Hollinger's (12/17) chat today..

by halo_on on Dec 17, 2009 12:37 PM PST Comment 53 comments

Love the subtle jab at Andre Miller in particular. Hollinger is great.

Eli (Bosh-Ton)

Hey John,

Any chance the Raps could trade Hedo at this point? Would anyone take him with that contract or am I dreaming that we could dump him for Ray Allen's expiring? I'm getting mighty sick of him smiling at all times while his team is getting pummelled, not to mention the fact that he shot warmups with the Magic in last nights pregame shootaround, the guys gotta go!!! Thanks.

John Hollinger (3:26 PM)

the only way you'll be able to trade him is if you want to get 30 cents on the dollar back ... either that or you're trading him for somebody else's disappointment. Speaking of which, here's one crazy thought I just had: Turkoglu for Andre Miller.

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This probably belongs in the Fan Shot section. Still getting used to the website.

"Sometimes that light at the end of the tunnel is a train."
-- Charles Barkley

by halo_on on Dec 17, 2009 1:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Welll

We know that K targeted Hedo as his #1 FA and offered him the 5/50 deal…and injuries have created an even greater need for a scoring 3-4 than there was this offseason

So, would Miller + Howard + capspace for Hedo match up?

Would KP be interested in acquiring a guy who stiffed him last July?

I’m thinking that’s a negatory…but you never know

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Dec 17, 2009 2:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

That deal doesn't match

but KP could deal Miller+Outlaw for Hedo+Pops Mensah-Bonsu, anytime after Jan 17th

http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5330140

(or…not)

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Dec 17, 2009 6:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You forgot to mention his not so subtle jab at Blake.

John – Did you realize based on PER, Portland was starting the worst starting PG (blake) and second worst starting SF, Webster (barely above the guy from Milwaukie, can’t spell). Does this make Portlands record more impressive?
John Hollinger
(4:00 PM)

I suppose. The Blazers can’t do much about Webster, but they have to play Miller and count on him getting in better shape and learning to coexist with Roy. It’s the only way out of this.

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 17, 2009 2:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

I can think of another way out of it

but I think Hollinger is right, and the other way out of it is still premature.

#52

by jscot on Dec 18, 2009 5:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The person who posted the question made a jab at Blake. Oddly enough his second response was yet another jab at Miller much more so than Blake. Hi Andre! Would you like to get in shape so we can get our money’s worth? Thanks man.

"Sometimes that light at the end of the tunnel is a train."
-- Charles Barkley

by halo_on on Dec 17, 2009 3:10 PM PST reply actions 1 recs

No.

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 17, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

He basically agreed with the person who said Blake was the worst starting PG in the NBA.

Also, Hollinger invented PER, so it’s not like he’s going to dispute his own metric.

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 17, 2009 3:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Also, Hollinger has long been an advocate of benching Blake.

“Brandon Roy loves playing with Blake and McMillan has given Roy a lot of rope, but they need to look really hard at this. Blake is a backup. Period. If Blazers are going anywhere this year, and I’m not necessarily sure they are, it will be with either Miller or Bayless running point”-Hollinger

People like Blake because he’s a white guy who was a part of our successful team last season. It’s nostalgia mixed with a healthy dose of racial bias.

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 17, 2009 3:33 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

Rec for truth.

"I don't always read blogs regarding the Trail Blazers
...but when I do... I read Blazers Edge."

- resurrect_ha28

by FiveOhThree-RipCity!! on Dec 17, 2009 4:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Stop calling Nate a racist.

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Dec 19, 2009 12:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Surely Blazer fans and Bedgers have "moved past" the race card?

At least, I hope so

But Portlanders generally like to be liked. Blake chose to return to PDX and settle down, and that counts for a lot around these parts. I’d put Joel in the same category, even though he returns home to Wisconsin during the offseason (family > humidity and mosqitos, I guess…) because Przy chose to stick with the Blazers when they were the dregs of the NBA and he had the opportunity to sign with the Spurs, etc

But we also liked Channing Frye because he loved Portland and wants to return here in the summer. So, skin color isn’t the main issue. It’s not easy to attract NBA FAs to choose the Pacific NW, so when we’ve got a few who genuinely like the area and want to stick around, it’s extra hard to push them away

That’s my “native Oregonian opinion” and I’m sticking to it

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Dec 17, 2009 4:45 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

It's ingrained in our brains.

There was a study that showed black refs award less fouls to black players, while white refs award less fouls to white players. It’s just human nature to root for people you can relate to, and there is a tendency to relate to people in your own cultural subgroup.

An academic study of NBA officiating found that white referees called fouls at a greater rate against black players than against white players. The study, conducted over a 13-season span through 2004, found that the racial makeup of a three-man officiating crew affected calls by up to 4½ percent. The study also found differences in everything from a decrease in scoring to a rise in turnovers depending on the officials’ race.-CBS

It’s certainly not the only motivator, but I do think it’s a strong variable in the equation and I think it goes all ways. My family in Mexico City is crazy about anyone who comes from Mexico. They probably think Eduardo Najera is the greatest player ever.

So yes, Steve Blake gets cut some slack because he’s white.

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 17, 2009 5:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Too much of a generalization

So yes, Steve Blake gets cut some slack because he’s white.

What you may be demonstrating is that there is some discrimination present in certain segments of the US population (something I think we could already have guessed). You have not demonstrated that there is a disproportional distribution of prejudice against blacks (in Portland or the NBA in general) that is not balanced out in a normal population distribution by a similar prejudice against skinny white guys (like Blake). The actual population of the number of black players in the NBA vs the actual population of the number of white white players in the NBA is the best data to look at. I do not think the percentages support your conclusion that:

….Steve Blake gets cut some slack because he’s white.

It may be accurate to say that this is true if we are talking about a small and shrinking segment of the population. But I also believe we could make an equal and opposite statement (he is discriminated against as a player because he is white) and be equally correct. The greater body of evidence says that the statement in question really does not carry a lot of weight or meaning from what I can tell.

#52

by KINGofMACct on Dec 17, 2009 6:41 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

Interesting interview tonight by Scott Lynn about his new book...same topic

http://www.1190kex.com/cc-common/podcast/single_podcast.html?podcast=sports.xml

Thornridge: The Perfect Season in Black and White

http://www.authorhouse.com/Bookstore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=67013

http://www.powells.com/biblio?show=Trade%20Paper:New:9781449040895:22.75

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Dec 17, 2009 7:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Eh, some good points.

The actual population of the number of black players in the NBA vs the actual population of the number of white white players in the NBA is the best data to look at.

Why in the world would that be the best data to look at? There are a billion variables there that all have to be taken into account. You would have to look at culture, disproportionate popularity of the sport based on race, physical factors based on race (height, muscle mass, etc), socioeconomic factors (basketball is a cheaper sport to play than hockey, tennis, golf, etc).

The fact that there are a greater number of black guys that play professional basketball means nothing. Black dudes are good at basketball. That has nothing to do with what I’m talking about.

I am talking about the fans, who are basing opinions based largely on ENTERTAINMENT factors. Rooting for people you can relate to plays a large part in that. I never said the owners had an outrageous bias towards players of their own race. They tend to base decisions on financial and competitive factors.

But I also believe we could make an equal and opposite statement (he is discriminated against as a player because he is white) and be equally correct.

I think that is absolutly correct. White players often get labeled as slow or unathletic simply because they are white. They also benefit from an automatic “hard worker”, “high BBIQ” label that get’s placed on them based on racial stereotypes.

we are talking about a small and shrinking segment of the population.

For sure. I don’t even really care if people do root for players based on race. There are all sorts of meaningless superficial attributes that influence who we like as a player. I enjoyed watching Jennings ten times more before he cut his hair. I think Ersan Ilyasova has a cool face.

People in Boston cheer like crazy for Brian Scalabrine even though he’s one of the worst players in the league. I’m pretty sure that has at least a little to do with how he looks.

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 17, 2009 7:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

you cant be serious about that

Hollinger is white you know..

Wouldn't mind if Bayless was starting. Or at least playing.

by collectiveshane on Dec 17, 2009 4:48 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs

And?

I never said everyone had a bias based on race. Hollinger is a numbers guy who is typically very logical and emotionless in his opinions.

He actually wrote a great article about how Nash probably didn’t deserve either of his MVP awards.

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 17, 2009 6:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Nate & Brandon have racial bias in favor of Blake?

I’m not buying it.

by DC Blazer on Dec 18, 2009 5:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh and...

Their bias would be the only one that matters. Any bias the fans may have (completely plausible, given the demographics of PDX) is irrelevant to the slack Blake gets cut that keeps him on the court.

by DC Blazer on Dec 18, 2009 5:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm talking about fans.

Not players, coaches, owners, etc.

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 18, 2009 6:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, come on, NVE

I guess I like Travis because he’s a white guy, too. Or Bayless, for that matter. Or Brandon, or Martell.

That’s totally unnecessary.

#52

by jscot on Dec 18, 2009 5:29 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs

It is what it is.

I’m not accusing anyone of being a racist. I don’t care that fans have superficial reasons for liking players.

Steve Nash wouldn’t be a two time MVP if he wasn’t a likable white guy. Fans in Boston wouldn’t cheer like crazy for Brian Scalabrine if he wasn’t white. There wouldn’t be a million “I love Rudy” shirts if it wasn’t for his appearance. I fully believe that if Brandon Roy was, lets say, Irish, he would be one of the most popular players in the NBA, by far. He would be getting twice as many all-star votes and people would probably, erroneously, compaire him to Larry Bird.

I don’t care. Honestly I don’t, but don’t patronize me. If professional referees, who’s job it is to officiate games without bias, can’t help but give slight preference to people in their own ethnic group, then I have a hard time believing the average fan is going to be able to get past it.

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 18, 2009 6:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I would disagree on several points ...

1. Steve Nash doesn’t strike me as terribly likable. Have you seen him on Ali G?
2. Rudy isn’t white, he’s Spanish. All kidding aside, there is no biological basis for the popular notion of “race”. See, for example this. But, of course, racism does exist, and perhaps we are not able to accurately gauge the extent to which our own actions and predilections reflect underlying racist tendencies absorbed from our cultural environment.
3. The job of professional referees is to ensure that some people in Las Vegas like the final score.

#52

by CatMan2 on Dec 18, 2009 9:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I see what you are saying.

Except, how would it benefit people in Las Vegas for refs to give preference to people of their own race?

I’m simply stating the obvious, which is we tend to favor people we can relate to. A guy with a mustache might be slightly more inclined to root for a player who also had a mustache. The same can be said about skin color.

Luke Ridnour did not get all-star votes based on merit, he got them based on something else. I don’t think it’s racism, more just about relating better to what we are familiar with.

I think Blake gets defended (Less now than in the past) because people like him. They like him for a bunch of reason, perhaps for some of the same reasons people like Ridnour.

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 18, 2009 9:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Ridnour got votes

because fans always vote for the players on their team.

Familiarity is a big part of this picture. The Chinese vote for T-Mac even when he hasn’t been playing. It’s not skin color, it is that he’s one of the few players with whom they are familiar.

#52

by jscot on Dec 18, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I think that was his first year on the team.

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 18, 2009 4:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't patronize you?

With all due respect, if anyone is being patronizing it is the person who is saying that people only like Blake because of his skin color.

People like Blake because he’s a white guy who was a part of our successful team last season. It’s nostalgia mixed with a healthy dose of racial bias.

Nate and Brandon like Steve. He isn’t in their ethnic group. Perhaps they see something in his game you don’t. Perhaps other people do, too. Perhaps they like his character. Perhaps they like the fact that he wanted to come to Portland, just like they liked Channing Frye. Perhaps they like the way he throws chairs.

Fans in Portland loved Channing, just like fans in Boston love Scalabrine.

Fans in Portland also love Jerryd. And Rudy. And Brandon. And Joel. And Travis. And LMA.

There are many complex factors going into why fans like players. I have a fondness for Blake because he reminds me of myself — limited athleticism, reasonable ball-handling, not worth a lot going to the hoop against bigger players, excellent deep shooter, not quick enough to be a great defender so had to maximize effort and be as smart as possible, always left it all out on the floor. That’s me (or what I was), and that’s Blake. So I’m somewhat biased towards him because of that. I liked Nate, too, for somewhat similar reasons.

Skin color? That is such an irrelevance to my fanhood. Love Jerryd’s game. Two of my all-time favorites were Unseld and Frazier. Loved Geoff Petrie and Maurice Lucas and Johnny Davis and Lloyd Neal and Bobby Gross and Jim Paxson and Terry Porter and Buck Williams.

Am I unique? I can’t believe that. Does skin color impact me at all? Perhaps, I suppose. But if it so, it is such a minor thing compared to style of play, effort, personality, character (insofar as it is known to the public), etc., that it is totally indiscernible. I’m sure if went through and listed all my favorite NBA players, there would be far more who were black than white, not even close.

#52

by jscot on Dec 18, 2009 1:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Again.

I never said people ONLY like Blake for his skin color.

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 18, 2009 4:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That is way off base

I don’t know anyone who likes Blake so to say some fans like him because he is white is racist. I think it’s the other way around, fans don’t like expect white NBA players to be any good, so they hate Blake.

I don’t know anyone that hate’s Blake because of his poor performance, it’s all based on race. – That sounds just as dumb as fans liking Blake for being white.

by tominhawaii on Dec 18, 2009 7:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for making that last part bold.

How do you explain Yi Jianlian getting a million all-star votes? Only Chinese people are susceptible to ethnic bias?

Luke Ridnour got more votes than Derrick Rose, Brandon Roy, or Joe Johnson last season. Why do you think that was?

Obviously some people have an extra soft spot for Blake, Joel, and Rudy because of the way they look. If the majority of Blazer fans were Indigenous Australians then I can guarantee you Patty Mills would be significantly more popular.

Clearly I don’t know what every specific person is thinking. I’m sure some (maybe most) people like Blake purely because he… um….~~hits~~ hit open three’s at a high percentage. I still think he got a small break last season because of his race, personality, etc. Factors that were superficial and had little to do with his actual production.

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 18, 2009 7:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I believe the situation is a bit more complicated.

Some Chinese people are racists, I suppose. Others, no doubt, show nationalist pride by supporting their fellow countrymen. Still others just like to root for somebody they’ve heard of and whose career they may have been following for some time. And finally, some of them who don’t know much about basketball may actually think Yi should be an all-star.

If you want to argue that racism is one explanatory factor of several, then I would agree.

Overall, I don’t feel that bringing racism into the discussion vis-a-vis Steve Blake is very useful.

#52

by CatMan2 on Dec 18, 2009 9:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Why is voting for someone based on their ethnic heritage "racist"?

Noun 1. racistracist – a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others

You root for who you like. It’s not necessarily based on who you think is superior, otherwise I would be rooting for Lebron James. Racism has nothing to do with it.

I am curious though. Why do you think Ridnour got so many votes last season? Does it seem a little bit disproportionate compared to his level of play? What do you think those people were basing their votes off of?

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 18, 2009 9:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think we're communicating very clearly.

And this is an important subject, so it’s important to be clear.

I listed several reasons why particular Chinese citizens might vote for Yi. There are doubtless many other reasons I did not list. Racism, however you define it, is certainly one reason. I do not want to debate the question you ask (‘Why is voting for someone based on their ethnic heritage “racist”?’). I have not said that it is, or that it is not. I have an opinion about it, but, again, I do not want to get into that.

I haven’t investigated the all-star voting results or voter demographics, so I don’t have an informed opinion on the matter.

Possibly you think I am claiming certain things that I do not mean to claim, and vice versa. Because of the button-pushing nature of these issues and the difficulty of expressing ourselves clearly without real, face-to-face feedback, and also because I’ve got a million other things to do today, I’m going to leave it at that.

#52

by CatMan2 on Dec 18, 2009 10:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Only 2 people in this world like Blake the player.

And Nate and Roy are both black so race has nothing to do with with it. Blake’s just smart enough to know he doesn’t have the talent to get big minutes so he put all his effort in getting close with the 2 people that matter the most.

by Coastie07 on Dec 19, 2009 1:37 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs

Ha ha. +1.

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Dec 19, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually, the +1 is for the first part.

I don’t think Blake is the political animal you make him, any more than any other player on the team brownoses the coach or hangs with the star to get PT. A little of that is human nature and Blake has sufficient confidence in his ability that he’s no worse about that than anyone else, in all likelihood.

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Dec 19, 2009 12:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I was only joking about that.

It’s just too hard to come up with a valid explanation for why Blake gets so many minutes. Blake seems like a good guy though. Just wish he’d be a good guy on our bench or someone else’s.

by Coastie07 on Dec 20, 2009 8:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Portland was once the Western hub of the KKK ...

by kickbrass on Dec 18, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The KKK had hubs?

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Dec 19, 2009 12:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

They did until Reaganomics

Then after deregulation, the KKK split off into other racist groups, and lost all their hubs.

by tominhawaii on Dec 20, 2009 4:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Andre will do just fine.

by Natsthecat on Dec 17, 2009 3:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Hedo does not seem to rate very high on the loyalty scale....

if I was his wife, I might be worried after all!

#52

by KINGofMACct on Dec 17, 2009 4:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Hedo

first off, he is sucking…do we want to be locked in for 4 more years? Secondly, he stiffed us. Do we welcome him back? To go back a few years— hell to the no.

Land Rondo.

"He needs to realize that he can't stop every shot, especially from a smaller and offensively potent player. Get your hands up, make him shoot it over you, but let him shoot every once in a while. They score a little but you stay in the game a lot. And when you stay in the game...smashy smashy!" Dave on Greg Oden

by loyal_blazer on Dec 17, 2009 5:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

So how do you like Portland now, Mrs. Tukoglu?

It might be worth the whole price of the contract, just to hear her response

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Dec 17, 2009 6:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I couldn't care less if he stiffed us

It’s the fact that he’s in a serious decline that makes me not want him

by nikolokolus on Dec 17, 2009 7:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know, I was thinking we should give Miller a CHANCE before we trade him away,

especially since Steve Blake stinks as a starting PG! Now if people were wanting to give Bayless a shot, I can sort of understand. But Steve Blake is NEVER going to be any better than he was last year, and more likely not even that good. Miller has been consistently better throughout his entire career than Blake was in his “career year.”

by goobie1 on Dec 17, 2009 11:13 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

if andre is traded

it’ll be to someone that needs a 1 and has a 4 to spare… to Orlando for Bass?

by blayzees on Dec 17, 2009 11:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

That's the trade I like. Not very likely, but it has a good inner logic.

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Dec 19, 2009 12:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I...love...Hedo Turkoglu.

If the Blazers win a championship in the next five years we will all look back at the day Hedo left us at the altar as the day that everything changed. He reeeeeaallly did us a favor.

THANK YOU HEDOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oden fan for life

by dario argento on Dec 18, 2009 12:08 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

he shot warmups with the opposing team?!

wth.

why isn’t that getting more pub? it’s quite significant.

by CleBlazer on Dec 18, 2009 12:08 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

I understand that many of the Blazers have prayed jointly with members of opposing teams.

How awkward must be the moment when Brandon, say, offers a pre-game prayer such as:

O Lord our Father, we young ballers, idols of our fans’ hearts, go forth to battle – be Thou near us! With us – in spirit – our fans also go forth from the sweet peace of their beloved HD TVs to smite the foe.

O Lord our God, help us to tear their wings to bloody shreds with our picks; help us to cover their smiling benches with the pale forms of their broken bigs; help us to drown the thunder of the cheering crowd with the shrieks of their injured, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble win-loss record with a hurricane of 3-pointers and unanswered points in the paint;

help us to wring the hearts of their hopeful fanbase with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out winless with their dwindling posses to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated franchise in casts and on crutches, sports of the searing flames of Internet bloggers and the icy critiques of television pundits, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it –

for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their record, protract their bitter season, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their injured feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts.

Amen.

Apologies to Mark Twain.

#52

by CatMan2 on Dec 18, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I was completely against signing Hedo from the start.

And I have been completely proven right. We were so lucky he picked Toronto. The worst part about him is that he just doesn’t care about winning. CTC, Collect The Check is what Turk is about. But if he cared more about winning and less about money, he wouldn’t have picked Toronto over us so I guess it all works out.

by Coastie07 on Dec 19, 2009 1:33 AM PST reply actions 0 recs