Taking Back the Neighborhood...
by Ilikeemall on Nov 23, 2009 6:23 PM PST
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PrintFirst things first... I've never created a Fanpost and may never again but I owe the BE community at least one attempt.
This post is an attempt to present a different philosophy of fandom not an effort to impose my views. It is an alternate take on things and I fully understand that it may not be your take on things.
I choose to judge the team I love, and have loved since its inception, in ways that some people do not understand. In this winning is everything world character is as important to me as PER. Loyalty and Hardwork are equal or greater than assists/turnover ratio or +/-. I choose to not judge Nate for his decisions because I do not know all the factors that go into making them. I refuse to call out Brandon Roy as selfish or inflexible because he was my hero last year and I have seen nothing in his actions or his words to change that. I absolutely will not bash Steve Blake because, despite the flaws that have been sited here ad naseum he is a quality individual who takes the floor every night and gives 100% of himself. He is well spoken and positive when interviewed and by golly he will take no guff from any opponent, no matter the size. In short he's a great teammate and somebody I can be proud to pull for. Guys like Steve were few and far between not that long ago on the Blazers and I take it personal when people take shots at him.
When I discovered this site I had already been to the infamous O-live for a few months and was awe struck at the intelligence and respect shown here. After lurking for a short time I started to comment and interact with some very good basketball minds and writers like jscot and Storyteller... minds that seem to be less and less prevalent here as this new age of posters has arrived. A new group of people seem to have taken over BE. A group that finds only fault in the team. A group that says things like, "Steve Blake is Dead to Me" and "I hate the way Roy is playing". This new breed has an apparent need to say negative things I find disrespectful, not to mention without merit, about the very building blocks that brought us from the dark days of Bonzi Wells and Rueben Patterson to the light of an open window of opportunity.
I'll get off my soap box now and leave you with these questions... Is there room for fans like myself on this site? Is this great community headed down the common road O-Live has chosen?.. or can the old and the new find a way to co-exist here by sharing and respecting opinions without the repetitive and ugly bashing that now seems to penetrate every Fanpost and Comment section?
(I would like to also apologize for any anger or disrespect I have shown other posters on BE... My passion for the Blazers admittedly gets the best of me at times)
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I have been thinking the very same thoughts...
the last few days. Thanks for this! I was starting to think we were becoming as bad as a L*ker site here. I not sure when bashing people became the first and best way of showing your support. But like you, I started enjoying this site for the DEPTH and thoughtfulness of peoples observations …not just to hear people vent.
There is room here for all opinions and styles. Maybe it goes in Cycles and will swing back to a less hostile style… we shall see.
Personally I am enjoying this season as much as any. Do I have things about the coaching I don’t understand? Sure. Do I think Nate is an idiot because I don’t understand …of course not. I still believe that for this team at this time… he is the perfect Coach/ Teacher. (on a side note, I also at this point like Blake in the starting lineup..for things that can NOT be measured in the Box score..like Leadership and trust.)
My hope and Challenge to some of the great posters on here…including the two you have mentioned……is to make sure we hear from you all. I love talking basketball and more specifically the Blazers…that is why I am here, but I agree the the knee jerk style gets old quick.
I would Rec you 10 if I could.
RoadBlazer
by Roadblazer on Nov 23, 2009 6:59 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
interesting observations
I could be wrong here, but as a long-time B-Edger myself, it has seemed to me that many of the ones voicing vocal displeasure at some of the recent moves are the SAME people that have been on this site providing deep and interesting analysis here for a long time, not some “new breed” of people new to the site.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
by douglast on Nov 23, 2009 7:06 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I've started to look at the date people joined...
and it doesn’t seem that way. You may be right but several of the posts that seem negative are from people who have joined in the last couple weeks… Thanks for your comments.
by Ilikeemall on Nov 23, 2009 9:51 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Mistaken dichotomy, Doug
I can only speak for myself, not for Ilikeemall, but my concern is not “voicing displeasure” but the rude and disrespectful way it is being done recently. It’s taking all the fun out of the site.
Any reasonable analysis of basketball is going to end up finding fault at times, because it is a game full of imperfections.
"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5
well, I was referring mostly to the well-reasoned posts that have been voicing displeasure
I agree with you, and llikeemail, that the rude and disrespectful shout downs and one liners aren’t contributing anything substantive.
When I first found BE, it became a haven for me because unlike almost any open forum on the internet, it rarely if ever sunk to shoutdowns and namecalling and instead trafficked in well-thought, well-articulated posts. I think it is still mostly the case, and hope it alwasy remains this way.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
There's room for everyone here...
…to talk about the Blazers. I also think things can be pretty negative around here. That may seem strange to you as you did show frustration with one of my posts – going as far as to say you were never coming back to Bedge again. I think you took what I was saying out of context. I was meaning to defend Miller and you assumed I was attacking Roy (which I wasn’t). I would encourage you to try to look at what other posters are saying from multiple points of view before assuming they mean something they don’t. I challenge myself to do the same thing. Either way, it’s a public forum. There’s room for you if you want to be here. Just keep in mind that you can’t really define a person or what type of fan they are by one fanpost or a poorly received comment.
....formerly GonzoFan. Now, this has been a message from "The People's Alliance to Continue to Encourage Greg Oden on his Path to Dominance"
Good debate is part of this site/sports talk
I say that as a diehard Blazer fan who, among changes that would be made if I ruled the world, would start Miller and tell Brandon to get used to it, play Rudy and Bayless more, and offer Steve Blake up to the Magic for Brandon Bass. Disagreement is fine – heck, it’s great so long as the dialog is respectful among the participants and to the subjects (player, coach, or GM) of the conversation. None of us (unless the KP lurker rumor is true) will ever be decision makers for the Blazers, and this is the venue where we can all share and debate our thoughts. I do agree that some of the discussion on this site has crossed the line. Posters slamming other posters, bad stuff about players and coaches who, even if we don’t like the performance/decision, are putting forth their max efforts to bring this town a title – I agree that needs to stop. The best thing all of us can do is keep in mind what makes this site work – informed opinions, measured disagreement, and respect for each other. If we do that, it’s all good. Thanks for the reminder, even though judging by our respective views, that may be all we agree on, lol. Have a good night and go Blazers!
November 23, 2009: In a shocker, KP once again proves smarter than this DeJuan Blair fanboy because the Inferno is a ballplayer who fits with our post focused centers perfectly.
Thank you very much for your input...
You’re correct that we won’t agree but I respect your opinion and appreciate your stance.
Great new signature too by the way!
GO BLAZERS!!!
Probably it takes time to newcomers to get the flow and mood, or whatever, of this site.
Posts like yours help a lot. The mods are probably making their work too. And Dave remind us from time to time what´s all about.
I wonder when Ben will join them and give us a lecture about manners, politeness, education and stuff. ;)
by amlmart1 on Nov 24, 2009 5:26 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Passion is sports, if there were no passion it wouldn't be fun
Also I’m all about winning, less about wanting to be best friends with the players.
Different strokes for different folks I spose.
Blazer Fan
That's fine. But - and I'm not saying you do this - post full of observations like
“Smith sucks,” “Jones is garbage” and “Bob is an idiot” whether said about posters, our players and coaches and the other team’s players and coaches degrades the site. Tell me why you think a player shouldn’t start or should be traded, cool. But I appreciate basketball talk, not namecalling.
What fun is following sports if you can't criticize?
Debate and 2nd guessing are fun. I realize that’s not true for everyone, but lots of people like to feel engaged beyond just watching and deferring. Its why people do fantasy sports, it turns something fundamentally passive into something at least a little active.
I loved when McMillan went to that goofy three guard lineup. It gave us something to analyze, critique, debate about. But there can’t be a debate if everyone defers.
And I think its crazy Oden doesn’t get more minutes, and I think McMillan’s hook is too fast when it comes to his fouls. By voicing that opinion, I’m definitely inviting someone to make a counter argument, or just play the devil’s advocate even if they don’t buy it themselves. I still think Nate is a great coach, and I’d probably only take three or four over him in the entire league. That doesn’t mean I think Blake should get so much run while Rudy rots on the bench.
That said, this is as negative as its been around here in a while and its really not that bad. There has never been any serious or sustained calls for anyone to get fired or traded, and any fan post about why so-and-so shouldn’t get so many minutes is followed like clockwork by a so-and-so appreciation thread that gets even more recs.
good post
I too feel the amount of negativity on the site has reached an uncomfortable level. I used to enjoy going through the fanposts and seeing the different perspectives brought about by Trail Blazer fans. Last week, on a couple of occasions, every fanpost was negative and borderline hurtful. The only exception being the JD and a semi-OT fanpost about bad hair-do’s in the league, which almost felt brought up to counter some of the blatant negativity with some timely humor.
In a way it is cyclical, in that it really gets bad when the team is not playing well and seems to disappear when the rout is on. The game-day threads have been equally vitriolic to dispensing player hate and couch-coaching.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion. But it really takes the fun out of it when the comments is “that guy SUCKS” and the opinion is either not backed up or reasoned out with a follow-up “SUCKS” rant.
Dogs have Owners, Cats have Staff.
Correct.
In a way it is cyclical, in that it really gets bad when the team is not playing well and seems to disappear when the rout is on.
It’s like tides of the ocean and completely pointless to rail against the high tide when you prefer to go tidepooling during the low.
Enjoy the ocean.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Reminds of one of my favorite scenes...
from Parenthood… Steve Martin… classic… Steve’s family is spinning out of control, and the old lady says..
“Some people like the merry go round… But it just goes round and round… I prefer the roller coaster”…
Bandwagon
Now that the Blazers are winning, there are a lot of Bandwagon fans everywhere.
A lot of them enjoy spouting their mouth off just because they can. It’s not my favorite, but it ends up falling into the category of “if you dont like it, then dont read it” for me. Unfortunately, there is a lot I am not reading lately, and even more I am not replying too. Not like I really did much replying anyway, there are guys here who do make good points and I enjoy reading their comments. Thanks to guys like jscot I dont have to post much anymore and he can be left to “go off” on a few people here and there, although I think even he may be getting worn out by all the dorm room smack talk that seems to be running rampant lately.
We have a great group of moderators around here, unfortunately, you cant expect them to babysit everything that happens here. They arent getting paid to babysit anyway.
"OK, it's going to rain tomorrow. And there is going to be a Greenpeace meeting and hippies are going to be protesting" ~ The Buffet of Goodness on Portland
I can avoid reading a post that I don't like, no problem. The problem is that high levels of
spew will drive away the writers of posts whose work I do like to read.
It’s like graffiti and broken windows, when you see enough of them, the neighborhood is going downhill and no amount of saying “if you don’t like them, don’t look at them” will keep the kind of neighbors you want to have from selling their house.
I like the analogy
However, if I were in a place where I could just pick up a paint brush and put a clean coat of paint over said graffiti and make it go away, I would. In this instance me or you as just another poster on the site, we cant. Only the moderators can. The best thing to do in this case is if you turn a blind eye to it and not reply to the whiny immature posts we have been seeing as of late.
Unfortunately handing people the tools to clean up said graffiti ultimately becomes a double edged sword. Dave has held this site to a high standard and is willing to allow people the opportunity to post their thoughts and feelings. Said posts do need to be held to a standard and right now there are people nudging right up to the line and technically they are not over it. Like most sane people, I would like to think people would rather drive in the center of the lane and not with their tires sharing an edge to the doubles in the middle of the road. But there are always going to be the few out there who like to stir up trouble and push the limits… anonymously. Got to love the internet.
Just ignore the trolls. Once they see they are not getting attention, they will go somewhere else where they can feed off other peoples frustration.
"OK, it's going to rain tomorrow. And there is going to be a Greenpeace meeting and hippies are going to be protesting" ~ The Buffet of Goodness on Portland
By golly, there's nothing wrong with this opinion...
“I hate the way Roy is playing”.
Shucks, there are some nights when that is right on the mark.
Cheer if you want to. Or not.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Thanks for your comment timbo...
You are a respected poster here (even with that L*ker thing you got going on) and I appreciate your opinion.
It is the over all weight of the “I hate how Roy is playing type of comment” that takes away from the BE experience for me. One remark of that kind or even one or two threads containing them can be dealt with by avoiding them for better topics if you wish. My frustration has been the shear volume of similiar posts sprouting up from virtually every topic. Game Day Threads, Media Row Reports, Re-Caps… I think that is why the “if you don’t like it, don’t read it” mentality frustrates me so much. If I did that lately there would be very little to read… and “by golly” I like to read Blazer stuff.
GO BLAZERS!!!
We can agree, I think, that more people should write good stuff...
It takes time, it takes effort, but there are plenty of Bedgers and plenty of topics.
Those of you who hate the descent (real or imagined) into mean-spirited griping need to organize a counteroffensive… Right now there’s an inevitable blowback against griping taking place that’s just as shrill and tedious… But even that’s not worth getting worked up over, because it as inevitable and natural as grousing when things are going badly…
The next time you find somebody that takes the time to write a long and thoughtful response in thread, drop them a line and encourage them to expand upon it as a fanpost. This could be especially effective if Dave & Ben take to dropping people quick little emails, I think…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
That was a general, plural "you" as in "you all" — not just Ilikeemail.
Find the thoughtful writers and push them forward.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Agree agree agree
I agree (can you tell?) and have created my own first fanpost on virtually the same subject.
My only disagreement (and you probably meant it this way anyway) is that I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying “I hate the way Roy is playing,” so long as you don’t say “I hate Roy because of the way he’s playing.” And of course it would be nice if a poster didn’t repeat the I hate the way he’s playing comment on EVERY FANPOST AND GAMEDAY THREAD just for the sake of repeating it, even if it’s totally unrelated to the topic, but maybe that’s asking too much. I know it makes it hard to ignore what you don’t want to read about.
Great post
And I agree with much of what you say. The overall tenor of posts and comments has changed a bit over the roughly 16 months I’ve been posting (plus the 2 years prior to that when I was just lurking). More instant judgements and opinions.
But I gues it’s all part of being a fan (which is a contraction of fanatic).
I’m glad when Dave gives us all a gentle reminder, because I too find myself getting a little bit over the top at times.
"I'm a man, but I can change.....if I have to......I guess." - Red Green
PEOPLE!!!!
The war isn’t in here! We can’t be fighting each other! We should be fighting Laker fans!
Seriously, it is the nature of humanity, is it not? Nothing quite unifies people like a common enemy. The early season schedule is short on rivals. I think by the time we get some more Utah/Nuggets/Lakers games under our belt, some of this vitriol will be redirected.
Two points scored by GO’ = "thunderdunk"
One thing that really fanned the natural cycle this time was the schedule and the game results...
1. Expectations were EXTREMELY high coming into the season.
2. There were a couple bad beats, but it was pretty clear visually that the team wasn’t clicking even though wins were racked.
3. The fact that the team was winning made it seem like the ordinary bitter criticism was particularly over-the-top.
I find it really interesting how the PG position seems to generate the most heat — from Jack to Sergio/Bayless to Blake/Miller. I speculate that this is because people subconsciously project themselves into the Blazers’ team, and “ordinary” sized people inevitably see themselves in the role of PGs. Combine this with the fact that Roy is sort of the sacrosanct Superstar of the team that is pretty much above most criticism…
People relate most closely to PGs and thus have particularly strong feelings about the position, I suspect.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Some people are just negative by nature
I tend to try and find the positive most of the time, in anything I do. Sometimes I don’t state it in the most positive manner (“I can’t stand people that don’t appreciate Przybilla’s offensive contributions. GRRRRRRRRR!”) … but yeah, constant negativity gets on my nerves.
The best way to combat that is by continuing to contribute positively and don’t take negativity too seriously. Even Jscot said recently he’s thinking of not posting anymore. That will just make the overall site worse if the best posters decide not to contribute. It’s ALL JSCOT’S FAULT. Ahem. But yes, those negative people do get on my nerves.
Look on the bright side. We could be Clipper fans.
"I'd like to see Nate McMillan stop treating fouls like they are rollover minutes." - Blazer Guy 11/4/09
BTW some of my favorite posters here are kind of negative
…or at least frequently critical. AK, timbo, leeroy, and a couple others…I always read their stuff. I don’t know why but their more critical comments don’t bother me. Actually I’m not sure what happened to timbo because he’s almost never grouchy these days…
"I'd like to see Nate McMillan stop treating fouls like they are rollover minutes." - Blazer Guy 11/4/09
I believe there are a long list of people who beg to differ!
AK and Leeroy are both really good curmudgeons who need to write more.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Don't take things so seriously.
It’s just a game people have diffrent views, some see negatives some see positives. Me personally I see both. This is a place to express your opinion that’s all. If some one is negative about a player that’s there opinion, they have a right to express it wether people agree with it or not. Don’t take it as so hard. I sometimes write on here to express my frustrations, that doesn’t mean I’m not a fan I just write for different reasons. So I hope all can just enjoy this forum and not take things so personally.
by edawg on Nov 24, 2009 12:48 PM PST via mobile reply actions
lets all just get along
I read most of the posts and don’t find that they are really that negative( aside from the titles), my question to you would be: if your not scrutinizing the team, then what is there to talk about? How perfecty they are? everyone on this sight loves the team, but there are always concerns and frustration. where else can you air them out?
There is a HUGE difference in my mind...
…between “scrutinizing the team” and writing things like…
Its like one of those eighties teen movies where the ugly duckling gets a makeover by the popular kid and finds his popularity. Then his head gets too big and he turns into the very monster that had been making his life hell. Roy used to be the plucky underdog. He used to be the unlikely hero. Now he looks like the pretty girl who knows she doesn’t doesn’t have to do much to get what she wants.
and making outside assumptions like…
This team doesn’t feel it was to work any more and that starts with Brandon.
and…
but this is the root of the blazers problem right now. Big contracts, expectation, delusions of grandeur.
…is not the type of discussion I find meaningful. It is pure speculation and reflects negatively on Brandon with out any facts to back it up. The Teen Movie analogy is cute but not pertinent to your case.
Since you posted the quotes above 3 days ago things have already changed regarding line up and rotations. The team played like we hope they always will last night and I certainly didn’t see Brandon or anyone else…
jog up court on the fast break, walk around picks at a tortes pace with one hand out calling for the ball, linger at the other end of the court to argue calls, and worst of all, holding the ball and jacking up fade away jumpers rather than putting his head down and taking it to the rack.
Logically discussing problems or voicing concerns…even if they disagree with my personal opinion…is fine and while you have every right to post “I HATE the way Roy is playing” type posts… I also have the right to disagree with the way you presented your point…and I do.
by Ilikeemall on Nov 24, 2009 2:23 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I don't know. I really like this bit...
Its like one of those eighties teen movies where the ugly duckling gets a makeover by the popular kid and finds his popularity. Then his head gets too big and he turns into the very monster that had been making his life hell. Roy used to be the plucky underdog. He used to be the unlikely hero. Now he looks like the pretty girl who knows she doesn’t doesn’t have to do much to get what she wants.
Is it overstated?
Probably.
Does it contain truth?
Probably.
I felt the same way about Drexler, really — at a certain point he became bigger than the team and then he was gone. At that point, it became really clear that whatever one felt about his attitude, it was better that he was ON the team rather than off it…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
It may be good theater...
…but it’s not good and concise criticism in my book.
I’m a homer (surprise!!!) and while this is very imaginative and kinda Dave like in an artsy fartsy way it seem like something better said about a hated opponent (don’t say the guy in purple…remember timbo’s a L*ker fan) then about my homer hero Brandon ,#7, Roy.
I feel yr taking it out of context
the point of everything I wrote was that it didn’t look, TO ME,( and I’ve watched all 16 games) that roy was playing as hard as I have seen in the past and that it was reflected in the way others were playing. That it looked ,TO ME, like roy and the whole team forgot how hard and scrappy they played last season.I guess you didn’t get the implied “TO ME”.
I Respect that...
but it sounded like…TO ME… you were ridiculing Brandon. If you said it in the kind of words you use here it would have felt different but comparing him to the “pretty girl” just hits me wrong and I think it is very unlikey I am taking it out of context.
Please understand this isn’t personal and I am not claiming that your way is wrong and mine is right. I just don’t care for the “he’s playing like a sissy” feel your post had.
I’ve watched the same 16 games you have and I don’t have the same perception. But I can admit I don’t look for faults and that I may be wearing my Rose Garden colored glasses.
Hey likee...
As one who has traded jabs with you in the past, I appreciate your post.
If I could sum up the totality of my posts, it would be: I’m frustrated that we haven’t (yet – perhaps until last nights game) seemed to get the most out of the incredible talent KP has assembled.
And while I appreciate the contributions that Blake, Roy and others have made to bring us out of the Jail Blazer era… I guess I’m a little more of a “what have you done for me lately” kind of guy…
To me, it’s just so obvious that a Miller-led fast breaking, passing to Oden team is superior to last year’s squad, that at times I lose it…
As I said in one of my earlier posts, I agree that I’ve been too negative lately, and too personal, and will moderate my posts appropriately.. I hope those that were turned off will hang around long enough to enjoy all the good times ahead.
Thank You Very Much...
We have traded jabs and I really appreciate your comment and apologize if I ever got out of line with you…
It is safe to say we are both passionate Blazer fans and while we have’t always agreed we both want the same thing… BIG BLAZERS SUCCESS.
Although sometimes people probably think I’m a little too Pie in the Sky optomistic I really think that what is best for the team will evolve and happen and that last night is an indicator of that. That may very well mean Miller at the point and if it does…
GO ANDRE!!!… and
GO BLAZERS!!!
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