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Around SBN: Celtics, Heat Score On Purpose In Super Sunday Wins

Media Row Report: Blazers 95 Kings 88

Forget about the rumored trade demand.  Jerryd Bayless is demanding burn.

It feels like I've written the "Jerryd Bayless just had a breakout game" post a few times over the last 18 months so I'll spare you some of that hype. I'm sure you'll gladly pick up the slack in the comments.  Bayless provided the spark tonight while an inspired Brandon Roy and a second-half-inspired LaMarcus Aldridge did the heavy lifting, carrying the Portland Trail Blazers to a come-from-behind 95-88 win over the Sacramento Kings in Portland.

Roy finished with 25 points, 5 rebounds and a season-high 10 assists.  Aldridge went for 25 points, 9 boards and 5 assists.  The pleasant surprise was Bayless, who torpedoed to the hoop time and again down the stretch on his way to 14 points, including 8 of 10 from the free throw line.  Every single thing that the numbers suggested Bayless would do if given more playing time he did in 24 minutes tonight.  He got to the basket, got to the foul line, converted a high percentage of his field goal attempts, struggled with the longer shots, got some ticky tacky fouls, moved the ball and read defenses better than last year, and, perhaps most importantly, protected the basketball.  It felt like a Synergy Sports scripted movie tonight. It's unclear whether Synergy robotically controls Bayless's body or if he is acting independently.  

Either way, Bayless's solid play earned him crunch time minutes and a solid review from his head coach.  After the game, Nate McMillan said "Bayless was big" and praised his point guard's scoring and energy.  In the locker room, a smiling Roy added, "He's an aggressive attacker. Even in practice, we can't keep him out of the paint. Tonight I just told him, 'keep being aggressive. We need you to try to make plays. Don't go out there and think too much. Just be aggressive and make plays.' I think he did a great job of that tonight."

A great job that was fully appreciated by the Rose Garden crowd.  The always-boisterous section 314 even started a "Jerryd! Bay-Less! clap clap clap-clap-clap" while Bayless stood at the free throw line during the fourth quarter.  It was a surreal sound and an equally surreal sight to see Bayless handling himself with poise on both ends down the stretch of a close must-win game.

The team's improved energy started before Bayless ever took the court.  The Blazers had one of their best starts in recent memory, putting up 17 points in the game's first six minutes, whipping the ball around the perimeter and moving off the ball like we've rarely seen this season.  It also happened to be Andre Miller's first start.  Not a coincidence. Roy looked particularly motivated early and, more than anything, decisive.  It was no accident he finished with 10 assists; his reads were consistently on point from the opening tip.

This win wasn't all roses for the Blazers thanks to a strong push from the Kings, who regularly and routinely exploited the Blazers' interior defense, especially when Joel Przybilla wasn't on the court.  At one point, Kevin Pelton started chanting at the top of his lungs for the Blazers to find an immediate replacement for Juwan Howard. It was as awkward as you might imagine.  Dante Cunningham found himself playing only spot duty -- as has been the case recently -- due to the coaching staff's reluctance to match him against bigger, full-sized power forwards.  Lack of frontcourt size is starting to show itself to be a fairly large problem, as evidenced by the Kings' 42 points in the paint tonight.  If not remedied in the short term, it could certainly cost the team some wins, especially if Aldridge and Przybilla are unable to avoid fouls as successfully as they did tonight.  

When it counted, though, the Blazers defense did a solid job of locking down. In the fourth quarter the Kings shot just 6 of 19 and were 1 of 6 from distance.  The Blazers fielded an unorthodox 3 guard combination of Steve Blake, Brandon Roy and Jerryd Bayless, which succeeded in throwing off the Kings just enough.  Whether that is a lineup that can provide sustained defensive success -- especially down the stretch against the league's offensive juggernauts -- remains to be seen. (Doubtful.)  

But McMillan's willingness to trust a unit that was having success -- even if it wasn't the most likely unit -- is probably the best long-term sign from tonight's game.  If Martell Webster isn't hitting shots, sit him.  If Andre Miller isn't hitting shots, sit him.  If Jerryd Bayless is rolling, play him.  It's certainly not complicated but it hasn't always been McMillan's approach.  Good times. Good times that might not last.  But, still, good times.

A win tonight was so necessary for a Blazers team that has been reeling for the last few weeks.  The mood in the locker room after the game was loose and, dare I say, happy.  Tonight the juggling worked.  

Random Game Notes

  • Kings rookie guard Tyreke Evans was, as they say, all that.  More impressive than he was during the preseason, which was impressive indeed.  His numbers were great  -- 17, 7, 3, 2 steals, 1 block, 1 turnover in 32 minutes. His demeanor and cool even better. He passes to space fearlessly and intelligently; he sees passes and angles his teammates don't yet see. He plays hard.  He rises to challenges. He is tough. He is level-headed.  His touch at the rim is next level. Body control out of this world. There was an unmistakable feeling to tonight's game that within say, two years, the buzz before the Kings come to town will rival just about any other team in the league, simply because of Evans' presence.  Rolling your eyes at this praise? Go check out Nate McMillan's comments below.  He compared Evans to Magic Johnson. And was dead serious.
  • Prior to the game, Washington Husky Jon Brockman asked me what time it was.  I contemplated barking the time back to him but decided against it.  Pelton was crushed.
  • Sergio Rodriguez: 0 for 3. 2 points, 2 assists, 2 turnovers in 8 minutes.  So that's why Kevin Pritchard paid the Sacramento Kings to accept you in a trade.  An unfortunate return home for Rodriguez, who has enjoyed some success this season.
  • Jerryd Bayless picked the warmup music tonight: "All the Way Turnt Up." Music is an expression of self.

Nate's Postgame Comments

Nate came slowly into his postgame room due to the crutches he is now using after his Achilles surgery.

This is some different stuff so just be patient.

Initial thoughts

I liked the fight. I liked the scrap in the team. We didn't have -- that first half was not really a good half for us. They dominated us on the boards. Pretty much got what they wanted. In the second half, there was a challenge to LaMarcus to -- we're going to go through you. I thought he responded, he had 1 rebound in the first half, ended up with 9. Offensively he got us that momentum.

Blake stuck with it. Looked like he was struggling again, he kept staying with it, knocked down his shot late in that game. Bayless came off and gave us some energy, some scoring. The two main guys, Brandon and LaMarcus, we're going to ride those guys and we're going to play off of them. We need some other guys to step up and I thought we got that from our bench and Bayless was big.

You challenged LaMarcus?

Because he had one rebound. That first half, even though he wasn't totally responsible for that, they have 15 second chance points. They had 15 at the half, they finished with 17. 

You needed a win?

We needed a win. For us, we can't make a lot of mistakes because of the depth that we have. The personnel that we have. We have to play almost flawless ball and we've got to outscrap you, outhustle you, outwork you. Keep believing in ourselves. We didn't shoot the ball well. We're still struggling with perimeter j's. When we have open looks -- I thought we had some open looks in the first half -- but the second half we got some things going where we were going to the basket.

LaMarcus playing injured?

We had a lot of guys injured around here as you know. He keeps playing through it. We needed him. We don't win tonight if he doesn't do what he did late in this game. I like the fact that we got 26 free throws tonight, we were attacking, getting to the basket. We missed a ton but we were getting to the basket.

Playing Bayless, Blake and Roy down the stretch?

My thing was, we were rolling with him, defensively we made the adjustment. Evans is really good, made the adjustment to get Brandon, some size, on him. Bump Bayless over to keep him in the game. That worked out for us. That put a halt to Evans where he was hurting us and still allowed us to keep Bayless in the game.

Miller starting?

I thought Miller when he was in there with that group we scored. The first and the third. We did some good things. It's going to take some time with that combination. Getting a feel for each other. Today was the first time they've played a lot of minutes together -- Brandon, Miller, Martell, LA and Joel.

Will you keep starting Miller?

We're going to stay with that lineup.

Miller didn't play down the stretch?

Right now we're going to go with what's hot, what's working. If guys got a rhythm I have to try and stick with them because it's not a lot of places we can go. That wasn't just a feel tonight, where it's working, it got us back into the game. Miller done some good things but let's stay with it and see what happens.

Thoughts on Tyreke Evans

I think that kid is really, really good. I watched him on tape and just how he moves, I think he has some -- this is, you hate to compare players like this -- but I think he's got some Magic in him. He's a big guard that can see the floor. He's unselfish. He gets to the rim. He uses his body very well. He's good in transition. He can rebound and push the ball. A small or big guard doesn't really faze him. He sees the floor extremely well. That team is where they are because of Coach Westphal of course. Evans, he plays 3 positions -- 1, 2 and 3 -- who knows, when they get some of their guys back, you may even see him at some 4 because he's got a big body. He's going to be a very good player.

He doesn't play like a rookie, does he?

He's strong. He's confident. He's under control. What you saw out there was a young guy just taking a game over. He never looked out of control. It wasn't a selfish thing. Taking advantage of opportunities. Defensively he's not bad. He can defend too. He's a good player.

-- Ben Golliver | benjamin.golliver@gmail.com | Twitter

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Good stuff Ben.

I like the reporter-tyle..ugh…report…coupled with the blogger-style random game notes. It makes a really good piece that’s both professional and interesting to read.

by prezofdeath on Dec 16, 2009 1:37 AM PST reply actions  

The "Jerryd Bayless" chant

Was actually started by me and my buddies in 312. The good fellas in 314 just helped us out after it started. But it was us. We knew they would join in. We were also the ones who started the LMA “Cut The Check” chant during the preseason. And if at any point this year you hear a “Javie Sucks”, that one will be from The Juice and Co. too. We’re just biding our time on that one…

I want Greg Oden to tuck me in at night and tell me stories about the old times

by Juiceman76 on Dec 16, 2009 2:55 AM PST via mobile reply actions  

Props

for hilarity, awkwardness and all around spirit of the “Jerryd Bayless” chant.

by thetsaiguy on Dec 16, 2009 12:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Thank you for doing that Juiceman!

That is awesome. – Elgin

Travis Outlaw, the Funnel Cake of the Blazers

by 22baylor on Dec 16, 2009 2:06 PM PST up reply actions  

PS. You are right

Javie sucks the giant stogie. – Elgin

Travis Outlaw, the Funnel Cake of the Blazers

by 22baylor on Dec 16, 2009 2:06 PM PST up reply actions  

At first I thought bayless might fade in his first attempt with more minutes

but the coaches had faith and it paid off in the 4th. Too bad we didnt see more time against the bucks, we couldve got that win too.

by tevisthe4th on Dec 16, 2009 3:00 AM PST reply actions  

In the latter part of the 4th quarter...

Great effort by Roy and Bayless in denying Tyreke Evans the ball. I think it really took Sacramento out of its offensive rhythm cause clearly they were trying to get Evans to ball and work through him.

Again, great effort by Roy and Bayless.

Pryzbilla was a +27. He’s the only guy that can get rebounds and prevent 2nd chance points right now. Good move by the coaching staff in getting Pryz out of there in the 3rd quarter for a short 3 minute rest and then they went right back to him early in the 4th quarter. We needed Pryz more than anybody tonight.

by jukelike20 on Dec 16, 2009 6:29 AM PST reply actions  

That will continue...

Przy has become possibly the most important guy on the team because he’s the only rebounder and interior defensive presence. The Blazers have no back up center. At all. Juwon Howard is a poor rebounder at the four spot, and even in his prime he couldn’t play five. LMA is not a good enough rebounder to compensate. So whenever Joel is off the court, the Blazers are a disaster on the boards.

Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.

by KP Corleone on Dec 16, 2009 7:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Turiaf
The Kings…exploited the Blazers’ interior defense, especially when Joel Przybilla wasn’t on the court.

Ronny, Turiaf

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Dec 16, 2009 10:00 AM PST up reply actions  

That would be awesome!

That guy plays with so much heart. Go Zags!

by pedalhome on Dec 16, 2009 10:11 AM PST up reply actions  

Probably not available

He’d obviously be a good fit, not just now, but next year as well.

But since we don’t know if he’s available, or what he would cost, I’ll keep hoping Pendergraph can help a little. I’m sure if KP can make a move that helps us now without hurting the future, he’ll do it.

#52

by jscot on Dec 16, 2009 10:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Cunningham > Pendergraph

And Howard is getting more run than Dante, right now

Jeff is not a shot blocker, and as a rookie (2nd round draft choice, with no training camp experience) we shouldn’t expect much from him this year

He’s another body for practice, same with Mills

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Dec 16, 2009 11:38 AM PST up reply actions  

If we can get some defensive rebounding out of him

I’d be happy.

Seeing as how he was drafted first, and the only basis of comparison between the two is Summer League (and Koponen has had a better SL than Batum), I’m not sure how anyone can state with confidence that Cunningham is better than Pendergraph.

Pendergraph is a bigger body, and that might make a difference with our current roster.

#52

by jscot on Dec 16, 2009 1:11 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm confident

If Jeff proves me wrong, there’s no harm no foul

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Dec 16, 2009 2:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Draft order
Seeing as how he was drafted first

I suspect the main reason that Pend was drafted 31 and DC 33 was that KP was concerned that Jeff might be selected at 32. But these kind of decisions aren’t necessarily a determiner of the present/future ability of the players

One of my favorite examples is the 1976 Blazer draft. Major Jones was drafted 20 and Johnny Davis was drafted 22. Need I say more?

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Dec 16, 2009 2:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Major Jones was drafted 20 and Johnny Davis was drafted 22…both by Portland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_NBA_Draft

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Dec 16, 2009 2:41 PM PST up reply actions  

BTW, Ramsay was sweating that 21st pick

Jack had asked for a quick guard to be added to the roster, and Stu Inman told him Davis was the best choice. When the 20th pick came around Jack was chanting Davis’ name loudly in Stu’s ear, but Inman “knew” that Davis would still be available at 22, so he picked Jones, first.

Then Earl Tatum was selected 21st and Jack got his quick guard…and the rest is history

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Dec 16, 2009 2:45 PM PST up reply actions  

One more example

The best comparison between Pendergraph and Cunningham from Blazer history is Ramon Ramos and Mark Bryant. Both came out of Seton Hall in the late ‘80s. Ramos was well on the way to beating out Bryant in fall camp but suffered a minor injury that kept him on the injured list, until he decided to race another car on I-5 south of Wilsonville and caught a patch of black ice. Bryant went on to be a decent role player behind Buck Williams, but Ramon would’ve had the better career if he had played it safe out on the Interstate

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Dec 16, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions  

The draft order proves nothing about who will be better

It does indicate they wanted Jeff at least as much as they wanted Dante.

Which do we need more right now, a 3-4 who isn’t being played at all at the 3 or a 4-5? The answer is obvious. Even if Jeff isn’t as good as Dante (for which we have no real evidence), it has to help some to get him back. Dante was simply being overpowered by the Kings’ PFs on the boards.

#52

by jscot on Dec 17, 2009 1:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Przy for MVP!

He is the most important piece we have on the team. Without him, we are nowhere…

Let's do it for the big man!...and Rudy!....and Nic!...and, uh, Trout, Pendy, Patty, Mo, Mr. Allen, and Nate!

Rehab With Us

by clinchmobb on Dec 16, 2009 9:41 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm so happy

for Bayless. The guy has worked his butt off and finally got treated fairly. My biggest concern about the coaching is that it seems to take waaaay too long for Nate to realize the obvious. It’s as if he knows what he should do with the rotations but making any change would be admitting he was wrong. Seems like he’s been too stuborn and only until there just aren’t any more excuses left does he make a change. Then he fabricates some explanation as to why he changed the lineup to save face. Oh well, I’ll stop complaining.

Pryzbilla deserved a max contract deal last night. Where would we be without him?

Webster? Does he even belong in the NBA? I keep seeing team after team with no-name players continue to burn us by hitting shots and rebounding. Tired of some of our “role” players under acheiving. Oh well, I’ll stop complaining now…

by Flapbreaker on Dec 16, 2009 6:32 AM PST reply actions  

Marty had 9 pts and 4 reb in 23 minutes against one TO

I thought his defense was ok too. Overall not a horrible game imo…

Blazer Fan

by leeroyjenkins on Dec 16, 2009 6:40 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree with both of you that Joel is money

It’s a shame SI hasn’t done one of their unsung hero stories on him yet

Blazer Fan

by leeroyjenkins on Dec 16, 2009 6:49 AM PST up reply actions  

And

he had that nice, crowd-pleasing dunk!

by jigglyai on Dec 16, 2009 7:36 AM PST up reply actions  

yeah

That was a nice dunk by Webster. – Elgin

Travis Outlaw, the Funnel Cake of the Blazers

by 22baylor on Dec 16, 2009 2:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Far cry from summer league

Bayless right now is a case in point about how not to overreact to stuff like summer ball. It seems like only yesterday I wandered through the land of Blazers and came across people wringing their hands over how he’d supposedly regressed.

"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."

by feral on Dec 16, 2009 1:40 PM PST up reply actions  

wringing our hands

Apparently that’s what we do. – Elgin

Travis Outlaw, the Funnel Cake of the Blazers

by 22baylor on Dec 16, 2009 2:11 PM PST up reply actions  

I can't complain about Webster

Something needs to happen to make him a bigger part of what’s going on around him. I’m not sure what that will be but I hope they all figure it out soon. I’d rather see him in there playing 3, rather than Roy – but at the moment, we have more smaller players than we need and not as many 3s, 4s, and 5s as we need. – Elgin

Travis Outlaw, the Funnel Cake of the Blazers

by 22baylor on Dec 16, 2009 2:10 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm usually the negative one, but I thought the Blazers played pretty well all things considered

The Kings played great, I don’t see any shame in ‘only’ beating them by seven. When pretty much every player contributes to a victory…where’s the gripes?

Yeah sure there were some minor things but c’mon. That was a solid win.

Blazer Fan

by leeroyjenkins on Dec 16, 2009 6:38 AM PST reply actions  

I was certaintly singing your song in the first half.

I was so happy to see they came out in the second half and played with some intensity.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Dec 16, 2009 6:41 AM PST up reply actions  

If you don't fill your role, someone has to step up to fill it

Looks like I need to complain about Miller in this thread too.

by tominhawaii on Dec 16, 2009 7:09 AM PST up reply actions  

Why?

He started and once again we won. He starts both halves and we start out better than we have all year in both halves. He starts and we see the starting unit flow and play as a team better than we have in a long while. But there’s no connection right? I guess because he didn’t shoot well, he had nothing to do with the win. Right. I don’t think it could be any more obvious that we are a better team with Miller starting, but maybe we’d have to go 20-2 with him as a starter before that was believed.

by Coastie07 on Dec 16, 2009 8:15 AM PST up reply actions  

He had the worst +/- out of the starters and his stats were worse than Blakes

Clank ,clank, clank went Miller’s shot
Buzz, buzz, buzz went the shot clock
Lame, lame, lame went my heartstrings as we started Andre Miller

I do not like Andre Miller
I do not like him off the bench, I do not like him as a starter
I do not like him here or there, I do not like Miller anywhere (except on another roster)

by tominhawaii on Dec 16, 2009 9:09 AM PST up reply actions  

like somebody said before

Miller doesn’t function as a “give the ball to roy and leak to the corner” type of player. yet we continually see this happen. of course his game isn’t going to flourish. i love watching the ‘fastbreak’ with him leading it. He’s out in front with Martell a step behind him on the wing and everyone else sorta mozys up. Then he has to pull it back and let the dribble-fest take hold.

by pdxlifer on Dec 16, 2009 9:40 AM PST up reply actions  

I am still convinced that Nate's thinking on the Andre signing ...

… envisioned Andre as the veteran leader of a young 2nd unit. He seems to be a great fit in a lineup of Miller / Rudy / Batum (or Webster) / Travis and Oden. That would have literally given Nate two NBA starting caliber lineups.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Dec 16, 2009 9:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Idiot move by Nate.

Players don’t just settle for the second unit after working their way up to one of the top 15 PG’s in the league.

by thetsaiguy on Dec 16, 2009 12:31 PM PST up reply actions  

unless

the veteran PG was playing for…the L*kers

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Dec 16, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Players do what it takes to make their team better.

Let us also remember that there was not much of a market for Miller. His only other real option was signing a 1 year deal with the Sixers.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Dec 16, 2009 1:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Some players age gracefully, some don't.

It’s not like he passed up more lucrative offers from other teams just so he could play with the Blazers. Yeah, I really do believe at least some of the midseason hype about him wanting to come to Portland specifically, but I also believe that we had the longest, most lucrative offer out there for him too.

I don’t want to be seen as one of those fans who has been just dumping on Miller, because I have a lot of respect for him and he’s earned his reputation and has a right to be proud. But being prideful and being proud are not the same, and at this point in his career, I think he should have been more open to the idea of taking on a new role. In this sense, I think he could learn a lot from Juwan.

But really, that’s a moot point. Blake has lost his grip on the starting position, and I do think Miller taking his place is what is best for the team now, which is too bad. I think Nate’s vision for the team was a good one conceptually. Just like the Kung Fu movies:

“Your half-court crane style cannot defeat me!”

“Aha, but I know full-court Tiger as well! Heee-yahh!”

by conspirator5 on Dec 16, 2009 6:50 PM PST up reply actions  

actually

Miller had Webster open on the wing and open a couple of times but didn’t give it up. Miller’s decision making has been very inconsistent. Some brilliant plays; some truly mystifyingly stupid plays.

by blacknoiseNW on Dec 16, 2009 11:07 AM PST up reply actions  

With the way Webster has been shooting — not passing it to him is the smart move.

by SomeNerve on Dec 16, 2009 11:15 AM PST up reply actions  

Have you tried him in the sun?

Have you tried him on the run?
Have you tried him in the air?
Have you tried him ANYWHERE?

#52

by jscot on Dec 16, 2009 10:34 AM PST up reply actions  

He does not like him

that Tom -I -ham

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Dec 16, 2009 11:54 AM PST up reply actions  

With the frontcourt problems we are having,

and after watching Andre be thrown into our lineup, Im really wishing we would have been able to sign Millsap after all.

by Bicycle Rider on Dec 16, 2009 10:36 AM PST up reply actions  

And yet we won with him starting once again.

Funny how that works. His missed shots were from passes to him forcing him to take outside shots, absolutely not his game. He also managed our starting unit better than we’ve seen all year, but I guess how well the others played with Miller starting had nothing to do with his game. I mean how a team flows, moves, distributes, and plays has nothing to do with the point guard, right? Do you like Chauncey Billups? Because he thinks Miller is the most underrated point guard in the league.

by Coastie07 on Dec 16, 2009 10:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Appeal to authority?

Appeals to authority are logical crutches – and not good ones. Billups is a pro basketball player – and a good one – but that doesn’t make him an authority that trumps my own opinion.

Do you like Chauncey Billups? Because he thinks Miller is the most underrated point guard in the league.

If Billups truly believes that, then any opinion I had of Billups would have to go down. Cause and effect.

by blacknoiseNW on Dec 16, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

My point was that the Billups reference didn't help your argument

I happen to disagree that Miller was responsible for improved play last night (there were extended stretches where he was on the court and the Blazers were terrible).

However, my opinion vs. your opinion on that matter is simply opinion. Invoking Billups doesn’t help the rest of your argument at all (and I thought the rest of it was nicely done – shoulda said that the first time).

by blacknoiseNW on Dec 16, 2009 2:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Not an appeal to authority

but citing an expert witness as a supporting argument.

Most reasonable people would consider Billups’ opinion to carry more weight than yours. In fact, most reasonable people would consider his opinion to carry more weight than their own, and finding themselves on a different side on the question would cause them to seriously reconsider.

And hardly anyone would lower their opinion of a person just because of a difference of opinion over which PG is most underrated.

#52

by jscot on Dec 16, 2009 1:18 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

Miller being terrible is hardly a subjective opinion

and Billup’s opinion to the contrary (if true) carries absolutely no weight with me and shouldn’t with anyone else.

Definition of appeal to authority:

Source A says that p.
Source A is authoritative.
Therefore, p is true.

The argument for Miller is better without trying to bolster it with questionable opinions from ostensible “authorities”

by blacknoiseNW on Dec 16, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Definitions of "appeal to authority"

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

Description of Appeal to Authority
An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
Person A makes claim C about subject S.
Therefore, C is true.
This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious.

This sort of reasoning is fallacious when the person in question is not an expert. In such cases the reasoning is flawed because the fact that an unqualified person makes a claim does not provide any justification for the claim. The claim could be true, but the fact that an unqualified person made the claim does not provide any rational reason to accept the claim as true.

If you wish to claim Billups is not an expert on what makes a good PG, then you can claim this was an appeal to authority.

Or we can look at wikipedia, which I believe has a better treatment:

Argument from authority or appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, where it is argued that a statement is correct because the statement is made by a person or source that is commonly regarded as authoritative. The most general structure of this argument is:

Source A says that p.
Source A is authoritative.
Therefore, p is true.

This is a fallacy because the truth or falsity of the claim is not necessarily related to the personal qualities of the claimant, and because the premises can be true, and the conclusion false (an authoritative claim can turn out to be false). It is also known as argumentum ad verecundiam (Latin: argument to respect) or ipse dixit (Latin: he himself said it). 1

On the other hand, arguments from authority are an important part of informal logic. Since we cannot have expert knowledge of many subjects, we often rely on the judgments of those who do. There is no fallacy involved in simply arguing that the assertion made by an authority is true. The fallacy only arises when it is claimed or implied that the authority is infallible in principle and can hence be exempted from criticism.
No one claimed or implied Billups is infallible or exempt from criticism.

Finally, this. “Miller being terrible is hardly a subjective opinion”. It most certainly is subjective. Other basketball observers have said he’s in the top ten PGs of the past decade. To just declaim “terrible” is entirely subjective. There are things he does well, and there are things he doesn’t do well.

#52

by jscot on Dec 17, 2009 1:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Stupid block quote formatting

Everything from the start down to the stuff in bold is from wikipedia.

#52

by jscot on Dec 17, 2009 1:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Does Billups form opinions based on quantitative data?

If not, my opinion as an analyst would be much more informed – and therefore superior in quality. Player opinions usually fall into the category of results-based analysis colored by how one performs against the subject. There is some merit to this approach – but it is only a very small part of the player evaluation picture.

Frankly, player opinions are probably the least reliable guage of another player’s ability available to us.

by blacknoiseNW on Dec 16, 2009 2:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Now this is better

Now you are questioning the expertise of the player, which is entirely valid.

#52

by jscot on Dec 17, 2009 1:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Ballers are like stocks...

“Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.”

When Billups, or ANYBODY, speaks of Miller’s skill, talent, or desire, they are speaking of the Miller they have seen, not the Miller they are seeing (if they’re bothering to look), nor the Miller that will be.

Miller’s on the downslope of his roller coaster ride. No offense to him. Happens to all of us. He’s still very good. I’ll STILL take him over Sergio on our team, in our system. That being said, if he’s not as good with us as he was with Philly, it could be as much from being a season older as it is chemistry or anything else.

by conspirator5 on Dec 16, 2009 6:54 PM PST up reply actions  

I thought Miller was pretty meh last night, his shot was even flatter than usual

and he didn’t make up for it with the other things

still him starting got the team the cushion they needed to win the game

Blazer Fan

by leeroyjenkins on Dec 16, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Haha, well I'd love to see you get your wish.

Coming off the bench to add energy is a lot different than starting and having the responsibility of setting the whole offense up for the rest of the game. Completely different ballgame.

by Coastie07 on Dec 16, 2009 12:22 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree

Bayless was used the way he should have been last night. If you wanted to up his minutes to 30-33 mpg, you could, but he still (at this point in his development) is best used as the energy guy off the bench. Let them get a little tired, sucking air a little, and then bam, here comes Mr. Intensity.

#52

by jscot on Dec 16, 2009 1:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Spot on with the Tyreke Evans comments.

I kept thinking during the game that this guy may end up to be the best pick from the draft. I liked how under control he looked.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Dec 16, 2009 6:43 AM PST reply actions  

8 for 9 shooting or whatever he was is pretty good

If he ever gets a jumper watch out

the Kings have a couple of nice young players

Blazer Fan

by leeroyjenkins on Dec 16, 2009 6:50 AM PST up reply actions  

Bayless, Bayless, Bayless, Bayless, Bayless! So great for him. Fun to see.

by Vic De Zen on Dec 16, 2009 7:12 AM PST reply actions  

The scoreboard said "All The Way Turn't Up" by Travis Parker.

I wasn’t sure who Travis Parker was. Apparently it’s nobody.

"Ain't nothin' in this world for free."

by Arby on Dec 16, 2009 7:57 AM PST reply actions  

Funny

u’d never know roy had such a good game reading the live game thread. As for evans it will be interesting what happens when martin comes back. The guy was shooting the ball like 26 times a game.

by BBG on Dec 16, 2009 9:41 AM PST reply actions  

They do have complimentary styles, so I can see it working.

Tyreke can’t shoot the ball for beans and that’s all that Martin does. Tyreke was able to make us look bad and he only took 9 shots. That bodes well for him.

"Ain't nothin' in this world for free."

by Arby on Dec 16, 2009 9:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Oversimplifying it a little there

both of their guys tend to generate shots with the ball in their hands, not dissimilar to Roy and Andre. People seem to get the impression that because Martin puts up high shooting percentages that he’s like some version of Ray Allen, but most of his extraordinary efficiency comes from his ability to draw fouls and get to the line. Witness the last two years when his eFG% was hovering around 50% (okay, but below a guy like LeBron), but his TS% was awesome (over 60%). If it were due to his great spot up shooting, there’d be less of a discrepancy, but the huge discrepancy comes from getting to the line 10 times a game and converting at a 90% clip.

Besides, K-Mart’s time in Sacto hasn’t exactly coincided with a set of ball-dominant PGs. Martin was playing extremely well before he got hurt, but Evans was mediocre at best. It’s only been without Martin in the lineup that he’s really been able to shine so far.

#52

by Royster on Dec 16, 2009 10:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Overstating it a little there

With an overwhelming amount of cherry picking. Lebron might have a higher eFG%. But Over his career, Martin’s eFG% is better than Roy’s and D.Wade. I’m not cherry picking small sample sizes or the best player in the league to make my point. To call that “okay”, and then compare it to Lebron is absurd.

Martin averaged over 20 points playing 3rd fiddle with Mike Bibby and Ron Artest. He had an eFG% of 53.3 that year.

Bé foréwarnéd: I am a mémbér of StR Groupthink méntality.

by CAB on Dec 16, 2009 10:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Fair enough, a little exaggeration

But K-Mart defining K-Mart as a spot up shooter just isn’t right. But looking at a list of guys in the 3-point era who have had TS%‘s over 60 and eFG% under 54 (the most K-Mart’s ever been), you don’t exactly pull up a list of spot up shooters. Most of those guys are ball-dominant players (mainly PGs, actually), and it’s been 3 years since the gap in his eFG% and TS% was less than 10 points, which is massive.

Small sample size, but his TS% this year is also below .600 for the first time since his rookie year (although his overall efficiency is way up thanks to cutting his TOs in half). Although, to be honest, my favorite weird statistical aberration of K-Mart’s first 5 games is that he’s shooting substantially worse on twos than he is on threes.

I admit, I can’t say I’ve religiously watched Kings games over the past couple years, but when I have, my impression has been that he’s drawing most of these fouls with the ball in his hands, not running off a ton of screens.

But regardless, I’m not sure he’d be the issue so much as ‘Reke. Seems like the Kings came into the year with a similar game plan of emphasizing K-Mart (shots are way up), and Evans didn’t have much success, and then once Tyreke got to be the centerpiece of the offense, he exploded. Martin is so efficient that he needs to be made the centerpiece of the offense, so I think it’s more a matter of whether Evans can keep up the production in a complementary role.

I didn’t mean it as a bad thing, these are the good problems to have. The comparison to Roy and Miller may have been confusing, but I’m firmly entrenched in the camp that they can play together long-term, it’s just not as simple as saying, well, let’s just have Roy spot up off Miller, just like I don’t think Sacto’s situation isn’t as simple as saying,“well, let’s just have Martin open up the floor for Evans”.

#52

by Royster on Dec 16, 2009 11:06 AM PST up reply actions  

Also

Roy and DWade haven’t exactly shown themselves to be good outside shooters (especially Wade), I picked LeBron because he’s generally considered a terrible outside shooter, I’m admittedly too lazy to go look up eFG% on jumpers from 82games.com which would be form a better comparison, so admittedly, there’s a decent chance I’m 100% wrong here.

#52

by Royster on Dec 16, 2009 11:19 AM PST up reply actions  

not 100% wrong, not 100% right

Roy has traditionally scored more off the jumper than in the paint. This year he is at 45% eFG% on his jumpers, which are 78% of his shots.

Compare that to his great 2008/2009 season, in which 66% of his shots were outside, making 46.5% eFG%.

Lebron 2009/2010: 44% eFG% on jump shots
Wade 2009/2010: 36% eFG% on jump shots

by blacknoiseNW on Dec 16, 2009 3:11 PM PST up reply actions  

All guards take more jumpers than inside shots

66% is right next to the extreme low end, actually. Ellis, Parker, Westbrook, Manu (in his prime) have all been around 60% off the top of my head. While I can’t say I’ve gone through and established a cutoff point as to who would be considered primarily a shooter or primarily a slasher, my general impression has been that anything south of 70% is indicative of a guy whose primary strength is putting it on the floor.

Roy’s been a solid mid range shooter and a slightly underrated outside shooter, but I think of him as a lot closer to a Wade-type whose primary focus is getting to the rim, than someone like Ray Allen, who can get to the rim, but whose main strength is his jump shot.

#52

by Royster on Dec 16, 2009 3:45 PM PST up reply actions  

I would suggest that drawing any conclusion about Evans & Martin come after Martin returns (whenever that happens in January most likely)

Because, quite frankly, Kevin Martin and Tyreke Evans have the potential to frighten every coach and every backcourt in this league for the next 5-7 years.

Until they fail for a half-season together, your conclusion, at best, is remarkably incomplete.

No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea

by pookeyguru on Dec 16, 2009 3:02 PM PST up reply actions  

I wasn't trying to make a conclusion

other than to characterize shooting as “all that Martin does”. He’s certainly a great shooter, but what I think separates him as an offensive freak is his ability to get to the line and shoot FTs at an unconscionable rate.

Tons of guys shoot as well or better than him, but in the last three years, only 2 guards have gotten to the line more than 9 times per 36 minutes: Wade twice and Martin twice, and Maggette is the only other guy amongst all positions to average more than 8 FT makes a game.

I completely agree that they could potentially be a ridiculously frightening backcourt pairing for the next half decade, though.

#52

by Royster on Dec 16, 2009 3:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Dang it

*other than to characterize shooting as “all that Martin does” is a fallacy.

#52

by Royster on Dec 16, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Has anyone noticed?

Sometimes in the Blazers’ offense they’ll pass the ball around 4 to 5 times and guys still aren’t open. They just keep swinging it around the perimeter. I don’t know enough about basketball to know why this is. Could it be because of lack of movement without the ball? No ones cutting and then kicking it out? Too much standing on the perimeter? It just seems like when other teams pass that much and are unselfish they eventually find an open man.

by pedalhome on Dec 16, 2009 10:19 AM PST reply actions  

I think it is a symptom of the offensive style, rather than personal choice

Players in the Portland offense often stand around because they are waiting for someone with the ball to make a move.

If the play is to feed an iso post or set up a strong side pick and roll, then the weakside is supposed to spread the floor and wait for the ball if there is a double team and kickout.

If the defense takes away the first option, it often looks like the Portland players are “just standing around” because they weren’t supposed to go anywhere near the paint or the play and clog things up.

by blacknoiseNW on Dec 16, 2009 11:15 AM PST up reply actions  

To know that

we’d have to sit in on practices. I know Nate yells at people to move sometimes. So whether it’s offensive style or player inaction is not entirely certain.

What is certain is it is the coach’s responsibility to find a solution.

#52

by jscot on Dec 16, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions  

based on Nate's comments, he would agree that he intends for the pace to be faster with less standing around

He is on the record saying that he wants the guards to push the ball up much quicker, and you can see this during the game.

One thing in Nate’s favor is that the Blazers seem to be getting better and running the pick and roll, lately. I’ve hacked on McMillan quite a bit for the Blazers’ relative ineptitude with this bread and butter play (lots of dribble penetration, pull up jumpers and kick outs for 3’s – very little off-the-ball roll to the hoop being rewarded).

by blacknoiseNW on Dec 16, 2009 3:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Nate's been saying that for the past 3 years

it’s going to take more than one slightly more uptempo game (which was still pretty darn slow at 85 possessions) to convince me that we’re actually going to speed it up.

#52

by Royster on Dec 16, 2009 3:15 PM PST up reply actions  

offensive system

I think it is the system that encourages that. They always run to their spots and stop. When they catch a pass they stop. When other team’s players catch the ball, they catch it in motion and either shoot it or pass it or dribble right away. The blazers always stop and think about what to do next and the defense always has a chance to catch up. I think they are following the system. Monty even said that he was proud of the way the players stuck with the system when Nate was out. As far as passing four or five times to guys who aren’t open, that’s true, but they also pass further and further away from the basket. One kickout for a shot is ok, but two or three passes that move in the wrong direction? That’s why they always have to put up the long ball under shot clock duress.

by davebball on Dec 16, 2009 9:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Good and bad

There was some nice hustle and effort at times- both Roy and Joel wound up on the floor going after loose balls. That was nice to see. At times, specifically near the end of the game, Roy bodied up on Evans and played some good defense. But, for most of the 3rd quarter and first part of the 4th, he continued to show a total lack of interest or effort on the defensive end. He would slump off his man and, if he put up a jumper, take a half step towards him instead of at least running over and getting a hand in his face. Or, if his guy decided to drive the lane, Roy would usually just sort of turn sideways and keep his hands up at shoulder level. I guess he was trying to stay out of foul trouble, but he has to at least make some lateral movement and try to redirect his man away from the rim and towards some defensive help.

I’m not expecting him to be a first team defensive player; honestly, I don’t think he has the talent for that. But he needs to show the effort on every posession. I love Roy and he is clearly the identity of the team. unfortunately, that identity is not one of consistent effort every minute he is in the game. It’s a poor analogy, but it almost reminds me of the way Randy Moss will take plays off if they aren’t called for him. For better or worse (and it’s much much more of the former than the latter), Brandon will be the heart of this team for the next several years. He needs to accept that mantle as a challenge and not just a coronation. He needs to lead by example. He needs to work on his deficiencies in the off-season and focus on improving his handle on the ball, his off-ball movement (he still can’t use a pick) and his defensive footwork.

He is Mr. Blazer and i think he’s a great guy for that title. Every other player is going to have to listen to him and play his style of ball. Like any team’s superstar, he can get a coach fired if he wants or another player traded away. I think he has the talent and character to do a good job for us. But, as a wise man once stated, with great power comes great responsibility.

by random_rider on Dec 16, 2009 12:12 PM PST reply actions  

I'm watching the game and trying to focus just on mistakes and missed shots by Bayless and Miller

The only difference between Miller and Blake after an inbounds pass is that Miller immediately sprints to the other side of the court then pulls up around the top of the key and Blake lets the ball roll as far as he can to preserve shot clock. Miller’s crappy game is being overshadowed by what Bayless did in the last 6 minutes of the game.

Miller is riding Joel’s coattail. If he was doing that junk with Howard, the Blazers would have lost by 12.

by tominhawaii on Dec 16, 2009 1:36 PM PST reply actions  

great report Ben

> Forget about the rumored trade demand. Jerryd Bayless is demanding burn.

Ain’t he is. Good showing last night. I’d like to see what he does without having any other “point guards” on the floor besides Roy.

> The pleasant surprise was Bayless, who torpedoed to the hoop time and again down the stretch on his way to 14 points, including 8 of 10 from the free throw line.

Give him some burn. Ride that torpedo like Slim Whitman at the end of Dr. Strangelove.

> The team’s improved energy started before Bayless ever took the court. The Blazers had one of their best starts in recent memory, putting up 17 points in the game’s first six minutes, whipping the ball around the perimeter and moving off the ball like we’ve rarely seen this season. It also happened to be Andre Miller’s first start. Not a coincidence.

They were indeed amazingly effective for the first half of the first quarter. I wonder what stopped them after that?

> Dante Cunningham found himself playing only spot duty — as has been the case recently — due to the coaching staff’s reluctance to match him against bigger, full-sized power forwards.

What is up with this? There are only nine guys that can play right now. Why wouldn’t he be getting more burn, just by default?

> If Martell Webster isn’t hitting shots, sit him. If Andre Miller isn’t hitting shots, sit him. If Jerryd Bayless is rolling, play him.

I’d like to see Martell prove his worth on the court in all ways, not just with shooting. He’s shown moments of good defense and shot blocking already. I think he could be an effective rebounder and all-around scorer. I’d like to see him get the ball more often. Last night in crunch time, they really seeked out Bayless and got him the ball in areas where he could be effective. I’d like to see them do that with Martell too.

> Kings rookie guard Tyreke Evans was, as they say, all that.

He is going to be a remarkable player. That is a high draft choice that is going to pan out nicely for the Kings.

> Sergio Rodriguez: 0 for 3. 2 points, 2 assists, 2 turnovers in 8 minutes. So that’s why Kevin Pritchard paid the Sacramento Kings to accept you in a trade. An unfortunate return home for Rodriguez, who has enjoyed some success this season.

Udrih may be forcing them to choose Udrih over Sergio. Sergio seems good enough to play in the league, somewhere – I wonder where?

> We have to play almost flawless ball and we’ve got to outscrap you, outhustle you, outwork you.

That’s what it is right now. They have three guys who play 1 and 6 guys for the other 4 positions. This is not a well-balanced roster right now. Will they make a trade to give the bigger guys some help? or for another small forward so Roy doesn’t have to guard Gerald Wallace and people like him.

> Playing Bayless, Blake and Roy down the stretch?

How about Bayless, Miller, and Roy? Or better yet, Bayless, Rudy, and Roy (when Rudy comes back)?

So many things to think about to try to do to avoid what seems to be an inevitable losing streak beginning right now.

Thanks again Ben! – Elgin

Travis Outlaw, the Funnel Cake of the Blazers

by 22baylor on Dec 16, 2009 2:05 PM PST reply actions  

Something not noted. Bayless on Evans

It was good to see Miller starting. He did a good job with the offense but Evans continually burned him on defense.
Yes Roy played Evans some on D but Bayless often did a good job also by fronting Evans and being physical with him. That game was lucky to be at home as the Blazers probably could not have been as physical on the road. This will continue to be a problem with the lightened roster. The tolerance for fouls is small before it eats into the effectiveness of the defense, mainly Joel, boy does he make a difference and we have no good backup with Greg out.
Love this site!

by behindpaul on Dec 16, 2009 2:17 PM PST reply actions  

Another positive sign

Bayless had a bad turnover where he threw a horrible cross court pass bringing the ball up-court. He right away looked over to the bench like he expected Nate to immediately pull him. To the credit of both of them, Nate left him in the game and Bayless continued to play aggressively rather than overly-cautiously in order to avoid another turnover. I think that bodes well for the both of them.

My big fear right now is that Bayless is getting these minutes and a longer leash in order to showcase him for a trade. Hopefully that’s just my usual cynicism and paranoia talking.

by random_rider on Dec 16, 2009 2:33 PM PST reply actions  

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