Blazers Appear in Donaghy Book Excerpt
by Dave on Oct 28, 2009 9:20 PM PDT
in News
Email
PrintAs mslivkoff pointed out in the sidebar and reader Kirk let us know by e-mail, Deadspin has publish excerpts from Tim Donaghy's upcoming book, one of which mentions Portland's 2000 Conference Finals loss to the Lakers.
The quote in question comes in the section regarding Dick Bavetta. It reads:
The 2002 series certainly wasn't the first or last time Bavetta weighed in on an important game. He also worked Game 7 of the 2000 Western Conference Finals between the Lakers and the Trail Blazers. The Lakers were down by 13 at the start of the fourth quarter when Bavetta went to work. The Lakers outscored Portland 31-13 in the fourth quarter and went on to win the game and the series. It certainly didn't hurt the Lakers that they got to shoot 37 free throws compared to a paltry 16 for the Trail Blazers.
The context is an overall discussion of Bavetta as the league's go-to guy when they wanted a certain team to have the advantage. The primary, and far more detailed, example was his handling of the 2002 Conference Finals in which Sacramento famously got jobbed against those same Lakers. The delivery of information was supposedly subtle, as the league would make known via officiating recaps which made or missed calls it didn't like, casting disproportionate displeasure upon calls against its favored team without ever mentioning the favor explicitly.
Obviously this will cause an uproar in some places, as perhaps it should. Whatever anger I feel is tempered by a couple of issues:
- I don't trust Tim Donaghy as far as I could throw him if he were tied to a hippo.
- I believe the Blazers could have and should have kept that game out of the officials' reach. If the fix really was in, how did the officials let such a big lead build in the first place?
- Providing there were shenangians, the offense against Sacramento was far, far greater. Even Donaghy describes Portland's situation as "it certainly didn't hurt". He characterizes the Lakers-Kings Game 6 as pretty much the worst-officiated game ever. I'm more angry for the Kings than for us...and I've never stopped being angry for them. This doesn't change or augment that.
- Everybody who wasn't inebriated, stupid, or an L.A. fan knew darn well that Shaq and company got advantages consistently during that era. It's a little like Donaghy coming out with a book saying Native Americans might have been slightly disadvantaged by American expansionism. You don't say.
I do believe if the league really did influence games that this is exactly the method they'd use and I've stated that for years. I do believe David Stern's office has a fond eye for ratings and that most people associated with the league know it, including the refs. It wouldn't surprise me to know that some refs played games with their authority as described elsewhere in the excerpts. I also don't doubt that people have been screwed through the years. That said, I still believe this is overcomable and I believe it's incumbent upon true championship teams to do so. I just have a hard time swallowing anything Donaghy says whole, especially since the major points are so in line with what passionate fans (and yes, conspiracy theorists) have wanted to believe for decades. The quotes we're reading are of the sort that anybody familiar with the situation could have written blind. Maybe there's more mitigation in the book itself, but it feels a little too pat to be wholly convincing. And isn't it just a wee bit convenient that all of these accusations against other refs distract from the fact that you were actively fixing games...that you bet on...consistently. Like most things Donaghy says, it feels like a pinch of truth seasoned liberally with fear and dumped into a large vat of self-serving broth.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
95 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
First!
To agree with Dave, please don’t feed this crap by buying this jerk’s book!
Now, as a Celts fan...
We knew the fix was in – every break went our way, right? McHale’s throwdown of Rambis not punished? Fix! Isiah throwing a lazy pass so Bird could steal the ball? Fix! Henderson stealing the ball? Fix! Word is Bevetta turned on the heat in the old Garden for game 6 that year… And geesh, first Red is allowed to draft Larry a year early (prompting a rule change) and then Red gets to keep him forever (prompting the Larry Bird exception rule change)… The NBA was a spinoff from the WWF you know…
I'm either too young or Celtics ignorant to know what you're trying to say
Two points scored by GO’ = "thunderdunk"
I think he is in rant mode.
I know what he is talking about, but I don’t get what he means.
Visionary is usually clear, so I’m sure he’ll let us know in time.
*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Sorry, guess I can't pull of sarcasm...
Just trying to tweak any Celtic haters with long memories.. The Celts (like any dynasty) had their share of conspiracy theorists who felt our guys in green had more than the luck of the Irish going for them…
No, we got the sarcasm, it is just that it is so obviously laced with the wish to prove that
there is no level of push by the league.
Obviously it is odd that McHale was not punished. But the rest of the stuff was players, so that is kind of silly.
Do you think there is no chance that a little of the NBA is pushed?
(Obviously not, ala Tim Donaghy.)
*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
I used to...
when I was young, and my team lost, I listened to conspiracy theories… they went the other way, too…
Now, would I put it by Stern to WANT to influence things? No.
Do I think the Knicks draft envelope might have been placed in the freezer? You know, that sounds just crazy enough to be true for a deperate league in the ‘70s.
But as I age, and see that NOBODY can keep ANY secrets these days, the main reason I don’t believe in conspiracy theories is that there are just too many people that would have to be involved for the truth not to come out…
Do I believe Donaghy? No.
All I was saying is that there are certainly pushes given by refs.
Donaghy was one of them.
I am sure Stern has done a little here and there, but I doubt he has a standing mandate, & I’m sure he would call them behind the scenes ‘rule clarifications’ if he were to do something.
But just because there isn’t a conspiracy doesn’t mean that refs don’t actively screw with games.
Once again: Donaghy.
*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Refs are human...
And have personal likes and dislikes, too. Some refs hate certain cities (who knows if its because of fan treatment, media treatment, no hotels near the stadium, long cab ride, rain, whatever…).
So yes, I have no doubt some refs favor certain teams and players. (I cringed whenever I saw Jake O’Donnell calling a C’s playoff game, e.g.) There IS start treatment, which as a BB purist, I despise…
But to believe that there is a “from the top” conspiracy? Again, that will, over the years, just involve way too many people to keep hidden… (I realize you could argue that Donaghy is now the one blowing the whistle… but he’s the ONLY one… and he obvious motives) And if you think players (like Shaq, smiling knowingly, “we got all the calls”) “know”, you gotta be kidding me, No WAY that would stay silent…
So, yes, the refs may push a game this way or that way (but there ARE three of them – it’s been my experience that if one calls things one way, another seems to balance it out a bit).
In any event, my main comments remain:
- don’t pay Donaghy by buying this trash.
- There is no Area 51 in the NBA…
He's being sarcastic
Playing into the conspiracy thing.
I am the master of my fate, I am the Captain of my soul. - Charles Wesley
Quick reaction:
The Blazers gave that game to the Lakers. No official could’ve done that much.
Even if it Donaghy totally correct, the Blazers deserve that loss in the history books.
I agree. I don’t trust Donaghy. So what he says makes no difference.
My own eyes are what tell me that the Kings beat the Lakers, and the Lakers don’t deserve that championship. Not some official.
*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
I might just kill somebody
It will just take me a while to figure out who….
Two points scored by GO’ = "thunderdunk"
Regarding Game 7 in 2000....
A while ago I had the opportunity to meet an ex-NBA player who joined the Lakers the season after the infamous Game 7. When I told him I was a diehard Blazer fan, he told me that we had been robbed in that game. I asked him what he meant and how he knew that for sure. He went on to tell me that he couldn’t see how a team as talented as the Blazers could blow a 13 point lead in the 4th quarter like that, so while he was on the Lakers the following season, one day he made a point to ask Shaquille O’Neal about it. Shaq told him that the refs had definately helped. Shaq smiled and told him that the Lakers had gotten every single call in that quarter.
Now I never went back and watched a replay of that game (it would have been too painful), and I honestly do not recall a bunch of questionable or terrible calls in that infamous quarter. And I realize this is a very second hand account of what went down in that game. But still it has to make you wonder….
It doesn't take much to tip a game between two evenly matched opponents.
I remember a lot of calls in the fourth quarter of that game going against the Blazers, but most of them were borderline, not flagrant like the bad calls in game six of the 2002 WCF. Who knows what really happened? That’s the real problem with officiating in the NBA: it’s nearly impossible to prove anything. It would take D. Stern or Dick Bavetta announcing during a press conference that the fix was in before anyone outside that circle could know that Donaghy’s allegations are correct.
Whenever I start to go down the NBA ref conspiracy path, I keep reminding myself that I’m into the game more for the beauty and athleticism and precision of the sport than for bragging rights anyway.
by MiledAnimal on Oct 28, 2009 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You've really hit the nail on the head. So much of
life happens on the borderline—at the margin, I like to say. Whether it is you waking up a split second before you drive in the ditch and kill yourself, or the choice you made when you were dating two people and decided to marry one instead of the other. Some decisions, easy to make incorrectly, can have powerful and lasting effects. Though we have better camera shots and slow motion and other capabilities, much of the game having to do with fouls is a judgement call, that can look arbitrary or crooked depending on whether it goes your way or not. It would be interesting to have some high-tech analyses of the several games mentioned.
"I won't back down." -- Tom Petty
"History is important. If you don't know history it is as if you were born yesterday. And, if you were born yesterday, anybody up there in a position of power can tell you anything, and you have no way of checking up on it." -- Howard Zinn
Who's the player?
My guess is J.R. Rider.
Dear Paul Allen:
Waive Patty Mills & sign Ime Udoka.
Sincerely,
AK1984
Antonio Harvey, I’m spitballing?
I really hope the games start streaming on Blazers.com soon.
If I had to term the present situation, it would have to be a series of unfortunate events.
by Cablinasian on Oct 28, 2009 11:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Nah, Antonio Harvey was on the Vlade Divac/Cedric Ceballos/Nick Van Exel era L.A. Lakers.
Dear Paul Allen:
Waive Patty Mills & sign Ime Udoka.
Sincerely,
AK1984
I have wondered:
It was Pippin fouling out of the game early and Sabonis being in foul trouble that made me wonder. But that was mainly because the lakers campaigned to the press for two days or so to get fouls called on our star players.
hg
Recently I rewatched the game on You Tube
The refereeing bias at the center position was rather obvious. Shaq started slowly, and the refs were kind to keep him relevant. 2-3 calls on Sabonis were very questionable. The TV commentators remarked on refereeing under the basket frequently – though rather politely. My favorite episode is at end of the 1st quarter, when Brian Grant was put on Shaq : the poor guy quickly got 2 calls just for standing next to Shaq.
Lakers’ comeback happened when Sabonis was sitting out. He looked like the only Blazer able to turn the tide. And indeed, once he got in, the Blazers finally made a basket, from his assist. And guess what: he fouled out the very next play, on a questionable tick-tack call again. So the Bavetta crew did look expert enough in controlling the game.
Not that I'm going to buy his book... but
why not look into what he is saying? It wouldn’t hurt anything. Turning a blind eye to someone who might be telling the truth helps nothing. It sounds like Donaghy is pointing to specific games and naming Refs, its not like he is vaguely accusing others of cheating. He’s giving a who/when. Stern should not just ignore this because Donaghy was caught cheating; other people wont, and if it’s clear there was cheating outside of TD there needs to be some action taken.
ball does lie
by In Walks Rudy on Oct 28, 2009 9:56 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
Remember that we all thought Jose Canseco was lying just to sell his books? Most people though Jose was a scum, too.
Some good points
The NBA tood axtra measures to discredit Donahue. I can see that it would be more compelling to Donahue to point fingers as Misery loves company.
I can’t help thinking of when we were playing Chicago for the championship Wen asked Jordan why he was going to guard Clyde, His answer was They won’t call fouls on me.
hg
i never watched that game again
but how i remember it , smith and bonzi were eating kobes lunch down low all series and all of a sudden he got away with murder……shaq hip checked wallace and co. a few times and got away with it. not bitter AT ALL
"never in my life have i been hit like that" - DJ victim
eh...
from what I remember of that game it wasn’t the fouls but the fact all the Blazers forgot how to shoot the ball and make some baskets. We lost by 6 points and it was becuase of very very poor shooting a total breakdown from Portland, even if the refs “helped” LA, Portland was the ones who gave the game away.
I had to leave the house immediately and go shoot a basketball around to blow off the steam, if I wasn’t young I might of had a heart attack from high blood pressure.
Why!!
Portland missed shots because when they tried to go inside they were hog tied with no fouls called. They had no choice but to try jumpers to try to win the game. and it was Wallaces shot that kept missing. The old saying Jump shots are inconsistant. LOL;
hg
I can't help but associate Donaghy with Jose Canseco
When Canseco’s book came out, everybody wanted to dismiss him because he’s a dirt bag. The truth is, however, that he was right: a sizable majority of MLBs marquee players from the last 15 years have been revealed as steroid users. Everybody accepts it now.
I want to dismiss Donaghy because he’s a dirtbag. However, when you look at the empirical evidence, the thrust of his argument is probably true. The important question to me is whether the league is going to change without intervention by the US Senate.
Two points scored by GO’ = "thunderdunk"
by T$ 225 on Oct 28, 2009 10:07 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Stern and other "higher ups" will never ever announce any such thing as long as they are in office.
it would destroy most if not all of the foundation the NBA sits on and rebuilding the trust and faith of its fans would take years if ever to come back to a good standing. So it would be a miracle for it to be announced and a miracle for it to bounce back from such a thing
I'm thinking
There was so much on the blogs last year of the Media having too much impact on the refs and The NBA with a matchup with The Caves and The Lakers that we all thought for sure it was a walk in.
If that would have happened, it would have looked awfully much like a take. That is why I think either the NBA kept their hands off or sacrificed one year to stay out of hot water.
hg
I'm with you 100%.
I recall thinking that back in the day folks were foolish to dismiss Jose Canseco’s book due to him being a scumbag and former steroid user, for that in itself doesn’t hurt his credibility. The same thing applies here to Tim Donaghy, who’s a reputable source in my book regardless of his past gambling issues and fixing of the spread in some games. If anyone’s going to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, it’s someone with nothing to lose. In this case, it’s Donaghy.
Dear Paul Allen:
Waive Patty Mills & sign Ime Udoka.
Sincerely,
AK1984
by AK1984 on Oct 28, 2009 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I look at it the same way
that cops look at informants. Dirtbags, yes, but informed dirtbags. How much dirt is on your hand has nothing to do with what truth you speak, only whether people will believe you or not.
I couldn’t agree with you more.
Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'. -the shawshank redemption.
I'd be mildly surprised if a lot of the stuff mentioned
were implied between refs, but I’d be shocked if they were that explicit about it, like Bavetta openly claiming he was the NBA’s “go-to guy”. Still, he really needs some sort of corroborating source. With Canseco, the presence of steroids in baseball left a paper testing trail and was pretty clear with McGwire and the Andro. Something like this is less definitively provable, so it makes it a little more suspect in my eyes.
just like
a lone gunman theory. Yeah, it was all Donaghy. Honestly, I’ve seen enough from Bavetta to believe he was a part of the action. Think about it, he certainly is chummy with a lot of coaches and players. I, personally, would like my refs to have nothing to do with the players/coaches. I’ve seen Bavetta shake hands, pat players on the back, just way too much interaction in public view to believe that nothing’s going on there. Besides, it’s not like the NBA said they would open up to public scrutiny. It’s really a sham. I think Congress should get involved, it’s way too closed off to believe that absolutely nothing is happening here. I think trying to ditch the refs, was just another way Stern can muscle his crew to his bidding. I can’t wait for the day Stern retires into Alzheimer’s for good. He’s just as dirty as the ref he points his finger at, which, by the way, he should have known about first, if he was doing his job.
He’s either incompetent or smarter than people think. I vote for the latter. He’s no spring chicken. More like a chicken hawk. Eats the chicken and points at the rooster.
Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'. -the shawshank redemption.
Like I said, I wouldn't be really surprised if he wasn't incompetent at all
but I would be surprised if he was openly boasting about it to other officials like Donaghy claims in the excerpts. It’s one thing to manipulate games on bahlf of the NBA, it’s a completely different thing to brag about it to everyone else before and after.
The thing is, Bavetta wasn't alone
So by bragging to his boys, he wasn’t exactly entrusting them with a secret.
Witty Unpredictable Talent and Natural Game
I'm with you on this one AK. Those who dismiss the possibility are highly naive.
I think way too many folks are ready to stick there head in the sand on this issue. Whether or not there is a pattern of ref bias in the NBA is a complicated and sensitive issue. We do not “know” anything, but the possibility is very real:
1) Basketball has more judgement calls by officials than any other major sport. The number of whistles in a game is far higher than in football, and calls are not subjected to review;
2) Add to this that one or two calls can send a star player to the bench and have a huge impact on the game;
3) There are enormous sums of money at stake depending on who advances in the playoffs;
4) It would only take a handful of well placed officials to influence the outcome of key games.
To put this in simple terms, the League has motive and opportunity that doesn’t mean they are guilty, but it means that anyone who dismisses the possibility is very naive.
We know that there is home court bias. We know that there is star bias. Why is it so difficult to imagine that there is a bias towards large market teams?
by upper left corner on Oct 29, 2009 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions
The only way to fix the current referee situation is to jolt them out of their comfort zone
This book, true or not, is a great way to attempt it. So I’d welcome the book for that reason.
It’s impossible to say what’s true in the book. He does a good job of reinforcing many fans’ suspicions though. Game 6 of the 2002 WCF is seared into the brain of every fan who watched it. This is just fuel for the fire.
I expect this to go away quickly, even though I’d rather see this on the front page of every major news site. At least then, it might force an independent investigation, along with a possible statistical analysis of referee actions. And hey, if the NBA is clean, the investigation and numbers would back that up. Nothing to lose for the NBA.
Right?
Totally agreed
The possibility is real and should be investigated, but I am cynical enough to believe that it won’t be investigated as long as Stern is in charge.
by upper left corner on Oct 29, 2009 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Also, say only 25% of what's in the book is actually true
That’s still unacceptable activity for the referees.
While Tim Donaghy is indeed a degenerate
and by all accounts a jerk, so is/was Jose Canseco – and we all saw the fallout from his book. Not saying Donaghy is telling the truth here, but you can’t dismiss these claims out of hand either,
I hate Comcast.
Card carrying member of Team Bayless
I believe in Greg Oden
After watching Shaq play in his younger days
If you did not feel the fix was in you had to be crazy, and the NBA wonders why TV viewership is down so much…hmmm.
book shelved?
I thought I read something today essentially saying the publisher was shelving the book and not releasing it out of concern for liability. So take that into consideration as well. I don’t buy anything Donaghy is saying. Convicted felon with an ax to grind and money to try to make.
by resolutedefense on Oct 28, 2009 10:26 PM PDT reply actions
Precisely
This guy has no way to earn a living. No one will hire him. So he needs to sell his book, and to do that, he has to come up with stories that enough people will think might be true that they will buy it.
I can tell you how to make an Excel spreadsheet that proves Portland wins 62 games this year.
True enough, however......
Donaghy has questionable motives, but so does the league. The league has motive and opportunity to introduce a “marketing bias” into its officiating:
1) Home teams win, that helps put fannies in the seats;
2) Star players get a majority of the calls and rarely foul out of key games, that helps keep fan interest;
3) Why is it so hard to imagine that the league fosters a bias against small market teams in the playoffs?
by upper left corner on Oct 29, 2009 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree that people shouldn't be completely dismissive
but every league has “questionable” motives to introduce a marketing bias so that aspect gets played up a little more than it deserves in my eyes. It’d be a whole lot more convincing if Donaghy was just a broke guy looking to cash in on what he knows (a la Canseco) rather than a guy who was kicked out of the league for violating the rules and gambling on games.
I agree with all that
but Donaghy saying so means absolutely nothing. You look at what happens on the court and you would be suspicious at times. But we are suspicious because of what we see.
The fact that Donaghy said something means nothing at all to me. If nothing was going on at all, he would pick out a few games that might look suspicious and spout off about them.
I can tell you how to make an Excel spreadsheet that proves Portland wins 62 games this year.
link didnt work
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4603209
book canceled
by resolutedefense on Oct 28, 2009 10:30 PM PDT reply actions
They were getting threatened with a lawsuit from the NBA
NBA’s been threating any publisher with a lawsuit if they published the book. That’s not something you should just blow off.
"We didn't start the fire. It was always burning. Since the world's been turning." - E. E. Cummings
by Sexual Tyrannosaurus on Oct 28, 2009 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Didn't we do that with Miles?...
… sounds like someone needs to publish that book!
ball does lie
by In Walks Rudy on Oct 29, 2009 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions
As a Kings fan (and I love the Blazers too)
Both teams got hosed, one way to fix this if refs are throwing games for money, is to pay the refs more. They travel more, never see their families, and as much as I often hate their calls, it’s a tough job. As we saw in the preseason with the horrible officiating, and I ended up missing the refs i loved to hate. They have one of the hardest jobs in the NBA and are paid far less than anyone else. As far as the fix being in from the top, i don’t know what to do about that.
But if word is coming down from higher ups to fix games
What good does paying them more money do?
Witty Unpredictable Talent and Natural Game
Credibility
We can all say what we want about Donaghy’s credibility, or lack thereof, but I think he may be on to something. I watched both the Blazers choke/get hosed and the Kings get screwed, and I recall being more than a little annoyed with the officiating. But that’s neither here nor there. Remember this, we all thought Jose Canseco was lying, too.
If any thing at least this makes it harder for
Stern and suits to pretend that they are teflon coated and no problem can stick to them as long as they ignore[pretend it dosen’t exist] it
by southern oregon on Oct 28, 2009 11:51 PM PDT reply actions
So funny
How hard people are to sell on the truth.
Donaghy says it. Stern acts like he has something to hide. Shaq says it. Clyde has been saying it. All of our eyeballs tell us there is BS going on…..but, “it’s probably not true.” Someone might label you a conspiracy theorist. Because, there is nothing worse in the world that you could be.
Donaghy got boxed in because he strayed from the program. Now everyone is doing their best to minimalize him.
Land Rondo.
Sounds about right......
There is certainly enough “evidence” that the possibility of bias cannot be dismissed as “tinfoil hat” paranoia.
by upper left corner on Oct 29, 2009 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions
I always wondered what the exact mechanism of the league's influence was
I didn’t believe for a second that Stern phoned the refs and told them who he wanted to win a game. It had to be much more subtle—a “wink & a nod,” letting the refs know which way their bread was buttered while allowing for league deniablity.
Any objective person who watched the Lakers win that series with Sacramento knew that a message had been sent SOMEHOW. As the series progressed, Vlade Divac could pick up a foul by breathing in the general direction of a Laker. Clearly, the league and/or it’s sponsors did not want a small market team like the Kings killing their ratings. Now, perhaps we know how the deed was done.
Donaghy is obviously a low-life. But he does offer a believable explanation for how the league would let its desires be known: simply by dispensing a disproportionate amount of criticism towards calls that had gone in the small market team’s favor.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Donaghy might be a "low-life"
but is it possible his boss and co-workers were worse? It’s probably at the least.
Land Rondo.
the all-out deniers
are some of the most brain-washed people. Naive.
You cant even critisize reffing without a fine— nothing to hide there.
People need to start looking behind the black curtain— stop trusting that business done behind there is nothing but good. Quit disbelieving your own eyes and other proof to the contrary. Any and all business that should be trusted should be done in front of the curtain.
It’s that simple folks.
Land Rondo.
Yeah, that's why it's we the people and not we the sheeple.
Dear Paul Allen:
Waive Patty Mills & sign Ime Udoka.
Sincerely,
AK1984
Stern is a herder
Maybe we shouldnt get into this too much because if too many people question, ref scandal topics will completely disappear from forums. It will be taboo to even start the topic.
Land Rondo.
by loyal_blazer on Oct 29, 2009 12:48 AM PDT up reply actions
I understand that Dave has to discredit Tim Donaghy because he will lose credibity if he doesn't. You
just have to be the guy that joins in with the crowd laughing off Donaghy’s story about how the NBA is rigged.
Yeah Donaghy is a cheat, but he has been exposed. Why wouldn’t he expose the others doing the same thing. Do you really think he is the only cheater involved in the NBA? In a buiness that has billions of dollars involved, you think he is the only ref trying to get ahead by cheating? I believe Donaghy.
It’s just so easy to discredit a guy that got caught cheating when he tries to rat on everyone else. It’s the same thing Kobe’s laywers did. Discredit the crazy girl from Colorado, she had to be lying. Kobe has millions, who wouldn’t?
Yeah Donaghy is feeding the suspicions of fans who have watched horribly reffed games. It doesn’t mean he is lying. The NBA has become more about show than basketball. You can’t deny that.
Kobe sucks
And he is the poster boy for a team who’s about to have this and the Pau situation come to light.
The the fact that Ron-Ron has been trying feverishly to get on the Lakers for the last 2 years and somehow gets himself thrown out of 2 games in the playoffs against the Lakers is icing on the cake for us wanting vindication to our suspicions.
Land Rondo.
by loyal_blazer on Oct 29, 2009 12:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Donaghy has financial incentive to lie
You shouldn’t just ignore that fact.
I can tell you how to make an Excel spreadsheet that proves Portland wins 62 games this year.
He also has incentive to tell the truth
You shouldn’t ignore that one
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Oct 29, 2009 7:44 AM PDT up reply actions
What incentive?
He has an incentive to make money, and the book will sell more copies if it has exciting stories, even if he has to make them up.
For all we know, the refs in the games in question were doing the same thing Donaghy was doing, and the league had nothing to do with it. We don’t know why those things happened.
I can tell you how to make an Excel spreadsheet that proves Portland wins 62 games this year.
The incentive to lie about this is much greater for the NBA.
It would completely ruine the organization. You shouldn’t ignore that fact either.
The NBA does not want you to even get a whiff of this book. That should tell you something.
Land Rondo.
by loyal_blazer on Oct 29, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions
It tells me nothing
If it is true, of course they want it stopped.
If it is false, of course they want it stopped, and Donaghy and his publisher would be sued for millions of dollars in libel damages if it went ahead.
Whether true or false, the NBA doesn’t want it published. That tells me nothing about whether it is true or not.
The NBA only has an incentive to lie of Donaghy is telling the truth. Why anyone should ever assume that this creep is telling the truth is beyond me.
Donaghy has an incentive to lie, whether these stories are true or not. He has an incentive to juice true stories up as much as he can while still keeping them believable. He has an incentive to make up stories. All of these things would help him sell his book.
I can tell you how to make an Excel spreadsheet that proves Portland wins 62 games this year.
Yeah, the NBA incentives here get overblown
This won’t “destroy” the league. If it’s true, what are the plausible outcomes here? Will all Blazer/Kings/small market fans just pack up and decide that they don’t enjoy watching basketball any more? Will the collective desire of the American public to watch high level professional basketball evaporate?
With all the talk here about “I don’t care whether we win a title or not, I just love to watch good basketball”, you’d think people would realize that this isn’t quite armageddon here, even if everything Donaghy is writing is 100% true. It would be a huge blow to the league that they’d spend years recovering from (similar to the rampant abuse and implied encouragement of steroids in baseball), but there simply remains too much of a desire for fans to see NBA-level basketball for it to kill the league, and there exists no other viable league or entity that can deliver that to us than the NBA.
What remains undeniable, regardless of the truth of its claims, is that having these claims out there presents financial harm to the league as a whole by bringing its impartiality into question (fairly or not), so of course they’re going to try and kill it.
If someone wanted to publish a book on the extravagant coke and hooker-filled exploits of jscot, Royster, or loyal_blazer, we’d do everything in our power to try and get that stopped, no matter how ridiculous it was (regardless of whether it was true or not), because that presents clear damage to our livelihoods. Maybe it wouldn’t relegate us to poverty for the rest of our lives, but it would harm our professional prospects greatly.
I’d argue that Donaghy has the greater incentives, actually. He has no other professional prospects, his reputation is in the dirt, he just got out of jail. This book is the difference between him being a multi-millionaire and developing a canseco-esque level of respect as a whistleblower and him just being seen as just another scumbag coming out of jail who has to work some other 9 to 5 job for peanuts.
Sure, there’s more raw money involved from the NBA’s end, but in terms of the impact the book could have for each of them, Donaghy’s remains far greater.
Agreed
If someone wanted to publish a book on the extravagant coke and hooker-filled exploits of jscot, Royster, or loyal_blazer, we’d do everything in our power to try and get that stopped, no matter how ridiculous it was (regardless of whether it was true or not), because that presents clear damage to our livelihoods. Maybe it wouldn’t relegate us to poverty for the rest of our lives, but it would harm our professional prospects greatly.
Not me. I’d just change my screen name and pretend I lived in Northern Ireland or something (I almost said England, but I don’t think I could stomach that).
Seriously, of course you are right. In real life, that would be very damaging, and I would indeed take legal action to block it. In a heart beat, I wouldn’t think twice about it, whatever the financial cost.
I’d argue that Donaghy has the greater incentives, actually. He has no other professional prospects, his reputation is in the dirt, he just got out of jail. This book is the difference between him being a multi-millionaire and developing a canseco-esque level of respect as a whistleblower and him just being seen as just another scumbag coming out of jail who has to work some other 9 to 5 job for peanuts.
100% correct. He has a huge incentive to put this story out there whether true or not.
And if it were true, it wouldn’t sink the NBA. It would sink David Stern and maybe a few other people in the league office, and they’d bring in someone with a perfect reputation, clean out a few refs, and everyone would say how wonderful the league had been at restoring their reputation.
I can tell you how to make an Excel spreadsheet that proves Portland wins 62 games this year.
Donaghy?
I don’t care if it is Donaghy saying it. When it was happening I felt we were being robbed. Call me paranoid, flat out wrong, or a scorned Blazer Homer, but I have always felt in 2000 we were the best team in the N.B.A. and at that time better than the Kobe and Shaq combo.
I also felt that the N.B.A. in the wake of the loss of the cornerstone of the N.B.A. and worldwide icon that was Michael Jordan did not want a team centered around a basicly unmarketable, at the time, Rasheed Wallace, and an aging cast of great, great players in their twilights. No way did the league want or need to see Pippen get another ring, or even an aging Sabonis. The league WANTED to establish the new generation of superstars and at that time that was Shaq and Kobe.
Truth is I was not optimistic entering the 4th quarter of the game. I knew we weren’t going to blow out LA on their homecourt for a game 7 win despite any lead we had with 12 minutes remaining. Deep in my heart, I wanted us to win, but in that paranoid part of my intellect I somehow knew we wouldn’t. I haven’t gone back and watched it, too painful but I remember it certainly seeming like LA started to get every call possible, and furthermore The Blazers couldn’t buy a whistle or a basket.
So I don’t care. Bitter Blazer Homer? Well maybe, but I still say Stoudemire, Steve Smith, Pippen, Rasheed and Sabonis…for that year, at that time were the better team. If I am being paranoid so be it, but it seemed to me The Blazers were allowed to be the better team they were, for 36 of the 48 minutes of that game and then somebody pulled the plug.
People can say how could The Blazers blow such a big lead? Well seems to me if you are playing one way, and being allowed to play one way and then all of a sudden you can’t do anything to draw a whistle in your favor and the opposition can do no wrong, that’s pretty hard to adjust to.
No I don’t need Donaghy for me to think our loss in that game 7 was more an action of the league wanting the “new young” and much more marketable superstars of Kobe and Shaq to litterally and symbolically take the torch from what was left of yesterdays superstars in Pippen and Sabonis.
Kobe pre-Colorado Scandal was a marketing golden boy, and Shaq, was well Shaq. How would of the N.B.A. promoted or market Pippen (been there, done that) Sabonis (great player, but from a media standpoint not really very marketable as a gregarious personality.) Rasheed was young and entering his prime, but his reputation was already established as being a “nutcase” loose cannon. (deservingly or not) add Damon and Steve Smith, Smith who played a great game and had a great season for us but also was on the downside of his career. What you have is a Blazer team that IMO was far more talented than The Lakers at that time but also far less marketable.
Ugh, I’ve got good memories of The Blazers like Walton dunking on Kareem and I have buried memories full of pain, such as Shaq cutting backdoor and slaming the ball to pretty much put that game 7 out of reach.
So if I’m wrong, I’m wrong. If it’s all just thin homer skin, then so be it. But I’ve been willing to believe something wasn’t right about that game 7 fourth quarter ever since the buzzer sounded and that was long before Donaghy alluded to anything.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
That Blazers team was full of headcases and beat itself.
Remember that they and the Lakers came into that previous regular-season game with 11-game winning streaks and the Lakers beat us in our own house on national TV. No one has ever cried “FIX” about that game.
What about the 3-1 lead the Lakers took in the WCF series? No one hollers about any of those games the Lakers won.
The Lakers had a better coach, better big-game players, and fewer headcases than the Blazers. They played at a consistently high level throughout the series. The Blazers were too up-and-down, winning when they were up and losing when they were down. Their collars got tight in the fourth quarter, and that’s why they lost.
Only problem with your scenario
As Dave pointed out, why wait until the final moments to put in the fix? When the league favored the Lakers over the Kings (and I felt it CLEARLY did), the refs called two quick, completely phantom fouls on Divac early in the first quarter. Bam—the scale was tilted in the Lakers’ favor. No muss, no fuss, and no dramatic swing in the 4th quarter to draw suspicion.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Note: that's not to say the Blazers didn't get hosed during that fateful stretch in the 4th
But it was in the way refs ALWAYS favor a home team making a late run in a game. Once the home team gains momentum, they start getting nearly all the calls. It’s lame, but fans eat it up—including us when we’re watching the Blazers at the Rose Garden. It’s a big part of “home court advantage.” The refs ride those home team runs like surfers riding a wave.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Year 2k
I remember the blazers coming out tentative. The aggression they were playing with all game was gone. The refs may have helped kill momentum because i do remember calls as well, but the Blazers were in a position that they should have won regardless. They just played scared. I agree with Dave here.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
"I told Pau the Lakers never win here in Portland; I think it's great." -- Rudy Fernandez
Oh and as for the kings
They were bloody robbed beyond all reasonable doubt. I have no doubt this book is 75% true or more simply because of what I can see with my own eyes.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
"I told Pau the Lakers never win here in Portland; I think it's great." -- Rudy Fernandez
This is the standard line and anyone who questions it gets labelled a "homer" or "a tinfoil hat" conspiracy theorist.
I remember Cowherd and Canzano making fun of people in Portland who question NBA officiating. Fans tend to adopt the same attitude: the team who is victimized by biased officiating is supposed to “suck it up” and “overcome” the bias. If the team getting screwed looses its composure or allows the bias to affect their play, that is taken as proof that bias doesn’t exist.
This whole line of argument strikes me as a form of “victim blaming” and as a form of social control to keep people from commenting on the likely possibility that Emperor Stern is not wearing any clothes.
by upper left corner on Oct 29, 2009 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Name calling
is a control tactic. If you let name calling control you, you are an idiot.
Land Rondo.
by loyal_blazer on Oct 29, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
If the fix was in for the Lakers
The Spurs would never have won a championship, let alone 3. They aren’t exactly a large market with through-the-roof ratings.
In that 2000 game 7, Portland settled for outside jumpers and missed them. LA took it to the hole. If Portland had hit even 2-3 more shots, they force LA to try to hit 3s instead of going inside and Portland wins. It’s that simple.
Patty Mills - PG of the future. Book it.
Wrong re/ the small market angle
As others have pointed out, the Spurs are a large market INTERNATIONALLY. During their championship run, they had more foreign stars than any other team (Duncan, Parker, Ginobli, etc.), and their international popularity (demonstrated by ratings and merchandize sales) was through the roof. Remember, Stern’s stated master plan is to take the NBA global.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Is it that easy to falsify setups?
Just allow a “boring” black/white team into a championship rotation, and all consipiracies are disproved?! Doesn’t the “liberal media bias” work similarly?
What I did not like during that game is Dunleavy’s time-out at the beginning of quarter 4. The Blazers scored the first basket that quarter (up by 15!) The timeout was supposed to stop the “momentum” at the 10 point mark. The game was still on fire then – Blazers were basically down by a single possession in that quarter. My impression was that Dunleavy told the players to slow down – and the Blazers did loose all aggression and flow after that. This is while Jackson told the Lakers something smart, “Forget Shaq” and that.
the game was still pretty much on
I think we should all stick our heads in the sand and pretend like the NBA refs are honest
Or more accurately let’s admit what we all know, that NBA refs are at worst crooked and at best incompetent, and agree to treat the NBA like professional wrestling and suspend our disbelief in the name of entertainment.
Blazer Fan
Basketball fans know who Tim Donaghy is and nobody believes much of what he says anymore. Who would believe a convicted gambling felon? If the guy was out to make money by betting on games he officiated, how willing are you to believe what he’ll put in a book? If it eventually does get published and people buy it, all Donaghy will do is make more money from our game. Tim has made enough money off our favorite sport. People need to stop giving him attention.
That said, do I believe other officials in the league have been swayed by outside forces to give an unfair advantage to another team? Sure, I can buy that. Do I think the corruption is rampant? No I don’t and neither does Tim Donaghy. But I’m sure from a legal standpoint his book is full of vague assumptions and partial truths. Just enough so if anyone challenged him, he could shrug and claim that he didn’t REALLY say all of those things. Know what I mean? That’s how people like this loser make money. By claiming to be the good guy “whistle blower” as a wolf in disguise.
"No one will question your integrity if your integrity is not questionable."
- Nathaniel Bronner Jr.
Regarding Hedo Türkoğlu:
Look at the bright side, Blazers fans -- you dodged a bullet. He peaked statistically two years ago. He's allegedly 30 but could be closer to 32 or 33 for all we know. (Do you trust Turkish birth certificates? And isn't it weird that he played four years of pro ball in Turkey in the 1990s?)
- Bill Simmons of ESPN.com
Thats how the league makes money
Thats how Stern controls by pretending to be the unblemmished, boy scout who would never do a thing wrong.
He just needs to immedately fine people for critisizing refs because, the refs should never be judged. He also believes that the investigation regarding these issues needed to be only done by an inside source, because hey, he can’t trust an outside source to give a virtuous evaluation of the happenings.
He does not trust outsiders, but we must trust him to the fullest. OK?
Land Rondo.
by loyal_blazer on Oct 29, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
The worst officiating I have ever seen....
Is when Donaghy officiated the Suns-Spurs series a few years ago.
Life is hilarious.
Yes, the fix appeared to be in on that occasion
It wasn’t just Donaghy. Stern’s decision to stick to the letter of the law and suspend Suns players for leaving the bench was very convenient. Of course, Nash’s busted nose didn’t help either. That was the Suns year, but between Donaghy, Stern (for whatever reason) and fate, it wasn’t to be.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Blazers,Jazz, OKC
win, the league would have an apoplectic fit because the management of the league believes that it’s the big market teams that keep the league solvent (no matter how badly those teams are managed).
It’s all about the viewership.
Ratings
Here’s a question for you Dave:
What were the television ratings for every finals since the merger?
When talking about refereeing -follow the money.
As I wrote above, it's not quite that simple
The league has also been looking long-term, trying to create a global product. The Spurs, with foreign stars like Duncan, Parker, & Ginobli, may not have drawn huge domestic ratings, but their international ratings & merchandise sales were reportedly very strong. So Spurs success would have represented an investment in the future from Stern’s perspective.
A bonus: the Spurs’ success provided a handy counter-argument for the league vs critics who claimed that a big market bias existed.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Video: JaVale McGee displays his peerless court awareness
- Dirk Nowitzki doesn’t think he should be an All-Star
- Mikhail Prokhorov promises to sell the Nets if he runs Russia
- Tony Parker handles the Spurs’ rodeo road trip with food and booze
- Kobe Bryant on someone eclipsing his 81-point game: ‘One day it will happen’
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
