Ego, Selfishness, Superstars, and Perspective
by Biddy77 on Nov 22, 2009 7:09 PM PST
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PrintThe subject of Brandon Roy's ego has been coming up a lot over the last 2-3 weeks, and things seem to be at a fever pitch right now. Rather than sit back and smolder, I'm just going to tackle this mess head on, and challenge a few of you to look at the things I'm saying with open minds. I know some of these things may not line up with your own opinions or feelings, but I'm confident when I say that denying some of the following things would be ridiculous and naive.
First off, lets acknowledge one simple, 2 part truth: Brandon Roy is not only our best player, he's a superstar caliber player in the NBA.
10th in the league in scoring despite playing for the slowest paced team in the league last year. 7th highest PER in the league, and 6th highest Roland Rating (a metric combining PER and +/-). 4th highest Offensive Rating, 3rd highest Offensive Win Shares, 6th highest total Win Shares, 9th in MVP voting, a top 3 overall 4th Q performer, number 7 on last season's 'Clutch Stats' list (82games), 17th highest (and best non-PG) in assist-to-turnover ratio... and all of this while averaging 1.9 turnovers per game in total. To put this into perspective, the guy has been playing at a level that puts him right behind your top 3 type of guys-- LeBron, Kobe, and Wade-- and in many cases, the gap isn't as wide as most SportsCenter fans want to admit.
For a matter of broader perspective, consider that production like that over the course of 5-7 seasons often turns into Hall of Fame chatter.
The reason I'm bringing this up is simple. I challenge all of you to count the number of guys as good as Roy who haven't had a level of confidence which, at the very least, bordered on arrogance. Guys who perform the way he does... guys who walk out onto the court with less than 10 seconds on the clock and want the ball in their hands-- have to believe within themselves that they are THE best guy to have the ball in their hands. There's no room for self doubt. Now... to do this CONSISTENTLY, and with the regularity with which Roy had to do it last season, you not only have to be able to say, "I can do this."-- you have to be comfortable saying, "if I don't get it, it's a fluke, and I'll get it next time"-- and believe it.
This confidence is a lot of what separates guys like Bird, Jordan, Magic, Kobe, etc from other guys who would have been their peers. It's a big part of what makes one guy Michael Jordan, and another guy Clyde Drexler. While both were truly great, one of them was consistently able to step up and take huge shots, hit or miss, and walk away from whatever happened with the unswerving faith in his own ability to produce the next time that type of situation came up.
Now, lets look a little deeper, and consider what those crucial moments late in games typically look like for young Jordans, Kobes, etc... 9 times out of 10, when a crucial possession comes around, those guys wanted the SHOT. They went out there thinking, "I'm the right guy to take this shot."-- and they didn't want to accept until later in their careers that, while they may have been the right guy to make the play, they weren't always the right guy for the shot. At this stage of his career, we've already seen Roy show a willingness to be the guy making the play, but also displaying an understanding that someone else might be the right guy for the shot. We've seen him attract doubles and kick out to Trout repeatedly, as well as Blake, Rudy, and LMA-- and even make dump-offs to Joel or Greg in late game situations and on crucial possessions. He isn't trying to win by himself-- he's trying to help the team win.
Next point: If your star player doesn't want to be The Man, you're in trouble. See: Rasheed Wallace. Luckily, this rarely happens. More often than not, as we all know, guys who have no business being The Man feel like they deserve to be. See: Isaiah Rider.
Here's another thing to consider: How many guys on Roy's level have been asked to take a reduced role to accomodate a less effective player? Admiral Ackbar wants you all to know something about this question:
IT'S A TRAP!!!
We're not talking about taking fewer shots. That isn't the issue here, and it never has been with Roy. He's proven that he isn't a ppg chaser or a committed shot counter. We're talking about top 10 players in the NBA being asked to accept being less involved for the sake of accomodating other guys.
Lets consider this, because I know Kobe and Jordan come up a lot in this type of discussion... each guy eventually found increased success by being willing to trust teammates. Just about everyone knows and understands that on the most superficial level, but what really changed? Basically, shot count. If you check their Usage%, they didn't get used any less when they started winning. In fact, they were both still top 3 in the NBA while winning championships. It begs to be pointed out that despite being a top 10 player in the league, Roy's usage% hasn't ever cracked the top 10.
During their evolutions, both Jordan and Kobe continued to touch the ball and be involved in plays virtually every time up court.
Star players need to be involved, and not just to keep them happy. There's a lot of talk about making defenses move, and any coach in the league is painfully aware that the most consistent way to make the defense move is to put their star player in an advantageous situation and put the ball in his hands. Sometimes it's a double running out as soon as the star gets a pass. Sometimes it's one or more guys making a big shift toward the strong side. Other times, there's a delay or trigger required, then a double streaks over (common triggers for Roy: getting within 15 feet, making the first dribble, making the first step/jab step toward the bucket, catching the ball in the post-- depending on the opposing coach). No matter what it is, you are almost never going to see a star player left with a single defender on him for more than a very brief moment. This simple fact is why everybody wants a star. Lots of guys can score, but only a select few are so good that they truly demand a double team.
Lets talk about Roy suggesting that other guys should make sacrifices...
We're not talking about a primadonna or an undeserving player with an out-of-control ego. We're definitely not talking about a guy who does't trust his teammates, or a guy who isn't willing to use them. We're talking about a guy who continually praises LMA, Blake, Rudy, and yes, even Oden, and who has repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to give up his own FGA for them to take shots. We're talking about a guy who was on camera laughing and having fun during the 4th Q of a game in which he scored 2 points, took fewer than 8 shots, and dished out 8 assists (...and I wish we tracked 'hockey assists'...).
This is a guy who has a history of being a team-first player saying, "Use me."
People should be praising Roy right now, because this type of assertiveness is the type you need from a championship team's star player. Pick the best offensive player from any NBA championship team over the past 30 years and try to tell me he didn't want to see the ball every time up court. From Chauncey Billups to Jordan, every one of those guys would tell you in no uncertain terms that they needed to be involved virtually every time up court, and should play their natural position-- and they'd have been RIGHT.
Just for fun, a link to last year's league leaders at basketball-reference.com. Scroll down and take a look at the Usage% section, and note the gap between the top guys and Roy. You may notice how little the Cavs and Lakers suffered by using their stars so heavily, or that the Spurs had two guys (one of them being number 4 on the list!) with higher usage% than Roy. What you should be recognizing when you see this is that cutting Roy out or moving him out of position isn't the answer to increasing our playoff performance. Instead, we should be looking for new ways to help other guys score, without giving away what he already gives us.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2009_leaders.html
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i'm a sheep and i'm rec'n this before i read it
cuz it got a +92!!!… it must be good
...and that's a good thing
by In Walks Rudy on Nov 22, 2009 7:23 PM PST up reply actions
I like it
add an Ackbar photo and you’re golden
"Your best?!?!! Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and &^%@ the prom queen"
2008 Civil War: Oregon 65 - Oregon State 38
Thanks
I like your perspective on this. Completely agree.
Thanks
…for the feedback, and the sweet Ackbar photo!
Thank you
We really needed this
Mark my words... Dante Cunningham will be an all star
This is good stuff and worthy of all the recs it can get. It's nice to see
something like this in the sidebar, it happens so rarely lately.
"Aneurysm".
When Outlaw wins a game on a last-second shot, it’s called an "annthefaneurysm". QualityPie
by annthefan on Nov 22, 2009 9:05 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
yeah I agree a lot of plainly bad fanposts going around lately
rec.
Garden Variety Internet Denizen
WORD UP.STAY.FRESCO
I think it started off as a joke
“B-Roy is selfish”
And then a couple of people took that seriously and it’s out of control. Seriously… Roy is the man, everyone else is a scrub (cept Oden) and figure out how to play with those two players.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
"I told Pau the Lakers never win here in Portland; I think it's great." -- Rudy Fernandez
I would have included LMA
but dang he’s vanished on us.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
"I told Pau the Lakers never win here in Portland; I think it's great." -- Rudy Fernandez
Thank you
I was getting tired of all the whining here. Honestly, I think there are some people who would still complain if the Blazers went 82-0. Brandon has shown nothing but class in the three years he’s played in Portland. He’s got a chance to be the greatest Blazer of all time, yet people still can’t be happy with that.
"I been ridin' the midnight train, got ice water in my veins." -Bob Dylan
"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice
No Doubt
If the Blazer went 82-0, fans would complain about not blowing out teams, about scrubs not getting in, about their favorite player sitting while the scrub was in. It’s just what fans do.
Or else about Nate's tie being crooked or something
"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5
Don't forget Ben and Dave
They’d rip on those guys for not ripping the players or coaches. The would also complain about the jersey contest and Ben not taking enough photos of shoes.
Or too many photos of shoes
There’s so many things to complain about when you really are looking for them.
"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5
The sad part is
Roy could be on the court with Andre Miller and still touch the ball on virtually every offensive possession…and over time the two of them would find ways to get easier baskets for each other and their teammates
but that’s not how it’s going to happen, at least not any time soon…because of Nate’s system and Brandon’s comfort level with Steve Blake
Bird was interviewed by Dan Patrick last week, and Larry said that most of his teammates didn’t want to take the “last” shot when the team was down by 1. (If the score was tied, they’d be more willing, because it wasn’t “life or death”) Bird said that if he was smothered he’d look for Dennis Johnson, because he knew DJ had the intestinal fortitude to take that game-deciding shot. Perhaps Roy feels the same way about Blake, and Travis? Perhaps, he shouldn’t…especially when the team is back in the playoffs
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Nov 22, 2009 10:36 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
That's kind of the thing, though
Miller can’t do what Blake does best for the team. Hit outside shots off Roy penetrations.
Miller might be better as a starter. He might. Right now, that’s simply not the case. Not sure why we assume he’d get there when we’re not seeing any signs of it now.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
I move that we have another player who arguably as good or better than Brandon at taking the last shot
and his name is Rudy Fernandez. That is the guy Brandon should look for at the end…not Blake…
All hail Brandon but our continuing underuse of Rudy is the biggest crime of the current regime.
Look, what used to set our guy (brandon) apart from the "bad guys" (kobe) was his ego
Thats what made him so special! A superstar who isn’t an A hole, someone the entire fan base could get behind and say, see, he’s DIFFERENT.
its not that we don’t want him to take over games, to take the most shots, or even get fired up in the huddle. I just never thought I’d see the day when Brandon Roy would let his attitude affect his play on the court like it has this year. Nor did I expect him to throw even a new teammate under the bus in the media like he has.
I guess I’m just more surprised than some of you. Maybe you were just waiting for Brandon to become a mini kobe this whole time. I just thought he was gonna be different.
The Blazers as a whole are far more like my wife than like me in the sense of their physicality on defense.
-Dave
by chrischa on Nov 22, 2009 10:39 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
He's NOT an A-hole.
…and he hasn’t turned into a mini-Kobe.
Lets look at it in these terms… I’m not sure if you’re a parent or not, but if you aren’t, imagine that you are for a moment. Here’s a scenario: It’s the 4th of July, and you’ve just picked up some REALLY BIG FIREWORKS. Your 13 year old says, “let me do those ones!” Your response, “I should probably do this.”
Are you being an A-hole, or just stating the fact of the matter?
Lets say your spouse says, “Hey, we should let the 13 year old do it.”, and you say, “I think it’s a better idea to do it this way. I’ll handle it.” Did you throw the 13 year old under the bus? Not really.
You simply state something which you believe to be true, and you do so because you believe strongly that this is the best way to do it.
The problem is that people are programmed to view anyone who expresses the view that they are the best option as a self-centered person. For example, we all know that Roy is the best player on the team— by a LOT— but if he ever actually came out and said, “I’m the best player on the team, and it isn’t even close— and you all know it.”, people would be running him out of town.
To cast this in yet another light, consider that Roy is very close with just about everyone on the team on a personal level— and he’s REALLY good buddies with guys like Trout, Webster (since they were kids), and LMA. He’s been aggressively looking to get all those guys involved since day 1. Part of his frustration during all of this is that those guys aren’t producing as much or playing as well— and he wants to help rectify that.
just my .02, of course.
by Biddy77 on Nov 22, 2009 10:53 PM PST up reply actions 10 recs
I don't have anything against Brandon.
I don’t think people see Roy as a jerk or totally self-centered. I think he’s just being inflexible in learning how to approach the game differently, which Kobe and Lebron have had to do to get to the level that they are.
I am certainly not an advocate for removing the ball from Brandon’s hands. I wouldn’t mind involving him in more plays even. The thing I see as a problem is that Miller is perfectly capable of getting him and anyone else the ball anywhere on the court that they want it. Brandon isn’t the kind of passer and distributor that Miller is. Driving and kicking is one thing, and that’s great. They can both do that pretty much equally well, but passes into the post to Oden, lob passes to Oden and Aldridge, advancing the ball on a fast break: These are all crucial to the growth and success of the team, and Brandon simply isn’t the best man on the roster for the job unless you want the team to remain dead-last in pace.
I was ecstatic when Roy started talking about learning to play without the ball and work to get open to receive the pass in the flow of the offense, because to me it meant that he’d be able to be more affective offensively without having the same level of physical demands night in and night out. This is a huge concern from my perspective because Brandon’s style of play is going to be tough on his body and his knees aren’t going to last if he has to continue to be the only one driving to the basket into the teeth of the defense and ending up on the floor a significant amount of the time.
Simply because he’s capable of controlling the offense and creating at that level doesn’t mean he needs to control it constantly in order to stay at that level.
"She turned me into a newt!
A newt?
...I got better."
Your issue is the offensive system, not Brandon, I suspect
We played 9 games with Miller starting, and I wasn’t seeing Brandon get any more easy shots than he’s ever had.
If Brandon had been getting 3-4 easy shots a game, or consistently getting the ball in great position to operate, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5
by jscot on Nov 23, 2009 9:01 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Miller not doing well at what he's supposed to be great
should be an issue for concern.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
Is it Miller or is it Nate's offense?
I don’t actually know.
Miller historically is a slow starter.
"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5
The other side of that
is that it has taken Roy a good three years to learn how to be the man with the ball in his hands most of the time, with all the inherent responsibility. Now he has to stop?
I also am inclined to reject the idea that Kobe and LeBron had to learn how to play with others. When things go bad in LA Kobe takes the ball and goes to work. When things go bad in Cleveland LeBron takes the ball and goes to work. That is what Brandon did for us last year and it was all good. I think that is good for the team this year as well. Roy has Oden (finally) and Aldridge inside and midrange to take the pressure off for much of the game but Roy is the man that keeps the ship right when it is rocking.
A lot of basketball left to be played. I think the team will figure it out.
It wasn't the first time I'd been kicked in the cherries and called a rat by a woman, but it was the first time I didn't mind.
by shenanigans on Nov 23, 2009 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
Temporary fix
I think Roy just needs to learn to work with Miller. We are not going to win a chip with Blake as PG and he needs to learn to adjust so it wont be the same problem in the future.
by ODEN on a stick on Nov 23, 2009 12:11 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Biddy77, thank you
This is much needed perspective. I just haven’t understood the level of Brandon-criticism, or of Nate-hate.
I know, I know .. fans are “supposed to have the right” to say anything they want. But there should also be thoughtfulness and responsibility.
Anyway, I agree with you. So when you think we need to hear it, keep doing it!
Best post I have read in a long time.
Thanks for putting this together.
Something else to consider, most of the people out there who decide to post their feelings are the same people you would normally not want to listen to anyway. I would sit and have a conversation with you any day if what you are writing says anything about the person you are.
If I could buy you a round I would. Cheers!
"OK, it's going to rain tomorrow. And there is going to be a Greenpeace meeting and hippies are going to be protesting" ~ The Buffet of Goodness on Portland
This is perhaps the best FanPost I've seen here in the last year,
and it couldn’t be more timely for me. A couple of hours ago I had almost decided to stop reading BE for 2 or 3 weeks just so I could fully enjoy the Blazers experience again. (Yeah, I know it would probably improve some people’s experience if I quit posting comments for at least that long.)
I understand the Nate bashing because that comes with his job, and coaches are going to make mistakes and change their minds about strategy or the best way to handle players. (Although it seems ridiculous to me that some fans are so certain they know more about NBA coaching and handling players than a guy that has coached over 750 NBA games and played in almost 900 NBA games).
And I can understand the differences of opinion about Blake vs Miller starting and why that has so many people upset.
But I can’t believe the attacks on Roy when you consider where this franchise would be today without him being here the last 3 years, and where it will not be in the future without him.
So thanks again for some well expressed perspective on who Brandon is and what he means to the future of this team. This gives me the strength to “play through the pain” for a while longer.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Nov 23, 2009 3:04 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
Miller is better for the team
Roy is being selfish. It is obvious that Blake better compliments Roy. However, it is also obvious that Miller better compliments Oden and LMA. Do you really believe if you asked Oden and LMA who they pefered to be the starting PG that they would choose Blake?
We as Blazers fans should be rooting for the player that makes the TEAM better, not who makes ROY better. We are not going to win a championship if all we do is allow Roy to penetrate and dish to Blake. LMA and Oden have to establish themselves as offensive forces and that will happen faster if Miller is the starting PG.
Are you aware that...
Roy, LMA, Trout, Blake, and Rudy are each scoring less, and getting fewer attempts this season than last?
That of those, all but LMA are also shooting a lower percentage?
That our Offensive Rating is down from 1st last season to 14th this season?
That Oden’s scoring this season is up only 1.5 points on 1.3 more FGA than last year?
If you factor in FTA, you’ll see that Miller currently has the third highest scoring attempts average per game for us this year— more than Oden, Rudy, Trout, or Blake— despite shooting 40% from the floor, and .133 from ‘3’. With his 3% and 1.0 3PA/game average, he’s producing .399 points per 10 attempts from ‘3’, which is a hair worse than shooting 20% from ‘2’.
What I’d challenge you to notice is that Miller has actually diminished scoring opportunities and efficacy for just about everyone, and that Oden’s increased production has had far more to do with Oden than Miller.
Miller is better for Miller. Roy is better than the team.
by Biddy77 on Nov 23, 2009 5:55 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Are you aware
That Miller has never been given the opportunity to be the true PG. Why was there a need to go to a three guard lineup? Why not have a lineup of Miller/Roy/Webster/LMA/ and Oden? IMO, it is because coach did not want to piss Roy off by benching Blake like he should have done. Miller has shown over his career that he can distribute the ball to EVERYONE. If Roy wants to be the PG, let him play with Rudy. Why continue to have Blake start when we KNOW he is not the answer?
Why not give the lineup of Miller/Roy/Webster/LMA/Oden a chance to develop. We already know that Blake is not the answer at starting PG. The Rockets proved that. I want someone to prove that having Blake starting over Miller helps anyone but Roy. Roy needs to learn how to play without the ball. Get out of his precious comfort zone. It would make him and the TEAM better.
No,
Miller was the actual, primary handler while we ran the 3 guard line up, and has had the ball in his hands as such for most of his time on the court. Blake and Roy have moved out of position, Miller has been a PG all along. In fact, he has not only had the ball, he’s been doing more play calling than Blake or Roy did last year. This has all been discussed a bit by the coaches.
The ‘3 guard line up’ wasn’t an attempt at 3 facilitators. It was still pg, sg, sf— just with three guys who are natural guards at those spots.
by Biddy77 on Nov 23, 2009 8:49 AM PST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Where'd you come from?
You and all your thinkingness. Stop it before it catches on and we have a rash of thoughtful comments.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
by hobobob on Nov 23, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
They are getting fewer attempts because Nate won't let them get comfortable by settling on a rotation
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Nov 23, 2009 6:49 AM PST up reply actions
That doesn't make sense.
The possessions are there, the offensive boards are still coming, even the tempo is (slightly) up…
The shots are there… But they aren’t quality looks for these key guys. Miller is siphoning off some, and others are lower quality looks, which guys aren’t converting as well. Our top 3 scorers from last year are ALL scoring less, and all of them are used to wild rotations.
by Biddy77 on Nov 23, 2009 8:55 AM PST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
And another false assumption bights the light
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
I sometimes wonder...
…if people are watching the same game as I am. I’ve got high hopes for Andre Miller, but I’m not ready to throw Blake under the bus to get Miller more 3 for 11 shooting nights (I think Miller had three of those nights in a row!!). I agree Miller is a great point guard, but I don’t see him as being a better fit in the starting lineup … yet. Opposing teams feel free to leave Miller wide open for his midrange (or further) shots which, USUALLY, he misses – that means that they can double our more efficient scorers. How often do teams leave Blake open for the three? Never if they can help it. What does that do for our inside game? It makes defenders watch the perimeter, rather than hassle our inside scorers.
Miller may be the point guard of our near future, but right now, teams feel free to let our POINT guard shoot his bricks (why aren’t all those missed shots assists instead?) That being said, I am very happy we got Miller. But, despite all of the Blake bashing that goes on on this site, I’ll take Blake’s deadly long-range shot and efficiency (and ASSISTS!) over Miller’s supposed superiority and 3 for 11 shooting, anyday. When Miller learns to recognize his off-shooting nights and so puts more emphasis on ASSISTS – on those nights – then maybe I’ll be ready to put in with the Miller-as-starter crowd.
Miller is a fine player, still getting used to his new team. But, all you people bashing Blake, I swear, for the most part, you are watching a different game than the one I’m seeing. But, of course, I’m just a lowly (and under-educated) amateur…
by Igot D. Jones on Nov 23, 2009 8:23 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Really, same games?
I agree that the Roy bashing is silly, the guy is an unreal player, sometimes I wish he would take double the shots that he takes, but he will not win by himself.
Miller is getting more points, more assists, more rebounds on less minutes, shoots better from anywhere but three point range (but he took only 14 three’s the entire season to Blake’s 73 three’s), so USUALLY he misses less than Blake. And let’s not even talk about these two over their entire careers. And Blake is terrible in the 4th, one of the worst decision maker amongst NPA starting PG’s.
Wondering who is watching what game…
The reason most are getting fewer attempts is that they're playing less
Outlaw is actually getting more FGA/min, while the rest of the guys are down roughly 1 attempt per 36 minutes, which is hardly a travesty of nature when you consider that Oden is playing more and shooting more (at a very high efficiency) and Martell is shooting more than Nic did last year. Sure, Miller is contributing to part of it, but saying that Miller is decreasing scoring opportunities for everyone else significantly is just ridiculous.
As to our drop in efficiency, the biggest reason for that has to be one Brandon Roy, who, for whatever reason, has been MUCH less efficient than last year despite having a similar usage. Part of this probably has to do with integrating with Andre, but I’d guess not picking up a basketball for 3 months probably had more to do with since he hasn’t looked particularly in sync whether Andre is on the court or not.
Miller
Certainly hasn’t helped. Even if we’re ok with the drop in shots—which isn’t huge—there’s also the matter of percentages being down almost accross the board, and the fact that Miller has been horribly inefficient.
This has happened while Miller has been the primary playmaker, and has been calling many of the plays.
We can’t pretend that this ISN’T significant.
We’re talking about roughly 10% of our season, during one of the easiest stretches of the year, against terrible defensive teams… and efficiency is down. During this stretch, Miller has had the ball, and has called many of the plays. It is what it is.
by Biddy77 on Nov 23, 2009 11:09 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Like I said
Roy has been iffy whether Miller is on the court or off, pinning that on him is ridiculous. Rudy is shooting a higher TS% this year, as are Oden and LMA.
If you look at TS%, a real measure of how efficiently our guys have been scoring, every one is roughly the same except for Joel (much worse), Brandon (slightly worse), Steve (slightly more worse), Outlaw (much worse), and Oden (much better). LMA and Rudy are slightly above where they were last year, although realistically not enough to be considered statistically significant (Bayless’s is also way up, but he hasn’t really played enough to matter here). Przybila and Blake’s declines would be expected, given that both would be expected to play fewer minutes picking up Roy and LaMarcus’s scraps with Andre and Oden this year, but I don’t see how you can blame Andre for two primarily isolation players not shooting as well.
We’re a team consisting of a lot of slow starters right now which probably explains the lion’s share of why our efficiency is down. LaMarcus is generally awful early, Brandon was shooting 46% through November last year and has been even worse this year. Combine that with the fact that every single player other than LaMarcus is turning it over at a higher rate than last year (is Andre making all of their passes and catches, too?), and attributing our offense’s decline entire to Andre, which you’re basically doing, is unfair and much too simple an explanation.
by Royster on Nov 23, 2009 11:36 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
On the subject of slow starts...
We were among the most efficient offensive teams in the league last year, even at the start of the season— with the same slow-starters. In fact, this was true despite the fact that our opening 26 game stretch was statistically (based on opponent win% from the prior season) the hardest such stretch in NBA history. Noteworthy: this 26 game stretch took us through November, and into early December.
So… despite the same ‘slow-starters’ last year, with Rudy, Oden, and Batum playing significant roles as rookies, and against a schedule so tough it actually got mentioned multiple times on-air during Blazer games (not just by the locals— the ESPN guys mentioned it, as well), we were more efficient than we have been this year.
With Miller having been the primary playmaker, as well as calling many of the plays, we can’t act as though he doesn’t own a significant portion of the responsibility.
We were?
Unless you’ve gone through the season splits for every team in the NBA for last year and compared them, or found some database that has them nicely laid out, I don’t remember that being the case at all. Playing the “who remembers what” game isn’t a valid argument, but if you can produce some efficiency splits, I’m all ears.
And the “primary playmaker” argument works for roughly 50% of the games, so again, attributing this massive chunk of it to him is unfair.
Also, just to keep this in perspective
I agree with your premise in the OP about keeping things in perspective and that Brandon Roy hasn’t suddenly morphed in Ricky Davis here, I just think you’re assigning too much of the blame for our slow start to Andre.
I’m of the mind that both Roy and Dre anre getting unfairly maligned depending on who you’re reading. Dre’s been iffy in the early going, but Roy’s been no better, relatively, and I just think you’re giving him a bit too much of a pass here for his role in our struggles.
I still love Brandon.
But Miller should be starting and playing 30 minutes a game. Not Blake. And his inability to be open to the idea is driving me crazy.
Start Miller. Trade Steve Blake.
Part of the reason Brandon put up such numbers is because he handled the ball so much
Also because he was our only true scorer for awhile. Now that is not needed as much ans Brandon is struggling to find other ways to contribute. A superstar would find those ways, a second-tier guy whines about it.
It remains to be seen which Brandon is.
I don’t get why you guys think you owe Brandon so much. He’s a piece, not the whole.
Blazer Fan
Brandon Roy has been the man for so long that people aren't willing to consider him anything else other than automatic, unwavering, superstar.
And Brandon is pretty far behind Kobe, Wade and LeBron. Brandon Roy plays absolutely no defense whatsoever. Superstars get it done on both sides of the ball, stars only manage it on one side and I can guarantee you it’s not the side that’s truly needed.
#88 > #23 > #25
Updated for latest line-up:
#5 > #2
I disagree.
Roy does play defense, he is not a lock down type defender, and he has his mental lapses but he plays hard at both ends of the court. He can improve his defense and take it to another level, and I wish he would focus on that vs focusing on Miller.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
Roy is a lazy defender who doesn't fight through screens, does not chase his man, plays little help defense and what is even worse is the fact that he is the leader.
He was blowing hot air when he talked about committing to defense at the start of the year, that is not what you want from your supposed number one. Set the example.
#88 > #23 > #25
Updated for latest line-up:
#5 > #2
Roy is frequently lazy on D
I, too, wish he would focus on that end.
I am still astonished when he leaves his teammates shorthanded while he fusses over a missed layup (either whining at the ref, or just being pouty and frustrated). Do other “superstars” really walk/trot back to the defensive end with the ball in play? Cause I’ve seen Brandon do that on multiple occasions this year.
"The only 'Advanced Metric' that matters is what you see with your eyes." -Timbo, Nov., 2009.
"I don’t get why you guys think you owe Brandon so much."
32,41,54
"And in the end
The love you take
Is equal to the love you make." -The Beatles
by 92wastheyear on Nov 23, 2009 8:19 AM PST up reply actions
This is the best post I've ever read anywhere...
This is an amazing post. After reading all the blasting of Brandon here and just scratching my head the last day or so, it is great to see someone use facts to make the point I was thinking but didn’t articulate very well.
I think many here forget just how unselfish Brandon is and how much he is responsible for making Portland a top 8 NBA team going into this season for the most part by being unselfish.
I feel comfortable when Brandon has the ball in his hands and I feel less comfortable when it is in others’ hands; especially in the 4th quarter. And your post articulated why I should feel that way using facts and historical numbers.
Thanks! and Great Job!
Brandon roy is the product of being the verybest player on a developing talented roster with a good coach leading the way up until the point
where the talent of the supporting cast started to materialize and THEN Brandon started to kind of suck and pout and sabotage the starting of the better pointguard, AND not allow the 3 guard line up (read the insertion of rudy fernandez into the starting line up) to suceed.
Brandon Roy is not K*be Bryant, He is not Duane Wade, he’ll never be able to pull off the physically impossible preformances those 2 are able to do, Brandon is only able to take advantage of what he is given and he is very good at that… I doubt he’ll ever do better than he has already unless our team sucks worse than it has over the past 3 years.
^^ that’s how you start a riot.
but yeah it’s kinda true.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
selfish
"There are a few teams you have to watch out for in the fourth quarter."
"Yeah, but Portland definitely is not one of them."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters at the end of the third quarter with the Hornets leading 74-59. Portland later ends up winning 97-89.
"They don't mind him shooting that shot at all. Rudy Fernandez is not that great of a 3pt shooter."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters right after a Rudy Fernandez missed 3pter. Rudy Fernandez finished the game with three 3pters on six attempts.
by Tofu Anonymous on Nov 23, 2009 10:25 AM PST reply actions
Good work. Seriously good work.
The lack of critical thought demonstrated by the anti-Roy sentiments makes me think dialectics are all but inevitable. If this stops nothing, we may as well just say good night and enjoy our dreams.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
I'll chime in here too with the same message.
This is one of the best, most needed side bar posts of the season. Thank you for your outstanding presentation of what many of us have been thinking.
Biddy77 for king!
If this Blazer team doesn't light your fire, then your wood is wet!
Careful, now
You were fine until that last line….
:)
"Woulda, Coulda, Mighta and Shoulda – the Four Horsemen of the Procrastocalypse" - Red-5
,,,oops, sorry Jscot. I'm now embarrassed.
For a brief moment I overlooked how a King could be seen as a little too much competition for a ruler of the world. I’ll make it up to you. Give you a rec or something.
If this Blazer team doesn't light your fire, then your wood is wet!
Great post - but I'm not totally on board with Brandon's actions here
This is an excellent post. And I agree, when it’s winning time, B Roy is the man I want taking the shot or making these happen for GO, LMA, Rudy, and the rest of the squad. But his handling of the addition of Andre Miller/direct quotes in the post-game article Quick wrote are troubling to me.
“I feel like we tried it (the three-guard lineup), and you could say it worked at times, but me sacrificing hurt the team, so it should get back to me playing full-out and getting some other guys in other areas to sacrifice a little bit,” Roy said.
“This team is going to go off my pulse,” Roy said. “Even if I’m smiling and trying to make it work, if I seem like I’m not totally comfortable, then Martell won’t be. And Rudy (Fernandez) will look like he’s in a funk. And L.A. (Aldridge) will look like he’s in a funk. They have been playing with me for a couple years and if I’m going well, they have more confidence.”
Now I agree, any three guard lineup with Brandon covering a SF is not a recipe for long term success. And if Miller and Roy are going to play together, you need someone spreading the floor. That doesn’t need to be Steve Blake, as I think either Martell (my choice to start because he’s a 3 and can guard the position) or Rudy can fill that role. Andre Miller can alleviate ball handling pressure, create shots for himself or others, and most importantly in my view, looks to get Greg Oden and LMA involved in the offense.
Now, Miller and Roy could be great together, or maybe it doesn’t work out – especially if Martell isn’t consistent on the offensive end, because if that happens you’re asking Brandon to guard bigger, stronger players, which will wear him down. The problem I have is the quotes above. Brandon seems like a man whose mind is made up on the issue of Miller starting. Andre Miller may not be the warmest and fuzziest of personalities, but he isn’t Z Bo either. Brandon does not need to crack the whip through the media to bring Miller in line. Further, this has to make you wonder if Brandon will bristle as GO’s development demands a greater role in the offensive scheme. I don’t think GO will be a Shaq type offensive force, nor will Brandon be Kobe’s equal, but the thought of a top 5 wing player and the top (or 2) big man in the game working together without the ego problems LA’s duo had is a recipe for rings. These comments give me the some slight pause as to the feasibility of that dream.
Now, while a Laker fan would point to the destruction of the Bling Dynasty or a Denver fan would pop in a copy of "Stop Snitching" if they wanted to show Blazer fans what really happens when "superstar ego" arrives, these comments are not reflective of the Brandon Roy the public has seen as the leader of this team. As you point out, every great player has an ego/belief that they can get it done when it needs to happen – that’s what makes them great. The problem, as I see it, is if Brandon truly believes that the "Roy takes on the world" offense will get it done, this team is in for a few years of playoff exits along the lines of the first set of Jordan era Bulls. There will be regular season success and they may even win a series or two. But when the rubber hits the road in the playoffs, they will come up short.
Again, I agree with your basic premise – Brandon Roy is the straw that stirs the drink on this team. If it comes down to a "Roy vs. Miller" situation, Andre goes. However, it doesn’t need to be that way. And right now, the party I see being stubborn (not selfish – selfish would be "nobody else but me"; this is more a stubborn "I can do this, just give it more time" deal from my vantage point) is Brandon. I think B Roy’s amazing success so far, both as a player and the face of the franchise, have blinded some fans (myself included) to the fact that he is still a young guy in the sense of his NBA career. And to be clear, Brandon Roy is one of the guys who rescued this franchise from the disaster that preceded his arrival. But sometimes even great leaders have to learn a thing or two. Unfortunately, we may be going through such a phase with Brandon and this team. In a perfect world, Miller will embrace his bench role and excel, or Nate – if he sees it as I do – will do the hardest thing any great NBA coach can do, and bucks the wishes of his star while not losing him or the team (in my view, this is what made Phil the legend he is now, rather than Doug Collins or Kevin Loughery, who couldn’t get Jordan to buy in). I have faith that these guys will get it right in the end, it just may take a little longer than we want.
"man, steve blake is clutch *dead*" - Ben Golliver on Twitter
by blazeraddict on Nov 23, 2009 4:26 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
As somebody who I'm sure is considered a "Brandon basher"....
Let me say first, nice post. I’m sure most folks who read this were nodding their heads in agreement. Please allow me try to state my contrary opinions in a less confrontational manner.
I’ve watched the NBA for more than 30 years. During that time, I’ve developed what I believe is a decent understanding of championship caliber teams. These teams have the following traits:
1) Awesome team D. Defense wins championships.
2) An ability to generate easy baskets, typically by running a great fast break off all misses, and even off of made shots.
3) A cold-blooded assassin who hits the clutch shot when needed.
4) A dominating inside presence. (Jordan is really the only significant aberration, and this was due to using the triangle offense..)
I believe the Blazers have all four of these pieces (i.e., they have the talent on the roster to do all four of these things), and have the opportunity to become a dominating team.
I’ve been frustrated because most posters seem to think that the same things that got us our 54 win season, somehow, magically, with just another year of experience doing the same thing, will result in a championship. Many national pundits have said that increasing from good (54) to great (championship) is the toughest hurdle to climb. Typically, there are some fairly major changes that have to happen for a good team to become great.
And I also agree that when we need ONE HOOP – BRoy is a fantastic option for the Blazers. I don’t think he’s selfish (although he needs to learn the effect his public words have, because his recent comments can certainly be interpreted that way).
Looking back at the four “championship attributes”, the Blazers:
1) Have demonstrated an improving D. Awesome!
2) Have shown NO ability to run an effective break with Blake and Roy in the backcourt.
3) Have the cold-blooded assassin who hits the clutch shot when needed. (Roy)
4) Have not utilized the player who can become a dominating inside presence.
So, the Blazers, with Blake in the starting lineup, currently exhibit two out of the four traits.
My belief is that with Dre in the starting lineup, he, Martell, and LMA can learn to run a very effective fast break.
My belief is that with Dre in the starting lineup, he can begin to feed Greg on a consistent basis. I believe Greg only needs time on the court to become a dominating inside offensive presence. I believe posting Greg, and having him learn how to pass out of the inevitable double teams (or become a 10 dunk per game player), will greatly improve the Blazers offense.
My belief is that if the Blazers MAIN offense results in:
a) ~15-20 fast break points per game
b) 15-20 points by Greg (and about 5 assists per game passing out of the doubles)
c) 15-20 ppg by Brandon, LMA, and Miller
and yet preserves our ability to use Brandon as the late game assassin…
will win the championship we’re all hoping for…
by Visionary2 on Nov 23, 2009 5:17 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Great post
Only thing I’d argue against was that Bulls didn’t have a post presence. They had a heck of a one in Jordan. Points in the paints doesn’t always mean back to the basket kind. Ones off penetration does the same thing. And, Jordan always had that turnaround jumper. It’s just that he never got credited for it until his first comeback, when he was supposed to be older and slower, etc. (I should know growing up Bulls and Blazers fan)
it seems like some posters got the wrong idea with my “start Miler and Rudy” fan post that I hate Roy. That certainly is not true. I lobbied hard for us to draft Roy in the first place and have the posts in other Blazer forums to prove it. It’s just that this team was blessed with Oden and he is our best chance for a bona fide superstar. People here throw around “superstar” tag on Roy so much, but that’s simply not true. He’s an all-star and second tier guy, but superstar should only be attached to guys like LeBron, Wade,CP3, Anthony, Dirk, kobe, and Yao (pre-injury). Like it or not, Roy is a second-level guy with players such as Joe Johnson, Bosh, Amare, and Deron Williams.
You just do not win championships in the NBA without a bona fide superstar, with the ‘04 Pistons being the only exception last 30 years in a case where everything broke right. I don’t like the fact that the organization is coddling Roy like he is one of the elites when he is not, and stifling growth of a guy that can become one of the elites in Oden. (who also is a big man which is much rarer commodity than wings) A big mistake you can make as a franchise is treating your star like an elite player when he is not at that level, although not as big as not treating a superstar with respect he deserves, which is what NO is doing with Paul.
Now, that doesn’t mean Roy can’t become one of the elites. But, given his skill set and his age (remember, he was a four-year college player on his fourth season now and he’s older than LeBron and Carmelo, BTW) Roy is most likely very close to his ceiling as a player. I might be Greg homer, but sky is the ceiling for him given his age, power, athleticism, and skill set. I mean, he’s 21 and missed a lot of basketball over last two years and still doesn’t have all his athleticism back, but he still controls the game so much! It’s my opinion that we are backing the wrong guy and that drives me nuts.
In short, I really like Roy but love Greg for what he can be to this team. Also, I am the anti-Timbo since I think Greg can be all that while thinking Bynum is a nice shooting big man, but not a big deal. Opposing arguments are always welcome, but it was kinda funny how upset some people got over my stance.
by xedubx on Nov 23, 2009 11:18 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Wow - This is incredibly thought provoking
Rec’d. It’s a critical time for this team. Building toward a championship really is like walking a high wire without a net – one false step, and it could be over. I’d never really thought about this issue in the way you presented, but you make a very strong argument. I still think the perfect scenario is having your cake and eating it too, with Roy and Greg being what Shaq and Kobe were (without the drama, hopefully), a devastating inside-outside tandem that wins multiple rings. But it’s fraught with peril – if Greg becomes what you and others (including myself) think he can, it’s asking a lot of Brandon Roy to share, or potentially, give up, the top billing. I truly believe Brandon wants to win it all, and is willing to do what it takes to get there. Like I said above, hopefully Nate and KP can help Brandon get there, because if this all comes together, I don’t care if LeBron goes to New Jersey, takes D Wade with him, and they get John Wall with the first pick – the Portland Trail Blazers will be able to hang with any team in the NBA.
November 23, 2009: In a shocker, KP once again proves smarter than this DeJuan Blair fanboy because the Inferno is a ballplayer who fits with our post focused centers perfectly.
by blazeraddict on Nov 24, 2009 12:06 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, it's something that we have to solve eventually, and better sooner than later
Because next two years are so important to Greg’s growth. There’s really some fascinating things going on within our roster in terms of social and organizational behavior with Greg, Brandon, and Nate right now. Obviously, it’s too big of a topic for me to tackle as a reply. Perhaps I’ll get motivated enough write a fan post for this.
I think it would be a fascinating read if a writer with a background in psychology and social behaviorism follow the Blazers around for next two years and write about the power structure and communications between individuals. Heck, I’d love to do it myself, except earning a living thing gets in the way.
Well said
The sad thing is that people have been waiting for a Brandon Roy to come along since Drexler, and now that he is here there are some that just don’t get it. Roy is a top ten NBA player, a rare player, and in fact has a chance to surpass Clyde as the all-time face of the franchise.
OMG I just jizzed in my France
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