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Around SBN: Guest Blogger: Juco All-American Answers Five Questions

We need the triangle offense

As has been well-documented so far brandon is unable to coexist with a ball-dominating point guard (Dre). This has lead to the team struggling to reconcile this with a way to incorporate said point guard into the line-up and general confusion and a lack of cohesion has ensued.

We are ignoring the obvious solution here. Kobe can't play with a ball-dominating guard. MJ couldn't play with a ball-dominating point guard. Both have enjoyed an incredible amount of success because of their similar skill sets, an offense that fit them perfectly, and teammates that fit that offense perfectly.

Brandon has 2 out of three so far. He has the same skill set kobe and mj have and had, he has teammates that can fit the triangle perfectly, but he doesn't have the triangle. The triangle negates the need for a ball-dominating starting point guard. All you need are 2 atheltic, fairly skilled, long players, a good guard, a point who can shoot and who doesn't turn the ball over, and a big man who plays defense and can score a bit in a pinch.

Roy is the guard, blake is the point, batum/outlaw is the 3, aldridge is the 4, and oden is the five. This gives us a bench of dre, bayless, webster/rudy, pryzbilla, and cunningham/howard. We can sit bayless if it comes to it for either webster or rudy, and if need be we can insert a starter during bench minutes to keep our firepower up.

Dre would own the bench and would be able to push and dominate the ball to his heart's desire and Brandon would own the starting offense in the triangle.

I came up with this idea somewhat hastily so I may have missed something. Tell me what you guys think.

P.S. I am in no way an expert on the triangle. I just subbed blazers in for lakers and bulls and thought of whether or not they could do the same things with the same degrees of success. Obviously Pippen was the exception. We check out in every other respect though.

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Something needs to change...

I don’t know if adopting the Triangle would by the change that is needed. I also don’t know if constantly changing the lineups in the change needed too. I have no idea to be honest…something just needs to change.

"Is RLEC a real person" -My beloved wife

by Ireallyliketheblazers on Nov 7, 2009 1:52 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

It was sickening

to watch Roy turned into a glorified Martell Webster. Roy is not Reggie or Ray. He cannot be effective off the ball running around to get open. He is at his best putting pressure on the defense with the ball in his hands either to go to the rim or create for others. It looked like he wasnt even in the game for the first 3 quarters. Miller needs to be with the second unit period. Those guys can definitely use his skills as Bayless will never be more than a sg.

by BBG on Nov 7, 2009 1:57 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

If I were a Blazer fan

i’d rather limit the wear and tear on Roy by having him play off the ball and exert more energy on the defensive end until it’s time to take over. What’s the alternative? Hope he gloriously paces himself en route to a title?

It’s important for him to learn to manage how assertive he can be. If he can’t, burn outs and breakdowns are inevitable if not this year then the next and in the years thereafter. Not only that: it’s important to give teammates a bit more liberty on the court and allow them to contribute in their own unique ways. His teammates are going to be feel alienated, and will be hard pressed to go all out on both ends because there’s no joy in playing with a 6’7" Allan Iverson.

"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."

by ignign*kt on Nov 7, 2009 2:58 PM PST up reply actions   2 recs

actually

i think that is just the kind of game you want from Roy. He got his 24 pts. He worked harder on the defensive end. He picked his spots but generally took less pounding throwing himself at the rim.

To me, that game is the template for how Brandon should be used.

by Blazin' on Nov 7, 2009 4:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

Save his one-on-five drives for the fourth quarter, let him mop up at the line and concentrate on D, and let Andre find GO and LMA!

by Marvin100 on Nov 7, 2009 6:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Roy playing like the me-first Kobe is sickening

No offense can succeed in the long run if it runs through a 2 guard who refuses to distribute the point. LaFadeaway isn’t helping either with his 22foot jumpers.

"Its not that I can't read and write, its just that I don't like to read and write."
-Charlie

by ninjasocks on Nov 7, 2009 4:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, scoring 24 points on 60% shooting

was pretty ineffective and sickening to watch.

by Royster on Nov 7, 2009 5:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It looked like he wasnt even in the game for the first 3 quarters.

I enjoyed watching Brandon curl off a screen, catch a pass (from Miller) in rhythm and drive from the wing to the rim unimpeded for a layin. One of the benefits of signing Andre is that he’s made it easier for his teammates to score, pretty much everywhere he’s been (Andre Iguodala tweeted about this, after Dre signed with Portland, last July) Roy will get easier looks at the basket the more he and Miller are on the court, together. The “two players who need the ball in their hands can’t be successful if they’re on the court together” is an urban legend. It will take time, but the fans who think Roy can only be effective when he’s running an ISO will eventually see how Brandon and Andre can coexist just fine.

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Nov 7, 2009 8:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

LAL fan, here.

1) Roy has the skills to be a focal point of the triangle.
2) Blazers seem to struggle making post-entry passes. Until players (like Blake and Batum) can do this consistently, the Triangle can’t be properly initiated. However, Blake and Batum can space the floor, and that’s pretty much a pre-requisite for an effective offense.
3) Aldridge is a good but not great fit. In the triangle, the 4 man plays on the weakside, and you just have to think of the open mid-range looks guys like Horace Grant and Bob Horry have gotten to see how that well that would suit Aldridge. An example of a great fit is Pau Gasol, who can post up, cut, and hit cutters in addition to hitting from mid-range. If I were Kupchak, and were offered Aldridge for Odom, I’d probably stick with Odom. It’s not that I think he’s superior to Aldridge, but because he and Gasol have great chemistry. Gasol enhances his abilities to pass and cut, two skills that are very important in the triangle.
4) Bynum’s game is very polished now. He has poise and confidence whethere he’s on the low block, the mid post, or the high post because he can play with his back to the basket or face up. This is important because the triangle begins with a pass into those zones. He’s still not at Gasol’s level when it comes to court awareness and reading defenses, but he’s good enough to merit some attention from help defenders and make the easier passes; he can’t hit cutters like Gasol, though. Oden needs a broader offensive repetoire and to improve his poise, confidence, and court awareness to be truly effective in the triangle.

"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."

by ignign*kt on Nov 7, 2009 2:44 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The triangle makes a lot of use of midrange jumpers. I think LMA is an excellent fit for it. The other guy is Dante Cunningham... Miller, too, but probably not at the same time as Roy...

But realistically, there’s not going to be a triangle attack in Portland so long as McMillan is coach. He’s got his own way to approach things — old school, Point Guard-driven, pick and popping, perimeter 3 pitching…………

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Nov 7, 2009 3:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

the triangle is an organic approach to play development

Theoretically, the Blazers should be able to use their favorite plays.

But you’re right, I think. It takes a different kind of coach to employ the triangle. Those coaches are at one end of the spectrum. At the other end are controlling coaches(Larry Brown? Skiles?) who have to call every play. Somewhere in the middle are guys like Sloan and d’Antoni, who employ strict systems but delegate decision-making authority to players like D-Will and Nash.

Encouragingly, though, he did allow for Miller to call his own sets in yesterday’s game. Was that atypical?

"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."

by ignign*kt on Nov 7, 2009 3:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

he did allow for Miller to call his own sets in yesterday’s game. Was that atypical?

We don’t know. Nate has never had a veteran PG like Dre on his roster to run the offense, not in PDX or when he coached the Sonics, unless you were to go all the way back to Payton. McMillian is in new territory and we’ll see how long he “trusts” Miller with the play calling

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Nov 7, 2009 8:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Miller can be a triangle guard alongside Roy

And triangle or not, Miller can post up and score or hit cutters. Roy’s value off-the-ball, I should think, is that his man would be reluctant to leave him, which creates space and passing lanes. It’s a shame that aspect of his game is being wasted.

I wish LAL had packaged AMMO and Farmar in a sign-and-trade for his services.

"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."

by ignign*kt on Nov 7, 2009 3:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Andre Miller is a pure point who can't spread the offense, so he'd be a horrible fit at the 1 in a ...

triangle offense. Now, for as much crap as I and others give Steve Blake, he’s the only 1 in Portland who’d actually be a good fit in Tex Winter’s ol’-fashioned triple post offense.

Dear Paul Allen:

Fire Nate McMillan & hire Jeff Van Gundy.

Sincerely,
AK1984

by AK1984 on Nov 7, 2009 5:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Miller is able to

play the 2-man-game well. He’s smart. But what makes him more suited to the triangle is the ability to post up smaller guards. That’s something I don’t believe Blake has in his game.

As to his 3pt shooting deficiency, that makes things a little trickier. But there are other ways to create space on the floor: setting picks, making cuts.

"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."

by ignign*kt on Nov 7, 2009 5:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The two-man game is played between the 2 and the 4 or 5, while the 1 is usually part of ...

the sideline triangle over in the corner or on the wing — which depends upon where the 3 is stationed at the time — and, apropos of point guards who can post-up smaller players, that’s not the job of a 1 in the triple post offense. As I’m sure you remember, Gary Payton — who’s one of the best post-up point guards in NBA history — had trouble adjusting to Tex Winter’s system due to him being a high-usage player with an inability to play off the ball effectively.

Regarding Steve Blake, he’s stylistically comparable to John Paxson. Steve Kerr was a better shooter, while Derek Fisher was a better defender; however, those two guys also had some stylistic similarities to Blake. The point here, ultimately, is than an off guard is what you want playing at the 1 in the triangle offense.

Dear Paul Allen:

Fire Nate McMillan & hire Jeff Van Gundy.

Sincerely,
AK1984

by AK1984 on Nov 7, 2009 6:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If Magic Johnson in his prime were a triangle 1 today

would Tex Winter forbid his post-up game? Don’t use your overwhelming size advantage, Magic. That’s not your job!

No, right? Because the triangle is very flexible. It creates space and passing lanes, forces teams to react to unfavorable match-ups, and gives teams options to respond to a defense’s reactions. This is possible in part because it doesn’t have rigidly defined roles.

Realistically, putting Miller on the low block and placing Artest or Kobe at the corner and wing is a workable configuration. So Miller can post up; and he can play the triangle 3 and initiate the triangle with a post-entry pass on one possession and play the triangle 2 and pick-and-roll w/ Gasol the next.

As for Payton, he had more trouble adjusting to being a role player than adjusting to the triangle, IMHO.

And I like Blake and he’s a conventional triangle 1. I just think Miller would be a bigger headache for opposing defenses.

"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."

by ignign*kt on Nov 8, 2009 12:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If you're suggesting to use Andre Miller in a Ron Harper type role, then I can sort ...

of get that perspective. The problem there, though, is Harper wasn’t as ball-dominant and had less usage than Andre Miller. Moreover, Harper — along with a guy like Brian Shaw — possessed more of a deep threat than Miller.

All things considered, the triangle offense employed sharp-shooting off guards (e.g., Craig Hodges, John Paxson, B.J. Armstrong, Steve Kerr, Randy Brown, Derek Fisher, Tyronn Lue, Lindsey Hunter, Jordan Farmar, Shannon Brown, et al.) or bigger, more versatile combo guards (e.g., Harper, Shaw, et al.) at the 1 rather than a pure point guard like Miller.

Dear Paul Allen:

Fire Nate McMillan & hire Jeff Van Gundy.

Sincerely,
AK1984

by AK1984 on Nov 8, 2009 12:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd like to see the Blazers adopt some apects of the triangle

into their offense. More ball movement, spacing, balance. But with more Post-up for LA and Greg than the usual. Not the easiest system to master, but the Blazers have smart players.

I think BBG is correct…except do not give up on Bayless… His future could still be very good, with the Blazers.

by Rick_D on Nov 7, 2009 3:00 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Anything to get more motion off the ball

I don’t know a lot about the triangle except basic stuff like what personnel work, and since we’re building around Roy and have a pretty similar roster to the l*kers it does make sense. The only two problems are that it would nullify Miller and you need point forwards who can pass well. If we’re going to keep using the 3 guard lineup, on offense we could play Miller like a point forward, Blake as the point to shoot 3s and Roy with the ball in his hands. I don’t think you can completely change offensive schemes midseason unless you change coach (although I disagree with some of his moves, I’m not in the fire Nate camp), but they could add a few plays every practice day and by the end of the season it could be a nice part of our attack.

Your confusing thesis has captured my attention. Tell me more.

by terryisntbald on Nov 7, 2009 10:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing wrong with the offensive sets

They just have not been executing with any consistency. There have been short stretches where things have looked great and long stretches where they look like a high school team running plays without shooting so they can learn all the options to the plays. In these stretches of ineffectiveness, they look like they have forgotten what they are trying to accomplish by the sets. Instead of running hard and getting to spots where they can take advantage of the defense and moving the ball quickly to those players, they are just moving around in the offense until someone has to throw the ball up to beat the clock.
The offense looked purposeful against the Spurs until about midway through the third and then got bogged down again. I see the bad stretches getting shorter as Miller gets more court time and guys get comfortable with their roles.

PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04

by tssbro on Nov 7, 2009 4:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

There was no

reason for Roy to play into Bogans strength (denying the ball) the whole game until the fourth when he was able to take him off the dribble and CREATE for himself or for others one of them being Oden. You wont win much if you nullify your best players strength. The reason Oden played well is because he stopped fumbling the ball (looked relaxed) and showed better touch than he had in the previous games.

by BBG on Nov 7, 2009 6:03 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Outlaw's head would explode.

"Ain't nothin' in this world for free."

by Arby on Nov 7, 2009 8:31 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Travis Outlaw is in no way, shape, or form a high-post facilitator at the 4.

At the backup 4 spot, a guy like Boris Diaw would fit perfectly in the triangle offense.

Dear Paul Allen:

Fire Nate McMillan & hire Jeff Van Gundy.

Sincerely,
AK1984

by AK1984 on Nov 8, 2009 12:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bulls still ran the triangle after MJ

The curry, hinrich, chandler, gordon, deng squads show you can run triangle with a pretty different group of personnel than either bulls1/2 or l*kers. Its just a really simple offense that frees up a lot of role players to just focus on making open shots. A kobe, michael, brandon, type player is useful on any team with any scheme. MJs main purpose in the Triangle was to bail out the bulls when it was well defended. Maybe the biggest strength of the offense is that more players are interchangeable, so it makes it easier to plug guys in around superstars. After a little while its boring to watch, imho.

by Sound_Automatic on Nov 8, 2009 11:47 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

If you're referring to the Bill Cartwright era, then you listed the wrong group of players apropos of the ...

Chicago Bulls attempting to revive the triangle offense during the 2002-2003 season. That team had Tyson Chandler/Eddy Curry (i.e., center), Doneyll Marshell/Marcus Fizer (i.e., power forward), Jalen Rose/Eddie Robinson (i.e., point forward), Jamal Crawford/Trenton Hassell (i.e., shooting guard), Jay Williams/Fred Hoiberg (i.e., off guard). Luol Deng, Ben Gordon, and Kirk Hinrich got their starts during the Scott Skiles era.

Dear Paul Allen:

Fire Nate McMillan & hire Jeff Van Gundy.

Sincerely,
AK1984

by AK1984 on Nov 8, 2009 5:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's the playing time distribution of that Bill Cartwright coached team.

http://82games.com/0203CHI2.HTM

Dear Paul Allen:

Fire Nate McMillan & hire Jeff Van Gundy.

Sincerely,
AK1984

by AK1984 on Nov 8, 2009 5:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

From what I have heard about the triangle from players, it is a difficult offense to learn,

so I think there’s little chance it happens here in Portland in the Mcmillan era. I can remember the announcers saying during the first Kobe / Shaq championship that this was the first year the players truly understood the triangle. Also, as our friendly LA fan posted above, the Blazers have trouble passing into the post. Let’s take baby steps toward being a good post team before talking about totally re-designing the offense.

by dario argento on Nov 8, 2009 1:02 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

A lot of players say that.

I just do not believe it. It just looks so simple in comparison to just about anything:

http://leogau.com/2009/06/11/the-triangle-offense/

Maybe its because the teams that ran it were good so they got a lot of old crusty veterans on the tail end of their careers who were set in their ways? OS X is supposed to be easy to use, but I don’t know where the buttons are. Year after year the bulls and l’kers have plugged people into it.

by Sound_Automatic on Nov 8, 2009 1:21 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Here's a good read

http://coach-jackson.com/trian4.pdf

he thoughtfully mentions that 1-2-3s are interchangeable

“the offense itself does not need a traditional point guard, since all outside positions are interchangeable”

by Sound_Automatic on Nov 8, 2009 1:53 PM PST reply actions   0 recs


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