Upgrading at the point guard position
I don't think our small forward issues are serious, since we're still not sure what we have with Martell coming back from injury, Batum clearly being a promising prospect, and with Outlaw capable of playing minutes at the small forward position as well. Add to that Rudy and Roy's ability to play spot minutes in a pinch, and we'll end up with something that works at the SF with personnel already on the roster
So like 10,000 other posts, this is going to address the point guard position. Sergio has not proven to be a good fit here. He's not a good enough defender, and he never will be. The rest is just window dressing - the shooting, etc could conceivably be improved, but he just doesn't have chops defensively to be successful in Nate's system. Steve Blake is great for what he gives you - consistency and a facilitator's mindset. He'll be a serviceable backup down the road.
Jerryd Bayless is a combo guard who can create off the dribble, but doesn't have the court vision to turn that creativity into dimes. This year wasn't an anomaly, I think down the line we'll come to realize KP gave Nate a player who didn't fit a need in the Blazers system. Perhaps he was thinking he'd eventually fill Jarrett Jack's role as an penetrating energy guy off the bench. And I do think Bayless was the best player available to the Blazers from where they were picking in that draft. But I don't think he's got a place on this team as currently composed. He is not a point guard (he wasn't one in college, either), and you don't learn to be a point guard in the NBA if you're not a point guard before you get there.
So we have a starting point guard who's a championship team backup point guard, and two backup point guards who aren't well-suited to this team's needs. What to do?
Well, we've all heard the old saw about moving Brandon Roy to the point guard position. This would be making a commitment to half-court basketball all the time, Brandon does not look to push the ball when it's in his hands, he is a deliberate court general when he has the ball. Blake is a little better, but both of them are not easy fast break point facilitators. Coach McMillan would be ok with the slow pace, he hates turnovers in transition more than he loves uncontested layups. The problem with this idea is that Brandon clearly isn't interested, in part because constant ball-handling responsibilities wear him out. If this was ever going to happen, it would have already happened, as McMillan has stated to the press he'd be trying Roy at PG, and the experiment has only been given brief trials over three years, and never sustained.
Similarly, Rudy Fernandez will not play point guard. It might work if the Blazers ran a triangle-like offense predicated on interchangeability and movement, but the point does have responsibilities for starting and resetting the Blazers offense, and Rudy is better passing the ball off the swing than he is when he's bringing it up, and his handle isn't point guard quality.
We could pick up a veteran point guard. I like Andre Miller, though I sympathize with those who believe he might be about to fall off the age-related productivity cliff and worry about his poor lifetime outside shooting percentage. He is a point guard who can penetrate and make plays, stick to his man on defense (though he's not a top tier defensive player), and fit very well into the Blazers locker room. So to my mind, he'd be one option, though I think there's a good chance he re-signs with Philadelphia.
In terms of free agents, Jason Kidd is not interested in playing for Portland, he's said so himself (through his agent). Ramon Sessions got a long look from the Blazers brass when they brought him in for pre-draft workouts a couple years ago and they decided he was not what they needed. I'd be surprised if their opinion has changed. Mike Bibby is a terrible defensive point guard. Nate McMillan would not be on board with signing him, and I think he'd be right to resist that option.
If Andre Miller is not available or the Blazers decide he's too expensive or too risky, what then are the best options available through the draft or trades? The Blazers will draft in the 24th spot this year in the first round, and Darren Collison from UCLA, Curtis Jerrells from Baylor, Tony Douglas from FSU, AJ Price from Uconn, Tyrese Rice from Boston College, and a few second tier foreign point guards are all still projected to be on the board. Unfortunately, the reason these players are most likely to still be on the board is because it's far from clear they will be successful in the NBA, none of them are likely going to be able to step in anytime soon to help guide a contending NBA team.
That leaves the Blazers in a position where they either need to trade up in the draft or try and pry a quality point guard off another team with players and picks. While Orlando has multiple starting point guards, I think after they (sadly) lose the Boston series, Rafer Alston is the one they let go, and we don't want him. I'm not a Baron Davis or Gilbert Arenas fan in terms of their fit with Portland, and Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Tony Parker, Derrick Rose, Devin Harris, Chauncey Billups, Rodney Stuckey, Rajon Rondo, Russell Westbrook, Jose Calderon, Mike Conley, and DJ Augustin will all be too expensive in terms of what we'd need to give up to get them - if the teams would even entertain trade talks; for many of these guys, they wouldn't. Steve Nash is getting long in the tooth and is a poor defender.
The Bobcats might part with (or not match an offer sheet to) Felton, but his shooting numbers make Andre Miller look good. Chris Duhon could be available, but it's unclear he's much of an upgrade from Steve Blake. I've seen Nate Robinson's name mentioned here but he's not a point guard. I've also seen a lot of talk about Kirk Hinrich, but it's clear to me that the series with the Celtics proved that he has a lot of value to the Bulls as both a backup point guard and a two guard, and with Gordon's uncertain future with the team they're not going to trade him for a backup point guard or two and small forward (where they've got both Luol Deng and Salmons).
There are a few players on the draft board above where the Blazers pick who might fit the team's need for a quick, steady, creative point guard who can really defend. Ricky Rubio could be a good fit, but since he's a lock for the first two picks, getting him would almost certainly require excessive concessions, something more than just taking on a bad contract and moving a non-core player or two. Depending on how the draft falls out, though, either or both of Ty Lawson and Brandon Jennings may be obtainable for the right price. They're lottery picks, but probably not high enough in the lottery for the picking team to dismiss trading them out of hand.
Each of them has their issues. Lawson has been hurt, but nothing serious that would raise long-term durability worries (unlike, say, Brandon Roy's knees). His three years of collegiate experience at a top tier school would make him the more likely of the two to successfully transition to making an immediate impact in the NBA. He's a tenacious defender and has a pro's body. I imagine KP is looking very carefully at the moves available to him to try and land Ty Lawson.
Brandon Jennings is another option, though the year he's spent abroad has made it clear he is not yet ready to start at point guard for a contending NBA team like the Blazers. He has struggled with his shot selection and his shooting percentages in the European league he's been playing in this past year have been poor as a result. It would take some time for him to adjust to the NBA. But he's a creative playmaker, a tough defender, and has a good stroke already (unlike, say, Sergio). Also, he's lightning quick, somewhere in the neighborhood of Tony Parker, if not Aaron Brooks. If the Blazers were able to pick up Jennings, it wouldn't have much immediately impact on their championship prospects for 2009-2010, but it would give them a strong core for most of the next decade.
There are a handful of other guards in the draft that will go before 24, but none of them project to be NBA starting point guards right now (Evans, Holiday, etc), and we have the only combo guard we need as our primary franchise player.
Based on my analysis, if we think our championship window is open this coming season, trying to sign Andre Miller may be enough to get us there, but if the plan is still to build for the next decade, trying to move up in the draft to get Lawson (best uncrazy case scenario) or Jennings is what I'm hoping the Blazers organization is working hard to do right now.
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87 comments
Comments
Who would you give to get him?
It seems that everyone's real problem is they just don't drink enough coffee. They lose their edge, lose track of their priorities, and end up sleeping a third of their life away.
by jlarose78 on May 14, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just don't think Chicago wants what we'd be willing to offer
We’re not likely to give up what they’d demand.
by baduk on May 14, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably right
I think the time to grab Kirk was in February. Back then, KP had RLEC and Hinrich was coming off surgery. Chicago could’ve gotten mucho cap relief and shredded Kirk’s salary in one fell swoop
Since then, Cap’n Kirk has played well in the post-season and RLEC disolved into the ether
So, unless the Bulls really like Sergio as a backup PG and think Outlaw is da bomb (Travis did score 30+ point in Chi-town, last fall…) I think KP will have to look elsewhere
Pity
by two4larue on May 14, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blake instead of Sergio
Portland throws Sergio somewhere else. Would use Hinrich and Bayless as backup, and probably draft a PG to be 15th man in case Bayless continues to suck.
by Zaig on May 14, 2009 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd really like to keep Blake
Even though there would be a minutes crunch at PG and Bayless might get even less PT than he did with Blake-Sergio, the idea of Hinrich-Blake is very intriguing. I’m concerned about injuries, as well. If your idea goes through and Kirk goes down, we’re left with Bayless and a rookie PG or someone signed to a 10-day contract or maybe Roy playing out of position at PG.
Plus, Hinrich doesn’t fill the need for a penetrating PG much better than Blake does. So even though Kirk seems like the best fit, he’s not a “perfect” fit
Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Tony Parker, Derrick Rose, Devin Harris, Chauncey Billups, Rodney Stuckey, Rajon Rondo, Russell Westbrook, Jose Calderon, Mike Conley, and DJ Augustin will all be too expensive in terms of what we’d need to give up to get them
Here’s hoping that someone on baduk’s list will be available, and KP knows exactly “what” it will take to pry them away from their current team.
by two4larue on May 15, 2009 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good god
You should hear what the Chicago fans over at PSD want for Heinrich
Offseason:
Trade For Mike Conley Jr
Sign Antonio McDyess & Othello Hunter
Draft Kevin Seraphin/Edwin Jackson(Eurostash)
by TheGreatDane17 on May 14, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here are some ideas:
Portland Gets: Heinrich
Chicago Gets: Oden, Rudy(The worst of the worst)
Chicago Gets: Rudy, Sergio, Outlaw
Chicago Gets: Rudy, Blake, Outlaw
Chicago Gets: Rudy, Bayless, Outlaw
It is getting rediculous
Offseason:
Trade For Mike Conley Jr
Sign Antonio McDyess & Othello Hunter
Draft Kevin Seraphin/Edwin Jackson(Eurostash)
by TheGreatDane17 on May 14, 2009 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is funny. But it will be much less
Steve Blake, Chicago’s 2010 second round pick back (that we own after Ömer Asik trade), $2-3 million cash
$10 million salary Kirk – $4.25 million salary Blake = $5.75 million difference which we can absorb with our cap space of ca. $7 million if Channing doesn’t get the QO assuming the cap stays around where it is now and doesn’t crash down. Or $9.5 million salary Kirk – $4 million salary Blake = $5.5 million if they want to do it later in the offseason. Don’t know what the teams prefer. It now fails on the ESPN trade machine, but if will work when it needs to be done.
Of note: Chicago also creates a valuable traded player exception in the height of the difference since they are giving up the player with the bigger salary (i.e. usually the better player in theory as the CBA is written) that they can use later (1 year) going forward and do another deal with a team that wants to get rid of a contract at the deadline (very likely going into the free agent summer of 2010).
So getting LESS back in salary is actually better for Chicago. Bulls fans will laugh at that deal thinking it’s not enough value in talent, but I think if the Bulls are willing to move Hinrich mainly for luxury tax and "we want to re-sign Ben Gordon" reasons exactly that could go down. Add a pick or so. In talent Blake is an adequate cheaper replacement for Hinrich who they can use as an off-guard next to Rose which wouldn’t work e.g. with Sergio’s shooting problems.
"Officiating has to be a science, not an art" - Rick Carlisle
by Norsktroll on May 14, 2009 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now THAT would be a Pritch-slap
Well, we’ve seen Kevin create some doozy-deals for draft choices and trade exceptions (Zach Randolph, etc) but this proposal stretches the ol’ credulity meter. I get that the Bulls won’t want to pay both Hinrich and Gordon starter’s money. But I have trouble with them seeing Steve Blake as the ideal swingman in a 3-guard rotation with Rose and Gordon. (Maybe John Paxson “sees himself” in Steve Blake?)
If KP really wanted Hinrich why not do the deal in February, when he had Blake out with the shoulder injury and RLEC to ease Chicago’s salary cap concerns? Instead, he chose to stand pat and the Bulls worked out a deadline deal with Sac-town.
Like I told Zaig up above, if you deal Steve for Kirk you’re just another Hinrich injury away from Bayless starting on a playoff team (assuming Sergio’s not coming back) I’d rather come up with a way to eat my cake (Hinrich) and have it too (Blake) even if it includes more of PA’s money and most of KP’s 2nd round draft choices to pry Kirk away. And even with Hinrich on the hypothetical Blazer’s roster, you still won’t have the kind of penetrating PG who will run the fastbreak and get to the FT line in crunch time
by two4larue on May 15, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roy at the Point
The more I think about this the more it seems the logical solution
"It's not who jumps the highest -- it's who wants it the most" Buck Williams
"and if EVERYONE confronted with a tough, disgusting situation pulled out, I don't think I would have been born." Mortimer
by Fund A Mental on May 14, 2009 1:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Probably not
I’ve asked this question; what I hear is that the point is just too physically demanding over the minutes we want Roy to play.
by chnews on May 14, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I've heard
but that sounds like a fallacy to me.
If you put in Rudy at the 2 and Roy at the 1, is Roy expending any more energy that he would normally? I don’t see it. Arguably, defense would be more laborious, but Kobe and Artest put full effort into the defensive end, I don’t know why Roy should be exempt from this
Yellow Mamba FTW!
by northwestj on May 15, 2009 6:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brandon does need to step his defense up...against NBA shooting guards
But that doesn’t mean he should be chasing around PGs like CP3, D-Will, Parker, etc for 35 minutes a night. You’re just asking for season-ending and career-shortening leg injuries
Let’s let Roy be what he is (an all-NBA 2 guard) rather than squeeze him into a role that he’s not suitable for, just to get Rudy more PT
by two4larue on May 15, 2009 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he already plays the point when we need him to
he wouldn’t be physically up to it. And it would allow opposing teams to double him earlier and he hasn’t really shown to me he can split or pass out of them
by SamGoody on May 14, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it was going to happen
It already would have. I don’t think Roy wants to do it.
by baduk on May 14, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is Rubio impossible?
Maybe, for the reasons you mention. But I wonder. Does the Blazers’ financial leverage help construct a scenario where someone trades down?
What if OKC (yuk) winds up in second or third place and wants to somehow work a deal to get Griffin (assuming Rubio isn’t interesting to them because of Westbrook and the fact Rubio would never play there)?
It’s a weak draft. I don’t see any of the weaker teams looking to build around Rubio. And there’s Rubio’s complicated financial situation. Seems like somehow, there’s an opportunity in there.
by chnews on May 14, 2009 1:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Rubio Is impossible
Even if we did want to wait to develop another PG he would cost more then we are willing to spend
It seems that everyone's real problem is they just don't drink enough coffee. They lose their edge, lose track of their priorities, and end up sleeping a third of their life away.
by jlarose78 on May 14, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't watch Bayless in arizona so help me with this
did you? because 4 ast. in college is decent, especially when your looking at a guard oriented team like Arizona
by SamGoody on May 14, 2009 1:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
he was also a great 3 point shooter in college
bayless leaves over my dead body
by thomasikehara on May 14, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does any one know?
of a comparible player with Bayless’s size and wingspan
It seems that everyone's real problem is they just don't drink enough coffee. They lose their edge, lose track of their priorities, and end up sleeping a third of their life away.
by jlarose78 on May 14, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I figured it Out
The only Player close to Bayless’s size and short Wingspan Luke Ridnour
It seems that everyone's real problem is they just don't drink enough coffee. They lose their edge, lose track of their priorities, and end up sleeping a third of their life away.
by jlarose78 on May 14, 2009 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He didn't play PG at Arizona
Because his team needed a scorer, and there was another guy on his team who was a better facilitator. But if he was an NBA caliber PG, he’d have played PG at Arizona.
by baduk on May 14, 2009 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah I see but...
the other player only got like .2 more ast./game… so I’m not writing him off as hopless
by SamGoody on May 16, 2009 2:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know this is nuts
but I wouldn’t be horribly opposed to Gilbert Arenas.
draft rodrigue beaubois
by Cablinasian on May 14, 2009 1:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
its not nuts
He’s not the ideal candidate, but he’s a guy you might be able to buy low on right now.
by jksnake99 on May 14, 2009 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's my reasoning
he’s the ultimate buy low.
draft rodrigue beaubois
by Cablinasian on May 14, 2009 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gilbert is overpaid
He has injury issues, wouldn’t be able to find enough shots in the Blazers offense, is an inconsistent defender, and is more of a scorer than facilitator. This team has scorers already, that’s part of Bayless’ problem.
by baduk on May 14, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is the issue with hinrich too
he is also overpaid for what he is. – elgin
VENTURA: It's drowning. It gives you the complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you -- I'll put it to you this way, you give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.
by 22baylor on May 14, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not sure what to think
Gilbert is overpaid sure…offensive shoot first pgs are a dime a dozen. However…while Hinrich may not be a big overall talent, there aren’t a lot of quality defensive pgs in the league compared to offensive ones. Less supply = higher demand.
I got 6 years of playoff blue balls going on, and I'm ready to release. GO BLAZERS. ~Mortimer
by Philthyanimal on May 15, 2009 12:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I He is not a point guard (he wasn't one in college, either), and you don't learn to be a point guard in the NBA if you're not a point guard before you get there."
“I was a scoring point guard,” Chauncey says. “And if you recall, at that time a scoring point guard wasn’t all that popular. It was like a running quarterback.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=090511/billups
by SonyaBlazer on May 14, 2009 1:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I saw Chauncey play at Colorado
Billups could always pass and create, both off the dribble and in transition. I read the article (which is a good one, btw), he specifically mentions he was told to shoot and score both in Boston and Minnesota. Bayless did not get to the NBA with the same skill set or court vision.
by baduk on May 14, 2009 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The certainty with which you repeat this assertion is pretty amazing given how little time Bayless has been on the court
I think it is pure folly or hubris for anyone to make definitive statements about whether or not Bayless can become an adequate distributor. He averaged between 6-7 assists/game for his junior and senior years of HS. He was expected to play PG at Arizona but the top SG candidate got hurt and Bayless was moved to SG because they had another PG but not another scorer like Bayless.
Bayless averaged 4 asts/game on only 20 min of PT/game while Blake was hurt. The rest of the season his minutes and his role where too chaotic to draw any reasonable conclusions. When he was getting minutes, his rookie stats where equivalent to guys like Billups, Williams, and Harris. Guys who come in with a rep for being big perpetrators and scorers often take a couple of years of decent minutes to learn the decision making skills necessary to be successful PGs at this level. In fact Brooks and Conley are another couple guys who had disappointing rookie seasons and then blossomed in their second year.
I find it amazing that you and so many others are willing to speak with almost Godlike certainty that he “will never become a PG.” You all better be prepared to eat some rather large slices of humble pie, if you are wrong.
by upper left corner on May 15, 2009 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm ready, are you?
Bayless will be playing point guard in summer league this year.
Shall we wager?
If Bayless averages more than 6 assists per 30 minutes played in those games, I will write a fanpost about how I have a tendency towards arrogant snottery and snap judgements, and my 30 years of watching college and pro ball hasn’t taught me a thing about evaluating talent.
If Bayless averages less than 6 assists per 30 minutes played, you’ll write a post about how your blind homerism causes you to evaluate players not based on past performance and demonstrated ability but instead by fanboy blinders and wishful thinking. And how humble pie is actually quite delicious.
Are you up for it?
by baduk on May 17, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry I didn't see your response sooner.
Given that Bayless will likely be passing to a bunch of stiffs who don’t know the offense, I’m not sure I buy your criteria.
Given that it took Billups six seasons before he averaged more than 5 assists per game, I’m not sure that your criteria makes much sense.
Given that my comment was about not jumping to snap judgements, I’m not sure that five or six Summer League is the right venue for evaluating improvement.
Talk to me at the All-Star break if Bayless has averaged over 15 minutes/game. If his per/40 minute adjusted assists are under what Blake averaged this season then we can talk.
by upper left corner on May 21, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/5/11/872534/off-topic-awesome-billups-article
as well, same article, but with our very own BE comments added on to it.
In addendum, besides Magic, how many PGs won a championship in the season that they had 10+ apg? NONE.
I guess we could sign Miller, groom Bayless, trade Sergio, draft Collison as PF3 and either trade Blake or let him go.
But I would also not have any problem keeping Blake and have him groom Bayless as that will probably be the most likely outcome. Blake is cheap and reliable and will give way to Bayless by the ASG. If we go Miller he will want to play, and that will leave fewer minutes for Bayless as Miller will be able to hold him off longer than Blake.
If we are looking at the short term gain than Miller would be good as he can get us maybe into the 2nd or 3rd rd but if we give that time to Bayless, we could set ourselves up for a later, longer run.
I think this summer we need to make a decision on Bayless and either go all in with him or cut bait and run. I do not see many options that are better than him for the future. we will not have a high draft pick, all of our bench players will not be able to get us a young quick PG, and we have loads of potential in Bayless.
We need to let him go at it and live with the rough patches and then reap the benefits later on.
"Damn the Blazers. Damn them to hell. They are working the rest of the league like a speed bag." - Bill Simmons 6/26/08
by SpyderRyder on May 14, 2009 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right, Bayless does mean rough patches
In a sense it’d have been easier to use Bayless if we hadn’t done so well this year.
But Brandon wants to win now, and that means playing a point guard who gives the team the best chance to do that. That hurts the case for Bayless (and Jennings), and hampers the argument for keeping Steve Blake as the starter.
by baduk on May 14, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defense
Bayless will be far better than Blake at the defensive end by the playoffs next year if we give him 20 minutes a night.
by upper left corner on May 15, 2009 8:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm hoping KP has a better PG option than Miller in mind
But if Andre is the target, I’d like to hold onto both Blake and Bayless
Injuries happen, and they tend to happen more when the player is on the far side of 30. There’s nothing wrong with having 3 PGs. Jerryd will have to be a good enough PG to eventually beat out Steve Blake, or we might as well start looking elsewhere for another young project PG right now.
Guys, we’re all looking at the low-hanging fruit. Free agent PGs that won’t cost KP anything other than Paul Allen’s money to add to the roster. But when KP does a deal, there’s usually an accompanying “slap!” and that’s what I’m hopeful to hear this summer
I want a Gasol/Billups kind of trade that launches the Blazers into the NBA elite , if KP can’t produce one then he’s run out of magical pixie dust
by two4larue on May 14, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So then who would be your ideal PG
you a Harris guy? Parker?
I would want either Rondo or Parker. I think having a Paul, Nash or Williams would almost be bad as EVERYTHING would revolve around them. PGs that get a lot of asts almost never win championships, scoring ones do.
"Damn the Blazers. Damn them to hell. They are working the rest of the league like a speed bag." - Bill Simmons 6/26/08
by SpyderRyder on May 14, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gonna have to disagree with you here
Looking at PGs who were one of the best 3 players on their title teams since 1980 gives you this list.
Magic Johnson
Isiah Thomas
Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
and arguably Derek Fisher and Jason Williams, although they played behind Shaq/Kobe and Wade/Shaq so it would be a distant third.
Of the 13 titles these guys were involved in, only 2 led their team in scoring per game. Magic in 87 and Thomas in 90. Their assist numbers those years were also 12.2 and 9.4, which rank them a lot higher in the NBA than their scoring numbers.
Now, Magic averaged 23.9 once, but was below 20 for his other 3 titles.
Isiah averaged in the 18s for both of his.
Parker 15, 16, and 18.
Billups 17
Fisher and Williams were 11-12 range every time.
That means that of the 13 titles for these guys, only one time did the PG average over 20. Most of the time their averages weren’t anything special at all. Per minute most of them get outscored by Travis Outlaw. Scoring PGs don’t win titles. Assists PGs don’t win titles. The PG that wins titles is the one that has good players around him AND that fits in with those players.
by Zaig on May 14, 2009 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you on the fact the PG position is WAAY
overrated in winning championships and still feel that we may be able to win one with Blake at the helm, and you brought up the exact reason why=
Fit and great teammates.
You did not hear anyone bitching about Jason Friggin’ Williams’ D when he won his championship. Yeah they had the player formerly known as the Glove, but Williams had 30 mpg in the finals.
I have been preaching that we do not need a tremendous upgrade at PG as Steve Kerr, BJ Armstrong, Kenny Smith, Derek Fisher, and Jason Williams have won the majority of the championships in the past 2 decades.
I think it looks better to have a top flight PG as he has the ball 90% of the time and he looks so in control but the stats do not back up winning titles.
I would so much rather have 3 players at 5 apg than have 1 at 15 and the other 2 at 0. There would be no way you could compensate for having 3 solid if not spectacular playmakers on the court. Rudy/Blake/Roy can do it but it does leave the D a little lacking. If somehow Batum, LMA, or Oden can develop into a 3-5 apg player(s) and we have Bayless/Blake/Roy/Rudy coming in at 4-6 that will be scary.
"Damn the Blazers. Damn them to hell. They are working the rest of the league like a speed bag." - Bill Simmons 6/26/08
by SpyderRyder on May 14, 2009 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree that you dont need an elite pg to win
but…it seems as if these days speedy pgs have a big impact compared to dominating centers. yao played well against us…and howard is doing pretty good, but its still no where near what the elite centers of yesteryear did.
I got 6 years of playoff blue balls going on, and I'm ready to release. GO BLAZERS. ~Mortimer
by Philthyanimal on May 15, 2009 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The NBA doesn't have an elite center for the time being
In the last 20 years in terms of dominance:
Shaq > Hakeem > David > Ewing > Howard > Yao.
I didn’t count Duncan here although he could be up with Hakeem. But yeah, the Centers of today don’t quite dominate like the big 3 did back in the early/mid 90s and like Shaq did at turn of century.
by Zaig on May 15, 2009 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Balance is arguably better
But Batum, Oden and LMA won’t ever average 5 assists a game.
1. Batum doesn’t have enough touches. I doubt he ever averages 3
2. LMA is a postup player and when he kicks out, it usually requires a second pass by the guy he kicks it out to.
3. Oden is in same boat as LMA.
If those 3 can average 7 a game between them we’ll be good to go, but even that seems high. 7 from them, 11 from the guards is 18 for the starters. During regular season the bench guys play a little more than 1/3 the minutes, so give them 6-7 apg and you got your 24-25 apg.
by Zaig on May 15, 2009 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Batum
averaged 2.7 in the Euro league the year before he was drafted and in only 26m. Add that in to the 3.6/28m in the french league, and the stinginess of Euro statkeepers on assists and you have the makings of a good passing point forward.
Adjusted, that is 4.1/40m and 5.0/40m and with his BBIQ, unselfishness, and court vision, it is not that much of a stretch to think that is out of the real of possibility.
LMA averaged 2 this year, and in HS, Oden was lauded for his passing ability. Much like Shaq, who averages 2.5 career w/ a high 3.8apg, I think he could become a great passing C if we could set up cutters through the lane or the other players would learn where to go when Greg is 2x teamed.
It would be a lot closer to happening than not.
"Damn the Blazers. Damn them to hell. They are working the rest of the league like a speed bag." - Bill Simmons 6/26/08
by SpyderRyder on May 15, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you kidding me?
Rondo is a huge assist guy? So was Isiah Thomas.
Offseason:
Trade For Mike Conley Jr
Sign Antonio McDyess & Othello Hunter
Draft Kevin Seraphin/Edwin Jackson(Eurostash)
by TheGreatDane17 on May 14, 2009 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm how many PGs average 10+ APG period
Not many. Using that one random stat as a way of saying assists aren’t useful is silly.
by Zaig on May 14, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
65 times in the history of the league
has someone averaged more than 10.
The point being is that out of all the metrics, assists are the weakest at predicting championships.
"Damn the Blazers. Damn them to hell. They are working the rest of the league like a speed bag." - Bill Simmons 6/26/08
by SpyderRyder on May 14, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sign either Felton or Miller...
Four Step Plan…
1.) Sign either Raymond Felton or Andre Miller
2.) Groom Bayless to see what we have
3.) Leverage Sergio + Pick #24 + ??? to move up to #8-#14 to draft Ty Lawson or Brandon Jennings…
4.) Resign Steve Blake if needed after his contract expires in 2010 as a PG2 or PG3, just can’t keep him here while we try our hand with Bayless or rookie to be named soon.
by Portland Dynasty on May 14, 2009 2:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I support getting Felton
he’s there to be had.
Yellow Mamba FTW!
by northwestj on May 15, 2009 6:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ast averages
Billups=5.6
rookie=3.9/27m
Harris=4.3
rookie=2.2/15m
Parker=5.6
rookie=4.3/29m
Stuckey=4
rookie=2.8/19m
Bayless=1.5/12m
However if you look at Bayless’ #s in the 10 games where he played 20+ mins, he averaged
26.3min
46.8%fg
18%3pt
11pts
3.5ast
1.4to
2.1reb
All of this as a rookie on a 54 win team. When I say there will be rough patches, I suspect that most of them will be ironed out by Xmas.
If you look back it will be much like 2 years ago when Jack was running the point. He came in off the bench and then in the 4th Q as well. If you look at Jacks career production and the production of top 11 PG/SG picks over the last 10 years, their #s are identical is given similar playing time, meaning that if Bayless would of gotten 30mpg as Jack did when he was here, Bayless, as a rookie, would have been expected to produce similar #s as Jack in his 4th year. Of course Nate wanted to win now and Sergio was the better PG at the time so he got the nod good or bad.
Now that Sergio seems to be on his way out, the minutes freed up by him will go to Bayless and I expect him to produce at a higher rate than Jack did in his tenure here.
History backs it up that PG/SGs with that much talent, do well in the league, almost every one of the players you had mentioned about getting were top 11 draft picks and look what they have become.
Sophomores always take enormous leaps the next year, and the player I think that Bayless will be most like is Stuckey. They both averaged similar per 36#s as rookies, the only difference is that the pistons are older than us and getting fresh legs in the game does more than our young legs. He played almost 2x the mpg(19 to 12) and his development shows. Look at his stats as a starter this year:
31.9m
13.4p
4.9a
3.5r
2.2to
are very achievable #s for Bayless.
Blake can get us to the door, and Bayless can knock it down, THIS SEASON.
"Damn the Blazers. Damn them to hell. They are working the rest of the league like a speed bag." - Bill Simmons 6/26/08
by SpyderRyder on May 14, 2009 2:52 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Mike Conley
My favorite route gives our #1 pick Greg Oden the best chance to succeed & be happy here long term in Portland. It also gives us a true PG, lightning fast, already a top 3pt shooter for PG’s(Tied with three people for 9th), finishes with either hand, finished off the season very well. Looked infinitely better when playing for a former NBA PG(Much like our coach), Lionel Hollins. Mike Conley.
How do we acquire?
Trade Bait:
Blake
Outlaw
Sergio
Rudy(This might be what tips the scale to Portland getting Conley. If they did trade Rudy, there are some free agent options. Jamal Crawford, he is more of an all around scorer then Rudy in the NBA so far, he has never even had a decent coach. He is a offensive weapon.)
Batum(This is a huge what if… Ron Artest, if we signed him, is Batum happy to play spot minutes? Does he become trade bait? I am a huge Batum fan, just a offseason rambling)
I know they would love to have Greg Buckner off their cap, so he is an option for us to take on as an expiring contract.
Offseason:
Trade For Mike Conley Jr
Sign Antonio McDyess & Othello Hunter
Draft Kevin Seraphin/Edwin Jackson(Eurostash)
by TheGreatDane17 on May 14, 2009 3:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That latter two, tipping the scale in Portlands favor.
Offseason:
Trade For Mike Conley Jr
Sign Antonio McDyess & Othello Hunter
Draft Kevin Seraphin/Edwin Jackson(Eurostash)
by TheGreatDane17 on May 14, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think to get Conley, now
You’re going to have to take a bad contract off of Memphis’ roster (Jaric, Milicic?)
Before Hollins took over and gave Conley the freedom to make mistakes and learn to play PG, a straight Outlaw for MCJ deal might’ve been possible. But I think the Griz’ front office has a much more positive opinion of Conley now, and young/cheap PGs are hard to find or develop (as we TB fans know all too well…)
So, is reuniting Oden with Conley worth holding your nose and taking Jaric or Milicic and their 6-7 mil contacts? Hasn’t Memphis already burned the Blazer’s fingers enough this year by activating DMiles?
by two4larue on May 15, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes it would be worth it. We'd have the point guard of the present and future
GO would be better (which would be enough by itself, but it doesn’t have to be). We’d still have plenty of parts to get that last hole filled backing up PF. All would be merry as far as I’m concerned if you can get Conley Jr for Trout and a bad contract.
by as11osu on May 15, 2009 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade up for Jennings
I say we can trade up with a team and draft either Eric Maynor, Ty Lawson or Brandon Jennings
by quezadaz on May 14, 2009 4:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Trade Bayless
Trade Bayless and Trout to Memphis for Conley and a re-signed Warrick
It seems that everyone's real problem is they just don't drink enough coffee. They lose their edge, lose track of their priorities, and end up sleeping a third of their life away.
by jlarose78 on May 14, 2009 6:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Would have to throw our picks in
maybe even 2011 1st as well(but we all know that would be the 30th overall. Worth it? I think yes !)
Offseason:
Trade For Mike Conley Jr
Sign Antonio McDyess & Othello Hunter
Draft Kevin Seraphin/Edwin Jackson(Eurostash)
by TheGreatDane17 on May 14, 2009 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They might even want
Rudy or Batum.
Offseason:
Trade For Mike Conley Jr
Sign Antonio McDyess & Othello Hunter
Draft Kevin Seraphin/Edwin Jackson(Eurostash)
by TheGreatDane17 on May 14, 2009 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Memphis declines this trade
Even with picks
Rudy included probably makes it work, but isn’t that too much?
by baduk on May 15, 2009 7:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade for TJ Ford
He is a good point guard who has a good Texas connection with Lamarcus and can be our 3rd scorer. He is a good guard who can set up the offense and also score if needed. I actually think he would but into our team first attitude for the chance to go deep in the playoffs
by quezadaz on May 14, 2009 8:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Ford is one bad fall away from being done
He’s also one blow to the head from being done.
His defense is suspect, and he doesn’t bring it every night.
by baduk on May 15, 2009 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heres One
What about Jason Terry?
It seems that everyone's real problem is they just don't drink enough coffee. They lose their edge, lose track of their priorities, and end up sleeping a third of their life away.
by jlarose78 on May 14, 2009 9:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i like your ideas
im not sure if your jokin on this or not but i do like the idea of conley and warrick. but what are we going to do with blake
by quezadaz on May 14, 2009 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For Conley and Warick
Give them Sergio, Bayless and Trout + #24 Blake becomes starter till Conley learns system then moves into starting role
It seems that everyone's real problem is they just don't drink enough coffee. They lose their edge, lose track of their priorities, and end up sleeping a third of their life away.
by jlarose78 on May 14, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hinrich now
Jerryd in 2 years
I believe in Greg Oden. To all the haters - get down with the program or stay off the wagon for all time. #52
by blazeraddict on May 14, 2009 10:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Love Hinrich but
What do the Bulls want?
by quezadaz on May 14, 2009 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade for Mike Conley Jr or Ricky Rubio
because Memphis gets the #2 pick in the draft and can’t keep both.
by as11osu on May 15, 2009 12:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
how long will it take to develop rubio?
i’m kinda done with these pg experiments.
I got 6 years of playoff blue balls going on, and I'm ready to release. GO BLAZERS. ~Mortimer
by Philthyanimal on May 15, 2009 12:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rubio would make a Derrick Rose like impact immediately
And he’s a much better defender than Rose or Blake.
Rubio is the end of problems at the position for 10+ years.
I don’t know how much further you want me to go with the answer, but he’s the bees knees of point guard prospects. I don’t even know how much you can call him a “prospect”. The league he’s been playing in for so long isn’t full of 19 and 20 year old low talent clowns. Its men, and the best men on the planet that aren’t in the NBA. He’s the cream of the crop at 18 years old. The issues you usually face with young point guards (game management and defense) don’t seem to be issues of his at all. His biggest hole before this year was his long ball, and he seemed to go a long way towards answering that, shooting over 42% from 3 in ACB play. I haven’t been this sure about a prospect since LeBron James. Not that he’s on that level, but I’m quite sure I know what he’s going to be in this league, and its pretty darn good, and exactly what we need.
by as11osu on May 15, 2009 3:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have entirely to much faith
in a draft pick and an international one to boot
It seems that everyone's real problem is they just don't drink enough coffee. They lose their edge, lose track of their priorities, and end up sleeping a third of their life away.
by jlarose78 on May 15, 2009 7:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Ricky too but...
…I question his immediate impact due to transition issues. I have no questions about his game – he’s got it in spades and will only get better. BUT – the NBA schedule, travel, back to backs, opponents size & physicality, etc. will be a real shock to him. We saw it with Rudy and he’s several years older. Ricky will get there, but it will take more than 1 year.
That said, if we can pritchslap our way into getting him without messing with our core (Roy, LMA, Oden, Pryz, Rudy, Nic) I’m all for it. We will do great things next year, but I think our championship window opens in 2011, no sooner.
by blazergrl on May 15, 2009 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm fine with going after Conley
don’t think Memphis would let him go, though.
It would be a great situation for Travis, as well… his family is nearby, and he’d have lots of shots and opportunities.
draft rodrigue beaubois
by Cablinasian on May 15, 2009 12:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
MC jr now vs drafting him
I was extremely against drafting or acquiring MCjr his rookie year…but now that he was on a crappy team and was able to learn freely from his mistakes…rather than be on a tight leash here in Portland, I wouldn’t be opposed to getting him.
I got 6 years of playoff blue balls going on, and I'm ready to release. GO BLAZERS. ~Mortimer
by Philthyanimal on May 15, 2009 12:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same exact thing for me
I didn’t care for him as a prospect coming out, but he’s been better than expected. That coupled with our need for what he could bring in addition to the calming effect it’d have on Oden might be just what the doctor ordered for this basketball team. Having a ball handler like him with exceptional court vision the ability to penetrate and the ability to knock down the long ball with efficiency would help this team immensely.
by as11osu on May 15, 2009 3:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you agree to take on the salary of either Jaric or Milicic?
If that was the deal-breaker, from Memphis’ point of view?
by two4larue on May 15, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
WIthout question.
We’d still have plenty of parts to get our last piece (backup PF).
by as11osu on May 15, 2009 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Try for something awesome, if not, play Blake another year and start feeding Rex some minutes.
"Whatever...I heard Bayless uses a pillowcase as a wallet." --TiH
by prezofdeath on May 15, 2009 11:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Here is something awesome
Steve Nash. I think we can give up Rex and Trout with a 2nd round pick for Steve Nash, Alando Tucker and a future 1st round pick. I know the salaries dont add up but KP can figure out something. Then we find a way to draft Eric Maynor and have him develop under Nash until we get rid of him and have Maynor our PG of the future. Bayless would excel in the Suns offense and would definetly be there starting point guard. Bayless would be like Monta Ellis and would be really good with Barbosa, J-Rich and Amare.
by quezadaz on May 16, 2009 12:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I misplaced my Isiah Thomas seal of approval, but any Nash deal to Portland should get one
"Officiating has to be a science, not an art" - Rick Carlisle
by Norsktroll on May 16, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sign Jason Kidd to a short term deal or acquire Kirk Hinrich in a trade.
I think they’re the two best, and realistic, ways to upgrade the point guard position.
by NBR on May 16, 2009 12:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Kidd already elected not to play in Portland
He killed the deal to have us get him from New Jersey.
by baduk on May 17, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Things can change — Portland is now a contender and one of the few contenders that are looking for a starting point guard. I fully believe the Blazers will be one of Kidd’s top destinations.
by NBR on May 17, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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