I would like nothing more than to rehash last night’s game with them!

:-)

My guess is that most of them will agree. Also, they’re going to try to trade us Hinrich Maneuver for a bag of ball….don’t do it!

I completely agree that Rose was seen as being more of a true PG before the draft, which is why he went #1 and Bayless didn’t. I think his draft position was also influence by the fact that he played for a much better college team. Memphis was stacked with talent. Arizona was not. And remember that Lute Olson had a stroke and started acting crazy in the middle of Bayless’ time there. That team was dysfunctional and it affected Bayless’ perceived value.

Moreover, my analysis is more focused on what they’ve done in the NBA. And in the NBA, at least so far, Rose hasn’t demonstrated that he’s a true PG. He has not demonstrated good court vision or good distribution skills. All he has shown is a knack for getting to the rim off the dribble. Like Bayless, he is very one dimensional at this point, and people in Chicago are finally starting to notice this.

Moreover, due to his ankle injury, he hasn’t even been great at dribble penetration this year.

Yes, I mentioned market size, but clearly the primary difference I pointed to was playing time. Rose got a ton of minutes last year. He started all year long. Same is true of Jennings and Evans and Roy. Bayless landed on an already good team and only got spot minutes here and there. Nothing consistent. When Blake was injured and Bayless finally got some real run, he did pretty well, even with only backup minutes. Had Bayless been drafted by a mediocre team that let him start all year long, he’d have put up some pretty impressive rookie numbers and your opinion of him would be very different.

Rose doesn’t use that wingspan atm so it makes little difference. I would hope for Chicago’s sake that at some point he put those defensive tools to use. Derrick Rose with Jerryd Bayless’ intensity on the defensive end would be a nightmare.

Though Bayless also has ten pounds on Rose and is much stronger. And it shows in terms of crashing the basket and drawing fouls. Moreover, Rose has not shown that he can use his wingspan effectively on defense, where it matters. Bayless is currently a better defender than Rose.

       made up for it with a BULL neck and a mouth of 9" teeth.
Bayless and T-Rex have a lot in common !!!

       LONG LIVE THE BREX !!!

Rose is not bigger than Bayless. They’re the same height and Bayless has 10 pounds on Rose. Wingspan only matter on defense and Rose is not a good defender. And you claim that Rose has much better passing instincts. Based on what? I watch him all the time and I don’t see it.

Bayless can dribble just fine. He just doesn’t have good distributive instincts. But neither does Rose.

Shows people from Portland and Chicago can indeed think alike :)

I don’t think Bayless is great. I just don’t think Rose is yet either. I think he’s very one-dimensional. He’s Bayless with more playing time.

LMA and Tyrus were thought to be comparable when drafted (which is why they were traded for one another). Both LMA and Tyrus have gotten significant playing time over several seasons. The empirical record is clear. The verdict is in.

But Bayless and Rose are only second-year players and only one of them (Rose) has gotten real playing time. My argument is that if Bayless was given similar court time, he’d have comparable numbers to point to. You can disagree, but until Bayless actually gets sustained playing team, we are necessarily dealing with hypotheticals. It’s not the same thing as LMA/Tyrus.

I think both Bayless and Rose are unproven commodities at this point, with similar strengths and weaknesses.

but try lampooning the idea instead of the person.

It looks like we are trying to do TT=LMA from a Blazer perspective.

Coaches are often not so good at evaluating potential. Plus my point was more about Rose being over-hyped than Bayless being under-hyped.

But they indeed are similar players, hence they got compared in high school and college. Bayless is in the same ballpark as other young combo point guards like Rose, Westbrook (I absolutely believe he has the same skillset, except for rebounding), Lou Williams, etc. Older guys like Arenas and Parker aren’t pure point guards either. The notion is more and more outdated, and next to Roy we need a guy who can defend point guards, not be a pure one himself. If Bayless can show that, and hit open mid- to long-range shot, he will be fine for this team. He’s definitely a quality NBA player, here or elsewhere.

That pretty much sums up exactly how I feel. Rose is probably better, but the gap isn’t that big. Rose is very over-rated.

http://www.82games.com/0809/FGSORT7.HTM

Bayless is a better worker? Based on what? Right, you’re pointless anecdotal evidence.

And your post is recommended.

In fact, I think it is the appropriate epilogue to this discussion.

I think we actually agree about more than we disagree. Despite my overly provocative title to the post, as you can see when reading it, my point is a hypothetical one. There’s no question that Rose has proven more than Bayless, by a long shot. My hunch, however, is that if Bayless had been given similar freedom and playing time as a rookie, this comparison wouldn’t seem quite so nuts. The two players have very comparable skill sets and abilities (and weaknesses).

As far as homerism goes, you’ve got a point. In my defense, though, I’m not one of those guys who generally thinks the 10th or 11th guy on the bench is so great. I don’t even think Bayless is that great. I just am very unimpressed by Derrick Rose.

Also, it’s worth noting that the Blazers actually have a relevant history in this regard. We often have guys who get DNPs on our team who then light things up elsewhere. The best example of this is Jermaine O’Neal, who rode the pine for years getting spot minutes as a Blazer only to instantly become an 8 time all star when traded. This year, Channing Frye (a guy who got DNPs for us last year) is lighting it up in Phoenix.

That context helps explain why we are often so worried that the guy at the end of the bench is much better than anyone gives him credit for.

Absolutely true that it’s impossible to make a legitimate comparison until, at the very least, Bayless has a consistent run of 20 minutes or more per game. I think the idea of the post is to speculate about what the comparison might look like once that actually does happen.

Can anybody legimately argue that Bayless is better than Rose right now? No. It’s a non-starter.

Is it possible Bayless could end up more productive than Rose, given consistent minutes? Absolutely it is. Rose has a PER under 15 this year. He’s averaging 15 and 5. His TS% is under 50.

Apples and oranges, I agree, but in limited minutes Bayless has a higher PER. Again, that doesn’t create a legitimate argument that he’s better right now. But it does make it impossible to dismiss the theory that, given consistent minutes, it’s POSSIBLE that he could be better.

but a very different one. I agree that other rookies (like Westbrook) had seasons comparable to Rose’s last year and were over-looked. But my point about Bayless is a more hypothetical one. I think if Bayless had been been given the playing time that either Westbrook or Rose had last season, he would have been in the rookie of the year chase.

I agree though that—given the choice of the three of them—I’d choose Westbrook. He’s more of a true point guard. And he can score.

And really that was all I was saying. I just forgot to add “at ping pong” to the end of my post..

I definitely could have used a less provocative headline, but if you read the post, you’ll see that my argument is not so much that Bayless—right now—is equal to Rose, but that Bayless could be equal to Rose if given Rose’s playing time. Rose’s playoff performance (which I watched every minute of) was preceded by a full season playing major starting minutes for his team. Experience is vital to development. Bayless has only played a few games where he’s gotten more than token minutes. I do think Bayless will eventually get his chance, though (whether on Blazers or elsewhere) and will eventually prove to be as good as Derrick Rose.

But I think if you bother to read the numerous other posts I’ve written at this site, you’ll see that I’m not a reflexive homer. I’m often very critical of guys on the Blazers. But I feel somewhat uniquely qualified to make this particular argument, because I happen to have watched nearly every Blazer and Bull game for the past two seasons, and it’s my opinion that Rose—while a good player—has pretty much the same strengths and weaknesses as Jerryd Bayless. I thought they were very similar players coming out of college and that Rose’s stock was inflated by being on a very deep and talented Memphis team and Bayless’ stock was deflated by playing on a very dysfunctional Arizona team (the year Lute Olsen had a stroke). Since coming to the NBA, Rose has gotten a lot of playing time and Bayless has gotten very little, largely because of the situations in which the ended up.

Rose may well be a better player than Bayless (he has certainly proven more so far), but I really don’t think there’s very much difference from a talent perspective. If/when Bayless is given the opportunity to play consistently, I think his game will very closely mirror Rose’s.

Seriously, though, I’m somewhat taken aback by the tone of moral certainty in the dismissive comments here. If I was talking about a player who had logged significant playing time, I could understand the certaintly of those insisting I’m wrong. But the truth is that no one really knows how good Bayless will be. He’s never really gotten any serious playing time. He’s a question mark. Maybe he’ll be a bust. Maybe he’ll be the next Jarrett Jack. But maybe he’ll be the next Derrick Rose. Rose isn’t Michael Jordan. It’s not like he’s set a bar that no else can hope to attain. Since high school, Bayless and Rose have been compared. And in their one year in college, Rose was playing in a much better system, surrounded by top-caliber talent. Bayless spent his year on a totally dysfunctional and coachless Arizona team. And yet they were still draft only 10 spots apart, both in the lottery. There’s no reason to believe Jerryd can’t be as good as Derrick Rose. None. That might not prove to be the case, but for now, it’s certainly possible.