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Too Much Talent?

One of the ideas floating around out there in the media sphere is that the Blazers (gasp, alas, alack) might have "too much talent".  Obviously this would be a disaster of proportions not seen since the summer "Armageddon" and "Deep Impact" came out together.  So let's discuss it.

Or let's not.  It's silly.

OK, OK...I'll give you this.  The Blazers have a number of players stockpiled who could play the same position, giving the team legitimate depth.  A side effect of that depth is log-jamming at multiple positions, which could lead to underutilization of some players, which could be roughly described as "too much talent" if you were comparing the current team to a (fictionalized) ideal.  But that's pretty much where it ends.

Using a couple of recent examples, the Garnett-Pierce-Allen-Rondo Celtics and the Kobe-Everybody L*kers teams were clearly more talented overall when they won their championships than the current vintage Blazers are now.  Before you get your official Blazer boxers in a knot, let me hasten to add that this has as much to do with experience as personnel.  Portland certainly has the potential to be as good as either of those teams but right now they aren't.  And yet, as we just mentioned, those teams which had more talent than the team with "too much talent" walked away with rings.  One could also point to vintage Spurs or Bulls teams and make the same argument.

Maybe if you stuck Kobe Bryant and LeBron James on this team you could start talking about too much talent.  You'd have plenty of overlap in positions and far more shots needed than were actually available.  Eventually this might cause difficulties.  But you know what?  I suspect a Roy-Bryant-James-Aldridge-Oden team would find a way to win a championship or two in the meantime.  I can't think of a GM in the league who wouldn't try if given the chance.

Long story short, there's no such thing as "too much talent".   That's not to say the Blazers are issue-free.  Talent just isn't the right name for the issue.

The Blazers' problem is that they have too many players who have skill and potential but lacking experience (in some cases) or a well-rounded game (in others) they can't be clearly distinguished and thus designated a semi-firm rotation spot.  Though they are different from each other, when you measure out the various plusses and minuses of each they end up pretty close to each other overall.  This lack of definition creates the logjam and thus the illusion of too much talent.  In actuality the issue is too many people in the grey area, which in an odd way means not enough talent has shown itself.

The script plays out verbatim at point guard and small forward and lingers still at center.  Greg Oden is one of the franchise's great hopes, but with the performance we've seen so far folks are nervous enough to consider Joel Przybilla indispensible.  Yet Przybilla starting doesn't please anybody as a long-term solution.  That's not too much talent.  Steve Blake served well enough as a point guard but the team went out and got somebody to challenge him.  Yet that somebody, by the team's own admission, is not guaranteed a starting spot the way a Steve Nash or Jason Kidd would have been.  He's in a dogfight with the guy the team wanted to upgrade.  That's not too much talent.  One potential small forward has spent six years in this league finding a position and a role and still isn't nailed down.  Another potential small forward was just starting to blossom after a semi-disappointing early career (based on his draft position anyway) when he was injured for a year.  He's just now getting back in the saddle and is riding gingerly.  Another potential small forward is a future stalwart but is young, inexperienced, and right now can't seem to get more than 16 minutes per game.  That's not too much talent.

I suppose the position where you could make the TMT argument legitimately is shooting guard...maybe.  Rudy Fernandez appears to have a career ahead of him in this league and brings valuable skills to the floor.  Brandon Roy isn't going to be giving up many minutes this year or ever.  But both Brandon's and Rudy's roles are in flux (point guard, shooting guard, small forward, ball-handler, runner, passer???) and Rudy has more yet to show before we can peg the magnitude of his game for sure.  If both are locked into the shooting guard role and cannot play together then this will eventually become an untenable situation.  But that hasn't been demonstrated yet and either way because of Rudy's growth curve it won't matter that much this year.  The TMT argument is not really strong in the short term here either.

If the Blazers have too much of anything, it's too much fuzziness.  Fuzzy players usually need court time to clear up the fuzz.  With such a plethora, getting them all worked in is nearly impossible.  Fuzzy rotations usually leave everybody unhappy, as each player thinks the fuzz should be resolved his way.  Were LeBron James or Devin Harris to sign with the team this fuzziness would immediately depart as both roster and rotation would be defined by their talent.  But as that's not likely to happen soon, we're just going to have to live with (and sort through) the murk as best we can.

The bright side to the equation is that if any of the fuzzy-position players go down to injury the team can replace them with somebody of reasonably equivalent caliber.  That's something to hold onto.  And really, the mix and match approach doesn't hurt the team much.  Players will just have to learn to live with more situational minutes and fewer guaranteed ones.  It's not like the Blazers have a crippling weakness here.  It's just a mistake to equate relative equality with overall (let alone overwhelming) superiority.  The former has been demonstrated amply.  The latter has yet to be shown.

--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com

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It is silly

If you want to say that the Blazers could use more experience, I think that is fair and reasonable assessment of the problem. But too much talent? No, I don’t think that could ever be a problem.

It’s true that talented people tend to have issues involving ego and that these issues if not properly handled by strong team leaders can create a less than cohesive team that isn’t living up to it’s potential, but there is not a direct correlation. If anything it just means that your coaching staff isn’t talented enough…

And to be clear I don’t think we have that issue, media be damned.

"No disrespect to Jeff Blake"

by Eat Politicians on Oct 14, 2009 1:36 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Or, we might say

“Roles aren’t clearly defined yet.”

But really, the “too much talent” problem is simply “more potential talent than can be fully developed and fully utilized.” It’s a real problem, because it can lead to discontent (Sergio), and/or wasted talent (think Channing Frye, perhaps). But it is about #63 on my list of 50 problems about which I’m most concerned, if I’m trying to build a champion.

It isn’t lessening, either. Freeland and Claver are on the horizon, Dante is on the bench, Pendy will get well, we haven’t traded away first round picks, etc. It’s a problem I hope we keep having. Better that than not enough talent.

We have another problem that fits right in with this “too much talent to develop” problem. Now that we’re going to be getting one of the late first round picks, the market for Paul Allen to buy more of them is smaller. This is a problem.

I can tell you how to make an Excel spreadsheet that proves Portland wins 62 games this year.

by jscot on Oct 14, 2009 1:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

E.g. for the past:

Jermaine O’neal, Petro come to mind

"The match in Los Angeles is a good opportunity to begin to demonstrate that we want to make war." Rudy Fernández (translated)

by G_dubs on Oct 14, 2009 1:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ah. from, not for

"The match in Los Angeles is a good opportunity to begin to demonstrate that we want to make war." Rudy Fernández (translated)

by G_dubs on Oct 14, 2009 1:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Jermaine would get time to show what he has on this team

unlike earlier coaching staff (names omitted) we seemed to be fine with giving rookies a chance to shine. But sometimes they just aren’t ready cough Bayless cough Hard to let go though, although in Jerryd’s case I still hold out hope we will find a place for him…

"No disrespect to Jeff Blake"

by Eat Politicians on Oct 14, 2009 1:49 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nate would've played Grant and Wallace instead of Jerm, too

if he was in Dunleavy’s shoes

interesting story about Mike, that Wheels shared on the other day. Mike said he was always walking on eggshells with Whitsitt’s “too deep” roster. He said he would check the stat sheets to make sure that Smitty and Pippen (etc) were getting enough points, and if they weren’t he’d make sure they got more “love” in the next game

We’re not at this “too much talent” point in Portland, yet. But Rudy’s situtation is similar to O’Neals…he’s blocked by a “better” player and adding Miller just made it tougher for #5 to get on the court

When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Oct 14, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It never ceases to amaze me that so many BEdgers

try to compare the Jermaine O’Neal situation to the situations faced by some players on the current team. There is no comparison. The 2000 team was composed of veteran players. The frontcourt was stacked. The team was a championship contender that could not afford the luxury of letting a young player learn on the court during games they needed to win. O’Neal had no shot at playing. Trading him was the logical thing to do. You can certainly make the point that bringing-in Dale Davis and Shawn Kemp was unfettered lunacy, but trading O’Neal was not.

The 2000 Blazers lacked the critics’ advantage of seeing how O’Neal developed with Indy. Yet even there, the critics are blind. O’Neal spent the majority of his max-contract years injured. Would that contract have turned out to be a good deal for the Blazers? Hardly, yet the bashers continue to yell about what a stupid decision it was to trade O’Neal.

by MiledAnimal on Oct 14, 2009 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

Rec

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Oct 14, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We probably have a too much talent to develop problem

But who doesn’t want that problem?

"No disrespect to Jeff Blake"

by Eat Politicians on Oct 14, 2009 1:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I might be tempted to trade one or more pieces of that potential talent

into a kick butt bonafied All-Star vet, and realize another form of value from all the potential.

"The match in Los Angeles is a good opportunity to begin to demonstrate that we want to make war." Rudy Fernández (translated)

by G_dubs on Oct 14, 2009 1:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If we can get the right deal, sure

All-Star vets aren’t available every day, and we don’t actually need one at SG or C, and PF is doubtful. So then we’re looking at SF and PG. In which case we didn’t need Andre, or we’re hindering our future with Nic. So he has to be a relatively young vet, not on the down swing. There just aren’t that many guys out there that would fit with us that might become available.

How does one bonafy a vet, so that he is then bonafied? Is that related to calcified? But perhaps you meant bona fide…. :)

I can tell you how to make an Excel spreadsheet that proves Portland wins 62 games this year.

by jscot on Oct 14, 2009 3:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dag nab it!

I sure hate the no edit thingy! …I have no idea how bona fide turned into that…anyway

I hear ya jsot on all counts. But if our fuzzy talent does turn into an issue, I would hope KP is working the phones like crazy trying to get something done, and I do not mean “Jermaine O’Neal for Dale Davis” getting it done…

"The match in Los Angeles is a good opportunity to begin to demonstrate that we want to make war." Rudy Fernández (translated)

by G_dubs on Oct 14, 2009 4:02 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

uhh... jscot

"The match in Los Angeles is a good opportunity to begin to demonstrate that we want to make war." Rudy Fernández (translated)

by G_dubs on Oct 14, 2009 4:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

Isn’t it great when you make a mistake in a comment complaining about no edit?

I can tell you how to make an Excel spreadsheet that proves Portland wins 62 games this year.

by jscot on Oct 14, 2009 5:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

looking at SF … we’re hindering our future with Nic.

Need I remind you that KP made an all-out offer to get Hedo on July 1? Just because Turk bolted to the Raptors doesn’t mean the the Blazers are “done” looking to upgrade the SF position, but it also doesn’t mean they wouldn’t consider making a “consolidation” trade for a “perfect fit” SF in the near future, either

When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Oct 14, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well an All-Star SF was available in February and again in June that the Blazers passed on

According to reports and based upon the actual trade for junk pieces, Milwaukee offered Jefferson cheap and the Blazers looked the other way. So no, the team was not looking for just any All-Star but a particular skill-set to work within the team. Hedo would not replace Nic but Sergio as a point forward and take some minutes from Steve and Martell both as well as limiting Nic’s future growth.

"Either way we have two phenomenal units. I'm excited to play with either one." - Martell Webster

by lee3022 on Oct 14, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is the part that all the "consolidators" seem to ignore.

Do I think Nick Collison would be a nice fit for the Blazers? Sure do. Probably as much as AK does. The problem is that the other team has to be in agreement. What if they don’t want some combination of Travis, Bayless, Blake and a draft pick? Doesn’t matter how good the deal might look on paper for both teams, it has to look good for the people in a position to make the trade.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Oct 14, 2009 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed and OKC is not so likely to be trading to stengthen a divison rival

"Either way we have two phenomenal units. I'm excited to play with either one." - Martell Webster

by lee3022 on Oct 14, 2009 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

the people who don't get to develop?

I've tried for quite some time to come up with an epic signature. I now realize that I don't post frequently enough for it to really matter.

by Marmaduke on Oct 14, 2009 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed: too much fuzzyness.

Miller and Outlaw both need haircuts, and everyone else is pushing the stubble factor way too far.
If someone doesn’t shave, or if we sign Mark Eaton, we’re in real trouble.

"Is it always like this?" Collins said after the scrimmage. "It was like the first game of the NBA playoffs or something."

by Y5k on Oct 14, 2009 1:51 AM PDT via mobile reply actions   1 recs

Consolidate Talent Please

Dave nailed it. We don’t really have too much talent, we have too much B-level/second tier talent.

Championship teams are usually comprised of three legitimate As, a few Bs, and a few Cs (grade-wise). Bulls had three (an A doesn’t have to be an all around stud; Rodman was an A for best in class rebounding). Spurs did too. Celtics, check. Lakers, well, Odom isn’t quite an A but Kobe is such an A+ that you can have two—Pau being the other—and be OK. Point is, most title teams usually have three A players and then fill in the rest of the squad with important role players that are Bs and maybe one or two Cs cracks the 8/9 man rotation.

Right now we have one definite A—Roy—and likely another if LA makes the leap from a B+ to an A- this year. Greg was supposed to be the third A, but I think most reasonable ppl can agree that post-micro Greg has a ceiling of a B/B+ rebounding/defensive center. You could argue we have four or five very good B players (RF, NB, AM, TO, Pryz certainly are Bs) and one of them MIGHT develop into a top-tier player.

More likely, we end up having too much talent in the middle range but never quite having enough at the top to break through to a championship team. This is why I’ve been saying for a couple years, let’s flip a couple Bs for that third A. We wanted to get a third stud in FA, but we just ended up with another reasonably priced B. That’s why we need to package some young talent (I know, it hurts KP, but let some of your young pups go) and pick up that third A that will still be playing good ball for the next 5-7 years to ride along with Roy and LA in their prime as we compete for titles.

Apologize for the length, just had to say my piece.

by WhatItDo on Oct 14, 2009 2:17 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Can't agree
Greg was supposed to be the third A, but I think most reasonable ppl can agree that post-micro Greg has a ceiling of a B/B+ rebounding/defensive center

Ceiling? Nope, can’t agree that is his ceiling. It’s silly to make assumptions about his ceiling right now.

Using your ratings, he’s likely to be at least a B level talent this year. He’s all world in offensive rebounding already. I don’t know if he’ll be an A level talent, but it’s way premature to say his ceiling is below that. The kid is a monster (and yes, he’s still only a kid).

I can tell you how to make an Excel spreadsheet that proves Portland wins 62 games this year.

by jscot on Oct 14, 2009 3:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough. We can’t quite write off Greg as being a top 3 player on title team. And I actually think Batum has the best shot of being the third A of our current roster, but he’s at least a year or two off of getting there. I’m just saying you gotta be willing to trade the guys like Bayless, Rudy, etc. that you may really like but if can be flipped for a A veteran, if it’s avail. I’m not saying take on an old vet on his last legs (prolly wouldn’t want VC), but if he’s in mid-career (I would have taken Gerald Wallace or Richard Jefferson), then I think you gotta pull the trigger.

by WhatItDo on Oct 14, 2009 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and I forgot to say

Yes, it would be great to trade 2-3 B talents for an A talent. But who wants to make that deal?

Memphis already traded away their A talent.

But there’s also the fact that we have a lot of young B talents, and sometimes young B talents turn into As. So we may actually have those guys on the roster already. The problem is, we don’t know if we do or not….

I can tell you how to make an Excel spreadsheet that proves Portland wins 62 games this year.

by jscot on Oct 14, 2009 5:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Rodman was an A level talent purely on rebounding,

I think it prematurely inappropriate to dismiss Greg’s potential as less than Rodman’s.

Bedge or go home.

by Ojala John on Oct 14, 2009 7:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

AGREED! On Need For Consolodation! Dave say's complaining about "too much talent" is "silly..."

…and then uses the Lakers & Celtics to demonstrate the point…

…namely that other team have had more talent than us, and they’ve won the title…

…but I think there could be a failure to realize that these two teams were not “fictionalized ideals,” but prototype examples of what the Blazers need to do…our big problem is not “lack of experience…” but too many of those “almost playoff” caliber players…

…if you look at the Lakers, it’d be fair to say that Gasol roughly equals LMA, and for sake of argument, lets say this year Bynum = Oden. The problem for us is that the Lakers have consolidated talent because having Lamar Odom be able to play 18 minutes of Center, and 10 minutes of PF, is always better than us playing Pryz/Outlaw/Howard at those positions…if we’re not homers, he’s simply a better playerthan these guys, and his 28 minutes a game, willy typically be better than the 28 minutes a game Pryz/Outlaw/Howard play…

…those aren’t bad players, they’re solid, we’re deep, but we can’t constantly compare ourselves to the Grizzlies, Bulls, Heat, ect., if we are gonna compete for rings…we’ve gotta compare ourselves to the Lake Show, the Magic, ect.

Long story short, Celtics were the same story, look at their starting 5: Perkins, KG, Pierce, Allen, Rondo…

…if healthy, that’s a sick starting lineup…and generally speaking, that starting unit has (age of both teams may start to change this) been much better than our current starters…if Celtics starters beat ours for 38 minutes in the playoffs, and our bench beats theirs for 10 minutes…that’s not gonna cut it…

…we can rave and rave about our depth all we want, but teams with the most big guns in the top 7-8 or their rotation are going to be the big dogs of the playoffs…I really doubt the Lake Show is concerned about the 8 minutes Rudy will play at SG in the playoffs…

…and if you think they’re concerned about Rudy at the 2 getting more minutes, Roy at the 3…your kidding yourselves…the Lake Show will have Kobe & Artest at the 2 & 3, and whoever Rudy is guarding…will be licking their chops, not too mention I don’t want to see Artest posting Roy…

…not to be pessimistic, we’ve gotta great team, and I believe KP thinks we’ve gotta punchers chance this year, as do I, but…a move or two wouldn’t hurth though…

by irish3 on Oct 14, 2009 7:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Emphatic disagreement.

First off, Odom is a 3-4, not a 4-5.

Next, see my post below for my take on the general idea of “consolidation trades.” Consolidation trades make sense if you are playing “Fantasy League” ball. In the real world, it is damnably difficult to find a team that will trade away a proven, quality starter, let alone an All-Star player who isn’t well past their prime. In order to locate these kinds of trades you either have to get very lucky (Gasol for spare parts) or more likely you have to dangle an enormous amount of young talent in front of the opposing GM to get them to give up a proven, quality player. Overpaying for vets is not generally a good idea. It may make sense in certain specific situations for certain specific players. But you better be giving up on the right potential and acquiring the right vet, or you will live to regret it.

by upper left corner on Oct 14, 2009 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ahhhh, lol, I have to better realize every word gets picked apart here...

…in any event, Pau plays 18 minutes at C, Lamar plays those PF minutes, and then he plays 10 minutes for Pau at PF, same difference…

…the only other thing I’ll back off on is the “WE NEED…” to consolidate…I’ll reduce it to, “it would be incredibly helpful.” A lot of the problems arise that were already stated when facing the Lakers & Celtics, when you look at our “more evenly spread roster.”

I don’t recall saying we need to “overpay for vets,” is generally a good idea, but here’s one example of where it worked…

The Boston Celtics announced today that they have acquired 10-time All-Star and 2004 MVP Kevin Garnett from the Minnesota Timberwolves in exchange for Ryan Gomes, Gerald Green, Al Jefferson, Theo Ratliff, Sebastian Telfair, a 2009 first round draft pick (top three protected) and a return of Minnesota’s conditional first round draft pick previously obtained in the Ricky Davis-Wally Szczerbiak trade

Looks like a consolidation of talent…and it worked out…and it happened in the “real world.”

In any event, I am in agreement you just don’t “do it, to do it.” You better be right on your move…but we do have to realize that a pressure cooker is brewing…

…it’d be a shame to just lose a guy as talented as Outlaw to FA, without any compensation, simply because he wants playing time…it’d be sad to lose Blake in the same way…it’d be sad to watch Bayless waste away a third year, simply because we’re too deep…it’d be sad to watch Rudy do a lesser version (albeit, significantly lesser) of Capn Jack, and reduce his trade value because of his playing status in another year…and it’ll even be sad to see a player as talented as Rudy or Batum be a nonfactor in the playoffs simply because the guy he’s competing with for time is a hairs breath better than him…and I don’t care if Rudy or Nick gets those minutes…I still don’t know how we’ll deal with the Fish, Kobe, Artest, Gasol, Bynum combination in the playoffs…

…in any event, that’s my take

by irish3 on Oct 14, 2009 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My idea of a consolidation trade.....

……. is combining Trout and Blake’s expiring contracts and our remaining cap space from the Euro holds coming off to get a quality back-up 4 who is capable of playing the 5 in case of injury, foul trouble, or in the event Pryz opts out next summer.

To me, that strikes me as a doable trade that takes advantage of our expiring contracts, doesn’t get rid of our most promising young guys, and opens up the logjam a bit at the 1 and the 3. Obviously, such a trade would depend on Miller fitting well at the Point and Bayless showing enough in practice for the team to be comfortable with him on the floor 15 minutes a night (not certain at this point). It would also depend on finding a team who is willing to let go of a quality big man which is not an easy thing to find.

by upper left corner on Oct 15, 2009 4:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mychal Thompson was on Sacto's KHTK this morning.

He works for the Lakers now and he said the the Blazers are the team the Lakers are the most concerned about in the West. He said the Blazers are the only team that can match the Lakers bigs in size and skill. Referencing how the Lakers struggle to win in Portland, he added, “They’d better make sure they get home-court advantage over the Blazers in the playoffs.”

by MiledAnimal on Oct 15, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gotta pile on here. In general, I hate "consolidation trades."

I disagree with you emphatically.

First off, your rating of Oden and LMA is entirely premature. “A” level players become “A” level players over the course of a career. Characterizing Oden as having a “B” ceiling at the beginning of his sophomore year, while coming off major injury, at the age of twenty one, makes absolutely no sense to me. This is particularly true in today’s environment of “one and done” college careers. In the old days, LMA would be entering his second season, GO would still be at Columbus. Patience, patience, patience.

Secondly, the whole concept of “consolidation trades” needs to be questioned. The basic idea of trading two or three young players for a generally aging All-Star isn’t a path to glory. It is very short sighted unless you get exactly the right guy who fits an obvious hole on your roster. Usually the aging All-Star is running on fumes and quickly begins to loose production, frequently aging All-Star has a big ego and has trouble fitting in with their new team. Meanwhile the guys you trade away are improving and will continue to be productive long after the All-Star has hung up his sneakers.

There are very specific situations where this kind of trade makes sense, but I would be willing to bet my mortgage payment that the number of such trades that end up being a failure far exceeds the number that improve the trading team. For every “spare parts for Pau Gasol” trade out their, there are five lousy ones where the incoming player doesn’t fit and fails to produce. KP has resisted the urge to make this kind of trade, and I think he should be applauded for knowing when to hold them as much as he has been for knowing when to get aggressive.

This doesn’t mean that a team doesn’t need savvy vets, it does. It means that savvy vets can be acquired more cheaply through free agency. If you have an outstanding young core and have proven that you are in the hunt for a Championship, aging vets will come to you and sign for less for a shot at a ring. Portland isn’t there yet, but by next season we likely will be. Watch what kind of player the Blazers are able to land with their MLE next summer. I bet it will be someone very good.

Overpaying for post-prime vets is more likely a path back to mediocrity than a sure path to a Championship.

by upper left corner on Oct 14, 2009 8:01 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Talk to the Celtics about whether consolidating talent can bring you success

Converting Gomes, Jefferson, Telfair, an expiring and a couple first rounders into Kevin Garnett, and Jeff Green, Wally, and Delonte West into Ray Allen seemed to work out pretty well for them, despite having to pick up Eddie House, Scot Pollard, PJ Brown, Sam Cassell and James Posey off the scrap heap to flesh out the roster.

by Royster on Oct 14, 2009 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How long will the Celtics be at the top?

They had one “magical” season. Now they are old. At best, they may have one more shot. Then they are going to settle back into mediocrity.

KG down
Allen down
RW running on fumes

They will no doubt try to rebuild on the fly around Pierce and Rondo, but they are unlikely to get it right before Pierce is on the down-slope too. Is this what you want for the Blazers? No thanks.

by upper left corner on Oct 14, 2009 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They won a title, that's what counts

Who’s happier with the last decade, Mavs fans, Suns fans, or Celtics fans?

by Royster on Oct 14, 2009 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would rather do it the way San Antonio did

You mean, drafting DeJuan Blair and making a consolidation deal for Richard Jefferson

I know, it’s apples and oranges. The Suprs are a veteran team and the Blazers are young and building, I get that. BUt I also bet if I had the time to search back in the transactions wire that along the way the Spurs traded some young of their talent for a veteran, or two. Especially if that young talent didn’t “fit right” with coach Pop’s program. They certainly haven’t kept the same 10 guys together for 10 years, if anything, they have had a core of Duncan-Parker-Ginobli and built around that

And this is predtty much the same thing that some of us are suggesting that KP do with Roy-LMA-Oden. The Blazers brass needs to determine which players will play well alongside this core and who will accept a role. So far, I give a thumb’s up to Blake and Przy, and probably Batum. But the rest of them are on the bubble, and it’s not “talent” that will seperate the keepers from the non-keepers, it’s how well they mesh with those core players, and what skills and BBIQ they bring to the table that will help the team win playoff series

When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Oct 14, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We will see how long Blair's knees hold-up to the rigors of the NBA, not a bad gamble on SA's part

Two of the three players SA traded for Jefferson were old guys on expiring contracts. That is a lot different than trading three young talents for an aging vet.

by upper left corner on Oct 14, 2009 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

At least lets give this team a chance to develop it's core.

Instead we’ve had people calling for trades almost from day 1 of last season.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Oct 14, 2009 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was no consolidation trade

The Jefferson “trade” was a pure salary dump.

"Either way we have two phenomenal units. I'm excited to play with either one." - Martell Webster

by lee3022 on Oct 14, 2009 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"They won a title, that's what counts"

Only if you think cheering for KG qualifies as a good time.

But, in fact, it’s not the only thing that counts. The journey counts, the process counts.

I watch the games all season long because I enjoy each one. I don’t just wait for one big orgasm every 10 years or so.

by raoulduke on Oct 14, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

Yeah, 2007-2008

was a rough year after they decided to not play any of the season and just hand the Celtics the trophy in October. It must have sucked to be a Celtics fan.

On the flip side, 2000 was pretty easy on me, since they decided before the season that we weren’t good enough to win a title after we got Pippen and Smith and so the Blazers didn’t have to bother playing any games.

by Royster on Oct 14, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another rec.

I have never understood the sort of fan – and there appear to be a good number of them here – who only thinks it matters if a team wins a championship. As I’ve stated before, that’s a good goal for the players, but it should not be one for the fans. Having your team win a title should be considered a gift and a reward for following them, not your God given right.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Oct 14, 2009 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have gotten a lot of enjoyment out of following the team for the past 32 years

We haven’t won a single title in that time period, but I wouldn’t trade the enjoyment I have experienced. You said it perfectly timg56,

Having your team win a title should be considered a gift and a reward for following them, not your God given right.

Being in contention and feeling good about the organization is wonderful. I hated the dark years because I didn’t feel good about the organization or the players.

by upper left corner on Oct 14, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've been a Blazer fan for 20 years and have gotten loads of ...

… enjoyment watching them. Enough to easily last me through the down years of the not too distant past (a period that was much shorter than a lot of fans seem to represent).

I’m still a Redskins and Orioles fan. I can tell you about dysfunctional owners and years and years of losing (12 straight now for the O’s). But I’m still a fan. I remember walking to Memorial Stadium on crutches in 83 to see my first WS game. And I remember all the Superbowls the Skins made it into. If either team never wins another title, so be it. I’ll be happy just seeing them play good ball. (Which ain’t happening at the moment.)

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Oct 14, 2009 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There are some fans in every sport who look for the dynasty - changing teams to catch that

Those fans feel betrayed if their selected team does not win the championship.(not that anyone here would be that fan!)

And other fans who follow their teams through ups a downs.

Your proofs are excellent ones. Since Cal Ripken retired the Orioles have been relegated to playing for third or fourth in the division.

As a Redskin fan that annual win over the Cowboys must take much of the sting out of the season?

"Either way we have two phenomenal units. I'm excited to play with either one." - Martell Webster

by lee3022 on Oct 14, 2009 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The way the skins are playing ...

… I’m not counting on any wins against Dallas. They lost to the Lions for cripes sake.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Oct 15, 2009 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's nice, but you ignore one important fact.

In the case of KG, they had the good fortune to have a Minnesota team that was looking to move KG, with them having one of the few attractive packages.

The same was true with Gasol and the Lakers. Now if you know for sure that there is a team out there looking to move their all-star or lose him, then maybe you have a point. Unless you point to the Suns and Amare. That’s a deal for suckers.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Oct 14, 2009 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, I don't mean to say it always works,

just that picking up those “running on fumes” vets works a lot more than you make it out to. The Pistons picking up Sheed, The Rockets trading for Clyde, us trading for Pippen, Miami trading for Shaq, Cassell to the Wolves and Clips have all also been key parts to either championship teams, or by far the best postseasons that a franchise has had in the last 25 years, all of them acquired on the wrong side of 30.

by Royster on Oct 14, 2009 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you can get them as free agent bargains, great.

My problem is trading loads of young potential for aging vets. Again, I am not being categorical. There are specific situations were trading for just the right player can put you over the top. But I think it requires good luck, good timing, and an ability to carefully evaluate need and fit.

A lot of the consolidation trade proposed around here are just blather because the other team has to be in a position to trade their proven talent; has to covet the guys that you see as tradable; and it all has to work under the CBA guidelines. Those kind of deals don’t grow on trees. That is why folks need to be patient with KP.

We may have an opportunity to improve our team without giving up loads of young talent. If we could get the right PG for Blake, Travis, and maybe Bayless, I would be all for it, or maybe the right 4-5 back-up without Bayless. When we have as much young. improving talent, a lot of our needs are simply going to be met by showing a little patience. By next season I think Oden will be an All-Star level center. I expect either Webster, or more likely Batum, to be exactly the kind of role players we need around the big three.

Really, the only places where I think this team needs substantial improvement is at back-up 4-5, and most importantly a long term starter at the Point.

by upper left corner on Oct 14, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are my hero and this should be rec'd until it is green.

I just love watching people tell us what level of talent we have when we are talking about a team full of young players with 3 or fewer years in the league.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Oct 14, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Perfect Solution

If having too much talent is really a problem I have an easy fix: Sign me to the final roster spot. I’m 5’6 and I’ll have to bring an inhaler to practice. This should offset the wealth of ability and skill already present to balance the roster at the perfect talent level. I’m fine with the MLE, we’ll renegotiate after my rookie year anyway.

by JonathanPDX on Oct 14, 2009 2:58 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

+1 for all these points...

…but -1 for placing K*be on the Blazers, even in a hypothetical scenario. Not cool.

Portland Trail Blazers, Future World Champions 2010-2021.

by Majikj0n on Oct 14, 2009 6:26 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Too much Talent

To Much talent should not be a problem as long as all of the players understand that a ring is much more valuble then a stat sheet, It is on Nate McMillan to make sure the players understand that and if for some reason he can not and we take a step backwards, well he is in a contract year.

On a side note regarding Nate – what is with the “my door is always open” comments Im sorry but if you have players (Sergio, Miller) who are spouting off to the media and your not involved before hand there is a problem, a good coach should here about problems way before it reaches the paper and seek out the player to resolve it, not wait for him to come to you.

Trade players for picks and draft Cole Aldrich 2010

by jlarose78 on Oct 14, 2009 7:08 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Disagree - these players seem to vent because they have understood that their talent is not enough to earn what they want here

It is not the job of a coach to coax out of players what they are dreaming about. I cannot imagine Red Aurebach doing that and Phil Jackson apparently does not qualify because K@be vented to others as did MJ. It is not productive for a coach to be a “players’ coach” – too many shipwrecks have occurred. The discipline must come from the leader on the team. Brandon, if he is to become that leader, must be the sounding board and if anything is needed to change for the coach, Brandon has his ear. Brandon has vented as well but this is his prerogative since he is the leader. It is disappointing that Brandon did not start with Nate but he is young and he will learn.

"Either way we have two phenomenal units. I'm excited to play with either one." - Martell Webster

by lee3022 on Oct 14, 2009 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Coaching Problem v Management Problem

I agree with you completely: we have a fuzz problem rather than a talent problem.

But I also agree with you in that it is playing time and experience that become the “fuzzbusters” for the team.

To me, this then becomes a management problem. The issue is that management, at some point, needs to have the courage to commit to certain players and allow the fuzzbusting to take place.

Case-in-point is Travis Outlaw (of whom I am sort of a “fan with misgivings”). He is talented, no question. He is provocatively talented and makes big shots. But, in my mind, management failed to commit to him in a way that put him through the crucible to his detriment in development as a player.

The same could be said of Sergio (of whom I was a fan). We waited too long to commit to the trade to the detriment of his trade value (I was astonished that he wasn’t worth more and I think most would agree his trade value was much higher years ago).

The way Blazer management stockpiles talent is a breathtaking example of their skill in assessing player potential.

But I argue that they tend to hang on to these players too long. They are reluctant to give up talent. It is as if the Curse of Jermaine O’Neal was not that we lost out on a player but rather that the FEAR of having it happen again has poisoned the organization’s ability to commit to either trade or keep players on the roster.

During the Sergio wars, I remember not so much warring over talent (though there was plenty) but people literally begging the organization to CHOOSE one way or the other.

I see similar issues with Outlaw/Webster/Batum… some argument over talent but more that people simply want the Blazers to CHOOSE one way or the other.

Coaching cannot really resovle this problem. I believe in Nate’s ability to coach and motivate (I once doubted but am now a believer). I think where the organization needs to improve is in its ability to sooner choose a path rather than let indecision and fear over a wrong decision paralyze growth.

This is a common problem in business but one I think KP and Co can overcome.

On an unrelated note: I am getting rather profoundly irritated with all the ads on SB Nation. I support BEdge and the SBNation in concept but it’s really getting hard to navigate. Is there some stuff I can turn off?

Buck Williams for the hall of fame

by Phizbin on Oct 14, 2009 7:24 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

people simply want the Blazers to CHOOSE one way or the other.

I know I’m in this camp, and the “cake bakers” are on the other side of the fence.

Last year at this time, we were told (by KP, and maybe Nate) that 2009-10 was going to be a developmental year, and the front office was going to evaluate which players were keepers. I guess they “made up their minds” about Sergio and Frye, but left the wing decisions for later.

This was probably due to Webster’s injury, but I doubt that there’s anything about Outlaw’s game that the coaches and the scouts don’t already know, especially after they watched the playoff series against the Rockets. We know that KP was “considering” adding Hedo and MIllsap, so it would appear that “the decision” was made on travis last July, except that now it’s “on hold” because those FA offers weren’t accepted. This puts #25 in limbo, at a time where he needs to play well to earn his “out of this world” money.

As much as KP and Nate try to say “there’s nothing to see here, move along” veteran sportswriters like Jaynes and Vance know the score: you can’t have too many young veterans competing for minutes, and not expect there to be a problem with their “fuzzy” roles. If you want to shoot the messenger and say that Dwight and Kenny are idiots and not worth listening to, go right on ahead. But don’t forget that they warned you, the next time one of these talented kids makes a trade “request” through his agent.

It wouldn’t be the first time

When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Oct 14, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's been said before... many times... but winning puts a lid on PT complaints.

Players know better than to rock a boat that’s making rapid forward progress. We’re in no danger of becoming Golden State.

by MiledAnimal on Oct 14, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent point about Outlaw...

I hadn’t considered it in that light but the way you phrase it makes it seem very clear (even obvious).

Still, I want to argue that mgmt was, perhaps, a bit overly hesitant with deciding on playesr.

Buck Williams for the hall of fame

by Phizbin on Oct 14, 2009 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I remember that comment as pertaining to 2008-2009

Frye had to prove himself last year as his contract was up. Sergio has found himself moving to a bottom-level team and now being 3rd point guard. So your assessment may not be shared by Sacramento either.

There was genuine surprise registered by KP and Nate over getting to the 54 win stage a year early. So that may have been the source of your information but having gotten to this stage it is time to go all out for wins as Dave and Ben have so ably demonstrated in their analyses.

Travis has pretty much demonstrated he is not a high level 3. He could not displace Nic, even having the advantage of starting first and Nic a rookie. I don’t see that he is stunted from not playing. He is stunted from being a superb scorer in one-on-one basketball but being limited in the team game – especially in team defense (not unlike Z-Bo). More playing time might have helped his development or, as young as he is, might have damaged him irreparably. Those decisions are professionally made by KP and Nate and their staffs.

There are not many here that morn Sergio or Channing and most wish them well as they move to their new teams. They each have an opportunity to reestablish themselves but I think they are in better places for both the players and this team.

"Either way we have two phenomenal units. I'm excited to play with either one." - Martell Webster

by lee3022 on Oct 14, 2009 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe not too much talent

But certainly too much young talent — which feeds into the “fuzziness” issue.

This team is busting at the seams with guys who have not yet established themselves and have not guaranteed themselves their next contract, not getting consistent minutes in that situation is going to cause some otherwise good character guys to begin to get a little “itchy” under the collar.

KP has got to start not only consolidating some of this talent into possibly a single better player, but the mix of ages on this team seems all wrong to me. It needs more Imes and Howards and less Baylesses and Rudys (not that there’s anything wrong with Bayless or Rudy individually).

by nikolokolus on Oct 14, 2009 8:34 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

KP was never a chemistry major...

or was that Bob Whitsit?

"We didn't start the fire. It was always burning. Since the world's been turning." - E. E. Cummings

by Sexual Tyrannosaurus on Oct 14, 2009 8:43 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Great Observations Dave...

Which can be abbreviated as G.O.D. by the way.

I agree with the point that we actually don’t have TMT, and that we are stacked with B level “Fuzzy” players. I definitely think that some roles will be defined as the season progresses so we won’t have too much of a logjam as we do currently. I’m pretty optimistic that the Blazers will find their rhythm before the start of the season. The only player that I’m concerned with is Rudy. I love having him on our team, but I fear he might be getting a touch of the Sergio Syndrome (unsatisfied with his role).

"We're going to play the right way. It ain't about you. It's about us. We can be successful if we play together. And that's what it's about. In this league, playing hard, playing together. Your numbers shouldn't matter. If we're not winning then you can say some things. But if we do it the right way, we should win, and you still shouldn't say anything." - Nate McMillan

by blazerbeliever on Oct 14, 2009 8:50 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

As I see it...

If the ‘92 Olympic team didn’t have have too much, then this team doesn’t have too much talent.

by AverageJon on Oct 14, 2009 8:53 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice analogy but all but one of those players were already developed and All-Stars

Now perhaps some were yelling in those days about the lack of development opportunity for Christian Laettner but they likely were not heard by many and ignored by those hearing. Christian did subsequently manage to play 13 productive years for 6 teams and likely has a place in his home reserved for the ’92 Olympic team glory!

But I still mostly agree with your point.

"Either way we have two phenomenal units. I'm excited to play with either one." - Martell Webster

by lee3022 on Oct 14, 2009 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

sigh

You nailed it on it’s head Dave.

this drama is becoming a “blah blah blah” to me.

Andre miller drama
who will start at SF
Who will start at C
We have too much talent

For whatever reason it seems like silly stupid things are becoming a stick figures running around screaming “oh nooooeeeeees” as the world ends.

I really wanted to watch some preseason games, but honestly… with fans and media reacting as they have this summer… I wouldn’t air it either. People might not realize it’s preseason and sometimes you lose to see what you have. Then we’d have to play the allen iverson “we’re talking about PRE-SEASON people!”

of course, pointing out to blazer fans and stating “omg… you guys are unreasonable whack jobs!” wouldn’t endear blazer management to fans, so they simply didn’t budget and can’t afford it. Okay, that’s probably not what happened, but if it was I couldn’t blame them.

I really can’t wait until the season starts and we can watch some games. the mountains out of mole hills is wearing on me as a blazer fan to the point that I feel like clicking all blazer news off.

"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.

But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html

"I told Pau the Lakers never win here in Portland; I think it's great." -- Rudy Fernandez

by ratbastird on Oct 14, 2009 9:41 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Also

instead of tearing players down and disliking what we don’t have, maybe people should try being fans and appreciate what we do have.

Nate has his flaws, but he’s a pretty good coach
KP didn’t get an A+ all star during free agency, but he got a pretty good point guard
Andre Miller is a pretty good point guard
Steve Blake has helped carry this team in bad times, and has his flaws but is steady.
Outlaw is pretty darn good at what he does well and has helped the team win games.
Rudy is fun to watch even if he has room to develop.
Batum is fun to watch and cute (even if we’re not allowed to call our cheerleaders cute because THAT would be objectifying) and has promise.
Webster is unknown and exciting
Oden is still raw but shows signs that he can be what we want.
Joel is just a mans man.
Roy is selfish but is the guy you want to be selfish. (i joke i joke i keed i keed)
Aldridge keeps getting better
Bayless is fun to keep comparing to Rex even if he still needs to develop to break the rotation.

The blazers are a pretty neat team and someone is doing quite well putting this package together. They don’t deserve all the conflict, harsh words, and panicking. They have a plan and they don’t have to share it with use, because frankly that’d be stupid. They have shown they know what they’re doing and really the only thing that management and the players should be hearing from fans is “thank you”.

You know… at LEAST until the season starts.

"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.

But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html

"I told Pau the Lakers never win here in Portland; I think it's great." -- Rudy Fernandez

by ratbastird on Oct 14, 2009 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

He is inadvertantly arguing that the PTB's have too much talent...

When he acknowledges that there are many players at different positions who are worthy of significant playing time, perhaps more than they are receiving. If not, you have players who aren’t good enough to command significant minutes. Right now, they have one great player and a bunch of good or soon-to-be good players.

One guy, while arguing for Miller to start, mentioned that the team didn’t win all 54 games with the same starting lineup. True. Why did they win the ones where they started second unit players? Because they had guys who were good enough to fill the starters’ shoes for stretches. Say LMA gets injured. Someone needs to step in. If the ‘herd has been thinned’, you have to put in a scrub. Also, with a key player injured, another key player, like BRoy, has to shoulder more of the burden by playing more minutes and/or picking up the slack in terms of scoring. You might get additional scoring from Travis Outlaw, but with him gone and Joe Schmoe journeyman in the lineup…you get the idea. This continues even after said injured player returns because he needs time to get back in top form after missing X amount of games. It doesn’t bode well for the playoffs because the guy who isn’t injured experiences more wear and tear throughout the season.

by Benjamanic on Oct 14, 2009 10:25 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree...

I absolutely agree with Dave’s comments and observations in regards to this team and our supposed too much talent “problem”. I think sports writers and fans sometimes just get lazy and say Portland might have too much talent, when they aren’t really analyzing the individual players or the entire roster. Because to me, it’s just wrong to say you have too much talent in most cases, to simplfy I think you can have too much “depth” and dealing with the depth of a roster can become problematic. But talent? not a problem.

To boil it down to even a simpler level, when you are rebuilding or building a team what is it that every GM in the league wants? Talent. It’s easy to spot teams that don’t have enough talent just look at the bottom of the standings. The Blazers have been there and not so long ago. It’s much much better to be debating the development of Oden and the value of Joel Przybilla than talking about the “potential” of a Ha Seung-Jin. I’ll take the Oden/Przybilla situation 100 times out of 100.

So if you recognize that in building a team, talent is the most valuable resource, then the debate really becomes can you be too fuzzy, (as Dave puts it) or have too much duplicative depth? My feeling is yes. It’s not a new problem for The Blazers as many of the Whitsitt incarnations IMO had similar depth problems. I remember unhappy Detlef Shrempfs, disgruntled twilight Rod Stricklands and Blazer benches that became hard benches of discontent. I think most of the Whitsitt failures in chemistry had clearer defined starting units and more experience but similar in that we had players at various stages of their careers on the bench that felt they could or should be contributing more and getting more opportunity. This is often a dangerous recipee.

I think one of the biggest story lines to watch this upcoming season will be the breakdown of roles, and how accepting of them players become. We’ve already seen at least potential cracks, with Andre Miller expressing discontent at the mere idea he might not be a starter and McMillan taking Brandon and Aldridge aside and assuring them not to worry that come the regular season more of our offense will be run through them.

Too much talent? Never. Too much depth? Possibly. Big headache for McMillan? Definently.

"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"

by Krang on Oct 14, 2009 10:27 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

BRING ON THE REGULAR SEASON!!

Being a Native Oregonian and having grown up with little pinwheel tattoos on each blood cell coursing through my veins and arteries, I have in the past had a tenancy to be entirely TOO into the Blazers. I remember 19 year old me creating a spreadsheet that statistically proved Jermaine O’neal needed more PT, and PJ was going to kill his development. Just because I was right then doesn’t mean I was always right. Our one horse town might be guilty of getting a little too amped up about having too much talent. Lets all calm down and wait for the season to kick into gear, and stop looking for things to freak out about. We could have a REAL problem like Greg blows out his other knee (knocking on wood…..)

Fine, the OLP album grew on me. It's defiantly change.

by SuperDave on Oct 14, 2009 11:14 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

My question is: did you feel it in your blood cells when they "tilted" the pinwheel?

(I kid)

"Either way we have two phenomenal units. I'm excited to play with either one." - Martell Webster

by lee3022 on Oct 14, 2009 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's more just an issue of writers

using “too much talent” as shorthand for “too many talented players”. Obviously you can never have too much talent, but it’s the distribution of it that matters. The NBA has always been largely a league about the best individual players, and if your top three to four guys are better than the other team’s top three to four guys, you’re probably going to win in the playoffs. The next three to four guys have a lesser impact, but the same principle.

Our top four guys are good, and potentially great, but nothing special compared to the other top teams. Same with the next three or four guys, although they’d probably be considered significantly better than their counterparts on most other top team’s. However, the disparity that possibly leads us to have significantly more talent is in the 9-12 range. Currently, that’d be Blake, Webster/Batum, Howard, and Bayless. Compare that to the Lakers, where the 9-12 spots comprised Farmar/Brown, Walton, Powell, and Mbenga. All of our guys would start on a mid to lower-tier NBA team right now, while you could only really say that about Walton on the Lakers (Brown couldn’t even scrape minutes in Charlotte, so I can’t include him).

So the one area that we have a major talent advantage is the area that doesn’t matter. I agree with the idea of fuzziness issue Dave touches upon, but at the same time, if it’s possible to upgrade at one of the more important 1-4 or 4-8 spots by sacrificing our talent advantage at 9-12, that will probably lead to more wins.

by Royster on Oct 14, 2009 11:16 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice.

Going to start calling Nate the “Fuzzbuster.” Good moniker for him. Much better than “sarge.”

Buck Williams for the hall of fame

by Phizbin on Oct 14, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Consolidation vs. Baking the Cake?

Baking requires blending distinct and diverse ingredients into a solution uniform in color and texture. That mix is then greased and baked at high temperature until it rises. It is then usually frosted with another creamy, sweet confection to accentuate and enhance the core. Depending on the type of cake and those eating it – the cake is nothing without the frosting.

Consolidation is simply a different recipe for another cake. Consolidation means the cake is a 6 or 8 ingredient recipe instead of a 12-ingredient recipe. The fewer ingredients might mean it is more consistent, is easier to prepare – or it might mean that double dutch chocolate with coconut and walnut accents was given up in favor of vanilla with hints of cinnamon.

Maybe the cinnamon coffee cake wins the blue ribbon, or maybe the rich chocolate would have been the winner. It’s all a matter of tast and expertise in baking – because many flavors of cake are outstanding and indispensable to my palate.

by blacknoiseNW on Oct 14, 2009 4:09 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I started to say "way to go Dave" ...

… as I’ve heard enough of the fans who apparently can only see the doom and gloom side of things and who believe that “fixing” the problem is as easy as going to Trade Machine and coming up with a deal that works.

But then you started drifting into fuzziness. All I can say is “Have a little faith.” Let this team play and see what happens. They surprised us 2 years ago with the Streak and again last year by being better sooner than we expected. I have every reason to believe they are going to surprise us again, even with our raised expectations. I have very few reasons to believe this team is headed for trouble because we have two many players, fuzzily defined or not.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Oct 14, 2009 4:19 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Fuzzy thinking or fuzzy players?

I personally come down on the side of letting the play on the court and the need of the individual game determine the playing time. I trust Nate and staff to do just what he says they are doing. It is not coincidental that Coach Bill Self (Kansas – my other BB team) says exactly the same thing in much the same situation. If it were really such a problem would Millsap sign here to be a backup? Would Hedo even consider coming knowing he adds to the congestion? Would Miller sign if he were not confident that he would earn the time? OK – Miller has expressed doubts this week but at signing he seemed and sounded absolutely certain.

The players and the coaches know who are the better players. If a particular player helps us win the championship they know he will be on the floor at the right time. The problem of too much talent really raises its head on teams who know they will not win the championship and then the players are looking for individual achievement and rewards. I don’t think it is as fuzzy to them. Each likely has some part of the game that he does better than his competition. Each has weakness that may be covered by his competition. Together they can win and individually they will just be players. I do trust that Nate and KP have instilled that from the beginning. Two individuals that have had a problem with this are Sergio and Andre. Sergio insisted on being signed after being drafted, although the team believed he would benefit from playing in Spain more. The team was correct. Andre has not been part of the team and had not yet been integrated into the team (maybe never will be). It is on Andre to “get it” and I think he will. So the playing time is on the practice floor and, when earned there, needs to be reproduced in the game. Anyone who fails there might claim they need more time in games but that seems like fuzzy thinking to me.

"Either way we have two phenomenal units. I'm excited to play with either one." - Martell Webster

by lee3022 on Oct 14, 2009 7:39 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

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Is Roy a Good Teammate?
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Just Another Junk In The Wall:  11-18-09
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Blazers Edge Community Podcast Episode 008
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Why is the Blazers’ offense bad this year? Why is the defense so good?
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Photos from the Hawks game, 11/16/2009

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Rotation...Oden
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Tough act to follow junk Nov.19
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Nate? Avery? Adelman?
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How would Ellis fit?
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Oden's minutes compared with other centers in the last 25 years
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Prayers are with you P. A.

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FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

A modest proposal: Fire Mike Rice and Antonio Harvey!
For Ann, and Travis.
FREE GREG ODEN
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Greg Oden with a Kimbo Slice/Baron Davis beard. What do you think?
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Charles Oakley to the Blazers? He says there are talks
Lamarcus: The King Cobra?
Surprising Stats from Basketball-Reference
Oden #5 and Rudy #9 ranked soph espn.com
NYT: The Pick-And-Roll is the NBA's Old Reliable
At this point, what the Blazers want most is rebounding. That was an...

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