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The Steve Blake Paradox


A quick disclaimer-- this post is not about who should start.  I could care less who the starters are.  It's also not debating rotation.  The "first unit" "second unit" conversation is something I have a hard time getting into.  Championship teams simply play 8 man rotations in the playoffs.   So really, the rotation becomes almost irrelevant late in the year.


Ok- now that I've started a totally random debate... Here's my point: The Steve Blake discussion has almost universally surrounded his ability to spread the floor at hit 3's vs Andre Miller's inability.  The Steve Blake supporters point to his past clutch 3's (against Toronto- late against the Pistons), the doubters point to the fact that he has shot poorly this season or that his defense is more of a liability than his offense.

Here's the problem with this debate.  I will concede that Blake is a far superior shooter than Miller.  How about I even concede that Blake is "clutch" (this pains me but I will give up for argument's sake).  Now, there's 4 minutes left in the game and the Blazers are down 1.  Steve Blake dribbles the ball up.  Roy get's the pass at half court with 12 seconds on the shot clock.  Blake runs to the corner.  The opposition immediately runs a second defender at Roy at half court.  Who does he pass to now?  Oden at the top of the key?  Webster on the wing?  Aldridge?  Rudy standing next to him??  He can't even see Blake anymore.. So if Blake is our big clutch shooter, how is he going to get the ball?  He needs someone else to break down the defense for him.  So he's left standing in the corner, essentially able to do nothing.  The only player on the team able to break down the defense at this point is Miller (I suppose Bayless if you want to go there, but he's just not getting in the game). 

So now you say-- let's put the 3 guard line-up out there.  To that I say simply: I want a championship some day.  Don't you?  History repeats itself for a reason.  It's hard to find a championship team in modern history playing 3 pt guards late in games (and Roy is in many ways a pt guard).  I believe the Rockets had Sam Cassell and Kenny Smith on the floor together at times, but that's the closest instance I can remember..

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I want a championship some day too

And I doubt Miller will be a part of it.

by tominhawaii on Nov 22, 2009 9:28 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

Fair point

Will there be a pt guard or someone else that can break down the defense on the floor? Should they create an offense that would benefit that? Or should they just continue to stand around confused?

by TPfor3 on Nov 22, 2009 9:31 AM PST up reply actions  

I just want any reasonable explanation

other than Steve Blake spreads the floor, for why him rather than Miller. The fact is the floor isn’t spread in the fourth quarter, because once the opposition takes the ball out of Roy’s hands, no one can get Blake the ball…

by TPfor3 on Nov 22, 2009 9:34 AM PST up reply actions  

why is that such an unreasonable explanation for you?

It is kind of important to have someone spread the floor.

by bustabucket on Nov 22, 2009 9:36 AM PST up reply actions  

My entire point!

is that space is irrevelevant unless someone beats their man off the dribble. Unless someone gets past the three point line and into the paint, it does not matter if you have good shooters “spacing the court”.

If you have 5 JJ Redick’s standing around the 3 point line, you have a nice semi-circle and that’s about it.

by TPfor3 on Nov 22, 2009 9:39 AM PST up reply actions  

having players who can shoot the 3, like blake, webster and rudy, make it harder for there man to leave and double. Miller cant shoot the 3, which means his man can lay off and help with the double and triple team.

by bustabucket on Nov 22, 2009 9:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Again

not leaving to help is irrelevent until help is needed. Thus, until someone beats their man off the dribble, no defender has to leave a shooter.

by TPfor3 on Nov 22, 2009 10:18 AM PST up reply actions  

If only we had a guy in the 4th .....

…who could start the play at the top of the key …break down his man (with a cross-over or two) and either score or get it to the wing for Blake. Maybe we could trade our SG for one…that would be awesome

"And in the end
The love you take
Is equal to the love you make." -The Beatles

by 92wastheyear on Nov 22, 2009 10:46 AM PST up reply actions  

No one can get Blake the ball?

Where does his shots come from then?? I am puzzled

"And in the end
The love you take
Is equal to the love you make." -The Beatles

by 92wastheyear on Nov 22, 2009 10:44 AM PST up reply actions  

ha ha ha

I’m doubting either one of em will be on that team at this point.

The Warriors beat us…. that’s going to be skrewing with my confidence for a while…

The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.

by faith on Nov 22, 2009 9:45 AM PST up reply actions  

with a six player lineup finding an open player would be easy.

Steve Blake (1) dribbles the ball up. Roy(2) get’s the pass at half court with 12 seconds on the shot clock. Blake runs to the corner. The opposition immediately runs a second defender at Roy at half court. Who does he pass to now? Oden(3) at the top of the key? Webster(4) on the wing? Aldridge(5)? Rudy(6) standing next to him??

...and that's a good thing

by In Walks Rudy on Nov 22, 2009 9:30 AM PST reply actions  

It worked last year against Boston to end the first half...

Nate always goes away from what works. He should stck with it until the defense makes him change up.

PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04

by tssbro on Nov 22, 2009 12:35 PM PST up reply actions  

If Martell is on the other wing

the floor is spread and Blake gets to the paint. He can dump it off to any cutters or lob inside. It works a lot, they don’t do it enough and Andre Miller sets a nice example for Steve. Those two have a good relationship with Steve learning a lot from Andre. It’s visible to the naked eye. It’s great to have two skilled PG’s.

by oregonslee on Nov 22, 2009 9:33 AM PST reply actions  

"They" don't do it enough

Absolutely. Once penetration begins resulting in dunks and layups (by someone other than Joel) rather than 3’s, this team will be really on to something.

However, I have never seen Steve Blake succesful getting into the paint against even marginally good defense.

by TPfor3 on Nov 22, 2009 9:37 AM PST up reply actions  

I will accept that he "could" be good at getting in the paint

However, I personally have never seen that and kind of doubt that it will happen consistently.

by TPfor3 on Nov 22, 2009 9:40 AM PST up reply actions  

"Never..."

You honestly have never seen this?? It isn’t his strength and we all wish (probably Blake too) he had this ability, but let’s not overstate to make a point.

PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04

by tssbro on Nov 22, 2009 12:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Way to pad your numbers tpfor3!!!

Half your own comments??
And if Roy has the ball, why can’t he see Blake? The last thing we need is Brandon Roy going blind!
Go Blazers!!!!!

by blaze1 on Nov 22, 2009 11:12 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

I'd like Miller to start

I enjoy it when he is in with Greg and LA. When he tries to lob to Joel, (or anyone tries to throw anything but a light toss) Joel seems to have trouble making a basket. I think he needs further wrist strength training or SOMETHING) And the same goes with Juan. Not the ideal recipient of the lob pass.
 But whoever said Blake has learned a lot from Miller is right. He has learned and I’ve seen him feed the “big guys” since Miller has been here. He didn’t used to do so!! Maybe Blake can be the person who comes in to relieve Brandon. He seemed to do well working without the ball in the 3 guard line up. Maybe Brandon can then learn from Blake…
I think Blake is a very hard worker and I like him. I just think Miller is a much better point guard and wish he was starting. Blake will not bring them to the WCF.
Oh well, maybe it will be good for Miller to rest his ankles.

by Natsthecat on Nov 22, 2009 11:39 AM PST reply actions  

not about strength

some guys have soft hands and some don’t. joel most certainly does not. lobbing or throwing quick hard passes to him is just inviting a turnover. it drives me nuts when rudy does that.

by colinmarsh on Nov 22, 2009 2:12 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree.

Yes, Blake can spread the floor better than Andre. Yes, this is the offense that had success last year. Yes, we won 54 games last year with this offense. And finally yes, this was the offense that got its ass handed to it in a playoff series. Yes, this is the offense that other teams have figured out how to beat quite simply. Yes, a second defender thrown at Roy early in the shot clock when Blake is on the floor spells disaster.

Andre will start before this years end. I am confident.

by dario argento on Nov 22, 2009 11:46 AM PST reply actions  

not if roy sulks and doesn't go all out

if he’s not paired with steve blake. he pretty much came out and said that yesterday.

by colinmarsh on Nov 22, 2009 2:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah I just read that. After reading that, I am pretty confident Andre will not be here by years end.

I am pretty pissed and disappointed in Roy for how he has handled trying to integrate Miller. I think he is being a spoiled little brat.

Now that Miller has been told off by Roy and Nate publicly, I would be surprised if he ever fits in to this team.

by dario argento on Nov 22, 2009 3:39 PM PST up reply actions  

yah now we can win around 50 games

and bow out against a good defensive team again, sweet.

by colinmarsh on Nov 22, 2009 5:29 PM PST up reply actions  

If Roy is double teamed then someone is open. Pass to the open man.

Actually if we are fielding a lineup of Roy, Blake, Rudy, Webster, Aldridge, and Oden, there should be 2 open men.

But lest say we only have 5 men on the court (Roy, Blake, Webster, Aldridge, Oden). Blake and Webster will be ready to shoot in the corners, Oden will be in the low post (unless we are using that stupid set with Oden out at the 3-point line), and Aldridge will be somewhere in the mid-range or high post. All of them are in a position where they can score if they get the ball and their man is guarding Roy. So all Roy has to do in that situation is pass to whoever is open.

by trk on Nov 22, 2009 12:19 PM PST reply actions  

I really think this is why the Blazers tried to get a playmaking small forward (Turkoglu) initially. B/c usually it’s an opposing small or power forward that is being sent with the double team. If Roy’s first pass out of the double team is to a playmaking small forward, that is much more preferable than the ball going to any of the small or power fowards on the team.

by JasonT on Nov 22, 2009 2:14 PM PST reply actions  

Yes

If Blake must be in late-game situations wih Roy (and I don’t think that Steve has been used in this role that much in the past) then a SF who can handle the ball is a necessity. Travis and Webster aren’t "that’ guy. Rudy is a decent option. I think Batum will eventually grow into the role

If Miller was to be dealt, a playmaking SF would make the most sense, to salvage this season and make Portland more of a threat in the post season. The only question remains is, what team will need a starting PG in the coming months and has a playmaking SF who’s earning in the vicinity of 8 mil this year?

Looking around the league, the only 2 candidates that fall “anywhere near” that category are Lamar Odom and Quentin Richardson. Caron Butler would be the ideal choice, but KP would have to “throw in” Rudy to make that deal plausible from a financial/talent perspective

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Nov 22, 2009 3:03 PM PST up reply actions  

check back, at the end of December

Notice I said “if” Miller was to be dealt.

Portland is going through the easy patch of their schedule, right now. (Or, do you expect Martell Webster to get double-doubles on a regular basis?) The Blazers could play “pretty well” with their current lineup/roster and stlll finish 6th in the WC. And then they’d likely play 5 or 6 playoff games and then regroup for the summer, again. That’s not meeting preseason expectations (although I suppose that “injuries” would then be used for the “spin” re: why the team underchieved…)

“Just good enough” isn’t good enough. There’s no guarantee that young talent will continue to improve as individuals or as a unit. KP should always be on the lookout for ways to improve his roster…if a contending team suffers an injury to their starting PG and they have a forward who can start in between Roy and LMA, then by all meqans make the deal. But you had better hope that someone besides roy can handle the ball and make plays when it’s crunch time in the post season

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Nov 22, 2009 10:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Again, with the premature post...what is up with that?

(here’s how that final two sentences “should” have read)

…if a contending team suffers an injury to their starting PG and they have a forward who can start in between Roy and LMA, then by all means make the Miller deal. But you had better hope that someone besides Roy can handle the ball and make plays when it’s crunch time in the post season

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Nov 22, 2009 10:21 PM PST up reply actions  

I plan on checking back

All I am getting at is let’s see what they do when they start playing teams that are going to test them. Who is going to step up? Will it be Martell? Will Rudy keep giving spirited play and cut back on some of those turnovers? Will Nate figure out that LA and Oden can work a devastating high/low game? Can they figure out how to use Miller and Roy together? Can LA start putting together a run like the second half of last season?

Can we let some of these story lines play out instead of talking about salvaging a season that isn’t even a month old? Isn’t it at least a little bit amusing to have used that phrase for a 10-5 team that hasn’t come close to playing basketball the way it is capable of playing it, no matter what the strength of schedule might be??

PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04

by tssbro on Nov 22, 2009 10:53 PM PST up reply actions  

not really

Because I always have high expectations of the Blazers, even when they may not merit them. I don’t like the way this season is heading, especially if Nate and Brandon have “alienated” Miller. The 10-5 record could be fool’s gold, considering “who” the team has gotten most of those wins against. I’m not sure the “mettle” of this unit is prepared for adversity, at least they didn’t appear to be mentally tough against Houston in the playoffs last spring. They especially can’t afford any injuries to Oden, Przybilla or LMA, for the next 5 months.

I could be wrong, but I think even more Bedgers will be concerned, about 6 weeks from now, if the team is hovering around .500 in January and the top 4 spots in the WC start to look like they’re out of reach—even with a repeat of the sensational 2nd half of the regular season, like the team enjoyed last year. They shouldn’t “count on” lightning striking twice

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Nov 22, 2009 11:29 PM PST up reply actions  

When did the Houston series become the be all and end all of last year's season?

Did you really expect them to win 54 games last year and then beat Houston in the first round? Wasn’t it a great time watching the team grow and win so many games in ways that were unexpected? This team has shown mettle for two straight seasons winning more games than expected in both. Every year I want the Blazers to win every game they play but I would be pretty foolish to not be able to look back and find the positives and track what kind of growth I was seeing in the team and the players as the season went on. And if I wasn’t seeing growth or the possibilty for growth I would be right there with you looking at what they might be able to do to salvage the season.
Maybe I am projecting onto your choice of phrase all the stuff I have been getting from blogs and writers and radio show hosts over the past month and that isn’t fair to you. It just feels like so many fans are in the dumps over a rough start to a season that is in its infancy. There is a lot of ball left to be played and I can’t wait to see what happens with this team.

PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04

by tssbro on Nov 22, 2009 11:55 PM PST up reply actions  

The Blazers crossed the line, last year

They aren’t rebuilding anymore, they’re contenders. The team’s success from year to year will now be measured by how far they advance in the playoffs
That’s how it has always been in the NBA, and that’s how it will always be. Enjoy the regular season, and the little victories along the way. But reputations are made or broken in May-June. That’s how KP, Nate and the players will be judged by Paul Allen, and the rest of the league.

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Nov 23, 2009 9:35 AM PST up reply actions  

That was my original point...

It isn’t close to being May and you said “salvage this season.” I thought you might see the humor in that but that’s fine. Thanks for giving me permision to enjoy the “little victories along the way.” I plan on enjoying the season as the team ebbs and flows. With all sincerity, I hope you do too.

Part of that joy for me, even when following a contender, is to see how a team gets from point A to point B. There are hills and valleys along the way for every team and watching how they respond to all situations lets you get to know the team and its players. We can’t really know what the end product is going to look like until they actually play out the season. That’s all I meant. Peace.

PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04

by tssbro on Nov 24, 2009 5:54 PM PST up reply actions  

successful 3 guard lineups - not a recipe for Portland

Isaiah, Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson come to mind… Roy has skills and toughness that make him similar to both Dumars and Thomas. But honestly, that’s not Portland team makeup.

Years from now, championships hopefully in hand, teams will be talking about our inside game (Oden and Alderidge) and our best all round player in Brandon Roy…. not our outside jump shots…. See Shaq’s Lakers and Tim Duncans Spurs.

by icedan on Nov 22, 2009 5:20 PM PST reply actions  

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