Today's Poll -- Bayless Value Edition
by Ben Golliver on Jan 6, 2009 1:15 PM PST
Email
PrintOne aspect of the David Lee trade rumors I didn't foresee was Jerryd Bayless's name gettting tossed around. It was, what, like seven months that he was dominating Summer League? Seems like yesterday. Given JB's lack of regular season playing time, his age, and his skill set, not to mention his Face, I would have thought there were at least 7 guys on our roster more likely to get moved (or be mentioned in rumors) than JB. I wrote yesterday, JB "leaves over my dead body"; some of you agreed, but, to my surprise, some of you didn't.
The David Lee talk -- expertly put to bed by Quick -- is now the second time Jerryd's name has come up this season. Who can forget the Chris Broussard incident? Maybe that's because it's hard for people to imagine his talent being bottled up on the bench? Maybe it's something else.
So, I've asked this question about Sergio before; it's only right and fair that I ask it about his backup as well.
Vote and then talk the current and future value of Jerryd Bayless in the comments. Would you include him in a deal if it landed an All Star? Who are some names you'd need to see coming back? Or, do you feel that he's the type of player that could retire as a Blazer?
-- Ben (benjamin.golliver@gmail.com)
264 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
First
I would ask for a Star player….then role player….then pick
Homer: "Yikes....a bear is eating my father!!"
Selma: "I'm Selma"
Homer: "A talking bear is eating my father!!"
MY DEAD BODY is the winner
Bayless stays in Portland for a long and productive career. You da man JBay.
The question we should really ponder is not why al-Zeidi could be so impolite as to throw his shoes at Bush, but why the dozens of other shoes in the room remained on people's feet, why no foot odor ever purifies the air at a White House press conference, why a man who throws his shoes at our president is more popular than our president himself.
Bayless for Lebron and cash from Cleveland.
by tmundal on Jan 6, 2009 1:23 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
That's pathetic
We should get a first rounder, too.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
I'd hate to see him go
but if it was somehting that could get the Blazers a young, bona fide strarting PG/draft pick (Rubio scenario), I’d say okay. Basically, I’d do anything within reason if it netted Ricky Rubio
Bayless has been testing the fences for weaknesses
you mean Rufio?
Ru-fi-o! Ru-fi-o!
"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car"
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Jan 6, 2009 1:36 PM PST up reply actions
umm
who is Rufio?
The question we should really ponder is not why al-Zeidi could be so impolite as to throw his shoes at Bush, but why the dozens of other shoes in the room remained on people's feet, why no foot odor ever purifies the air at a White House press conference, why a man who throws his shoes at our president is more popular than our president himself.
a character in the Peter Pan movie that Robin Williams was in
"She turned me into a newt!
A newt?
...I got better."
You know that scene in Shrek 2
where Shrek and Fiona grab a bunch of pixies and stuff ’em in a lantern, then get in the tub together and start passing gas, causing the pixies to drop dead?
That’s what ought to be done to Julia Roberts after her role in Hook.
But you gotta love Dustin Hoffman’s explanation of why parents read to their children before bedtime.
by EngineerScotty on Jan 6, 2009 3:22 PM PST up reply actions
If I had kids, I would be tempted by that very reasoning I have to admit.
"She turned me into a newt!
A newt?
...I got better."
peter pan refrence from anothr thred
December 18, 2008.
"Roy is Roy, and if I were to bet my life on a game of 5-on-5, I’d bet on whichever team Roy was playing on." by HurraKane212
Were you watching that last night also?
Stupid roommate kept flipping to hook and chanting rufio’s name
For the record
In case I have never mentioned it before, I hate Rufio and everything he stands for.
Rufio, please die in a car crash caused by you getting a call on your cell phone from a doctor saying your family has AIDs.
Sincerely,
Mortimer
hahahahahaha, thats so messt up
December 18, 2008.
"Roy is Roy, and if I were to bet my life on a game of 5-on-5, I’d bet on whichever team Roy was playing on." by HurraKane212
agreed
anything for ricky rubio. I’d give my left nut if need be
supply and demand
There are a lot of young, undersized, scoring guards who don’t poses the skills necessary to run an offense super efficiently. Until Bayless adds another dimension to his game he’s going to be worth about the same as guys like Russel Westbrook, Eric Gordon, Jarret Jack, and Raymond Felton.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jan 6, 2009 1:27 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
That is how I feel too.
-Shad
"If a doctor ever gives me six months to live, I want it in basketball time." - Marc Acito
But...
Our real needs aren’t on offense, they’re on defense. Bayless has the intensity and athleticism to become the superb perimeter defender we’re so sorely lacking this year.
I start to salivate when I think about Bayless, Batum, and Oden growing up under Nate’s tutelage. Let LMA and Roy handle the scoring; those guys will keep the other team from scoring.
by LicketyBrindle on Jan 6, 2009 2:34 PM PST up reply actions
:::Bangs head on desk:::
Absolutely nothing about Bayless’ play this year or his play in college would or could possibly lead one to believe he’ll be anything more than an average NBA defender. And actually, from the evidence, you’d have to assume he’ll be a very poor defender. He was pathetic defensively at Arizona, and that was against college level competition. In the NBA he has fared little better. Athleticism is great, but look around the league at all the hyper-athletic players that stink on D (we have one of our very own in Trout). Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Tony Parker, Monta Ellis, Leandro Barbosa, T.J. Ford… the list goes on and on and on….
Stop banging your head
long enough to tell us, what is required to make someone a good defensive player?
Well, I’ll tell us just in case you damaged your head and can’t.
1) Sufficient size. Check.
2) Sufficient lateral quickness. Check.
3) Reach/wingspan. Not great, but not horrible.
4) Desire, and desire, and desire. Check.
5) Good defensive technique. This can be learned.
6) Good defensive court awareness. This can be learned to some extent, if it isn’t present already.
7) Coachability. Check.
8) Desire/Work Ethic/Desire/Work Ethic/Desire. Check.
There is nothing about Bayless’ play this year to believe that he IS more than an average NBA defender. There is much about his athleticism AND personality to indicate that he will be much more than that.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
Good wingspan
matters a lot more on interior players, somewhat on wings, much less on PGs.
If you have good wingspan as a PG it is a plus to your defense (better chance to deflect passes), but lacking it isn’t really much hindrance. The main thing is lateral quickness.
If choosing a defensive PG, wingspan is probably about the least important thing. Height comes second.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
"Reach/wingspan. Not great, but not horrible"
I have never seen anyone with less wingspan than Rex.
Boomshakalaka
Monta Ellis
Bayless has a 6’3.5" wingspan. 6’3" tall in shoes, 6’1.75 without.
Monta has a 6’2.75" wingspan, and is a half inch TALLER than Bayless with or without shoes.
So, Bayless is a touch shorter, but has longer arms. And really, his arms are just “normal” length, not horrible. His buffness of his arms make his arms look shorter, for sure.
He does not have a good wingspan for a NBA player, but I don’t think it really limits him. Barbosa’s 7 foot wingspan doesn’t make any worth anything defensively, and Monta doesn’t play defense because he doesn’t use his body and play defense. Bayless has a big, thick body and moves super quick as well. Staying in front of his guy is what will make him a good defender, with strength to muscle up any of the water bug quick PGs.
Chris Paul has less than a inch more wingspan than Bayless, and is less than 2 inches shorter. Bayless has 4 inches over Paul on the standing reach. Paul’s short arms still allow him to get steals too.
Just for fun, check out JJ Reddick’s wingspan… he’s one of the few guys whose arms are actually shorter than his height.
Obviously I would rather Bayless had Eric Gordon’s 6’9" wingspan, but I’ll take super duper quickness and strength and athleticism over wingspan— especially when his arms are still longer than his body.
Mortimer
ok, I exagerrated a bit
I still think BEdgers are being a tough optimistic when hoping for great (or even good) D from Bayless.
Boomshakalaka
Why come?
If ya think it’s cause of wingspan, I think it’s a me-me like saying PHX was awful defensively under D’Antoni.
Athleticism and effort, Bayless has it. Toughness and strength. If he wants to be, he’ll be a good defender.
Morty
An addendum
A guy of Bayless’ thickness and size is usually outquicked by the TJ Fords of the NBA.
A guy of Bayless’ quickness is usually outmuscled by the Baron Davis’ of the NBA.
If you combine those two qualities, that’s a great start to making a good defensive player.
Better wingspan would always help, but there are a billion players with amazing wingspan but not the quickness or toughness to play defense.
Mort.
"Athleticism and effort, Bayless has it. Toughness and strength."
I’m with you until here.
“If he wants to be, he’ll be a good defender.”
That’s where you lose me. There are plenty of people who are athletic, strong and want to be defensive stoppers but just don’t have the instincts or discipline to play good D. Outlaw, Aldridge and David Lee are all examples just among guys we’ve talked about in the last day.
Some guys learn to be stoppers in the pros, but most great defenders in the NBA were at least good in college, and from everything I’ve heard about Bayless, that just wasn’t the case.
Bayless could become a great defender. He’s’ got all the tools. Still, I’m not holding my breath.
Boomshakalaka
Also look at some of the good defenders in the league...
Bruce Bown, Rajon Rondo, Tayshaun Prince…. None of which have been known as amazing athletes. Prince and Rondo are skinny and not anything exceptional from an athleticism standpoint. Bowen is slow and the polar opposite of athletic. Defense is a mind game, you have to know your opponent inside out, you have to have amazing reaction time and be able to predict what your matchup is trying to do. Anticipation is the most important factor in a good defensively player, being strong and athletic does not equal good anticipation….
RUDY > MJ
Rondo and Prince are FANTASTIC athletes
Both skinny, but elite athletes even in by NBA standards.
But your point is true— defense is about effort and instincts. I contend that a lot of it comes with time and focus; defense is a vets game, for the most part (with Rondo being the most notable young perimeter defender in… as long as I can remember).
There are a billion guys with Bayless’ physical tools, it’ll depend on effort and focus for him to be a good defender. We haven’t seen anything to suggest that won’t be the case, and in general determining his offensive and defensive game is way premature.
I haven’t seen anything defensively to worry about the kid’s eventual impact, though. Everything— effort and athleticism— are already there.
Mortimer
The scouts all say he was good defensively though
With Outlaw, he’s just too dang slow. Soooooo slow laterally, his feet are stuck in mud. Especially too slow for SFs, which is another reason to keep him as a mismatched PF.
Some guys just don’t use their bodies, and Bayless clearly does. David Lee doesn’t, Outlaw doesn’t, and LMA sometimes does and sometimes doesn’t. He gets outmuscles and forgets to rotate to challenge buckets. Lee just doesn’t challenge shots at all, despite his leaping ability and quickness for rebounding. Outlaw is just slow.
Everything we’ve seen suggests Bayless wants to play defense, and he played defense in college as a freshman. If anything, being a 20 year old who realizes defense is important is a great thing. He shows a lot of effort out there, but isn’t sure what to do— over commits one way or another, gets too amped up and doesn’t play the guy intelligently, etc. Rookie mistakes.
But to my eye, he clearly WANTS to play defense and has the athleticism and body to do it.
He’s just doing it like a rookie.
He’s a million years ahead of our other out-of-HS or early-draft-entrant guys in the past, like Martell or Trout. The fact that Bayless isn’t completely clueless is a good sign.
Mortimer
could you link me to where a scout praises his college defense?
I have yet to see anything that says that.
Boomshakalaka
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NCAA-Weekly-Performers,-1-23-08—-Part-One-2481/
"Defensively, Bayless shows a lot of potential, not just with his tools, but with the commitment he’s displayed to competing on this end of the floor. He has excellent lateral quickness, clearly having received some solid coaching on this part of his game early on his career. His awareness isn’t always the best (looking a bit lost trying to find his man in transition for example), and he lacks some strength to get through screens defending the pick and roll at times—taking too wide an angle to avoid contact, but considering his age and huge offensive role on the team, it’s hard to nitpick too much here.
There is a caveat, though, as considering his size, he’d almost certainly be better off guarding point guards than shooting guards, which again brings up the fact that he’ll need to be drafted by the right team (with the right guard next to him) to really reach his full potential. He won’t be a perfect fit for everyone, but if he finds the right situation, Bayless has 20 point per game plus potential in the NBA if he continues to progress. The early indications we’re getting from sources close to the situation are that Bayless is leaning towards leaving Arizona at the end of this season. The reason for that being that with the dominant ball-handling Brandon Jennings coming in next year, he won’t have as much of a chance to develop his point guard skills. It seems like he could definitely use another year of experience before he’s ready to compete for high level minutes in the NBA, but if he’s indeed the lottery pick that most NBA people we’ve spoken to feel he is, then he probably has no choice but to leave."
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NCAA-Weekly-Performers—Freshman-Edition,-Part-Two-2349/
"Defensively, the freshman has lockdown potential for an NBA point guard. In a match-up against Virginia, he forced Sean Singletary into a number of ill-advised shots while cutting off his penetration into the paint. This type of defense is coveted by NBA teams, and the fact that it came from a college freshman in his second game is particularly impressive.
Physically, Bayless must continue to get stronger, but his physical tools can already be described as freakish. This becomes obvious when watching him blow by the opposing defense off the dribble and finishing against stronger, more physically developed players inside."
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Las-Vegas-Summer-League-Day-Four-2963/
“Defensively, Bayless played very well at times, but was forced to be less aggressive in this area by the refs who were calling things very closely.”
Look at you, making me do research like some dirty hobo…
The Blazers fan’s hopes about his defense didn’t materialize out of some homery space ship of imaginary dreams. Lotsa scouts and analysts all predicted good defense out of the kid.
Here is his Draftexpress player file: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jerryd-Bayless-1067/
Much of his defensive worry is based around him being forced to guard SGs, which won’t be the case for us. Brandon RoyFTW again!
Mortimer
by Mortimer on Jan 6, 2009 7:04 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
those reports are definetely encouraging
his energy on D has been the only bright spot in his play so far. Thanks for digging those up.
Boomshakalaka
I take his energy
As him being aware that that is what he HAS to do to play. That’s a good start.
And even though, say, Martell, knew he had to play defense as a rook, he just couldn’t. He was useless out there. Bayless, as a dumb rook, ain’t useless (and he’d have every excuse to be useless, since rookies are stupid jerks).
He probably misuses his energy a lot, and his overall tight play on offense AND defense are preventing him from ‘feeling’ the game and creating any sort of flow. He’s just hesitant out there and thinking too much— but again, to me, understandable.
He’ll, someday soon, be able to pressure ANY point guard full court and use his size and muscle against their equal quickness to his advantage. He’s also a one man fastbreak, ala Devin Harris and Tony Parker.
BELIEVE ME, if we didn’t have Brandon Roy, I don’t think I’d be as high on Bayless. I usually ABHOR short SGs who are forced by their height to be a PG-ish player. But that usually stems from them not being a good playmaker (ala Ben Gordon) and too short to guard SGs and too slow to guard PGs (ala Ben Gordon). Roy solves the playmaking portion (as does Rudy, eventually), and Bayless WILL be able to guard PGs.
Pretty much, I think Bayless fell into the perfect team for him.
Roy enables me to not be so anti-short 2-guards, but so does Bayless’ PG-guarding ability.
Mortimer
Take it from someone that watched the majority of Arizona's games last year
Bayless stunk out loud on the defensive end of the court. Everything there talks about potential to be a good defender. Just like we talk about Outlaw’s ability to be a good defender. Bayless simply hasn’t been, and hasn’t shown he’s ever going to be good. Until he starts to be better than bad, I won’t hold my breath. Using your logic 3/4 of players in the NBA SHOULD be good defenders, but they’re not. Bayless basically is Monta Ellis/Leandro Barbosa. If those guys aren’t and can’t be good defenders, there isn’t much of a shot for Bayless to be, he is their spitting image.
He's a LOT bigger than them
And stronger.
AND, again, he puts his body into people. He doesn’t just get out of the way, like a Monta or Barbosa. In less than a game’s worth of playing time, Bayless has muscled up his man more than those two have their entire careers (I just ran the numbers, that is a factual non-hyperbolic statement).
I’ve talked and read others who went to the same games and watch all of ’em too, some of them post here, and they say the opposite of what you say.
No one REALLY thinks Outlaw will become a good defender. Some people hope he’ll magically become a better defender, but he’s just too slow. I don’t think anyone confidently thinks he’ll learn to become a defender. He’s just Travvy!
EITHER WAY, it is way too early to say Bayless won’t become a good defender, especially when it contradicts what many in the Blazer organization believe. He’s just a dumb rook and doesn’t deserve the bashing he already seems to get.
Mortimer
Unfair bashing?
Welcome to BE, how ya doin?
Everyone on this team gets much undue criticism. This isn’t undue criticism, its an honest account of the 15+ games that I’ve personally witnessed of Bayless getting spit out by average offensive players in college basketball.
When was the point when you decided that Trav would no longer be even a decent defender? Because in his scouting report, in his rookie year, with all his athleticism, I’m positive many around here were touting his apparent defensive ceiling. The deal in the NBA is more often than not players NOT reaching their ceiling, and basically settling down into a more advanced version of what they were early on. The more advanced Bayless is an average point guard with great scoring ability and a poor or at best average defensive player. This notion that Bayless is going to magically transform into an elite lockdown defender at the point guard position if a fairy tale.
And Outlaw works hard, huh?
When one thinks of Outlaw, they think of a tireless worker, first to arrive last to leave, right? A guy known for reading the scouting reports and knowing who he is guarding? Sounds just like Bayless, right?
Outlaw takes every summer off, and doesn’t work on his game. He doesn’t have a good work ethic. He is also slow. One athletic guy who didn’t get any better defensively does not equal Bayless not becoming better defensively.
The notion that Bayless, or any 20 year old, is a complete player, isn’t just silly— it is dumb. Unintelligent. Ridiculous.
Yes, it is unfair bashing when one is stupidly bashing a kid when he hasn’t hardly even played. Even on the ruthless interwebs.
My opinion and your opinion are not fact. I think he’ll probably become a good defender, you say he absolutely won’t. Right there you can tell who is more reasonable by how absolute the statements are.
And, of course, the only facts we can go on are his work ethic and athleticism. Both point to a good defensive player developing out of a 20 year old rookie.
Everything else is theory, including what I say.
But I know it’s theory, and I’m only mocking those who think so much of themselves that their opinion becomes fact. You surely MUST know that you do not know what you think you know, right? If not, well… ooph.
Mortimer
you think he probably will become a good defender
I think he’ll probably be between average and bad. I just think based on his play, saying he’ll be doing the opposite of what he’s been known to do versus even tougher competition is wishful thinking. Nothing is set in stone, but I try to base my assumptions or opinions on things that the player has done on the court, as opposed to pure hearsay or speculation. On the court Bayless has been a poor defender. Sure he’s quick, and seems to be a hard worker, but its not like he wasn’t those things last year when he stunk out loud defensively on the court. Hopefully he becomes that good defender you think he’ll be, but I’d put the smart money on that not being the case.
Fair enough
A difference in opinion is what places like this are all about.
Definitive statements about unknowables and anything to the contrary being science fiction don’t do anyone any goods.
All we can really do, while the player ain’t out on the court, is trust what the Blazer players and coaches say, and that our players keep working hard on their faults.
As far as Bayless goes, I worry more about him fitting in offensively than his defense. I think he’s got the tools to do both pretty well, and we could be the perfect home for him since Roy is really our PG… but he’s got a lot to work on.
Knowing what we know about his work ethic and need to be great, I base a lot of my confidence in the kid because we know he’ll work on it.
I can’t think of any smart, super athletic, HARD WORKING young prospect who didn’t turn into something special. One of those elements (usually smarts and hard work) are missing and make the guy fail. Many smart and hard working guys just aren’t blessed with the athleticism Bayless was gifted with.
In the NBA, being super athletic is never enough (except for Lebron). Bayless’ work ethic will hopefully put him over the top.
In the meantime, I like Blake and Sergio and that we aren’t force feeding any minutes to Bayless, like a bad team would be doing. It’ll help him in the long run to get his minutes the right way.
Mortimer
yikes
That second paragraph is kind of twighlight zonish. Good stuff…
rec
RUDY > MJ
by myemic23 on Jan 6, 2009 7:18 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That's my thought too!
It was like someone went into the article after Bayless was drafted and edited it into the article to seem psychic or something.
I agree with it… Bayless is in a perfect situation, except for the “we wanna win now” part of it. But as far as it being a problem for HIM goes, it’s only temporary and playing in meaningful games will make him a more complete player.
And really— he needs to become a more complete player, and keep learning to be a PG. When I praise him, I ain’t saying he is ready.
But he will be.
Mortimer
Your repetition of this line makes me want to bang my own head.
Good grief. You can’t see the lateral speed or the upper body strength? You don’t see the aggressiveness and the ability to put pressure on the ball? It blows my mind.
You seem to have made up your mind about JBay before the draft and seem unwilling to change it based on what we are observing on the floor. I, and a lot of others, see things completely differently. Somebody is going to be proven very wrong over the next couple of years.
I’m not trying to impune your motives; I am just amazed that we can see things so completely differently.
by upper left corner on Jan 7, 2009 8:54 AM PST up reply actions
One issue about defense
It’s easy to play good defense when you’re in the game for 3 minutes. You can expend your energy, knowing you won’t need it later. Playing defense like Bayless tries to do for even 25-30 minutes is an entirely different story.
Also, if you actually watch the games, even shooting guards don’t seem to have trouble getting to the rim on him. Tonight should be a good test for Bayless, Blake, Sergio, and Batum on defense. Also on Oden to see how he deals with a smaller team that can make him move around.
About the same value as Westbrook, Gordon, Jack and Felton?
That list makes absolutely no sense. Westbrook = very very high value. Eric Gordon = very high value. Jack = fistful of shiny beads. Felton = a little more than Jack but not much.
Westbrook is an extremely promising two way PG, like a better Rondo. Gordon looks like a potential stud SG, like a Ben Gordon who plays elite defense against SGs. Jack is ideally a career backup SG. Felton is ideally a career backup PG.
For the record, yes, I do hope that Bayless can be as valuable as Westbrook and Eric Gordon. Even if he’s somewhat behind that, he’ll be a major asset for us.
by howlingfantods on Jan 6, 2009 3:33 PM PST up reply actions
Sure
He has value, no doubt. All those guys are borderline starters on bad teams, which is exactly what I think Bayless would be if he didn’t play for the Blazers.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jan 6, 2009 5:58 PM PST up reply actions
That's inane. Yes, surprisingly enough,
most lottery picks are on bad teams. That’s why those teams were picking in the lottery. Brandon Roy who I consider a top 10 player in only his third season in the league was a borderline starter on a bad team his first couple of months in the season, when he wasn’t injured.
Yes, rookies are often not great their first month or two in the league. However, the problem with your list is that in fact, after a pretty bad start, Westbrook has played as well as any other rookie in the league over the past few weeks, averaging an efficient 16/5/5 in 33 minutes, shooting good percentages. Eric Gordon has also been efficient and productive, with 14/4/2 in 39 minutes also shooting good percentages, and has played good enough defense on opposing SGs that he’s pretty much wiped away doubts about whether he can play the position. These two are dark horse picks to win ROY this year
Again, just inane. If Larry offered Jack for Westbrook, Presti would call him names and hang up laughing his ass off. saying “about the same value as Westbrook, Gordon, Jack and Felton” is kind of like saying “about the same value as LeBron, Wade, Villanueva and Dampier”. It just meaningless word salad.
by howlingfantods on Jan 7, 2009 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
OK
Maybe “about the same value” is a little too liberal. Thanks for showing me the light. The time you spent correcting someone you don’t even know on the internet has not gone unrewarded.
I was talking about right now at this moment in time. Westbrook will be better than Jack. Maybe even by the end of the year. But in terms of wins/losses, real time value to a team, Westbrook still has a ways to go. Does Jack have more worth than Westbrook? Depends on who’s team he plays for and what their goals are. I would still lump all those guys in the same category even though some of them have value in potential and others have value in production.
The distance between Felton and Westbrook (Both currently middle of the road point guards) is way different than LeBron and Dampier.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jan 7, 2009 10:43 PM PST up reply actions
No offense
but it’s not the end of the world to admit that you’re wrong, and no one knows everything. Maybe you should consider just admitting the obvious rather than moving goalposts around.
by howlingfantods on Jan 8, 2009 3:04 AM PST up reply actions
lol, ive found being leaving room to be wrong, the easiest way to be right
inother words, infrequently speaking in absolutes, and being able to quickly admit when im wrong = conversational akido
December 18, 2008.
"Roy is Roy, and if I were to bet my life on a game of 5-on-5, I’d bet on whichever team Roy was playing on." by HurraKane212
How long are you and the others going to keep this up?
Just curious? Calling JBay a “2” when he he appears to have all the skills necessary to play the “1” is just your way of insulting him.
The kid has the speed and strength to defend the 1.
He has the handle to bring the ball up the court.
He actually is pretty under-rated as a passer, having racked up 8 assists with 1 turnover in about 32 minute of time in the past two games.
Just because he played the “2” at UA, and in Summer League, does not mean he can not play the 1. You can analyze his play, but insisting on repeating this is pretty annoying and strikes me as intellectually dishonest.
by upper left corner on Jan 7, 2009 8:46 AM PST up reply actions
A proven NBA commodity / Top 10 Pick
If you’re trading back into next years NBA draft it would have to be a top 10 pick.
If you’re trading for a player. They’d have to be under 30 years old, a great team player with skills specific to what we want at a position of need, and that player would have to be signed for at least 3 years.
Basically, I don’t see this happening. I don’t like the idea of either Sergio or Bayless going. Blake should be the one that goes, unless we get back a legitimate no question about it PG for the future of this team.
Blake?
Blake is by far the most sound of our point guards. No, he is not the most athletic, but his assist to turnover ratios are always excellent and he shoots the three at a high %. With scorers around him, he doesn’t need to score more than 8-12 points.
Defense? Blake is a huge defensive liability and his offensive game is limited
He is critical to our success at the moment because we need someone to knock down shots, but Blake’s ability to get to the rim is pretty limited. Once Martell is back or Batum becomes less of a non-entity on offense on a consistent basis, it would be wonderful to have a PG who could be a threat to drive.
by upper left corner on Jan 7, 2009 9:00 AM PST up reply actions
I think the rumors are bogus
OTOH, if KP does trade Bayless, I’ll suspect it’s for a good reason.
Dominating summer league means nothing; but I suspect JB can play some at this level. Enough for what the Blazers want? Dunno.
I simply can't vote in this poll...
I’m overwhelmed.
These 2-games-in-a-week weeks kill me.
"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car"
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Jan 6, 2009 1:38 PM PST reply actions
lol, need moar gamez
December 18, 2008.
"Roy is Roy, and if I were to bet my life on a game of 5-on-5, I’d bet on whichever team Roy was playing on." by HurraKane212
Bayless for someone who would actually play
on our team at some point… umm.. ever.
Not big enough for a perimeter defender, not quick enough to get to the rim, can’t create a perimeter shot, and doesn’t have good passing. I know we haven’t see much (or at all yet) but given his skill set, I don’t think we will be seeing much.
Honestly I will take nathTnorman a step farther and say that the Pacers trade is the first one that KP has gotten wrong in a big way. We gave away way too much, in order to get this pick. Jack gave us a spark off the bench, he made some very stupid mistakes, but those were pretty much his only mistakes. He was a strong perimeter defender, and that is the person we need to be able to make ourselves a defensive team.
I mean we didn’t even invite him in for a pre-draft workout, which should raise some flags as to the smartness of this move in the first place. Why did we trade for someone when we hadn’t even seen them workout before? I mean honestly what was KP thinking?
I wasn’t big on Jack when he was here, but he’s a better player than Bayless is. And in the long run I don’t see how Bayless will get the time to develop into a good PG, and now the Blazers want to turn him into a tiny SG? You only do that with scoring guards if they aren’t willing to pass the ball ala AI, but Bayless just can’t control the ball or game, which is a whole different beast entirely.
I know its way too early to write him off, but honestly while people have been riding GO, I’ve been getting more and more concerned about Bayless, and have been honestly pretty content with GO so far. You can see the potential in Greg, the raw ability is just glaring, but what do you expect out of an undersized scoring guard? They step in to the league and dominate.
Its just something that is built in to them, AI, Arenas, Ellis, you could see in how they played that they were ready to go from day one, and to be effective as an undersized SG you really have to. That’s why they have traditionally been picked so late, because no one believes in them, and then all of a sudden they explode out, because it is born in to them. I just don’t see that with JB. Sorry everyone, love the guy, can’t see the talent.
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
by TheOdenator on Jan 6, 2009 1:40 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
A little too far...
Easy there, Odenator… The Jack trade freed up time for Rudy (who now fills our J-Jack role) and added an asset in J-Bay.
Ironically, the original deal for David Lee was Jarrett Jack + a first rounder for David Lee. Now, it’s allegedly Jerryd Bayless + a first rounder for David Lee. It’s hard to see the Indiana deal as anything less than a push right now and that’s assuming Bayless doesn’t develop at all…
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 2:10 PM PST up reply actions
That is a great point
Jack would not have a spot on this team, and if he were on this team, most likely he would be standing in front of Sergio, and we would be tearing our collective hair out that Nate is still playing Sergio, when we would know that the Spanish Air-Mada was being stifled.
The way that it is a push is if we are looking to how the rest of the league sees Bayless. If they feel like they want to pay for potential that is completely up to them. But so far the trade has netted two guys who play a combined 12.2 minutes and 3.8 points per game. Like I said my point was that I do not see the potential for Bayless to become a great player in the future, and right now we are definitely not as good because we don’t have Jack.
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
And this is where we disagree...
Simple math, right?
Jarrett Jack + Josh McRoberts + Brandon Rush = Jerryd Bayless + Ike Diogu + Shavlik Randolph [thanks to the open roster spot].
Had this trade not happened, you’ve got McRoberts filling the D-League/Shavlik Randolph role, Rush sitting behind Batum, Outlaw and Webster (he may have gotten minutes once Webster went down, but to be honest I haven’t followed him this season), and Jarrett Jack presumably filling the third guard role, which was his role last season or filling the 4th guard role (Sergio’s minutes).
If you switch Jack for Sergio, how much have you prohibited Rudy’s development? Not to mention, Rudy would always be looking over his shoulder because Nate’s love for Jack could very easily push him into a more important role.
Conversely, what have you gained? You have Jarrett Jack running the offense, but he didn’t show a very high aptitude for scoring off the bench last season, so you don’t get much more net production… Once you factor in the slower pace [presumably] and Rudy’s hindered development the net gain seems very small.
Plus, we’d have to stare at Jack’s alien head as he fumbles away a 3-on-1 fastbreak…
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 5:04 PM PST up reply actions
haha
If you switch Jack for Sergio, how much have you prohibited Rudy’s development? Not to mention, Rudy would always be looking over his shoulder because Nate’s love for Jack could very easily push him into a more important role.
I absolutely agree with this, but isn’t this kind of a weird statement? We could play Jack as much as we play Bayless, he would have been unhappy, but Nate could have done this.
The reason why Jack would be in instead of Sergio, would be presumably because he is a better point guard (either that or Nate has a fetish for defensive-minded point guards). Its just very strange that the best reason (IMO) for trading Jack (/getting Bayless) was just so that Sergio would get playing time along with Rudy, when you would think that Nate would play the PG who would most help our team, no matter the situation.
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
Pritchard did get it wrong...
..but not because he gave up too much. He got it wrong because it was a really risky bet. The bet that adding a raw, 19 year old to what is already the youngest team in the league was ridiculous. We would be better off now if he had not traded Jack or traded Jack for a veteran with some experience.
You are right
We WOULD probably be better off now.
Fortunately, Brandon is only out a week, and then we wouldn’t be better off, because JJ would hardly be sniffing the floor, and he wouldn’t be happy about it.
And two years from now, when Bayless is starting, providing good PG defense, and wreaking havoc on opposing defenses, we will be much better off having him doing that for us than having JJ sitting on the bench moping about not getting PT or having a key role.
JJ is NOT better than Blake, and he’s not better than Rudy, and he’s not better than Roy. That means at best, he’d be getting Sergio minutes in normal circumstances, and he wouldn’t be happy. Far better to trade him for someone who has the potential to be really good.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
by jscot on Jan 6, 2009 2:28 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Do you think
we’ll regret not getting Kareem Rush? I think we could use some consistent outside shooting and slashing this year, but we’ll see what happens when Webster comes back.
Brandon Rush?
Or Kareem?
"...we have so many experts who think that you have to play defense, you have to rebound, you have to be a possession coach, you have to execute. I just laugh. Explosive offense is not as intimidating as dominant defense. But it is scary when you don't know how to stop someone." - George Karl, Nuggets coach
Agree, recced
"...we have so many experts who think that you have to play defense, you have to rebound, you have to be a possession coach, you have to execute. I just laugh. Explosive offense is not as intimidating as dominant defense. But it is scary when you don't know how to stop someone." - George Karl, Nuggets coach
"The bet that adding a raw, 19 year old to what is already the youngest team in the league was ridiculous"
Yes, he should have gone for a seasoned veteran draft pick.
And with
the 13th pick in the 2008 NBA draft, the Portland Trail Blazers select…uh…LeBron James from the Cleveland Cavaliers.
That would be as cool as the 6 man offense.
Can you hear the commentators? “What genius! Blazers decide not to go young in the draft! Mutombo a perfect fit!”
This all depends on your assessment of JBay based on less than 100 minutes of playing time.
Glad you are so willing to be proved wrong.
by upper left corner on Jan 7, 2009 9:33 AM PST up reply actions
What?!
From what I’ve seen, in limited minutes, he gets to the rim just fine. I heard a commentator say the other day that’s he’s one of few players in the NBA quick enough to get around his defender without a screen. He’s had trouble finishing at the rim, but I believe that will come with time.
His passing has been 50/50. I can’t remember which game it was, but recently he drove to the hoop, had a shot, but passed to Blake in the corner for a big 3. I was amazed he could see Blake out there. On the other hand, he has a tendency to elevate, then look to pass, like Sergio and Travis do. He needs to stop that.
And he will have trouble with bigger guards. But he brings so much defensive intensity and quickness, I’d love to see him pester point guards. He gave CP3 a terrible time the other night.
by LicketyBrindle on Jan 6, 2009 2:48 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
he also had a nice pass
around Odom on the baseline to Aldridge for a dunk.
He can get into the lane just fine, but is that what he is trying to be or is he focussing on being more of a facilitator?
"She turned me into a newt!
A newt?
...I got better."
you mean, jump pass?
December 18, 2008.
"Roy is Roy, and if I were to bet my life on a game of 5-on-5, I’d bet on whichever team Roy was playing on." by HurraKane212
He's focusing
on being a facilitator, because that’s his ticket to PT. He can score, no problem, no doubts. But he has a “must facilitate” mindset right now. That means he is probably less effective RIGHT NOW than he would be, but in the long run, that’s what he needs to add to his game, so that’s what they have him focused on.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
He can score??
Was it his 23% fg% that told you that or his 1-14 in the last 3 games when we absolutely needed a scorer….
RUDY > MJ
Comparing 45 minutes of PT
to his career in high school, college, and Summer League, is kind of silly. Anyone knows the dude can score. The fact that he hasn’t yet got untracked in his first 45 minutes as an NBA rookie doesn’t change that fact.
He’s not ready. If he were, he’d be getting PT. He’s just a 20 year old kid. His one year in college his coach decided to blow up his personal life and disappeared.
I don’t care about 23% in his first 45 minutes. I don’t care that as an untested rookie who is still trying to learn how to be a PG he was rendered largely ineffective by three of the top six teams in the league. That tells us nothing, nada, zip, about how good he is going to be. It tells us one thing and one thing only — he isn’t really ready to contribute yet.
Most of us knew that anyway, because if he were ready, Nate would have been playing him.
And, as I said, he’s focused so much on being a facilitator right now that it is hindering his scoring game. Which is another reason why his current shooting isn’t a concern.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
Good question...
hard to say. With Roy out, what we really needed was someone who could penetrate. Bayless came in and did that. Now is that because he saw that was what we needed, or is it because it’s all he knows how to do? Dunno.
Another note: Look at him in that first Celtics game – really his first minutes – and then against the Hornets. Dude’s learning curve is astronomical. He has a long way to go, but he’s improving with the time he’s on the floor. Promising.
by LicketyBrindle on Jan 6, 2009 3:00 PM PST up reply actions
The Blazers have little idenitity, besides the name
“Brandon Roy.”
Since we have officially identified ourselves as the Rookie Training Team of the NBA, we better train him and keep him at least as long as we’ve kept Outlaw.
Agree on the identity part of it...
We rely too much on Brandon Roy. Period. When he is playing, its fine. When he is hurt, it is not fine. The common them for Bayless being a success next to Roy is that he will hit open shoots, get the ball upcourt, be able to set up a play, play good defense, and get Roy the ball. But doesnt that present us with the same problem? When Roy goes down in a theoretical Bayless/Roy backcourt, you have not only lost your best scorer, but you have lost your best playmaker as well. Using Roy as a primary scorer and a primary facilitator(ie point guard) only makes our team more reliant on Roy….
RUDY > MJ
Did the Bulls teams of the 90s
rely too much on Michael Jordon?
"...we have so many experts who think that you have to play defense, you have to rebound, you have to be a possession coach, you have to execute. I just laugh. Explosive offense is not as intimidating as dominant defense. But it is scary when you don't know how to stop someone." - George Karl, Nuggets coach
hahaha
You are talking about Jordan, the greatest player to ever walk the planet. If you are planning on Roy being the next Jordan, you are plain crazy. And I am a big time Roy homer….
RUDY > MJ
Yes, I know Brandon isn't MJ, but the premise still holds
When you say:
When he is playing, its fine. When he is hurt, it is not fine. … When Roy goes down in a theoretical Bayless/Roy backcourt, you have not only lost your best scorer, but you have lost your best playmaker as well.
Substitute Roy for MJ in that sentence and it’s still true for the Bulls teams. But that didn’t stop them from being an excellent team. My point is that it’s okay to rely on one superstar, and the Blazers are definitely deeper than all those Bulls championship runs, Roy and MJ aside. I think it’s totally okay to construct this team around Roy and if he goes down then you adjust.
"...we have so many experts who think that you have to play defense, you have to rebound, you have to be a possession coach, you have to execute. I just laugh. Explosive offense is not as intimidating as dominant defense. But it is scary when you don't know how to stop someone." - George Karl, Nuggets coach
Won't happen
unless as part of a package to get an all-star. Possibly a high lottery pick, but highly unlikely.
KP went and got his man. Just because WE haven’t yet seen him provide in the NBA the things KP saw in him, doesn’t mean he won’t. We are, you recall, not even half way into his rookie season.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
kan we rule out the notion that kp was aquiring a more valuable
trading commodaty, for a time further in the future? we allready no that a good front office will think out three to four years in advance. if theres any room for that to be tru, then bayless is right back in the trade fires
December 18, 2008.
"Roy is Roy, and if I were to bet my life on a game of 5-on-5, I’d bet on whichever team Roy was playing on." by HurraKane212
i gues im saying
that kp never “said” that jaryd is the point of the future, we just know that kp took advantage, got creative, and got his man. but we dont knnow for what purpose. i think its possible that kp saw an opprotunity to aquir a potentialy more valuable peice for a future trade sanario ect. doubt it, but im juss saying, its possible.
December 18, 2008.
"Roy is Roy, and if I were to bet my life on a game of 5-on-5, I’d bet on whichever team Roy was playing on." by HurraKane212
This is off topic
but I’m starting to be able to read your posts without stopping, and liking what I read most of the time. Either I’m getting more used to your way of writing or you’re improving…or both.
"...we have so many experts who think that you have to play defense, you have to rebound, you have to be a possession coach, you have to execute. I just laugh. Explosive offense is not as intimidating as dominant defense. But it is scary when you don't know how to stop someone." - George Karl, Nuggets coach
It's possible
but highly unlikely. The reason is because the type of player Jerryd shows the potential to be is the perfect fit for playing next to Brandon. Can defend the point, bring the ball up, reasonably capable of running the offense when needed, and can play as a 2 on offense, an off-the-ball threat when Brandon is operating. If he becomes as good at those things as his potential seems to indicate, he’s perfect next to Brandon.
That makes me think KP got him, not as a trade piece, but as a potential long term solution to the PG questions.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
i dont disagree,
but just saying, kp and pen know every contract in the nba, and pen for sure. pritchard makes a lot of calls, and he knows things that we kant even speculate to speculate on. i like jaryds physical potential to, but i kant see any reason to asume that anybody on this roster is ultamatly untradable other then roy and oden right now. as it is, im sure that kp likes it mostly as it is, im just saying, thats all
December 18, 2008.
"Roy is Roy, and if I were to bet my life on a game of 5-on-5, I’d bet on whichever team Roy was playing on." by HurraKane212
I think you are mostly right
I don’t think Jerryd is untouchable. If the right deal comes along, KP would do it, no question.
But I don’t think that was KP’s reason for getting him, and I think it is highly unlikely he will be traded. In fact, I’m going to say that, barring a completely stupid trade (like Jerryd for Tayshaun or something insane like that), I think he is only traded as part of a package that brings us a top-quality PG.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
i cross my fingers that your right
besides, wouldnt d-antony prefer a sergio = (fill in th blank) type deal any wayz?
December 18, 2008.
"Roy is Roy, and if I were to bet my life on a game of 5-on-5, I’d bet on whichever team Roy was playing on." by HurraKane212
I'm not even that high on him
but I think it’s absurd to trade guys before you know what you have. Three years is pretty much the absolute minimum you give guys unless they’re obviously physically incapable like Ammo.
Oh boy, this is my repost day
Future value: Watch this video, then say honestly you are not intrigued at all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcqe9UXkc8o (click on high quality). That was in high school!
David Lee situation: Chad Ford (ESPN) weighs in in his chat today
Nick (NYC): Chad, what have you heard on this David Lee to Portland stuff?? Wouldn’t Lee for Jerryd Bayless and a first rounder be a great deal for both teams??
Chad Ford: Portland has interest in Lee. But honestly, Portland has interest in all of the good young players in the league. Kevin Pritchard is very proactive and likes to collect assets. The Knicks would probably be interested in that deal … Bayless and a first rounder. The problem is, Portland’s not offering that. I think they’re not willing to give up that much for Lee. I think Lee will be gone by the trade deadline, but I’m not sure it will be Portland.
Don't worry I'm re-posting here to with further thoughts...
Can someone convince me as to why there’s so much love for Jerryd Bayless? Honestly, I don’t mean for this to sound incredibly confrontational or anything, but I’m just skeptical. I want to love him, but I need a boost in the right direction.
From what I’ve seen in actual NBA action this season, he has been…
1.) Unable to work together with Sergio (not unexpected as neither of them are jump-shooters and both need the ball to operate).
2.) Made a concerted effort to finish at the rim, which usually leads to an almost hilarious escapade where a short guy is jumping into 3 taller guys.
3.) His season high is 4 assists [against the L@kers] but before that he’s never posted more than 2 in a game.
4.) He’s 1-for-14 from the floor in the three contests without Roy, including 0-for-3 from beyond the arc.
5.) His career field goal percentage is 22.9, but his "Hot Spots" chart shows that he’s 5-17 within 2 feet of the basket (29.4) and he’s only made two shots outside of this range in 18 attempts.
With all his flaws, Sergio showed his rookie year that he had one definitively NBA-level skill (passing), but in my opinion we haven’t seen the same NBA-caliber skills from Bayless. He has elite level quickness, but so does Sebastian Telfair. What am I missing here?
Notice I did not say “Bayless has reached his ceiling in 45 minutes of NBA action…”
I’m just pointing out what I’ve seen in his 45 minutes of action compared to what he did in Summer League. Some players have natural talent that converts to the NBA level (impact rookies like CP3, Amare, Roy, Rose/Mayo so far) and this separates them from “normal” project rookies. To my eye, Bayless looks like a player we’re going to have to develop from the ground up…
In no particular order, Bayless needs to develop…
1.) A floater because he’s always going to have trouble finishing in the land of the giants.
2.) Some confidence in his mid-range and three-point game.
3.) A knowledge of the plays (especially if you saw Przy jump down his throat the other night).
4.) An understanding of how to be effective without the ball.
5.) Some sense of team defense and, more specifically, when to be physical on D.
6.) His court vision.
7.) Longer arms would definitely help on defense, but if he isn’t going to grow, he needs to understand how to beat a man to a spot on D.
So, what defines Bayless’ potential?
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
Why were people excited about Rudy
before he ever played in an NBA game?
Why were they excited we drafted Oden?
Why were people high on Hakeem, or MJ, or David Robinson, before they had played 45 minutes?
I mean, 45 minutes of action is less than Mayo gets in TWO games. You are talking about one and a half games of normal playing time. So his high in assists is 4, and before that it was 2? Well, he’s only played one and a half games.
If you look up “small sample size” in Wikipedia, I think it has “45 minutes of NBA action” listed as an example.
Bayless’ potential is based on A) what he’s done on a basketball court in high school B) what he’s done on a basketball court in college C) what he’s done on a basketball court in Summer League.
These all tell us that the kid (emphasis on “kid”, so we are talking potential, which means not something we will necessarily see functioning well on the court right now) 1) is not just an athlete, but a basketball player — he’s got game 2) is far more athletic than any of our other PGs 3) can put the ball through that little round piece of metal, which is the ONLY thing you must do more than the other team to be sure of winning the game.
Add to that a strong work ethic, willingness to learn, and good team spirit. The physical tools to be a good defender, and the desire and work ethic to learn to use those physical tools.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
If we had Mayo...
he’d be starting alongside Roy right now. Not sure the two would work together, but he’s looked that good.
While I have hopes for Bayless; it’s not as if he’s riding the pine behind a pair of All-Stars. That said, Nate is tough on rookies, rookie PGs expecially, so I certainly wouldn’t write off Bayless yet.
But when a guy plays 45 minutes over almost half a season, there’s a reason. Whether that reason is “he sucks” or “he’s just not ready”, I have no idea.
by EngineerScotty on Jan 6, 2009 2:26 PM PST up reply actions
The question was
what is the basis for saying he has potential.
I didn’t say he’s ready now. I did comment that Mayo was ready, and would have been a good option if we could get him and if KP was confident about the attitude stuff.
Mayo is irrelevant, though. We’d have probably had to give up LMA plus to get him.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
Quickly address something...
I guess my point is that “potential” is a funny thing. I think Norsktroll did a fairly good job of introducing ideas that could “potentially” make Bayless successful, but I just get frustrated when people get wrapped up in a player’s “potential.”
5 years down the road, Bayless could be a starting point guard for Team USA, assuming he’d developed his physical abilities into a real basketball player. However, as of right now, I find myself falling back to the Mo Cheeks years when he was absolutely in love with Sebastian Telfair.
Telfair’s highlight tape is amazing. I could watch his YouTube’s all day – all night, but that doesn’t mean his game translates to the NBA-level.
So, I guess my true question was “What will make Bayless a successful NBA player and How does he get there in terms of development?”
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 2:37 PM PST up reply actions
Minutes on the floor. Maybe he would benefit from a stint in the d-league in a similar system, I wouldn’t rule that out, although here he can work with top coaches every day in Tualatin. He would be posting big numbers for a team like OKC or Memphis now had they gone with him.
exactly
It all comes down to minutes.
There are only two reasons Bayless hasn’t gotten more minutes IMO. One is because Sergio came back from the summer break a different player than when he left. I’m not sure anyone expected that big of an improvement from him and it warrented time on the floor. The second is because he is a rookie, and I think that Nate is the type of coach who believes in paying your dues and waiting your turn.
I’m convinced there will be space and time for him as the season goes on and next season also. He’s got the skills we need, he’s just not had the opportunity to display them. I think it is also more than fair to give him the time to prove his abilities as we have given Outlaw more than enough to do the same.
"She turned me into a newt!
A newt?
...I got better."
I think there were three reasons
The third is that he really wasn’t ready for PG responsibilities at the start of the season, and that they’ve been tearing down his game and remaking it.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
I've seen evidence of that
from his time on the floor. He plays much differently than he did in summer league, and beyond just the competition level.
"...we have so many experts who think that you have to play defense, you have to rebound, you have to be a possession coach, you have to execute. I just laugh. Explosive offense is not as intimidating as dominant defense. But it is scary when you don't know how to stop someone." - George Karl, Nuggets coach
Good coaching
and learning from those coaches in practice every day.
It’s happening.
Did Telfair ever get chosen for the Select team like Bayless did? It’s not just Portland fans who think this guy has game.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
Fair enough...
But then again, didn’t Telfair get $35 million or something like that from Adidas?
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 2:51 PM PST up reply actions
Could be
I don’t have a clue.
I’m not sure what that would indicate. That’s certainly putting your money where your mouth is, but I’m still not sure they have the kind of talent evaluation skills as the people who choose the Select team.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
There are other possibilities
The team has been trying to cope with a very high level of overall change. Nate may be waiting for other changes to settle before trying to integrate Bayless into the rotation.
In particular, Sergio has paid his dues, and Sergio has undeniable chemistry with Rudy. It seems quite possible to me that the Blazers could be highlighting Sergio as a precursor to trying to trade him; or that they are waiting until Martell is back with his outside shooting to give JBay some of Blake’s minutes.
by upper left corner on Jan 7, 2009 9:57 AM PST up reply actions
I agree with what you are determining his potential from:
Bayless’ potential is based on A) what he’s done on a basketball court in high school B) what he’s done on a basketball court in college C) what he’s done on a basketball court in Summer League.
You are right about that, but the real question is what has he done to show he has potential as a point guard. What I have seen from your evidence is:
A)score as a 2 guard
B)score as a 2 guard
C)score as a 2 guard
RUDY > MJ
And that's a big reason why he fits with Roy
Roy as the SG/PG, Bayless as the PG/SG, with the offense running through Roy as we do right now, with Bayless being a bigger offensive threat than Blake.
And then Bayless guards the PG on defense, and Roy the SG, like we’d normally do.
Saying Bayless scores like a 2 guard is part of the point. A big reason why short SGs usually don’t do well is because they can’t guard regular PGs. Bayless will be able to.
The patience comes in Bayless being able to be relied upon to know how to defend, know how to initiate the offense at least somewhat, and it being at a level where his offense can help us and the rest of his game doesn’t slow us down during an era where we want to win.
Mortimer
I hear ya...
The response I wrote above to hotstuff is just as applicable here. This makes me wonder though. What happens if/when we get a great pg, what will us BEdgers bicker about? Maybe how many rings in a row we will win?
RUDY > MJ
Bayless should at LEAST be able to create for himself
When Roy goes down, we have no one on the perimeter who can create his own shot.
Creating your own shot is the first step to creating for others effectively. If LMA is our best one-on-one guy, we’re in trouble… which is a big reason our starting unit hasn’t done all that well offensively without Roy (at least while Blake ain’t hitting his shots).
If Roy goes down, it’ll always hurt. No way around that. But if Bayless becomes what most envision him as, he’ll be able to set up the offense and be a great threat to score. Plus, likely a good enough PG to not need a “pure” PG alongside him. Even if not, you’ll have a non-rookie Rudy who will be Roy-esque and step up into the starting lineup alongside Bayless and do a lot of what Roy does.
(The above paragraph in set in the near future, next season or so, where Rudy has adapted to the NBA more and Bayless has as well).
Mortimer
We'll always find something to argue about ;-)
Where to store the championship rings, parade routes, etc.
Morty
You want find much of an argument from me on any of those topics....
Unless you plan on storing the championship rings on your fireplace mantle….
RUDY > MJ
The arguments
will be about backup PG, starting SF, and backup PF. Oh, and there will still probably be people calling for Joel to start, even if Greg is doing 20/15/5.
And there will be trade proposals to try to bolster the 12-15 roster spots.
And complaints that we don’t run enough. Or that such and such a player is too soft. Or that such and such a player really needs some finesse in his game, that all he seems able to do is bang down low.
Or that such and such a player can’t create his own shot. Or that such and such a player goes one-on-one too much trying to create his own shot, instead of moving the ball.
This will happen even if we are winning 75 games.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
I can completely agree with some points (e.g. off-ball movement), with others not so much
In no particular order:
- As you said, the sample size is terribly small. If he had been drafted by OKC and played as much as his peers Westbrook/Mayo/Rose/Augustine, I’m convinced he instead of Westbrook would now compete in the All-Star dunk contest (selection)
- I think the B-Rex/T-Rex moniker is somewhat funny as a nickname, but I can’t hear the arguments about his slightly short arms preventing him from being a good defender anymore. He e.g. has the same size and wingspan as Eddie House and Jordan Farmar, both highly respected defenders. And he WANTS to play defense
- He is lightning quick, maybe in Rondo/Parker territory. Not just in straight line sprint, but also with his first step and dribbling. I don’t have the exact pre-draft camp measurements up right now, but he was on par or quicker than Rose especially in the lane agility drills and 3/4 court sprints. Top 10 in his draft class
- Dude is strong. Look at those guns, he can probably already absorb contact better than B-Roy
- As per Casey, he works in training like a madman, putting in a shift before the actual training begins. THAT is important to realize your full potential. E.g. Gilbert Arenas was not good as a rookie and stuck between two positions, but he worked on his game and his shot a ton, taking hundreds of shots per day. After a season and off-season with the Blazers coaches, trainers and shooting coach, I’m confident Bayless will get to respectable threat levels from outside
- He is smart, has an excellent family background, confident, everything you want from a young player.
- At the moment, he is just struggling to find his role, now that he is asked to play more as a SG again after everyone told him PG, PG, PG.
In summary: Bayless is Derrick Rose light. Book it.
I disagree
He’s Tony Parker light. Well, except he’s probably going to be a better defender.
I think Rose may always be a better distributor. Bayless is going to be a scoring PG in the mold of Parker.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
I just say Derrick Rose light because they look very similar on the court and with their little knee pads :)
Sure, Rose is a team leader beyond his years. Parker with less passing ability but more vert, Ellis with more point guard skills, the next Arenas, all fine with me.
Vision is a major difference...
Derrick Rose has decidedly better court vision, which is important and tough to teach (although it develops by simply playing in additional games)… Ellis has proven he can finish at the rim (despite the small sample size 22 percent from 2 feet away is pretty terrible)…
I mean, I love dunks as much as the next guy, but it’s hard to imagine a 6 foot point guard with Eddie House’s wing span making a career out of playing above the rim.
The sooner he learns this, the sooner he becomes an NBA player…
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 2:49 PM PST up reply actions
Which other point guard has that vert and bulk? Nate Robinson maybe, who is really short. It shouldn’t be what he does all the time, but I like to have that as a weapon. Sergio and Blake can only do weak layups around the rim.
I especially like it
on the fast break. Off a steal, Jerryd on the break on a one on one or two on two break, you have to be aware of the threat of him posterizing you.
Let me rephrase this. Your teammate lost the ball, and you hustle back on defense. You’re the only guy back and the opposing PG is bringing it down. Your help defenders will arrive before the other offensive players, so you just have to stop that PG and then set the defense. Who do you prefer coming at you, Steve Blake or Sergio Rodriguez or Jerryd Bayless?
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
Hahahaha...
I’d hit the trailing Greg Oden or Joel P. to make sure it wasn’t blocked at the rim…
I definitely see the point here, though. Dunking is an ability that Bayless has (in spades) while Sergio and Blake are extremely floor based players.
The counter here is you’re running a 3-on-2 fast break to take the lead in game 7 of the finals – a guy you know is going to penetrate, absorb the defense, then dish for an easy alley-oop or the guy who is going to try and posterize someone, regardless of how much height he’s giving up?
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 3:19 PM PST up reply actions
Um, yeah
Who’s the first guy you described? Blake wouldn’t penetrate, and Sergio wouldn’t absorb the defense because they would know he was going to dish so they would defend the wings.
And actually, on a 3 on 2, the threat to take it all the way to the hoop is valuable, too. If Bayless learns to run a 3 on 2 or 2 on 1 break, he will be much more effective at it than our other two because of that threat to just go ahead and take it all the way.
The first rule of defending a fastbreak is to stop the ball. If you stop the guy with the ball, you force a pass, which might result in an error. If you don’t stop the ball, it’s layin/dunk time.
With Blake, you don’t have to stop the ball, you just have to look in his general direction, and he’ll probably pull up and pass to a guy on the wing or pop the jumper. With Sergio, you don’t have to stop the ball because he’ll dish anyway.
Give me a Bayless who has had Nate banging on him for a year or two teaching him how to run the point.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
Wait...
Now, neither Blake nor Sergio can run the break?
It’s tough to argue against Sergio on the break, as that’s been his bread and butter since he joined the Blazers. To say that he wouldn’t convert a 3-on-2 into points is basically saying he has no value as a change of pace point guard. That’s his one job on the team, right?
House money says that Bayless would make an attempt to score (likely via the dunk as an overwhelming majority of his shots come within 2 feet of the basket) and, for now, he only converts that shot at a 29 percent clip… Not exactly the type of fastbreak conversion rate a playoff team needs…
Blake would hit a pull-up three, or misfire on the three, tip a rebound to Aldridge, who would find Travis Outlaw in the corner 3 times and the Blazers would then convert for 3 points.
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
How many Sergio fastbreaks you seen?
He “likes to run” but it’s not like he’s starting or finishing or dishing on a lot of fastbreaks.
That is because our team is like that, but we’ve never seen Sergio be a wizard on the fastbreak like Nash or ever be able to finish on his own.
If he is running a 3 on 2, you stay home on your guys and make him be the scorer. He isn’t a strong finisher, so it’s what ya do if a defender is aware enough to know that.
There are no numbers to use that can say how Bayless isn’t a good fastbreaker, because he hasn’t been able to be a part of one. I’d go even further and say ANY statistical analysis regarding Bayless is EXTREMELY useless to the point of complete irrelevence. He simply has not played enough regular basketball as a Blazer to point to any trend or weakness.
Blake can push the ball decently enough, like when he was on the Nuggets, but not a good fastbreak guard at all. Sergio has the rep but it’s not like we see it much. I think a free flowing style suits him best of course, but can you honestly say when he gets on the game he is ever running a 3 on 2 fastbreak, or any other sort of break?
Sergio is great at finding the open shooter by penetrating in the halfcourt and dishing. He does go faster. I wish he’d go even faster for a true change of pace, but maybe Nate doesn’t let him. For all of the “GO GO GO GO” we can hear coming from Nate from home, I’m sure he wouldn’t mind our PGs running down court and getting an advantage.
Sergio is less successful when people are not hitting their outside jumpers, or when no one guards him and he is forced to shoot it to keep the defense honest.
If you think Bayless remains a 29% shooter at close to the basket shots, well… I can’t say anything but disagree.
Mortimer
Okay but the Bayless thing...
Then it stands to reason that I would be an amazing basketball phenom because you can’t use any statistical analysis to prove me wrong.
I think the question is what people see in him that makes them so sure that he is going to be good. When he has played he hasn’t taken the opportunity to prove himself. What does Bayless have that you can’t get from an average player? Sergio has always had an amazing passing game, we have known that and have been able to point to that as a key characteristic that can be built upon. What is the key facet of Bayless’ game that can be built on?
Sergio does run the fast break well, and he also passes well. 79% of Rudy’s shots are assisted and I bet you can tell me who the majority of those assists are from. We move at a faster pace, and we definitely run more with Sergio in the game compared the Blake, or Jack etc. Sergio is a passing point guard, and so when others aren’t hitting the shots he has created for them, of course its going to hurt his ability to be effective, the same with any passing PG in the league.
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
I guess I disagree then...
Because Blake did a pretty solid job running a fast break team in Denver and if Sergio isn’t finding the guy who is finishing on the break, then he’s the one throwing the pass that leads to the break (i.e. Sergio steals the ball, passes to Rudy, who lobs to Channing)…
They’re just to different to compare, not because statistics don’t apply.
I mean, with Bayless, you’re arguing on potential alone, really. We would hope that he’d find the open man in transition or throw-down a Bobby Flay ‘sweet-and-sour’ slamma-jamma, but the fact is in is 17 attempts around the rim, he’s only made 5.
For now, I’m taking Blake or Sergio on the break with the understanding that this may change in coming years. But for now, and on this year’s team, Sergio and Blake are much more important and they should get the respect of a starter and his backup, rather than two guys occupying the space of another…
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 5:18 PM PST up reply actions
They ARE getting that respect
But any known basketball analyst, and anyone who can see and compare their athleticism and all reports coming from Quick and The Mikes all suggest Bayless has much, much more upside left to show and that is all we’re arguing.
And, ya don’t trade that sort of upside away for a backup.
Sergio and Blake earned their spots and I don’t think anyone is arguing they should lose it. I don’t know why, but so many Sergio supporters are so SENSITIVE about him. It’s one thing to poo poo the idea of trading a high-potential 20 year old, and another to poo poo a notion no one is even bringing up because it could possibly hurt their favorite player.
I am not accusing you specifically of this, and I also admit I may have missed someone calling for Bayless to play over Blake and Sergio (if anyone has, it’s been the exception).
I like Blake and Sergio. In my opinion, both are not going to end up as good as Bayless within a few short seasons. I’d love to keep them as long as we can though, and if Blake ends up a backup you can’t ask for a more dependable one. I still see Sergio as a long-term backup and not a starter, though what he does he does well.
I want Bayless to earn his role and to keep learning to be a PG. Making a judgement about the kid after 17 shots is just jumping the gun just a tad, and I wonder why someone even bothers jumping that gun.
We’ve seen Bayless in college. We’ve seen his pre-camp physical numbers. He is a specimen athletically and has an insane work ethic, and is smart to boot. THAT is why we don’t want to trade him. He’s just getting started.
Last season, many Sergio fans projected their own “Man-crush” feelings about Sergio onto Nate, with Jack. They did it to deflect their own undue love and praise of Sergio. This year, Sergio is playing and Bayless isn’t and no one is calling for it to be the other way around. That still isn’t good enough, and Sergio fans are constantly belittling a 20 year old rookie and suggesting he be dealt, because it makes Sergio look better…? I’m not sure what the logic is.
I don’t know what the deal is, but it’s unhealthy.
Not aiming this specifically at you, again.
Mortimer
In a way though...
No offense taken, by the way…
But in a way, people are saying that Bayless should be playing over Sergio if they’re asking for Sergio to be traded, right?
I guess my over-arching point has nothing to do with Sergio or Bayless, it’s that inevitably a franchise has to make a decision every year on who they’re going to play, who they’re going to develop, and who they’re going to “bluff” and for some reason, every year we fall in love with a new shiny prospect.
Two years ago, I completely agree. Sergio was the object of our greatest desires. Last year, at least for a few minutes, there were rumblings that McRoberts was going to get significant action. And if you wait until Summer League, we’re going to start hearing the “Sign Petteri” chants all over again…
But the fact of the matter is ‘development’ from a Blazers-centric stand point is going to be tied up in Roy, Aldridge, Oden, and maybe Rudy, with everyone else being molded into a specific role. If we’re waiting for Bayless to become the next Gilbert Arenas or Monta Ellis, it’s just not going to happen.
So, does Bayless do the things we need our ‘Point guard of the future’ to do? Right now, the answer is a resounding ‘No.’ Could he? Most definitely, but it will require that he change his game and his mindset before it will happen…
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 5:52 PM PST up reply actions
Interesting comment
But in a way, people are saying that Bayless should be playing over Sergio if they’re asking for Sergio to be traded, right?
They might be, they might not.
I think some impatient fans want to hasten Bayless’ development by getting him PT, even if he isn’t really ready. They may be asking for Sergio to be traded, not because they think Bayless is better right now, but specifically because they know he isn’t better.
They may want Sergio to go so we can get value for him and develop Jerryd more quickly.
I am not in that camp. I’m a big Blake fan. I love his game, his toughness, his steadiness. He’s been huge to this team, perhaps as important in his role as Joel has been in his role.
But I think the future is probably Jerryd next to Roy and Sergio next to Rudy. I used to think Blake would retire a Blazer, but he’s been so good for us this year that I think, when these guys surpass him, he’ll be able to command a pretty good salary from someone else, a lot better than we can pay our third string PG.
I look for Blake, when he becomes a free agent in a year and a half, to be offered MLE by someone, perhaps even more (since so many teams are freeing cap space). And unfortunately, he’ll probably leave, because I don’t think we’ll want to spend that kind of money.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
By the way...
Props to all who have participated…
This was an excellent basketball debate about the future and progress of J-Bay.
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 5:34 PM PST up reply actions
Here we agree
For now, I’m taking Blake or Sergio on the break with the understanding that this may change in coming years. But for now, and on this year’s team, Sergio and Blake are much more important and they should get the respect of a starter and his backup, rather than two guys occupying the space of another…
I agree on this. I think we can win championships with a Blake/Sergio rotation. And I am convinced that, for now, either of those guys is probably quite a bit more effective at running the break. Nate isn’t stupid. If Bayless were really ready, he’d be in there.
But I don’t see any reason to bash on Bayless’ obvious potential because of that. The kid has the potential to supersede one or both of those PGs. In fact, he has the potential to be the guy who takes over and rises to the top when Roy goes out for a few games.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
Both Blake and Sergio CAN run the break
I wasn’t saying that at all.
What I am saying is that Bayless brings a threat that they don’t bring, and that it is very, very valuable on the break.
If you played organized ball, didn’t your coach ever tell you the first requirement in defending the break is to stop the guy with the ball from taking it all the way? Every coach I ever had always said that.
You described two types of PG. Neither of those descriptions fit Sergio or Steve. Nor am I convinced that Jerryd is at all what you are suggesting he is.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
Tony Parker is a good description
And, he was NOT a natural distributor early on either.
But Bayless will likely become a much better defender, and he has a lot bigger of a body already as well.
I’ve often said Monta Ellis with a Brain, and defense— basically, the perfect guy next to Roy, and someone else who can get his shot on his own and be a one man fast break. I dislike Monta and Arenas’ defense, so I hope THAT is what makes Bayless different from other short SGs who play PG.
He hasn’t hit jumpers for squat yet in his limited time, but we know he can shoot. Parker and Devin Harris and Monta weren’t as good of shooters at the same age (well, in theory of course).
Worrying about Bayless when he has barely played a full NBA game worth of minutes at the age of 20, and with the record of drafting our current management has… huh. Some people just wanna worry and nitpick, I guess! He’s many years away from making us worry, as long as he keeps working hard and taking his vitamins.
That athleticism— ELITE athleticism, not sneaky Brandon Roy athleticism—, the work ethic, and need and desire to be great, does not fail without a catastrophic injury.
I think some people worry about him because they don’t get to see him (we’re a good team now, not much time to develop a PG) and some don’t like him because they see him as a threat to their Boy-Toy favorite player. That’s fine. The players and the management team will decide all of this for us, of course.
Mortimer
Tony Parker is a great comparison for where JBays style of play appears to be going....
The problem is, Tony Parker is pretty much a superhuman when it comes to getting into the paint and scoring. His points in the paint numbers rival the top centers and power forwards in the league, which is pretty much unheard of. I think if you are hoping Bayless can dominate the paint with his scoring like Parker does, you are probably setting yourself up for disappointment.
RUDY > MJ
To add to that...
If you look at the other score first pg’s(TJ Ford, Arenas, Ellis, AI etc…), they are generally on moderately good teams but rarely on contenders. Dont get me wrong, there are a lot of good point guards that can score, but they generally set up their offense by being a distributor first….
RUDY > MJ
Those moderately good teams
don’t have Brandon Roy.
Remember the articles last year about Blake having to learn how to adjust his game and play like a 2 on offense because of Brandon’s unique skill set?
But Blake is only a 2 when it comes to spot up shooting. Bayless can be an offensive 2 with the threat to shoot OR penetrate, and a defensive 1.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
I don't think anyone
expects him to be as good at it as Parker. I said Tony Parker light. That’s not the point. The point is that style is a good fit next to Brandon.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
I'll repost my thoughts as well
Norsktroll pointed me in the right direction, and my comment fits better here I think!
Bayless will show us why he is Bayless at least a little bit before Roy comes back.
Other than that, it is so, so, so, so early to even WORRY about a kid with that elite athleticism (Telfair ain’t got nuthin’ on Bayless), work ethic, and smarts. In short, he is 20, and on a good team.
If he was on the Thunder, where he shoulda’ got drafted talent wise, he’d be putting up 15/3/4/1 and be in the slam dunk contest.
Just gotta give him time to become a more complete PG, which is always tough, and to fit into a role on a good team. For a bad team, he’d be set free to learn on the fly for better or worse. Win, lose, doesn’t really matter. We wanna develop him, but not at the cost of winning right now. So, he is relegated to spot minutes AND fitting a role that isn’t natural to him.
Time and patience. He’s got all the tools, and the drive to get the most out of them. I don’t worry about Bayless.
Mortimer
That video of all those dunks
changed my mind. He’s not a good fit for this team after all.
He and Oden are likely to break each other’s arms trying to dunk at the same time.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
Bayless does that every day
In that article about how hard he is working it says he does those drills every day.
by danielfarrell on Jan 6, 2009 3:53 PM PST up reply actions
Greg will forget
that it’s Bayless, and will think it is Sergio tossing him an alleyoop when he sees the ball go up. He will go get it, and put it down.
Sadly, Jerryd’s palm will still be attached to the ball.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
JB
I don’t think anyone realizes the potential Bayless has in him. I am a huge fan, I want him to stay. He leaves over my dead body.
He has barely even played, give him more time. A guy like Travis who have been here for 6 years gets more wiggle room in the “jump to conclusions” department.
www.bustabucket.com
Different teams though...
We don’t have 5 years to invest in Bayless like we had with Outlaw. Bayless isn’t joining a team that finished 27-55…
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 2:13 PM PST up reply actions
You really think
that Bayless and Travis are the same?
We have this year and next to invest in Bayless. Blake and Sergio are holding the fort adequately. I mostly expect Bayless to move up well before next year is over, perhaps before the end of this year, but even if he doesn’t earn a rotation spot until his third year, we’re adequate at the point until then.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
Bayless in his 6th year will look less confused than Travis
by southern oregon on Jan 6, 2009 2:29 PM PST up reply actions
One would hope...
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 2:32 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe we should wait
until he’s played 6 games (besides garbage time) to decide whether or not it will take him six years.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
Really?
If David Lee was available right now, straight up for Jerryd Bayless, you wouldn’t pull the trigger?
There’s an advantage and a disadvantage to waiting… As soon as we know, more or less, what type of player he’s going to be, so will the rest of the league.
Right now, we could “potentially” grab a piece of the championship puzzle (high quality back-up banger) simply by dangling some “potential” in front of the Knicks.
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 2:45 PM PST up reply actions
Good point
I suppose I don’t see David Lee as critical as Bayless has potential.
Change it to sergio and i’m in.
Greg Oden, where posters happen.
I am a Rex honk but I would trade him straight up for David Lee so fast that I would need a new fax machine from having burned up the old one sending in the paperwork so fast to the league office...
"Now with a non-provocative footer!"
......and given the dubious value of the next draft pick, given the bloated roster and 900 second round picks, I'd toss in the #1 pick too, assuming Lee got signed and traded or committed to signing...
"Now with a non-provocative footer!"
According to Quick, the Blazers don't think that highly about Lee
This summer a deal with David Lee was offered to the Blazers, but ultimately the Blazers rejected the deal, which involved Jarrett Jack and the Blazers’ first round pick.
If you scroll up, Chad Ford seems to agree.
So, here's a follow up question...
What does Sergio have to do to get some love?
In John Hollinger’s world of basketball, Sergio is…
…A more reliable outside shooter than Bayless.
…Has better RUDY court vision.
…Runs the offense with more efficiency.
…And has made efforts to improve his defense, although it is still not spectacular by any means.
Young point guards with his assist-to-turnover ratio are rare but it seems like we’d value him somewhere around the [Fred] Jones-Dixon line.
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 4:03 PM PST up reply actions
I've been happy with Sergio, personally
I agree with those who say Bayless ain’t in competition with Sergio, he’s in competition with Blake.
And, it’s a competition for later on and the players will decide it.
I wouldn’t wanna give Sergio up, but I’d say he has pretty good value as his passing ability would be very intriguing for most any NBA GM, looking for a cheap backup.
M—
I now see the appeal of Sergio. But can you not see the terminal flaw with his game?
……………………….. The Lakers announcers were laughing at his perimeter shots…
"Now with a non-provocative footer!"
"I didn't hear 'bank' on that one there..."
…………. “Oh, I hear the bank all right!”
"Now with a non-provocative footer!"
Oh man those were bad
That sort of shooting is why I don’t think he is NECESSARILY a natural fit for D’Antoni-ball.
His system seems to need a PG to be a threat to score, and Sergio ain’t a threat to score. It would make his world sooooo much easier if he could…!
I mean, he can penetrate, but doesn’t finish like, say, Rondo (who also can’t shoot) does, and being able to at least score INSIDE makes the defense have to play honest and makes Rondo a threat. Sergio just doesn’t have to be guarded, and if he isn’t attracting the defense he isn’t getting people open shots.
The moment in the Laker game was funny… right on cue, Sergio just hammers the ball into the backboard. Ooph.
Mortimer
had to laugh at ooph
Do you know what you are?...You are What U is..You is what U Am..A cow don't make Ham...you ain't what u Not...so see what you got..You are what U is..And that's all it 'tis.... F.Zappa
sergio used to be able to shoot the ball
i think their would be improvement in D’antony’z system. im to the point that i think it would be best for all parties to free sergio, add a realiable three point shot, and sergio could becoum a perinal allstar. but that not worth firering nate over, when so much of the other youth is commin along, and ther is a ton of room for abyless to be a good fit hear, he wants it bad enough.
December 18, 2008.
"Roy is Roy, and if I were to bet my life on a game of 5-on-5, I’d bet on whichever team Roy was playing on." by HurraKane212
"(And the paper in Spain) says that Sergio is unhappy with his playing time..."
(as if on cue, a horrific brick that doesn’t draw iron)
…….." Hmmm, well maybe that’s why."
Now, ADMITTEDLY, Rex is suffering from the same lack of perimeter shooting disease. But there’s pretty clearly a big hole in Sergio’s game that MAY or MAY NOT be there in Rex’s game.
What Sergio DOES do GREAT — pass the ball. But you’ve gotta pack the shooters around him, non of this putting Channing Frye out there and praying…
"Now with a non-provocative footer!"
Even though I know some want to turn this
…into BAYLESS vs SERGIO, I’m going to resist making it like that and treat them seperately, like we would, say, Outlaw and Steve Blake. Criticizing one doesn’t mean I am praising or bashing the other, it is just what it is.
Bayless needs more development, but should be good.
Too many wanna throw that away or are skeptical about him because of… what did someone else figure out… 45 minutes of on-court play? It’s ridiculous.
I think some come into the Bayless discussions with clear biases.
Morty
timbo, you will also need to get this poster autograph by your new honk...
"Step up to my mic!!!" Joel's right and left fist
That is a very good question
And since I haven’t been watching practice, I can’t answer.
David Lee is a backup PF on this team. It means we are as good and deep and potentially dominant at PF for 48 minutes as we are at center. That is scary.
It also means that Steve Blake is our starting PG for the future, Sergio our backup. Few opportunities to upgrade will come our way — there aren’t any top quality PGs available this summer to get with our cap space, we won’t be getting any high lottery picks, and we have traded away our last really good potential of a top quality PG.
If I’m watching Jerryd in practice do the things I want to see from him, I probably don’t pull the trigger. I like Blake, but I would rather have Tony Parker light at the point.
If he’s struggling in practice, and doesn’t seem to be progressing the way we thought he would, I might do that trade.
Since LMA can play 35 mpg without much trouble, is 13 mpg from Lee at backup PF worth giving up the potential of a perfect fit at the point? I’m doubtful that it is.
But I can easily see why someone would pull the trigger, and if KP did, I certainly wouldn’t say it was wrong to do so. But apparently, he isn’t doing so, and I think that is probably the best thing to do.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
YES.
David Lee is a backup PF on this team. It means we are as good and deep and potentially dominant at PF for 48 minutes as we are at center. That is scary.
Get that front line finished and then figure out what you need to do at PG.
Marty will be back and he’s the guy at the 3.
Whatever it takes, get Lee or a Lee type to back up LMA or that can take big time when LMA doesn’t show up.
"Now with a non-provocative footer!"
Is backup PF
more important than starting PG?
Pretty hard to make that case. Especially since backup PFs are more readily available than starting PGs.
Of course, Jerryd isn’t a starting PG yet, and there’s no guarantee he ever will be, which is why there is no definitive answer to the question. But if KP and Nate are convinced he will be the starting PG in 3 years or less, there is no way they trade him for a backup PF. No way.
Well, one way — if they have another deal to get a legit big-time PG.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
I'd do that JBay for Lee trade...
… if I could turn around and flip LMA for a great PG or SF (ie Danny Granger or Devin Harris). Since that’s unlikely to happen, its a tough trade to justify.
Boomshakalaka
No
I wouldn’t trade a backup PF (on this team) for a potential starting PG. Lee would be a huge get, but Bayless carries more long term value relative to this roster
Bayless has been testing the fences for weaknesses
by blazeraddict on Jan 6, 2009 11:12 PM PST up reply actions
Not at all...
Travis and Bayless are nothing alike, but their situations and resulting development timelines are as different as their personalities and abilities.
Travis had 5 years to do pretty much whatever he wanted with no accountability.
Allowing Bayless to do the same would inevitably handcuff Roy, Aldridge and Oden until Bayless joined their level…
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 3:05 PM PST up reply actions
I guarantee
It will not take Bayless 5 years to be ready. I’m willing to bet by this time next year, given an opportunity, Bayless is better than Sergio and Sergio is an afterthought here. But who knows what will happen.
www.bustabucket.com
I'm pro-Bayless but he's tradeable
Bayless looks like a likely ingredient in a lot of trade scenarios, if you think realistically about what other teams would want in return for a good player.
I said starter
If bayless is not going to be our star point guard, then we need a quality starter for the future. Blake IS a quality guard, so something more than blake isn’t star category but is “really darn good with potential” or “really darn good with experience and a few years left in the legs”.
I only see us trading for three reasons: draft pick in future, SF or PG. I think the SF position is fixed and PG is the only weak point of the future (when Webster returns and when Batum grows into his role.)
Sergio is amazing with moving the ball, but I’ve noticed his failure to notice team mates and sometimes confusion on the floor. There may be reasons for it, but that makes me nervous and leads me to question his place on the team. I don’t feel like he’s a leader and I’d prefer that our point guard was the second leader on the team to go with Roy.
Frankly, i don’t think we’d get what I want for Bayless. I also want less for Sergio at this point than for Bayless. I don’t think Sergio works with nates style of play or that Sergio will be happy here.
Pro keeping bayless and I’d dump Sergio first, but not untouchable. Also the price isn’t cheap as bayless has strong potential.
Greg Oden, where posters happen.
I say starter at minimum with they key word being minimum
Another draft pick leaves us worse off unless we get a top 3 pick, but that’s not going to happen. We wouldn’t get better talent and we don’t need more rookies.
A role player is essentially worthless to us at this point. This team is full of roll players. One exception might be a ‘banger’ type PF who hustles and does the dirty work. But giving up a our summer league MVP before he even plays real minutes just to get a role player seems very shortsighted.
However, if Bayless was part of a deal (hopefully at the request of the other team to make the deal work and not our management giving him away) to land a quality starter then I would have to seriously consider it. He’s got value around the league and while he could end up fitting our needs I think it’ll end up being sorta jury rigged in there.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
If KP wants a banger
he can draft one with our first rounder. Psycho T is the perfect kind of role player for this team.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
true
but drafting one is very different from trading for someone we know is a banger in the NBA, not just college.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
That is true as well
BUT, we’ve seen year in and year out that a good, hustling, banging backup PF is available in both the 1st and 2nd round, often a few times over.
A guy who can potentially be a starting PG, an allstar even, isn’t available all the time.
We would be taking a chance on someone, but backup banging PF is the easier player to find by far.
Mortimer
Yeah
KP can spend all his second rounders on banging PFs, and see who survives.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
Uggh...
“Anemic” T has too much hype to fall into the “backup banger” category. He’ll most likely get drafted as a top 15 pick…
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 3:53 PM PST up reply actions
Then somebody else
will be available. They are always out there, and if KP wants one, he’ll find one.
I’ll be surprised if he goes in the top 15 though.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
disgusting...i would never want to do a round with KP now
"Step up to my mic!!!" Joel's right and left fist
I could see Bayless as being part of a multi-player deal that involves David Lee, and I wouldn't be too upset...
………………………………… The key think is to get VALUE in the deal. I would absolutely move Sergio before I moved Rex, but if the Knicks, for whatever reason, wanted him over Sergio in a Lee deal, done’s done.
You don’t trade Rex for a draft pick. And you don’t probably trade him straight up for a player either. It’ll be a multiplayer deal that happens if Lee goes to market. I want him BAD.
Rex is gonna be a good player in the NBA, just not this year.
"Now with a non-provocative footer!"
Lee is of limited value to us
because he’ll only get limited minutes behind Aldridge.
He’s worth more to other teams.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
Ben
Everything in your 1st paragraph rings as the truth to me as well. Besides, Management won’t let Bayless become another Jermaine O’neal — I would hope.
when i get sad, i stop being sad & become awesome again. true story.
but the skittles won't turn the ball over
that’s what we have him for right?
Only kidding
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
Maybe I'd even except something that's only marginally less damaging to my health.
Like heroin or something.
"Respect everyone, fear no one." -TP
i have a gut feeling somehow we end up with Gerald Wallace but
we won’t have to give Rex away since Charlotte just wants money in their pocket…and MJ still believe the Stache is the next coming of Larry Legend.
"Step up to my mic!!!" Joel's right and left fist
Bobcats beating the Celtics in the first half...
Gerald Wallace: 19 pts, 1 ast, 3 reb
"Step up to my mic!!!" Joel's right and left fist
ugh
this feals so wrong, kant bayless just start making his shots so all this noise could go away, its so noisy in hear.
December 18, 2008.
"Roy is Roy, and if I were to bet my life on a game of 5-on-5, I’d bet on whichever team Roy was playing on." by HurraKane212
ugh
this feals so wrong, kant Outlaw just start making his shots so all this noise could go away, its so noisy in hear. – Elgin
It doesn't mean you should just because you can. Like Abraham and Ishmael, fighting over sand - it doesn't mean you should just because you can. That is a fact of life. - Adrian Belew
lol, agreed
December 18, 2008.
"Roy is Roy, and if I were to bet my life on a game of 5-on-5, I’d bet on whichever team Roy was playing on." by HurraKane212
Let's play...Which GM said this:
from ESPN Insider
One team that may go after Eddy Curry, now that the Knick center appears ready to resume playing, is the Blazers.
Portland president Kevin Pritchard, who’s been after David Lee for years, quietly scouted a Knick preseason game.
“They’ll do anything for a big man,” a league source said. — New York Post
"Step up to my mic!!!" Joel's right and left fist
trying the quote again
One team that may go after Eddy Curry, now that the Knick center appears ready to resume playing, is the Blazers.
Portland president Kevin Pritchard, who’s been after David Lee for years, quietly scouted a Knick preseason game.
“They’ll do anything for a big man,” a league source said. — New York Post
"Step up to my mic!!!" Joel's right and left fist
Vecsey was probably laughing all morning after typing this
KP doesn’t even seem to think that highly of Lee (see Quick article linked by Ben above). What use would he have for Eddy Curry? Whose contract is god awful and runs through 2010/11. I can see Eddy end up on only three teams right now: The Knicks, if nobody is dumb enough to trade for him. Charlotte, because the MJ and Brown brain trust actually might be that desperate and dumb. And Chicago, if they find absolutely nobody else and/or Pax has a seizure.
We're clearing cap space...
Get ready for the ECEC in 2010/11!
Clear cap space for Derrick Rose!
"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)
by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jan 6, 2009 5:54 PM PST up reply actions
Yes
We have been wanting a true big man like Curry for a long time now.
I’m sick of these damn big man tweeners like Oden, Przy, and LMA! They’re all like 6’9" or something, and slow as dirt. POOP dirt.
If any team in the NBA needs a big man, it’s the team with a #1 Center of the Decade draft pick currently in his rookie year and the Best Backup Center in the NBA. Portland CRAVES Eddy “Yellow” Curry!
Mortimer
you sound like Danny Ainge...
he’s probably the league source that said they’ll do anything for a big man
"Step up to my mic!!!" Joel's right and left fist
How about we get rid of GO and Przy
and bring in Curry and Magliore. THAT’S the ticket!!
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
It's too early to trade Rex
Let’s let him test the fences a while longer before we decide. Why are we worried about this? – Elgin
It doesn't mean you should just because you can. Like Abraham and Ishmael, fighting over sand - it doesn't mean you should just because you can. That is a fact of life. - Adrian Belew
Agreed
The only way I would saydo it is if the highly unlikely Rubio scenario came up. Any other PG I would trade Rex for is already untouchable
Bayless has been testing the fences for weaknesses
i think rubio is over-rated...
he reminds me of Sergio
"Step up to my mic!!!" Joel's right and left fist
I'd hate to see any of our point guards go
for some guy we got totally on speculation.
If any of these guys go, I want a known quantity in return.
And we definitely need to make some two-for-one or four-for-two type trades since we’re so loaded. If we make any trades at all.
I gotta think that they are just going to stand pat and let this group develop. And as long as they don’t begin to prey on each other, as long as they enjoy each other’s company and being on each other’s team, I think that’s the best strategy. – Elgin
It doesn't mean you should just because you can. Like Abraham and Ishmael, fighting over sand - it doesn't mean you should just because you can. That is a fact of life. - Adrian Belew
I think when Martell return
we could see some minutes shrink/mild grousing begin. Webster is pretty much a domino that pushes down SF minutes for Batum, Outlaw, and Rudy, and the backup PF slot will be even tighter if Travis is getting minutes there. And that is presuming he comes back at 15-20 minutes per game. The time for a consolidation trade is definitely coming
Bayless has been testing the fences for weaknesses
I agree
but only if the grousing that you predict actually happens. – Elgin
It doesn't mean you should just because you can. Like Abraham and Ishmael, fighting over sand - it doesn't mean you should just because you can. That is a fact of life. - Adrian Belew
and if it's more than mild grousing.
It doesn't mean you should just because you can. Like Abraham and Ishmael, fighting over sand - it doesn't mean you should just because you can. That is a fact of life. - Adrian Belew
just reposting what i said in the david lee thread
here
Possibly a motivator for ben to post this thread, or so i’d like to think.
Activate Shavlik Randolph
This is ridiculous
None of us has seen NEARLY enough of JB to make an educated guess as to his value. By contrast, KP has seen Bayless day in & day out in practice. So if he does trade him, I’m sure he’ll insist on fair value.
That out of the way, what’s my impression of JB? In summer league, he looked like Jarrett Jack on steroids: another undersized two guard, but with amazing hops. (That was always a limitation for Jack—he could barely dunk on a GOOD day.) It appeared possible that, with a couple of seasons’ grooming, JB could become a starting point guard. In the meanwhile, I thought he’d be an effective combo guard off the bench (i.e., a JJ upgrade).
In his VERY limited actual playing time this season with the Blazers, JB has appeared the same way he did in summer league—but extremely tight & nervous. So nervous that he can’t do the things that are second nature to him—like hitting wide-open shots. That’s probably to be expected, but it makes any attempt to assess JB’s ultimate value to the Blazers virtually impossible.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Well I heart me some fierce B-Rex
but I would trade him, travis (don’t hate me ann), frye and RLEC for Tayshaun Prince in a heartbeat.
Rudy for ROY
Campaign 08-09
"Rudy is not everyday a shooter." ~Rudy Fernandez
serious?
Nic Batum is gonna be better than Tayshaun!!!
"Step up to my mic!!!" Joel's right and left fist
I never said get rid of Batum
Leave him and get Prince, and we can have the real Prince and Mini Prince on the same team. Hey, throw Martell in while we’re at it. Why not?
Rudy for ROY
Campaign 08-09
"Rudy is not everyday a shooter." ~Rudy Fernandez
Not at all! We both
ummm support Rudy. ;0
"Aneurysm".
When Outlaw wins a game on a last-second shot, it’s called an "annthefaneurysm". QualityPie
Oops. Meant for Twiggs.
"Aneurysm".
When Outlaw wins a game on a last-second shot, it’s called an "annthefaneurysm". QualityPie
LOL
I got it. Nah, actually I love when Travis plays power forward, so let’s keep him. Still I would trade the others (NOT Batum) for Prince. Then Ann will still talk to me.
Rudy for ROY
Campaign 08-09
"Rudy is not everyday a shooter." ~Rudy Fernandez
I like Pay-Up a lot.
I wish we had more minutes for him. But if we are talking summer league, didn’t Quincy Douby score more than him in their head to head match up?
My favorite teams are the Blazers and any team that is playing the Lakers.
He's got the springs...
…………………………. everything on that video at the rim…
"Now with a non-provocative footer!"
I would be surprised
to find out that people that Quick talks to from the organization were lying to him. What with Quick turning into a complete tool with a huge head lately.
Oden/Pryz
LMA/Frye
WebFoot/Trout
Roy/Rudy
Blake/Bayless
**Champs 08-09**
by BigCelPhone on Jan 6, 2009 7:55 PM PST reply actions
*wouldn't*
Oden/Pryz
LMA/Frye
WebFoot/Trout
Roy/Rudy
Blake/Bayless
**Champs 08-09**
by BigCelPhone on Jan 6, 2009 7:55 PM PST reply actions
Not feeling it
Bayless went #11 in a weak, PG heavy draft. He joined such luminaries as Qyntel Woods in winning summer league MVP. He hasn’t been good enough this year to beat out Sergio, Rudy, or Blake for time. It’s a small sample size, but he’s looked bad out there so far.
None of this is to say that he won’t become a good player, but to hesitate to trade him for a championship level starter or all-star? Really tough to understand that, especially when we’re a team looking to consolidate youth and quantity into experience and quality.
If the Blazers are going to bring in a serious player with RLEC and/or cap room, it’ll be at the expense of playing time for the kids.
by Engineering Problem on Jan 6, 2009 11:19 PM PST reply actions
Testy in here
I don’t think I’ve seen JScot and Mortimer (two of my BE favorites) so testy, along with everyone else in here.
Relax, everyone, even if KP doesn’t trade anyone this season we’ll be fine.
"...we have so many experts who think that you have to play defense, you have to rebound, you have to be a possession coach, you have to execute. I just laugh. Explosive offense is not as intimidating as dominant defense. But it is scary when you don't know how to stop someone." - George Karl, Nuggets coach
Wow
Testy? Sorry if I came across that way, sure didn’t mean to, and not really feeling testy at all. Just enjoying the discussion. I didn’t think Morty was, either.
If KP does or doesn’t trade anyone this season, either way, we’ll be fine. If we make no roster moves at all except to draft a backup PF, we’ll be fine.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
I always enjoy your posts
they just seemed to have a bit more of an edge to them in this discussion for some reason.
I’d actually kind of like to see this team not make any more major moves.
"...we have so many experts who think that you have to play defense, you have to rebound, you have to be a possession coach, you have to execute. I just laugh. Explosive offense is not as intimidating as dominant defense. But it is scary when you don't know how to stop someone." - George Karl, Nuggets coach
BTW
I singled out you and Mortimer because I respect you two and knew you could take it.
"...we have so many experts who think that you have to play defense, you have to rebound, you have to be a possession coach, you have to execute. I just laugh. Explosive offense is not as intimidating as dominant defense. But it is scary when you don't know how to stop someone." - George Karl, Nuggets coach
Wah!!!!
Dave, he PICKED on me!
I didn’t mind getting singled out, of course, but I’d rather not be edgy, or even give the impression I am. Maybe I was tired or something.
But thanks for the nice comments.
I don’t really want us to make any more major moves, either, but won’t be surprised if it happens, nor would I say it is a bad idea. Just not what I’d really like to see.
If you can't convince them, confuse them -- Harry Truman, U.S. President
Hmm
Well, I don’t think I was testy either, but I don’t like it if it came across that way. Pointing out flaws in arguments shouldn’t be seen as testy, if ya asks me! Good, fun, clean debate backed up with the evidence of what gave us our convictions.
But of course, since everyone knows Jamon51 is a jerk, I don’t expect you’d understand. You’re too busy having a SMELLY FACE.
I WASN’T TESTY TILL YOU SHOWEDS UPS, OOOOOOOOOOOOOH YOU PICKLED MY GRITS!
To me, I felt like any strictly-Sergio themed thread gets a LOT testier and emotional. This one mostly stayed as “well, he’s able to do this and that athletically, we know he works hard, he’ll probably be good” with a few “NO HE WON’T BE GOOD CUZ I SAID SO” mixed in. But that’s fine, I really don’t think it got testy. It got ZESTY (I know someone who still references that old Taco Bell commercial and if he hadn’t gotten married at age 30 he’d still be a virgin. Don’t reference the Taco Bell “ZESTY” commercial 8 years after its relevance is the lesson of this thread).
Almost by default, I’m in the “wait and see what we got” crowd. ESPECIALLY while Oden is a rookie, let alone Bayless and Batum. I agree with ya, we can’t worry so much as to fight amongst ourselves, not with the future we got cookin’.
Mortimer
Okay, zesty it is
And I am right there beside you in the “wait and see” crowd. I’ll do my trades in NBA 2k9 thank you very much.
The funny thing is that my lineup sounds like one that was constructed in the trading post on BE:
Derrick Rose (yeah, got him for Bayless and trash, wouldn’t happen)
B Roy
Caron Butler (for Aldridge + Outlaw)
David Lee (signed as a free agent summer 2009)
Oden
Bench
Gerald Wallace (got him for Webster + Blake I think)
Przy
Rudy
some random throw-ins and draft picks
Now wouldn’t THAT be a lineup?!? But it took a lot of pie-in-the-sky wouldn’t-ever-happen trades to do it, and I’d rather keep everyone and see what happens.
"...we have so many experts who think that you have to play defense, you have to rebound, you have to be a possession coach, you have to execute. I just laugh. Explosive offense is not as intimidating as dominant defense. But it is scary when you don't know how to stop someone." - George Karl, Nuggets coach
I wanted to vote for him to be cut so the team won't have to pay his salary
I just read most of the comments and I just don’t get it. Normally in sports, when there is competition on a team for playing time, that competition makes both players better and benefits the team… Unless they are on the Blazers, then the fans don’t want competition for their favorite player, they want any threats of playing time for their favorite player eliminated.
Since there is a junk drawer and a trade drawer, maybe Blazers Edge needs a Bash a Blazer post every day.
Soooo
A junk drawer, trade drawer, and a bash drawer? That sounds like a good idea. It would get rid of the daily Outlaw, and LMA posts.
My favorite teams are the Blazers and any team that is playing the Lakers.
by OCBlazerFan1 on Jan 7, 2009 7:05 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe Dave and Ben could write alternating weekly articles on a specific player
B-Roy shoots more than MJ. Why LMA will wash out. Travis couldn’t hit the sea when falling out of a boat on the ocean. Sergio’s shot is as flat as the earth before Columbus. B-Rex couldn’t even find Yao Ming in the post. Let’s hope Greg is Benjamin Button, or at least better than Eddy Curry. How come Martell can score 20 points in one quarter, but never more than 30. So many possibilities…
We could call it “negative psychology weekly”.
+1
Let’s get rid of the trade-Outlaw, trade-Frye, trade-Bayless, trade-etc posts and stick ‘em somewhere where I don’t have to read them. – Elgin
It doesn't mean you should just because you can. Like Abraham and Ishmael, fighting over sand - it doesn't mean you should just because you can. That is a fact of life. - Adrian Belew
TiH
I love ya bruh but we get it, you hate the negative comments towards playerst. Thats fine and dandy but it seems like you have gone from fun loving, witty guy, to a grumpy ol’ guss. We get that you don’t like anybody “bashing” on a player. We get that you think because player X is competition with player Y, BEdgers will ultimately choose one player to love and one player to hate. We get it. This is just a disussion my tan friend….
PS I still blame you for my sunburn I got in Hawaii…
RUDY > MJ
All you had to do was axe me to rub some sunblock on you
I don’t mind the discussions, what bothers me is that instead of people saying player X is better than player Y because of Z, it turns into player Y sucks.
thats becouse player y suks
December 18, 2008.
"Roy is Roy, and if I were to bet my life on a game of 5-on-5, I’d bet on whichever team Roy was playing on." by HurraKane212
lol Sergio is a veteran, Bayless is a rookie - why would you ever compare the two?
I don’t understand this trade Bayless talk at all. I mean yeah if you have to as a throw-in to get a great player, that’s one thing. But trading him just to trade him?
How can some of you guys still make excuses for Outlaw in year six and condemn Bayless in year one? Crazy….
Blazer Fan
It's okay to compare them skill-wise
because they’re the two backup point guards on this team. But it’s not fair to draw conclusions about Bayless yet.
"...we have so many experts who think that you have to play defense, you have to rebound, you have to be a possession coach, you have to execute. I just laugh. Explosive offense is not as intimidating as dominant defense. But it is scary when you don't know how to stop someone." - George Karl, Nuggets coach
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
NBA Playoffs Content Module
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
