Quick: Figuring Out How the Big Three Fit
I thought this article explained a lot about how the team has been playing the last few games. And it's more complicated than "Nate Sucks!" Maybe that conclusion remains, but it's never quite as simple as that. Go figure.
about 2 years ago
T Darkstar
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The blazers
have a big 3? Last time i checked they have only 1 all-star.
And Roy still makes the ASG
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
Brandon's stats are headed in the wrong direction
If the coaches picked the AS reserves today, Roy would only make it on “reputation”
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Roy might make it this year.
But it will be for past accomplishments, not how he is playing this year.
he's by far our best player so far this year. Its not even a contest.
'Cuse 88-Cornell 73. My Big Red failed to beat the spread by 2 points. Hence the new avatar.
Roy's
still putting up good numbers dispite the team trying to handcuff him. Handcuffing your one legitimate star can you believe that? Its no wonder this team is a mess.
Am I stupid or something?
Roy’s familiar forays into the lane have become few-and-far-between, usually because Oden and his man are in the key, presenting a detour. Also, most of Oden’s post plays do not involve Roy at all, leaving him standing on the perimeter.
For Aldridge, Roy’s reduced penetration has cut down on one of the duo’s favorite weapons – the drive and kick – while also limiting the space inside when Aldridge does decide to post.
I’m sure it can’t be as simple as I think it is. It couldn’t be. But just bear with me for a minute, just in case I’m not stupid.
Just imagine, that just for once, we run a real live pick and roll. You know the kind, where Brandon gets the ball at the top of the key, and Greg comes and sets a pick to the left side of Brandon’s man. Suppose that Brandon actually runs his man into that pick, for once, and then that Greg magically rolls to the hoop down the right side of the lane, while Brandon drives down the left side. Of course, Brandon’s man ran into the pick, so he’s sealed out of the play, and we have a 2 on 1 with Brandon and Greg.
Usually, something good happens out of a 2 on 1. Now, sometimes Brandon will go all the way, sometimes he might actually even dish to Greg (especially if Greg’s man has popped out on him. But instead of running an iso for Greg in the low post or an iso for Brandon, why don’t we involve BOTH OF THEM AT ONCE? Oops, not supposed to yell.
Oh, what about LMA? Obviously, he drifts out towards the elbow, and if his man shades inside to help on Brandon, we get the drive and dish, just like it says in the article. Of course, just before this we’ve had LMA setting a low pick which Rudy and Steve have been running off of and they are threats in the corner or out on the elbow for the three.
So you have Brandon up top, LMA on the low post on the left side, Greg on the low post on the right side, Steve/Rudy/Martell running off the low post picks and running their men around, and Greg pops up and across to set the pick for Brandon, LMA drifts out, Brandon uses the pick, Greg rolls, Brandon hits Greg when the defense doesn’t respect his roll to the hoop, and everything is beautiful. All Brandon has to do is use Greg’s pick a few times and hit him when he rolls, and all kinds of things will open up for Brandon.
Right now, nothing is there because a pick means Brandon is double-teamed. The opponents never, ever, ever have to pay any attention to Greg after he sets a pick, because we never actually pass him the ball, so both the center and Brandon’s defender can double Brandon. A pick isn’t setting Brandon free, it is just bringing another defender to trap him.
Brandon should have learned how to run the pick and roll his first year in high school. It would solve the vast majority of the problems if he would just learn to do this with Greg. Instead of running isos for one player, and the others being left out of it, you would have all players involved in the play, with none of them knowing who is going to shoot, but everyone knowing the defense has to give you something.
As many times as opponents have shredded our defense with a p’n’r, you would think we would get the idea it might be a good offensive weapon and use it occasionally.
But maybe everything I’ve said here is ludicrous, and I’m just stupid.
I don’t think so. This is not sophisticated NBA stuff, this is basketball 101.
"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5
by jscot on Dec 1, 2009 4:19 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I don't think you're stupid.
I do think there are a lot of people who aren’t as smart as they think, at least when it comes to being basketball analysts.
hakkaa päälle !
I think that Nate's amazing basketball mind should figure out how to use the pieces he has
Since our minds are unable to process
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Dec 1, 2009 11:06 AM PST up reply actions
Then he should facilitate that
It’s true that on this high level a coach can’t teach much basics anymore (or the player better not be a pro), but he can teach schemes, can remind players what they were doing when something went well (like shooting coach Townsend does), and can manage the game to make it easier or more difficult for his players.
Ceterum censeo Lakers esse delendam
You have to admit
The P&R with BRoy handling the ball gets instantly shut down by trapping him hard. My question is why?
Utah has run that play as the backbone of their offense since before I was born, and all I hear about is how it gets run so much across the league because it is relatively unstoppable.
Andre Miller can run it with our bigs. Bayless can half run it (AKA Kamikaze off the pick). Roy prefers to call off the picks, thinking thats good enough to prevent the trapping. I think this , not playing off the ball, is his most glaring offensive weakness as it comes up the most.
"I love me some mountain man." – ratbastird
Utah had Stockton and Deron Williams
Both of whom are much better passers than Roy. Andre Miller is also a much better passer than Roy.
Roy and Oden aren’t a particularity good P&R pair. Roy isn’t that good at “thread the needle” passes, and Oden isn’t that good at catching passes and staying under control while moving. Additionally, Oden isn’t a threat to pop out and hit a jump shot, so the other team only has to worry about defending against penetration.
Roy and Aldridge are a more effective P&R combination than Roy and Oden. Aldridge is more reliable than Oden when it comes to catching the ball on the move, driving to the basket, and not turning it over. Additionally, Aldridge is a threat to pop out and hit a jump shot. Passing to a player who is popping out for a jump shot is easier than passing to a player who is rolling to the basket, which is one of the main reasons why Roy and Aldridge run the pick and pop so much more than the pick and roll. The other reason is that teams focus on defending against penetration and don’t worry too much about defending against Aldridge’s long 2-point jumpers since those aren’t very efficient shots. If Aldridge started popping out a little further and shooting 3s (like Frye is doing in Phoenix), teams would start having to worry more about defending against his jump shots (since 3s are almost always more efficient than long 2s) and that would open up more opportunities for Roy and Aldridge to penetrate to the basket. So Roy and Aldridge have the potential to be a pretty effective P&R tandem if Aldridge develops a 3-point shot.
by trk on Dec 1, 2009 5:33 PM PST up reply actions
Not how I see it
On a pick and roll with Greg, you don’t have to thread the needle, just lob it up nice and easy. He can catch that.
The pick and roll is not predicated around popping out to hit a jump shot, it is on rolling to the hoop. You are talking about the pick and pop. Greg should never do the pick and pop, he should always roll (or just do the pick and slip and roll before setting the pick, if his man is cheating, which they always do on Brandon).
Roy and Aldridge are not particularly effective in the P&R, for the same reasons Roy and Oden aren’t. They DO run the pick and pop occasionally.
"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5
Basketball 101 is where this team seems to fail on a regular basis.
I do not in any way have a great mind for the game of basketball. I understand the basics, and that is about it. I routinely find myself baffled when I watch the Blazers play because they seem to have no understanding of the basic principles of the game. Or at least the basic principles as I see it.
My favorite routine failure is not taking advantage when the opposing team is in the penalty. Last season, I spent a lot of my life screaming at the TV. The Blazers’ opponent would have 4 fouls with 8 minutes left in the quarter so I’m yelling, “Take it to the basket and draw a foul.” Nope. Jump shot after jump shot after jump shot. Then with a minute left, Joel would get an offensive rebound, get hacked, and go to the line. It drove me crazy.
It’s always nice to see Andre in the game because he plays fundamental basketball IMO. Take it to the rim to draw fouls, get the ball inside for easy baskets and to get the opposing Big in foul trouble, cut to the basket and look for the ball (Greg to Andre for a layup is a beautiful thing to watch), and rebound, rebound, rebound (The guy rebounds like a stud for PG). Simple, fundamental stuff that routinely occurs at pick-up games around the globe but seems to be a mystery to the team I love. I don’t get it!!!!!!
A cliche from military planning is that ...
… no plan survives contact with the enemy.
The other guy isn’t a cardboard cutout. He’s not going to react the way you want him too, at least not all the time. Basketball 201 says to take advantage of the other team when they are in the penalty. Basketball 101 (ref. Professor John Wooden) says that the ball can move faster than any player, therefore you move the ball until you have an open shot.
One does not decide to ignore 101 in order to take advantage of 201. Namely because Basketball 316 tells you that when an opponent bulls his way to the basket, four things can happen, only half of which are to the opponents benefit. He can make the shot, he can miss the shot (or have it blocked), he can be fouled or he can commit a foul. If you play good defense, the odds are in your favor. Meaning it isn’t simplying a matter of simply charging to the hoop whenever you realize your opponent has 4 team fouls. You still have to play for the best shot.
hakkaa päälle !
I'm not suggesting that the Blazers charge headlong at the basket every single play.
I watched Bayless do that his entire rookie season with marginal results. I’m suggesting that, when their opponent is in the penalty, the Blazers look to attack the basket at a much more frequent rate than they normally do. Yes, the Blazers could get called for a charge or their shot could get blocked or they could just lose control of the ball. But they could also miss the wide-open jump shot or have to rush a shot as the clock winds down or commit a shot clock violation. Jump shots succeed about 45% of the time on average, and there is no guarantee that moving the ball will eventually create an open shot.
Of course, the team should still play for the best shot. However, as Andre seems to demonstrate every game, attacking the basket often has nothing to do with even taking a shot. If you get a guy out of position, off-balance or up in the air, you can create contact which draws a foul and puts you at the line. Sure you throw up a brick that may go in, but the point is to get to the line where you shoot 85%. Done right, you can almost guarantee a foul will be called.
If moving the ball creates a wide open shot, then take it. I won’t complain. But look for opportunities to create contact, bait guys into creating contact and recognize that drawing a foul is a legit offensive weapon. Andre shot 8 free throws in 4 straight possessions against Memphis (if memory serves). He forced Memphis to either play great defense, commit a foul or let him waltz in for a layup. That’s fundamental, smart basketball IMO.
As many times as opponents have shredded our defense with a p’n’r, you would think we would get the idea it might be a good offensive weapon and use it occasionally.
Another goofy thing is, Miller actually knows how to correctly run a PnR and to take advantage of Greg and LMA, but he’s not in the starting lineup with those guys
The Blazers offense = bizarro world. I don’t know if it’s Nate, or Brandon, or both that make the system gravitate towards ISOs and no player movement.
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Well, Nate McMillan ran the same high-low zone offense in Seattle and Brandon Roy scored most ...
often off of iso plays at the University of Washington; thus, the blame for Portland running and executing a relatively simplistic offensive system by NBA standards rests on both of their shoulders.
Dear Paul Allen:
Fire Nate McMillan & hire Jeff Van Gundy.
Sincerely,
AK1984
I'll worry about Miller starting to take advantage of Greg and LMA
when I actually see him running a pick and roll with them when he is on the court with them. It isn’t as if he never sees court time with them, he’s seen a lot, but how many times have we seen him run a pick and roll with either of them?
What we have seen from Andre is some really nice cuts to the basket when Greg has the ball in the low post. I could live with a lot more of that, and I know we won’t see Blake doing that.
"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5
To me it simply
Because teams are agressively double roy at the top of the key.
He has the ball plenty of times, just that the defensive is force him to pass more this year.
That and Outlaw has been missing, in effective.
Why/how are they double-teaming him?
When Greg comes up to set a pick, who is double-teaming Brandon? LMA’s defender? Blake’s? Martell’s? No, it’s Greg’s defender who shows hard, so Brandon is sandwiched between his defender and Greg’s. That happens Every Single Time.
Can we figure out how to punish that? I can, and so can half of Bedge.
1. Pull Martell/Rudy and Blake out to the corners before Greg sets the pick. Two defenders away from the key.
2. Pull LMA to the elbow. Third defender is now not between Greg and the basket.
3. Pick and slip. Greg moves like he’s going to pick, his defender moves out to cut off Brandon from going around the pick, and as his defender is moving in the wrong direction, Greg breaks to the hoop, not setting the pick.
4. Brandon waits until Greg is at the free throw line, and lobs the ball high.
5. Greg catches and dunks before the help can hope to arrive.
We do that twice a game, and teams will stop doubling Brandon so hard at the top of the key, and we can run a normal p’n’r.
"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5
Oh.
Spot on btw. Everbody knows by know Roy doesn’t look to the picker.
Quick is also guilty of rewriting history, it was Sergio who gave Aldridge most of his rolls, and pops.
The fact that this isn't rec'd shows the state of confusion that Blazersedge is in right now.
Also this being a comment in a fan shot and not a fan post makes me worry that jscot is feeling the confusion as well. All I can say is us Blazers Bloggers NEED TO FIGURE IT OUT. Dave and Ben NEED TO FIGURE IT OUT. Back to what jscot was saying.
This is not sophisticated NBA stuff, this is basketball 101
This is absolutely correct. Brandon and Greg (or LMA) not knowing how to beat a double team off a pick n’ role is no excuse for giving up on the pick n’ role. Whether that means Brandon needs to pass the rock to Greg, or Greg needs to sprint sooner to the hoop, or Brandon needs to pull a “John Stocton” and run into the guy guarding Oden to pick up a foul something needs to be done.
Pushing tempo is great, and it’s fun to watch, but great Defense and half court offense win championships and that is all I care about.
I'm calling for 57 wins this season.
by 123_G.O._RipCity on Dec 1, 2009 4:02 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, I thought about making it a fanpost
I decided not to because I didn’t want to sound like I was joining the “Fire Nate” brigade.
"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5
I’ve been waiting for this all year.
You’d think with Roy’s ability to break down a defense this would already be a staple in the offensive scheme. But then I nothing at all about basketball.
The real problem with your concept is this will put the ball in Odens’ hands far too often. And with Oden at a .605 shooting percentage this will translated into less offensive rebounds. Hence, this will completely destroy Odens’ PER and double/double possibilities. Do they even play basketball where you live? It’s all about PER, sheeeeeees.
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
I think the only place they play basketball around here
is in my driveway.
Your comments on PER ignore my genius. Would the great jscot forget such a thing?
Obviously, if Brandon and Greg were doing this, the opponents’ centers would foul out in the first half, PFs by the end of the third, and Greg would get all the defensive rebounds.
Not only that, if Nate thinks Greg’s PER isn’t high enough, he could run Roy isos to get Greg some offensive rebounds, or dish to Blake to miss some 3s. There’s lots of options in my plan to get Greg offensive rebounds.
Besides, in my scheme, there’s a secret weapon. I hesitate to mention it here, but actually, the opponents can do nothing about it, so it is safe.
If we run the p’n’r effectively, Greg is going to have inside position on the defenders, right? And if he does, and his rebounding numbers aren’t high enough, he can just pass the ball to himself off the backboard a few times before scoring.
Moses Malone built a great career on that move, and I don’t see why Greg can’t.
"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5
well said jscot
Brandon should have learned how to run the pick and roll his first year in high school. It would solve the vast majority of the problems if he would just learn to do this with Greg.
I was kinda thinking about writing a fan post about the Great Mysteries of Blazers offense and Roy’s complete ineptness to run pick and roll is the top one in my mind.
This is exactly what is so messed up about the Blazers.
At least it is if you have an attention span that doesn’t extend much past the the end of the week.
I see this as a good problem. In fact isn’t this the problem we all really, really wanted? Didn’t we all expect or at least hope that Roy, Aldridge and Oden developed into three of the best players in the league? And weren’t we excited about having such additional young talent as Rudy and Nic and Jeryod, along with solid role players like Blake and Joel?
For all intents and purposes, Portland is trying to integrate 3 new starters into their offense from last season. Why do you think Nate made the point during the suimmer and preseason about going into the season with the same starting lineup as ended last season? But nooo, that was stupid. That was evidence that McMillan is an idiot as a coach. Obviously Nate doesn’t know what he’s doing. Obviously!
Except that maybe he does know just a wee bit more about the NBA and in particular, this team, then any of the armchair coaches that like to throw stone after stone. So, should we go back to last year’s starting lineup? I believe we know the answer to that one. If that was the answer, Nate wouldn’t hesitate. But he knows that long term Brandon and LaMarcus are going to have to figure it out on their own. They are going to have to learn how to further develop and mesh their games with that of the big guy in the middle. Because Oden is the future of Portland. Without Greg the Blazers are a perrenial playoff team with a possible shot at a title. With him they will be among the top 3 or 4 teams expected to compete for the title for the next 5 – 10 years.
So how about we just give these young men a little time? It is not critical in any sense or imagination that Portland win 60 or 55 or even 50 games this season. What is important is the continued maturation of our very young team.
hakkaa päälle !
I knew this season was going to start a little rocky....
trying to incorporate Greg into the offense and also Andre Miller but once they figure it all out they will be a great team.
by jenstcy on Dec 1, 2009 8:30 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
Here Here!!!
Hopefully these bumps motivate the team. Players do one of two things when losing, look out for themselves or look out for the team. Times like these should prove why we value character so much at every roster spot.
"I love me some mountain man." – ratbastird
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