Fouls Clearly in the Eye of the Beholder

by Section323 on Apr 22, 2009 10:47 AM PDT

I've been reading with some fascination the Rockets' fans assessment of the officiating last night, which many have declared to be the worst they've ever seen.

With the exception of the (dare I say it) flop that Roy pulled off in the corner to get a foul call on Battier, I didn't notice much that was terrible last night.

Actually, what I did notice was what I thought were bad calls against the Blazers. When Yao accidentally knocked a Houston player into Joel, who was facing the other way and was called for his 5 foul, for instance.

But I'm also fascinated that we can apparently see the exact same play in slow motion and disagree with it. The foul on Rudy with 1.3 seconds. A couple of Houston fans swear that no one touched him (after viewing it over and over), while a few Portland fans declare he was tripped (after viewing it over and over). I myself only viewed it once and thought, whew, thank God it was Rudy this time and not Travis.

Apparently fans see what they want to see. Could the refs be better, can fans ever be objective, do the refs really cost teams wins? I know I should probably have just let this die, but it seems like an interesting psychology experiment in the making.

Oh, and could someone clear up for me once and for all: are you allowed to hold on to the other guy's jersey? Is this a foul??

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I don't think holding another player's jersey is a foul UNLESS it impedes his progress.

NBA.com says

a. A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an oppo-nent by extending a hand, forearm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a posi-tion that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately.
b. Contact initiated by the defensive player guarding a player with the ball is not legal. This contact includes, but is not limited to, forearm, hands, or body check.

It then has a bunch of exceptions that wouldn’t be fouls, but no where does it mention the jersey thing. You can check it all out here.

Goodbye Deke. The NBA will miss Mt. Mutombo.

by prezofdeath on Apr 22, 2009 10:53 AM PDT reply actions

makes sense

I did look that up previously, but it all seems vague.
Scola did a lot of jersey grabbing in game 1, and it SEEMED like it was impeding LA’s progress, but I guess the refs thought no.
Last night Scola did a few full on shoves and holding down arms without calls. For a while I thought he had the power of invisibility, that the refs just couldn’t see him, but when the ball went off him in the 4th, we got the possession, so I guess he was not invisible after all.
But anyway, I am DETERMINED not to complain about the refs again. After this comment that is. I SWEAR!

by Section323 on Apr 22, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions

swearing is not allowed on this blog.

Goodbye Deke. The NBA will miss Mt. Mutombo.

by prezofdeath on Apr 22, 2009 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions

Invisibility is always broken

if you attack or if you are successfully attacked. He should have become invisible during his shoving so perhaps he had cast Improved Invisibility. I know that he is at least an 8th level Flopcaster so perhaps he has access to this spell?

"Death is not final," Gita says. "If any man thinks that he slays, and if another thinks that he is slain, neither knows the truth. The Eternal in man cannot kill: the Eternal in man cannot die. The soul in man is neither born nor does it die. Weapons cannot cut it; fire cannot burn it. .. What makes you think that you can destroy the soul?"

The Bhagavad Gita

by Idog1976 on Apr 22, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions

Joel pretty clearly flopped to give Yao the 4th foul imho

But that they now make him the poster child of flopping in the NBA is ridiculous. The man gets continually bowled over and pushed away by name-brand centers, and gets few calls. Has he become smarter about trying to take and sell charges? Definitely. And we don’t want to start talking about Greg not even allowed to look cross-eyed at his man.

Whatever, fans always perceive the refs at just being out to haunt their guys. It’s a mutual feeling in almost every game. When have you ever seen a fan say or write “those refs really called a lot of situations in our favor tonight”? Exactly.

That stop and go by Roy is straight sick. I'm calling him "The Flu" from now on. - Wendell Maxey

by Norsktroll on Apr 22, 2009 11:12 AM PDT reply actions

Yeah but Yao deserved about 4 other fouls that weren't called

Notably twice where he left his feet (once in the first half, once in the second) and crashed into Roy when Roy when to the basket. Roy’s a tough guy, and finished both times. But a smaller, less tough player would have been screwed.

I support Takimoto in his effort to support Roger Kieschnick in his quest to becoming the best Kieschnick ever to play professional baseball.

by The VD Special on Apr 22, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions

Ugh the running into Joel's back foul

definitely made up for that flop. What the heck was that? And I loved when they juxtaposed Greg getting all ball and being straight up with Yao’s hitting Roy across both arms, take a guess which one was called a foul and which one was called clean….

From the back of Travis Outlaw's Franz card: Travis leads the team in monstrous thunder dunks, wins awards for post game interviews, and often gets extra points for degree of difficulty.

From the back of Greg Oden's Franz card: Nickname: Jaws. Has an insatiable desire to tear rims apart while cruising the open court, and was once interested in using head-gear for his profession.

by TheOdenator on Apr 22, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions

Joel sold that, big time

I’d never seen anything quite like that from Joel before and I loved it. It adds something new to his bag of tricks, even if he doesn’t use it very often.

When Yao said “After the first game, the Blazers learned really quick how to play physical in the playoffs. All I can say is, they’re quick learners,” I thought immediately of that play.

by Corvid on Apr 22, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions

I wish I could remember his words

but I did see an interview where Joel tacitly admitted he flopped occasionally. He does go down quite often, but I don’t think anyone has perfected a flop where you land on your rear and then slide – you have to have been pushed to accomplish that I’d think.

by jorga on Apr 22, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions

He sure does hit the floor a lot for a big guy

One of my favorite things about the guy is how often he takes charges. But he never, never, flops. Ever. :)

by Corvid on Apr 22, 2009 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions

There are tons of evidence

on these types of cognitive biases.
Fans will never be objective and impartial. If you are, then you´re not a fan.

by Falcao on Apr 22, 2009 11:40 AM PDT reply actions

Everything is subjective. Nature of human existence.

That said, I think I am a fan who is fairly objective. I tend to watch the games analytically. It means I am happy when Portland forces a tough jumper even if Artest makes it. It means I am not happy when a defensive breakdown allows Scola a layup even if he misses it. It means that a three pointer by Rudy is twice as good as a 3 pointer by Brandon because it it puts more pressure on Houston’s defense.

So I think I am pretty objective when I watch the game. I would have to review the game to know for sure, but I thought the refs really favored Portland last night. In the balance, both teams may have gotten around the same number of calls, but we were playing kind of dirty, with lots of flopping and cheap shots. Houston got called for a lot of fouls where there was barely any contact.

Perhaps many of you will disagree…I seem to get that response around here a lot!

by Blazin' on Apr 22, 2009 11:46 AM PDT reply actions

national commentators disagree

. Then, as the game went on, all sorts of calls (some would say, and they’d be right, in Houston’s favor the majority of the time)

-Ball Don’t Lie

And yea I personally disagree with you. I mean I agree with the way you watch the game, I watch it the same way, but what you got out of the game I definitely disagree with.

I thought Yao got away with a lot. When it became clear that the refs were going to allow him to do pretty much anything he wanted, we had to flop. That’s all it comes down to. We saw how they were going to call the game, and the team responded. When they juxtaposed Greg vs. Yao fouls, it was pretty easy to see that was a bad call. Joel literally getting run into and then they called a foul on him? Ridiculous. I didn’t feel we got away with anything, and that the other team didn’t either (with the one exception being Yao), but we did get extra calls that were unwarranted.

From the back of Travis Outlaw's Franz card: Travis leads the team in monstrous thunder dunks, wins awards for post game interviews, and often gets extra points for degree of difficulty.

From the back of Greg Oden's Franz card: Nickname: Jaws. Has an insatiable desire to tear rims apart while cruising the open court, and was once interested in using head-gear for his profession.

by TheOdenator on Apr 22, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions

i think we said the same thing.

We flopped and hacked for our fouls. They got some unwarranted ones for theirs. If it had an impact, it is only because the game was so close.

Kind of ironic, actually, given all the whining Blazers fans did after Game 1. Because Game 2 is the sort of game where a couple of calls really does have an impact.

by Blazin' on Apr 22, 2009 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions

People keep saying that

ignoring the HUGE momentum shift that occurred in the first half of game 1 due to the officiating especially in the paint.

Keep in my there were NINE times as man fouls called on Battier and Artest in game two NINE TIMES. There is no way that they were called correctly in game 1 not even a chance. That being said Portland didn’t respond and crumpled when all the calls went Houston’s way in the first half of game one.

The Bhagavad Gita

by Idog1976 on Apr 22, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions

Excuse me

it was Seven times as many calls not Nine my mistake.

The Bhagavad Gita

by Idog1976 on Apr 22, 2009 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions

i agree

From where i was sitting, officiating, especially in opening quarter in Game 1 favored Houston. You can’t blame momentum shift on the refs though. That’s the choice of the players.

Game 2 refereeing favored Portland.

I did notice in game 2, Brandon stopped fussing at the refs and actually hustled back on defense. So maybe they talked about not letting the refs get in their head.

by Blazin' on Apr 22, 2009 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions

I thought the last foul of the game should have been it

Isn’t it a three second penalty or free throws and the ball if a player is fouled before the in-bound?

by robrun2 on Apr 22, 2009 11:57 AM PDT reply actions

it is supposed to be posession + shots

it definitely should have been because no time was off the clock, and thats the point of the rule, to prevent teams from fouling without losing time.

Frye-lock and I'm on top rock you like a cop

by pklym on Apr 22, 2009 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions

I think it's only 2+Ball if it's before the inbound?

The ball was in the air, which makes it just a normal foul. (Not 100% sure on that, but think I heard that somewhere.)

by Zaig on Apr 22, 2009 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions

The Refs talked it over before the foul shots...

I can only assume this is the question they were discussing. They must have determined the ball would have been touched by Fernandez had he not been fouled ot the ball was in the air??? I don’t know. I am fairly certain in the regular season the call would have been 2 shots and the ball.

PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04

by tssbro on Apr 22, 2009 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions

Yeah I was going berserk in the stands

over that call. No time off the clock = 2 shots and possession. Given the Brooks was unconscious I felt it was a critical call. Luckily it didn’t matter.

The Bhagavad Gita

by Idog1976 on Apr 22, 2009 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions

This whole discussion is fascinating

I left the game feeling lucky we had overcome poor officiating instead of falling prey to it like we did in Game 1. I had chalked up the Rockets frustration over foul calls to not being able to do what they did in the first game. My main issue is still with Yao not being called for fouls and jersey-grabbing by many Rocket players that I can see from the 200 level. Other than that, which is huge in this series, Game 2 calls seemed to even out.

I was certainly not expecting Houston fans to feel they got jobbed. It is a little unclear on the replay but in live action, it sure appeared Rudy was pushed down. The replay looks like he was tripped but the call probably would not have been made if the ball wasn’t thrown to him or if it had happened in the first three quarters of the game.

By the way, there were two three second calls on Joel in the second half. Watching the plays in regular speed, if he was in the key for three seconds on either of those plays it was exactly three seconds. On one of them he had one foot in and was on his way out and they called it. I don’t know if those were make up calls or if the officials had reffed a high school game the night before…just sayin’.

PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04

by tssbro on Apr 22, 2009 12:20 PM PDT reply actions

Same thing with laker fans and the Rudy incident

They just don’t see anything wrong with that play. I can’t believe it.

"The brownies,'' Fernandez said after the game. "The brownies are good for me to make three-points.''

by Sabonis4Ever on Apr 22, 2009 1:48 PM PDT reply actions

There were two notable "home team" calls in the last couple minutes...

A blown out of bounds possession call and another play in which Roy went over Yao’s shoulder and arm for a rebound that should have been a foul that wasn’t.

But there are going to be missed calls every night, given the nature of the game…

That said, the people who still couldn’t see St. Roy’s foul after 2 replays are……………… really something.

Pontiff of the Pryz for Prez Posse...

by timbo on Apr 22, 2009 2:39 PM PDT reply actions

You are unbelievable

The foul wasn’t on the Yao/Roy tieup. It was on Scola for something that happened BEFORE Yao and Roy tied up.

As for that, Roy and Yao got there at the same time. That would be a no call almost every time unless a ref was feeling bored. Regardless, THAT WASN’T WHERE THE FOUL WAS CALLED AT.

by Zaig on Apr 22, 2009 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions

i like the way you say that!

“really something.” Is there a better way to put it?

by Blazin' on Apr 22, 2009 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions

You didn’t see ANY fouls? I refuse to blame any loss on officiating, but the CLEAR flop by Pussbilla against Yao, which isn’t even the officials fault, changed the entire flow of the game. I don’t care if Yao had a horrible game, he still commands a TON attention and completely took the Rockets out of what the wanted to do.

Why can’t you win by not cheating? Play the damned game and don’t fake it.

by nolimitnp on Apr 22, 2009 3:29 PM PDT reply actions

Boom!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZF7wvTadCI

"I don’t have the first clue who he is talking about, because all I worry about is Jerome." – Jerome James, on comments by coach Nate McMillan about Seattle SuperSonics players being selfish.

by Devenex on Apr 22, 2009 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions