does nobody else see that Bayless is the only PG that fits this team?
by skott75 on Dec 8, 2009 2:41 AM PST
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PrintThe Only reason Miller doesn't start is That Roy likes the ball in his hands. The only reason blake plays is because Roy likes him to be his outlet for three's. Bayless can shoot three's( well as good as Blake has this year),drive and push the ball up the court, bring energy that this team seems to be missing and, Oh yeah, he can also stay in front of his man. Any other PG on the roster who offers these skills? Yeah he needs to learn, but not how to distribute. Roy, Rudy, and Miller can take care of that, He needs to learn how to stay under control and pick his spots. It is hilarious to me that the two things this team needs most( defense on quick guards and scoring) are possessed in a player that spends most of his time on the bench grinding his teeth. If there is one positive that can come out of all these injuries, it has to be giving time to a kid that could be our solution to the PG problem. Look at all the other teams with dominant 2 guards. They don't need a prototypical PG cause they are play makers themselves. They need some one who can handle the ball and take some of the scoring load. Derek fisher, Moe Williams, Mario Chalmers, Arron Brooks, Tony Parker, Mike Bibbie, The list goes on. There are only a few pass first, offense running PG's. The rest are scoring guards who aren't quite two's. All I know is that if we lose Bayless before he ever gets a serious run, its going to be a huge mistake for this franchise. Not because he may pan out for another team, but because we never gave him a chance to succeed here.
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Jerryds defense has been a joke
his 3ball hopefully will come around, but its too early to say that he can shoot the 3. He’s a one trick poney and its a damn good trick right now. I like B Rex, but I’m not close to annointing him as the PGOTF
Cloudy is Sergio. Makes other people look good, can’t score himself. -Cablinasian
Greg Postertag is probably wielding a jack hammer of a Wenis - AK1984
Really?
That’s not what I’m seeing. To me it looks like Bayless has been the only guard who’s consistently staying in front of his man. I don’t think his defense has been bad at all, better than Blake, maybe about even with Andre overall. I’m not seeing him blow a lot of assignments or anything. Actually, that’s not true, twice I’ve seen him lose his man which led to an open jump shot.
Still, overall I’d say Bayless is already our best man to man defender on the perimeter.
by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 8, 2009 4:32 AM PST up reply actions
Jerryd Bayless' poor defensive +/- stats and high rate of fouling show he's been brutal this season.
As of 12/5/2009, here are two telling +/- stats from http://www.82games.com/0910/09POR3.HTM#onoff.
Net Points Allowed Per 100 Possessions: +5.6
Net eFG% Allowed Per 100 Possessions: +7.7%
As of today, here are other stats from http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/2010.html.
Steal%: 0.7% (Worst For A Guard On The Team)
Defensive Rating: 109 (Worst On The Team)
Finally, Bayless has what for a perimeter player is an astronomical high foul rate of 9.2 per 48 minutes: http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Fouls.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=OVERALL&position=5&splitType=9&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&sortOrder=3&splitDD=All
Dear Paul Allen:
Fire Nate McMillan & hire Jeff Van Gundy.
Sincerely,
AK1984
For the most part I ignore defensive stats.
It takes eyeballs.
Half his minutes are in garbage time. I would be more interested in how he plays when he get’s 20+ minutes. He’s fouling a lot because he’s not in the flow of the game. That rate is bound to go down the more minutes he gets.
by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 8, 2009 5:48 AM PST up reply actions
It looked to me
like Bayless got burned just about as frequently as Blake against NY. But he is the best we have at fighting through picks, and he usually does better at staying in front of his man.
His fouls come because he’s coming in as an assassin to mix things up, be really aggressive, and make things happen. They don’t bother me at all. Sure, there’s the occasional dumb/unnecessary one, but he’ll learn on those. Some of the fouling is just garbage time stuff.
And defensive +/-? Some of that is coming simply because of garbage time. Put Juwan at center and defensive stats are going to be poor.
The biggest thing for me is that Bayless makes things happen when he’s on the court, and we need that right now. Like that steal and fastbreak that narrowed the gap. Neither Blake nor Miller would have made that steal, and neither would have converted it at the other end. That’s the kind of plays you have to have, especially when you are down big in the fourth.
#52
"Some of the fouling is just garbage time stuff."
I’ve seen Jerryd Bayless pick up a couple quick fouls early when subbing for Brandon Roy in the middle of the first half on a few occasions, so he’s hacktastic no matter the situation. The matter of fact is that Bayless’ overaggressive man-to-man perimeter defense hasn’t yet been toned down, which is an ongoing issue that doesn’t look to have an end in sight.
Dear Paul Allen:
Fire Nate McMillan & hire Jeff Van Gundy.
Sincerely,
AK1984
If you give him minutes, he will figure it out...
Has Jerryd ever fouled out of an NBA basketball game? Has he ever had 4 or 5 fouls in a game?
His high foul rate is a product of frustration. He sits the bench watching inferior players get minutes in front of him. He is looking to decapitate someone when he sees the court. He fouls at a disproportionate rate in limited minutes.
With consistent minutes, Jerryd would learn not to foul.
Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.
"Hacktastic"?
Many of his fouls seem to be ticky-tack perimeter fouls. Much like Greg, he’s got the tools to be a good defender (quickness, athelticism, desire), he just needs to learn how to do so in game situations. He also needs time to earn some respect from the refs. Hard to do those things while riding the pine. Drop Blake or Miller. I don’t care which. Neither one of those guys will be the starting guard on a championship team. Give the kid some run.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
That's ridiculous.
Hinrich is one of the most foul prone guards in the league. Bayless will be fine.
by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 8, 2009 9:46 AM PST up reply actions
Dear AK
Please read the first word you quoted in your subject line. It starts with an “S” and ends with “-ome”.
The fact that you can cite instances of quick fouls that weren’t in garbage time in no way invalidates the fact that I said “some” of them were.
And that should temper reliance on fouls per 48.
Now, we can agree on this:
Bayless’ overaggressive man-to-man perimeter defense hasn’t yet been toned down, which is an ongoing issue
But it is ludicrous to think that a reasonably intelligent player isn’t going to learn to improve that if he gets playing time. Everyone does. Every single player that gets significant PT because of offensive or rebounding skills learns to improve their fouling.
#52
defense, yes, but don't forget the full compliment
of skills required to be a point guard……if you bring the rest in, you have to surmise that Miller is the most complete ….(For now) ….
the obstacle, I see for Bayless, would be his leadership skills and the ability to organize things out on the floor…he is a “freelance” style player who does make things happen with energy and drive…….Can he develop leadership skills with playing time? (maybe)…but this guy’s most effective game is free- flowing aggression and not so much of a controlled environment that Nate would expect…..
what does this team need ? (will be the question to answer….the team is in obvious limbo, right now, and may be forced to go back 2 years ago and continue to play Roy-LMA ball with a lot of outside shooting…a style that may get them to the playoffs only…..
So they if they feel a need to change their style and move on, it could mean an opportunity for Bayless to figure out where, or if, he fits in
my personal opinion of him…a potentially great player, but i just don’t think he will become a better than average point guard….too many natural skills for this position are missing (he also is not a very good passer)…
it can be said that point guard is the most important position on the floor…..A floor general and extension of the coach…Does Bayless fit this ? My opinion says, no he’s not……Although I love the guy…If nothing else, he’s a “refreshing” player who helps open up a somewhat stagnant/predictable offense
There are different types of PGs
Bayless is unlikely to ever be a “pure” PG. He’ll always be a scoring PG, like Tony Parker.
Since Brandon has the ball in his hands a lot, that’s not a bad thing to have. Bayless is a guy you can’t leave open to double on Roy.
Our offense is not built around a PG penetrating and kicking to the open man. It isn’t built around a PG making great passes. In our offense, the PG brings the ball up court, makes safe passes, knows the spot he is supposed to be, and punishes you if you leave him wide open.
Blake punishes teams by knocking down an open 3 (at least, when he’s playing well). Bayless can punish teams by hitting the jumper or taking it to the hoop.
I think he’s a good fit, as far as style. He needs to 1) improve his jump shot 2) cut down on his fouls and 3) improve his awareness of team defense. That’s it, really. I’m not saying there aren’t other areas he could and should improve, but if he can improve those areas, he’ll be a better PG for this team than Steve Blake.
#52
Yes, I have noticed our offensive
attack, but so does everyone else in the NBA……….this may be the whole argument against a point guard, guiding our team, and why it hasn’t worked out too well…..
Our offense can be very easy to defend, unless players are hitting the outside shots ( A perimeter offense with good shooters can be tough to defend, for sure) But…..you live and die by them……no transition offense and predictable set plays .. this lack of flexibility fails to keep defense’s honest…..
we allow them to set up because we rarely push the ball, even if we get a turnover……… So…they are ready and know exactly whats coming……
A good penetrating point guard, who can pass and shoot, changes all that, in a hurry…..this, along with a good transition offense(passing instead of dribbling), is a must to help keep the defense on their heels…
Tony Parker does all that, including shooting…he is also lightning quick and when he passes, he gets it to someone that’s in good position to score…….
So the mold of a point guard is cast a little different, depending on the player, but essentially they all have the same job…
I guess what I’m saying is; We either change direction, find a true point guard and get it done, or we stick with what we have and assume it will be good enough……This has been getting kicked around every since we have become competitive….so it’s hard to move away or adjust your game, when you have had some success…
the easy observation is, that we have the players we have, and we have to have something that fits them….
Although Miller was the third or fourth choice, he was acquired to fill in a spot that management felt could be a weak spot….or at least they felt they needed to get the ball inside and use their big men more on offense….My guess is; signing Miller, was not a vote of confidence for Bayless at point…..But, I still like the guy and he deserves some minutes, even if he doesn’t prove to be the guy of the future…….
I differ on the Miller signing
I saw it as a vote of confidence in Bayless, that they still think he’s the answer for the future. Otherwise, they would have tried to use the cap space to help them trade for a younger PG, or by signing Felton.
As far as our offense, you don’t have to have a penetrate and dish PG. That’s just one way to accomplish the task. Another is to institute a quick passing attack with lots of motion. Another is to teach Brandon to actually run the pick and roll and read the options the defense is giving him, and respond appropriately, instead of just letting the pick defender double team him and dribbling the threat away.
#52
Yes it's too bad
about all the injuries, because they would have had an opportunity to develop some options this year…
our offense is Ok, but I don’t agree about the point guard….I believe it is the missing ingredient , and the only reason we don’t use this style more is because we fit to our players style and gear to their strengths…. but you simply have to have more options in your system..
good teams have and will expose the flaws (in our system) and will use that to beat us….so a more flexible system is in order…..
Roy is Roy…he lacks quickness and so loses that advantage….not that he doesn’t make up for some of that with his other “heady” and physical skills….
Give me athletic quickness at the 1 and 3 and watch surprising things develop…..And one would have to assume that the future point guard for this team (if any) is still not settled…..IMO
Don't misunderstand
I think a more flexible system would be far better, too. I don’t like Nate’s offensive system at all, I think it is effective only because it relies solely on Brandon’s skill and because up until this year, our perimeter shooting has been excellent. It doesn’t get easy shots, though.
All I’m saying is that there is more than one way to skin a cat, or run an offense. LA doesn’t rely on a penetrating point guard. Chicago’s MJ teams didn’t. Portland’s championship team didn’t, either. A penetrate/dish PG is a valuable weapon, but not the only way to run an offense.
One minor point — I’m not sure I would say Roy lacks quickness. He has a phenomenally quick first step, which allows him to get past his man almost at will.
#52
yes
the triangle offense is an an effective one….funny, that it is actually “old school”..( I used to play similar variations in high school[long time ago]),,,,,,,it fits well with players that can create, yet is exactly the opposite of player isolation (it’s set up to break down double teams and always keeps the passing lanes close between players)..it also involves all 5 players and therefore it keeps defenses honest …also very simple and flexible
the Championship team was truly one of a kind…the masters of the transition game…….a system that fit Walton’s specific skills; defense, rebounding, outlet passing, and overall fundamental knowledge of the game (thank you, John Wooden and Jack Ramsey)
I would have to say,though, that without Walton, it loses a lot….But not to forget , the speed and quickness of the 1,2 and 3…… and also, smart coaching, by utilizing the skills of the players you have(something I think Nate falls short on)…and never losing sight of the basic fundamentals (defense included)
the game has changed some….. more athletic players, of course…. but most of all, using the 3 point shot in the offense and also having to defend it….it turned the game more “circus” like and made it more exciting for the fans….
Ramsey was an opponent( he thought you should have to earn the best possible shot on the floor and never wanted to" reward" players for shooting a lower % shot)
back to the triangle offense….it could work for Portland, ……however, Nate was hired at a time when the franchise was essentially starting over. He was probably the best coach that was available at the time…Given the young players and his teaching ability, he looked to be a good fit…..I’m not sure about that fit, as this team matures and gets to the next levels…He simply lacks flexibility and has trouble adjusting to new looks and players….
Opinions, second guessing…. it’s all part of the kingdom of the fan ….Ive long since traded to talking from walking (it’s so much easier and no accountability)
…don’t put the old sneakers on much anymore….
I don't play as much, either
Nice post.
I’m going to just say this. I think that Greg is a good enough passer out of the low post that we could use some of the same sets the Walton team used. Every player on that team was a shooter, and we’re loaded with shooters. And the 3 point threat would simply make it even more effective, in my opinion.
Thanks for the discussion.
#52
It looks no better or worse than that of all other guards on that team, which means bad to mediocre
At least he grabs rebounds above rim level. I would prefer Miller in for defense, but Bayless is next in line. Blake vs. Houston was a disaster on the last 3 possessions. The final shot by Brooks could have fallen just as easily as Roy’s last two could have rimmed out.
+/- on small samples is the refuge of simpletons and scoundrels
You know better than most AK. +/- is a notoriously fickle stat. There are simply too many independent variables that can lead to huge distortions. Particularly when you are talking about a bench player who is playing most of their minutes with other bench players. Most reputable stat guys are reluctant to use +/- for anything other than a full season or two.
by upper left corner on Dec 8, 2009 8:03 AM PST up reply actions
not a single coach on the Blazers' staff knows how to coach defense
so it’s not surprising that, while Jerryd brings intense D and shows effort at least TRYING, he’s still not stopped making the stupid fouls like hand checking. Imagine if somebody who knew a thing about Defense, or at least knew how to coach it properly, showed up in a nice suit for each and every Blazers practice. Not only would Bayless’ defense improve, but what could happen for guys like Rudy, Trout and Brandon as well?
Please pass this note along to Coach K of the Olympic squad.
I’m sure he will be forever in your debt regarding the incompetence of his Defensive Coordinator.
I know less than half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
by haildablazer on Dec 9, 2009 11:34 AM PST up reply actions
I feel like like Bayless has been getting a little overrated by fans lately.
I like his energy and spark, but I think his value isn’t quite as high as it might seem. First off, his defense isn’t that good yet. His aggression seems to be confused with great D, but it’s actually too aggressive and causes stupid fouls and dumb mistakes. Also, his numbers would not look as good if he didn’t usually get PT when the game is already over. His time has been mostly garbage time which inflates numbers a lot. I like him still, but he makes a lot of mistakes and doesn’t have decent court vision or seem like he’ll ever be a distributer. His value doesn’t seem to be too high around the league though so if he really wants to get traded, like is rumored, maybe he’ll make sure he gets better.
People like him
because our offense has been stagnant and his aggression is making things happen.
His decision making has been much better this year than last year, IMO. He’s made some nice passes to the open man, there’s been a few that have been really outstanding.
#52
He's not going to improve without game experience and at this point
what exactly do the Blazers have to lose by playing him? I’d even give him 5 to 8 of Roy’s minutes. It’s a lost season at this point, let’s save wear and tear on Roy, leave more in the tank for next year, and get JB some time. It’s good for the team even if all it does is increase his trade value.
the next Monta Ellis
Book it.
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -- Thomas Paine, US patriot & political philosopher (1737 - 1809)
I lean more toward Louis Williams.
Dear Paul Allen:
Fire Nate McMillan & hire Jeff Van Gundy.
Sincerely,
AK1984
That's definitely who he resembles.
Bayless would love to play on the warriors too. Guarantee he’d light us up on that team.
Not sure of the credibility...
Just read over on hoopsworld that Bayless asked to be traded over the weekend.
ROCKETS FAN
Can't really blame him.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
"I told Pau the Lakers never win here in Portland; I think it's great." -- Rudy Fernandez
This is recycled swill from Dwight Jaynes
Jaynes has had it in for Bayless from the start. He said Bayless would be on the next train out of town when the team signed Miller. I would take anything Jaynes writes on this subject with a huge grain of salt.
If I were KP, I would be soliciting offers for Blake, Trout, Rudy and Bayless. It makes sense to see what the market will bring. At the same time, I would be most reluctant to trade Bayless, because he is the guy who may develop into the answer to the team’s biggest long term roster hole.
by upper left corner on Dec 8, 2009 9:41 AM PST up reply actions
Just watching the NYN game again, this is what Bayless did in the 2nd quarter
drove the ball twords the hoop dished to LMA allyoop, 1 assist, , guarded his man no play, got the ball drove thro the key dish to a wide open Cunniham, 2 assists, his man scored on a extra long 3 pointer off a screen I mean a good 4 feet behind the arc. he drives to the hoop scores and is fouled 3points, defense his man is guarded misses rebound but intersepts pass comes down foot out of bounds, again his man does not score, he drive to the rim misses no foul is called lost ball, they bring in Miller and he is left in the corner
i agree
he shot 40% from 3s in college, and has the physical tools to be great defender.
while not ready yet, I dont want to have to wait to develop another point guard
bayless leaves over my dead body
Start Andre (in a 2 guard lineup)
"Good defense always beats bad offense."-Al Iannazzone, Yes Network
if you should strike Oden down he will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine
#52
I'm not a huge Bayless believer
but I don’t see the logic in benching him this season. Giving Miller or Blake PT over Bayless makes sense for this team if they are a part of a serious playoff run…. if we aren’t going for the WCF, then why not let him play? And more and more likely, a playoff run is seeming improbable.
Perhaps the best thing that could happen to Bayless would be for the team to tank and take us out of the playoff hunt. You’d have to see what he could do then.
Two points scored by GO’ = "thunderdunk"
Cosmic understatement
At a minimum, Bayless has been our most efficient scorer outside of Oden. Your comment seems to suggest that you think Bayless should get minutes only because it doesn’t matter that his PT will hurt the team. Stats suggest that Bayless is likely to help this team in the short run as well as potentially developing into a long range answer to our biggest roster hole.
by upper left corner on Dec 8, 2009 9:53 AM PST up reply actions
I don't know what the stats say - but I can say this
If I had to pick one guy to barrel the length of the court and charge at the basket with no regard for his personal safety, then I would choose Bayless (not a diss, he’s incredible at it). If I had to pick one guy to lead a fast break (big difference), or god forbid a pick and roll, Bayless wouldn’t exactly be my first pick.
I haven’t watched every game, but when I do watch, I often see him hurt the team with his PT. I do think Bayless should get minutes so he can develop, in addition to, like you say, because it doesn’t matter that any screwups won’t cost us a playoff run.
Two points scored by GO’ = "thunderdunk"
I'd rather have Bayless lead a fast break
than have Blake lead it.
#52
How can you disregard Bayless’ effort on D as “over aggressive”? A good part of D is very simply effort. While certain skills (foot work, understanding what fouls are called, how to read a player…) need to be developed, experience is a very good teacher. If a player doesn’t have the drive to stick on his man and work to make that players life difficult than he doesn’t have what it takes to be a defender. But if a player is clearly determined, athletic and quick than you mean to tell me he will go out there every night working his butt off to stay on his man and make life hard on them, that he wont get better, develop a deeper understanding and improve? Bayless has the physical skills, let him learn.
My sentiments pecisely
Beam me up, Scotty. The PGs on t his roster suck… except for Jerryd Bayless.
The dude can flat out get the ball in the net. Plus he is learning the PG position, developing better court vision.
Yes, the ol’ “court vizjh” thing. That is the facet of the game that young mister Bayless has yet to learn. But did anyone notice the ball handling and kick-outs that Jerryd accomplished in the last couple games. He’s got it goin’ on.
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -- Thomas Paine, US patriot & political philosopher (1737 - 1809)
Did Nate McMillan read this post?
Give opportunities to JB when your team is struggled. Don’t be stubborn. Took Bayless out and put Blake when JB was bringing your team back? None of us agreed with your stupid substitution!
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