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Maybe we've underestimated the Frenchie/Pippen factor

OK, like most Blazer fans, I'm starting to be concerned.  I understand that the Blazers' offense is a work in progress, what with a new point guard and a returningwing being introduced (Miller & Martell, respectively), along with a major new weapon (Greg Oden's improved low-post game).  But the defensive futility in Houston really threw me.  Could it be that Nic Batum--who models his game after Scotty Pippen's--was important to this team's success last season in a similar manner to Pippen in Chicago?


Star-divide

Of course, Nic is no Scotty--not yet.  Call him a Pippen in progress.  But his game at the defensive end and in the open court is already similar.  Last night, Ariza scored 30 points, I believe.  With Batum shadowing him, I think he would have been lucky to get 20.  In that event, the Blazers win the game and everyone is gaga over Roy going for 41.  Instead, there's endless handwringing over Miller, LMA, etc.

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18.4

dinasour type of guys choir boys

by mittsabishy on Nov 1, 2009 2:32 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Nic was good for about 4 wins last season

This year he likely would have been at least as valuable, and Nate according to his statements liked the combination with Roy to take defensive pressure off him and always put Nic against the best wing player. That sadly isn’t an option.

However I have to say I liked what Martell did so far. He looked better on defense than when we last saw him. Maybe not as methodical as Nic, but very active going after rebounds and blocks/contests. Nate should continue to start him, and see who gives him the most at the end of games. If we need scoring, the lineups with Rudy are preferable.

But slowly things happen that they cannot help and the Blazers Fellowship of the Ring begins to break apart

by Norsktroll on Nov 1, 2009 2:57 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Well...

Before Batum, the last time the Blazers made the playoffs was with the Pip. So there may be something to this.

My favorite teams are the Blazers and any team that is playing the Lakers.

by OCBlazerFan1 on Nov 1, 2009 7:52 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure if it's 'cause Portland fans didn't pay too much attention to Scottie Pippen when he was in ...

his prime with the Chicago Bulls, but it’s disrespectful to put him in the same sentence as Nicolas Batum. Of all the current NBA players, the closest thing to a contemporary Pippen is Andre Iguodala—and that’s it! Now, it’s also a disservice to Batum to compare him to Pippen, since those are lofty expectations he’ll be unable of ever reaching — even at his peak — as a basketball player.

For Batum, Tayshaun Prince is the most apt and appropriate comparison. That’s ’cause the Frenchman will possibly be an important glue guy on a title team like Prince, but will never be the second-in-command on a dynasty like Pippen.

Dear Paul Allen:

Waive Patty Mills & sign Ime Udoka.

Sincerely,
AK1984

by AK1984 on Nov 1, 2009 8:08 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I like Nicolas Batum, really. Andre Iguodala, however, was one of the finest defensive players in ...

the NBA last season and a guy who’s frequently overlooked by the mainstream media, casual fans, et al. Back to Scottie Pippen, though, it’s a stretch to even compare Iguodala to him, but “Iggy” is still the closest player there is these days to mirrioring Pippen’s astonishing all-around skill set.

For Batum, the handles, strength defensively, and ability to facilitate an offense just aren’t a part of his game like they were for Pippen. Yet, that’s not an insult for Batum, for Pippen was just such a unique and wonderful player that it’s hard to fathom most anyone ever reaching that apex as a point forward.

As it is, the Tayshaun Prince comparison for Batum is by far and away the most apt one out there. It’s a compliment, too. Be that as it may, though, many folks still want to foolishly go beyond that realistic comparison and reach to the sky and pluck Pippen’s name out of the clouds. That, however, just isn’t fair to anyone, including Batum himself.

Dear Paul Allen:

Waive Patty Mills & sign Ime Udoka.

Sincerely,
AK1984

by AK1984 on Nov 1, 2009 9:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Comparing a guy to Pippen on the basis that he’s a lanky SF who’s a good defender is just ridiculous. There are a dozen guys who have been through the league since Pippen retired and the only ones who have been even halfway reasonable facsimiles have been Iggy and I’d also add Josh Howard, circa 2006-2007 before ankle injuries did him in, and even those are/were shadows of Pip.

We’ll be extremely lucky if Nic ever gets to either of their levels in their primes, much less anywhere close to Scottie’s.

by Royster on Nov 1, 2009 8:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I hear this a lot

But I think people forget that Batum is a grand total of 20 years old. If you project him forward a couple years, he could certainly reach Pippen’s level or close to it. Or do you think Pippen sprang full-blown from the head of Zeus?

Like Pippen, Batum is highly intelligent, extremely long, and has a remarkable nose for the ball. He also patterns his game after Pippen’s, which helps.

The point of my post—not explicitly stated—was that Jordan didn’t win a thing until he got paired with the perfect counterpart—long, quick, defensive-minded Scotty Pippen. And early indications suggest that the Blazers’ success last season had more to do with the similar chemistry between young Nic and Roy than we may have realized. Batman & Robin revisited? The following years will show.

"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla

by hurryup09 on Nov 1, 2009 9:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There are lots of talented 20 year olds

a minute fraction of which turn into all timers. All the players that we cited are/were MUCH better than Nic currently is. It’s not an insult to suggest that his ceiling is closer to theirs.

The reason it’s foolish to compare Nic to Pippen is the same reason that it’s foolish to compare Roy, Mayo, or Eric Gordon to Jordan, or LaMarcus, Al Jefferson or Al Horford to Tim Duncan/KG. Their games may be superficially alike, but those guys are all all-timers. Of all the SGs to enter the league in the last decade and a half, only one has earned the right to be mentioned in the same sentence as Jordan (and even that sentence reads, “MJ was still definitely better than him”).

I wouldn’t call Nic our “Pippen” any sooner than I’d call LaMarcus our “Duncan”, or Roy our “Jordan”. Those guys are so far beyond comparison that you need to build up some years of elite level performance before throwing those comparisons around. Until Nic can prove he’s better than Iggy, Deng, Pierce, Prince, or Ariza before he gets the Pippen mention.

Scottie was much more than an intelligent defender who had a nose for the ball, and if that’s the basis for the comparison, there are plenty of better ones out there, the names just aren’t as sexy. We’re talking about a guy who led a team starting Pete Myers to 55 wins and nearly the ECF while averaging 22, 6 and 5. What about Batum possibly suggests that he could possibly get anywhere near that?

by Royster on Nov 1, 2009 10:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If I compare modern-day players to Michael Jordan, I'll tend to use this hybrid comparison.

Jordan was the combination of Vince Carter’s inherent athleticism mixed in with Kobe Bryant’s work ethic and determination on the court.

As you can plainly see, Brandon Roy’s name is nowhere close to being in that paragraph. And, quite frankly, it’ll never deserve to be there, with defense and intensity being the main reasons.

Dear Paul Allen:

Waive Patty Mills & sign Ime Udoka.

Sincerely,
AK1984

by AK1984 on Nov 1, 2009 10:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Pippen was great for sure

But I disagree that nothing about Batum suggests he could possibly approach that level in due time. Was it not impressive for a 19-year-old kid—living in a foreign country and dealing with a language barrier—to step into a starting role on a playoff-level NBA team and hold his own? This youngster was generally assigned the top scorer on the opposing team—guys like LeBron, Carmelo, & Kobe. To me, it was absolutely remarkable that he didn’t get eaten up & spat out.

As I said above, if you project that kid forward a couple years, it’s easy (at least for me) to imagine him approaching Pippen’s level. We think of Pippen as a key member of an NBA dynasty and a top-50 all-time player. But just as Jordan benefitted from playing with Pippen, so did Pippen benefit from playing with Jordan.

We saw that all too clearly the season Jordan played baseball instead of hoops. Pippen wanted to be the go-to-guy on that squad, and he threw a tantrum when his coach didn’t see it that way. But the bottom line was this: Pippen was a role player. A great one—one who deserves much credit for those Bulls championships. But put Pippen on a mediocre team and do you really imagine he’d have been voted a top 50 player? There’s no way. He didn’t have that kind of scoring ability, and scorers are the only players who are recognized despite playing on bad teams.

I say this not to knock Pippen but to provide a little perspective. Yes, Pippen was great. But he was no Jordan—not by a long, long shot. “Batman & Robin” indeed. Nic Batum is all potential at this point, and many things can prevent potential from being realized: injury, bad decisions, etc. But I think that rejecting the idea out of hand that Batum could one day approach Scotty Pippen’s level is illogical.

That point aside: the thrust of my post was that Batum and Roy may possess the kind of three/ two chemistry that helped make Pippen & Jordan so successful. That’s NOT to say that I think Roy will even approach Jordan’s level. My intent was to suggest that, perhaps, Batum’s unusual length, nose for the ball, & defensive ability & focus will complement Roy’s offensive ability in a similar manner to how Pippen’s skills complemented Jordan’s.

What had made me begin to consider this possibility was watching the Blazers’ early-season struggles sans Batum—in particular the spectacle of Trevor Ariza lighting up the Blazers for 30 points, leading to a Blazer loss despite Roy’s putting up 42. That reminded me of Jordan’s pre-Pippen days, when he scored tons of points but didn’t win a thing.

"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla

by hurryup09 on Nov 2, 2009 1:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Using one anecdote about Pip not having a play called for him

to suggest he wasn’t the go to guy on those Bulls teams is ridiculous. Pippen led a team with the only other players of note being Horace Grant and Toni Kukoc to 55 wins and the verge of the ECF. He also led that team in scoring and assists while shooting nearly 50% from the floor. That’s not a “role player”, that’s a star. The closest comparison I can think of would be KG, who carried a bunch of bad teams into the playoffs, but only got over the hump when he had some elite help. Arguably Pippen was more successful without MJ than KG was in Minny since he managed to make it out of the first round in his first year sans Jordan.

Bottom line, though, we’re talking about the 2nd offensive option on a 72 win team being compared to the 5th offensive option on a 54 win team. Yes, he’ll improve, but it baffles me that you think Pippen wasn’t an elite offensive player.

by Royster on Nov 2, 2009 5:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously we're not going to agree on this one

I admired Pippen’s defensive ability and his open court game. What wing has been better in those areas? But his outside shot and handle were mediocre at best. There was a REASON he didn’t have plays called for him at the end of games. And it wasn’t just on the night of the infamous temper tantrum. Pippen’s consistent late-game failures forced his coach to stop going to him in crunch time.

As for those 55 Jordan-less wins: I’m sorry, but 55 wins for a team that was a championship dynasty both before and after being led by Pippen is not impressive. KG made it to the playoffs with with truly BAD teams. THAT’S impressive. Pippen was not in KG’s league in my opinion. He was very good, but not great.

So I’ll repeat it again: I think Nic Batum has a chance to at least approach the Scotty Pippen level. But we’ll never resolve this argument on this dying post. :-)

"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla

by hurryup09 on Nov 2, 2009 12:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Now we're hitting a whole other territory of unfair and, well, insulting comparisons, although ...

this one was implied versus explicit in meaning. Still, the inference was there that Brandon Roy and Nicolas Batum are Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen (a.k.a., “Batman & Robin”) “revisited.”

As much as the Batum to Pippen comparison is unfair to both parties, any semblance of lumping Roy in with Jordan is pure lunacy. Everything form Jordan’s glorious defensive prowess to his on-court intensity puts him multiple levels above Roy on the ladder of players throughout NBA history.

Jordan was so talented as a wing player that he led two separate dynasties without the help of a supremely talented two-way pivotman, which not even present-day superstars like Dwyane Wade or Kobe Bryant can attest to achieving in their careers.

You’d have to go all the way back to the mid-‘70s — and that was a weak era in the NBA — to find a team that won a title with its franchise cornerstone being a offensive-minded wing player, which was the Rick Barry led Golden State Warriors. I don’t count the Larry Bird era Boston Celtics, as he had plenty of help up front with Robert Parish and Kevin McHale during the ’80s.

Suffice it to say, Roy won’t win a ring as a Trail Blazer and bring home a trophy to Portland unless he defers somewhat to Greg Oden in the near future. For Roy, he can’t reach his final destination by being a one-man show — nor can his first mate be a soft, mid-range jump shooting 4 such as LaMarcus Aldridge — instead, he’ll need to team up with a two-way pivotman, Oden, to aid him in captaining this trail blazin’ ship ashore.

Dear Paul Allen:

Waive Patty Mills & sign Ime Udoka.

Sincerely,
AK1984

by AK1984 on Nov 1, 2009 10:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Holster that assault rifle, AK

I didn’t say that Roy/ Batum would be as good as Jordan/ Pippen. Importantly, they won’t HAVE to be to win a championship or two, if their teammates develop as it appears they might. The Bulls had great players in Jordan & Pippen and an above average 4 in Horace Grant, but beyond that their talent level was pretty run of the mill in my opinion. The Blazers of the next few seasons will likely have more weapons accompanying their 2, 3, & 4 (Greg Oden in particular), providing that no major chemistry or injury issues emerge.

Going back to my “Batman & Robin revisited?” phrase: the point was that Roy & Batum may possess the beginnings of a similar 2 & 3 CHEMISTRY to that possessed by Jordan & Pippen. Call them—potentially—“a poor man’s Jordan & Pippen.” Fine. The point is that the way the two players’ talents mesh is reminiscent of how Jordan & Pippen’s abilities complemented each other. Surrounded by a—potentially—much stronger supporting cast—that might well be enough to bring some glory to the Rose City.

"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla

by hurryup09 on Nov 2, 2009 12:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

a team that won a title with its franchise cornerstone being a offensive-minded wing player, which was the Rick Barry led Golden State Warriors.

I still remember watching that team. Clifford Ray and George Johnson provided the defense and rebounding. Rookie Jamaal “Silk” Wilkes was money from the baseline. Jeff Mullins, Butch Beard and Phil Smith was the backcourt rotation.

They averaged 108 ppg and gave up 105. Barry scored 30 ppg at age 30. You’re right—it was a different era, a lot of talent was still playing in the ABA.

The Bulls (Jerry Sloan, etc) took them to game 7 in the WCF, then they swept Elvin Hayes’ Baltimore Bullets in the finals

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Nov 2, 2009 3:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I was surprised to see

Nate Thurmond was the starting center for that Bull’s team, I usually associate him with the Warriors of that era. (Adelman also played 12 games with Chicago, that year.)

Small world. I wonder if Rick and Jerry ever reminisce about the “old days” when Utah faces Houston

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Nov 2, 2009 3:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm from the Bay Area and am in my mid-50's

So I remember that Warriors team well. But I’d forgotten that they faced Nate the Great in the WCF. Thurmond had been traded that off season, but the “two-headed center” of Ray & Johnson got it done on defense.

Importantly, Barry was no one-man crew on offense. Obviously, Wilkes (then Keith Wilkes) was a great player who went on to win rings with the Lakers. But Phil Smith was also an incredible hoopster. In fact, he was arguably the best two-guard in the league at the time that he went down with a ruptured Achilles tendon.

Incidentally, the Warriors’ sweep of the Bullets in the Finals was an upset of epic proportions. None of the experts gave the Warriors a prayer of winning that series, let alone sweeping. Something to keep in mind when you hear that our young Blazers have no shot in the playoffs against NBA powerhouses like the Lakers, Spurs, & Celtics.

"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla

by hurryup09 on Nov 2, 2009 7:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hurryup, maybe we can double-team AK....

My sig originally (before I realized it was gratuitously taking up space) had Nic compared to Pippen, Rudy to Bird, and Oden to Russell…

Do I think any of them are there yet? Heck no.

Do I think they show attributes of the players they are compared to? Heck yeah.

Oden has a chance to become a pre-eminent defensive stalwart like Russ… I haven’t seen a guy block as many inbounds since. (Now he just has to learn Russell’s patented block-to-start-the-fast-break move…)

Rudy’s outstanding vision, passing ability and clutch 3 point shooting remind me of Larry. Granted, he won’t have the boards… but I love watching Rudy play, almost as much as the original Birdman… (His shot hits the net at such an extreme angle that the net jumps above the rim… only the pure shooters exhibit that behavior often.)

And I watched Scottie with the Bulls, and he was one of my first fantasy basketball selections ever… Pip was an all-round stat sheet stuffer. Every night, he’d bring double-digit points, and rebounds, assists, and a steal or two. He absolutely put up amazing offensive numbers. Do I think Nic is anywhere close yet? Nope. But I see the exact same lanky, long-arm build, nose for the ball, defensive-oriented, tough-minded team player stud in Nic that I did over a dozen years ago for Pip.

Although, AK, I do agree with you here:

Roy won’t win a ring as a Trail Blazer and bring home a trophy to Portland unless he defers somewhat to Greg Oden in the near future

Sure hope it happens!

by Visionary2 on Nov 2, 2009 10:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, Oden is a bit Russell-esque--if more Thurmond-like (Russell was just 6-9)

But Rudy as Bird revisited? You kinda lose me there, particularly since Bird was a four and Rudy is a two. But sure: Rudy has “outstanding vision, passing ability and clutch 3 point shooting,” which were among Bird’s notable attributes. (Rudy is pretty athletic, so he’s got an edge over Bird in at least one area.)

Overall this one’s kind of a stretch for me. You’ve gotta really scrunch up your eyes and blur your vision to Rudy & Bird as in the same mold.

"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla

by hurryup09 on Nov 3, 2009 12:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs


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