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Trade question from a Hornets fan


What'sgood Rip City? I had a trade idea that I wanted to toss around, and I was wondering if I could get some input from the Blazers faithful. Here it goes:

Marcus Thornton, Posey, Julian Wright and a first for

Rudy, Martell, and Outlaw.

Here's the deal: For us this makes sense becuase we get cap space and our wings for the future. Rudy and Martell are perfect compliments for CP, especially Rudy. He is a 2 guard with great handles so he can occasionally bring the ball up the floor, and he can shoot the 3 so he spaces the floor for Chris Paul. Our issues last year and this year revolved around an overeliance on CP, offensive predictability, and a lack of shot creators.  Also our offense is at its deadliest when our wings are hitting open 3 point j's. It opens up the floor for CP and forces wings to stay at home, and either double with a big or take CP one on one. Rudy is perfect becuase he is such a good ball handler and passer. His ability to bring the ball up the floor and pass prevents teams from doubling CP hard at the top of the key. Martell can play good D and hit the open 3 which is all we need from the 3.

Also, Outlaw probably will not be ready this year which is a shame, but his contract is expiring, which would save the Hornets about 4 million next year. It allows the Hornets to do a bit of a salary dump while saving face because we get some quality players in return.

For you guys, here's the deal. Thornton, is a scorer, plain and simple. He put the ball in the hole. That's about it. He's a good three point shooter, he draws fouls, he can score on pin downs, post ups, you name it. He also doesn't need alot of minutes to be effective. Perfect 6th man. He plays rookie d, and he isn't a really good passer but do you guys even need that stuff? 12 points in about 19 minutes a game.

You also get Julian Wright and Posey. Juju is not a scorer at all, but he does everything else, especially play d. He would essentially play the same role that Batum played. He can also play the 4 because of his length and his rebounding, so you guys would get a small ball 4. But again, he is not a scorer, and his turnover rate is pretty high. And then there is Posey. When Pose is on a good team is an utter gamer. Late threes, defensive reobunding, drawing charges. That's his game. He could also play the small 4 and has the added benefit of being a 3 point shooter. This would give you the floor spacer at the 4 that Outlaw provided. He is getting pretty old, and had a slow start, but has picked it up lately, and  is back to his old self. He has been the final piece for multple teams and he would give the Blazers added toughness and another clutch shooter even though they don't need one. He is also a vet, something you guys are a bit light on. You also get a pick, and there is a serious possibility that the Hornets don't make the playoffs so it could be a lottery pick.

There has been alot of talk about cohesion issues this year with your team. Trades don't usually help that, but the 2 players that you get in this trade will help immensely because of three reasons. First, they all know their role. Thornton, is a microwave scorer in limited minutes. Juju is a stopper. Posey is a playoff gamer. They know what they do well, they don't need to start, and their games are complimentary. For Posey and Juju, neither are big shooters, and both only take open shots. They both take care of your forward issues at the 3 or the 4. Nate seems to prefer a small 4, and they both can fit the bill.

Also, eventually, I think coming off of the bench will take a toll on Rudy. He has a starter's game. Yeah he can do the spark plug thing fine, but he doesn't score at a really high clip compared to a guy like Ginobili, or even Bayless, or even... Thornton. This role doesn't take as much advantage of his versatility, passing ,and dribbling skills, especially with Miller playing backup since he needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Also, his minutes will always be limited because he is backing up one of the best 2's in the game. His ability to play his natural position wil lalways be limited as long as he plays with Roy. Less a concern for the Blazers then for Rudy.

Okay, so what are your thoughts, am I crazy? I'd love to get some input form you guys,

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Rudy

needs to work on his dribbling before I’d call him even a “good” ball handler.

by beeroy on Nov 29, 2009 4:17 PM PST reply actions  

Rudy ain't going anywhere

we don’t need a trade, unless it involves Blake. We need a coach that actually wants to coach.

"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man

by PDXBuckeye on Nov 29, 2009 4:33 PM PST reply actions  

I just can’t imagine a world in which Portland pulls the trigger on this trade… Thornton is a rook who has played well at times, but is largely unproven since we’re not even a quarter of the way through the season, Posey is intriguing, but I think his decline is more age related than a result of playing in NO and Julian Wright = Martell Webster without a 3-point shot, so I don’t see why we’d swap the two

O is for Offense
D is for Defense
E is for Energy
N is for Not in my house chump

by The Arkitect on Nov 29, 2009 4:37 PM PST reply actions  

I mostly agree with this.

You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.

by austinpwnz on Nov 29, 2009 11:58 PM PST up reply actions  

NO

Outlaw still has the potential to be a very good scoring sixth man. Dont let the lack of minutes fool you, the dude is a beast. Streaky-but still very beasty like. PLus he is B-Roy’s best friend. Hes not exactly a sacred cow on the team, but i see his value as pretty high for the blazers.

Thornton is a very young shooting guard who shoots the three and plays no d. Sorta like rudy, only rudy helps start more fast breaks. For that last reason i would choose rudy over thornton.

Posey is something i like. He seems to be a good veteran prescence, but with his disappearence after getting paid, makes me a little sketish.

Julian Wright? seriously? No offense, but i see no reason to add him, other then to inject some new bodies in the roster.

by pereginfalcon on Nov 29, 2009 4:37 PM PST reply actions  

Rudy is staying, period.

Unless he somehow takes a complete nosedive instead of continuing to improve, he’s such a bargain via his contract that it would be impossible to get equal value in return.

by dulcamara on Nov 29, 2009 4:41 PM PST reply actions  

Posey, as in James Posey?

Parkey Posey? Come to think of it, there are zero Poseys that I want to trade for.

But I love you :-(
by Mortimer on Nov 19, 2009 7:04 PM PST

by TheTinfoil on Nov 29, 2009 5:25 PM PST reply actions  

How about just Webster for Posey?

I’d do that in an instant. The trade you suggest isn’t too unfair, though, but we already have one pint-sized scorer glued to our bench.

by meru on Nov 29, 2009 5:27 PM PST reply actions  

I'd do that in a second

Still a good deal for both teams. Martell would start at the 2 and backup peja at the 3. We don’t sacrifice our future, and you don’t give up a fan favorite. I don’t know if the contracts work out though.

by jdpourciau on Nov 29, 2009 6:04 PM PST up reply actions  

I feel like I watched posey single handedly lose about thre games last year.

The man could be the worst inbounds passer in the league.

And yes, I know Blake is also in the league.

dinasour type of guys choir boys

by mittsabishy on Nov 29, 2009 6:08 PM PST up reply actions  

He also won some big ones for us.

Pose came through in the clutch on some big games for us last year. There are about 5 games that I can think of off the tope of my head including against Cleveland and an away game against Phoenix where his 3’s sealed the deal. It wasn’t talked about much in the ocean of negativity surrounding the Hornet’s season last year, but we had one of the best records against winning teams in the league. Alot of that was due to Pose. He steps it up for the big games.

by jdpourciau on Nov 29, 2009 6:40 PM PST up reply actions  

19-25 against winning teams

decent but not great.

Where was he when you guys folded in the fourth against us last year? All it needed was three or four clutch plays anytime in the fourth to put us back to sleep. That was exactly the kind of game you expect guys like him to win for you.

"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5

by jscot on Nov 30, 2009 4:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Salaries don't work straight up

close, but Portland needs to add 162k to make the deal work. Toss in Dante Cunningham and the deal works. Martel and Dante for Pose

What are you impressions of Roy?
"He's just a very, very good basketball player. Very smart. Very heady. He can do a little bit of everything on the court. As coaches, when we scout Portland we kind of put him in the same category as Kobe (Bryant), LeBron (James), Dwyane Wade. We treat him the same. He's that good."

- Byron Scott

by CMCWizard on Nov 29, 2009 6:13 PM PST up reply actions  

I would if you would

Yeah, the Hornets could always use a little front line help so again we would do this. Also, this would make it easier to cut a player like Hilton or Sean Marks.

by jdpourciau on Nov 29, 2009 6:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Terrible deal

We give up Rudy’s 1 million dollar deal, Travis’s expiring, and Webster for Posey’s crap contract, a rookie who is worse than Rudy and Julian Wright, a bust.

The only “bad” asset we give up is Martell and his contract, but that’s heavily outweighed by Posey’s worse contract. (And because Posey stinks now)

by BlazerKoolAid on Nov 29, 2009 5:45 PM PST reply actions  

Thanks for the comments guys.

I appreciate the input folks. It is always good to see if the fake trade in your head makes as much sense to the other side. (Btw, why are fake trades so much fun.)

If I may respond to a few of the commenters.

1) I understand that you guys love Rudy. It makes complete sense. He’s got great energy, and he does alot of things really well. My question is for this year, and in the near future, does he put you over the top? Do you have space for him in your final crunch time 5? You guys are obviously good enough to get deep into the playoffs but when that happens, who is in the game in game 7 vs. the Lakers? Is it Rudy? You put him or Roy as your point guard, and any semi decent pg will run right around them. You put him or Roy at the 3, and any semi decent small forward runs right through them. Posey plays that Robert Horry role. Maybe he no longer starts but he is one of very few people in the league that you can trust with the open 3 after a team doubles Roy, or to get that final charge, or to guard the best guy on the other team. That’s crucial, and you guys don’t have that. Honestly, we do, but we don’t need that because right now, we aren’t good enough to be in that scenario. Sad but true.

2) Juju is not a better player than Martell but he is a better defender. He is taller, longer, and more athletic. I know that’s just visuals, but his defensive +/- is also crazy good. His fatal flaw relative to the Hornets is that he can’t hit the cathc and shoot j, and that is vital for the Hornets because we need floor spacers to compliment CP’s game. That’s less of a problem for you guys because you have more shooters. Juju is also a much better rebounder. He doesn’t have the shot, that Martell has, not even close, but he is a better defender AND as I said before he and Pose can do somethign that Nate needs, he can play the small ball 4. Pose is a floor spacing 4 who rebounds, Juju is a fastbreak 4 who rebounds (they are kind of like a combo Outlaw except both play better D.

3) Outlaw probably won’t play for the rest of the year, and if he does it will take him a long time to get back into the swing of things, if at all. Right now, he is dead weight and an expiring contract. Sad but true.

4) It is true, Rudy is a better all around player than Thornton, but he isn’t a better scorer. Thornton already has 3 games in which he has scored 20 or more points. Do you know how many Rudy had all year last year? 3. He has only had one this year. Again, a big part of this deal for you guys is that you are getting role players which is what you need. Juju is only a bust if you think Batum is a bust. They play the same game, only Juju is a better rebounder and he can play the 4. You guys are right, it does transfer a cap hit to you, but that is why you get a possible lottery first in the deal.

by jdpourciau on Nov 29, 2009 6:02 PM PST reply actions  

regarding 1)
Maybe he no longer starts but he is one of very few people in the league that you can trust with the open 3 after a team doubles Roy, or to get that final charge, or to guard the best guy on the other team. That’s crucial, and you guys don’t have that.


I would argue Batum is this man.

Top 5 songs near and dear to my ears:

The Mars Volta - L'via L'viaquez
Regina Spektor - Back of a Truck
Death Cab for Cutie - Little Bribes
Joanna Newsom - Monkey & Bear
Devendra Banhart - Long Haired Child

by Marmaduke on Nov 29, 2009 6:22 PM PST up reply actions  

bah

i need to learn to use block quotes correctly.

or preview first. =)

Top 5 songs near and dear to my ears:

The Mars Volta - L'via L'viaquez
Regina Spektor - Back of a Truck
Death Cab for Cutie - Little Bribes
Joanna Newsom - Monkey & Bear
Devendra Banhart - Long Haired Child

by Marmaduke on Nov 29, 2009 6:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Really?

You trust Nic with that shot? Fair enough I guess,but I’d rather Pose in the crunch. No offense. Also will he even be back health this year?

by jdpourciau on Nov 29, 2009 6:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Let's just analyze this

You are willing to do Martell for Posey, straight up.

That means, in effect, you are offering us Wright, Thornton, and a probable 18-20 pick for Rudy and Travis.

Re your first point, you may be right that the best thing we can do is trade Rudy. But if we can’t do better than that for Rudy and Travis, then I’m Kevin Pritchard.

And if I’m KP, I’m stupid for posting as much as I do on Blazersedge.

And that is the only way this deal happens, if KP is as stupid as me.

"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5

by jscot on Nov 30, 2009 4:40 AM PST up reply actions  

My red and black glasses do not allow me to trade rudy

bayless leaves over my dead body
Start Andre (in a 2 guard lineup)
"Good defense always beats bad offense."-Al Iannazzone, Yes Network

by thomasikehara on Nov 29, 2009 6:57 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Rudy goes no where!

Martell is improving his game to game, and sad to say Outlaw is a cheap resign now that he’s injured.

by draker on Nov 29, 2009 8:23 PM PST reply actions  

No..

..The only Hornet The Blazers need at all is CP3

by philthebballplayer on Nov 29, 2009 8:29 PM PST reply actions  

Thanks, an interesting proposal

Interesting nobody has accounted for the alue of a potential lottery pick in a loaded draft. I know we don’t need to get younger, but it’s still an asset. I think I say no mostly due to Posey’s age/contract, as by the time our championship window is fully open i see him as more of a dead weight contract than contributor (a huge reason im glad we didnt sign turkoglu). Agree with your assessment that Outlaw’s primary alue to this team is his expiring contract

by momomoses7 on Nov 29, 2009 11:40 PM PST reply actions  

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