Let's Stand Pat. Agree?
by sPresley on Feb 4, 2009 11:07 AM PST
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PrintLook, I know trades are sexy but doesn't anyone else out there see the value in standing pat?
We've been playing great lately now that the rotation is pretty much set, and we've found a great role for Travis in backup power forward. Travis is thriving and continuing to get better and I don't think I want to see him go unless we get a legitimate all-star in return. Chad Ford suggested a trade of Blake, Sergio and Frye for Hedo and Anthony Johnson. Are you kidding me? Blake's shooting at the other guard spot opens up driving lanes for Brandon, and Hedo is barely as good as Trout. Am I the only one who loves the way this team is constructed as is? I think it's genius, and when Martell gets back we'll have even more shooting to space the floor, and with Travis' newfound role it doesn't create a rotation nightmare. In fact, the only expendable players we have are Sergio, Frye and Diogu, and Sergio is the most talented and and has the best chance to turn into a great player of the three. Conveniently, Frye and Diogu come off our cap next year leaving us with a solid core of young players with another year of experience. The only trade I see us making that would really make us better would be this:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=1705~851~454~2015~3025&teams=22~22~27~27~27&te=&cash=
Thoughts?
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Before the deadline?
Or before the draft? Is it even possible to trade him this summer before he officially expires?
My thoughts are down in this thread:
posted only 14 hours ago. So are many other people’s thoughts.
You haven’t been here long, so the following is a good must read:
Posting rules (I think you’re fine here)
Since fanpost space is so limited, keeping the same conversations in one place really helps. Welcome aboard though.
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Ahhh
My bad maybe this belonged in the trade drawer. But seriously the point I wanted to make was that I want to see these guys play and I think we can do damage as is.
What about this?
If nothing else presents itself and assuming Paul Allen take the hit, trade Raef’s expiring contract (and his insurance money) for another expiring/expirings (players who could either keep, or more likely waive) and a future first round pick or two.
I figure, if nothing else, we can at least stack some assets.
Any good expirings out there to propose?
I think it's funny that you want us to stand pat
and then you suggest a trade. I think we should stand Pat up against the wall and give him a pat-down.
No trades = no problem, as far as I’m concerned. You don’t pull a baking cake out of the oven and add eggs or flour. Doing that is a recipe for disaster, or the Isiah Knicks.
Quick’s last chat indicated a possible trade in the works for a player who would make us a contender this season. I don’t even want a trade like that unless that player is under 30.
Bake the cake, don’t fake the bake.
what about Grant Hill?
With Martell’s return this season increasingly in doubt, and Phoenix potentially looking to blow up the roster, what about making a small trade for Grant Hill for the stretch run and playoffs? His deal is up this summer, so I wouldn’t give up too much for him, but a combo of him and Nic at the SF spot to close out the season might be a good one. He’s a team guy, and could bring some veteran playoff experience to the roster.
He makes about 2 million, so either Sergio and Shav would work, or for those her prefer, we could send off Blake and bring back some other small contract in addition to Hill.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
I think Hill made it pretty clear he would retire if traded
by southern oregon on Feb 4, 2009 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
didn't see that
thanks
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Trades are to much fun to speculate
I probably agree with your “stand pat” position, but even you put a trade proposal in your “no trades” post. Here’s one that gets the Magic a point guard and Portland a shooter + intriguing foreign prospect:
"C'est un autre monde, un autre univers mais c'est magnifique." --Nicolas Batum
Portland would be trading for Reddick, Orlando would be getting a PG
"C'est un autre monde, un autre univers mais c'est magnifique." --Nicolas Batum
I hear Vazquez might actually come over next year. Part of me wonders if that is why they don’t seem that worried about Turkoglu possibly leaving. Vazquez would play PF and Lewis could move to SF where he belongs.
by danielfarrell on Feb 4, 2009 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
Vazquez
I would say he is definitely the centerpiece of this speculative trade. Although Redick is a somewhat interesting player, too. His 9.79 PER is no match for Shav’s 22.50, though!
"C'est un autre monde, un autre univers mais c'est magnifique." --Nicolas Batum
An argument against standing pat.
Championship teams do not just grow into Championship teams. They are built into them. There is nearly always the addition of some crucial piece that pushes teams over the hump, not the sudden development and blooming of players that does it.
The Spurs Drafted Tim Duncan and were immediately elite.
The Lakers traded for Shaq and were instantly elite.
The Celtics… well, you know.
The Rockets picked up someone… I wish I could remember who… oh well.
Semmingly an Exception: The Bulls. They seemingly grew into a Championship team as their young players developed from relative unknowns into some of the best in the land. But to use this as an argument for the Blazers “Standing Pat” would be silly. The Bulls made a relatively big move every year, and the year immediately before they emerged to beat the Pistons and then the Lakers, they traded for Cartright, drafted Purdue, and added the Zen Master as their coach. This after losing three straight ECFs to the Pistons. We aren’t there yet.
I heart taxes.
Teams that traded for players
needed those players. Our players are so young, we don’t even know who they are, what their celing is, or whether they might in fact turn out to be exactly the players we need. We do know that there is a very good chance that could happen, else KP would not have brought them in.
I’m not against a great trade. If KP makes a trade, I believe it would be at least a good one. It’s just that I don’t see anyone out there we could get without gutting our team or giving up young players when we don’t even know who they are. I’m fine with that.
We’re seeing individual growth, team growth, and significantly more wins each year. Good enough for me.
Bake the cake, don’t fake the bake.
I took on a similar arguement a ways back
http://www.blazersedge.com/2008/8/5/587263/why-we-don-t-need-veterans#
Scroll down to my long post near the bottom.
Your point about Duncan, Shaq, Clyde, and the Celtics reiterates my point that these player’s elite level of talent had a lot more to do with that team winning then the acquisition of some “experienced veteran”. And Duncan was developed and bloomed, so you are counteracting your own arguement. It is no different than us drafting and developoing Roy, LMA, and Oden.
So, your argument to me only holds water if we are making a trade for an all-star level talent. If we are trading for someone who’s going to be our 5th cog, then there is no evidence to support that being the difference between not winning and winning a title, and if we do get there it will be a lot more to do with home growing our talent.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
No contradiction.
Duncan was an anomaly in his NBA-readiness.
I totally agree with your stipulation/requirement for making the argument holding water. I have not advocated nor proposed a trade that would bring in any one besides All-Star level players with only one exception: I think that improving defense at the point guard position, even if it meant not necessarily attaining an all star point would be a big improvement. If we had a player that could shut down D-will or Chris Paul we would instantly be a better team.
That said, I don’t see any trade being necessary or prudent if it is not for an All-Star quality player; no worries in my mind about shot sharing, chemistry, or any of the other half baked criticisms of having too much talent on the floor at any time.
I heart taxes.
HAHAHA you guys are hilarious
Lets see, the Blazers have one of the richest men in the world as the owner, so money is not a problem. The NBA is rigged so that any team can keep as many of their players as they want for as long as they want, so keeping the current nucleus is not a problem.
The Blazers have 2 huge holes in the starting 5 (PG and SF); not to mention that their 2nd scoring option and starting PF is incapable of getting to the free throw line, is as insecure as NBA players come, and disappears for long stretches of games.
They also have 6 very desirable players who would be worth a hell of a lot more to any other team than they are to the Blazers (Travis, Jerryd, Rudy, Sergio, Martell, and Batum) and a $12 Million Expiring contract……..
but you guys want to stand pat. Unreal. Go ahead. Stand pat. Lose in 5 games in the 1st round of the playoffs. Bring back the exact same team next season to find that LMA cannot coexist with a now dominant GO, find out that BRoy is still great but maxed out, and that the rest of your players still need time to develop, so you get eliminated in the 1st round again.
NOW IS THE TIME FOR THE BLAZERS. They have nothing to lose.
by John Park Williams on Feb 4, 2009 1:04 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
i agree ..
Now is the time to pick up a real pg and consolidate our core. We have way to many players that need to “mature”. I think Blake, Sergio, and Outlaw have reached their ceilings and it’s time for a trade.
that's one opinion
The alternatives:
Nic/Martel blossom into exactly what we need at the starting 3
Bayless turns into the perfect 1 for us
LMA improves his consistency and his FT rate
LMA and Greg form a formidable combo at the 4 and 5.
Roy continues getting better.
These are all exactly the opposites of what you suggest. Certainly you could be proven right on all accounts, or the opposite could be. More likely, you are proven right on some and the opposite comes true on others. The problem then becomes guessing which ones and making the right trades. It’s a gamble at this point. Why you ask?
20,22,20,23,21,24,24,23,22
Those are the ages of the Blazers in question. In some cases, we really don’t know yet what we have. It’s very possible that this roster is capable of winning titles in the future as it stands, if the players develop like they potentially can.
So, there IS something to lose. That something is that we trade away the wrong guys before we know what they are. I’m not saying we shouldn’t make a trade necessarily, but it’s not exactly the no-risk proposition you make it out to be.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
by douglast on Feb 4, 2009 1:14 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
Good reply
But…. I have seen nothing to suggest that Martell will ever be a legit NBA Starter. I know hes young. But if he had gone to UDub or whereever and played the same way, I’d have the same opinion. You know what else?, I think he knows it too. Thats why he agreed to such a team friendly extension.
Batum has shown flashes for sure. Hes one of my favorite players. But come on, if you have the chance to trade him, Bayless and Raef for Caron Butler you have to take it? How could you possibly argue that its better to theoretically win in 2 years that to win now?
I have really liked Bayless. I LOVE his intensity. But, if Baron Davis shows hes no longer hurt between now and the trade deadline, would you not trade Bayless and Raef for Baron? I mean, imagine a motivated Baron Davis for Portland? Suddenly Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups and Steve Nash no longer become problems. I know I’m in the minority on this, but Baron, Broy, Rudy, LMA, GO as a finishing 5? Few teams can match that.
Again, I’m not saying LMA is bad. But, currently, he may be the worst #2 option of all the teams in the Western Conference Playoff picture. That is saying something.
I see what you’re saying, its not completely no risk. But, I think the odds of the Blazers making a big trade and becoming a contender THIS YEAR is far greater than the odds of the current Blazer team winning a title in 3 years. I just dont see anyone developing to a point where they take us over the edge.
by John Park Williams on Feb 4, 2009 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
30-17
I do not know how long you have been watching this team develop but a 30-17 record at this point in the season certainly suggests that they have been improving even this year, not just over the last few years. A lot of that is due to drafting quality players and developing them. Oh and by the way, Bob Whitsit(sp) liked to do big trades and bring in big names. I did not see any rings come from that little experiment.
by BlazerFanFromDenver on Feb 4, 2009 2:29 PM PST up reply actions
IMHO
You are completely underestimating the players, the coaches and the management of the Blazers. KP and staff are great at what they do, and you better believe they’ve always had the plan that they are now executing. McMillan and the other coaches appear to be good coaches regarding player development, something that shouldn’t be overlooked on such a young team. Finally, the players on the roster are so young and have so much potential, that, if they grow and adapt together, will be an elite team in the history of this league.
Check yo self before you wreck yo self flanders. This team is for real
Yikes
Well in two or three years Batum and Bayless could be perfect compliments on OUR championship-caliber team. It’s great to speculate adding “stars” to this team but you also have to consider fit. Baron Davis would absolutely destroy this team in every way because his skill set is such a terrible match. People like to compare us to the Bulls but we’re so much better constructed than they ever were. They never had a go-to player or a post presence. I think we’re really good now and can only get better with the addition of solid veterans who FIT. People say our biggest hole is small forward… in what way? If we added a scoring small forward that would take shots away from Greg, Brandon and LaMarcus, not to mention Travis. If you look at what KP has done, the team is structured perfectly. See:
Blake- shooter to spread the floor for Roy.
Bayless- guard with the ability to drive and get to the line.
Keep going down the line and you’ll see that we have very few players at any given position that do the same things. Blake/Bayless, Roy/Rudy, Martell/Travis, and so on. I’m not saying we should never make any more moves but I am saying that its not time to package all this talent for one all-star who wont really help us win.
Now is not the time for the Blazers
Most of the team is young unproven talent. Chasing a title this season is a pipe dream. You’re living a pipe dream. With pipes. And dreams.
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Feb 4, 2009 3:09 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I can't stand Pat.
I mean, the way he treated Vanna as if she was just this sex object — it demonstrated a complete lack of respect. What? Oh, never mind.
by CatMan2 on Feb 4, 2009 1:49 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
IMO funnier w/out the last two sentences.
Its like the drawing you did in sixth grade that was pretty cool when first done, but then you had to just shade in here… add here… and then it wasn’t as good anymore.
I heart taxes.
You're probably correct
but I usually write for an easier audience. I knock ’em dead with lines like
perl -i -pe ‘s/FOO/BAR/g’ *
Last chance to get value for RLEC
This is our last chance to get real value for RLEC. This summer it’s no longer a large insurance paid expiring contract but cap space. Sure we can trade with cap-space, but RLEC is worth more because it’s insurance paid.
Adding another piece and giving up a little of our bench talent won’t hurt. I’m convinced next year we won’t be able to keep Sergio, Blake and Bayless all happy. There are too few minutes for all 3 of them. We also have Frye who may still have a little value as a tall guy whose shown flashes in the past. We also have Batum, Webster and Trout who will all be fighting for time.
Add something now and we will still be able to let players develop a bit and then trade for future picks or another player in the future. Don’t stay pat if it hurts the team and we can’t maximize value from RLEC.
Quite honestly
it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to hang on to Raef unless Paul Allen would like to earn a little bit of money back to offset the luxury tax he now has to pay. Trading him for a guy like Vazquez would be intriguing, and you know how KP likes to stockpile assets. Maybe Rudy and Sergio could convince him to come over here…
yes and no
In a sense you are right – if we can turn RLEC and spare parts into a starter, great! pull the trigger.
But the beauty of the situation is that KP has the luxury of not HAVING to do a deal. He can afford to wait for the right deal to come along before the deadline, and he can afford to not settle on a lesser deal and instead roll into the summer and try to swing a trade using the cap space to absorb salary.
It’s the ideal position to be in – one of strength.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Agreed
I think that at the minimum RLEC and Frye need to be dealt this month. That’s $15-16 mil coming back Portland’s way in salary. Goals? Improve the perimeter defense, and/or add an expiring contract for 2010 and play this game again in 12 months, when many teams will be looking for salary relief heading into the big FA derby.
Sergio is next on the deal-him list, depending if Blake is healthy or if KP gets a better defensive PG in the RLEC deal (Hinrich, etc)
I love what Travis adds down the stretch of games. Fearless clutch shooter. The SF logjam never materialized this year due to Martell’s foot injury. Unless another GM blows KP away with a deal for Outlaw, keep #25 (I reserve the right to waffle on this…since Trout’s about as consistent as Middle East politics…)
I really like the idea of
tradeing RLEC for another expiring contract and a future 1st or two. that makes sence to me.
This idea has floated here several times ...
… but I think it over looks other salary cap factors. Namely the fact that Portland will be extending Roy and Aldridge (and possibly Sergio) and they will also have to decide whether to keep Blake and Travis, wh both will be UFA’s.
In other words, even with an expiring contract, Portland will have no significant cap space in 2010.
hakkaa päälle !
But they can use the "newly acquired EC"
To make a deal next February, then go over the cap to extend their own players in the summer of 2010. Ideally, the player who is acquired wold be of more “use” to Nate than Raef has been, but the end result would be the same as the RLEC situation is now…to make a deadline deal in 12 months and grab a final piece to the puzzle before all the cap-room dries up
RLEC is much more valuable to cash poor teams now
I like the idea of turning Raef and this years first rounder into Rubio next year
Yes, don't trade any rotation players
Chemistry is good right now, why mess with it? Suddenly all the players we wanted to trade are playing lights out.
Blazer Fan
I like our team.
Let’s keep it.
"It's like, 'Urrrrrrgh!'" Rodriguez says, his cupped hands turning into fists. "It is a good feeling. Good feeling."
There's one deal I would do...
I’ve spent way too much time scouring other rosters looking for candidates that fit age, character, temperament, trade possibleness, and skillset without many candidates at all.
This trade intrigues me and doesn’t seem entirely ridiculous.
Why Memphis might do it:
Heisley is notoriously cash conscious and this gives him a big infusion of cash this year and savings the next 2 years. Rudy Gay is a cornerstone for them but Travis ain’t bad and Sergio allows them to pull the trigger on a Conley deal if they want. Jaric and Buckner are 2 of the least used players on their roster but both top 5 in salary.
Why Portland might do it:
There’s a lot to be said for exchanging 2 bench players for an 8-10 year starter. Rudy Gay does a little bit of everything and a lot of things I think we need like defensive quickness, above average rebounding for position, good passer, can create for himself and others, not bad from 3 (career) and tons of upside in an already accomplished player. The things he got knocked for in his draft lead me to believe he would be a good fit for us; he defers too much and he’s good at a lot of things but not great at any one thing exception athleticism.
I know KP may not be on speaking terms with Wallace but it wouldn’t be the first time Memphis moved talent to save a few bucks and we’ve got unique bargaining chips.
"I'm a buffet of goodness."
a year ago
it would have been ridiculous to suggest this. Gay was the guy they were going to build their entire team around, and he’s young and cheap.
Now, it seems at least as likely that they are going to center their team around Mayo. Do they fit well together as a nucleus for the future (I honestly don’t know – I’m asking). If not, or if you don’t think you can pay them both in a few years, it’s not nearly as outrageous to suggest a Rudy Gay trade – and his production is down this year from last.
Still, I think it’s unlikely, because he’s still cheap for two more years (though this offseason he is eligible for an extension, so….). Also, I think it would take more than Sergio and TO.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Do you think
the crappy contracts of Jaric & Buckner for this year plus 2 more each (according to Hoopshype) with the 3 mil and picks (forgot to mention them) would get it done? I’m wishing hard here but I’d be good with giving up a first and a second rounder to sweeten the pot further.
That’s a savings of $6mil the second year Jaric/Buckner versus Sergio/Travis and they’ve got the option to not resign Sergio/Travis for the 3rd year when Jaric/Buckner are @ $11.9mil if they’re really cheap.
"I'm a buffet of goodness."
The final two years of Buckner's contract are only partially guaranteed
If the waive him before the next season starts, he will only get about $1 million for each year. They (or any team he is traded to) will do that, so his contract is not that bad.
Besides, I don’t think Gay is the right player for our starting lineup and long-term plans and I doubt Memphis wants to part with him for weaker players.
What about the Spanish disconnection?
Does anyone have concerns that if the Blazers trade Sergio that the Armada will then sink into depression/oblivion? I know that some peeps want to trade Sergio, but doesn’t that affect another player, which could then disrupt the entire second unit?
I like where we are today, everyone on this team has good and bad days, people overlook the “3” when they have a bad outing..but then when others have bad days..it is trade them for a loaf of bread..or conversely…when someone has a breakout game..it is get rid of the other guy..he is not useful anymore.
Intensity on the defensive end seems to inspire ALL players on this team. This team plays incredibly better when focused on defense…new players don’t necessarily make you better on defense…but the mindset, focus, energy. drive, passion and commitment is the best start. I would show the Boston game over and over again!!! THIS is how we play…OUR identity..Own it…and BE it!
Go Blazers!
I do worry about Rudy & Brandon
both losing their best friends. The only thing I hope for is that they’re both mature enough to realize it’s a business and if it makes the team better…
"I'm a buffet of goodness."
man, I"m so tired of this argument
come on, these are grown men playing a sport where job (team) shuffling is the norm, not the exception.
When your buddy at work goes and changes jobs, do you sit home and cry about it?
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Rudy would be fine
Sergio got cut from the Olympic team and he didn’t revolt. Brandon would be fine without Travis as well, but I’m lees inclined to trade Travis because it would be difficult to get a player who brings what good Trav does in trade (at this point, he is what he is, which is fine by me, but you probably won’t get a starter for him so why disrupt the chemistry), while a team (the Knicks for example) would be more likely to overpay for Sergio, imo, based on the idea he would fit better in their system
Jerryd Bayless = Marlo Stanfield
- Early stage Marlo at this point, but Bayless is the emotionless killer new to the game. He will take over, and there will be casualties – it’s just a matter of time.
I love my team
(Blake) Sergio Bayless
Roy Rudy (bayless)
(Webster) Batuum, (Rudy/Roy/Outlaw)
Aldridge Outlaw Frye Diagu Slavlic (Zilla)
Oden Prizbilla (big folk)
RLEC
Wow, that’s a great team we’ve got there. Young as all get out and continuously forming up as a TEAM. I think we need only to get some muscle and maybe a forth point for RLEC, Frye and Diagu and Randolph. Or maybe trade Blake for a point man who compliments Roy until Bayless is ready.
I am a fan of the skills and the potential of the others and don’t want to trade them this year during the season. So my opinion is STAY MOSTLY PAT.
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