It's Time
The second half Gameday Thread will be along momentarily, but it's time to pause and talk for a second.
This is the latest in a collection of games in which we've played incredibly poor defense in the first quarter, particularly on the interior. We've come out without focus, gotten burned on pick and rolls, made non-scorers into dunkers. This time it was to the Oklahoma City Thunder. Giving up 37 points in any quarter is a no-no, but against this team and in the first quarter when you're supposedly at your most fresh and ready to play? This isn't working.
We really need Steve Blake back. That's the best step possible. But up until the time when he becomes available we need to do something different to start the game.
Since the issue is interior defense and defensive continuity more than offense, I'm disinclined to make a move at the point guard or small foward spots alone. Batum is a good defender. Travis is really the only viable alternative at small forward right now and he's not really comfortable at small forward. Sergio isn't ideal but he's got more experience than Bayless. Bayless is better defensively and on the attack but I don't see that switch making either a huge difference or the point that needs to be made.
What I'm working around to is that I think it's time to go with Przybilla over Oden at center again. I'm not saying our woes are Greg's fault entirely, because they're not. However he has been a contributing factor. He needs to be a paint defender and he needs to be a rebounder. Lately he's been neither, particularly in the opening stanza. A lot of it is recognition and comfort but he's also lacked the energy he has in his best outings. Przybilla would be better on the pick defense and a surer rebounder. Oden is still the future of this team but we need to get better starts to games in the present, not just the future. This might light a fire under him and it would certainly send a message to the team about the current playoff run being important and nobody being sacred.
I don't see this as a permanent move. In fact one of the reasons I favor doing it now is that you have some natural schedule breaks coming up. This game ends a road trip and begins a homestand, which is in itself a break. The All-Star break isn't far away, after which maybe you get a fresh start with Greg. You can always switch back then. A couple games of change maybe be enough. Besides, Oden could probably get as many minutes overall as he's currently getting, just in different places.
If in the context of bringing in Przybilla you feel you have to add more offense to the starting lineup in the form of Outlaw or Bayless I'm good with that too. We might need to relieve the pressure on Roy and Aldridge that a Przybilla-Batum-Rodriguez lineup could cause. But I believe that the answer starts on the defensive end both in terms of getting stops and getting boards, and Przy is the go-to guy right now for both.
Having watched the last couple weeks, even with plenty of wins, I'm not comfortable riding out the string into All-Star weekend without a shake-up. Better now than in another month when we're in the thick of the playoff run.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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Is this
also part of the baking cake? Are KP and Nate ok with losing games to get greg ready for future years? If so, then this is something we may just have to grin and bear
also need martell..
our 3P threat is nil….
our defense needs a facelift, and maybe this is where marty, pryz, and stevie would be a step…. but i don’t know how big of a step this would be…
what i’d like to see? Brandon Roy, the ALL Star.
Martell won't help this year anymore before the playoffs
At best he will have 15 games before the playoffs when/if he returns in March.
He never had much D
He certainly has the body and if healthy has the athleticism, but it would be something new to use it effectively. He also didn’t dribble better than Travis last year. So no better driving to the rim which would be needed, too, in addition to his outside shooting.
The cake is a lie. Trade the cake!
He had been working on it
In the off-season, his goals were higher consistency shooting and improving his D. He has the ability to guard smaller 2s and possibly 4s, so switches may work to his advantage.
I'm not saying it can't work
I just wouldn’t expect it anymore this season. I have seen Josh Howard come back from a smaller foot injury than Martell, and it took him over one month to come back close to his former self, much less add something to his game. Our season could be over once Martell is ready to start.
The cake is a lie. Trade the cake!
by Norsktroll on Feb 6, 2009 8:13 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I see what your saying
That’s the one thing worrying me, but he potentially has that ability to offer.
Obviously
you weren’t paying attention him at the end of last season where he had spurts of genious and his albeit 1 pre-season game. I regard him from those performances, because that’s the last I had seen from him aside from off-season stuff.
Truth is, no one knows. But I want him back, I think he is an unsung hero. I think whether he will be immediately effective or not, he will be another option for us and help our depth.
To back up dpnim's numbers here
Webster shot 50% from downtown over his last ten games before getting shut down with his heart condition, including three 20+ point nights and a 22-5-3 night and a 14-6-3, impressive for how little he handled the ball.
I admittedly have a huge Webster man crush, but he was really breaking out when he had the irregular heart beat.
No defense in the first quarters
No offense in the 2nd. This is a carbon copy of the Dallas game.
Is the coach just not getting the team focused or motivated?
Do the Blazers think they are better than they really are?
Are they not hungry?
I'm a little confused by your tactics
by oderiferous emanations 74 on Feb 6, 2009 6:31 PM PST reply actions
its tough but highs and lows are expected.
And OKC I’m sure had this game circled on the calendar.
"There is one way that cutting off trade with a partner could help you," Wolfers explains. "And that's if you're an idiot. If you used to trade a lot with one partner, and they always got the better of you because you don't know what you're doing, then you're right, you would be better off not trading with them any more."
by Outlaw is Rejector on Feb 6, 2009 6:31 PM PST reply actions
Never thought you would advocate a change in the starting lineup
I think Oden is blamed for something, which I believe is a coaching issue. Nate Mcmillan is not a good defensive coach,
BINGO, BANGO, BONGO
by blzrfan on Feb 6, 2009 6:32 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps we could mimic Boston and get a top of the line defensive assistant coach
and turn the defense over to him.
Problem is, Nate THINKS he is a defensive coach.
I'm a little confused by your tactics
by oderiferous emanations 74 on Feb 6, 2009 6:33 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
there needs to be shake up
oden benching. that’ll improve the defense, but if you argued in the earlier post that this is a learning year anyway, you’re losing a lot — you’re not teaching your guards to find the big guy. He’s been open a ridiculous number of times. plus, you’re not going to fix the fact that front course leaks like the titanic.
by bsurge on Feb 6, 2009 6:39 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
because what'll happen is pres will get fouled out
oden/joel. it makes no difference overall. it worth a try.
stepping back — are you saying that you’re number 1 pick, touted for his defense (“our holes in defense are the ones greg will fill”) is so bad that he’s benched…twice?
there is something fundamentally wrong with this team. its back to expected losses in the last few weeks. total energy change.
Przybilla
hasn’t been picking up fouls as often this year.
And Greg WILL fill our defensive holes, but he’s still a rookie.
—Dave
one way to find out
try it. I’m skeptical.
so when will he learn/fill the holes. X point in the future…and when will he learn how to do that.
all I’m saying is either make this a learning season, with winning a bonus, or go for the wins. greg is a big part of the future (or you need to re-evaluated that). how’s he going to get the minutes from the bench?
and... what about greg's "psyche"
..fairly fragile a few months ago. ….
“man, I got benched second time in 40 games. … in a game where the KD destroyed yes. …”
my feeling is that you lynch the entire team… no just GO.
sorry .. one more..
mental toughness…. lacking in blazers in the last .. two weeks.
though of course… pryz is in, and now blazers a making a run…. or they got tired of watching the other team party in the 3rd quarter
Time for Greg to grow up
To hell with the kid glove treatment. It’s time to man up and stop the sad sack routine
What I am annoyed with
is the rebounding
Blazer's fan since '84, Spurs fan when they are not playing Portland.
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A
That's what I was thinking
I think Dave gave us homework and we all have to read that new post, then they’ll do the second have thread.
It's not offensive until someone reads it.
The problem with switching Oden and Pryz is that Pryz has no touch right now because of his wrist
by Jiggamant on Feb 6, 2009 6:40 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Greg has two good wrists
and no touch, so nothing really lost there.
by Lance Uppercut on Feb 6, 2009 6:50 PM PST up reply actions
If jumpers were bumpers
the Blazers would monopolize the auto parts industry.
YGTMYFT
Jerryd Bayless has two emotions: Kill and Win.
"I want to put points on your face."
-Rudy to Pau Gasol
NorrisHopper30: "someone injure pubert jones"
I don't know what's more pathetic
The start of the game by the Blazers, or the attempted 2nd half comeback without playing any defense.
BINGO, BANGO, BONGO
"We do not deserve to win this game"
So. That worked against the Hornets. It’s all I can do. Now we need Sophia to threat turning off the game.
wow that arena deserves respect
"There is one way that cutting off trade with a partner could help you," Wolfers explains. "And that's if you're an idiot. If you used to trade a lot with one partner, and they always got the better of you because you don't know what you're doing, then you're right, you would be better off not trading with them any more."
by Outlaw is Rejector on Feb 6, 2009 6:42 PM PST reply actions
false
Jerryd Bayless has two emotions: Kill and Win.
"I want to put points on your face."
-Rudy to Pau Gasol
NorrisHopper30: "someone injure pubert jones"
by rockingharder on Feb 6, 2009 6:43 PM PST up reply actions
how freaking embarassing
im embarassed to be a blazers fan, i can handle a loss to OKC if we tried hard and they played well, but this is rock bottom
by Yawnie on Feb 6, 2009 6:43 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Let's give some respect
The Thunder are playing very very well. This team blew out Utah and should have beat Denver twice.
OK, now back to discussing the Blazers “defense.”
Boomshakalaka
More like "Portlan"!
Jerryd Bayless has two emotions: Kill and Win.
"I want to put points on your face."
-Rudy to Pau Gasol
NorrisHopper30: "someone injure pubert jones"
by rockingharder on Feb 6, 2009 6:44 PM PST up reply actions
that joke never gets old
Love it.
Greg Oen
LaMarcus Alrige
Branon Roy
Sergio Roriguez
Ruy Fernanez
Boomshakalaka
hey, it works!
Jerryd Bayless has two emotions: Kill and Win.
"I want to put points on your face."
-Rudy to Pau Gasol
NorrisHopper30: "someone injure pubert jones"
by rockingharder on Feb 6, 2009 6:47 PM PST up reply actions
Easily the best would be
Jerry Bayless or Ike Iogu.
is this an inside joke?
The most hated Blazer is like the least hottest supermodel - Sabonis4Ever
by Philthyanimal on Feb 6, 2009 8:55 PM PST up reply actions
there are going to be some low, low jersey contest scores tonight
Jerryd Bayless has two emotions: Kill and Win.
"I want to put points on your face."
-Rudy to Pau Gasol
NorrisHopper30: "someone injure pubert jones"
2nd half thread is up
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
this is horrible
we are getting shelled
There is probably no more terrible instance of enlightenment than the one in which you discover your father is a man — with human flesh.
Paul Muad'Dib - Dune (Frank Herbert)
My Translation: My Dad is a dude just like me, and my sons are dudes like me also. I love that.
Season Tix: Section 315, with my sons
It was supposed to auto-post
at 6:30. Apparently our auto-posting is all screwed up and we can’t depend on it. Double-posted the last game, didn’t post this one until late. We’ll just forego the use of it I suppose.
—Dave
You have mislead me :(
Elizabeth had a partner and he had a rap from the cops, Him and Lenny Suckerpunch were just out Tooling around
by Lizzy Lowblow on Feb 6, 2009 6:52 PM PST up reply actions
The Bayless 1st unit, Sergio 2nd unit thing is just common sense
I think Oden for now would be a better fit on the 2nd unit as well. Nate is a hard head, but after the overwhelming evidence supporting your lineup, maybe he’ll relent, and give it a shot.
why did they have to put a new net up?
The old one just came lose, they could of fixed it.
There is probably no more terrible instance of enlightenment than the one in which you discover your father is a man — with human flesh.
Paul Muad'Dib - Dune (Frank Herbert)
My Translation: My Dad is a dude just like me, and my sons are dudes like me also. I love that.
Season Tix: Section 315, with my sons
I'm just movin' on, Bro
Elizabeth had a partner and he had a rap from the cops, Him and Lenny Suckerpunch were just out Tooling around
by Lizzy Lowblow on Feb 6, 2009 6:53 PM PST up reply actions
a 3 here woulud be huge
There is probably no more terrible instance of enlightenment than the one in which you discover your father is a man — with human flesh.
Paul Muad'Dib - Dune (Frank Herbert)
My Translation: My Dad is a dude just like me, and my sons are dudes like me also. I love that.
Season Tix: Section 315, with my sons
It's time to trade for that lock down small forward
give Detroit a call now KP
I agree
I think it’s time fans realized that someone they like might get traded to bring in someone of value. I feel that Bayless has the highest trade value, therefore, he should be used to bring in the highest caliber guy possible.
It's not offensive until someone reads it.
Doesn't Rudy have a high trade value?
It makes more sense to trade from a position of strength than of weakness.
Good point
I think the teams owes it to Sergio to send him with Rudy if Rudy gets traded. Bayless has more potential and is younger.
It's not offensive until someone reads it.
I’m thinking all the blazers just hurt their trade value tonight. Bummer effort. They are paid waaaaay too much to be turning crapy teams into playoff teams. There’s something going on with the team chemistry that noone is telling us about.
one game isn't going to blow anyones trade value.
The most hated Blazer is like the least hottest supermodel - Sabonis4Ever
by Philthyanimal on Feb 6, 2009 8:50 PM PST up reply actions
Give Oden a legit shot....
If Oden does not get at least ten shots a game then the team has failed. If Roy or LMA have to average 15ppg while we try this then so be it. After he gets this chance, then I will agree with your argument.
by swg777 on Feb 6, 2009 8:24 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Sorry, that's a horrible idea.
It’s pretty easy to rail on Greg for lack of rebounds but I suppose it’s pretty easy to ignore the fact that he’s getting boxed out by two guys because the other team knows the rest of his teammates generally wont stick behind with him to get the rebounds he tips out. That was also one hell of a run on sentence there.
This has been happening pretty regularly since the Christmas day game against Dallas. Everyone freaked out at Greg (and at one point Joel too I believe) because JJ Barrea because he got eight rebounds and I think Greg got four. What everyone seemed to want to ignore in that game is Greg literally had two people hanging on him (at one point Dampier was on him holding one of Greg’s arms down and no call was made and I believe Brandon Bass was on him as well, it was quite hilarious) but Greg still managed to tip the ball up and out towards a teammate. Too bad Steve, Travis and even Brandon decided to stand there flat-footed and watch JJ and other 6’5 and under Mavericks run right by them and get the rebound.
It would also help if Nate didn’t have the team switch on the pick and roll (everyone can keep saying he doesn’t advocate that but the team switches between 80-90% of the time and every team Nate has had has done this including his Seattle veteran teams. In addition he’s never had a team finish above 17th in defensive rating his entire coaching career so either he’s really bad at drawing up defensive schemes or his players don’t listen to him and neither is endearing to Nate as a coach) and leave Greg out there (you know a rookie still learning to retrust his knee after major knee surgery) against guys 7 inches shorter (at least) and 5x as fast as he is (or in Paul’s case 1023910231x as fast). I know Nate says he doesn’t want Greg to drop back like Shaq did and instead learn to guard on the perimeter and avoid ‘bad habits’, but isn’t switching 80-90% of the time implementing bad habits in another way and on the entire team?
And finally if Joel starts on this team in the playoffs, and if we fail to continue to properly utilize Greg on offense we will not win a playoff series. I’d be surprised if we won a game. Shooting the amount of jumpers we do in the playoffs will be immediate failure especially without a post threat (since we don’t seem to want to establish LaMarcus very often) to make the perimeter defenders sag off. Greg, as an unpolished rookie who is being misused by his own coach, already is getting doubled team because the majority of the centers in the league do not have the strength to keep him out of the post. We should be working on this in every game as Greg even now is able to draw fouls and double teams and that works to the advantage of not only Greg’s development but our other jump-shooting starters on the floor. But I guess shooting jumpers and ignoring the 7’0 280 pound guy literally standing wide open under the basket jumping and waving for the ball (go watch the start of the New Orleans game against, David West and Hilton Armstrong left Greg wide open at one point in the first five minutes to double/shadow LaMarcus) only to have Brandon, Sergio, Travis etc completely ignore him and pass it around the perimeter for a contested jump-shot.
I lied, that isn’t finally.
Finally, I’d really appreciate it if someone in the ‘media’ besides Dwight Jaynes would publicly speak about the questionable substitutions, play-calling, offensive and defensive schemes, and the fact that Nate himself has PUBLICLY conceded a matchup to another team before the game EVEN STARTED. A lot of people want to point out the short comings of all the players so I’m curious as to why everyone but apparently Dwight Jaynes wants to ignore Nate’s questionable coaching (and his impressive throwing his players under the bus after some games without taking responsibility. The Laker game to start the season was in particular quite impressive for under the bus throwing).
by TSE on Feb 6, 2009 8:34 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
It's not a horrible idea........
Giving someone you have such a substantial investment in the ball more than five times a game is reasonable to me.
Change coaching strategy/practices not lineups
I think the team needs to be retaught basic defensive principles. I see the defensive problems as beyond Greg or anyone player. They are not a well coached defensive team at the moment.
Completely disagree with you Dave
Not too often do I read something Dave has written and think, “this guy is just reacting”, but he managed to suprise me. This loss was not Oden’s fault, the slow starts the Blazers have had in the past few games are not Oden’s fault, hell even most of the fouls he has picked up are not his fault. I have said this many many times this year, as much as my fan side wants to believe, this team is not built to have any playoff success in the NBA. They might make it, but they will get swept most likely and still get good tee times. The reasons for this were the same on opening day as they are today, only they are now way more visible.
1.) Defense, the perimeter defense is still the Blazers biggest weakness, none of the Blazers, (yes not even Batum) is an above average one on one defender. The fact that Batum, a 20 year old rookie is considered the teams best wing defender speaks to this. He does his best, and has good instincts but he lacks muscle, and experience, both of which are more important when it comes to the playoffs. Interior defense is not much better, and some of that can be placed right at Oden’s feet. He was suppose to anchor this team on the interior, blocking shots and filling space to prevent penetrating guards from doing too much damage. However he has been slow to rotate and react, causing him to pick up more fouls than blocks. LMA is equally to blame, he spent all preseason talking about improving on defense, yet he has done nothing to actually improve. He still had bad defensive posture, and gives up inside position too easily, and he is still soft on the defensive end.
But finally the biggest problem with the Blazers defense, is Nate’s inability to coach this team and make them understand and execute what he knows they have to do. Nate was a good defender, and obviously he can coach defense, (as he did for Team USA) but he has been woefully bad at communicating to this Blazer team the type of defense he expects to be played. In Quick’s story about pick and roll defense Nate told Jason exactly what he wants the team to do, yet the team does nothing even close to that, infact they do the exact opposite most of the time. That is a failure in coaching, either the team has tune him out, (I don’t think this is the case) or the delivery of his defensive message is causing the message to get lost.
2.) Nate’s attempt to coach Oden this year like he “thinks” he will be able to play in 5 years. In that same story from J. Quick, Nate talked about Oden at length, and gave insights into why we constantly see Oden out guarding the Chris Paul’s of the NBA. Basically Nate wants Greg to be able to step out on an opponent PG, while still recovering to the paint to block a shot or rebound the ball. Greg might very well be able to do this in his 5th NBA season, but asking him to do it his rookie year is too much, infact I believe this coaching decision is 50% responsible for not only Greg’s fouling problem, but 100% responsible for Greg’s lack of blocks. Nate wants Greg to be able to do something that he just can’t do yet, and no matter how much he wants it to happen, it won’t this year. One of the hallmarks of good coaches is that they put their players into situations where they can succeed, but Nate is doing the exact opposite with Greg, he is putting him impossible situations, which causes Greg to pick up fouls, be out of position for rebounds, (this is why he is better at offensive rebounding than defensive rebounding) and out of position for blocks. Instead of benching Greg, maybe Nate should let Greg be Greg, let him camp in the middle and be the clog everyone hoped he would be last year. Stop trying to make Greg into someone else before he has even established himself in the NBA. If I had a time machine I would go back and make KP select Durant in the draft, but not because I want KD, I would do it to show the NBA what Oden can be like if he given confidence by his coach, and allowed to be himself. My guess is Oden would be a much more effective player on both ends of the court. Speaking of offense…
3.) This team’s lead leading offensive is masking the larger problem, (they might not lead the lead in offensive efficiency anymore, but they are still up there) They don’t get many easy shots, because they don’t work for them. Roy is amazing at one on one basketball, Outlaw is as well, but one on one basketball is taken away in the playoffs, so that won’t get you very far. With two post players like LMA and Oden, this team should be a league leader in Points in the Paint and dunks, yet if I looked those stats up I am sure the Blazers would be in the bottom half of the league. All of that is coaching. There is no excuse for Oden averaging only 6 shot attempts per game, he should have 6 attempts per half minimum! And when he goes out, LMA needs to stop shooting 18 foot fade-a-ways and take it inside. One thing LMA has done is developed his inside game, and the team needs to force him down there and force feed him the ball. And everything he fades away from contact, Nate needs to call him over and punch him in the gut, to remind him that this is a physical league, and if he wants to be and All-Star he needs to dish out and take that punishment.
This team should also be pushing the ball up the court looking for easy buckets. Every good NBA team does this, even the Spurs and Hornets do and they play just as slow of a pace as the Blazers. Easy baskets are the key to consistant scoring in the NBA, no team will be on every night and shoot 50%. But by getting to the rim consistantly any team can be consistant. The Blazers currently live and die many nights by the 3 point shot, the problem with this is that even on a break away, we see Roy, Outlaw and especially Rudy fade to the 3 point line instead of the rim. I half expect to see one of those 3 make a steal then race down court on the break away 1 on none, stop and take a 3 instead of dunking it, and yes it is THAT bad. There are 2 reasons a player should go to the rim instead of the 3 point line, A) It is a higher percentage shot, and B) the player is more likely to get fouled, which causes not only freebee’s from the line, but possible foul trouble for the opposing team. Shooting the 3 should only be there on the secondary break.
The amazing part of the Blazers offense to me is their low turnover rate, because this team has only a few above average passers. Rudy, Sergio, and Roy. I can’t think of another player on this team who is above average, not Blake, Bayless, LMA, Oden, Joel, Batum, and for sure not Outlaw. This is shown so obviously in the teams inability to make a simple post entry pass, and a little less obviously by the teams inability to make the lob pass. If Oden had been drafted by the Hornets, he would have been an All-Star the first season he played just from Chris Paul lobs.
I really want to go on and on, but this is already too long and buried in a thread, so it won’t even be read by many. This was a terribad loss, and was the closest I have come this year to turning my tv off during a game. The thunder are bad, very bad, but the Blazers made them look like the champs tonight, I can only hope the team learns from this butt-whoppin and matures.
by usmcr3049 on Feb 6, 2009 9:16 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
Thank you.
you said this more eloquently than I did.
by TSE on Feb 6, 2009 9:35 PM PST up reply actions
This is not a reaction to one game
this is about needing more solidity with the starters and perhaps a different look with the second unit as well. We haven’t started games well for a while now and Greg hasn’t had a standout game in a while either. Some people are mistaking this for an “it’s Oden’s fault” post, which it’s not. Rather say this move is the best stab at making a meaningful, workable change right now and it happens to involve Oden and Joel. Now clearly if Oden were coming out on fire and producing every game that wouldn’t be the case, so you can say it does have to do with Oden’s play. It also has to do with Joel’s play and what he can do for the rest of the starters defensively and on the boards. And, as I said, it’s not meant to be a permanent solution. This is kind of like the coach taking a technical when things are going poorly. Something has to be shaken up in the next few games and the players aren’t showing signs of doing it themselves. (Although I’ll wager dollars to doughnuts a team meeting comes out of this loss.)
If Blake would get back I think that would ease things on Oden and the rest of the starters. But until then a little more experience and guaranteed production in the starting lineup wouldn’t hurt.
—Dave
Oden has been playing well lately
in his last 10 games he has avg 11 points and 7 rebounds. And when he was given playing time and shots he was posting double doubles. The Blazers need to feed Oden, he is young, and when he gets it going offensively he becomes a better defender, just like most rookies. 6 shots per game is rediculisly(sp?) low for Greg, his teammate are not looking for him, or can’t make the pass to get him the ball. In this game the start really can’t be blamed on Oden at all, because if i recall right he and sergio were taken out and replaced by Joel and Bayless with the score tied or down by only a few. It was that second unit that let the score get out of hand.
I am sorry Dave, but your post screams reactionary, and it also is directly Blaming Oden for the slow starts. Why is Greg the first place you look? Why not look at the coach? Why can’t Nate get his team ready to play from the opening tip? Why not look at LMA and Roy who both have come out in recent games almost uninterested in playing defense. I have seen Roy caught watching while letting a back door cut result in a dunk more times in the last 10 games, then in the entire first half of the season. The mental focus of this team has not been there these last few games, which is a sign of a young team that needs a break, or a sign of a coaching staff that isn’t doing a very good job. I think it is a little of both.
I don’t want Nate fired or replaced, he is the right coach for this team. But he is young just like the players, and he needs to improve for this team to do anything in the playoffs. His biggest improvement needs to be in his handling of Oden, he needs to put Greg in situations where Greg can be effective on defense, and feed him the ball on offense. The shot charts should read Roy 16-20 shots, LMA, 14-18 shots, and Greg 10-15 shots after most games. That is 40-53 shot attempts from the 3 players who are expected to lead this team to a championship some day. We need to develop Greg now as an offensive force, the mistakes will happen, that doesn’t matter, he needs more shots and touches to learn the NBA game, not less like you are suggesting.
Stunned
I’m amazed that you think Oden is such a problem Dave. I believe that the team not properly utilizing Oden is the bigger issue. These guys don’t know how to deliver the ball to him. A simple pass down in the post seems to be too difficult for our guards to execute: Pick and rolls? Nope. Alley oops? High lows? Not a chance.
I know he isn’t playing as well as usual, but how well would you play if your team mates looked you off just about every time down the court, even when you have a total mismatch. Our smalls have been forcing up off balanced, contested shots without any ball movement while Oden misses one or two shots (while drawing fouls) and he never gets another touch…something isn’t right with that.
My question: is this a coaching issue, or is this a player issue?
I'm not sure why you have to blame Sergio for the first quarter defense
even though the Thunder run started after we brought in Bayless.
I’m assuming that’s your point about how we need to get Blake back?
A rare inconsistency Dave
Ben points out in his recap that the game was lost in the 7-12 minute point in the game after substituting Joel for Greg and others. He notes that at that substitution time we were even with OKC. Yet you then conclude that Joel should start so Greg can come in off the bench. Am I missing something here? You guys are usually in sync.
A lot of people are anxious about getting to the playoffs yet nobody thinks we are a contender. Joel is great when healthy but even then will certainly not take us to a championship unless Brandon > MJ comes true. Greg is the one player we must season. My theory is getting used to each new building and each opposing player takes a couple of years. He has played well at times and poorly at others. But he is trying and apparently nearly everyone agrees that he has the skills to be dominant. So if not now – when does he get that experience? Playing against subs or against the best at their freshest seems like different experiences.
We are starting two rookies and no one with over three years experience. The expectations are ridiculous if anything beyond where we are – 30-19, playing to capacity crowds at home, learning and improving. I think the loss tonight is better for learning than a blowout win.
Finally the national press will crucify Greg and KP for being a bust if he is benched. I believe that is the term they will trumpet. Am I so wrong?
whoo, Katy bar the door! - Maurice Lucas anticipating Greg Oden's development
Oh, the national press
will definitely label him a bust if he is benched. In addition anyone thinking at all that Greg would feel less pressure being put on the bench is, to be polite, out of their mind(s).
If you (not you personally lee, but a general you) were replaced at your job and told you’d be second string would you (again general you) be sitting there relaxed and OH YEAH TIME TO COME IN AGAINST THE SUBS OO AHH! or would you be like “Well darn I lost my job I have to work even harder what did I do wrong oh my god what must I do to correct it MUST WORK HARDER CANNOT FAIL CANNOT FAIL”. It’d be a total failure on all levels in my opinion.
In addition having Joel start and play more minutes than necessary (a big reason I am all for Greg using all six fouls no matter what) is a poor idea in my opinion with his wrist. We will need him healthy in the playoffs off the bench and having him play more minutes than necessary only risks aggravating the wrist. Or having it Tyson Chandler’d again.
You're only referencing half of Ben's sentence
it finishes (basically) “because Roy and Aldridge were hitting enough jumpers to keep us even”. That’s not a solution to the underlying issue. It’s a band-aid which, as we see most games when jumpers are the staple, doesn’t work for long. It so happened that in this game they were hitting jumpers in the first few minutes so we stayed even. They could have just as well hit them later, the whole game, or not at all.
—Dave
In other words
it’s completely possible for the score to have been tied at 14-14 and for the underlying points made here to be accurate.
—Dave
not really
Basically what all that means is if you replace Joel with Oden, there is no difference. Both played equally bad defense last night, (and both were placed in equally impossible situations by Nate) LMA and Roy hitting jumpers on offense masked the problem for 1/2 a qtr but then it was exposed. Maybe that is because Greg went out? Joel is not an offensive treat, Greg is at least that, which keeps 1 sometimes 2 guys inside to protect against him, leaving more space for LMA and Roy to hit jumpers, Greg goes out, joel comes in, and that space is less causing them to start to miss.
That is just as possible as your theory.
Nah. Thrilla's not much of an offensive threat
but he is a major offensive rebounding and putback threat. No team in the league leaves him uncovered.
by howlingfantods on Feb 7, 2009 11:44 AM PST up reply actions
Greg gets more offensive rebounds than Joel
2.8 per game for Greg in 22.8 mins per game.
2.2 per game for Joel in 20.1 mins per game.
And don’t try and convince me that Joel is more of a threat on put backs than Greg, especially with his wrist broken.
as to your post below, Greg gets double teams in the post because most teams don’t have someone big enough to stop him one on one. He is not turning the ball over alot, (his turnover rate is less than Joels too) so that arguement is hogwash. Joel is better at one thing than Greg right now, defensive recognition, Joel can see plays developing and react sooner because of his experience. Greg has him beat in every other basketball catagory, once he gets that experience he will be completely better. But he needs playing time to get it, he needs shots to get it, he needs his teammates to pass him the ball to get it, and he needs his coach to understand he can’t do everything on defense just yet, and allow him to focus on what he can do and do it effectively. That means no more witching out on picks, that means falling back like Shaq did/does, it means keeping Greg in the game by not causing him to foul pg’s over and over.
Not only that but Greg's offensive threat gives Brandon and LMA open shots without being double teamed
I don’t think that is true for Joel.
whoo, Katy bar the door! - Maurice Lucas anticipating Greg Oden's development
Greg's offensive threat....
Gosh, I’d like to see that. I really would.
I don’t live in PDX, so I think I get the opposing announcers more often than you guys do. They often go on and on bewildered about why their guys are doubling Oden, since he’s such a negligible threat offensively and he has enough trouble scoring against single coverage.
but to me, it’s pretty obvious. teams double him not defensively (to try to prevent a score) but offensively (to try to induce a turnover that leads to a fast break opportunity).
by howlingfantods on Feb 8, 2009 2:51 AM PST up reply actions
USMCR, it's not a question of who's a greater
offensive rebounding threat.
You argue that there’s a beneficial secondary effect to having Greg in the game. Greg’s more of an offensive threat, thus he helps space out the floor for the perimeter guys, because his man has to stay home on defense. And you argue that Joel is not an offensive threat so his man can roam, hence it’s harder for the other guys to score when Joel’s in the game.
The point is that’s factually untrue – Joel uncovered kills teams because he hits the glass. So his guy has to stay home. So your argument about beneficial secondary effect just doesn’t hold water.
by howlingfantods on Feb 8, 2009 3:04 AM PST up reply actions
Also, Greg *does* get doubleteamed at times in the post
but it’s not because he’s such a major offensive threat. Coaches sometimes double him because he’s prone to turnovers when he doesn’t have much room to operate. So the thinking is that it’s worth it to scramble your defense by doubling if we can get this guy to cough the ball up.
If someone’s so TO prone that opposing coaches double aggressively to induce turnovers, not to try to get you to miss a good percentage of shot attempts, that’s not really a net positive, you get what I’m sayin?
by howlingfantods on Feb 7, 2009 11:48 AM PST up reply actions
Except he hasn't really had
fumbling problems since mid-December at least.
Also you’re right no team in the league leaves Joel uncovered. But then, only a few have two people boxing him out on rebounds. Most of the teams we have faced in the last two months have been boxing out Greg with two guys.
by TSE on Feb 7, 2009 1:28 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
two people boxing him out?
that would be illegal defense. Which gets uncalled once in a while, but hardly at significant enough rates for teams to do it as a planned strategy.
USMCR’s argument only makes sense if thrilla was really such a pushover that they could let his man roam on defense. No team does that. It’s an argument that’s unreflected in reality, hence not an argument that deserves a lot of evaluation.
by howlingfantods on Feb 8, 2009 2:47 AM PST up reply actions
You raise an interesting question but - not so fast
Greg this year on a 36 minute basis is averaging 2.3 turnovers per game. Compare this to some top big men and it does not look so bad:
Shaq 2.8 career 3.6 rookie 2.6 current year.
Duncan: 2.7 career, 3.1 rookie, 2.3 current.
Hakeem 3.0 career, 2.9 rookie
Patrick Ewing: 3.1 career 3.5 rookie
Granted all of these comparative players scored more than Greg but still they are not out of sight.
whoo, Katy bar the door! - Maurice Lucas anticipating Greg Oden's development
compare tos to usage.
completely not meaningful absent usage ratio
by howlingfantods on Feb 8, 2009 2:44 AM PST up reply actions
Start Przybilla on the road
Start Greg at home. I don’t care how dumb that sounds. It’s not like we give the ball to Greg anyways.
Karma
that is the saddest
post I have read in a while.
It’s not like we give the ball to Greg anyways.
we have a possible once in a generation type center, and so far Nate is wasting that opportunity.
He touched the ball on something like 9 of the first 10 possessions.
got a couple of assists. One shot attempt waved off because Roy got whistled for a foul. Didn’t do much else.
by howlingfantods on Feb 7, 2009 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
funny
I can only remember him touching it in the post once, Giving Greg the ball at the top of the key like Nate loves to do with our centers means nothing, so those touches don’t count. Greg needs to run the floor, set up shop just outside the paint, then back in and get the pass on the money and make his move or pass out. Those are the possessions that make Greg a part of the offense, and give him energy and confidence.
I think it was something like the first four or five possessions, greg touched it in the post,
next three, he only touched it in the perimeter, then around half the possessions he was touching it in the post, then he got subbed.
Once we got behind by 20 points, they did stop going to him much. But then again, he did have a total of 2 points then, so it’s kind of understandable that they didn’t really see him as the answer that night.
by howlingfantods on Feb 8, 2009 3:08 AM PST up reply actions
Where is the LEADERSHIP
from Roy and Aldrige. This should be unacceptable and that message should be loud and clear. I dont see them taking that stance
We learned Blake's Value
It was a lousy game. Rookie – itus broke out all over, and Segio couldn’t buy a bucket either. It also high-lighted the recurring issues we have. Batum is a starter at SF because Outlaw isn’t. And Batum is too inexperienced to be a starter. Game after game the SF position just doesn’t produce the results a team needs – which isn’t Batum’s fault. He’ll be good one day, but he was thrown into the fire. Sergio is not ready to be a starter, and neither is Bayless. Some nights they give a good effort – and on others – they just disappear. Oden seems to have an energy problem. He’ll go through a good streak – and then a bad one. One night he looks quick and effective – the next he forgets to take his cement shoes off. It’s one thing to have a tough time against Shaq or West – quite another against nobody and nobody.
The problem is, there isn’t much you can do about it – and that includes Nate. Swapping Pryz for Oden may be the only option. Blake will solve one problem – but he’s not back. Webster would help on the other, but he’s out til mid-March. In fact, for all practical purposes, he’s lost a year, because there won’t be enough games left to play himself into shape.
So, we’ll enter next year with the same group – and the same questions. We won’t know if Webster is the answer at SF until mid-way through next year, and the Sergio-Bayless issue will still be around.
But, the bottom line is that we certainly learned Blake’s value last night. If Sergio or Bayless are not in the game flow – the entire system bogs down.
Sergio got 3 of 6 for 8 points in 21 minutes.
Not exactly an offensive explosion but not “couldn’t buy a bucket.” Considering the guy you’re pining for averages 11 points in 30 minutes, I’m not sure why you think that’s the difference maker here.
by howlingfantods on Feb 8, 2009 3:10 AM PST up reply actions

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