A **Revised** Plan for the future
A Plan for the Future **Revised**
As I said in my first post, it was just a rough draft, since I posted it, it has received over 350 comments thanks to Dave putting it on the main page. I have read each comment and suggestion, and knowing that my ideas are not always the best I decided to see if maybe there is a better plan for the future of this team. This revised plan will include; updated salary cap info from Storyteller and others who pointed out some flaws in my original post, and many different player movement plans that people have suggested. Hopefully it will not be as long as the last one, and hopefully it will be as well received.
I. Salary cap for the 2009/2010 season
Before we go any further, we need to assess the team’s salary cap situation, as it will effect every decision that is made from this point. For this post, I am going to use an assumed salary cap for next season, the number I have chosen is $57.3 million. I chose this number because it seems to be the most quoted by NBA writers when talking about projecting next years cap. The luxury tax has always been between $12-13 million more than the salary cap, the actual number is determined by an insane formula that I can’t go into, because I really don’t understand it, but if you would like to read about it, you can at, http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q16. If we use the higher end of the assumed amount, ($13 million) that would put the luxury tax threshold at $70.3 million.
The Blazers have committed $50,567,802 in payroll next season, but that is not their cap number. As pointed out by ptldplatypus, and confirmed by Storyteller, there are cap holds which reduce the actual salary cap space the team has to sign free agents. Those holds are $933,500 for the Blazers #24 pick in the 2009 draft, $824,200 for Petteri Koponen, $824,200 for Joel Freeland, and $4,264,761 for Channing Frye. Adding in those hold you will get $ 55,744,779, which is exactly what Storyteller shows on his website, http://www.storytellerscontracts.info/resources/08-09salaries.htm. Leaving the Blazers a projected $1,555,221 in cap space this summer. What that does not include is the Blazers Mid-level exception, or Bi-annual exception.
The Blazers have some options to gain more cap space, they can renounce their rights to players or exceptions if they choose. For example they can renounce their rights to Channing Frye to free up his cap hold of $4,264,761, giving the team a total of $5,819,982 in possible cap space. To use that space the team would need to renounce their mid-level and bi-annual exceptions, which they might not want to do. This is because the mid-level exception this last year was $5.585 million, and the bi-annual was $1.91 million. Those can be split up to sign more than 2 players, but they can not be added together to sign one player. The team could also renounce its rights to Freeland or Koponen to gain $1,648,400 additional space, but I don’t see them doing it. So for the purpose of this plan I am going to say the team will renounce it’s rights to Frye, giving them $5,819,982 in possible cap space if they also decide to renounce their exceptions. In the player acquisition section below I will detail how we will trade for, or sign a player(s) and if the team would have to renounce their exceptions or not.
II. Player decisions for the season ending in 2009.
In the last post I detailed specifics about letting some players go, and signing both Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge to extensions. For this post I will simply say the team will sign them both, Roy for $88 million over 5 years, and LaMarucs for $50 million for 5 years. If you care to read my reasoning behind those salaries, or how I came up with those numbers, you can read the original post here, http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/5/8/869802/a-plan-for-the-future.
III. Trades and Free Agents
Instead of detailing one specific plan this time, I am going to give a few options that others have suggested. The ones I have picked to detail, were picked because they could be supported by other sources and possible, (meaning no LBJ or Kobe trades will make it) and because a deal could be made for the player(s) that seems reasonable to all parties.
The first trade I would like to discus, we’ll call it Plan A, is with Detroit for Tayshaun Prince. This was suggested by many people, who felt the Blazers needed and upgrade at the SF more than at the PG. The general feeling was Steve Blake could hold down the fort at the point for now, but the trio of Outlaw, Webster and Batum could not produce enough for this team to compete for a championship next year or in the next few years. Looking at, http://www.motownstringmusic.com/, it is clear they are willing to deal Prince if they get value in return. The Pistons will be under the cap, but have some big holes to fill, with Wallace and AI both apparently leaving. In fact only Hamilton, Prince, K. Brown, Amir Johnson, Jason Maxiell, R. Stuckey, and Will Bynum are left from their rotation. So they will need some players, and they believe Joe Dumars will be aggressive in free agency and in the trade market, specifically trying to move both Hamilton and Prince for younger, possibly cheaper talent.
Fans in Detroit seem to willing to trade Prince for Gerald Wallace of Charlotte, or a player of his caliber. (http://www.motownstringmusic.com/2009/4/22/849010/next-seasons-roster). Charlotte seems to have been open to trading Wallace for a few years now, and while getting Prince in return would be a possible talent upgrade, they have far more needs to solve, and precious little cap space to do it in. The Bobcats are sitting at $66,877,077 next year, without their exceptions or lottery pick holds added on. With the lottery pick alone they will be right at the luxury tax line, however they also have a few players they can renounce to give them some more space. Both Raymon Felton and Sean May are RFA’s this offseason coming off their rookie deals. Now they appear to want to resign Felton, if he can be had for a reasonable price, but May is a long shot to stay, and even longer to stay with a deal approaching his hold of $3,680,200. If we take that off then they sit at $63,186,784 before their draft pick and exceptions. So they are way over the salary cap, and pushing the luxury tax threshold no matter how you look at it.
The Bobcats need scoring, especially if they are going to trade away their top scoring option in Wallace. They also need a shooting guard, and possibly a point guard if they don’t resign Felton. They could use a true 7 foot center, but otherwise their frontcourt depth is pretty sold with Okafor, Boris Diaw, and DeSagana Diop. They also have Vladimir Radmanovic and Nazr Mohammed who are both useable, but not really rotation quality players.
The only reasonable deal I could come up with would bring Prince to Portland, while sending Outlaw, Webster, and Bayless to Charlotte, and Wallace to Detroit. Detroit would also receive Portland’s 1st round pick in the 2009 draft. For Detroit it is a straight swap of Prince for Wallace on the court, Wallace is younger, and more of a scorer, which they need. Their contracts are about $1 million apart, and Wallace is signed for 2 years longer than Prince. Detroit would maintain its cap space to sign a free agent like Boozer, so I see them willing to do this. The 1st round pick they get from Portland, #24 overall will also help them either move up in the draft, make a trade, or pick up a player on a cheap contract who can be useful to them next year.
For Charlotte, they get 3 possible answers to 3 of their biggest concern areas for a player who they have tried to give away at times. Portland might also be willing to throw in a 2nd round pick, which would give the Bobcats another chance to pick up a player on the cheap. Barring further moves, Webster would be their opening day starter at shooting guard, since they have been using a two pg line up at the end of the season with Augustin and Felton playing heavy minutes with little known Dontell Jefferson backing them up on a 10 day contract. Outlaw would also start for them at SF, with Wallace gone, their only other option is Radmanovic, and Outlaw is obviously the better choice. Bayless would compete to start if Felton wasn’t resigned, if he is resigned, Bayless can still provide scoring off the bench as a combo guard, behind Webster. That is 3 rotation players for 1, plus Outlaw is someone who can win you one or two games all on his own, something they just don’t have on that team.
For Portland the deal is obviously to get Prince, who will turn 30 next season. At 6-9, 215 lbs, he is the best available starting small forward on the market for Portland. Getting him would be a coup, to end all coup’s. Prince has averaged 13+ ppg over the last 5 seasons, shooting 46% for his career, and 37% from 3 for his career, (40% 3pt in 2009). But forget me trying to explain it, lets have an “expert” do it,
“Prince's year-to-year consistency is pretty amazing, as he put together his fourth consecutive season of near-identical production and played all 82 games for a fifth straight season -- his string of 354 straight starts is the league's longest, and would be about a hundred games longer if it included playoff games. The biggest change was a decline in 3-point attempts, which was a bit mysterious since he shoots them at 36.5 percent for his career, and the result was a bit of a dip in his TS%.
At both ends, Prince is an extreme low-mistake player. He ranked fourth among small forwards in turnover ratio; more amazingly, he had the second-lowest foul rate in the league even though the Pistons used him as their primary defensive stopper (see chart). Looking at the foul-rate leaders brings this into sharper detail -- it's four guys who never play defense and Prince. Combining those two thoughts, he had only six offensive fouls last season -- an amazingly low total for a mid-teens scorer.
Prince's other defining characteristic is his ability to handle the ball and find open men. He ranked eighth among small forwards in assist ratio; combined with the low turnovers, only LeBron James had a better pure point rating among small forwards.
At 6-9 with long arms, Prince is an imposing obstacle for offensive players to shoot over. He's smart enough to take advantage of his length by playing an extra step off his man, knowing that he can still react in time to bother the shot because he's so long. He almost never gambles on D, finishing with the fourth-lowest rate of steals per minute among small forwards; instead he forces opponents to go over the top of him. For his efforts, he was a second-team All-Defense pick for a third straight season.
Offensively, Prince takes a lot of long 2-pointers off one or two dribbles. He's very good at knocking down jumpers at the end of the shot clock and has no trouble getting his shot off, but it's not necessarily a high-percentage look. He rarely drives to the basket or gets to the free-throw line, though he can be very effective posting up on the right block against shorter wings.
Prince also excels at running the left wing on the break and swooping in for dunks, though Detroit rarely runs. And although he's 6-9, he handles the ball very well for his size and can be used as a point forward. – John Hollinger”
So yea he is basically the perfect small forward for the Blazer’s system. To make this trade happen, the Blazers don’t need any cap space, since their outgoing and incoming salaries match within $300k. This trade would leave the Blazers with Prince and Batum at the small forward position, which in my opinion is the best case scenario. This not only defines their roles, but leaves some time possibly at the 3 to get Roy and Rudy on the court together against some teams. I don’t think many fans of the Blazers can say getting Prince would be a bad thing, but I know there are some who will think this deal gives up too much for him, and you may be right. However to get a lot you have to give up a lot, and I would be willing to do this in a heart beat.
As for the deals impact on the Blazers salary cap, it adds $261,646 to the Blazers payroll for next year, but it also eliminates the cap hold for the Blazers 1st round pick, ($933,500), leaving them with a possible $6,491,836 in cap space, before their exceptions.
Along with this trade, the Blazers would still need to fill a few holes, and make some decisions on players. They must decide if they want to keep Sergio or not. By trading Bayless, it gives all the back up time to Sergio at the point, unless further moves are made. There are a few options in the free agent market for point guards, Jason Kidd, Mike Bibby, Raymon Felton, Ramon Sessions, and Andre Miller are all unrestricted or restricted free agents. Of those, Kidd is rumored to want to stay in Dallas, and they want to keep him, to read about that go here, http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullColumn.php?id=1588, and Mike Bibby appears to have found a home in Atlanta, which is far enough under the cap to resign him. That leaves Felton, Sessions and Miller, all of whom could fit the Blazers, but for different reasons. Felton is rumored to want a big payday, but he has not played his way into one. He is a 40% career shooter, who shot 41% last year. From distance he is even worse, 29% last year, and 32% for his career, and he is not the defensive stopper many want either, but don't take my word for it, from ESPN;
Felton is a pure point guard by size, but doesn't quite have the pass-first mentality that coaches tend to prefer. Being jerked between the 1 and 2 the past couple years probably hasn't helped any, nor has his erratic shooting from distance. And on drives to the rim, he tends to just double-pump and hope he gets bailed out by the ref rather than seriously trying to finish the play.
Defensively, it was hard to judge Felton since he was playing out of position. He seemed to get caught up in screens off the ball a lot, probably because he had rarely defended wings before. On the ball he was adequate, if hardly exceptional.
Felton is the classic, decent player that looks good on a bad team, and the Blazers should stay away.
Andre Miller, at 33 is on the downhill side of his career, he is a much better player than Felton, shooting 46% for his career, and 47% last year. His 3point shot is still nothing to write home about, he does have one fan that wants in pdx, http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/2009/05/could-andre-miller-be-wearing-a-blazers-jersey-next-season/. Miller is not a defensive stopper at the point, in fact he is no better than Blake, but no worse either. On offense Blake out shines him on 3 point percentage, but the rest belongs to Miller, including his ability to run the fast break. But he will come at a cost of over $8 million most likely.
Ramon Sessions might be obtainable, more so than any of the other guards on this list, which is why I choose to add him in Plan A. For some Milwaukee perspective on Sessions read this article by Michael Hunt of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, http://www.jsonline.com/sports/bucks/42640872.html. Here is what he has to say specifically about Sessions and the Bucks decision to match or not,
“Sessions is doable as one of the two hardest pieces to find, the other being the centerpiece big man the Bucks have if Andrew Bogut stays healthy. If packaged with incentives like a Joe Alexander, the Bucks could move Luke Ridnour's expiring $6.5 million contract to clear space for Sessions. But with a potentially high lottery pick, they could be better served if a rookie point guard with more up side - a Brandon Jennings or an Eric Maynor, for example - fell their way.
These are the unknowns going into the summer, although one thing is clear:
The Bucks got themselves into this jam by freely matching contracts and re-signing players to the point that they tied themselves down with a lot of unmovable paper. They'd be better off building around their one long-term contract - Bogut - with flexible deals that would actually allow Hammonds and Skiles the chance to go get their kinds of players.”
It sounds to me that Milwaukee might be willing to part with Sessions by not matching an offer sheet, but they would be even more willing if they received some salary cap relief in return. Milwaukee is at $71,035,835 in projected salary next season, which includes a cap hold for Charlie Villanueva who is coming off his rookie deal. The Bucks will have to trade players or not resign Sessions to stay under the luxury tax threshold, which is why they tried so desperately to unload Richard Jefferson at the trade deadline.
At 6-3 190lbs, Sessions has the build that KP likes, and the body to play defense, even if he hasn't become great at it yet. He shoots 44% from the floor, and is a good FT shooter at 80%, but he is not a good 3 point shooter. He makes his living in the lane, which is what many here have asked for in their starting point guard. He sees the court like Sergio does, which is very well, but he scores and rebounds better that Steven and Sergio, and gets a few more steals and blocks too. Here is ESPN's scouting report,
As if it weren't obvious from the assist totals, Sessions has outstanding court vision and is a pass-first guy who likes to drive and dish. He's neither a great athlete nor a great shooter, but he rebounds well for his position and made surprisingly few mistakes for a rookie point guard. Defensively, he appears to have the size to guard the position but may be challenged to stay in front of quicker guards.
While Sessions is not worth the full mid-level exception, (some where around $5.858 million) he is worth alot, but because of the Arena’s rule, the Bucks can offer him more than anyone else, if they choose to go into tax hell. However their owner has said he will not, so unless he has a change of heart, it looks plauseable that the Blazers, or another team could pick up Sessions this summer. I would offer Sessions a 5 year deal for $25 million, if I was sure Milwaukee wouldn’t match. That could be done with part of the Mid-level exception or by renouncing it and using the resulting cap space, I don’t think it would matter either way. If the Bucks were to match that offer, they would be over the luxury tax threshold by almost $10 million next year, unless they could trade Jefferson or Redd, which would be a huge gamble for them.
If the Blazers are convinced that Sessions is their guy, and that Milwaukee will match any offer, they would have to try and make a sign and trade offer that appeals to the Bucks. The Blazers could offer some salary relief by signing Reaf or Ruffin to a partially guaranteed contract, then trading him to Milwaukee in exchange for Sessions, who would have been signed as well, (I don’t really see that happening.), or adding a second round pick or two, which would be cheap for the Bucks to sign. Unfortuately if the Bucks want to keep Sessions and let Charlie V. go, there is nothing the Blazers can do to outbid them.
My feeling it that Milwaukee’s brass, (Hammond and Skiles) want to get out of salary cap hell, and get some more flexable deals, for players who can play. Basically they want to move from where the Blazers were 3 years ago, to where the Blazers are today, in terms of their salary cap picture. To do that, they will have to let Sessions walk, and maybe Charlie V. too, unless they can get a taker for Michael Redd or Richard Jefferson this summer or next season before the trade deadline, which means signing Ramon Sessions for $25 million over 5 years is a very real possiblilty.
To sign Sessions, lets say the Blazers renounced their Mid-level exception, with Sessions salary at $5 million that would reduce the Blazers possible cap space to $1,491,836. The Bi-Annual exception for this year is $1,990,000, so more than the left over cap space, which makes it highly unlikely that the Blazers would renounce it. Instead they would look to aquire a veteran power forward to back up LaMarcus. The names I used in my first post would all require more than the $1.9 million the Blazers would have to offer, accept for Joe Smith. There were concerns that he was more willing to return to Cleveland then move on to another team though.
If Smith does resign with Cleveland, there are still a few options that could be available to the Blazers. Antonio McDyess be an option, he made just under $800k last year, is still productive, averaging 9.6ppg and 9.8rpg in 30mpg for the Pistons. Just a few years ago as a back up for Detroit he averaged 8 points and 6 rebounds in only 21 minutes per game. He shoots a high percentage from the floor, and plays good position defense. For me, these two are the first two free agent power forwards I talk to, and my guess is McDyess will not be asked to return to Detroit as they are going in a different direction. For Plan A, we sign Antonion McDyess for the full Bi-annual exception, 2 years just over $4 million in total.
So if Plan A was to come to life, the Blazers would look like this:
PG: Sessions $5,000,000 – Blake $4,000,000
SG: Roy $3,910,816 – Rudy $1,165,320
SF: Prince $10,324,380 – Batum $1,118,760
PF: LaMarcus $5,844,827 – McDyess $1,990,000
C: Oden $5,361,240 – Przybilla $6,857,725
To fill out the roster, I would still try and convince Joel Freeland to come over and compete for the back up PF spot with McDyess, and provide depth at the position. He may not win it, but I think he needs to be here to develop any futher
I would also pick a pg like Darren Collison with the one of the team’s 2nd round pick, and sign him to a 2 year deal, with the 2nd year being unguaranteed. I would also either sign one of the other 2nd round picks, or pick up a veteran on a minimum deal that isn’t expecting too much playing time, but can provide some insurance incase of injuries, like Quinton Ross. These signings would fill out the roster, and give valuable back up options incase of injury or just for practice. It would also leave the Blazers with 14 players leaving the 15th spot open like KP likes to do.
2009-2010 Roster – salary
1. Brandon Roy - $3,910,816
2. LaMarcus Aldridge – 5,844,826
3. Greg Oden – 5,361,240
4. Teyshaun Prince – 10,324,380
5. Ramon Sessions – 5,000,000
6. Rudy Fernandez – 1,165,320
7. Joel Przybilla – 6,857,725
8. Nicolas Batum – 1,118,760
9. Antonio McDyess - $1,990,000
10. Steve Blake 4,000,000
11. Sergio Rodriguez – 1,576,696
12. Darren Collision – 442,114
13. Quinton Ross - 771,123
14. Joel Freeland – 824,200
(Darius Miles) – 9,000,000
Total Team salaries: $58,187,200
Plan A, provides flexibility by keeping the 15th roster spot open, it provides roster balance, with defined roles for everyone. Even though Nate will say every spot is an open competition, you can tell just by looking at the roster who the starters are, who the bench players will be, and who will be looking good in a suit for the better part of 82 games. This plan also provides something that my first did not, it gives some of our more talented but younger players a role model to watch and learn from. Prince should be able to teach Batum how to play fantastic defense, while still providing a boost on offense. Blake can teach Sessions how to control an offense, and not let it control you, and McDyess can teach LaMarcus how physical you have to be to become an All-star in this league. There is a very healthy mix of veterans and young players that should be very successful.
As for the future after the 2009-2010 season, Plan A actually would reduce the amount committed to players verses my original plan. The total salary committed to 2010-2011 season is $60,118,224, which is before any draft picks of that year, it is also with out Steve Blake or Sergio, they would have to be resigned if the team needed/wanted to keep them. That summer is also when Greg Oden would be need to be extended, and it is the last contract year of Joel, Prince, and McDyess. Blake may be able to be resigned as the back up point for around his current salary or maybe even less. Joel and Prince could also be extended prior to that point to prevent them from being unrestricted free agents.
IV. Conclusions
Once again I ask you to pick apart this plan, because it is only my first, second, observation about what we should do. There are bound to be inconsistencies, and other problems that come up that I didn’t think about. Do we need another wing? Do we need to bring in a defensive coach to upgrade a defense that was middle of the pack last year? Is there something else we should do with the #24 pick? Should we even trade anyone? Can a starting line up of Sessions, Roy, Prince, Lma, and Oden bring Portland a championship? Is this plan any better than the last? I look forward to your thoughts Blazersedge.
1 recs |
61 comments
Comments
i like it but id take dejuan blair instead or try to get him somehow
Oden...Aldridge...Roy.....THE REAL BIG THREE
by CroRupt on May 12, 2009 5:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
oh and sergio is mos def gone id keep bayless
Oden...Aldridge...Roy.....THE REAL BIG THREE
by CroRupt on May 12, 2009 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Sergio
will be gone this summer as well, but with this plan, why keep Bayless if we pick up Sessions?
by usmcr3049 on May 12, 2009 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the idea would be to keep bayless
until we know we can find a replacement. Sergio is basically gone, so we don’t want to trade away our only other backup PG before we have a replacement lined up.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on May 12, 2009 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bayless may not be ready right now...
But after seeing what so many younger guards have been able to do with a good amount of playing time and plenty of leash to learn from their downfalls, I can’t help but remember what ALL we were getting in the draft when Bayless was drafted. Sure, Bayless didn’t have a blow up rookie season, but he barely got a chance. When Nate had no choice but to give him plenty of time (hot or cold, good or bad), Bayless looked pretty exciting and talented. And with this, I can’t help but believe Bayless has just as much if not more game than Ramon Sessions.
No matter how much I read about Sessions, or how many clips on YouTube I see of him, I just can’t get behind Ramon Sessions being THE answer at PG for Portland. He is solid, but for that price… why not go after Raymond Felton?
by Portland Dynasty on May 12, 2009 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather have Bayless than Sessions
Come on you gotta listen unto me,
lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be. ~Johnny Cash
by HurraKane212 on May 12, 2009 6:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I like the idea of a Blake/Sessions PG rotation
I think it’s the only feasible way we get everything we want out of that position. I’m neutral toward Bayless at the moment. I think he’s got the raw talent and the work ethic to do well, but he’s gotta make some serious improvements to be useful. So, I don’t mind trading him if we’re getting a good piece in return. I think Prince qualifies.
I’ve been advocating Prince for a while now, I think he’d be a great fit on this team and the perfect mentor for Batum. He’s versatile for a 3rd/4th option, can handle the ball, plays good D, brings veteran leadership and is just the right age to start for a few years then step aside for Batum. A Prince, Aldridge, Oden front line would just be unfair to the rest of the league.
Although, can’t we land Rubio instead of Sessions? Please?
Rubio
Roy
Prince
Aldridge
Oden
Blake
Rudy
Batum
McDyess (?)
Przybilla
oh man, that looks sweet
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on May 12, 2009 6:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree about Bayless
I love his potential, and even is play this year, moving him doesn’t mean I am giving up on him, you have to give up something to get something.
by usmcr3049 on May 12, 2009 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a minute...
If the Bobcats would give up Wallace to Detroit for Outlaw, Webster and Bayless, why not cut out Prince and just take Crash? Call me crazy but I would much rather have Wallace than Prince.
by AndrewD on May 12, 2009 7:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Prince is 30
Crash is 26
"The brownies,'' Fernandez said after the game. "The brownies are good for me to make three-points.''
by Sabonis4Ever on May 12, 2009 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hell ya
yeah wallace is a beast and four years younger
by samface on May 12, 2009 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not strictly true
Considering how wreckless he is.
Land was created to provide a place for boats to visit.
by The Pirate on May 13, 2009 4:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is what happens when you don't read properly.
I thought it said longer.
Point still remains. Crash doesn’t have the endurance of Prince and will not be as productive in his later years due to his wreckless style. It’s a gamble of, will he stay healthy or will he hit the ground so hard one day he brakes something.
Land was created to provide a place for boats to visit.
by The Pirate on May 13, 2009 4:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nail on the head
Tayshaun is BY FAR the most overrated non-Blazer on this board.
I thought the original “plan for the future” post was great, and again, I applaud the effort this time. But the ideas in this post I strongly disagree with.
First, giving up Outlaw, Bayless AND a first round pick is WAY WAY WAY too much to think about giving up for a 30 year old role player who makes $10 million per season. He’s declining, and he was never nearly as good as most around here seem to think. In fact, you could subtract Bayless or the first round pick and I still wouldn’t do this deal. It’s not even close for me.
This would also be too much to give up for Wallace, but take Bayless out of the mix and we could certainly talk. In any event, Wallace blows Tayshaun away in just about every category except three point shooting. Wallace is 5 years younger, makes less money, produces MUCH MUCH more on offense, is a much better rebounder, and is a better defender.
You guys calling AndrewD crazy… uh, pot? You’re being paged by kettle. It’s NUTS to think Tayshaun would be a better piece for the Blazers than Crash at this point in their respective careers.
Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.
by KP Corleone on May 13, 2009 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have to disagree
I think that package is just about right for Prince. Maybe a little heavy on our side, but I don’t think it gets accomplished otherwise. Prince is also 29, not 30, a small distinction but an important one. I don’t think he is declining either. He put up essentially the same stats as his previous year except this year he was on a team that lost its best player, and had several other players in rapid decline and even a guy who just plain quit.
I haven’t heard anyone say Wallace is a better defender than Prince. Wallace gets more steals, but I think Prince is more fundamentally sound and consistent. The two guys actually make the exact same amount of money and the production on offense isn’t that much different. Considering the current Blazer offensive system relies on the SF to hit the 3, I don’t know how much help Crash would be. Sure, he is a more dynamic scorer than Prince, but he isn’t the kind of guy that we rework the offense for. Prince is also a very low turnover and low foul player, which is quite amazing for a guy that is a primary defensive stopper. I think the most important distinction between the two is injuries. Prince hasn’t missed a game in SIX seasons; Wallace missed 68 in his last 4 seasons, some of which due to concussions (a scary problem).
I prefer Prince to Wallace, but I wouldn’t turn down a good trade for Crash either.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on May 14, 2009 3:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh I forgot to add an important piece
Prince has a championship ring and has been to 5 ECFs. If that isn’t bringing in a veteran with playoff experience I don’t know what would be.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on May 14, 2009 3:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sergio
If we are under the Cap by a few mil or if we wanted to use are trade Exemption we could do a sign and trade Sergio for Chris Wilcox and Answer our back up PF needs that way.
by jlarose78 on May 12, 2009 7:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Doh
Chris wilcox FA no need to trade never mind
by jlarose78 on May 12, 2009 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
plus I am not a huge Wilcox fan
he loses everywhere he goes, and he is not a very good defender.
by usmcr3049 on May 12, 2009 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll pity the team that drafts Jordan Hill, who's a carbon copy of Drew Gooden and Chris Wilcox.
by AK1984 on May 12, 2009 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think...
Wilcox and Gooden are bad players… granted they are not as good as LaMarcus Alrdidge, but I think they hold their own and have been impressed by each of them at least a few times. But there are lots of haters for them here… ?
by Portland Dynasty on May 13, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
More likely
lots of people from seattle, who had to watch wilcox play on a daily basis.
by moflow on May 13, 2009 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i dont think he reminds me of wilcox at ALL
maybe gooden, but gooden isnt a bad player.
wilcox relies on athleticism.. hill has an excellent post game
by GreatOden'sRaven on May 13, 2009 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
that we are giving up too much to get Prince. We would be giving up Outlaw, Webster, Bayless and a 1st round pick. I think if we are going to give up this much we should focus on signifcantly upgrading the PG position not so much the SF position. I don’t have the answer of who to target at PG but I don’t think I would give up this much to get Prince.
by utblazer on May 12, 2009 8:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
That is way too much for a 30 year old player whoever it is in my opinion.
"She turned me into a newt!
A newt?
...I got better."
by Seijeff on May 12, 2009 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the thing is
we overvalue our guys and unless you’re the L@kers it usually takes more than you would like in order to get a guy.
He’s 29, but he doesn’t rely on athleticism, so the decline will be minimal in the next few seasons
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on May 12, 2009 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes I know there will be some who feel the same way you do.
But to me, making these moves, would make the Blazer a championship contender next season, and for the forseable future, so it is worth giving up the players selected.
I also want to mention that this is not my final “plan”, I will also be coming up with a plan that will bring us a PG who should be able to take this team to the next level. They require alot of research to pull together, so it might be awhile. This one came together quite quickly because I was bored at work with nothing to do. :)
by usmcr3049 on May 12, 2009 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tayshaun has about the same PER as Trout
And he had about the same defensive stats this year. The pistons were better on D without him. He’s vastly, vastly overrated.
Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.
by KP Corleone on May 13, 2009 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was looking up team defense of the Pistons with Prince on and off
and you’re right, but I wonder how much that has to do with A) How bad the Pistons were this year and B) Hamilton and Wallace both missing 15ish games.
If Prince has more time on the court than any other player on his squad and the team is much worse than they’ve been and the top 2 players on his team miss that many games wouldn’t that hurt his apparent production quite a bit?
I don’t think Prince is overrated by those of us who want him to come to Portland. I think he just fits our needs really well. As opposed to a guy who has more talent/upside but doesn’t fit as well. I think we’ve seen what the right mix of players can do as opposed to a group of the most talented players (see: Olympic team before 2008 squad, 08-09 Nuggets vs 07-08 Nuggets).
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on May 14, 2009 4:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My reaction was exactly the opposite of yours
As much as my heart wants you to be right, I don’t see why we expect to get a player of Prince’s caliber for what is comparatively our flotsom and jetsom. Don’t get me wrong; I am amazed an thankful for usmcr3049’s well-thought out musings, but, because this league is not the Charity for Trailblazers’ Society, he makes a plausible case why Charlotte won’t be getting entirely gypped by this deal, although it is still a stretch. They would surely want Nick instead of Martell.
I just cannot see us getting a player with this impact through a trade without giving up at least a Joel, a Rudy, or a Nick. Both his original post and this one at least have a degree of plausibility that the so many of the trade idea on this site lack, but I’m still not buying this one.
It seems to me that KP and the Blazers staff have done incomparably well in the draft because they were willing to play off their trading partners’ desire to win now against our own patience to win in the future. Since Roy has announced he wants to win it all next year, the game has changed. So can our organization’s braintrust change their strategy to get the missing pieces now without sacrificing our future? Hats off to them if they could pull off this set of roster changes or the slightly more plausible ones of usmcr3049’s original post. I hope they can. But as much as I want the Blazers to keep Roy and LMA and Greg and Nick and Rudy and Joel, I think the real question is which Blazer who is central to our dreams for tomorrow are we willing to give up ifto win today?
by jaywalker on May 13, 2009 4:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? A player with what impact?
Do you think Tayshaun would come in and drop 20 points a game? Do you think he would revolutionize the Blazers D? How good do you think Tayshaun is?
His stats were those of a league average SF this year. No better. And they’ve been just about the same every year for the past four. The difference was, this year, he went from good to bad on D. Poof! He’s no longer worth the $10 million pricetag, much less what usmcr suggested the Blazers would give up for him.
He played on a team with Sheed, Rip, Iverson, Stuckey, Dyess, etc. AND THEY BARELY MADE THE PLAYOFFS. They were better on D without him on the court. He is a much smarter, much better defending, much less athletic version of Trout.
Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.
by KP Corleone on May 13, 2009 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bloody hell
You’re the one that’s gonna replace Dave, aren’t you?
GREAT post!!!
I know less than half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
by haildablazer on May 12, 2009 9:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hypetheticly
Say Toronto gets the 2nd pick any chance Calderon becomes available?
by jlarose78 on May 12, 2009 10:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Regarding guys used in sign-and-trade deals as a throw-in, Raef LaFrentz is truly the only realistic option.
The Portland Trail Blazers don’t have Bird rights on Michael Ruffin or Shavlik Randolph — which should also be the case for Channing Frye, who’ll probably be non-tendered by 6/30/2009 — therefore, it’s Raef LaFrentz and his immense cap hold of $19,083,750 (i.e., 150% of his salary this past season) who’ll be used in such a move.
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q30
Of course, not renouncing LaFrentz and hanging onto his Bird rights means NOT going under the salary cap. Now, there’s differening viewpoints on the practicality of this — especially considering the worth of roughly $7 million in salary cap space versus retaining the mid-level and bi-annual exceptions — but that’s neither here nor there. Rather, what’s most important to this conversation is neither Frye, Ruffin, nor Randolph are viable sign-and-trade options.
Anyway, no matter a slight miscalculation, you made an outstanding point about Quinton Ross. Even though Ross will command a minimum-level salary of $959,111 as a player who’s got five tenured years in the NBA — which I had previously thought to be six seasons, but was shown to be wrong about that — only $825,497 will count against the cap and on the team’s books.
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q11
Now, you and I do still have disagreements about Tayshaun Prince and Ramon Sessions. With Prince, I’m still of the feeling that Joe Dumars won’t trade the guy unless the Detroit Pistons net a marquee player in return for him. I, therefore, strongly think Dumars would ask for LaMarcus Aldridge in any such negotiations, which’d be a deal breaker in my book. Yeah, I’m not the biggest Aldridge fan around here; yet, even I realize that he’s a better player than Prince at a more premium position.
Besides, the one plausible trade I can envision Prince being involved in would be a blockbuster deal that’s centered around Chris Bosh.
FROM DETROIT & TO TORONTO
SF Tayshaun Prince
PF Amir Johnson
PF Jason Maxiell
PG Rodney Stuckey
15th Pick (e.g., Terrence Williams)
Cash Considerations ($3,000,000)
FROM TORONTO & TO DETROIT
PF Chris Bosh
PG Marcus Banks
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=q9pesa
The Pistons would still have enough money to sigh Carlos Boozer in free agency, too, even though a frontline duo of Bosh and Boozer would leave lots to be desired on defense. Kwame Brown would do a decent job on defense coming off of the bench, but that’s for only around 16 minutes per game.
The Pistons would also need to obtain a cost-effective solution at point guard, because signing Boozer and trading for Bosh means that a point guard who can run the pick-and-roll/pick-and-pop would be a must-have acquisition. My advice to Dumars would be to sign a veteran point guard like Anthony Carter, who’d be a cost-effective solution and great mentor for Will Bynum.
Regarding Sessions, his mediocre defense and horrible long-range shooting are red flags. In a backcourt headed by Brandon Roy, those qualities are two of the most important things that need to be possessed by #7’s teammate at off guard. As I’ve mentioned numerous times, a trade of Steve Blake and Travis Outlaw — along with the draft rights of Euro-bust Petteri Koponen — to the Chicago Bulls prior to or on 6/30/2009 is a much-needed transaction.
Anyway, as it concerns Sessions future with the Milwaukee Bucks, here’s a few ways that the team can cut salary obligations for next season to free up space for re-signing Sessions.
1. Draft James Johnson with the 10th pick and use hardball negotiation tactics to sign him to a deal that’s worth 80% rookie scale.
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q41
http://www.nbpa.org/cba_exhibits/exhibitB.php
2. Draft a point guard (e.g., A.J. Price) with the 41st pick in the 2009 NBA Draft.
3. Trade Dan Gadzuric to the Dallas Mavericks for Matt Carroll prior to or on 6/30/2009; that’ll save $2,049,260 next season.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=d6834j
4. Trade Luke Ridnour and Charlie Bell to the Atlanta Hawks for Craig Claxton and Maurice Evans prior to or on 6/30/2009; that’ll save $2,393,506 next season.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=qqcs3h
5. Non-tender Charlie Villanueva prior to or on 6/30/2009 and, in turn, wish him well in his future endeavors.
6. Wait patiently until Ramon Sessions signs an offer sheet somewhere worth the mid-level exception and immediately match it.
7. Sign a couple of minimum-level free-agents (e.g., Chris Mihm & Ryan Bowen) to fill out the roster.
C: Andrew Bogut ($12,000,000)
C: Francisco Elson ($1,700,000)
C: Chris Mihm (Minimum-Level)
PF: Luc Richard Mbah a Moute ($736,420)
PF: James Johnson ($1,445,680)
PF: Malik Allen ($1,300,000)
SF: Richard Jefferson ($14,200,000)
SF: Joe Alexander ($2,583,360)
SF: Ryan Bowen (Minimum-Level)
SG: Michael Redd ($17,040,000)
SG: Maurice Evans ($2,500,000)
SG: Matt Carroll ($4,700,000)
PG: Ramon Sessions (Mid-Level)
PG: A.J. Price ($442,114)
PG: Craig Claxton ($5,209,454)
Well, uh, that’s that.
by AK1984 on May 12, 2009 11:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
tl;dr
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on May 12, 2009 11:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was being a jerk :)
it stands for too long; didn’t read
it’s internet jargon for when people make reaaaalllllly long comments or if you’re just too lazy to read something or both.
On a serious note, how do you come up with sensible roster moves for teams like the Bucks? Most people can’t even come up with decent moves for their favorite team, let alone the BUCKS.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on May 13, 2009 1:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Norsktroll and I are seemingly the most apt at assessing other teams' needs.
For the Milwaukee Bucks, I know Norsktroll was throwing around the idea of a trade whereby the #10 and either Francisco Elson or Malik Allen was traded to the Portland Trail Blazers for the #24 pick — with the trade exception from Ike Diogu being used to absorb Elson or Allen’s contracts — however, my feeling is that cutting approximately $2.5 million in salary obligations isn’t worth the huge drop in the 2009 NBA Draft.
For the Bucks to slide that far down, I’d expect John Hammond to demand that Kevin Pritchard includes both Travis Outlaw and Steve Blake’s non-guaranteed contracts and takes back Luke Ridnour in addition to Elson or Allen. If I was in Pritchard’s shoes, I’d immediately decline that proposal.
by AK1984 on May 13, 2009 1:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some of these moves don't make sense to me.
There’s no way Rodney Stuckey is going anywhere. By trading away Chauncey Billups for Allen Iverson, Joe Dumars has staked his reputation on the developement of his young point guard.
I also don’t believe that he’s the type of PG Toronto is looking for, anyway. They’re trying to transition to the Euro-style play Coangelo developed in PHO. Calderon is more suited for that vision. Backup PG isn’t a real need for them since they found Anthony Parker to be an adequate fill-in when Calderon was injured during the second half of the season.
If the Pistons were to land Bosh, they would have to abandon their quest for Boozer. Both of them are pure power forwards that demand starter minutes. I doubt Boozer would be eager to jump from a starting PF controversy in Utah to the same problem in Detroit.
I think Ramon Sessions and Charlie V will be out of Milwaukee by next season. Scott Skiles puts such a precedence on individual defense that I believe he sees both players as liabilities.
by BlazerTag on May 13, 2009 12:55 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You make some good points, so it's time for me to explain my rationale.
For the Detroit Pistons, an acquistion of Chris Bosh and/or Carlos Boozer — who’d surely mesh well together on offense, but would be a really bad fit defensively — would unquestionably require a point guard who can effectively run the pick-and-roll/pick-and-pop. That, of course, isn’t Rodney Stuckey.
Regarding Stuckey on the Toronto Raptors, he’d be a backup shooting guard there who’d play behind whoever is obtained to replace free agent Anthony Parker — such as Gerald Henderson with the 9th pick in the 2009 NBA Draft — and point guard Jose Calderon. I still think that there’s a huge possibility of Calderon and filler (e.g., Kris Humphries) being traded to the Phoenix Suns for Canadian legend Steve Nash sometime after the July moratorium, but that’s neither here nor there.
For the Milwaukee Bucks, my guess is that John Hammond overrides Scott Skiles regarding Ramon Sessions. With the Bucks, Sessions weakness of terrible long-range shooting is masked by Michael Redd — although poor perimeter defense is still an issue — and his drive-and-dish ability is a main component of that offense.
Besides, if the Bucks plans on letting go of Sessions, the team will either have to find its solution via the 2009 NBA Draft prior to free agency or through free agency itself. For the Bucks, using its lottery pick on a point guard — such as Brandon Jennings, Ty Lawson, or Johnny Flynn — would be a iffy proposition due to that position usually having the roughest transition to the NBA style of play. Unlike point guards, however, power forwards don’t have as difficult of a time adjusting to professional ball.
Oh, and with regards to free agency, there’s a dearth of point guards on the market. With Jason Kidd and Mike Bibby unlikely to venture away from Dallas and Atlanta, repsectively, that leaves an aging Andre Miller as the best available option. Miller, by the way, probably wouldn’t be interested in playing for the Bucks at the mid-level exception, so that scratches out that idea.
At best, Hammond would have to settle for a subpar stopgap like Ronald Murray — who’ll probably re-sign with the Atlanta Hawks to a one-year, $1,990,000 deal this off-season via the bi-annual exception — under those circumstances. So, unless the Bucks decide to select a point guard with its first-round pick, I’d bet the farm that Sessions is re-signed this off-season.
by AK1984 on May 13, 2009 1:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Will Bynum isn't a pick-and-pop PG, either.
The same rationale you use for Milwaukee to re-sign Sessions can be easily modulated for the Pistons to keep Stuckey (who I think is too good to be a backup).
I agree that Sessions wouldn’t be a good fit here in Portland, but for different reasons. His long range shooting ability doesn’t concern me a bit because he is an able finisher at the rim AND he’s able to draw fouls. I think we have enough three-point shooters on the team already, but not enough who can drive to the hoop and finish.
Rather than have Brandon Roy’s back-court mate stand around the three-point line and watch him iso, I’d like to see what would happen if he had a creative point who could get him some open looks. I bet #7’s three-point % would increase leaps and bounds if he didn’t constantly have a hand in his face. Ramon Sessions has the finishing ability and court vision to be that creater. The two questions I have about Sessions are 1) Can he make entry passes into the post? and 2) Can he limit his turnovers?
We need a sturdy PG that can get the most out of our bigs. Right now the only person on our team that seems to know how to play with pivots is Rudy Fernandez and he’s coming off the bench. We need to establish our post game in the first quarter to become 2nd round-bound, let alone championship caliber.
A huge strength for us this past season was our ability to limit costly TO’s. Ramon Sessions is simply too careless with the ball to ever gain Nate’s trust. I’ve seen him rack up 19-20 assists in a game, but I’ve also seen him get 7-9 TO’s, as well. This is why Skiles wouldn’t let him off the bench when Ridnour, Mbah a Moute, and Redd were all healthy.
I think Sessions would be a nice fit with Brandon Roy, but a poor one for Aldridge, Oden, and Nate.
Also, at this point in his career, the only teams willing to take a gamble on Steve Nash will be fringe contenders looking for an extra push over the hump. A Chris Bosh-less Toronto squad does not fit that bill.
by BlazerTag on May 13, 2009 2:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
We have yet to see what Roy can do while playing next to a PG who can actually create for others.
Roy is the best player in the world with the exception of Incarcerated Mike from Queensbridge .
by Nick Van Excellent on May 13, 2009 2:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All right, let me first hit on your Steve Nash remark with an earlier comment of mine.
The Toronto Raptors are admittedly unlikely to part ways with Jose Calderon; still, it’s easy to see why Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment (MLSE) Ltd. Chairman Larry Tanenbaum may sign off on such a deal — with those reasons being increased ticket sales with Steve Nash and financial flexibility come the summer of 2010 — although it’d still be a longshot."
Yet, I will concede if the Raptors go after Nash that it’d be contingent on keeping Chris Bosh heading into the 2009-2010 season. With Bosh and Nash as headliners, the hope would be that ticket sales would skyrocket no matter the team’s shot at winning it all would be zilch.
Regarding Rodney Stuckey, I feel he’s best suited to be the third guard in a team’s rotation — even though it’s true that Joe Dumars is very fond of him — while playing most of the time off the ball. If the Detroit Pistons do ultimately sign Carlos Boozer, though, then a traditional pick-and-roll/pick-and-pop point guard — such as the abovementioned Anthony Carter — will be a necessary addition.
While Carter has it good with the Denver Nuggets, I nevertheless think he’s attainable for the Pistons due to Stan Kroenke’s stinginess and Chauncey Billups ability to carry the load in the Mile High City at point guard. The Nuggets would have to fill the void left by Carter’s departure through moves like re-signing Jason Hart and signing a low-cost veteran (e.g., Brevin Knight), but that wouldn’t be a big deal with Billups in the fold.
I totally agree with you that Ramon Sessions’ shortcomings of inefficient three-point shooting, occasionally careless playmaking, and subpar defense are all negative traits that’d make him a poor fit with the Portland Trail Blazers.
Regardless, my opinion is that the Bucks will retain him and let Charlie Villanueva ride off into the sunset. In any event, though, more light will be shed on this issue when we learn who the Bucks select in the 2009 NBA Draft. If it’s a power forward, then it’s adios to Villanueva; if it’s a point guard, then it’s adios to Sessions.
Now, on the topic of Portland’s situation at point guard, I’m a card-carrying member of the Kirk Hinrich fan club. I’m not jumping off of that bandwagon, either.
by AK1984 on May 13, 2009 2:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Kirk can fascilitate post offense?
He never had a chance with the stiffs they had in Chicago. It seems like an unknown to me. I really want someone to help our pivots more than anything else.
His defense is solid. He’s better at leading a fast-break than Blake (although that’s a pretty low hurdle). Offensively he chokes in clutch situations, just like Blake. I’m just not sold that he’s worth that fat contract.
Convince me. Bonus points for evidence he will work well with Oden and Aldridge.
by BlazerTag on May 13, 2009 2:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
From a Kirk fan on blogabull who also seems to be an active player and/or coach
And hinrich is still a solid starter in this league, and hinrichs flaws will be more well hidden in portland than in any other place. No blazers edge would have no place for me unless for repetition.
But watching hinrich d up his man, make the right pass (easy and less flashy) i can relate to it, and i can imagine doing it, i can learn and master it like he has.
http://www.blogabull.com/2009/5/11/871863/t-boogies-08-09-award-winners#15594129
I think Hinrich plays less aggressive passes than some of the top penetrating point guards, but more than what Ben criticized as always the safe pass by Blake. He hasn’t played with the most amazing big men, but Miller, Chandler, Curry didn’t have bad production next to him in Chicago either.
"Officiating has to be a science, not an art" - Rick Carlisle
by Norsktroll on May 13, 2009 5:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kirk had some really nice plays passing inside this season.
It’s kind of funny, because one of the criticisms I’ve seen re: Kirk this year is that he comes in the game and “freezes out” Ben – when what I see is that he comes in and runs plays for other guys to get involved. (And yes, I can see the argument that it’s not so great to worry about involving Joakim Noah offensively when you’ve got Ben Gordon to rely on – but the point is that I do think Kirk works to get the inside game going.)
As to whether he does this effectively, you’re right that it’s tough to prove one way or the other given that he’s played with so many non-offensive bigs. How would you even start to get there with easily available stats? I don’t think you can build a case one way or the other without sitting down and watching a bunch of plays between Kirk and the Bulls’ bigs. For what it’s worth, I’ve always thought he’d be great playing with an offensively talented big man. He’s not flashy – I think he’s much better executing established plays than figuring out what to do on the fly, and that’s one reason I think he’d be better in Portland’s offense than in whatever my-turn-your-turn offense Vinny is running that suits Derrick Rose.
The stats this season are inconclusive. Playing with Kirk, all the bigs scored more pts/40 minutes than their overall numbers. Tyrus shot better with Kirk (.508) than overall (.444), as did Drew (.482 to .457) and Brad (.500 to .486). On the other hand, Joakim was slightly worse with Kirk (.533 to .536 overall), as was Aaron Gray (.475 to .491). However, none of this tells us how many baskets were off assists, much less how many were off Kirk passes. The basic player-pair +/- stuff shows that all the bigs had better +/- scores playing with Kirk than their overall average, but that doesn’t tell us anything about what offensive contributions the bigs were making to the game. The team overall had more assisted field goals with Kirk on court than off, but that again doesn’t tell us who’s making the assisted basket, or whether it was off a Kirk pass. And other than what 82games puts out, I just don’t know of anything else stats-wsie that breaks down how players have played together.
Anything else would just be anecdotal evidence (eg, Kirk’s pass to Joakim in one of the playoff overtimes), and how much of that would it take to get past the “Sure, he’s had some good moments” threshhold? I imagine Blake had some highlight passes inside, too, over the course of the season.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
by wjb1492 on May 13, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the info!
That does help, as it shows me that the offense runs while he’s in there. If he can execute plays well, then I guess the impetus would be on Nate and crew to draw some up that get Oden and Aldridge involved in the post.
Rec.
by BlazerTag on May 13, 2009 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want a guy that CAN hit his threes...distributes the ball, and DOES NOT TURN IT OVER....ever!!!
does that guy exist? I dunno, but I’d happily take a aging steve nash before I take a nate robinson, or a ??
I want a better steve blake, who’s quicker and CAN steal the ball with regularity…..
I want alot from the PG possision but I don’t want someone who thinks they can score on every single possession.
I want someone who wants to win at any cost. a guy that will sit even though he thinks he’s starter material. I want bayless to learn how to pass and dribble better.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out burns out farms and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
by faith on May 13, 2009 10:37 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
oh...and hit 3's like rudy.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out burns out farms and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
by faith on May 13, 2009 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
on that thought....
would it do rudy and bayless some good if they were boyfriend and boyfriend over the summer?
stick em in the same gym and make em go at it…………an opifimy is bound to happen no?
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out burns out farms and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
by faith on May 13, 2009 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
get your mind out the gutter tom.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out burns out farms and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
by faith on May 13, 2009 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think we need a PG who hits threes.
If we had a PG that had good court vision and the ability to finish at the rim, Roy would be able to get open looks that (gasp!) he wouldn’t have to create on his own. We could replace Blake’s three point shooting with Brandon’s, as his percentage would go up without a hand in his face.
by BlazerTag on May 13, 2009 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to see Monta Ellis alongside Roy.
But I’m sure Norsktroll will pull out his calculator and yell “Inconceivable!” Heheh.
"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."
by GonzoFan on May 13, 2009 9:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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