How to consolidate?
by darkhelmit54 on Nov 9, 2009 3:43 PM PST
36 comments
I think nearly everyone agrees that Rudy and Martell really need to be rotation players, and that Bayless has looked somewhat deserving of some burn the last couple of games. An obvious partial solution is to not play Blake heavy minutes, and I'm really hoping this is just a transition move as there's no way Blake's guarding real SG's on a regular basis and Rudy or Webster could contribute so much more in that role...
However, how could we go about consolidation? If we were looking to trade who would we send out and what would we target coming back?
I really think we could use another vet on a shorter contract while Rudy, Martell, and Batum come into their own, and I'm of the opinion that it would be nice to come at the 3/4 combo position so that there's more minutes for the guards that are left (Rudy, Roy, Miller). But who really makes sense/is available?
I think in a deal the guys to send out would be a combo of Blake/Outlaw as a better rebounding/defending 3/4 could really help us out over Outlaw's inconsistencies and perpetual leaving of the C on an island when he's in (leading to foul trouble, no second chance points, and bad post defense with open lanes). Losing Blake would hurt short term, and I'd want to bring in a decent shooter and passer at 3/4, but I think in the end it'd be fine with Miller, Roy, Rudy, and Bayless getting a little burn.
My first choice would've been Tayshaun Prince before the back incident, does anybody know how severe his injury is, will he be his old self again, and what the prognosis is?
Now I'm wondering what you guys would think of Boris Diaw? He's a 3/4 who has length, semi-decent athleticism, extremely high IQ, and good concept of team defense and can play 3/4 and run. I think on paper it'd be a good fit, but his contract does have two more years at 9 million per on it, so I'm not sure it'd be worth that.
Any other ideas?
(w/Blake-Outlaw for Diaw)
Miller/Bayless
Roy/Rudy
Webster/Diaw
Aldridge/Diaw
Oden/Pryzbilla
that seems like a very high IQ and good team defense 9 man rotation to me with lots of balance...and a high payroll.
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Consolidation is great.
Until injuries happen. And in the NBA injuries happen. (see: Batum, Nicolas)
πάτερ, ἄφες αὐτοῖς, οὐ γὰρ οἴδασιν τί ποιοῦσιν.
by T Darkstar on Nov 9, 2009 3:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Can we maybe take the most recent 20 or 30 consolidation posts and combine them?
by raoulduke on Nov 9, 2009 3:51 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
Consolidating the consolidation.
I like it!
"I don't always read blogs regarding the Trail Blazers
...but when I do... I read Blazers Edge."
- resurrect_ha28
by FiveOhThree-RipCity!! on Nov 9, 2009 3:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course we may reget it if one of the posts goes down with typographical erros and is lost for the season.
by raoulduke on Nov 9, 2009 3:59 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Typographical errors rarely wipe out a season
It is logical fallacies that can end a post’s usefulness forever.
"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5
by jscot on Nov 9, 2009 11:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Now there is a fantastic idea.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Nov 10, 2009 4:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Or as a second option ...
… we designate Tom as the offical consolidation poster. No posts concerning consolidation except from him.
If you have ideas on the topic, you simply email Tom and he decides if they are worthy of posting.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Nov 10, 2009 4:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"And in the end
The love you take
Is equal to the love you make." -The Beatles
by 92wastheyear on Nov 9, 2009 4:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
To get Diaw
we would likely need to trade more than just Blake and Outlaw. Charlotte isn’t giving him up easily, especially without securing someone who can play the 4. The only possible scenario I can see where we end up with Diaw is if we interject ourselves as a third team in a deal with Golden State and Charlotte for Stephen Jackson. And to get Diaw out of that deal, we’d likely have to give up Blake, Outlaw, Bayless, and maybe some other asset (a pick or Pendergraph/Claver/Cunningham). If we could get Diaw and a PG in return (say, DJ Augustin), that might be worth doing, but it would be a major shakeup.
www.blazerguy.com
by Blazer Guy on Nov 9, 2009 4:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Trading Outlaw is so last year.
I shudder to think how dead in the water this team will be some games without Outlaw to heat things up from time to time.
by raoulduke on Nov 9, 2009 4:44 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
So do you expect Travis to be resigned by Portland, next July?
If you do, that’s OK. But Chad Ford and I don’t think so
But if you don’t, are you willing to let Outlaw play out his contract and sign with another team as a UFA next July, and receive no compensation for him?
You may be content watching Trout “heating things up” for 82 games and the playoffs and then letting him walk away and take the best offer he can get during the offseason, but that’s not a risk I’m willng to sign off on
Which is why a deal for Travis is so early 2010
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Nov 9, 2009 7:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Am I content? How is that relevant to anything? What I want or don't want
doesn’t mean jack to Kevin Pritchard. I’m content to watch the team play basketball and let KP do his job.
by raoulduke on Nov 9, 2009 9:11 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
BOOOOOOOOOOO-
RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING….Its our duty as fans to debate things that have less than a 1% chance of happening but are stilll probable nonetheles.
by kajuayn on Nov 10, 2009 11:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You know Portland needs less rain. I'm going to give it till January and if things haven't
improved I’m going to start calling for changes to be made. I can only take so much.
by raoulduke on Nov 10, 2009 3:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why do we have to "get something" for Travis ...
… other than his contributing good play for the Blazers this season?
It’s like you get one of those entertainment books and feel like you have to go to a place you’d likely not bother with just to get the buy one – get one free deal. The primary value of any player on the team is how they contribute with their play. Everything else is secondary. If it so happens that KP gets an offer that he believes will benefit the team, then fine, he can trade Outlaw. But there is no good reason he should be actively seeking to trade him just because the’s a FA at the end of the season.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Nov 10, 2009 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Diaw for Outlaw plus????
Diaw was 12.3pts. & 6.0reb last year…. Travis 12.8pts & 4.1reb… If Charlotte thinks he’s worth Blake, Outlaw, Bayless and somebody else they can keep him. Talk about over-valuing your talent!..
Diaw is a nice player that has some good things to offer but if we were to “consolidate”… especially if it involved Outlaw, Blake and ????… it would have to be to get an impact type player. I don’t think Diaw is that guy.
The truth is that I’m not a consolidate fan in the first place though… I don’t buy into the too much talent thing…
by Ilikeemall on Nov 9, 2009 5:13 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
yeah, but...
Diaw has a salary of 9 million. To make any trade work, you’ve got to include at least 8 million in salary (Outlaw only makes 3.6 million). Also, Outlaw has an expiring contract meaning any team we trade him to only gets his guaranteed services for the rest of this season. If the team is looking for talent (as opposed to cap space), that makes him worth much less than a guy who is signed past this year. Also, objectively, Diaw is MUCH better than Outlaw. Diaw is an unselfish player with incredibly good passing skills for a big man. He could score a lot more if he looked more for his own shot.
I’m not sure Diaw is worth what we’d have to give up to get him. But he’s a very good player.
www.blazerguy.com
by Blazer Guy on Nov 9, 2009 8:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Diaw for Outlaw and Blake works...
Diaw, at $9 M, was one of the guys I thought of when we signed Mills. Because the combination of Blake’s $4M, Trout’s 3.6M, and the 1.4M under the cap is exactly 9 Mil. Now, this only works if Charlotte thinks by letting Blake and Trout go they can land a huge stud…
One of the unfortunate parts about Travis playing so well early is it makes him tougher to deal. Not only are we less likely, but a team that just wants the cap space doesn’t really want a guy that might come in, light it up, and force you to keep him… Crazy…
by Visionary2 on Nov 9, 2009 9:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Nick Collison
Trade some talent for production.
The roster would be balanced, roles would be defined and all would be right with the world.
The end.
"What happened to Bayless anyway? Did he turn into a pumpkin? Most teams don’t just let #11 picks rot." - Xiane
by MadBlaze on Nov 9, 2009 6:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
gotta get to 6.25 mil
that’s what Nick is making, Travis’ salary plus the capspace only gets you to around 5 mil
add Blake and you’re up over 8 mil, so OKC would have to add another salary, and looking at their roster, there’s no one making around 2 mil that’s intriguing (and besides, Steve isn’t going anywhere, Nate and Brandon will see to that!)
You could add Bayless and his 2.143 mil (I wouldn’t, not for just Collison) but Juwan Howard and his 1.3 just might be the best choice, after Dec 15th. (It would be extemely close, though, and may not add all the way up to 6.25 mil)
I’d rather target Jeff Foster (6.1 mil) with Outlaw + Howard + capspace. Foster’s got more playoff experience than Collison and he’d be more likely to take a “supporting” role on a contending team. Indy could use more athleticism at their forward position, so they might be interested in Travis
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Nov 9, 2009 7:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Howard only counts as $825K against our cap even though he gets paid $1.3M.
That’s because the league picks up the difference because he is a veteran on a one-year minimum salary. So Outlaw (3.6) + Howard (0.825) + cap space ($1.425) = $5.85M. But you can toss in Mills for another 0.458 to get to $6.3M. Happy shopping.
However, we aren’t trading Outlaw now that Nic is hurt.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Nov 9, 2009 11:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
so you'd hang onto Travis through the playoffs and then let him "walk" in July?
not me, his expiring contract is potentially worth more than what he will bring to the floor from Mid-February into May (hopefully, the Blazers advance past round 1)
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Nov 10, 2009 10:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
and besides
Blake is “filling in” for Batum just fine, nowadays ;^)
I want a “real” backup PF for the post season, not a ’tweener who disappeared against Houston, last April
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Nov 10, 2009 11:10 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say I would keep him. I've said many times I would trade him, especially because he could walk this summer.
Holy cow, I’ve been saying it for a year as you well know. But it has always been a tough call whether the Blazers would trade him or not. Batum getting hurt last year and Nic getting hurt this year probably saved him again. When Nic was hurt I said that I don’t think the Blazers will trade him now. He’s playing both backup 4 and backup 3 again, and although Nate seems to have a love/hate relationship with him, he continues to look for Outlaw to hit big shots in the 4th.
So I think they will keep him now and then offer him about $5M to $6M a year to stay this summer, or possibly try to work a sign a trade if that isn’t enough. But I suspect that will be enough (Travis won’t want to leave his buddy/security blanket Roy either) and he would then have a reasonable contract that they could trade in the future depending on what they do with Martell, Batum and Rudy. Lot’s of decisions (finally) this summer when KP has to finally face the playing time/upset young player mess he is tip-toeing around now.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Nov 10, 2009 1:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not so worried about the "no Nic" factor this spring
because unlike a broken foot, there’s a good chance Batum will hit his 5 month return date from labrum surgery, or even come back a few weeks early of that estimate and be available in late March
So, even if Travis is traded in mid-February (for a backup PF, as I have been suggesting) the Blazers will only be “thin” at the SF for a month or so. And when I say “thin” that’s an extremely relevant term, because as we know they don’t have enough minutes for all the players that are currently on the roster who can play SF.
Let’s say the worst-case scenario happens. KP deals Travis then Martell gets hurt. It’s late February or early March and Nic isn’t ready, yet. The team could sign a wing player to a couple of 10 day contracts to get by until Batum comes off the DL. There’s always guys who are 6’7, 6’8 in the D league who can play a few minutes, or be practice fodder. (Heck, use Cunningham for awhile, he’ll be itching to get on the court.)
Outlaw is a luxury with a short shelf life, he’s also the last/best key to unlock the capspace puzzle and provide KP with a veteran big man who could become extremely important in case of injury or foul trouble to Joel/Greg/LMA.
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Nov 10, 2009 3:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm getting some deja vu.....
Didn’t we hash this out a couple days back?
To me Collison>Foster and either would be happy to play a backup role on a good team rather than stay in their current situations (which kinda stink – vet on a developing team can’t be much fun).
Plus Collison is a NW guy who loved Seattle – there was a hub-ub about it over the summer. Yes I’m that desperate to get him that I’ll use a rumoured controversy over summer to make my argument….
Anyway, Outlaw + Capspace + Howard is the best I can come up with atm so if that doesn’t work I’ll just leave it in the capable hands of Tom Penn. If Howards only worth 800k the Outlaw + Capspace + him only makes 5.8 million anyway so Fosters a no go too.
"What happened to Bayless anyway? Did he turn into a pumpkin? Most teams don’t just let #11 picks rot." - Xiane
by MadBlaze on Nov 10, 2009 1:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
like RFS1970 said
throw in Mills and it’s a go for either Collison or Foster…that would make the most sense to me because Patty is a defensive liability at the PG position against every NBA PG except maybe Barerra
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Nov 10, 2009 10:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Production?..
I know only 6 games this year but 3.5pts and 4.3reb per game for the Thunder isn’t the kind of production I want to give up talent for.
The guy is alot more of an “intangible” guy then a production guy… Isn’t he?
by Ilikeemall on Nov 9, 2009 6:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Sure
What I mean by production is that he can be relied upon to produce consistently – he will get you rebounds, score in the post and out to about 15 feet when the opportunity is there and play solid fundamental defense. Those intangibles – things like setting good screens, knowing some of the veteran ‘tricks’ in the post, knowing where to be on both ends etc are part of what he gives you.
If you compare that to our current backup at the 4, Mr. Outlaw, you can certainly argue that what Collison gives you is less dynamic or potentially game changing. However, I would argue that it is more valuable for this Blazer team to have a solid backup PF/C who you know will produce night in, night out than a SF/PF who is inconsistent from night to night, especially defensively.
"What happened to Bayless anyway? Did he turn into a pumpkin? Most teams don’t just let #11 picks rot." - Xiane
by MadBlaze on Nov 9, 2009 6:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If Travis keeps driving to the hoop
and drawing fouls, like he did against Minnesota, he won’t go anywhere.
"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5
by jscot on Nov 9, 2009 11:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Remember, Travis Outlaw did that against a disgustingly bad Minnesota team.
From past performance, Outlaw has already shown he is who he is—and that’s that.
Dear Paul Allen:
Fire Nate McMillan & hire Jeff Van Gundy.
Sincerely,
AK1984
by AK1984 on Nov 10, 2009 1:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hate to agree
but I agree.
People who a flitting back and forth on whether to trade him game to game are failing to see the big picture – that Outlaw is a jumpshooter who misses defensive assignments, has no handle or passing ability and will not be with the team past this offseason. Capitalising on others reading too much into individual performances by getting good value in a trade would be smart, reading too much into it ourselves would be shortsighted.
"What happened to Bayless anyway? Did he turn into a pumpkin? Most teams don’t just let #11 picks rot." - Xiane
by MadBlaze on Nov 10, 2009 1:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
right
if all Nate did was put Travis in at the end of games to make circus shots when the team is behind, then he’d have some value on a contending team
but he’s a UFA this July and wants to get paid to do more than this, and no one is expecting the Blazers to resign him at this point
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Nov 10, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Just like if Travis kept shooting as well as he did in the opener
he wouldn’t be going anywhere. Travis is many things, good and bad, but consistent isn’t one of them.
by Royster on Nov 10, 2009 5:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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