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A Primer for Trade Analysis

With the 2008-09 year completed and the draft order now declared the season of speculation begins. 

This will be an interesting summer for the Blazers for a couple of reasons:

First, I'm fairly sure you're going to see significant roster changes within the next year.  Given management's tendency to avoid in-season maneuvering there's a good chance you'll see moves this summer.  It's not clear yet what the changes will be (more on that in a minute) but we'll probably see a shake up in the mid-rotation players at least.

Second, most of the significant moves in the Pritchard era have revolved around the draft.  The landscape is different this year.  With the 24th pick being their biggest in-draft asset the Blazers don't have nearly as much ammo to fire.  They do have inexpensive, experienced players to trade if they want to move up but it's unlikely that any of the guys they'd be willing to offer would draw enough attention to make an exponential leap in position.  Also the team has spent the last couple of years trying to transition out of the developmental phase and into contention.  They took a major step this year.  They are unlikely to hinge their future on another young star unless they're absolutely infatuated with him.  This means we'll probably see any major moves happening outside of the draft context.

Here's a very general rundown of the possibilities available to the team.  It's general because you guys are going to exhaustively cover and analyze every specific possibility in the next few months plus a bunch of specifics that aren't possible.  This is meant as a guideline while forming those ideas.

The most important thing to remember when considering trades is that it takes two to tango.  There has to be value in it for both teams.  That means recognizable, verifiable, tangible value.  Every year there are rumors of teams who are willing to dump great players for cap space or who are out of sorts with one of their stars or who just look like they need to make a move...any move.  Every year we see trade suggestions that eagerly take advantage of, and bank on, these special situations.  How many of them actually turn out to be true in real life?  History shows us almost none.  Granted the economic situation is supposed to be different this year and that may shade things, but how big of a fire sale did we actually see at the most recent trading deadline?  General Managers are not going to make moves with nebulous, risky benefits to them and their team.  Nobody wants to wake up and read in the paper that they got jobbed.  Not only is it bad for the ego, it doesn't promote job security.  GM's aren't dupes.  A GM who acts out of desperation is going to have a short tenure.  99.999999% of the time you have to trade value in order to get value.

Let me say that again:  You have to trade value in order to get value.

If you have to rationalize a trade, explaining it with extenuating circumstances, it's not going to happen. 

The typical approach to trade speculation is to assign the maximum possible value to your own asset and the minimum possible value to your trading partner's.  A good rule of thumb is to reverse that mindset, at least if you want your trades to be realistic.  When you go to a used car lot you're not just going to take a look at shiny chrome and make your purchase.  You want to know everything about the vehicle.  Everything you find wrong with it lessens its value to you.  Millions of people who are less than solid car experts employ this principle on a regular basis every year.  Do you think that NBA General Managers, of whom there are only 30 in the world, who are also the premier experts in their field, are suddenly going to forget it?  If you want to determine a realistic price for your player, look at him with skepticism.  Also assume your trading partner is going to want a premium on the transaction.  They're looking to get better, not stay the same.  You have to at least look like you're giving them that, so you may have to inflate the value of their player a little to make the deal work.  Sometimes the extenuating circumstances we just mentioned can provide that premium but in no way do they substitute for base value.

A general valuation of the roster:

If the Blazers are willing to part with one of their Big Three--for these purposes defined as Roy, Aldridge, Oden--the sky is the limit.  You'll not draw one of this year's serious MVP candidates, but you can think about anyone else who's not already in the perfect position.  If you're dreaming of another team's #1 superstar this is what it's going to take.

If the Blazers are willing to part with young talent from their next tier, which we'll define as Fernandez, Outlaw, Batum, and perhaps Webster you could probably find extremely solid veteran rotation help or perhaps a star on the downside of their career who is out of place with their current team.  The latter is more likely if you're offering Fernandez.  You may be able to trade young talent for young talent but those situations will be more rare.  (Again, teams are leery of lateral moves.)

If the Blazers offer one of their solid vets or their wildcard rookie (Przybilla, Blake, Bayless) they should be able to get veteran help in return but it would obviously have to be at a different position from the departing player in the case of Przybilla and Blake.  These players would be more valuable if used as extremely attractive throw-ins to bolster a trade involving one of the players above.

If the Blazers offer players that didn't play or didn't perform well for them this year, which would include Channing Frye and Sergio Rodriguez, they're probably looking at a targeted, aging veteran...your 32-year-old point guard type who can carry a deep rotation spot for a couple years.  These players could also be throw-ins for other trades but their added value is marginal.

In certain situations a player may have more or less value to a trading partner.  If you want to argue that for certain teams Bayless belongs in the second tier and could bring solid veteran rotation help (not that star though) I wouldn't argue.  Because of the injury and the up-and-down career preceding it Webster may belong a tier down as well.  No matter what the situation, though, a back-up point guard is still a back-up point guard.  Nobody is going to give up an amazing player, or even an amazing potential player, for a reserve that you just happen to be eager to part with.

If you're banking on moving up in the draft you're almost certainly going to have to part with an existing player to make a significant move.  The Blazers do have a trade exception available which could be used to accept a pick that a team is simply giving away.  The Blazers also have the ability to buy a pick outright.  Maybe in these economic times with the draft being considered weak you will find somebody who just wants to dump a first-rounder to avoid paying salary.  However remember these things:

--That pick isn't going to be a high lottery pick.  Nobody's going to be giving those away.  If they tried, somebody else would certainly make a more attractive offer than a trade exception or a cool $3 million.  In fact I'd be surprised if any pick north of the late teens was dumped.

--Seeing what happened to Phoenix with Rudy, teams are going to be more wary of this scenario.

--The number of teams willing to do this will be quite small.  The Blazers won't be targeting a pick in general, they'll be targeting a specific player with that pick.  You have to find somebody willing to dump their pick whose position allows you to select the guy you want.  That's a tall order.

There is a possibility of the Blazers acquiring a second first-rounder and then packaging both picks to get higher.  However this isn't the NFL.  There aren't 20-odd positions to fill and there aren't multiple dozens of players who are quality candidates for those positions.  If you consider the draft weak the incentive for trading one high pick for two lesser ones decreases.  Why get two risky or mediocre players instead of one?  Also that trade means the team now has two guaranteed salaries to pay instead of one, so you can't subscribe to that theory and also lean on the weak economy argument.

You also have to remember that no matter how regular the numbers look the spacing between them is not equal.  Moving up from 30 to 20 is child's play compared to moving up from 20 to 10 even though the difference appears to be 10 spaces in each case.  As the picks get better the premium required to move up gets higher.  The price of moving from 4 to 3 in this draft may be exorbitant.  Nothing short of a superstar will move you up from 2 to 1.

The value of the Blazers' 24th pick will fluctuate depending on what they are attempting to parlay it into.  You want to look at something from 19 on down?  Maybe if you get a team that would value Sergio or a couple second rounders you could swing that deal.  If you want to move up higher you have to look at the higher tiers of what we'd have to offer.  Travis Outlaw might get you more places in this draft than he would have in a stronger one.  He won't get you into the stratosphere though.

Keep in mind that this distance rule also applies in spades to second round picks.  In certain, limited situations a second-rounder can become valuable.  Most often it's when a team realizes that a player they want is going to be available at that spot.  However that doesn't happen until the actual pick approaches, so you won't see first rounders being dealt for second rounders in that scenario.  The picks near the first/second round border can be exchanged for contract purposes.  The 30th pick mandates a guaranteed contract.  The 32nd pick doesn't.  The guy with the 30th pick may want to trade down two spots to relieve his team of the potential burden.

Outside of these specific circumstances, however, second round picks don't have a lot of trade value except for acquiring other second round picks.  You could not package all of the Blazers' second rounders this year and move up much.  The distance between them and the money picks is too great.

A good rule of thumb for trades is this:  Envision the situation being reversed and ask yourself if you'd be happy with your GM making that deal.  If you held the 10th pick and had just gone through a sucktastic season you'd be pretty darn angry if Kevin Pritchard dealt it away for the 24th pick, a couple second-rounders, and some cash.  Rudy Fernandez is a hot young prospect for the Blazers.  How would you feel about Portland trading him away for another team's stalled reserve forward and their third-string point guard?  Torch and pitchfork sales would go through the roof.

Also keep in mind that multi-team trades are possible to a point but each party you add makes the deal more difficult.  Three is hard.  Four is near-impossible.  Just forget about five-team deals or greater.  That's like seeing a pretty girl's top slip off at the beach.  If it happens it's something you'll remember for sure, but if you go around looking for it something is wrong with you.

(Apologies to the female half of the crowd who might not be able to resonate with that analogy.  If you are so inclined and can think of something that fits you better, please chime in with it in the comments.  I know seeing a guy's trunks slip down is not the same.  That's hide your eyes and call the cops time.  I won't even hazard to guess what could work.  And please, guys need not either.  Leave it for the ladies among us.)

Finally, it's wise to keep your logic consistent through all parts of a deal if you have to explain why teams will go for it.  For instance you'll hear things like, "It's a weak draft so we should acquire pick #5 from the Wizards for cash.  Then we should package the 5th pick plus Steve Blake for Established Star X."  OK...is it a weak draft or isn't it?  If you assume the 5th pick has depreciated enough that it's available for cash then how does it suddenly have enough pull to be the main asset in acquiring an established star?  More to the point, why wouldn't the team with the established star simply fork over the cash if they wanted it that badly?  If you establish a certain value for an asset in order to make a trade work that value has to remain consistent through all parts of your trade in order for it to make sense.

I would suggest that people contunue the trade and/or draft drawers every day or two in the sidebar to harbor such talk.  Any simple suggestions or questions that fit under those categories should go in there.  I would also suggest that more nuanced and researched trade and draft topics could still merit their own posts.  I always cringe when people yell at other people for missing the designated drawers.  I've had enough of folks getting super-snotty with each other supposedly in the name of site guidelines when in reality the site guidelines exists precisely to limit our super-snottiness with each other.  So don't do that.

It's going to be an exciting couple of months.  I hope this helps with the trade talk a little.

--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)

1 recs  |  Comment 80 comments |

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Comments

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I have a feeling this post will be referenced many, many times

over the next couple of months.

"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"

by Magnum on May 21, 2009 1:33 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Ok, I really hate to admit how slow I am,

But after trying to find that analogy for the 3rd time I realized I couldn’t see the beach for the trees.

GO
THE TEACHER ......come into my classroom "THE PAINT" for some tutelage.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The rancor reflected in that remark I won't dignify with comment. But I'll address your general attitude of hopeless negativism." – Everett "O Brother, where art Thou?"

by Blazer1342 on May 21, 2009 6:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Frye+24th pick for the 2nd pick

Draft Ricky Rubio.

Blazers FTW.

by jksnake99 on May 21, 2009 1:59 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

who says we have to give up the 24th pick?

"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"

by Magnum on May 21, 2009 2:00 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

and Frye isn't value?

c’mon, that guy is a champ and a great human being

"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"

by Magnum on May 21, 2009 2:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Plus he lectures us about Being Green every quarter on commercials

So he’s obviously a paragon of virtue as well. We just can’t hear enough about how horrible human beings are to, well, everything.

Honor Alaa Abdelnaby.
First in the NBA. At least alphabetically

by OhOhOden on May 21, 2009 6:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

P.S. I apologize

to any polar bears, spotted owls, or college sophomores I might have offended with the above comment. I wouldn’t want to offend anyone unless it was in an as eco-friendly a manner as possible.

Again, I wholeheartedly and unreservedly say I’m sorry. Very.

Honor Alaa Abdelnaby.
First in the NBA. At least alphabetically

by OhOhOden on May 21, 2009 6:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The origin and the resolution of your guilt rest in your own mind.

by pxilpooshr on May 21, 2009 6:32 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That sounds like something that someone stuck in a comic strip somewhere in South America would say.

VENTURA: It's drowning. It gives you the complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you -- I'll put it to you this way, you give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.

by 22baylor on May 21, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Have you seen the train wreck double page?

by pxilpooshr on May 21, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes

but I need the link again please. – Elgin

VENTURA: It's drowning. It gives you the complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you -- I'll put it to you this way, you give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.

by 22baylor on May 22, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

One thing you have to keep in mind is that a player's trade value is not just determined by how good they are, often it is determined by how good they are in comparion to how much they get paid

An average player who has a very small salary might be worth much more than a good player who has a very large salary. Teams will sometimes give up players, even fairly good players, for cap relief if the players make too much money.

This is one of the reasons why I think Rudy and Batum have much more trade value than Outlaw or Webster. Rudy/Batum are probably better prospects than Outlaw/Webster to begin with, but you also have to factor in the Rudy and Batum will continue to be severely underpaid for the next 3 years while Outlaw and Webster are being paid market value. There is probably a significantly bigger gap in trade value between Rudy/Batum and Outlaw/Webster than there is between Outlaw/Webster and Przybilla/Blake/Bayless.

by trk on May 21, 2009 2:33 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

great point

If for some reason we traded away Rudy you can bet the other team’s owner will be dancing in the streets naked. Rudy gives us GREAT production for the money. What does he make, like a million and change? Amazing

"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"

by Magnum on May 21, 2009 3:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh Praise the Basketball Gods we didn't see Rudy in a Phoenix jersey ...

The image is too horrible to even ponder.

Rudyculize: The act of Rudy making others look slow, dim and generally oafish.
http://www.myspace.com/y5k

by Y5k on May 21, 2009 2:48 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

why?

he would fit well on un uptempo team.

"The problem with tweeners is that sometimes they’re exactly what you need to plug the hole and sometimes they are the hole."

-LaughingJon

by appel82 on May 21, 2009 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

We don’t want him against us in that sort of scenario.

by Zaig on May 21, 2009 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i say we trade our 24th plus cash for the beach girl bikini slip.

or maybe a couple of our 2nd rounders for the beach dude trunk slip?

"So, then, I was like, it'd be really dirty if I put up 42. So I did!" -Brandon Roy, post-game comments after game 2 of the first round of the 2009 NBA Playoffs

by 5212872 on May 21, 2009 3:14 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

These should have numbers

Then when someone has a silly proposal, we can just #4 them.

Also, I like it the best when someone actually runs the trade through a trade machine. I do not like it when someone says, “Trade Player X with filler for Player Y” or they say, “We need a banger.” Find the banger and devise a trade to get him.

"Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." - John Milton

by tominhawaii on May 21, 2009 3:35 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

i liked it least...

when people use running it through a trade machine to justify a trade..

if I remember right Lebron for RLEC straight up worked before the trade deadline.. how is that not a good trade? why wouldn’t danny ferry want to be lynched in the streets of ohio for the rest of his life?

there should be a sanity meter on trade machines..

"Slum dunk? You just go to the rim, and crush.. crush the ball in the rim."
- Nic Batum

by idoltime on May 21, 2009 4:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

I don’t think the trade machine justifies trades but it’s only fair to ask a person to find a way to make a $3 mil/year player trade with a $9 mil/year player work. “And filler” doesn’t cut it. And I don’t think a Van Horn/Kidd trade salary situation will happen this year.

"Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." - John Milton

by tominhawaii on May 21, 2009 4:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's true

It is very lazy of a poster to throw out a random trade and not go through the effort to make it work. Not only is it worthwhile to figure out just what would be meant by “filler”, but a trade machine will also keep you aware of funky issues (e.g., base year compensation).

of course.. on the other hand.. some people who were stuck on making a trade happen would go through endless iterations of adding other teams to the mix and attempt to justify why the 3+ teams would all benefit from a trade that basically amounts to the Blazers getting someone and all of the other teams swapping players around to make the salaries workout for everyone.. that’s like the opposite of laziness and maybe indicates a need to put the trade machine away for the night..

"Slum dunk? You just go to the rim, and crush.. crush the ball in the rim."
- Nic Batum

by idoltime on May 21, 2009 4:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

One thing: KP said interest in second round picks (esp. 32, 38) is HIGHER this year because you don't have to guarantee salary

Buying another lottery (not high) to mid-twenties pick for cash, those picks, and taking a bad contract back seems very possible. For example Bucks fans told me their team could be inclined to offer their #10 if another team would e.g. take Ridnour/Gadzuric off their hands so they can re-sign their free agents. The Wizards GM publicly has made his #5 pick available for the right offer because he still thinks they have a very good team next year and a rookie will have difficulty cracking the rotation. He might not be the only one who feels this way.

Of course there could be multiple buyers lining up if such a pick became available (Houston e.g. is looking for one). And we sometimes forget that while we come with offers a la “hey, wanna trade down to #24 and get Sergio and cash and …” another team like the Knicks to use an example can say “hey, wanna trade down to #8 for …. and Nate Robinson?”.

To paint another bad scenario, if KP would need the more cap space say for a Blake-Hinrich trade ($5.5 million difference) and still have some left for a FA like Bass (say $4 million), he might need to pay another team with cash and a second round pick just to take a player like Sergio and his $1.5 million off his hands instead of getting real value for him. It’s not extremely likely, but other teams had to do this in the past to clear space for incoming free agents or sign&trades (Philly for Elton Brand, Lakers for Chris Mihm, …). On the other hand, with our cap space we could benefit from such a maneuver to land a veteran another team wants to shed. Many possibilities.

Maybe Storyteller can recap this, but another erroneous thinking I regularly see is forgetting that we can’t use both cap space (after renouncing Channing) and the MLE, and that the traded player exception can’t be traded as an asset or used for more than one player.

by Norsktroll on May 21, 2009 5:15 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I really think you or Storyteller should write up a post

explaining the basics of the cap/tax specifically with respect to trading. Coon is great and thorough, but directing someone to it is a little bit like telling someone to look at a map of the US if they ask how to get to Seattle. I’m really too lazy to summarize it all, but I think it would be a good resource for a lot of posters who want to know about the bare bones of financials in trades without also having to dig through things like the Arenas provision, and cap holds of RFAs with tendered qualifying offers.

by Royster on May 21, 2009 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's my issue with using the "you'd be pretty angry" argument

fans don’t care about financials, GMs do. I’m sure Phoenix fans are pretty angry about selling us Rudy, and alternatively selling picks in many of the previous years (both to us and others), but that doesn’t mean the trades didn’t happen for a reason, and that their owner wasn’t happy with the trade.

Heck, how furious would I have been if I had been a New Orleans fan and seen that they had traded Chandler for Chris Wilcox and Joe Smith? But that trade still happened. I agree that a lot of these “pie in the sky” we’ll take Rubio in exchange for a bad contract proposals are ridiculous, but nearly every trade has a huge financial component to it now that just doesn’t factor into our visceral “this trade is fair” fan reaction. There is a huge financial gain to a owner moving under the tax threshold, in the $10+ million range which is pretty meaningless to the average fan. I don’t think that shouldn’t be factored into proposals just because they don’t seem “fair” on a straight talent for talent basis.

by Royster on May 21, 2009 5:57 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

great stuff

and Royster just stated what I may have thrown out there. Between the multiple dimensions of what can make a trade valuable for a team like talent upgrade, short term financial gain, long term financial stability, chemistry/character clashes and the fact that some players may be given more or less value depending upon the situation on the team .

but more importantly

That’s like seeing a pretty girl’s top slip off at the beach. If it happens it’s something you’ll remember for sure, but if you go around looking for it something is wrong with you.

(Apologies to the female half of the crowd who might not be able to resonate with that analogy. If you are so inclined and can think of something that fits you better, please chime in with it in the comments. I know seeing a guy’s trunks slip down is not the same. That’s hide your eyes and call the cops time. I won’t even hazard to guess what could work. And please, guys need not either. Leave it for the ladies among us.)

Given how many guys seem to fall into the category of “something is wrong with you”, I’m going to be the first representative of XX to say that the male preoccupation with lady lumps has no gender parallel. I’m mean seriously.. they’re alright and all but the obsession level in dominant culture is just out of control.

if you wanted to make a more across-the-board resonant analogy, you may have to turn to something entirely different. Now… what is a thing that you are not very likely to ever see – as it is both rare and random – so it makes no sense to preoccupy your time with searching for it. uhm.. male empathy? haha no.. i have no idea.. four leaf clovers?

i guess i will say that you probably picked the best analogy possible, dave, because the guys all get it (or wish!!) and the girls get it to.. as we constantly have to remind you guys where the eyes are (put words on my face!).

and now i’ll be thinking about milk shakes all day long..

Take it to the Hole!!

by galacticlove on May 21, 2009 6:26 AM PDT reply actions   3 recs

I totally feel what you’re saying.

by pxilpooshr on May 21, 2009 6:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

You go girl!

"Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." - John Milton

by tominhawaii on May 21, 2009 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think Dave was thinking about you when he wrote that

"Whatever...I heard Bayless uses a pillowcase as a wallet." --TiH

by prezofdeath on May 21, 2009 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah

Why would I try to improve upon Dave talking about sweater kittens? I think he was concerned about the perverts on Blazers Edge kicking it up a notch.

"Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." - John Milton

by tominhawaii on May 21, 2009 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1 for the lady lumps line

The pretty girl at a beach analogy was a good analogy. It’s hard to beat; there isn’t really a female version.

The closest parallel I can come up: That’s like seeing LaMarcus change his jersey during a game. It’s possible, but if that’s why you’re going to games there’s something wrong with your life. (See? That analogy doesn’t even come close to the girl on the beach.)

by Corvid on May 21, 2009 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, guys can look where they want.

You don’t have a right to tell them what part of you to look at.

by pualo on May 21, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1 for mentally undressing women during conversations

oH! were you talking to me?

i was too busy fantasizing about all of the performance anxiety you would make me feel.. allriiight.. giggitygiggity

"Slum dunk? You just go to the rim, and crush.. crush the ball in the rim."
- Nic Batum

by idoltime on May 21, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

".. i have no idea.. four leaf clovers?"

I’m pretty sure it would have something to do with shoes.

No, wait. That’s Ben.

Never mind.

by raoulduke on May 21, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

When

is the date for free agency to begin and the date that we’ll start seeing trades popped off?

if brandon roy played for toronto he'd be brandon waaaaah

by R1cEbUrNeR on May 21, 2009 8:44 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

july 1 i think for free agents

trades can’t really go down until after the draft…even in the draft they’re technically supposed to be draft-related, but you can always get around that by throwing in a 59th pick or something i guess.

experts out there probably know better than me though…someone come by and set me straight if i’m goofed up

"Whatever...I heard Bayless uses a pillowcase as a wallet." --TiH

by prezofdeath on May 21, 2009 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

thx for that

if brandon roy played for toronto he'd be brandon waaaaah

by R1cEbUrNeR on May 21, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Horse trading starts on draft day

Free agency signings don’t really occur until the new cap is announced, but deals can be agreed to in principle starting July 1.

by baduk on May 21, 2009 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

no good

tongues are INSIDE the mouth. – Elgin

VENTURA: It's drowning. It gives you the complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you -- I'll put it to you this way, you give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.

by 22baylor on May 21, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

*99.999999% of the time you have to trade value in order to get value.*

Damn you Celtics for ruining the 100% when you got KG for nothing!

by Zaig on May 21, 2009 9:34 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Al Jefferson was their second-best player at the time

Even the famous Pau Gasol trade wasn’t all that lopsided. Memphis got a ton of cap space for two expiring deals that they can put to use this year, Marc Gasol who fits their system costs less and is younger, first round draft picks, and Crittenton who they were able to trade again for their own draft pick back from the Wizards. And they tanked to get Mayo. All in all, I suppose the Grizzlies ownership is pretty happy about that deal, and LA is too.

by Norsktroll on May 21, 2009 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A better example might be the Harris - Kidd trade. ::Groan:: If Kidd leaves them this summer, now that was overpaid

Antoine Wright would be all that is left, the man who didn’t foul Anthony in a way that a ref called it. And they paid All-Star Harris, 2 first round picks, Ager, Diop who they idiotically bought back for the full MLE, another young guy, and the millions for Keith Van Horn for it.

by Norsktroll on May 21, 2009 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's hard to see how the Kidd deal worked for the Mavs

unless Cuban simply wanted to let his contract expire to get $21 million off the books this summer. They should be able to re-sign him for a reasonable two-year deal if they want him back.

Devin Harris’ deal was only $7.8 million this season (the final year of that contract), and it’s not like it was going to take Kidd money to re-sign him. Cuban had a nice core of Harris, Dirk Nowitzki, Josh Howard, and Jason Terry, and he replaced Harris with the slowing and aging Kidd at last year’s trade deadline thinking Kidd could get them a championship? They’ve been a worse team since. It’s hard to think the deal was done for anything more than cap reduction — the difference between what it will take to re-sign Kidd and what it would have taken to re-sign Harris, probably no more than $10 million.

by MiledAnimal on May 21, 2009 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

West was not in charge then

Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.

by jonestr on May 21, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have to disagree about the Gasol trade

Dave’s wording is that you have to give up value to get value. The Fakers gave up NOTHING. It just so happened that the big pile of nothing they gave up was inexpensive. So yeah, it worked out for both teams, but Dave’s maxim didn’t hold true there.

I think that’s why we see a lot of sergio+24th pick for the 3rd pick scenarios (ok maybe not that bad). We have some clever people around here who can build an argument for the other team that looks very similar to the Memphis side of the Gasol trade. Scenarios in which we give up very little value but the other team gets a nice money+future pick windfall.

"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"

by Magnum on May 21, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

there's always a winner and a looser

but there’s value on both sides of most trades

by StocktonNEP on May 21, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Rec

I heard a podcast with Donnie Walsh and he said if you go into every trade thinking you have to win it, instead of just making a fair trade, that you’ll never get any deals done in the NBA. He said there is nothing wrong with a fair trade.

"Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." - John Milton

by tominhawaii on May 21, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey Dave,

Shouldn’t this be a Fanshot? ;)

by parkinglotj on May 21, 2009 10:17 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

When Portland traded Telfair to Boston

We were able to get up to #7. But we also took on a massive contract and got rid of Ratliff’s expiring deal. (If I remember it right.)

Sacramento was hot for Bayless, but I can’t see anything else that we’d give up to make Portland an attractive partner. Outlaw? Maybe.

by parkinglotj on May 21, 2009 10:32 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Bayless/Outlaw/Pick for the 4 pick and cap relief?

But the only thing we’d want that high is Rubio. If Rubio truly did intend to not play for OKC/Memphis then we could always try and swap picks with OKC and throw in trade exception, Sergio, other picks or something. OKC wouldn’t be huge on this, but if they couldn’t get Rubio anyway they’d have no real choice and at least they’d get something extra out of it.

by Zaig on May 21, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd even be willing to wait 2 years for Rubio

until he no longer has a buyout. We waited for Rudy and I would then be on board for a short term fix at point.

by parkinglotj on May 21, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

in the Boston trade

we swapped bad contracts where we got the worse contract (3 yeara of Raef vs 2 year of Ratliff) to make up the difference between the #7 and Telfair. Also Boston wanted a PG and thought Telfair was better bet than anyone remaining at that point.

In regards to to the bikini analogy, at least Dave didn’t qualify the slip happening at an Oregon beach… those odds would be worse than getting struck by lightening while your being attacked by a shark.

by NWfan on May 21, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

trade?

T.J. Ford to portland
Blake/ Fry/ 2end rounder to pacers

Outlaw/ 1st pick or 2 2end to heat
Haslem to portland

we get a younger serviceable point guard with up side, pacers get great back up to jack, and a back-up PF which they need badly

portland gets a banger, miami gets a 3/4 who could start or provide the same role as here. dont know if outlaw would be enough could add the draft picks or sergio??

what do you think?

by Spudzwudz on May 21, 2009 10:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

As funny as it would be to see Blake/Jack together again

We DO NOT want Ford. He’s cancer and not even that good.

by Zaig on May 21, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

havent heard bad things about ford, but i haven't paid that much attention

any other real trade options for a point anyone see? charlotte might give up felton in a sign and trade having augustin, but prolly to expensive

by Spudzwudz on May 21, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

3 way Deal

This trade will involve the Grizzlies and the Knicks and cap space works as I put it through a trade machine.

Trade Travis Outlaw to the Grizzlies and Sergio Rodriguez to the Knicks. The trade machine doesn’t include picks, but send the 24th to the grizzlies and a second round to the knicks.

The Grizzlies trade away Darko Milic to the Knicks, and the 2nd pick to the Blazers (for Rubio to keep a spanish armada alive).

The Knicks would trade Chris Duhon to the Grizzlies and Jared Jeffries to the Blazers. While they will keep their pick at 8 as well.

by boomboom88 on May 21, 2009 11:50 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

forgot...

I would think this would free up space at the guards to allow Bayless to be more of the combo guard that he is and rubio to be the PG.

by boomboom88 on May 21, 2009 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trout, the 24th, and Duhon for Rubio and Milicic?

I know Chris Wallace has made some questionable moves before, but do you think he makes this trade?

I want to put points on your face.

by bonesbarry on May 21, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They also

free themselves of Darko Milicic’s $7M copse. Duhon had a solid year in NY (perhaps the D’Antoni effect), everybody knows they like Trout. We may have to throw in some cash, and maybe a 2nd rounder to MEM, but I think it’s respectable.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=oyz9pn

Sixty-percent of the time, it works one-hundred percent of the time.

by rudydrops3s on May 23, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds like this trade scenario proves Dave's point...

Trout, Duhon, and 24 for 2, Milic, and Jefferies? Why would Memphis possibly make that deal?

by ralphzillo on May 21, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

System

Memphis would do this to increase there bench depth. They really do not have a need with Rubio who is highly touted to be the first or second best player available. However, Memphis currently has no depth on there bench or a scorer and TO and Duhon add to that and add scoring with immediate impact to there team. Not to mention they would still get a late round pick in the first, which we have all seen that can be very worthwhile to either add to depth or can be a project that stays overseas for a season and then comes over. With the way there team was playing at the end of the year, they just need a backup 1 and a legitimate 6th man.

by boomboom88 on May 21, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You don't trade a potential superstar

for more bench depth. The NBA is a star-driven league, it’s not like the NFL where having 4 second rounders is more valuable than 2 first rounders. In general whether you win or lose in a series usually rests on whether your top 3 guys are better than the opponent’s top three guys. Therefore, if you have a chance to grab a guy who could be one of the best of those “top three” around the league, you take him, and deal with the rotation ramifications later.

by Royster on May 21, 2009 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The key is to find a diamond in the rough

This draft is probably going to come down to finding a good bench player, not a starter. There will be guys that get passed by, but end up as good players. Some that come to mind are Aaron Brooks, Tony Parker, Josh Howard and Carlos Boozer. Granted these are all starters, but the point is many, many teams blew it. With a weaker draft and better scouting, especially on foreign players, landing a starter isn’t likely. But the Blazers could still find a guy that slips into their grasp. Perhaps you also keep some of the second rounders and see what pops up- for no charge.

Unless the Blazers think they know enough about our young top tier talent and can find a better fit for the team with somebody else, I would be hesitant to trade for more youth by moving up in the draft a few positions.

by ralphzillo on May 21, 2009 11:51 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

RE value for value

I agree with Dave’s point that we have to look at potential trades from the other side. The following example has the added benefit of addressing the Oden apologists. I’ve heard multiple times on the board that people would still take Greg Oden over Kevin Durant. Do you think Sam Presti would take Oden for Durant? I’m not saying that Oden will never be a solid player, because I think he will, but I had the chance to watch Durant up close and personal in his one year in Seattle. He’s a special player and I’m fairly certain Oden will never reach that level. So that’s an example to keep in mind when offering potential trades. Sometimes we can get caught up in valuing our players higher than their actual value because of the sentimental or whatever other kind of attachment we feel towards them as members of the team we follow.

I want to put points on your face.

by bonesbarry on May 21, 2009 11:52 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

true...

However, I also believe that KP had character as a huge value when evaluating players. That being said I would think that Oden’s persona through the process was very open compared to Durant’s. More of a personality that the team needed.

by boomboom88 on May 21, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

comparing personalities

I agree that Greg was more open and friendly pre-draft, but Durant’s a good kid too. In his rookie year there was a story about Durant inviting neighborhood kids to come over and hang out and play video games on a regular basis. While admittedly anecdotal, that doesn’t sound like the kind of player that will divide a team.

I want to put points on your face.

by bonesbarry on May 21, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dave discounts the value buying picks from teams

In this economy, there may be several teams that would be willing to part with a mid-teen pick for $3million in cold hard cash.

by tingeyga on May 21, 2009 12:21 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Has there ever been a pick sold lower than 20?

That number is also funny because I heard an interview with Chad Buchanan who said there are only about 20 sure picks in this draft. I think getting into the teens will be harder than most people think.

"Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." - John Milton

by tominhawaii on May 21, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here Me Out I think this works

Trade Sergio to Orlando for Anthony Johnson and a 2010 second round pick

Let Frye, Ruffin, Randolf, Raef Walk

Sign Joe Smith via FA

Use Outlaw and #24 to Toronto for Kris Humphries and # 9 (Draft Dejuan Blair)

It seems that everyone's real problem is they just don't drink enough coffee. They lose their edge, lose track of their priorities, and end up sleeping a third of their life away.

by jlarose78 on May 21, 2009 1:02 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

for the record

I expect a trade for Kirk and signing Felipe Reyes to be the major roster changes

by southern oregon on May 21, 2009 1:04 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Dave, when can we expect to see your entire collection

of handy metaphors and similes published? At least consider doing a calendar.

by CatMan2 on May 21, 2009 1:58 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I predict all of Dave's rules, guidelines and suggestions regarding trade proposals ....

… getting violated repeatedly in the coming weeks.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on May 26, 2009 7:23 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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