Here's my all-time All-NBA Teams.

by AK1984 on Apr 30, 2009 12:25 PM PDT Comment 48 comments

NBA ALL-TIME FIRST TEAM
C: Wilt Chamberlain
PF: Tim Duncan
SF: Larry Bird
SG: Michael Jordan
PG: Earvin "Magic" Johnson

NBA ALL-TIME SECOND TEAM
C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
PF: Kevin Garnett
SF: Julius Erving
SG: Jerry West
PG: Oscar Robertson

NBA ALL-TIME THIRD TEAM
C: Shaquille O’Neal
PF: Karl Malone
SF: LeBron James
SG: Kobe Bryant
PG: John Stockton

NBA ALL-TIME FOURTH TEAM
C: Hakeem Olajuwon
PF: Charles Barkely
SF: Elgin Baylor
SG: Clyde Drexler
PG: Isiah Thomas

NBA ALL-TIME FIFTH TEAM
C: David Robinson
PF: Bob Pettit
SF: Rick Barry
SG: John Havlicek
PG: Walt Frazier

Only three of them aren't considered to be one of the twenty-five greatest players in NBA history, with those guys being Clyde Drexler, John Havlicek, and Bob Pettit. The only reason they made my lists over Moses Malone, Bill Russell, and Scottie Pippen is due to the surplus of centers and small forwards versus the dearth of powe forwards and shooting guards.

I didn't even think about including George Mikan or Bob Cousy on any of the lists, as they both had the luxury of playing before the mid-60s -- except for Cousy, who was hideous during his run as a player/coach for the Cincinnati Royals during the 1969-1970 season as a 41-year-old has-been -- thus, suffice it to say, I'm not a fan of extremely old-school basketball.

My reason for ranking Russell below the likes of Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson is due to his mediocrity on offense. Other than being a decent high-post facilitator who could dish out dimes to cutters -- as he posted a career mark of 4.3 assists per game and a 14.9% assist percentage -- Russell was an all-around inefficient field-goal shooter and posted a relatively low PER throughout his career. Yet, that notwithstanding, Russell is arguably the all-time greatest weakside help defender, although I find it mighty difficult to fathom that a man of his relatively short and lean build for a center (6'9" tall & 215 lbs.) would measure up as a stud man-to-man interior defender this day and age.

On that topic, here's some comments I made about Russell on 12/8/2007.

"The following is an extended list showing how the most overrated player in NBA history, Bill Russell (18.9 PER & 47.1% TSP), stacked up on offense against some of his contemporaries and fellow teammates.

CONTEMPORARIES
Wilt Chamberlain: 26.1 PER & 54.7% TSP
Bob Pettit: 25.3 PER & 51.1% TSP
Neil Johnston: 24.6 PER & 53.4% TSP
Dolph Schayes: 21.9 PER & 48.7% TSP
Walt Bellamy: 19.8 PER & 55.4% TSP
Jerry Lucas: 18.9 PER & 54.4% TSP

TEAMMATES
Bailey Howell: 19.1 PER & 54.4% TSP
Bob Cousy: 19.7 PER & 44.6% TSP
Sam Jones: 18.7 PER & 50.3% TSP
Bill Sharman: 18.2 PER & 49.7% TSP
Tom Heinsohn: 17.8 PER & 46.0% TSP
John Havlicek: 17.5 PER & 49.2% TSP

If Russell played in the NBA today, then he’d be a higher quality version of Ben Wallace (16.3 PER & 47.9% TSP) — as he was admittedly a deft passer for someone his size — but that’s it."

http://sonicscentral.com/blog/?p=1581

If I were to make a sixth list, M. Malone, Pippen, and Gary Payton would be guaranteed to make the cut for it. Yet, at the power forward and shooting guard slots, I'd have a difficult decision on my hands.

For the first open spot, I'd probably end up going with young over old and give Dirk Nowtizki his due over '50s star Neil Johnston -- who put up some very gawdy numbers over his relatively short career -- along with Bob McAdoo (i.e., the man who's credited for inventing the modern-day power forward position as a face-up player on offense with a solid mid-range game) and remarkably efficient low-post scorer Kevin McHale.

The somewhat dismaying thing about the power forward debate, however, is that there's still a few centers out there -- such as Patrick Ewing, Artis Gilmore, and Bob Lainer -- who are better than Nowitzki, Johnston, McAdoo, McHale, et al. It just goes to show, though, that the pivot is a position of utmost importance.

The second opening would probably be decided between arguably the best one-on-one perimeter defender in NBA history, Sidney Moncrief, versus an offensive-minded gunner in George Gervin. Now, given my love for defense and well-known disdain toward a man who I've occasionally compared to the "Iceman" (i.e., Kevin Durant), I'd have to go with the "Squid" in this case.

Vince Carter would've also received some consideration for that spot on the list, too, if only he had put it altogether during his prime. Joe Dumars and Tracy McGrady didn't even receive a second look, either, since basically they're respectively lesser versions of Moncrief and Gervin. Of course, this mini-debate will all be moot as Dwyane Wade continues to rise up the charts.

Y'know, after having thought about it, I've now placed Wade on the NBA All-Time Sixth Team over Moncrief or Gervin. Unlike those two guys, Wade has been a key contributor on a NBA championship team.

NBA ALL-TIME SIXTH TEAM
C: Moses Malone
PF: Dirk Nowitzki
SF: Scottie Pippen
SG: Dwyane Wade
PG: Gary Payton

Okay, I'll go one more deep here in an attempt to at least toss some love toward Russell's way. A part of me really wants to put the über-efficient Gilmore in front of Russell, though.

NBA ALL-TIME SEVENTH TEAM
C: Bill Russell
PF: Kevin McHale
SF: Billy Cunningham
SG: Sidney Moncrief
PG: Jason Kidd

Anyhow, with that noted, I'm curious as to where some of y'all rank the all-time greatest players in NBA history.

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disagree about your assessment of Russell. You can't argue with over 10 rings. His dominance was overwhelming.

by dario argento on Apr 30, 2009 12:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, his 11 rings as a player and player/coach

speaks louder to me than his PER or TSI.

"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice

"Let's go to win the playoffs!!!" -Rudy Fernandez

by koyote on Apr 30, 2009 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

His PER doesn't include defensive stats

blocks/steals weren’t recorded before 1970

"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice

"Let's go to win the playoffs!!!" -Rudy Fernandez

by koyote on Apr 30, 2009 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nonetheless, Bill Russell wasn't a two-way player at the pivot and benefited greatly by being ...

on star-studded teams in a league that only had anywhere from 8 to 14 ballclubs depending on the season.

If it weren’t for Russell (18.9 PER & 47.1% TSP) having teammates such as Bailey Howell (19.1 PER & 54.4% TSP), Bob Cousy (19.7 PER & 44.6% TSP), Sam Jones (18.7 PER & 50.3% TSP), Bill Sharman (18.2 PER & 49.7% TSP), Tom Heinsohn (17.8 PER & 46.0% TSP), John Havlicek (17.5 PER & 49.2% TSP), and Don Nelson (16.1 PER & 54.4% TSP) next to him at different points during his 11 championships in 13 seasons, then he would’ve never had such a prolific career.

Let’s not tell Bill Simmons that, though, for he might have a stroke if someone told him this stuff.

by AK1984 on Apr 30, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

russell initiated the boston fast break with his rebounds & outlet passes

and the celtic fast break was devastating.

sam jones etc got opportunity jumpers and lay-ups which were directly attributable to the fast break. some of these players might have done well elsewhere, but russell was always the key to the celtics.

ignacio

by ignacio on Apr 30, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've always lauded Bill Russell for being underrated as a facilitator of the offense, but ...

his overall numbers on that end of the court are lacking in my opinion. At times, I wonder if Russell could’ve hypothetically been swapped out for someone like, oh, Walt Bellamy and the Boston Celtics wouldn’t’ve missed a single beat throughout the 1960s.

by AK1984 on Apr 30, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've had debates about Bill Russell in the past, so I realize that my opinion resides in the minority here.

by AK1984 on Apr 30, 2009 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

His teammates were unbelievable

6 teammates with a PER over 17.5 is unheard of. I’m not sure I’d go as far as AK1984 did there, but I think its clear that Russell’s teammates excellence on offense was a huge factor in their dominance; There’s no doubt that Russell’s defensive prowess was crucial also, but I would agree with AK1984 in that the edge has to go to the legendary two way players at the C position.

by jksnake99 on Apr 30, 2009 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pffft

Next thing I know you’re going to tell me that Robert Horry isn’t the 2nd greatest player ever.

His fingers beg to differ my good sir.

by Zaig on Apr 30, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

LeBron will find his way to the first team when all's said and done.

I don’t care if he takes the PF spot or bumps Larry Legend out. He’s too good to not be in that group. He does need to get a minimum of 3 rings to get there though.

Travis Outlaw is Mr. Clutch

by two buck chuck on Apr 30, 2009 12:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I expect that LeBron James will eventually surpass Larry Bird on that list, while also joining Michael ...

at the zenith of basketball legends. Right now, I’ve got Jordan at the top in his own tier, Wlit Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar tied together on the second rung, and the quartet of Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, and Jerry West hanging out a notch below those two all-time great pivotmen. For now, Shaquille O’Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Tim Duncan round out my top-ten list.

Now, if Duncan manages to win one more title in the twilight of his career, he’ll push ahead of Olajuwon for that ninth spot. That spot is an important one, too, for LeBron James will ultimately knock one of them out of my top-ten list as he makes strides throughout his career.

by AK1984 on Apr 30, 2009 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

i would put Malone over Garnett personally

and Lebron will be number one SF in the next couple of years with or without rings. otherwise i mostly agree.

Truth never was or can be propagated by fire and sword - Albert Gallatin

by Zaron5551 on Apr 30, 2009 1:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Kevin Garnett jumps ahead of Karl Malone based on defense and that elusive championship ring.

by AK1984 on Apr 30, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reading this PF list

it’s amazing the gulf between Duncan and the rest of the PFs. Maybe it’s just because he’s a de facto center who got pushed to PF because of D-Rob’s presence on the spurs, but there isn’t a single one of these guys that could hold Duncan’s jock at the PF position.

That includes KG. Look at Duncan’s 2003 performance compared to the rest of the Spurs and tell me Garnett would even have made it out of the first round with those guys playing like they were.

by Royster on Apr 30, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think I might

have Kareem on the first team over Wilt and (I can’t believe I’m saying this) Shaq over Wilt on the second team. All three of those guys dominated, but Shaq did it in a much more athletic, tougher league than Wilt and Kareem’s numbers are staggering when you really look at them:

38,387 pts, 17,440 rebounds, 5660 assists, 3189 blocks, 1160 steals.

Kareem scored almost 7000 more points than Wilt. Wilt got about 6500 more rebounds though. And we also don’t know what Wilt’s blocks and steals are cause they didn’t keep track I don’t think.

by DrivetheLane on Apr 30, 2009 1:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

...

um i dont see brandon roy on any list… upsetting

by St. Blaze on Apr 30, 2009 2:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

All-NBA of all time First Team:

C- Joel Przybilla
PF – LaMarcus Aldridge
SF – Nic Batum
SG – Brandon Roy
PG – Steve Blake

All-NBA Second Team

C – Greg Oden
PF – Travis Outlaw
SF – Martell Webster
SG – Rudy Fernandez
PG – Sergio Rodriguez

Goodbye Deke. The NBA will miss Mt. Mutombo.

by prezofdeath on Apr 30, 2009 2:51 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs

Where's Bayless?

Hater.

by Hawthorne Wingo on Apr 30, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's in the coach's hall of fame

Goodbye Deke. The NBA will miss Mt. Mutombo.

by prezofdeath on May 1, 2009 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

whoa, i was kinda' joking, but seriously

can you imagine bayless as a coach? dang. Nate would look like a Grandma with chocolate chip cookies in comparison.

Goodbye Deke. The NBA will miss Mt. Mutombo.

by prezofdeath on May 1, 2009 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you don't have Bill Russell

on your top FIVE All-NBA teams, these lists have no legitimacy.

"Respect everyone, fear no one." -TP

by Arby on Apr 30, 2009 3:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I signed up just to say that very thing

Still good lists other than that.

Russell was only 6 ft 9. He’s your power forward on the first team.

by Emperor_Doom on Apr 30, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you positioned Bill Russell at power forward, he'd still fall behind Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett.

Now, when it comes to comparing Russell to Karl Malone and Charles Barkely — who both left a lot to be desired on the defensive end — it’s tough to do with the whole differences in eras and position on the court.

Either way, though, I’ll concede that Russell would’ve been an awesome weakside help defender — especially with regards to blocking shots, as well as crashing the glass — and high-post facilitator in modern times.

I’d even have a rough time comparing Russell directly with Bob Pettit, since Pettit had guys like Chuck Share, Clyde Lovellette, and Zelmo Beaty beside him at different points throughout his career with the St. Louis Hawks to do the dirty work in the paint.

by AK1984 on Apr 30, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Russell

You gotta have Russell in there. He averaged 15.1 ppg for his career which isn’t special, but you couple that with a 22+Rpg career and 5 rebounding titles and 5 league MVPs(not even counting finals MVPs) and he’s easily on of the top centers. If you have Wilt at 1 and these guys played in the same era, Russell’s got to be in.
Also, there’s a point guard from Canada who might gets some consideration along with a guy named the iceman.
BRoy will be on one of these lists one day hopefully too. Go Blazers!!!

by Blaze of Glory on Apr 30, 2009 3:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Russell part 2

I forgot to mention the two NCAA titles he led his team to and the gold medal he won while team caption. He’s just OK though.

by Blaze of Glory on Apr 30, 2009 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Caption = Captain

by Blaze of Glory on Apr 30, 2009 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

Downgrading Russell based on stats that don’t take defense into account is absurd. It makes as much sense as arguing that Ozzie Smith was a mediocre shortstop because he didn’t hit a lot of home runs.

The people who watched Russell play named him MVP 5 times. He was generally considered one of the two best players in the league for his entire career, despite not being a big scorer. You think writers at the time didn’t notice that he was only scoring 15 ppg? And yet they still made him MVP, over and over. Think about that.

And the argument that he gets too much credit because he got to play with the likes of Bailey Howell and BIll Sharman? It’s like saying that Walton only looked great because he got to play with Larry Steele and Bobby Gross. Good players, but come on.

by Hawthorne Wingo on Apr 30, 2009 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

See the above comments

AK explained why he didn’t include Russell. He picked players based on both offensive and defensive contributions. I also would have included Russell, but this isn’t my list.

I don’t agree with you about Steve Nash getting consideration. I like Nash but he is not one of the top 6 point guards of all time.

"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice

"Let's go to win the playoffs!!!" -Rudy Fernandez

by koyote on Apr 30, 2009 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

If we want to get technical here, the best NBA player ever born in Canada is none other than Rick Fox.

Regarding Steve Nash, however, he’s a one-way player — which is the same exact reason why I docked Bill Russell — and didn’t deserve to win either one of his MVP trophies. In my personal opinion, the South African native is definitely ranked below Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, Walt Frazier, Gary Payton, and Jason Kidd. Chris Paul will ultimately surpass Nash, too, for he’s an even better, genetically souped-up version of Thomas on the court.

by AK1984 on Apr 30, 2009 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

So wait a minute.

John Stockton averaged 13 points, 10.5 assists in his career. Defense was average to good. He gets 3rd team.

Bill Russell averaged 15 points and TWENTY TWO rebounds (not to mention blocks, which we have to assume is in the 3-4 per game range at least) and he gets docked? I understand its a different position but come on.

I think your criterion is far too offensively biased. Defense wins championships man! Ask Bill Russell!

"Respect everyone, fear no one." -TP

by Arby on Apr 30, 2009 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

John Stockton had a career 21.8 PER and 60.8% TSP; on the other hand, Bill Russell had a ...

career 18.9 PER and 47.1% TSP. Rather than basic statistics, I look at peripheral statistics to help tell the story for me. Anyhow, Russell and Stockton played entirely different positions; that makes a major impact as far as I’m concerned here.

In my opinion, Russell is the seventh best center of all-time; conversely, Stockton is the third best point guard of all-time. Aside from their different positions, though, Stockton and Russell are both somewhere between 20th and 25th all-time in my rankings.

by AK1984 on Apr 30, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for ranking me fourth

among small forwards. I think that’s about right for me. I might be better than Dr. J. But he was very long, had great leaping ability, and was on TV a hell of a lot more than I was.

I still feel like a well-kept secret. – Elgin

Brandon Roy: Strengths-remarkably efficient player who appears to effortlessly score and facilitate. Weakness-he’s just a figment of your imagination. - Canis Hoopus

by 22baylor on Apr 30, 2009 3:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

except to Clippers fans

"its tough to play with one eye, unless you're a pirate." Delonte West
"una canasta a Pau en la cara" Rudy

by Honka Playboy on Apr 30, 2009 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

gotta vote against Erving

Maybe my view is tainted by the 4-2 beating we gave Erving’s 76ers, but he had Doug Collins and George McGinnis alongside him, and a talented bench, and they still weren’t as scary as that sounds. And Bobby Gross ended up playing him about even in the series, something Gross simply could not have done against LeBron, Elgin, or Barry.

I like that you have Barry in the final 25. Unlike the Doctor, Barry wasn’t easy to like—but he terrifying to face, the player I dreaded most in his era. No such thing as a bad shot and it was utterly stupid to foul him. I’d actually put Barry ahead of Erving, but Erving’s celebrity helps ensure I won’t have many on my side here.

Hulk (high school nickname; not the name you'd expect for a decent marathoner.)

by Hulk on Apr 30, 2009 3:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Tough to rank Doc

because he played some of his great years in the ABA. Then he came to the NBA and played on that team of head cases and ball hogs in Philly. Agree that they had a lot of weapons (though he was far and away the best of them), but another way to look at it is that they had about 6 guys who thought they should be THE MAN…tough to maximize your potential on a team like that.

by Hawthorne Wingo on Apr 30, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

erving could drive and dunk but his outside shot was never that feared

bernard king (who was quite dominant as sf but his career cut short by injuries) dominated dr j in the playoffs several times.

erving won a title as a 76er only when moses malone was added to the team.

i think you overrate erving, o’neal, stockton, barkley, drexler, david robinson and karl malone.

and five line-ups is too many to judge.

ignacio

by ignacio on Apr 30, 2009 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The '80s had several offensive-minded gunners at small forward, with guys like Bernard King, ...

Alex English, Mark Aguirre, Adrian Dantley, and Dominique Wilkins all being overrated by the masses.

by AK1984 on Apr 30, 2009 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also disagree on Gilmore

Too many dumb mistakes.

Hulk (high school nickname; not the name you'd expect for a decent marathoner.)

by Hulk on Apr 30, 2009 4:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Nice list

Isiah should be over Stockton.

Frazier is about 50 spots too high…good player, but not even clearly the best guard on his own team.

Have to find room for Russell and Moses.

by Hawthorne Wingo on Apr 30, 2009 4:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

John Stockton is over Isiah Thomas due to the Gonzaga grad's shooting efficiency and scrappiness ...

on defense, while Walt Frazier’s defensive fortitude along the perimeter was a catalyst for the New York Knicks championship run in 1970 and 1973. Sure, Frazier had outstanding teammates in Willis Reed, Dave DeBusschere, Bill Bradley, and Earl Monroe; however, “Clyde” was the man who fueled that squad.

by AK1984 on Apr 30, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs