting hand checking above the free-throw line. This change really gives an advantage to quick players in general, and to guys with a good first step in particular. Guess what? Almost every review of Bayless’ game remarks on his "devastating" first step, his "explosive" leaping ability, and his outstanding body control in the air.

It seems to me, Bayless does not need to be a magician with the ball, he just needs to learn to use the threat of his scoring to create opportunities for his teammates. He has not yet demonstrated an ability to do this on a consistent basis, but we did see multiple flashes of this during the time Blake was out. On several occasions during that stretch, Bayless started his drive and then as soon as the defense started to collapse to give his defender help, he swung the ball to an open teammate at the three line. On other occasions, he would drive further and then drop the ball to an open big down low. Assuming Bayless gets his outside shooting figured out, and the odds are good given his history, he is going to be a LOAD to defend. Again he doesn’t need to be Magic, he just needs to be competent.

I think we have seen enough to think he can get there. Above everything else, he needs time on the floor. The more decisions he makes the easier they will become. The more mistakes he makes, the sooner he will learn what not to do. He is very smart, a HS honor student who has talked about going to law school when his playing days are done. He shows every indication of being coachable.

The only end to this circular argument is to give the kid a chance and see what happens. To me, it makes sense to see what we have before investing huge assets in bringing in another young point and starting the development process all over again. If we can get a moderate upgrade at an affordable price to ensure more short term success and fewer problems if Bayless doesn’t pan out, that seems prudent.

by upper left corner on May 10, 2009 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Serious question, and not to be snarky

But what is the difference between a “natural point guard” and a “pure point guard.”

I’ve often heard Blake described as a “pure point guard.” I hate it when folks answer their own question, but maybe natural=short and pure=pass first? I honestly don’t know though. Just speculating.

by tominhawaii on May 8, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's how I define certain players.

Ben Gordon, Jason Terry, and Eric Gordon are undersized shooting guards.
Jerryd Bayless, Monta Ellis, and Louis Williams are combo guards.
Steve Blake, Derek Fisher, and Kirk Hinrich are off guards.
Chris Paul, Steve Nash, and Deron Williams are pure point guards.

by AK1984 on May 8, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I'd also add them if I extended the list.

I went with just three players under each classification, though, so as to condense it.

by AK1984 on May 8, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

right

I put the three “purest” point guards as Calderon, Kidd, and Nash, myself.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tony Parker

is TP closer to “combo” or “pure”?

by two4larue on May 8, 2009 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Combo guard. Even tending towards small 2 guard/scoring guard.

He drives a lot looking for his own shot, but has learned to set up his teammates increasingly well over his career.

Here is a scale made by Tom Ziller that is probably not perfect but tells the story quite well.

by Norsktroll on May 8, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

I remember this chart from the debates we had last summer before Calderon signed with Toronto.

by two4larue on May 8, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is a nice story that Popovich wanted to send Parker home after his first workout
…when we gave him his first workout, we didn’t think he was tough enough – and we sent him home. And then we set up another interview, another workout… and he was fantastic in that one."
—-Gregg Popovich,
Prior to the 2001 NBA Draft, Parker was invited to the San Antonio Spurs summer camp. Parker’s first experiences were daunting as coach Gregg Popovich had him play against Spurs scout and ex-NBA player Lance Blanks. Parker was so overwhelmed by Blank’s tough and physical defense that Popovich was ready to send him away after just 10 minutes.12 But after seeing a “best of” mix tape of Parker’s best plays, Popovich decided to invite Parker a second time.10 This time, Parker made a better impression against Blanks; the Frenchman later described Blanks as a “one-man wrecking crew”.12

by Norsktroll on May 8, 2009 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Sergio and/or Travis does not get traded...

…and Martell coming back, how is he suppose to get the minutes to develop?

by Jblaze on May 8, 2009 11:14 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't expect all 3 of those guys to be back

One or two will likely go in the offseason in my estimation

What are you impressions of Roy?
"He's just a very, very good basketball player. Very smart. Very heady. He can do a little bit of everything on the court. As coaches, when we scout Portland we kind of put him in the same category as Kobe (Bryant), LeBron (James), Dwyane Wade. We treat him the same. He's that good."

- Byron Scott

by CMCWizard on May 8, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Outlaw and Webster aren't going anywhere this summer

Batum is the future. Webster could be the present but just spend a year injured. Outlaw isn’t perfect, but you know what you got with him. The SF position is wrapped up. I’m not saying Webster or Outlaw won’t be traded, just not this summer.

As for Sergio, I think his discontent with lack of playing time exceeds the benefit of keeping him on the team for Rudy so he’ll get traded. I’ll bet anyone a diet soda, that it’s not a big trade though.

by tominhawaii on May 8, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem with this is mathematical
Outlaw and Webster aren’t going anywhere this summer. Batum is the future.

If Roy (to give Rudy time at the 2), Martell, Travis, and Nic all demand time at the small forward… there simply isn’t enough time. Someone has to go, to be fair to the rest.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Life is unfair

Nate is all about players earning their playing time. If Rudy plays better than those other guys, he’ll get his minutes. Trades don’t have to wait until the deadline (Detroit/Denver ’09 for example). The Blazers need a steady point guard and more scoring from the SF position. That can come from about 4 guys currently on the roster. The steady point guard will probably come from a veteran from somewhere else.

I think what will happen is that with a year of experience, Rudy will step up his game which will mean less minutes for Roy, which is a good thing and more time with Roy and Rudy on the floor together. Who gives a crap if someone not as good as Rudy or Roy don’t get their minutes? I don’t.

by tominhawaii on May 8, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

but we've seen this year

that when players don’t get enough minutes, their playing time suffers.

Say Roy gets 34-35 minutes, which is low. Rudy needs at least 26, which he got this year. That means that at least 12 of Rudy’s come from the small forward spot. Travis will probably get 12 at the 4… are Travis’ minutes really going to go down? He’ll command at least 14-16 minutes at the 3. That leaves 20 minutes for Batum and Webster to play.

It just doesn’t make sense. Players get better through playing time, as evidenced through Batum and Frye this year. Nebulous playing time hurts all parties involved.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't care

If they can’t earn it, that’s their problem. We were too deep at SF last year until Webster got hurt. The Blazers were a deep team until they matched up with the Rockets in the playoffs.

Obviously the Blazers will not keep Batum, Outlaw, and Webster long term. It’s just as simple as this: Batum is untouchable, which means that no other SF is coming in that will mess up his minutes. Webster just spend a year not playing so no one will want him in a trade, so that leaves Travis as the stopgap, until the Webster is tradeable or playing well enough to make Outlaw tradeable. — That’s just the way it is. This is a Bayless thread, so I’ll try to get back on topic.

Roy is not going anywhere and Rudy is not going anywhere. If anyone thinks otherwise, they are old, crazy, and a curmudgeon. — Just had to say that before I got back on topic since we were talking about Rudy’s minutes.

Blake is Nate’s guy and a back up point guard. When Nate met Bayless, Nate hugged him and said, “That’s my point guard.” That’s the reason, I feel Sergio is gone and Bayless is the future. (Not to mention Sergio’s desire for change.)

Bayless could have played this year and he might have gotten better. My money is on that his not playing made him more hungry to be the Blazers starting point guard than playing 20 minutes all 82 games this season ever would.

Bayless fans talk about his hunger and desire and then want to hand playing time to him. It is the biggest contradiction being perpetuated by Blazers fans since the the Bowie/Jordan draft. Jordan and Drexler (Roy and Rudy on a lesser scale) could have coexisted and if Bayless is everything his fans say he is, he will earn his playing time.

by tominhawaii on May 8, 2009 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trades don’t have to wait until the deadline (Detroit/Denver ’09 for example).

I’m not sure if you heard Warketine describe the Billups deal the other day, so I’ll give a synopsis of the interview

Teams were calling on Melo throughout the summer. Denver wasn’t going to deal him, but it took several months for the rest of the league to figure that out. Because of the Melo conversations with Dumars, Wark concluded that Billups could be had, because Detoit wanted more PT for Stuckey and salary cap relief. Stuckey had a good preseason and Wark knew he had a chance to get Billups, so what began as a Melo conversation morphed into the Iverson deal. And the result was exec of the year for Warkentine.

Having said all that, I think that trades during training camp or the first month of the season are much more rare than draft day deals, or “sign and trades” during the first week of July. Outlaw might make it to training camp, but a lot will depend on Webster’s rehab/progress and if KP acquires a backup PF who will eat up the bulk of Travis’ minutes

by two4larue on May 8, 2009 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hidden thought for the season's to come..

and speaking of minutes to develop/play

Will rudy be upset with not enough minutes??

if we got martell/outlaw/batum at SF then what?? outlaw can play a lil PF if we go small.

2nd unit for next year could be.. Bayless/Rudy/Webster/Outlaw/Billa now.. thats not to bad haha.

"Awesome! Totally awesome! All right, Hamilton!"

by B-ROYalty on May 8, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

and just let em run.

"Awesome! Totally awesome! All right, Hamilton!"

by B-ROYalty on May 8, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

reportedly

Wafer was always a good player… it was his ego and brain that got in the way. His mind developed on the bench…

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

also

it’s a lot different for a point guard to develop than a wing scorer.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sergio didn't play much his 2nd year but earned minutes his 3rd year

Part of that was from trading Jack, and part of it was from Sergio re-learning how to shoot in the off season.

My personal feeling are that the point guard is the last player you want developing his game in real NBA games. Out of all positions, that is the one that, to me, that requires the guy to earn his playing time instead of having it handed to him.

by tominhawaii on May 8, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

look at the historical stats of the great point guards, though

none of them really played that well at first, with the exception of Magic Johnson, Chris Paul, and a few other HoFers.

Billups. Rondo. Parker. These guys were not all that good, and cost their teams games along the way… but that’s how point guards develop.

draft dejuan blair

by Cablinasian on May 8, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

chicken and egg argument

How is a PG going to learn outside of a controlled structure and half-court offense? Pickup games in the summer aren’t going to give him that experience (no coaches are monitoring/dictating the play-calling, etc) There isn’t enough fullcourt, 5-on-5 practice time during the regular season. Training camp and regular season games are about the only training ground that simulates all of the conditions/variables that a PG will have to deal with

by two4larue on May 8, 2009 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't mean to stop typing

I’m pretty sure that Shav is better after this season than he was last season. He’s had an entire season to work on some aspect of his game.

by tominhawaii on May 8, 2009 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Could we take Oden and Bayless

…and transplant Bayless’s personality into Greg’s body?

by Jblaze on May 8, 2009 1:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The time to really evaluate and decide on Bayless is...

.next January or the January after that. Probably the latter cuz his role probably doesn’t change much the first half of next season. Sergio is probably gone but I don’t see Bayless going to 20+ minutes a game anytime soon. Nate will demand more results before he gives him that.

by StatRaven on May 11, 2009 12:40 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Regarding comparisons...

If Bayless goes the Monta Ellis that is the less attractive path. Ellis is way over-rated and way over-paid.

If he can be a Parker that would be a real boon.

I’d try to sneak minutes of Bayless with most of the starters more so than as the lead gun of a second unit. Scorer off the bench, that is Rudy’s role right now. Bayless-Roy (with JB emphasizing the role as facilitator and some wide open shooting / scoring) and Blake-Fernandez make more sense (by player pair data than Bayless-Fernandez. But of course the primary combo will be Blake-Roy.

by StatRaven on May 11, 2009 12:54 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

A site by Blazer fans, for Blazer fans
Start posting about the Trail Blazers »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Will_cowboy_small
Canzano Politicizes Roy For His Own Agenda
Small
The post that wouldn't be contained
Bender_small
Man, I hate when the Blazers play like this.
Redavatar2_small
16. We Have Liftoff! : The View from Chicago
Winged_vitory_small
Whither Sports

Recent FanPosts

Small
I am a fan, and I have no perspective
Adinkratabono_small
November 25th, 2009 - A Syracuse Kind of Junk
Small
The Only Solution to the Canzano Pollution
The_dude_small
Does Greg Need A Signature Move?
Small
More divisional rivalry?
Small
Oden or Durant, now...
Imported_photos_00004_small
DeJuan Blair, Greg Oden, and the Blazers front line

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Greg Oden is developing an offensive game. This is the moment in Jurassic...
oden's interview with nba.com
Historic photo of 1st Israeli & 1st Iranian to play in NBA: Omri Casspi & Hamed Haddadi
A modest proposal: Fire Mike Rice and Antonio Harvey!

Recent FanShots

From ESPN, Nov 24th 2009

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics
ESPYS 2007 - Both Greg Oden & Kevin Durant get some eye candy down low while presenting on stage. The one in black is Sharapova.. don't know who the other one is. Both have a nice expression: "damnn... that ain't that bad" .. specially Oden.
OMG, Roy Hates America, He might even be Canadian
Welcome to the Oden Era
And you thought it was bad when WE lost to the Warriors?
Called On Early
Greg will find a way.
Blazers / Nets Tomorrow Night. Center Court below face value
Caption Contest!
go!
Howard Bryant's Take on Retiring Jordan's #

+ New FanShot All FanShots >


Editors

Kitten_small Dave

Ben_small Ben.

Moderators

Pict1126_small -ken

Polar_bear_small jorga

Terryporter_small prezofdeath

Small usmcr3049

Jesus_icon_i_small T Darkstar

Wallpaper_small geoffm