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Around SBN: Knicks Beat Lakers With Familiar Strategy

Seeking clarification of the "letting the ball roll on the floor" rule

This season I've noticed more than ever the practice of letting the ball roll on the floor before picking it up in order to advance the ball without the clock starting. I'm not sure how this got started, but I think LeBron popularized it (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Star-divide

This practice annoys the crap out of me because I'm under the impression that the time the ball spends rolling on the floor is supposed to be part of the 5-second count. I have taken to actually counting during these plays, and about half the time the ball rolls for more than 5 seconds, but there's no call. There's NEVER a call. One of the worst offenders when it comes to this, incidentally, is the PTB's very own Steve Blake.

So, what's the rule on this? Is it considered part of the 5-second inbound rule, or not? And why don't teams try to sneak a defender in there to disrupt the ball roll? Along with flopping, I'd like to see the NBA sort this out when the rules committee next meets.

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The 5 second rule...

That’s a good question. Is it 5 seconds to get the ball in possession, or just 5 seconds to get it inbounded?

I am all for this practice of not touching the ball when time is precious. But our own Steve Blake does it in excess, I think. And the way he does it (or maybe it’s how the inbounder puts the ball in play) looks awkward, whereas other guys will be walking face forward up the court with the ball right in front of them.

Meh, I guess.

Give the man his "M"!!!

by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Feb 13, 2009 12:45 PM PST reply actions  

Its not part of the 5 second count

I’ve always wondered why teams don’t just have someone get up there and make the PG pick up the ball.

Doesn’t really bother me though.

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Feb 13, 2009 12:45 PM PST reply actions  

the only reason it bothers me is because of the sense that a rule is being ignored

If it’s not part of the 5 second count, then I guess I’m OK with it (though I still don’t understand why the defense doesn’t go after the ball).

by Badalona Baddie on Feb 13, 2009 12:50 PM PST up reply actions  

the only time it bothers me

is when Blake does it when we’re winning. Why not run as much time as possible off the clock. I’m pretty sure the only reason he does this is so the offense can get set without using too much shot clock. Hopefully as the team gets more aware offensively and knows the sets front and back, this practice won’t be so prevalent, especially when we’re already ahead.

by DrivetheLane on Feb 13, 2009 2:00 PM PST up reply actions  

It doesn't matter re ahead or behind

since you can still run as much clock as you need to. I think Blake does it because of the pace of play. Our team gets up and down slowly and he is merely postponing the start of the 24 second clock.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

by 92wastheyear on Feb 13, 2009 3:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Exactly

It’s to have more time on our shotclock when we start the play. If he wanted he could pick it up and dribble off seconds to try to run out the clock, but the less time you have the less opportunity you have to keep looking for a better shot.

When the blazers become a good defensive team (and with a few years of the cake baking I think they will be a very good defensive team), I’d love to see the blazers press the guard. It would be a great role for bayless if he can learn to do it without getting called for a foul. If we have solid defense around the hoop, making the other team waste an extra 4-6 seconds of shotclock before they can start a play will be a serious advantage to our team.

by lurtsman on Feb 13, 2009 8:54 PM PST up reply actions  

imo just starting the clock when the ref signals/blows a whistle

would solve a heck of a lot of timekeeper problems.

Ref hands the ball to inbounder, ref signals, ref blows whistle, time starts, off we go.

Besides it’s silly to have the nine guys running around going full tilt and one guy lollygagging around with the ball in the backcourt and say that the game isn’t in progress.

Blazer Fan

by leeroyjenkins on Feb 13, 2009 12:47 PM PST reply actions  

but then we wouldn't

have B. Roys buzzer beater to win. There would be almost no last second shots. You couldn’t call a timeout if your teammates are being guarded and retain the time on the clock. When would the clock start on a free throw?

Its not part of the 5 second count, the ball is technically still out of bounds (it hasn’t been in-bounded yet).

From the back of Travis Outlaw's Franz card: Travis leads the team in monstrous thunder dunks, wins awards for post game interviews, and often gets extra points for degree of difficulty.

by TheOdenator on Feb 13, 2009 12:52 PM PST up reply actions  

oh sorry i misunderstood your question, I was thinking you meant back court pressure

Yea, huh. The rule is that you have 5 seconds to pass the ball from the out of bounds position.

From the back of Travis Outlaw's Franz card: Travis leads the team in monstrous thunder dunks, wins awards for post game interviews, and often gets extra points for degree of difficulty.

by TheOdenator on Feb 13, 2009 12:54 PM PST up reply actions  

By the way speaking of inbounding how funny was Rudy's sequence in the 4th?

When GS inbounded way in the backcourt and Rudy was doing some sort of chicken dance with the ballhandler all the way upcourt that resulted in him getting two quick fouls in about 10 seconds. The second of which gave GS free throws.

I thought Nate was going to punch him.

Maybe its already been talked about to death but I didn’t see where.

Blazer Fan

by leeroyjenkins on Feb 13, 2009 12:52 PM PST reply actions  

It absolutely is part of the 5 second inbounds rule. Same with the 8 second rule and passing the ball past half-court. But there are a lot of rules that get ignored in the NBA.

by Brandon684 on Feb 13, 2009 1:01 PM PST reply actions  

like stated above....

it is most certainly not a part of the 5 second in bound rule. That ends when the player passing it in no longer has possession.
I do however wonder about the 8 second back court rule in this instance. I think the eight second count doesn’t start until the shot clock starts.

Change We Believe In

by KPin2008 on Feb 13, 2009 1:16 PM PST up reply actions  

correct

if you have the ball in the frontcourt by the time the shot clock hits 16 (shot clock starts the same time the game clock does— when the ball is touched) then there is no violation.

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Feb 13, 2009 1:23 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

+1

because I wouldn’t have had the patience to type it out

by lurtsman on Feb 13, 2009 8:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I can admit when I'm wrong...

From Wikipedia (they site NFHS Rule 9 Section 2 Article 4)
Five-second throw-in violation

A five-second throw-in violation occurs if, during a throw-in, the ball is not released (passed) by the player inbounding the ball before five seconds have elapsed since the inbounding player was handed the ball.1 The game/shot clock(s) will not start until the ball is legally touched inbounds.

by Brandon684 on Feb 13, 2009 1:32 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

i wish recs carried over on to your sn.

because you deserve one for owning up. (Ceremonial +1)

From the back of Travis Outlaw's Franz card: Travis leads the team in monstrous thunder dunks, wins awards for post game interviews, and often gets extra points for degree of difficulty.

by TheOdenator on Feb 13, 2009 2:03 PM PST up reply actions  

It used to count towards five seconds in high school

I know, because I got called for it once. But that was back in the 70s….

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Feb 13, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Chris Paul also does it all the time

Another “new” rule I hate is that you can inbound the ball into the backcourt (your own half) now in the final minutes of the game without a backcourt violation. This way you can literally run away from guys trying to foul you to win the game. I’ve seen all kinds of teams do it, from Phoenix to Boston. One can make an argument that fouling to stop the clock is stupid, but running away like you are playing catch is worse to me.

The cake is a lie. Trade the cake!

by Norsktroll on Feb 13, 2009 3:19 PM PST reply actions  

as long as i have been playing basketball

you have been able to do that.

From the back of Travis Outlaw's Franz card: Travis leads the team in monstrous thunder dunks, wins awards for post game interviews, and often gets extra points for degree of difficulty.

by TheOdenator on Feb 13, 2009 3:38 PM PST up reply actions  

No.

This was a change that was implemented about 3 years ago when they instituted the new rules limiting the number of timeouts in the fourth quarter. The rules were changed to reduce the number of full timeouts taken at the end of games, by reducing full timeouts given to teams by one in each quarter, and making the rule where one full timeout is converted to a 20 if the team has more than 2 timeouts remaining in the last 2 minutes.

The tradeoff for the reduction in timeouts was allowing teams to advance the ball on 20 second timeouts, and allowing them to inbound into the backcourt after doing so.

Write-in Rudy for All-Star 2009!

by Majikj0n on Feb 13, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I thought it was just the advancing of the ball

so three years ago in the NBA you couldn’t throw the ball into the back court to inbound the ball?

From the back of Travis Outlaw's Franz card: Travis leads the team in monstrous thunder dunks, wins awards for post game interviews, and often gets extra points for degree of difficulty.

by TheOdenator on Feb 13, 2009 4:01 PM PST up reply actions  

clarify my question:

so three years ago in the NBA you couldn’t throw the ball into the back court to inbound the ball from the front court?

From the back of Travis Outlaw's Franz card: Travis leads the team in monstrous thunder dunks, wins awards for post game interviews, and often gets extra points for degree of difficulty.

by TheOdenator on Feb 13, 2009 4:07 PM PST up reply actions  

huh yea I guess so via nba.com

After a change of possession in the last two minutes of regulation or any overtime period, the offensive team can call a regular or 20-second timeout and advance the ball to midcourt. The team has the option of inbounding the ball in the frontcourt or backcourt. If it passes into the backcourt, the 10-second rule applies.
Previously teams could advance the ball only by calling a regular timeout and had to inbound the ball into the frontcourt.

From the back of Travis Outlaw's Franz card: Travis leads the team in monstrous thunder dunks, wins awards for post game interviews, and often gets extra points for degree of difficulty.

by TheOdenator on Feb 13, 2009 4:11 PM PST up reply actions  

changed in 2001

From the back of Travis Outlaw's Franz card: Travis leads the team in monstrous thunder dunks, wins awards for post game interviews, and often gets extra points for degree of difficulty.

by TheOdenator on Feb 13, 2009 4:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Has it really been that long?

Wow. Seemed more recent to me. How the time flies! ;-)

Write-in Rudy for All-Star 2009!

by Majikj0n on Feb 13, 2009 4:19 PM PST up reply actions  

I think that this became more popular

once players starting watching those old NBA Superstar videos where they play highlights while some cheesy 80s music plays in the background. Magic did the same thing in one of those videos and hit a buzzer beating 3.

by tingeyga on Feb 13, 2009 3:23 PM PST reply actions  

Here's why "letting the ball roll on the floor" is smart.

1. Get into the offense with more time left on the shot clock (as others mentioned);
2. Makes it easier to avoid the new eight second rule for getting the ball out of the backcourt;
3. If a defender comes running up in an effort to force the point guard to pick up the dribble, the point guard could blow by the defender much more easily and create a five on four or a mismatch at the offensive end of the floor;
4. (most important) Bored fans waiting for the player to pick up the dribble —> increased beer sales :)

Point guards have done this from time to time for decades, but it was the eight second rule that made it more popular.

MLB2PDX!!! (someday...)

by The Cactus Leaguer on Feb 13, 2009 4:12 PM PST reply actions  

Also..

less clock bleed means more possessions (those which we, by default, control), which isn’t without advantage on a slow-paced team like ours.

"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan

by 12sharks on Feb 13, 2009 5:33 PM PST up reply actions  

thank you

i totally hate this too! I get the pros but there have been a couple times when blake almost lost the ball out of bounds because he was doing this in the middle of a game. In my opinion you should only do this in the 4th quarter. Look 8 seconds is plenty of time to get it across court so who really cares(the only person this seems like to short is blake because he moves at permanent slug pace). Its just annoying

"Howard, he know me" Rudy

by phillyduck23 on Feb 13, 2009 5:01 PM PST reply actions  

What keeps the inbounder

from just setting the ball down on the court? Or gently dropping it from 1". Both teams could go out for a beer, come back and resume the game.

What rule prevents this?

by Engineering Problem on Feb 13, 2009 8:41 PM PST reply actions  

Logic prevents that – while you could, how could it possibly be to your advantage?

"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan

by 12sharks on Feb 14, 2009 12:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, you could mess with the opponents' mind

and perhaps get two quick points while they think the ball is maybe dead. Or something. Point is, do the rules cover this at all?

by Engineering Problem on Feb 14, 2009 6:07 PM PST up reply actions  

I don’t think there’s a rule against punching yourself or playing with your eyes closed, either.

Read: they only make rules for things that would actually happen.

"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan

by 12sharks on Feb 14, 2009 6:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Curiosity: in FIBA when you touch the ball the game clock start running but the posesion clock doesn´t start until you touch the ball with your hand.

The first time I heard about it was because of a play made by Rubio in the final game of the U16 championships (Aug 2006). The final game went into two overtimes, and Rubio finished with 51 points, 24 rebounds, 12 assists, and 7 steals. With 28 seconds left in the first overtime, Rubio was told in the timeout to hold for the final shot (tied game at that moment). As the ball was inbounded, there was no pressure coming from the Russian team, and Rubio let the ball bounce off his chest and onto the ground. The shot-clock didn’t start because no possession was established, and Rubio picked up the ball with 24 seconds left. His coach had not informed Rubio of the rule; it was the imagination of a 16 year old that led to such a veteran play. He even had to remind the rule to the refs while he was playing that ball, after he looked at the clock and watched that they were missing it. Link

Sergio + Rudy = 16
Sergio + Bayless = 16
Batum 8+8=16

by amlmart1 on Feb 14, 2009 7:45 AM PST reply actions  

Archaic Rules

There are a couple of archaic rules the NBA should get rid of because the 24 second rule makes it unnecessary. The over and back rule and the 8 second rule serve no purpose whatsoever. Why have them when there is a 24 second clock?

I could see the purpose of these rules with no shot clock but not with a 24 second clock.

by Balian on Feb 14, 2009 9:28 AM PST reply actions  

Off-topic

The one I don’t like is the dribble behind the back, where the guy has to look to find the ball, this is a carry almost every time and it’s never called.
I don’t remember the game (it wasn’t the Blazers) the guy (NBA) gets the defensive rebound at the free throw line, takes two dribbles and dunks it at the other end of the court – he could have been called for traveling twice on the same play. No call was made. Throwing the ball out in front of you so that you have to catch up to it should be an automatic call.

GO
THE TEACHER ......come into my classroom "THE PAINT" for some tutelage.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The rancor reflected in that remark I won't dignify with comment. But I'll address your general attitude of hopeless negativism." – Everett "O Brother, where art Thou?"

by Blazer1342 on Feb 15, 2009 12:14 AM PST reply actions  

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