Lots of ?s about fouls & blocks & stuff
“The smart approach with the game on the line is to assume that the referees won't call anything.” This was almost a throw-away line from Henry Abbott this morning, but it got me thinking. Wouldn't this be a smart approach all the time? On offense as well as defense? Is there too much focus on “getting the call” or “avoiding the call”? Are the Blazers tentative because of this?
I'm coming at this with complete innocence, never having been a coach or player. I'm throwing it out here so I can learn. I guess what I'm really looking for are good reasons why this would not be a good whole-game approach.
I've heard MB say some players (not specifically Blazers) are “worried about getting his shot blocked”. Do you play differently when there's a proven shot blocker on the opposition? Doesn't his presence mean different game strategy to begin with? Why would you be concerned about getting a shot blocked? It that more shameful than missing a ten foot jump shot?
I've seen comments here, and noticed it myself, that Brandon is now arguing (or commenting on) more non-calls. I think it was even a subject of an Oregonian story – his becoming more vocal with the refs. Unfortunately it puts me in mind of Zach Randolph who often would be slow getting back on defense by arguing with the refs about a non-call. I'm not saying the commenting slows Brandon down, but if he continues to question every non-call it eventually will, particularly when we start playing faster. Wouldn't it be smarter “to assume that referees won't call anything”?
I've noticed that Oden & Przybilla both play more tentative defense when they have a couple of fouls. Travis too. Is this something that is taught? Are you really supposed to ease up a little when you have 3 fouls? Joel certainly learned to avoid his bear hug fouls (remember a couple of years ago when he'd start every game with 2 or 3?) Greg is learning to keep his arms UP. Isn't it more about learning to play better rather than playing to avoid fouling? (These are two different things in my opinion, though playing better can include avoiding fouling.) Again, shouldn't you play assuming that nothing will be called? (Not advocating mean & nasty, just legal defense.)
It seems to me that the only guy who doesn't seem to be thinking much about fouls is Bayless who plays with reckless abandon. And I guess I'll add Blake to that. BRoy is thinking about drawing a foul every time he drives, but he's not assuming nothing will be called - quite the contrary. Is LMA one of the players who doesn't want his shot blocked - is that one reason he settles for jumpers too often?
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16 comments
Comments
It works for utah when they play at home
They foul like crazy all over the place because they know the refs won’t/can’t call them all. As the game goes on the refs let more and more slide. At least that’s what i’ve noticed.
"We really don't reference the rulebook." ~Joe Borgia, NBA VP of referee operations, to Henry Abbot regarding the calling (or lack thereof) of traveling.
by postup on May 11, 2009 4:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
as far as defense goes
if you want to play on the floor you have to play tentatively. It just is self preservation. And no it shouldnt be that way. In a perfect world you play as hard as you can all the time and when you go out its not a let down. but the game is played by humans and egos do have their limits.
brandon has got stuck a few times complaining letting his man score. i almost wished nate would pull him when he does that.
the game has also devolved into trying to draw fouls as opposed to trying to score.
by GreatOden'sRaven on May 11, 2009 4:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
You play defense HARD, but when you are in foul trouble it is the right move to get more tentative. When GO is in there in the 2nd q with 2 fouls, he wont and shouldn’t leave his feet as often to contest a shot. There’s more at stake. The thing is, Greg playing “safe” defense is still head and shoulders above Channing playing HARD defense. He doesn’t need to jump and try to block every shot—and this is something he’s still learning—he can CHANGE shots by being in the game.
To answer a few other questions here:
Do you play differently with a proven shot blocker opposing you? Yes. When you are driving to the basket and a Yao or Dwight is in your path, you try to change your shot and avoid getting blocked. If you’re going at Zach Randolph or Eddy Curry, you can take more of a risk and not get blocked. You approach it differently and you’re less likely to change your shot. Look at Roy driving vs Yao-he anticipated Yao’s defense and changed his shots to account for him.
Is getting blocked worse than missing a shot or something? there’s two aspects here. In a vacuum, they’re very similar. In practice, they’re very different. There is an embarrasment and emotional aspect to a block that changes the environment and mood of a game. The momentum swings in favor of the team that blocks the shot. The crowd will get into the game more and provide a boost if the blocker is the home team and the crowd will silence if its the away team. There’s an aspect of physicality and dominance associated with it.
Second point: On jumpshots no. but it takes years of training to not change your shot when someone is closing out on you. its human nature and its hard to get used to sticking with your mechanics. But, yes, a block on the perimeter is likely going out of bounds and you’re more likely to miss a “changed shot” than the likelihood that you do get blocked. But around the hoop, those blocks could come back in your face (literally, aka rudy) and result in a turnover. And if you change it up, you could get slapped across the arm and draw the foul. Also, changed shots around the rim still have a high likelihood of scoring and blocks happen more frequently so the benefit of changing your shot is way higher.
Why is brandon complaining? There is an element of the squeaky wheel getting the grease in the NBA. If you were wronged and are let it go, nothing happens. If you were wronged and point it out, the refs are more likely to give the benefit of the doubt the next time. There are also (sadly) make up calls in the NBA where wrong calls are “corrected” on the next play. there is an element of “crying wolf” if you overdo it though. Key is to pick your battles with the refs wisely but don’t get completely complacent. Kobe, Jordan, LeBron, Duncan—everyone’s in the refs ear trying to lobby them. Especially coaches. Nate needs to take a page out of the Sloan/Popavich game plan and start doing this more if he wants us to get calls.
Refs like it when you don’t complain, but sadly they aren’t as likely to give calls. On another note, Roy’s gotten less calls since he pointed out that he is getting “star benefit”. Just saying.
you also don’t want to play like therre’s not gonna be a foul. You want to draw the foul and put the onus on the refs to make the call. If there is no call, you keep at the play until dead ball and complain to the ref if you were wronged. thats ideal. don’t give up on the play (brandon’s actually been late getting back on several occasions due to this).
Please, for the love of all that is holy, please stop using the following: "Book it.", "FTW", "Epic" & "Fail".
...no seriously--stop.
by nima on May 11, 2009 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know some of you disagree with me
but my most hated rule is jumping into a man to draw a call. I think that is an offensive foul. I know we have come to accept the reggie miller rule, but its something that should be reversed in my opinion.
I was always taught that when playing defense your body extended from your hands up to the ceiling. If you moved your hands forward you could enter another players space and draw a foul. If you kept your hands straight up and the player jumped into you that was a foul on them or a no call (refs sometimes still call this right) and if you jumped in the air (straight up) then the place on the ground under your feet thru your body to the ceiling is your space. If you jump straight up and put your hands straight up and a man jumps into your legs or body, that is a foul on them.
by GreatOden'sRaven on May 11, 2009 4:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah, and if you get called for the foul anyway when a shooter jumps into your space,
be sure to pull a bruce bowen move and knee them where it hurts the most as they come down.
"There are a few teams you have to watch out for in the fourth quarter."
"Yeah, but Portland definitely is not one of them."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters at the end of the third quarter with the Hornets leading 74-59. Portland later ends up winning 97-89.
"They don't mind him shooting that shot at all. Rudy Fernandez is not that great of a 3pt shooter."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters right after a Rudy Fernandez missed 3pter. Rudy Fernandez finished the game with three 3pters on six attempts.
by Tofu Anonymous on May 11, 2009 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
or put your foot under theirs so they sprain their ankle.
It's = It Is
Its = Belongs to It
by 12sharks on May 11, 2009 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
or you could chris kaman someone
Please, for the love of all that is holy, please stop using the following: "Book it.", "FTW", "Epic" & "Fail".
...no seriously--stop.
by nima on May 11, 2009 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like it
I heard the refs decide if it is a foul or not by the heart that is put into the yell of the offensive player.
by tominhawaii on May 11, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i believe the way you were taught is the rule
regardless of how refs actually call it. i’m pretty sure that is the case. I am fuzzy on what happens if you jump straight up though.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, please stop using the following: "Book it.", "FTW", "Epic" & "Fail".
...no seriously--stop.
by nima on May 11, 2009 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's professionalism.
they’re still wet behind the ears when they’re “bearhugging” and playing stupid becuase of a couple silly fouls. When they turn the corner like Joel has and understand exactly what is expected of them that they finally get it. it’s not about being punked, its not about getting an “in his face” jam. it’s about winning the game and doing everything you can to stay in the game and being that extra someone that puts the cream on the cake.
AND it’s them unsure of nates reaction. sooner than later they’ll see him as a co worker, and not so much as the “sarg” for some it’s been easier to shake, brandon, joel, …shoot I doubt blake has ever had “it” but they’ll shed their fear of coach soon enough.
but that’s what I think.
just young and dumb really.
and about them ref’s….they do what they do, and it’s never really mattered as long as our guys keep thier focus and can play through, and rise above.
right?
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out burns out farms and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
by faith on May 11, 2009 7:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You want to be as physical as possible without fouling…..that’s what the mantra is anyway. I question it though. Bumping and grinding will wear down the opponent, true, but it also wears you down. I think your subs who are only going to have limited minutes and don’t care about fouls should be bangers that smash around and pick up fouls and wear down the opponent.
Your starters should be playing more solid defense without a lot of contact. You don’t want Roy/LMA getting tired.
As far as offense goes, you’re just trying to score. Inside, outside, whatever they’re giving you. If they’re sagging back then bury them with threes. If they’re playing a tight man-to-man then let LMA and Broy kill em.
I'm the only thing I'm afraid of.
by prezofdeath on May 11, 2009 7:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Should you play as if nothing will be called?
Yes.
Can you play this way in the NBA? No.
As far as Brandon goes, it’s a sad truth that he’s discovered. Just like he said, he sees guys like LeBron, Kobe, CP3, Wade, etc in the refs ears from the tipoff, sometimes even before. And those guys get any call they want when they attack the basket. So now Brandon thinks two things: 1—attack the basket and 2—make sure the refs know it when I get fouled. This is also why you here him yell when he drives now. Unfortunately, there seems to be a double standard in officiating, mostly on the offensive end. Big stars can expect anything to be called why most other players can expect nothing to be called.
On the defensive end, I think there’s a fine line between playing like nothing will be called and playing like everything will be called. And the problem is that there is no way to tell what the ref will and will not call. One time a foul is a foul and sometimes a foul isn’t a foul. A player can never know so of course they’ll naturally play more tentatively, not wanting to get in foul trouble, especially when playing against a big star.
Bottom line is that the NBA officiating is far too inconsistent, unpredictable, uneven, and borderline incompetent in some cases. So you probably could play like nothing will be called. But then you’re probably going to foul out. Unless the refs decide to let the teams play. But who knows when that will be and whether or not it will change over the course of the game.
by DrivetheLane on May 12, 2009 8:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Follow up questions:
I don’t follow college basketball as much as the NBA, but I don’t really get the impression that there are half as many questions about college refereeing as there is about NBA refereeing.
1. Is college refereeing viewed with the same cloud of suspicion as NBA refereeing?
2. If not, is it because the nature of the game is different, or is it because the nature of the refereeing is different?
by boppitywop on May 12, 2009 8:45 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
ironic, too
because college basketball is still big business. Yet there seems to be fewer contraversies like in the NBA nor (do I) see many contraversial calls/non—calls.
‘OK Nic, swag on out on ‘em!’
by clinchmobb on May 12, 2009 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
seems to be they call the game as it is
(duke traveling excepted) and the onus is on the players to deal with the call..
in the NBA the refs have to cater to players
by GreatOden'sRaven on May 12, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
less "star" calls i'd bet too
Please, for the love of all that is holy, please stop using the following: "Book it.", "FTW", "Epic" & "Fail".
...no seriously--stop.
by nima on May 13, 2009 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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