Conley or Bayless?
by HurraKane212 on May 20, 2009 8:40 PM PDT
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PrintI wish this could be a fanshot, however fanshots don't have a poll option.
I'd like to get the temperature of BE on the young prospect PG debate, I feel a vocal minority are dominating the conversation (perhaps on both sides). So get involved! Vote for which PG is best for the Blazers going forward. Feel free to suggest other PG's not yet drafted or on their rookie contracts. Try to keep in mind what we might have to give up to get the PG of choice though.
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Tough Call
I think you’d have to say at this point Conley has proven more, he’s probably just as quick as Bayless, and he’s definitely more of a pass-first “true” point guard than Jerryd.
I like Jerryd’s potential, but at this point I’d take Conley, who I think is going to end up a top ten point guard in a couple more years … it doesn’t hurt that his childhood friend and long time teammate is Greg.
As for the “other” option, I’m not sure what to say, because none of know who is truly going to be available (even with all of the chatter about the usual suspects of Miller, Kidd, Hinrich, etc.)
If you want to compare Conley Jr and Bayless
you shouldn’t have put “Other” in the options.
Conley Jr. right now, and for the foreseeable future is the much better point guard. He’d be a much better fit at point guard on this particular team, and he’s already on the verge of turning the corner the way Devin Harris did last year. He’s not deficient in any part of his game. He’s a very good passer, a really smart player, a good player at penetrating, his 3 point shot at 21 years old is already elite in the NBA, and he’s very good at sticking with quicker point guards.
by as11osu on May 20, 2009 8:46 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
It's easily Conley until Bayless proves something.
I am a Bayless supporter, but I wouldn’t even think twice about my choice right now. When Bayless gets consistent time then it might be a better question to ask.
That's why the question is "going forward'
not just “right now” because Conley definitely had a better season than Bayless.
Come on you gotta listen unto me,
lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be. ~Johnny Cash
by HurraKane212 on May 20, 2009 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions
And it's Conley for going forward.
It’s pretty difficult to choose Bayless because nobody really knows how he’ll turn out. Conley has played well in consistent amounts.
Bayless had a nice game now and then, and a good stretch when Blake was out. He’s had plenty of complete stinkers though (as did Conley).
It’s easy to pick Conley for going forward because he’s more proven than Bayless. Bayless has potential but so does Conley, and with Conley being already farther along it makes it pretty easy to choose him. It’s too hard to gauge Jerryd’s future compared to Mike’s.
It would be one thing if Jerryd was showing tons of promise and was being compared to an older vet player, but neither of those are the case.
Here is a RealGM thread comparing the two in terms of measurements, college, and rookie year.
Basically Bayless wins the measurements due to superior speed and length despite his wingspan knock, Conley wins college and rookie year (where Bayless of course played a limited role).
The realGM physical assessment is a little suspect
basically using the lane agility and weight as the sole deciders (Conley’s also bulked up 5 pounds, according to BBR), when Conley’s leaping measurements were superior to Jerryd’s. Obviously, vertical isn’t the sole decider, but considering it’s the physical stat most often cited with regards to NBA players, I’m not sure how they’d leave that off.
Also, that MCJ
had more bench reps despite the longer arms is probably a little better indicator of strength than just weight alone.
I think between those 2
It would be Bayless. Conley has had a better season but Bayless should be better down the road. But i like the idea of signing Andre Miller and trading Blake and Bayless away. Possible to move higher in the draft this season or get a 1st rounder next season. I like Sherron Collins in next years draft. We can move into the lottery with our 2nd round picks also. Maybe move Trout along the way.
That's important
But I want to know which point guard is going to be able to play with Brandon, LMA and Greg … if I have to see one more season of Brandon working his butt off to get every point he scores, and LMA having to grind in the post to get his and Greg never touching the ball off of pick and rolls I think I’m going to cry.
With Conley’s 40% outside shooting I think he can coexist with Brandon just fine, knocking down outside shots on kick-outs when Brandon is handling the ball as the point guard in the fourth quarter.
Assuming it would take at least Travis, Bayless, picks, and cash to get Conley (maybe taking back a bad contract too?) there’s still a lot to like about an 9 man rotation of:
Conley/Blake
Roy/Rudy
Batum/Webster
LMA
Greg/Joel
and possibly a fourth quarter rotation of:
Conley
Rudy
Roy
LMA
Greg
We already know that Conley can play with Greg, don't we?
I remember that before Greg and Conley were drafted, Greg said something like, “Toghether we just don’t lose!”
So maybe Conley can bring out the most in Greg in a way that Bayless cannot. Conley might be able to get in Greg’s face or encourage him in a way that really steps up Greg’s game. It’s worth thinking about.
So don't play Oden against Atlanta and Chicago
SIMPLE!
My avatar is 3 years into the future for sure...
PG of the Week Polls
A year ago was Blake.
6 months ago was Bayless.
Last week was Hinrich.
This week is Conley.
Next week will be……..Other!
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
I wish
the poll actually listed all our current PGs, etc. instead of just other
Brandon Roy, 'nuff said.
I voted Other
since neither one of these youngsters looks ready for prime time, and I want to contend for a championship next season. – Elgin
VENTURA: It's drowning. It gives you the complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you -- I'll put it to you this way, you give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.
Feels like half the starting PGs in the NBA have been considered future Blazer PGs
I want some feelers for Beno Udrih. Look at this dude breaking Kobe’s ankle.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
he should get some ankle insurance.
"Whatever...I heard Bayless uses a pillowcase as a wallet." --TiH
by prezofdeath on May 20, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions
It seems to me that Kobe tried to get an offensive foul once he saw Udrih´s arm going at him.
"They didn't know it was impossible, so they did it"
That's terrible.
He clearly pushed Kobe.
"What is the Soup Du Jour?"
"It's the Soup of the Day."
"Mmmm. That sounds good. I'll have that."
And that means
a flagrant 2. Easy call.
"What is the Soup Du Jour?"
"It's the Soup of the Day."
"Mmmm. That sounds good. I'll have that."
I would still take Hinrich over another year of Blakey as the starter
But it’s worth discussing since Conley is potentially becoming available and he or Bayless likely would be stuck behind a veteran, so do you keep both to battle it out or is Bayless required to get Conley anyway?
Other. Kind of.
I thought of doing this as a new fanpost, but with so much talk going on already, I might as well post it here.
Portland’s Problems so far have been:
• Poor players at the PG spot
• Not enough playing time for Rudy
• Rudy’s Spanish buddy is asking to be traded
• Oden is too down on himself and needs a friend
• Logjam at the SF
• Playing too slow
• Need a banger backup PF
With Memphis getting the #2 pick in the draft, people have had the idea that we can solve some of these problems via a trade for either Rubio or Conley. That’s nice, and it may solve some of our problems, but it doesn’t solve them all.
What I propose solves all of our problems. Acquire both Rubio and Conley. That would solve our Rudy problem, our Oden problem and our PG problem. Don’t bother to renew Blake’s contract, ship out Sergio for a second round pick (or better if we can), and Bayless can remain plastered on the end of the bench as emergency backup (if he was good enough, he would earn playing time).
But wait a minute, you say. First, that doesn’t solve all of our problems, and second, there’s no way Memphis would do that. Have no fear. Memphis is sure to say yes, and doing this will alleviate the rest of our problems.
Trade Brandon Roy.
There’s no way Memphis turns this down. Salaries match up. Rudy gets a new member of the Spanish Armada. Oden gets his pal to lift his spirits. We get two good PGs. We get rid of the one player who always slows us down, even on the break. It solves our SF crunch. Rudy gets the playing time he deserves. And we retain our #24 pick to pick up that low-post banger we need.
We would have as our lineup:
PG: Rubio (24 min.)/Conley (24 min.) [Or whoever wins the spot.]
SG: Rudy (38 min.)/Webster (10 min.)
SF: Batum (28 min.)/Webster (5 min.)/Outlaw (15 min.)
PF: Aldridge (36 min.)/Pick #24 (7 min.)/Outlaw (5 min.)
C: Oden (24 min.)/Przybilla (24 min.)
We would have nothing to complain about anymore. Why hasn’t anyone thought of this? It’s not the first time our "star" player has held us back from greatness. Addition by subtraction! Multiplication by division! Kevin Pritchard cannot fail! If you don’t agree with me, I will respond to all of your posts until you either give up, or see it my way!
Of all the things that can be expressed in the printed word – love, hate, fear, joy – true humor is the one that is the most difficult of all. Sarcasm, for example, is an art of delicate subtlety. Yet too many people wield it as a bulldozer – loud, smelly, ugly, and destructive – and think they are being funny.
by T Darkstar on May 20, 2009 9:11 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
Can't tell if you are serious...
…but that’s a lot of eggs in the Rudy basket, if you ask me. You want to give up a top 4 guard in the league, who is still, IMO, on the upswing to bring in two guys who really haven’t proven anything substantial in the NBA and promote Rudy, who, as much as I love him, seems a little one-dimensional at this point.
So much of what we do centers around Brandon and his skill set (inside-out game), and he wins us a ton of games. I am not sure that even a roster as talent laden as the one you proposed gets us to even 54 wins again, because we lose a proven winner with a killer instinct. I love wacky trade ideas, but not this one.
Or maybe you were joking.
LOL! Very nice. You got people to bite too. Extra points. Rec'd.
by dario argento on May 20, 2009 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions
thank you for voicing what i was too afraid to say
"Whatever...I heard Bayless uses a pillowcase as a wallet." --TiH
by prezofdeath on May 20, 2009 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions
You didn't address the glaring weakness
for a bruising PF like Milsap. I’m very unimpressed. ;)
by parkinglotj on May 20, 2009 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Mike Conley Jr just went off after the all star break...
his stats…
16 PPG, 6 APG, 4 RPG, 2 SPG, 2 TOPG, 46% FG, 44% 3PT, 84% FT
Those are the stats of a 21 year old point guard playing in his second year in the league. He’s ready to make the next leap. He fits our window, no waiting around for anything to develop. The relationship with Greg, although some don’t want to mention it, can only be a positive IMO. His ability to create better angles with his speed allow him better passing lanes than the basic ones we had to deal with with Blake. Conley Jr. is capable of throwing good lob passes to all of our bigs and Batum when he’s in there. He provides solid defense, and his feet are quick enough to at least mitigate a guy like Paul, Parker or Brooks’ speed. His contract is pretty nice, and he’s as good a kid as you could want here.
Don’t wait around for it to happen, because this might be our last best chance to get the point guard of the future here. You don’t put all your eggs for a PG future into a gamble as big a one as Bayless is right now. Go out, make your play for the surefire guy with plenty of upside that fits our window and our team, but is already good to go and doesn’t need all that time being groomed.
We might want to note that his team went 9-21 in this period
I like Conley a lot and I don’t say he didn’t improve since his percentages also went up a lot over the year, just to put it in context. Jumps on bad teams are easier than on good teams, especially in scoring. It’s similar with Westbrook vs. Bayless.
Jumps in scoring are easier in bad teams,
but jumps in shooting percentage are just as difficult, if not more difficult on bad teams. Playing in Portland, Conley would get a lot more open looks, compared to Memphis. Teams don’t to double anyone on Memphis nearly as much as teams do Roy and Aldridge (even Oden gets doubled).
I agree with you
but it wasn’t only an increase in raw numbers, which I would’ve cared exactly zero about, it was a drastic increase in efficiency. 16 points on these percentages 46/44/84… that’s Mo Williams, Chauncey Billups, Mike Bibby good offensively, and again, he’s just 21. He also didn’t have the ball in his hands the whole time to get that total, which would be perfect in a transition here. He’s a really good spot shooter, and if you close out too hard on him, unlike Blake, he can make you pay. Also, once he gets inside, if you come after him with a big, that’ll leave Aldridge or Oden open up top for a lob or a putback. I like the problems he’d cause defenses. And most of the time Roy or eventually Oden should be able to get him the ball in that position a lot. We’d be scoring the ball at even greater efficiency with him here. I don’t think Bayless brings this set of skills which is why, I don’t see him as the same quality fit with our starters.
At the same time
it’s harder to get assists and shoot high percentages on bad teams. The fact that his season total usage rating remained pretty close to Blake’s and he had a solid TS% are good signs to me. It’s not like he was Al Thornton jacking up terrible shot after terrible shot for the clips.
Conley is a point guard who averaged 15-6, battling back from a rough rookie year. He is already a good point guard.
Bayless is a guard who struggled to get off the bench, and isn’t a known quantity.
Right now, I take the guy who has produced.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
15-6 post all-star break.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
Yeah post all-star break he was really good
Helped me win a fantasy basketball championship, which is another positive.
This really assumes a 0 or 1 situation
One of the hardest things here is that if you’re not for something, you’re automatically against it.
Middle ground is a tough thing to talk about here.
I fall in the middle here. Call it “it’s too soon to tell, so it’s all a guess”, or “it’ll turn out fine with either of them, we just need stuff to talk about though”.
There’s also the “neither of them are the answer”, but I figure that’s covered with the option for “other”.
Nothin’ personal. The choices in the poll leave a lot of ground not covered.
It'd be really great to have another season of evidence to make a decision
but that’s not how it works. You either bought or didn’t buy Devin Harris at the time. Now you don’t have that chance anymore. The second after Rubio is announced as Memphis’s pick Conley Jr will be available for a month or two. By the time the season starts most likely, he’ll be the starter on a different team, and we won’t have that chance anymore. You can hurt your team by sitting on your hands and doing nothing. It seemingly happened with Harris, and I thought again with Conley Jr last year, but this lottery has given KP a reprieve IMO, and I sure hope he uses it.
You either bought or didn’t buy Devin Harris at the time. Now you don’t have that chance anymore.
Sure but that goes both ways. We nearly signed Trenton Hassell for 6 years, 27 million in 2004. He’d still be on the team now.
For every “we should have grabbed him!”, there’s another “wow did we dodge a bullet there”. We just tend to forget those. And in this situation, like you said, we won’t know until it’s too late. So arguing Bayless vs Conley, with little middle ground, is just creating a 0 vs 1 situation and dividing everyone… let KP make the call and let’s hope he sees the right stuff.
So I go back to my original point: It’s very possible they’ll both turn out great. But there’s no voting option for that. The vote choices are 0, 1, or neither.
sorry bout that
I tried to keep it focused, but leave a valve for other thoughts. Can you give me an idea or two for how to make it better?
Come on you gotta listen unto me,
lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be. ~Johnny Cash
by HurraKane212 on May 21, 2009 7:56 AM PDT up reply actions
It's not a big deal, just had one of those moments where I was like "There's no option for me"
The two options I thought were most worthwhile but missing were “I like/want both”, and “I don’t know”, which can be useful to show how many fans feel it’s too close to call.
Perhaps a set of options like:
- I prefer Bayless
- I prefer Conley
- I’d prefer neither
- I think either one is fine (or ‘I want both’)
- I don’t know
I’m betting I also missed an option here. Like “I’d prefer one of these guys, but only as a backup and I still want Hinrich” or something. So adding ‘other’ is still a good idea.
Just thinking out loud though, I know you placed ‘other’ in the original poll to cover other thoughts, but I’m partial to having a poll as inclusive as possible. It makes it easier learn the group’s opinions in the results… for example, right now, people can like both Bayless and Conley, but are actually choosing ‘other’ instead of getting that thought captured in the poll.
Major false dichotomy here.
I want both (not that I’d be opposed to trading Bayless). Neither Conley nor Bayless is a sure thing (and they both have higher ceiling than Blake/Sergio), let them fight it out for minutes.
i wish all u bayless fan.boys wuld put down your fanboy pom*poms.we need sum real ballers.and for all of u fanboys.dont hate becuz I dont use the pom*poms and told kp to get us some real ballers.book it!
RUDY > MJ
by myemic23 on May 20, 2009 9:38 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
yeah we need real ballers on this team.not gingerbread softies.roy needs ballers around him to get his championship.not little sissies like conley.and bayless.all you bayless fanboys think he is the second coming.but kp and brandon know.
kp will go out and get some real ballers book it.
by dario argento on May 20, 2009 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
gingerbread
Fatty’s flavor of the month – Elgin
VENTURA: It's drowning. It gives you the complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you -- I'll put it to you this way, you give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.
Conley vs. Hinrich, not Bayless
I’m confused — why aren’t we weighing the options for our STARTING PG? It’s pretty clear Bayless is not ready, that either Hinrich or Conley would be an upgrade over Blake and that both would cost about the same (Travis + PG + something). If we can keep Bayless around to get some seasoning as a backup, great, but let’s focus on the starter.
Someone please start a new poll weighing the available PG alternatives… Conley vs. Hinrich vs. Miller vs. ???
I’m currently rewatching the most recent Memphis-Portland game to get a fresh impression… Focusing on Conley, his pick and roll defense has been good so far. He has a pretty strong base. Brandon just tried to post him up and he did a good job standing his ground.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
Wasn't that his 0-11 game?
probably no good offensive news about him to come from that one.
he just nailed a shot… I don’t think he went 0-11.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m actually pleasantly surprised by his team defense. He’s in the right place most of the time. He’s also ruined a few picks pretty well.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions
he’s still a little skinny.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Second-year player. No surprise
It’s hard for them to bulk up no matter how hard they try.
Wait ’til they hit 25 and their metabolism slows. Then the bulk will hit. :)
I’m very impressed by his team defense… seems to have a good idea of where to be on defense… fought through some picks… I think Nate would like him.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
he just had a great defensive possession, but then ruined it by leaving Steve.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions
pretty ugly half… channing just attempted a 1-on-3 post move, drew the improbable foul… and the crowd goes “yawn.”
I’ve come away more impressed with Conley’s defense than his offense. His offense is a work in progress… he is overdribbling. His defense looks more polished.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions
He has a big third quarter
but it looks like Memphis’s bigs decided to stop playing defense on LA and Przybila. Interested to hear what actually happened, though.
I’m a basketball nerd… I like rewatching the entire game, focusing on one player, and dissecting every move.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, I just pulled up the gameflow for that game to see what happened
I assume we’re talking about April 7th?
yes.
Fearthesword.com: "There is no doubt that the long layoff, combined with the ease of the first two rounds had the Cavaliers a bit tired in the 4th quarter."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Conley has done a good job of getting switches… he just hit a shot over LMA.
Fearthesword.com: "There is no doubt that the long layoff, combined with the ease of the first two rounds had the Cavaliers a bit tired in the 4th quarter."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions
led the break, dished to Mayo for dunk.
Fearthesword.com: "There is no doubt that the long layoff, combined with the ease of the first two rounds had the Cavaliers a bit tired in the 4th quarter."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions
WOW. jumps sky-high and tips an entry pass. Steals.
Fearthesword.com: "There is no doubt that the long layoff, combined with the ease of the first two rounds had the Cavaliers a bit tired in the 4th quarter."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions
his defense really reminds me of Rafer Alston. That’s a good thing.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I have something bad to say, but first, I appreciate the tape review.
I wonder if I still have the game on PVR too now. But first, the bad thing to say:
I think Nate would like him.
I sincerely hope KP does not choose player acquisitions based on who Nate would like to play. I mean, of course Nate needs input into player selections. But I hope KP chooses based on talent and need, regardless of it being a Nate guy. I’m not even convinced that if we had nothing but “Nate guys” (realistic guys, not all LBJ’s or something), that it would really be a championship team.
It also means Nate is a single point of failure. If Nate bolts to another team (again), we’re left with “Nate guys” and no Nate. Then KP has to consider a Nate clone, which probably isn’t the best way to go either at that point, since he’d be Nate without the interpersonal relationships that helped his coaching.
I’d much rather see KP go for the players who fit what he sees as the long term solution for the organization, and tell Nate what he expects. Which is how I think he’s running it now, so yay KP.
If a player is talented, KP will expect Nate to play him, irrespective of whether that player is Nate’s style. The day we can confirm that Nate isn’t playing a talented player because he’s not a “Nate guy” would probably be the same day that Pritchard pencils in the schedule for that Summer’s coaching interviews.
Anyway, back to your commentary, I’m reading along. It’s an interesting read.
I think he does.
Nate was begging for more veterans in 2007-2008, but KP just stuck with the game plan. I doubt he was super pumped when they moved Jack.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on May 20, 2009 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it's beyond just Bayless playing time
I’d bet that the last three years KP has disagreed with PT distribution among our young PGs. Remember the first thing he did after taking over as interim coach was to start Telfair over NVE. This year is the first year since Nate’s been here that winning has been the most important thing for the season rather than player development, but Sergio and Jack didn’t have much chance to play the point last year, which was our last real chance to throw a PG to the wolves with no real consequences.
Worst idea ever.
Remember the first thing he did after taking over as interim coach was to start Telfair over NVE.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on May 20, 2009 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Hits close to the heart for you, no doubt
but in a season where we had nothing to gain (especially by that point), I’m always for throwing a young guy into the fire and letting him work his way through it. I was in favor of Sergio playing more last season, and I would’ve liked to see at least one of Sergio or Bayless (preferably both) play more this season, too, but not at the expense of missing the playoffs.
I'm just joking.
He was terrible in Portland.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on May 20, 2009 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I feel the opposite mostly
It would be foolish to pick up or trade for a player that wouldn’t fit into the team’s system, which right now is dictated by………..Nate. It has to be good fit both ways, talent wise and playing style. Look at SA, their players are mostly not the best, outside of their big 3, but they fit the system. Or how about Phoenix, as an even better example? You have to match your players to your system/head coach.
There are plenty of coaches in this league that could
find better uses of our talent as it is right now. If Nate can’t get with the times and adjust his schemes that’s on him, and that’s when its his time to go. Hopefully Nate will be a more flexible coach next year in terms of what different schemes he uses. Clearly he got locked into one versus the Rockets and Rick just destroyed him. Made him look like an amateur our there.
Overstate much?
I love how you guys give Nate all the blame and none of the credit for what has been accomplished over the last three years in terms of wins and player development.
I didn’t always agree with Nate’s choices, but a little objectivity wouldn’t hurt.
by upper left corner on May 21, 2009 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions
I dunno, it can work both ways
When Brown left the Pistons, they were filled with “Brown guys” (I wish that didn’t sound racist), but Flip was most decidedly un-Brown-like. That didn’t stop them from going to the finals the next year and making the next 4 straight conference finals or so.
Similarly, Avery Johnson (shudder) took over a roster of Nelson guys and they managed to make the finals the next year (no thanks to Avery, though). So it’s not really a necessity to have a following coach match styles with the preceding one. JVG and Adelman are a good example, although Morey’s almost completely overhauled that team since Rick got there.
My issue with this approach is that I think there are talented players out there who aren’t necessarily “Nate guys” who I don’t think should be ruled out. Not that they aren’t hard workers, just maybe not as neurotic with not turning the ball over. I’m not saying we should bring in Monta Ellis or something, just that guys like him shouldn’t be ruled out solely on that basis.
With Brown, though
he bolted for NY that summer. I was mistaken originally. Still, Detroit had the best record in the east 2 out of 3 years with Flip, and the best record in the league his first year. The point being that he did relatively well with guys who were most definitely not “Flip guys”
I have to find a way to reply without using the description of Larry Brown's leftover players.
Let’s see if I can get through this one. Ok.
I’d argue if you build a team around players Larry Brown likes, and he leaves, his guys (hah! got around it!) would be a better overall team under a different coach than the leftover players under most other coaches.
I agree that certain coaches are better suited for leftovers
specifically defensive “taskmaster” coaches since players tend to keep that intensity once they see how effective it is, they just tire of chafing under it. Skiles has left some good teams in other coaches hands, and I doubt Adelman would have had as much success with Houston if it hadn’t have been JVG coaching there before him.
At the same time, you have opposite situations like Nelson in Dallas leaving and them improving, although the ultimate example of this blowing up in a franchise’s face has to be this year’s Phoenix Suns. Terry Porter was just disastrous coaching D’Antoni guys.
Agreed across the board.
I wonder how good a coach Terry would be in a better situation. I feel like we have no idea how good he is (or isn’t)
Porter was pretty underwhelming in Milwaukee
taking over for George Karl, although that team was pretty bad, it improved 10 wins the year after he got fired (of course they also added Bogut that year).
Looking back, though, I forgot how utterly mediocre that team was, being built around a nucleus of TJ Ford, Michael Redd, and Desmond Mason.
Not SVG
More like Tom Thibodeu
Offseason:
Trade For Mike Conley Jr
Sign Antonio McDyess & Othello Hunter
Draft Kevin Seraphin/Rodrigue Beaubois(Eurostash)
by TheGreatDane17 on May 21, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
my bad, thought Brown left after the title
not the finals loss to SA
I didn’t mean it in that light. It was more in the context of KP making the move and Nate being pleasantly surprised when he sees the skinny kid fighting through screens.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions
When I wrote the comment, I envisioned a smile creeping on Nate’s face as Conley makes a good defensive play. Not Nate picking players or anything like that.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I really got off onto a tangent based on the "Nate's guy" quote...
I was pretty sure you actually meant it as you said here. But for some reason, I’d read the words “Nate’s guy” enough times that I couldn’t resist talking about it finally. :)
It definitely wasn’t meant as a disagreement with you directly. Just an excuse to vent.
I do agree. Nate isn’t the talent evaluator. That’s Pritchard.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry if it sounded like I was venting at you btw
Not my intent. I’d been meaning to vent on that for a while now.
Not at all.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Okay Think about this.
Nate Does not really like Small Guards, Nate Does not really like playing New Guys unless they seriously impress him or he has to which means if we got Conley I would expect to see Blake as our starting PG for another season. Now if we kept Bayless he may have the opportunity to move into the starting spot next season if he plays well enough. Honestly if everyone is looking for an immediate upgrade at the PG spot the only real answer is to get a vet FA that is easily better then Blake
It seems that everyone's real problem is they just don't drink enough coffee. They lose their edge, lose track of their priorities, and end up sleeping a third of their life away.
They are all really different players.
Conley seems like the most balanced of the three. Blake is a spot up shooter and Bayless drives half the time, but I guess we haven’t really seen his mid-range game.
It’s tough, but I think the safe choice is Conley.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on May 20, 2009 10:09 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
that graph is so ridiculous
just Blake and Bayless being almost perfectly mirrored around Conley. Interesting, though.
Rec.
wow. Crazy how symmetrical that is.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I didn't even notice that.
I guess Bayless is the anti-Blake.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on May 20, 2009 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
nice graph. Very clear.
Pritchard: "Just because we aren't at the lottery doesn't mean we won't be in the lottery."
by Cablinasian on May 20, 2009 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions
In time you'd hope your guy becomes a 40/30/40 guy
Inside shots and 3 point shots aplenty from your point guard. We’ve got LMA and Roy to hit those mid range shots.
I don't think it matters.
Chris Paul is 16/57/23.
If you have a good mid-range game you should use it.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on May 20, 2009 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions
You can't have all your players at the same spots...
that’s part of the reason I like Bass so much. He’s got his spots and he’s got a great mid range came for when LMA and Roy are on the bench. It would be sorely needed because that isn’t Rudy’s specialty, and you know you’re not threatening anyone with Przybilla. That way you’re not stuck hoping Bayless gets one. Bass as the mid range guy with Webster attacking both areas and Rudy running circles around everyone getting open from three.
Conley.
Offseason:
Trade For Mike Conley Jr
Sign Antonio McDyess & Othello Hunter
Draft Kevin Seraphin/Rodrigue Beaubois(Eurostash)
by TheGreatDane17 on May 20, 2009 10:53 PM PDT reply actions
I am not really that enthusiastic about Conley
But I would certainly take him over Bayless. Bayless’s rookie year was terrible, so I don’t have much confidence in him becoming the PG of the future.
Conley's rookie year was also terrible.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on May 21, 2009 12:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Agree to disagree.
I would list reasons, but I’m sure you’ve already heard a million arguments about why you can’t judge Bayless on his garbage time stats.
I will reserve judgment on Bayless until he’s actually in the rotation on an NBA team.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on May 21, 2009 1:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Other
Gilbert Arenas
"Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." - John Milton
by tominhawaii on May 21, 2009 5:48 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Tom likes spending money. He thinks it's fun.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
especially other people's money!
VENTURA: It's drowning. It gives you the complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you -- I'll put it to you this way, you give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.
One the Blazers own, one would cost them Travis Outlaw and Bayless...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
I like Conley, but don't want to trade Bayless to get him
Seems like a false choice. If Memphis is going to draft Rubio, they may prefer a solid veteran as a back-up or short term starter to having another high potential but unproven player like Bayless.
If I am Portland, I do not want to trade a player like Bayless with very high potential but little track record on the floor. If you trade him now, you are not going to get anywhere near full value because he hasn’t shown enough. If you trade him and he realizes his potential you are going to regret it for at least a decade. Find out what you have before you give him away. Players with Bayless combination of speed, strength, athleticism, and drive are a very rare commodity.
If you can get Conley, without giving up Bayless, I am all for it. It gives you a guy who is probably better than Blake in the short run. Probably improves Oden’s happiness, and still allows you to play Bayless as the back-up. If Bayless doesn’t pan out as a PG you can decide whether or not to keep him as a combo or a small energetic 2 guard, or you can trade him without regret. If Bayless blows up, you now have two talented young PGs with different body types for different match-ups.
by upper left corner on May 21, 2009 11:14 AM PDT reply actions
Or they want a scorer at the 1 behind Rubio.
If it hinges on him “making the deal”, he will be gone.
Offseason:
Trade For Mike Conley Jr
Sign Antonio McDyess & Othello Hunter
Draft Kevin Seraphin/Rodrigue Beaubois(Eurostash)
by TheGreatDane17 on May 21, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Given your antipathy to Bayless' game......
……your opinion is no surprise. I’m not sure KP shares your view, KP singled out Martell and Bayless as the two guys he expects to make the biggest improvement over the summer.
by upper left corner on May 21, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
I like conley more
but what about having them both on the team. And if they were on the court together bayless could play SG.
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