OT: Shame on you CiP 12-16 topic on 95.5
by truls on Dec 16, 2009 5:53 PM PST
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PrintHere I am a mere 5 days from discovering that a close friend of mine is missing on Mt. Hood. I'm at work trying to distract myself with some sports talk radio about my Blazer team, and coming back from some commercial on the BFT I hear a snippet about something with the words "Mt. Hood" thrown in there.
Naturally my interest is piqued even though I know at this point the most I can probably hope for is that the body of my friend and spiritual brother Anthony Vietti has been found and there can be at least some resolution to this nightmare. Instead of anything news-related I gather that there is some sort of discussion regarding the usage of perhaps making locater bracelet a requirement for mountain climbers. I continue to listen and am mortified to hear the impersonal venom being spewed from CiP's and several callers self-righteous mouths as they condemn one of the best people I've ever known as an "idiot", "tool" and several other implications that do not bear any repeating.
I know that Anthony was a very experienced and prepared climber who aspired to climbing "the big ones"; No I can't personally answer as to what reason they did not rent bracelets; I DO know that my friend was not a mentally handicapped person who "deserved to be institutionalized", nor was he some macho man who thought he was above everything. God knows I wish that they had rented bracelets as my world would not now be spinning nearly as much as it is.
Shame on CiP, Shame on the callers who just because they don't know the people make assumptions and don't care about their lives or the people they have affected, and shame on Gavin Dawson for calling in and bringing up grieving mothers and the in the same breath calling their children idiots!
I apologize a bit in advance, I know that perhaps this is not the best place for it, but I needed a public forum to wash out the sickly taste in my mouth.
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Sorry about your friend
You should write 95.5 and let them know how offensive you found the conversation. If no one tells them how will they know.
by The Arkitect on Dec 16, 2009 6:11 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
You should absolutely write 95.5 and tell them
I tend to enjoy CiP some. When I heard him say what he said about your friend, all I could think of is how hard he is trying to be like Jim Rome. He tries so hard that sometimes he ends up just looking classless. That was shameful.
He should apologize.
I'm going to come up with the best line here ever, something really clever.
by musicdaniel on Dec 17, 2009 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry for you and the family of your friend, I hope he is alive or at least gets found
Didn’t listen to CiP recently, but he should be very cautious after already getting almost fired this year for insensitive remarks. Apparently he is not.
Are such radio bracelets required equipment in Oregon for off-track routes? That would surprise me, I have never used them and am an avid mountaineer (in Europe, Africa and South America though). I do use equipment to get found under an avalanche that makes it possible to track you, but only in a short radius. And of course carry a cellphone which was not available back when I started.
Miller - Roy - Webster - Aldridge - Przybilla. Is that so hard?
by Norsktroll on Dec 16, 2009 6:14 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
The bracelets are not required
The search has been officially called off and is now a “recovery” operation whenever the weather gets better.
A few mountaineers did call in and voice their own reasons for not wearing bracelets and were quickly blackballed…I don’t mind a healthy debate over whether or not the bracelets should be required, but the timing and tone of the discussion made me want to puke.
I appreciate your sympathies, I have to believe I’ll see him again one day
Rooo-D!
I saw Chad in Portland on Talkin' Ball and he came across to me as someone who loves to heare the sound of his voice.
He also went on about how the Blazers should continue to start Steve Blake and not André Miller..this is after the loss in Milwaukee I believe…in a loud and bullying sort of way. Seemed like his “argument” was that if he said it loud enough and long enough..that should BE enough of an argument..period.
Anyway, seems like he may say things without thinking and I don’t like this.
Sorry to hear about your friend. I don’t listen to 95.5 when I hear his voice now…
by Natsthecat on Dec 17, 2009 10:04 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I was stormed off Hood three timesback in my climbing days.
Although it is a less technical climb than Jefferson or Washington, it is the only one of the big peaks in Oregon that I have not climbed.
If I were doing a winter climb, I wouldn’t even consider climbing without a beacon. Having said that, I know that Moutain Rescue has been against making beacons mandatory.
No matter how you feel about beacons, you should be able to be empathetic to those who have been struck by tragedy.
by upper left corner on Dec 17, 2009 10:16 AM PST up reply actions
Nope
They are “Highly advised” but not required.
Even the law the would have required them (which failed) was without teeth because they didn’t want to force people not to call for a rescue if they didn’t have one.
"Good evening Blazer fans, wherever you may be!"-Bill Schonely
Sorry to hear about your friend
I stopped listening to CiP midway through the first sentence I heard him speak.
"I been ridin' the midnight train, got ice water in my veins." -Bob Dylan
"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice
by koyote on Dec 16, 2009 6:23 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
My deepest sympathies go out to you
However I have no such feelings for your friend. I dont feel sorry for people that choose to drive 100 Mph and crash and I dont feel sorry for your friend. We are held responsible for our choices and your friend took unnecessary risks. In doing so he also risked the lives of rescuers. Again sorry for your loss.
Your response is callous and simplistic
This kind of sanctimonious, judgmental, Dr Laura-esque comment really rubs me the wrong way.
1) It is not at all certain that a beacon would have made any difference other than making the recovery of the bodies easier. If there was a fall or an avalanche. They likely would have died anyway.
2) While I agree that a beacon is advised, especially for winter climbing, that doesn’t mean that these were not skilled climbers who would have completed their climb safely 99 times out of 100. Bad things can happen to even the best climbers.
3) Failing to extend sympathy when someone has lost their life, even if they made choices that may have contributed to the eventual outcome, is remarkably callous. Should we all pay the ultimate price for every mistake we make? This kind of “blame the victim” mentality is reflective of a kind of conservative world view that is responsible for many of the problems in our country.
It would be fine to say that you think these climbers should have taken a beacon. To say that you have no sympathy because they didn’t is a reflection on your own humanity. A little human decency and compassion would be advised.
by upper left corner on Dec 17, 2009 10:30 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Failure to wear the locator beacons says a lot about someone.
Sure, someone may be able to get out of a situation 99% of the time. I can drive wrecklessly and not get in a car accident 99% of the time, that doesn’t mean I do. I, too, find it difficult to scrounge up sympathy for someone who knew the risks, refused to take every precaution possible to save a life (in this case the locator beacon), and proceeded with the risk taking.
And as a side note, saying “they likely would have died anyway” is just flat out ridiculous.
"Ain't nothin' in this world for free."
You can't possibly know why they weren't wearing a locator beacon
Yet you go ahead and speculate that is “says a lot about someone” who doesn’t. There are all kinds of reasons why they may not have had locator beacons. You have no idea “what it says” about them because you don’t know why the climbers didn’t have them. I literally never drive my car without using a seatbelt, but I wouldn’t pass judgement on someone who didn’t and subsequently was injured or perished in an accident.
And by the way, your comment is an amazingly cold-hearted and, dare I say, cruel thing say to someone is clearly hurting over the potential loss of a friend. While you may not feel sympathy for the person missing, I would think you’d at least feel sympathy for someone who has lost a person close to them.
by MDBlazerfan on Dec 17, 2009 11:38 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I never said they weren't wearing a locator beacon.
I said it says a lot about someone who doesn’t. He was speaking in general terms and that is how I replied.
"Ain't nothin' in this world for free."
anyway, what possible reason could there be for not having one?
One that carries ANY sort of weight? From the sounds of the caller last night, pride is the only argument that people who don’t wear them seem to have.
"Ain't nothin' in this world for free."
not very heavy at all
they are maybe a pound at the most, but I don’t know for sure b/c I never weighed one. They can be attached in a couple different ways, some use a belt, or bracelet, others are attached to your jacket from the manufacture.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
I agree
though it would probably not be best to take political potshots either. Most conservatives would probably have the same response to that post that you did.
I’ll add this to your comment. Every single person in this world takes actions that risk damaging themselves and others.
People smoke, they get drunk (until you’ve done it, you don’t know whether it is going to turn you violently aggressive), they exceed the speed limit, they borrow money they can’t be sure of repaying, they shoplift, they commit insurance and welfare benefit fraud, they cheat on their taxes, they drive while tired, they go on the Internet at work without permission, etc, etc.
If someone loses their job because they spent too much time on the Internet, and they lose their home as a result, it is self-inflicted, right? It is still a terrible price to pay to learn the lesson the hard way. There is no profit in bashing people. There can be great profit in saying, “I’m terribly sorry. Let’s start by learning the lessons we should learn from it, and then look at ways to go forward and put things back together.”
Of course, if someone has paid with their life (which we don’t even know in this case, as you mentioned), there is no “going forward” for that person, so it is only learning lessons which will help others. There is even less profit in bashing people, because they aren’t around to learn those lessons.
#52
Perhaps I should clarify my "pot shot."
Conservatives tend to have “individual responsibility” as a core value. I think it is a good value, up to a point. Obama has made a point of saying “turn off the TV, get off the couch, and do your homework.” I am totally down with that.
However, there are a certain group of folks who are very absolutist in their thinking and take this positive value to an extreme. If you are poor, it is your own fault. If you don’t have the money to afford an education, it is your own fault. If you don’t have health care, it is your problem. If the bank forecloses on your house, go live under a bridge. If you don’t take a beacon, don’t expect me to feel sorry for you when you die. I think the parallel I am drawing is a legitimate one.
I realize that there are many brands of conservatives, just as there are many brands of progressives/liberals (many of whom bug the heck out of me), so I probably should have qualified my statement. I was talking about a particular brand of conservative who sees compassion as weakness, and believes that government should do nothing to help people or even help give them the tools they need to be able to help themselves.
I knew many principled, thoughtful, and pragmatic conservatives during my decade and a half in the political arena. I might not have always agreed with their priorities, but they were decent, rationale people, trying to do what they believed in. My problem is with the rigid ideologues on both sides. Here in the US, the Republican party seems to have been almost completely overtaken by the ideologues.
by upper left corner on Dec 17, 2009 1:49 PM PST up reply actions
I've read some US conservatives, but not a lot
And again, we’re drifting OT, so if truls shoots me down, I’ll drop this discussion, too.
I was talking about a particular brand of conservative who sees compassion as weakness, and believes that government should do nothing to help people or even help give them the tools they need to be able to help themselves.
Aren’t you conflating two things here? There are those who philosophically believe it isn’t the role of government to do those things, but are still compassionate people who A) would totally reject the post to which you responded B) believe that people should be helped in need, even if their problems are self-inflicted but C) believe that that help should be done personally/through churches or other charities, rather than through government and D) are actively involved in compassionate and charitable activities.
Now, probably there are many who do think compassion is weakness, and would never help anyone. But I’m thinking of people like Bill Frist, who if I have the story right, was very much on the conservative side re: philosophy of government, but traveled to Africa to give free medical treatment to the poor and refugees.
Can you cite any well-known conservatives who would say, if you are poor or can’t afford an education, it is your own fault? Or go live under a bridge if the bank forecloses? I suspect you are going over the top again…. :) Just because they don’t think the government is supposed to help doesn’t mean they want people to suffer. Very, very few people want that.
#52
by jscot on Dec 17, 2009 2:20 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Hi, original poster that pissed people off here.
I guess my point of view is that instead of looking at this and the other Mt. Hood tragedy and saying : “My what an unpreventable tragedy” really look at the individual decisions that were made:
Did not take a snow shovel
Did not pay for a MLU
Went hiking the day before a well advertised storm was set to arrive.
Could any of these saved their lives? Im not sure, no one can be. But it gives a chance, however small, that this could have been prevented. Moreover it gives other people, other climbers the opportunity to learn from this situation. Are you really saying that paying attention to the weather forecast, carrying a snow shovel, and renting a $5 MLU are bad things?
People your decisions, no matter how small have impacts and consequences.
Again sorry for your loss.
He's saying none of those things
he’s simply “be more compassionate.”
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 17, 2009 9:13 PM PST up reply actions
Precisely
I didn’t actually see anyone on this thread say “unpreventable”.
Compassion might also mean just holding discussion of those decisions for another few weeks, too. It certainly means showing some respect in how the discussion is carried out.
#52
Actually they went on Friday and the storm did not hit till Tuesday.
Bigger issue is that even if they made mistakes, have the human decency to feel sorry for their death.
We all make mistakes. We don’t all die.
Do you take the same attitude when you drive by a fatal car crash? Do you jump out to see if they are using traction devices or if the tread was worn on their tires? We all take risks. We all make mistakes. We should all use our heads and try to minimize those risks and we should all hope that we don’t die.
by upper left corner on Dec 17, 2009 11:31 PM PST up reply actions
I think this is really not very complicated
If you truly have compassion for those who are playing uphill on a tilted pitch, and if you recognize the reality that private philanthropy is inadequate, inefficient, and reaches far fewer people in need, then doesn’t refusing to support government intervention and assistance make you a either irrational or a hypocrite?
We know from looking at stats from a broad number of countries that private philanthropy just doesn’t meet the need that exists. We know from stats here in the United States that an increasing number of people can not afford post-secondary education. We know that millions are joining the ranks of the health care uninsured.
We know that income inequality has risen to levels not seen since before the Great Depression.
Refusing to support constructive interventions that help people is a “lack of compassion” institutionalized into public policy. The Republicans have become purely a party of obstruction, making no good faith efforts to solve the myriad of policy problems facing our country. Those who support them are either being duped or they are being complicit.
by upper left corner on Dec 17, 2009 11:44 PM PST up reply actions
Government compassion is inherently injust
Those who make good decisions will unfairly be compelled to pay for the consequences of those who make bad decisions.
So you have the compassion-justice tension. Those who opt for the justice end of the spectrum are not by definition uncompassionate. They may just believe that compassion should not be by compulsion.
The world is an imperfect place, and either end of this spectrum has significant problems. I’m not prepared to denigrate those who fall at a different place on the philosophical spectrum than me.
I could say the Democrats have become a party of injustice, running up spending which will only be paid for by those who work, not by those who choose to live on welfare benefits (and we know there are many who do make that choice, not out of necessity — there always will be).
Is that spending unjust? Of course. Is it a necessary injustice, given the circumstances? That is a much different question. Does it mean that the Democrats love injustice? Well, some probably do, just like some conservatives are completely without compassion. But to say that their policies lead to injustice, and thus they are unjust people, isn’t sound any more than to say that conservatives aren’t compassionate.
Oh, and the spending won’t be paid for by taxes on the rich. There is no such thing. The rich are the business owners, and if their taxes increase, so will prices on the goods and services they provide. The common man pays the vast majority of the so-called taxes on the rich. The only real tax on the rich is property or wealth taxes. Income taxes never really tax the rich.
Ultimately, this is VERY complicated, because the world is imperfect, and full of imperfect and selfish people who will take advantage of whatever political policies are adopted, benefiting themselves and damaging the common good. If the compassionists win the political battles, the lazy and irresponsible will take advantage. If the responsibilitists win, the greedy and powerful will take advantage. All you can do is pick your poison and try to strike the right balance and implement enough safeguards to limit the damage.
#52
From those to whom much is given, much is asked.
Progressive taxation seems just in a capitalistic system where a large percentage of the collective wealth of society is almost always concentrated in the hands of a small minority.
Just would mean that everyone was awarded according to the effort they expend and the value they produce. That is not what happens in capitalism. Surplus value is appropriated by capital and becomes the private property of the ownership class. How is that just?
At a minimum, I think we need to take collective action through government to try to “level the playing field” and care for those who are permanently and some times temporarily unable to care for themselves.
For example, the guy who owns a drywall business and hires illegals at sub-minimum wages and then skims the additional profit into his own bank account. Is it just that he expropriates the value created by his obreros? They do the lion’s share of the work, but he takes the lions share of the compensation.
Or to take another example, I went to University with Abby Rockefeller Simpson, great-great grand-daughter to John D. Is it just that she had a lifetime trust fund that meant she would never have to work, but was able to live an extremely comfortable life because of the actions of an ancestor five generations removed?
Under capitalism, effort is only loosely tied to compensation. Many who work very hard, have very little. Capitalism does many things very well, equitably distributing the wealth and benefits of society is not one of them.
I think liberals and conservatives have different frames of reference through which we try to make sense of the world. Your definition of justice and my definition of justice are very different.
I generally see government as an expression of our collective will. It is the way we pool our resources to take care of the many social problems, infrastructure, and public safety needs that can not be addressed through a private enterprise system driven by the logic of profits.
I do not believe that the liberal framework is entirely right and the conservative framework is entirely wrong. My experience and values more often than not lead me to the liberal side. Corporate power has become so entrenched here in the US that it is almost impossible to change the system. Witness attempts to reform health care; the health insurance industry is able to impose its will at the expense of the interests of the majority. Witness attempts to re- regulate the financial and banking sector; the banks are able to scuttle most meaningful reforms. Witness the effort to save the planet from climate change; the coal and oil companies are able to block most of the proposals that could lead to the kind of change needed to avert likely disaster. It is all done in the name of profits and it all makes sense from the point of view of profits, but it is not in the interests of most of the people who live here or the long term health of the planet. I fear for my children and my grand-children.
by upper left corner on Dec 18, 2009 3:48 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Good discussion...
Truls:
My condolences, losing a young friend is never easy… I do wish the tracking devices were required, but it’s an interesting point that the ranger made that it may increase risk-taking… that makes sense too… Take care…
Upper Left, does this mean that your moniker describes your political views, rather than, as I had thought, your seat location in the RG?
In the interest of "fair and balanced", I just wanted to take a devil’s advocate position re: a few of your more provocative statements.
Progressive taxation seems just in a capitalistic system where a large percentage of the collective wealth of society is almost always
concentrated in the hands of a small minority.
1) If the tax rate is 10%, and you make $10,000, you’d pay $1,000. If the tax rate was 10% (don’t I wish) on $100,000 (10 times higher), your tax would be $10,000 (10 times higher). This seems fair and just to many.
2) If your tax rate is 10%, and my tax rate is 20%, my tax would now be 20,000, or 20 times your $1000. Paying 20 times the tax for 10 times the earnings doesn’t seem fair and just to many.
3) The small minority who have concentrated wealth pay accountants huge sums to minimize their taxes. The higher you make the top tax rate, and the bigger the gaps between levels, the more people will choose to pay accountants over the government. The government cannot tax our way to prosperity.
Just would mean that everyone was awarded according to the effort they expend and the value they produce. That is not what happens in capitalism. Surplus value is appropriated by capital and becomes the private property of the ownership class. How is that just?
1) ‘Surplus value’? You mean profit? You mean the revenue that is left after all expenses are paid? That’s why people operate a business. To make money. The ‘surplus value’ is the reward for taking the huge risk of opening your own business. Now, I understand you probably are referring to the stock market, but most of the ‘surplus value’ retained by the ‘ownership class’ is the compensation that encourages someone to create a small business that hires the majority of Americans, and drives the US economy.
2) ‘Ownership class’? You mean the people that own the company? If you have an idea, raise money, hire people, are able to produce something that people will pay for, and pay more than it costs you to make it… who ELSE should get the money but the person who made it all happen?
Under capitalism, effort is only loosely tied to compensation. Many who work very hard, have very little.
1) ‘Effort’ is difficult to gauge. Mental effort is different, but no less valuable, than physical effort. Using your brain all day long is difficult, just as is rising at 4 am to fish. Long years of difficult study can lead to a more relaxed later life. Who exerted more effort:
a. The kid who studied hard, got his bachelor’s degree, got a good job, worked nights getting their master’s degree, got a better job, struck out on their own to create a company, and has worked 60 hours a week for years to build the business, and can now cut back to 20 hours a week, so they have time to volunteer in their community… or
b. The kid who loafed through school, barely graduated, bounced from job to job, not really trying, just waiting for that 5:00 whistle to blow so they can drink their six-pack in front of the TV every night… who now wants free healthcare so he can continue eating off the Dollar Menu…
2) Under capitalism, compensation is negotiated between employer/owner and employee. If you expend more effort, you will typically be rewarded with more compensation. Not fair?
bq. Witness the effort to save the planet from climate change; the coal and oil companies are able to block most of the proposals that could lead to the kind of change needed to avert likely disaster
1) Save the planet?? This planet is going to be just fine. This ecosystem has evolved for billions of years, and the planet will be fine until the sun expands and eats it. This planet has survived ice ages and devastating droughts. Now, those living less than a foot or two above sea level, they may need some saving. But the planet does not.
2) If the earth gets too hot… odds are pretty good that a huge volcano will explode, sending such huge amounts of ash into the atmosphere that the temperature of the entire planet will drop a degree or two for a decade or so… (happened many times before)
3) Rather than spending billions to compensate poor nations who didn’t figure out the industrial revolution until the information age, perhaps we could use those funds to… I dunno… MOVE the people who are at risk? (Cue screaming Sam Kennison and his fine work re: "SAND"!)
by Visionary2 on Dec 18, 2009 8:22 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You did not address the underlying philosophical issue at all
Government compassion is inherently unjust. Those who make good decisions will unfairly be compelled to pay for the consequences of those who make bad decisions.
Virtually every reader of these posts who works will pay taxes. Some of those taxes will go to support those who will not work, or those who have made self-destructive choices (drug/alcohol abuse, etc) which have rendered them unable to support themselves.
That means every working reader is paying higher taxes because of the laziness/irresponsibility of other people. That is simply not justice.
Is it necessary to be unjust on some level to be able to provide a safety net for those in need through no fault of their own? Is it appropriate to be unjust to provide a safety net for those who are in need even through their own poor decisions? A strong case can be made that this injustice IS necessary, though men like Thomas Jefferson would have disagreed.
Whether the injustice is necessary to achieve a higher good is not the question I was raising. It was simply to point out the tension in these questions. Liberals tend to overlook the injustice of process to try to achieve justice of results (equality) and compassion. Conservatives tend to weigh more heavily on justice of process, and to say that equality of results is not necessarily just.
I made no comment about progressive taxation at all. My comment applied to the tax burden upon every taxpayer. Every taxpayer pays more than they should have to in a purely just system, if people were not compelled to subsidize the poor decisions of others. That is true whether you have a flat or progressive tax.
Your Rockefeller example demonstrates my point, though. You can bump up your progressive income tax to the levels that we used to have over here if you want. She will still have immense wealth and advantages by right of birth. And the businesses in which she is invested will simply increase prices to make up any lost income.
In fact, I’m going to be radical here, and say that very high progressive income taxes do one thing only. They keep the rich class pure from incoming rabble. Those who are already very wealthy do not need high taxable incomes, they have tax free investments, tax sheltered income, etc, etc. A high progressive income tax does them no harm at all.
But it keeps the rabble from joining them. If someone gets a good idea, starts a business, works hard, and makes $10 million, if we have a top tax level of 70%, that will keep him from joining the elite ranks of the Kennedys and Rockefellers and Corzines and Bloombergs and such.
That’s why I said the only real taxes on the rich are taxes like property taxes or wealth taxes. Income taxes, no matter how progressive you make them, only increase the gap between the already wealthy and those aspiring to join them.
#52
by jscot on Dec 19, 2009 1:48 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
well stated
I'm going on a Dave boycott until AK1984 is brought back.
by Philthyanimal on Dec 19, 2009 11:59 AM PST up reply actions
I think your philosophy was addressed from the very beginning, when upper left corner spoke out against people blaming the victim, and I agree. Lots of people in need are not in that position because of their own bad decisions. Many are raised without access to the privileges that the majority group enjoy. What’s at fault in that case are the ideologies in our culture that perpetually tip in favor of the majority group (whether that be wealthy, white, christian, male or whatever).
To bring it back somewhat, and to provide an example, let’s say some climbers don’t rush to rely on new technologies because technology hasn’t been a very big part of their life. Is it their fault that maybe they haven’t had access to the latest technologies all their life, so the thought of using a beacon doesn’t carry the same weight that it would to someone who can’t go anywhere without their iphone? I don’t mean to make that judgment on these specific climbers, or this event, just offering the possibility that things aren’t so black and white.
by ripripripcity on Dec 21, 2009 1:54 AM PST up reply actions
I'm not blaming the victim at all
There are those who do wrong and are not victims who take advantage of the system.
Even for them, compassion for the consequences they suffer is appropriate — but that doesn’t necessarily mean other people should necessarily be forced to pay to shield them from those consequences.
If you steal from your employer and get fired, should your honest co-workers have to pay to support you? Is that just?
#52
I can agree with the original comment to an extent
While it comes off as harsh and rude, he has a valid point. There are also two sides to a coin. While the poster is upset because he feels this opinion is insensitive, he himself is also overly sensitive to the entire discussion of the use of the bracelet since he is close to the specific situation or individual being discussed.
I agree that there could have been more taste in opinions that were probably voiced on the radio show, however the OP will probably take offense to anything negative said about this situation. Just my take.
You can still feel sorry for someone for suffering the consequences of their mistakes.
Nobody deserves to die for showing poor judgment, so it’s still a tragedy. But if they somehow make it back alive, are they going to take off without a bracelet the next time there’s a big storm coming in over Mt. Hood? I would hope that they would accept the responsibility for their mistake and learn from it, rather than feel sorry for themselves or blame external circumstances.
What bothers me about this is that it happens EVERY YEAR. It gets easier for us out of shape, non-mountain-climbing types to be insensitive about it every time it happens because the consequences make thrilling headlines each winter. Are adventure prone people spurred on by the challenge whenever another search party is called off for good? If that’s the case, and they really are just turned on by the risk of death, then how can you feel sorry for them? That’s not poor judgement, that’s arrogance and recklessness. It’s still a sad situation and a terrible way to go, IMHO, even if they did it precisely because this might happen.
This is the problem with rating's based media
they care not what they say only what will attract viewers
Draft Cole Aldrich 2010
by jlarose78 on Dec 16, 2009 6:39 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I heard him also
I turned him off this morning after his “get the same car for Gavin that Princess Diana had” attempt of a joke. Then turn on the radio on the way home and heard him talking about the climbers. 0-2 today. The guy is just a tool. He was filling in for Canzano in the afternoon – if I was BFT I would make sure the guy never fills in for me again.
Brandon Roy, 'nuff said.
by johnv59 on Dec 16, 2009 7:33 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Respectfully disagree
I too am very sorry to hear of the loss of your friend.
Please try to understand his choice to not wear a bracelet becomes a public matter when public funds are spent to mount an expensive rescue.
Multi-day rescue attempts like this one involving a lot of people and aircraft hours cost a lot of money and happen every year on Mt Hood when groups go climbing in winter conditions without bracelets.
Its selfish and egotistical for climbers to not wear bracelets and then have their families expect taxpayers to fund these search and rescue attempts.
by ucatchtrout on Dec 16, 2009 7:56 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
You make a valid argument, but that doesn't mean that Chump in Portland ( CIP ) should call these people who have friends and family in the area "idiots" and "tools".
That’s what the OP is saying. He is saying that it is insensitive to call people that are recently deceased “idiots” and “tools”. So do you disagree that CIP shouldn’t call them tools?
And as for them not wearing a bracelet becoming a public matter due to funds, this mountain rescue wouldn’t even COME CLOSE to matching the funds wasted due to irresponsible behavior of people in the Portland metro area EVERY DAY.
I have worked as a paramedic in the Portland area for almost 10 years, and let me tell you, tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars are wasted by taxpayers paying for people who have no business calling 911, or people who drink too much, or drive too fast, or eat too much fast food, or smoke too many cigarettes EVERY DAY. This rescue attempt is a blip on the radar of the public paying for services.
That’s the point of government, to help people, and why people like me go in to emergency services, to help people. The funds are not the problem here. The funds are there. The rescuers are already trained, on duty, paid, and ready when the call comes in. As a long time emergency worker I can tell you that these people enjoy what they do immensely. They love getting the call. They wouldn’t sacrifice their bodies for service as I have if they didn’t want the call to come in.
Oden fan for life
by dario argento on Dec 16, 2009 11:00 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
A hearty thank you for weighing in on the topic
God bless you and those like you who do work in emergency services
Rooo-D!
I agree with you're first paragraph but I take issue with the rest of your comment.
1. Wasting money is still wasting money. Justifying something by pointing to other things that are wrong doesn’t make it right.
2. Our governments role isn’t ‘to help people’ – it’s to protect our rights.
I appreciate your service and to truls, my deepest sympathies for your loss.
by GPeterson82 on Dec 17, 2009 10:56 AM PST up reply actions
With all due respect...
What you call wasting money is not what I’d call wasting money. Emergency rescue is not a waste of money, even if tee person being rescued did not do every little thing that you think they should do. That is simply opening up every element of all of our personal lives to government inspection to see if we are “worthy” of having $ spent on us. I for one am not prepared to go there.
"I'm a man, but I can change.....if I have to......I guess." - Red Green
by antediluvian on Dec 17, 2009 11:49 AM PST up reply actions
The age old question
If government pays for something, does it not have the right to examine how the resource is being used?
Here in the UK, it means that certain treatments/drugs are not available, and thus medical treatment of some conditions becomes a political issue, rather than a medical/scientific one.
By contrast, mountain rescue and UK lifeboats are voluntary organizations supported by charitable donations. Thus, in the UK we tend to be more careful about the risks we take, knowing there is no guarantee of unlimited resources to rescue us, and that there is real cost to important organizations associated with rescues, while when it comes to our health, we can be blissfully irresponsible with our habits knowing that at least the financial burden of it isn’t ours.
#52
have climbers sign a waiver
Will you wear a beacon…yes or no
if no…you will be charged 100% for any rescue attempts
I'm going on a Dave boycott until AK1984 is brought back.
by Philthyanimal on Dec 17, 2009 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
OK, a step further, then
Why are you going up the mountain at all? It’s risky. Why should people have to pay to rescue you when you intentionally are taking a risk you don’t need to take?
If you go up the mountain, you will be charged for any rescue needed. We recommend a beacon, because that is likely to reduce the cost of any rescue.
I just gave the logical extension of that approach, didn’t I?
Where do we draw the line on it all?
Why go up Mt. Hood in the winter at all? You might get snowed in up at Timberline, and the government might have to spend money sending snow plows up the road to dig out the crazy people who got stranded up a mountain. Why take the risk? So they can go skiing? Why don’t they just stay in Portland and watch the Trailblazers for their entertainment, or go jogging for exercise? Why should they be able to do risky things and have the taxpayer cover for the risk? Shouldn’t there be a tax on ski lift tickets, or expensive parking tickets at Timberline, to pay for the cost of clearing the roads?
You know, it’s expensive to have police patrolling the highways. It’s only drivers who need that, because of the risks they take. Shouldn’t that cost be covered by petrol taxes?
People who live in brick or stone houses shouldn’t have to pay as much to support the fire department as those who take the risk of living in wooden houses. Sure, the wooden houses may be cheaper. So you save yourself money knowing the risk of fire is in part paid for by the government, including those who don’t take that risk.
Etc, etc, etc.
But I’m not opposed to your idea at all, just pointing out that the logic of it gets very interesting.
Perhaps this is off topic, and if truls wants us to drop it, I will. The underlying question of the beacons is an interesting one, but has nothing to do with the appropriateness of the way in which it was discussed.
#52
well stated
I'm going on a Dave boycott until AK1984 is brought back.
by Philthyanimal on Dec 17, 2009 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
"2. Our governments role isn’t ‘to help people’ – it’s to protect our rights."
Well, that’s one point of view, a political opinion itself, which is subject to dispute.
it's true - i'm biased
but the original statement can be viewed in the same light.
If what you say about #2 is correct...
then why are we sending so many troops overseas into countries that in the long run mean nothing to a good 90%+ of the American people? They arent there to protect my rights, I know that for sure. They are there to help the people in those countries. They can call it a war on terror all they want to, but when we have so much crap in our own living rooms that needs cleaned up, to me its a bit odd that we choose to spend our own time and money to go over and clean up some guys backyard that we might know from the bar.
What happened on Mt Hood seems to happen often enough to make me wonder why they dont have some kind system in place to keep tabs on climbers up there. I say stick a cell tower or two up high enough to hit the whole mountain and require people to put their cells in GPS mode at least. My step dad goes hiking a lot and never takes a GPS device because he has his cell and it has GPS on it. He also leaves a map at home so we know the area he is going to be in. It still isnt completely foolproof, but it sure is a heck of a lot more then what it appears some people go up there with.
My condolences to the OP and his friends family. The only thing you can hope for at this point is that if he has passed, that his death can become a beacon where people can learn from his mistakes and his triumphs.
"OK, it's going to rain tomorrow. And there is going to be a Greenpeace meeting and hippies are going to be protesting" ~ The Buffet of Goodness on Portland
There isn't really an 'if' about this in my book -
That being said – I agree wholeheartedly with you in regards to our troops overseas.
I'm quite certain that they didn't "expect" any search and rescue to be required.
They underestimated the risk. It was an honest mistake that is costing them quite more than anyone else.
"Travis went all wang-dang diddly wubba SPROING wow-wow on everybody " Dave's recap, season opener
I'm not an expert, but NPR did a short on this subject.
The rescue teams said that the radio bracelets would not have helped them locate the climbers.
“We are not saying, ‘Gee, I wish they had radio bracelets on because then they would be really easy to find.’ That is not what we are saying.” – Mountain Rescue team leader, paraphrase, NPR.
In Bayless I trust.
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is this the guy you saw?
I guess I can understand his arguement against making them mandatory, but I don’t agree with it at all. Maybe instead of going on tv and argueing against them, he should be arguing for full time monitering of the radio freq that these transmitters are using. That only makes sense to me. Saying that we don’t want them mandatory because that encourages people to take more risks is silly to me. There are always going to be people who take dumb risks, but for the mass majority they will use them as intended.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
Like I said, I'm no expert.
Why would he say they wouldn’t help them find the climbers? Are the radio beacons only for communicating?
Personally, I’m not a fan of enforced safety in such situations, but the cost-of-accident argument is quite compelling.
In Bayless I trust.
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><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Sorry about that
I’ve been boycotting all non-Blazer game 95.5 programming (thank you Rome streamlink) because of CIP. The guy really is a wretched human being, even in a shock oriented industry, the lack of class he has is stunning.
I’m truly sorry for your friend, you, and the families and friends impacted by this tragedy. Hopefully, some peace can be found even in this tragedy. I heard the father of the woman in the party speak today about all the support they have received, and I hope you have people in your life providing you the same.
Always supporting Greg Oden.
by blazeraddict on Dec 16, 2009 8:01 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Sorry about your friend.
Of course the bracelets should be mandatory, but that’s something that can be resolved later.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Dec 16, 2009 8:29 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I find this unfortunate
Personally I haven’t listened to 95.5 since moving to Eugene a few months ago, and I was actually more of a fan of CIP than I was of Gavin.. However, I find this type of insensitve rhetoric to be both hurtful and misplaced on a Portland Sports Radio station. This is the type of shock jock crap that has no place on the airwaves that I go to for breaking Blazers news.
truls, I am deeply sorry you actually have a friend/brother/mentor involved in this tragedy, it is a shame they didn’t have the equipment that should by now be mandatory, but it’s not their fault that Mother Nature interrupted their journey.
Numerically Blazers Edge is #25
by Outlaw is Rejector on Dec 16, 2009 8:47 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
CiP and Gaven are always, "over the top" that is their gig.
This hit home for you with the loss of your friend no doubt, so i can understand your feelings on how they expressed their opinion.
That said, I agree with them that the beacons should be mandatory, and the "professional" climbers that called in were, how can I say this nicely…less than convincing in their explaination for not wanting to wear the gear. Every single climber I know, including those who climb Mt. Hood in winter or summer, wear them, it is part of your gear, there is no reason to not wear them. I know guys and girls who will not wear them, and honestly they are against the use because they say they are experienced enough that they don’t need them. Experience helps climbers avoid mistakes, but accidents happen, natural disasters happen, things out of experienced hands happen, in those times the bracelets save lives.
Nothing can ease the loss of a loved one, hopefully your friend can be found miraculously alive eventhough many have given up hope. No matter the out come of the search, hopefully this can help push more states to make these type of locater beacons mandatory.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
by usmcr3049 on Dec 16, 2009 9:14 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
I hate that attitude
I heard much the same ridiculous vitriol spewed about the poor family who got stuck on Bear Camp road. People make mistakes every day. Every person. Many of them big caliber mistakes. It’s just that these rarely lead to such tragedy. So when they do, I think this sort of macho BS is simply a coping mechanism. It is both an expression of relief that one’s own mistakes didn’t lead to tragedy and a primal expression of genetic superiority. Small minded folks will find any means to make themselves appear superior, and particularly when they have no means of excelling themselves, that often materializes in the form of throwing others under the genetic bus.
Sorry about your friend
but in all fairness climbers who don’t use those beacons should should have to pay for the cost of their rescue. It is a huge strain on our budget that can be avoided. I hate to be so negative during a rough time for you.
I'm going on a Dave boycott until AK1984 is brought back.
So sorry to hear about your friend. I heard Chump in Portland starting on that rant and changed the station cuz it was pissing me off.
You should have all the people who knew him write a letter to 95.5 stating how chump in portland owes you all an apology.
Oden fan for life
by dario argento on Dec 16, 2009 11:04 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the comments and well-wishes
I can even understand and partially agree with the logic of those of you who are arguing about the search attempts costs to taxpayers and obviously the risks that the team took when they started with their assent.
What I cannot agree with is the sentiment that they got what they deserved.
Truth is there was an accident at some point on the climb that no homing beacon would have fixed, perhaps there is a possibility that had they had a locater one or more of them would have gotten off the mountain alive. As I have said I sincerely wish that they would have had one.
Given that, what this has pointed out to me is the deplorable state our society is in…tonight at the youth group where Anthony would often teach there were 60 or so teenagers deeply hurt and grieving, and there are people in this world so disconnected that they belittle and villify people that are just recently deceased through no real fault of their own. (Make no mistake theses wonderful people are no longer with us due to some sort of accident that happened on the climb, not necessarily because they did not have a locater)
Rooo-D!
by truls on Dec 16, 2009 11:06 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I'm sorry again for your loss. And I'm sorry you had to hear chump in portlands stupid insensitive remarks.
Perhaps some good can come of this. Perhaps this will inspire a movement to ensure more people wear the locater bracelets and even save lives. That would make your friend happy I’m sure.
Oden fan for life
by dario argento on Dec 16, 2009 11:21 PM PST up reply actions
no one deserves to die
as long as they do not cause harm to others. what has happened is unfortunate, and although i agree with CIP that people should wear beacons…he was extremely unsensitive as usual. even if the homing beacon wouldn’t have worked shouldnt be an excuse not to wear one however.
i’m not a climber, but i do not understand the reasoning people are using when they dont wear one. we dont get in car accidents regularly…and we don’t fall off our bikes all that often either, yet we required to wear seat belts and helmets (in some areas). how many more climbers need to turn up missing until the government requires that everyone wears one? if the govt requires climbers to wear them, will climbers quit climbing bc they refuse to?
I'm going on a Dave boycott until AK1984 is brought back.
by Philthyanimal on Dec 17, 2009 1:53 AM PST up reply actions
I am very sad for the situation and your loss
I am with you 100% on this post, truls. All the way. Many of us are blaming the victim. Hell, I’ve done it before. It’s a bias that needs to be called out. We need to separate People from the Problems. And in the week or so, or longer, after the tragedy isn’t the time for casting blame, judging, or calling names. Like Chad Doing does.
That’s not shock jock, it’s just plain wrong and mean-spirited and he’s behind the mic at a media outlet that is the flagship of the Blazers. Who owns 95.5? I remember a flap about Canzano working for Paul Allen’s company, so is this still the case? The Blazers have done a lot of great work making their organization community-minded and classy. IF Chad even belongs on the radio, and that’s a huge IF, he belongs in a medium and format that is completely different. It’s funny that people say shock jock, or say “if you don’t like Howard Stern, don’t listen to him.” That’s easy, Stern is on pay radio. This is Portland Oregon and this is our team. I’m sick of the guy. That’s why we’re here talking about him.
Doing ought to be on a format where he can be sexist, lewd, inappropriate and discriminatory and offending toward people he wants to use for his lame attempts at comedy. Basically that’s pay radio! But as long as it isn’t 95.5 The Game I’d be happy, because I like having a local sports radio station I can stand listening to without dealing with this kind of violation and bullcrap.
So in this kitchen-sink thread with grief, venting, sports, issues of all kinds (conservative and liberal), i think Truls is right on with every one of his points. There’s a time and a place. I know sports talk radio in the morning isn’t the place for maturity, it’s not the place for sensitivity, but when people are dying and their loved ones are grieving, gimme a break. Stop blaming the victim. Focus on the problem. Have some compassion. We can do all that and be accountable and responsible, can’t we? These aren’t mutually exclusive things.
Paul allen sold 95.5 and KXL
I'm going on a Dave boycott until AK1984 is brought back.
by Philthyanimal on Dec 19, 2009 12:00 PM PST up reply actions
As a guy with some SAR experience
Once with a close friend this hits pretty hard,I would suggest that if the same jerks who talk that kind of garbage while texting or yaking on the phone wind up in the ditch or river they are not entitled to public funds to rescue them,let them die.Having said that I am in favor of the bracelets and I also approve of the if you need a chopper ride we are leaving your gear behind policy to discourage people from using it for a free taxi
service,sorry about your loss
by southern oregon on Dec 16, 2009 11:30 PM PST reply actions
You are 100% correct
There is a decent way to discuss these issues. There is a question to be discussed about requiring safety precautions, and whether those who take these risks should bear some financial responsibility, as well.
Those are valid issues. In an ideal world, those wouldn’t be discussed for a few weeks. We don’t live in an ideal world, and those who have their own agendas will push them.
But in any event, there is absolutely nothing profitable to be gained by discussing in this way, and a lot of damage to be done. And you will never persuade anyone who disagrees with you, when you take this kind of approach. But these guys don’t want to persuade, they just want to stir emotions.
#52
I'm sorry you're going through all this
I was a grade schooler at OES the year of their tragic climbing accident. And while they were all older than me, I still had a pretty close connection with a couple of people who went up there. I still remember how helpless I felt sitting next to the tv hoping for some good news as well as how sad I was when they finally announced the names of the students who perished up there.
Losing a good friend or loved one is never easy and I do hope that you have people to talk to right now. Probably a good idea to stay off the talk radio for the time being too. Especially when you got someone like that little twat “CIP” running his mouth off. Chad signifies the absolute worst I see in people. He’s small minded, petty, and uses a tragedy like this as an opportunity to feel better about himself. There’s nothing you can do about scum like that except get them out of your life as quickly as possible. Again, I’m so very sorry about your loss and everything you’re going through right now.
"We didn't start the fire. It was always burning. Since the world's been turning." - E. E. Cummings
by Sexual Tyrannosaurus on Dec 17, 2009 1:41 AM PST reply actions
Very sorry for your loss
People like your friend who enjoy getting out there in the world and exploring are often the type to get a lot out of life. He must have been a treasure to know.
Honor Alaa Abdelnaby.
First in the NBA. At least alphabetically
I was listening to that segment yesterday.
And I think you’re absolutely wrong.
The caller said that he would rather DIE than suffer from the stigma of being viewed as “incompetent” because he wore a locator beacon.
To me, that is straight up ridiculous. I don’t often side with Gavin, but frankly, if your pride is such an issue that you’re willing to not only risk your life, but effect the lives of your family and friends, then you really do have a screw loose.
And as far as I recall, Gavin never said ANYTHING about being mentally handicapped.
"Ain't nothin' in this world for free."
The part of that caller that really got to me was
what he said, that no one that climbs with him would be allowed to wear one, because he wouldn’t let them. I am not really sure he was a climber because who could say such obviously backwards things about the sport? It is about challenging yourself and having fun, wearing or not wearing a bracelet has nothing to do with it. From the part that I heard, most of CiP and all of Gavin’s insults were against this one caller, who deserved every bit of it because he was incredibly stupid.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
That was the one part I heard as well
I gotta say that I am on the side that they should be manatory…plus this same guy or someone who came on shortly after made the point that this was good practice for the rescuers. I would have been hard pressed not to call that guy a tool. That being said …I am sad for the OPs loss.
" Welcome to the Bedge....where good, is never good enough"…Rudiculous
by 92wastheyear on Dec 17, 2009 8:29 AM PST up reply actions
I was listening at that time and that is what I heard, as well.
Most of the insults from CiP were being lobbed at that one particular caller and not at those who were missing. In fact, CiP and Gavin shredded this guy for a good 15 minutes with barely a mention of the real story. Not that I feel any particular loyalty to either CiP or Gavin, but there was nothing slanderous toward the missing climbers from them. I don’t necessarily agree with CiP allowing callers to come on and slam the missing climbers but he at least he let that caller know it was unacceptable. I think you’ve taken the one particular caller’s comments and their reaction to it out of context.
Nonetheless, it is tragic and unfortunate.
Let's do it for the big man!...and Rudy!....and Nic!...and, uh, Trout, Pendy, Patty, Mo, Mr. Allen, and Nate!
Rehab With Us
Well.
I think you’re misinterpreting what the main point of the post was… and that is that CIP was showing a lack of class by making the insults he made (and allowing his callers to do so) while his friend’s still lost on the mountain… He could have made the exact same point, and made it much better, if he had restrained the insults and simply said what he believed in a measured and restrained voice. But when you start hurling insults at someone, right after their (assumed) death, it’s just completely unproductive.
It’s the same thing with Chris Henry… Everybody can obviously see this guy was someone who was constantly bringing trouble on himself throughout his entire life… and had some serious issues with rage and self-control. And all those things finally added up and killed him. That’s pretty much indisputable, considering the circumstances of his death.
But insulting him and name-calling the guy is just not what people with class do that close to someone’s death. You just don’t do it.
The only insult he made was that this guy needs to be institutionalized?
How do you criticize somebody’s point other than to say you think they’re crazy for having the viewpoint they have? Saying what he said wasn’t really that outrageous or classless considering the magnitude of what that idiotic caller said.
This whole “mentally handicapped” thing came out of no where because CIP sure didn’t say it.
"Ain't nothin' in this world for free."
Calling someone crazy for their viewpoint is NOT an argument
And Chad was insinuating that my friend was crazy and deserved what he got way before the over-the-top hardcore climber guy called in.
Rooo-D!
You're putting words in his mouth.
CIP never said he deserved what he got.
"Ain't nothin' in this world for free."
I did not hear any such thing
and I was listening to the whole segment. I will go to 955thegame.com and listen to the podcast again, but i recommend you do the same. Your loss is saddening and for that I truly offer my condolences. I do think you are mistaken on his comments though. If I am wrong I truly apologize for that as well. I would never condone such comments myself.
That is exactly who the comments were directed towards.
That one caller set him off on that rant and he directed towards him only. “I would rather die on the mountain than be viewed as incompetent…,” wait, really?!?! I listened to the whole segment. CiP has a history of over-the-top comments, but certainly here he was taken out of context. I am truly sorry for your presumed loss, although I like to hold out hope until no longer allowed, and would never wish such a tragedy on anyone. I do not understand why year after year we have to hear of such tragedies though. Why won’t people give up on stubborness and realize that the possibility of unknowns and freak accidents is a reality? Mother nature is never predictable. Especially on a mountain that claims the lives of people almost annually. I just don’t get it.
I am sorry for your loss
I heard this conversation on the radio yesterday and was equally put off by it. I wish there was another sports talk radio station besides the two we have – neither one cuts the mustard. – Elgin
Travis Outlaw, the Funnel Cake of the Blazers
Sorry for your loss...
Sorry about your friend. It’s easy for us (and CIP) to say he is an idiot for not wearing come sort of location device, but none of us (including CIP) know your friend and what he was thinking or what happened. Though, I agree that people should wear some sort of device no matter how experienced, CIP (as usual) went about discussing a sensitive topic in a crude way. I would tell you not to worry about that guy, He’s a voice who clowns on everyone as he sits with plenty of flaws. We could create a long list of his faults and listeners don’t even know him. The tragedy of this all is that families ad friend lost loved ones. We learned the hard way. Keep your head up.
Contempt appears to be the dominant emotion in CIP's toolbox.
Listen to the guy and make a tally of the emotions he’s presenting. I did it for 15 minutes and came up with 8 comtempts, three attempts at humiliation and 1 obsequious ***kissing. Communication is more than having an opinion; it is also managing social relationships. It’s at the very least ineffective to make an point while raising yourself by humiliating others. Although this is obviously a minority opinion given the state of talk radio.
This post took CIP and Gavin out of context.
Sorry for your loss, but your quotes and examples you took from the segment weren’t about your friend, they were directed towards a caller who deserved the remarks. The caller stated that he wouldn’t even climb with someone who wore a locater because it’s an embarassment and shows you’re not experienced. And then he finished it off by saying he’d rather die climbing than wear one. He obviously deserved what he got. Again, sorry for your friend. CIP and Gavin do what they do for entertainment and sometimes go too far, but they weren’t aiming it at your friend from what I heard and were making valid points for the most part.
"He obviously deserved what he got"
As in the caller deserved what he got. No one deserves to die for that, but when talking about the topic aside from an actual death, then yes you should always wear one and wearing one is your responsibility.
get the podcast of the BFT from yesterday...
listen to it….I have already stated Chad was making demeaning statements before the “i’d rather die than wear a bracelet” guy called up.
There have already been several posts on here from people who heard what I heard
Rooo-D!
How about a waiver
stating that if you don’t carry a beacon that you don’t want a rescue party. You would still have a choice that way.
Sorry to hear that you're going through this, truls
I lost a family member in 2002 while he was climbing Mt. Hood – members of another group above him slipped and slid into his party. A pure accident, but still painful for those of us who knew him.
It’s a shame when people have to resort to name-calling instead of intelligent discussion of an issue…..
"It's Our Time":http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O99POVJfglY
So sorry you and your friends/loved ones are caught up in this situation.
I went through a similar situation a few years ago and can only say my thoughts are with you, the friends and the families of those three. Things like this are never easy.
All that aside, I don’t listen to 95.5 anymore and suggest you do the same. I listen to Blazer broadcasts and Blazer broadcasts only. Other than that, the local sports talk is small potatoes and complete crap in terms of talent. I mean, these guys are maxed out in terms of potential (Except maybe Canzano). They’re only going to go down to smaller markets, and this is especially true for a classless D-Bag like Chad.
CiP is a tool
but I also see the whole climbing Hood in the middle of winter without a beacon about the same as riding a motorcycle without a helmet and dying from a head injury, or a non-swimmer drowning in a boat accident while not wearing a lifejacket. I’m sorry for the loss of friends, but participating in an inherently dangerous activity and then not taking a simple, easy precaution is sort of asking for trouble.
It certainly tempts fate, but hindsight is 20-20. Most experienced climbers don’t have problems getting up and getting back down. Something unexpected usually happens and it’s that curve ball that no one expects.
I think that people should definitely safeguard themselves and learn from horrible incidents like this. Use the beacons, just in case.
Get It Right
Truls-
The loss is terrible and I am definitely sorry for that…but please get it right. It sounds like you came in at the middle of the program and misinterpreted CIP’s statements.
A CALLER said he WOULD RATHER DIE than bring an MLU, that in his “climbing circle” you are considered incompetent if you have an MLU, etc. CIP responded to THE CALLER, not to the climbers lost on hood. He berated THE CALLER and called HIS statements into question….not your friends’. The caller was AN IDIOT and deserved CIPs response.
I am not a “mountaineer” but I have climbed Hood multiple times, the first time paying for a guided trip via Timberline Mountain Guides. One of the first things they insisted on was that the group have an MLU. The things are like $5 to rent, why would you NOT take one?
There is a lot of debate about when / if / etc. to have an MLU. An argument against them is that they provide false sense of security, which I could see happening. My point is that the caller CIP ragged on was an arrogant moron and deserved what he got. If your buddies think you are “incompetent” because you take precautions then you need to find new buddies. What you heard was CIPs and other callers’ responses to THE CALLER, not the climbers lost on Hood.
Again I am sorry for the loss, it is a terrible tragedy…but pointing a finger at CIP is not right in this case.
go here
Download hour 2…fast forward to the 33 minute mark and listen.
This was well before the guy called in during hour 3
Rooo-D!
Good info...
Thanks for pointing this out and again I can see where Truls is coming from. Admittedly I came into the show at 5, just a bit before the idiot “professional mountaineer” caller and after the section you linked above. Yes CIP said what he said about climbing without an MLU. I really doubt he had any intent to throw this in the face of the victims families, friends, etc. Personally I think he was just stating the obvious in no uncertain terms. If you’re going to climb, particularly in the middle of WINTER, why would you not take the precaution of having the MLU, Avalanche beacon, etc? This is a debate that happens over and over…the exact same thing happened a couple years ago with the 3 climbers who died mid-December and didn’t have an MLU. Either way it’s tragic.
Honestly, my response was a bit of a knee jerk reaction. Too many times I hear people whining about CIPs commentary. If you don’t like it, don’t listen. It’s as simple as that. I think Howard Stern is a jackass. And guess what? I don’t listen to him. And I also don’t sit around complaining about him either. If you are not a fan of CIP then when he is on the air, listen to something else.
Why particularly in winter?
It is much safer than summer on Hood.
In Bayless I trust.
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Huh?
Where are you getting your information? Go here and look at the major accident history :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Hood_climbing_accidents
Not to mention, the kind of danger during the typical climbing season is different from that during winter. Summer climbers are less subject to avalanche, severe weather, etc., and being unreachable for rescue should an accident occur. That is why I said “particularly in WINTER” regarding the use of an MLU.
But if you are talking about accidents that don’t necessarily result in death or where an MLU would not have any bearing, then I am sure you’re right. Summer is extremely busy up there and in that respect it is more dangerous.
Good point about when an MLU would be most useful.
And about incidence/population.
In Bayless I trust.
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It's hard not to listen to the guy because he's on the station a lot
I like Gavin Dawson (a native Portlander and a true radio professional), and I like having a local sports show in the morning. Damn, CiP pretty much blows that listening opportunity.
I like listening to Jim Rome, and CiP checks in with an inept and juvenile sports report three times an hour or whatever.
I don’t mind checking in on what Canzano or his subs have to say on his show. Then they give that chair to CiP and lo and behold the guy offends half of Portland with his opinion.
I agree with you that it doesn’t make a lot of sense to not have an MLU, but sometimes it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it.
The guy isn’t even qualified to be a shock jock because he’s never funny.
That's why there's the AM channel...
Whenever I hear the Chump speak, I just hit one button….and go to AM… I’ll gladly listen even to Cowherd over his bleating…
I'm saddened every year when this happens.
But it doesn’t change the fact that not having a locator beacon on your person when you attempt so summit a mountain is foolish and irresponsible. I have never heard a good excuse for not taking one with you, ever. In my view, if you turn down a locator beacon, you should be informed that no public funds will be spent trying to rescue you. Maybe that will wake people up enough to take the proper precautions. These people spend thousands on gear, yet fail to do the one small thing that could save their life if they run into trouble. I just don’t get it.
Rec'd
Wow…
"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
"If the NBA were on channel 5 and a bunch of frogs making love were on channel 4, I'd watch the frogs, even if they were coming in fuzzy." - Bobby Knight
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
To contact the station directly and complain about Chad The Dumba** Doing
Call the front desk of 95.5 The Game: 503-243-7595
Write the station manager, 95.5 The Game
0234 SW Bancroft
Portland OR 97239
If anybody has an email for the station’s GM, let me know so I can “pound that monkey” to fire Chad.
by Dodoh on Dec 18, 2009 5:07 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
You bet, let's write in and at the very least, we'll have our letters in a stack about how big a D-bag the guy is.
Someday he’s gonna go too far and he’ll get canned, and I’m gonna smile.
the sad truth is nothing will be done
Chad has made offensive and uncompassionate remarks many times and nothing has even been done. His act has never been toned down, in fact it’s all about the next over the top outrageous and egregious comment he can make to get people’s attention. I really do my best not to listen because I find his radio personality to be obvious,shallow and soulless. Sadly. 95.5 the Game believes appealing to the lowest common denominator is the most efficient way to attract listeners. This is how much respect they have for you, the listener. My advice is tune it out, brace yourself for the next offensive insult, or pray for their souls.
"In order to keep a true perspective of one's importance, everyone should have a dog that will worship him and a cat that will ignore him."
and thanks for your brave fanpost, this thread might be hard for you to take, and this is probably not what you were looking for
to start a tempest in a teapot.
A dear friend of mine...
was camping at the coast, went swimming at night, and was swept away by the Pacific. When what was left of his body came ashore two weeks later the Oregonian printed a brief, very cold, very graphic news article describing the remains (missing limbs, face, genitals). No mention of, or consideration for, his grieving friends and family in Portland and elsewhere. Despite angry letters, one of which got printed in the paper, no apology was given.
My friend was also in his mid 20’s, full of life and excitement, and a true joy to those who were lucky enough to have known him.
Too soon, bro.
I know your pain and I am very sorry to hear about your friend.
Da Zeuhl Wortz Mekanik
Possibly throwing my life away just doesn't seem all that enticing to me.
I just don’t really get it, maybe I just have more to live for. I wonder if these climbers ever ask their loved ones if they’d prefer they wear a locator.
My mother drank herself to death. I think it was really dumb. Yeah she was a loved one. So what. Dumb is dumb.
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