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Playoff odds make no sense

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/playoffodds

In the west, Hollinger's playoff odds strike me as very strange -

LA - 100.0%

Denver - 99.3%

New Orleans - 98.9%

Portland - 97.4%

Houston - 95.4%

San Antonio - 95.3%

Phoenix - 85.9%

Utah - 72.0%

Dallas - 51.9%

That's right - nine teams with over a fifty percent chance of making the playoffs.  I guess the West really is stacked?  I know there must be some mathematical explanation for this, but I still won't be able to buy it.   Anyway, the good news is that the Blazers are currently firmly in 4th place on this list - a very good sign.

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seems about right to me man

the west is effing stacked.

Say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

by aryamehr on Jan 28, 2009 11:08 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Think of it this way

With 8 playoff spots, there is enough “likely-to-make-it” to spread out among nine teams.

by Gargen on Jan 28, 2009 11:10 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Right

Essentially, this is an “800 point” system, where at the end of the season each team that made the playoffs has 100 points. The aggregate likelihood of all teams making the playoffs in the Western Conference must equal 800 points.

If you subtract the above values from 800, you get an additional 5 point balance (which is about what is offered to the remaining teams, most to Minnesota).

BP

by BlazersPro on Jan 28, 2009 11:17 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I believe...

that if you add up the total Western Conference Playoff odds, the number should be 800%

I heart taxes.

by everett on Jan 28, 2009 11:17 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The interesting debate I see within the system is not mathematical

I get that part. But let’s take Portland, for instance. The odds are at 97.4% right now. If the Blazers don’t make the playoffs, is the prediction right or wrong? Is there something wrong with the analysis or did the 2.6% option just happen?

—Dave

by Dave on Jan 28, 2009 11:34 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Even more confusing

The Blazers were 100% to make the playoffs a month or so ago. Shouldn’t we be 100% for the rest of the season if the formula used is correct?

Travis Outlaw is an alien, but in a good way.

Awesome Graphic was provided by CIC, because he felt like he should be hazed.

by Clevelander among roses on Jan 28, 2009 11:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the simulation doesn't give enough weight to uncertainty.

At least, early in the year it doesn’t. More uncertainty would move everyone’s percent closer to 53.

However, I don’t think it was actually predicting 100.0000. Just rounding to 100. And probability is just based on what you know, so every time you add a new piece of information, the probability should change. There’s nothing wrong with a prediction changing from 99% to something way lower when new information is added, as long as it doesn’t happen too often.

by pualo on Jan 28, 2009 11:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Precisely correct on the rounding

We were probably about 99.6% likely to make it within the model. After that, we lost some games which zapped our probability down a couple points.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jan 29, 2009 12:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If I recall correctly

out of the 5000 times that Hollinger simulates the season, the Blazers made it 4997 times on that particular day.

by tingeyga on Jan 29, 2009 1:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It plays out the numbers that are plugged in

It’s just taking the statistics so far up until that certain point in the season, and playing them out, accounting for point differential, home vs away games, strength of schedule, etc.

If Portland continued playing the exact way they were playing when they were predicted 100, then that 100 would presumably be correct, and stay at 100%.

Obviously, we had the injury to Roy, and their level of play dropped down, so the odds have adjusted.

Plus, keep in mind what those percentages are based on: the numbers plugged in, as I mentioned above, played out with an element of randomness (I dont know what exactly that is) for the season, 5,000 times, and then that 100% means that in the simulation Portland made the playoffs 100% of the time… so it’s just relating the results of the simulation when run 5000 times.

Given that teams continue playign exactly as they have up until that point, it is a pretty rock solid system. Obviously that doesnt happen—but that’s the point—it is taking what the teams have done so far as if it were representative of the whole season. It’s not supposed to account for uncertainty—if it did, it would be more of a “prediction” and more speculative. It isn’t—it’s a projection based on a simulation based on the numbers to date. It’s not perfect, but keeping those factors in mind, I think it’s really informative.

by TimG on Jan 28, 2009 11:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's a snapshot, not a movie

The playoff odds are calculated daily based on the current standings, stats, and their relative rankings. They are saying that if everything continues exactly as it is right now, the statistics say that Portland has a 97.4% chance of making the playoffs. Since that assumption is statistically nearly impossible, the odds must be recalculated with every new data point.

It’s not a question of whether the prediction is right or wrong. In fact, it’s not really a prediction at all, since the underlying assumptions will not hold true for the rest of the season.

What would be more interesting to me is the variability of the odds for a given team over the course of the season. If the Blazers’ playoff odds were really high in the early season, then dropped to middlin’ in the middle season, then rose again in the late season, there could be some really interesting statistical analyses of what changed in the Blazers’ play to cause that change. I also don’t know how Hollinger’s system deals with a very small number of games remaining. I don’t remember what happened at the end of last season and what patterns there were in teams’ separation into categories of 0% and 100%. That’s interesting stuff, too.

< /war >

by Diesel10 on Jan 28, 2009 11:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Coolstandings.com charts their playoff odds

so that you can visually see the playoff likelyhood progression. Portland’s chart looks like this:

The top line is playoff odds. The bottom line is winning the division.

by tingeyga on Jan 29, 2009 2:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

An easy way to word it

Is to say “The odds a team will make it based on how they are playing right now.”

by ericande on Jan 28, 2009 11:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good question

You cannot assess the validity of a predicted probability with a single event
In general, you cannot assess a predicted probability with a single event. You need many events.

Here’s a slightly simplified example: suppose I predict that teams that are favored to win by 10 points in Vegas have a .70 chance of winning. Now, if the favored team loses, does that invalidate the claim or not? There’s no way of saying. But, if you look at a year of games (or so) and see that teams favored by 10 points in fact win 70% of the time, then the prediction seems about right.

So, how did you assess the validity of Hollinger’s playoff odds. IAt first blush, it seems like you can’t because he has more predicted playoff odds than actual seasons. But, something like the following might be a good way to assess the system:

Re-run the system and the half-way point of the season. This gives you a predicted probability for each season. For each season give the prediction a 1 if correct and a 0 if not correct. That is, if the predicted probability was .50001, he predicts they do make the playoffs and that prediction gets a 1.

Next, calculate the percentage correct for each predicted percentage (probably need to make “bins” of about 2 percentage points 0-2, 2.00001-4,4.0001-6, etc). Then you could see how close the predicted probabilities match the percentage correct. You’d like to see teams predicted to make the playoffs with a probability of .6 to make the playoffs about 60% of the time.

In fact, this is roughly how I would create predictions, rather than the method that Hollinger uses.

Here is all you would need to do: calculate a power rating for each team for each day of the season. Run a probit/logit regression on making the playoffs using the power ranking and number of games played as your independent variables (interacted). Use the results to predicted probabilities in the current season.

by PoliSam on Jan 29, 2009 7:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Two other friends and I draw marbles out of a bag

There are 3 marbles in a bag, 2 blue and 1 yellow. Picking randomly, my friends and I each have a 66% chance to get a blue marble. Though all 3 of us have over a 50% chance of getting a blue marble, only 2 of us will.

Travis Outlaw is an alien, but in a good way.

Awesome Graphic was provided by CIC, because he felt like he should be hazed.

by Clevelander among roses on Jan 28, 2009 11:36 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

correction

67% chance, not 66%.

Travis Outlaw is an alien, but in a good way.

Awesome Graphic was provided by CIC, because he felt like he should be hazed.

by Clevelander among roses on Jan 28, 2009 11:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think my brain just exploded...

I know less than half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

by haildablazer on Jan 29, 2009 1:10 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Larry Miller sent out a letter

warning any team that get’s the 8th seed in the event of the Blazers not making the playoffs will face legal consequences.

by Bskey on Jan 29, 2009 3:26 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Only if they did it

for the purpose of hitting the Blazers financially. If they did it to help their own franchise, we have no objection.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jan 29, 2009 4:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We would lose a lot in playoff ticket revenue

I hope Larry has the letter already saved and written, and he just needs to hit SEND.

THE OTHER TEAMS GOTTA STOP MUCKIN’ WITH OUR GOODS. Don’t they know we are in a joint venture, Jscot?!

Morty

by Mortimer on Jan 29, 2009 4:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think if the #8 seed

signed Darius to a guaranteed contract beat the L@kers in the first round, it would be hard to prove our case.

I just think Nate should stop messing around and start winning a few ball games so Larry doesn’t have to send that email. Danny Ainge would leak it to the press, some Eastern Conference owner would release an open response to the media, and then nobody would want to trade with us when our top nine players (sorry Channing) all make the all-star game and we have to trade some of them away for future draft picks to help us keep the dynasty going after 2025.

Larry Miller, KP, and Paul Allen take the blame, but it is all Nate’s fault. Everything. He could have arranged a workout for Darius that would have removed any doubt make SURE we make the playoffs if he’d just quit using this “building for the future” excuse, tell Jerryd to pass the ball every once in a while, tell Greg to quit fouling, bench every player who doesn’t fight through a pick like Blake did, and tell LMA to quit squeezing the Charmin (is Charmin one of the Blazer Dancers? I never did understand this stuff).

I would say that we should fire Nate, but we can’t do that. We would win everything every year if we didn’t have Nate. And that wouldn’t be fair to our joint venture partners. They would sue us.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jan 29, 2009 5:06 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

rek

Man, we should forfeit before roy’s hammy explodes, knocking him into LMA’s ear who loses his balance and hits Greg’s knee… - HurraKane212

http://www.nba.com/news/miles_10_080919.html

by maid tu rek on Jan 29, 2009 4:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You're just a "homer reccer."

:-P

I know less than half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

by haildablazer on Jan 29, 2009 10:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the team that everyone is prematurely anointing is San Antonio. Yes they’ve had a nice month and they are getting healthy, but their schedule was a cakewalk in January, they have a brutal February coming up, and – they’re old (i.e. vulnerable to another injury).

I still think they’ll get in, but I wouldn’t put their odds at 95.3% with Dallas at only 51.9%. Now if/when they do get in, even as an 8 seed, then watch out, because they know how to win in the playoffs unlike us.

MLB2PDX!!! (someday...)

by The Cactus Leaguer on Jan 29, 2009 10:07 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

hopefully they can bookend their season that crapiily

an ‘arch form’ if you will? I don’t think that they will miss the playoffs though.

Don't Redeactivate Shavlik Randolph

by appel82 on Jan 29, 2009 10:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Last two

were wins at Phoenix and Utah. Road wins against two of the three teams least likely to catch them, increases the separation. They’re pretty much a lock barring major injury.

They are a good road team, they’ll get some wins in February.

They aren’t ready to die yet.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jan 30, 2009 5:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Playoff odds are useless imo

I think we were 100% at some point last year too. I’ll even take Power Rankings over playoff odds.

Blazer Fan

by leeroyjenkins on Jan 29, 2009 10:20 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Isn’t it exactly the same formula?

My HDTV is a torrented game that I can watch lag-free :(

Let LaMarcus keep the headband!

by inroywetrust on Jan 29, 2009 10:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Coolstandings had the Blazers peaking

at about 77% not long after the 13 game winning streak, but then it fell back down to 0% pretty quickly.

To me the biggest take away from the playoff probabilities is wether or not a teams probability stays fairly consistent. The Blazers have been around 90% since Thanksgiving while Dallas, Phoenix and Utah have been all over the board since then.

by tingeyga on Jan 29, 2009 10:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Extraneous variables

Hollinger admits his odds can’t take certain things into consideration.

1. Injuries- Makes good teams look worse early, and it makes a weaker teams who stay at 100% early look better.

2. Opponent injuries- Duncan/Manu/Parker/Bowen could all go down and they would still be at 100% chance to make playoffs, until the losses came flooding in.

3. Trades- Obvious one here

4. Streaks- This is the weird one. A big part of Hollinger’s equation is how the team has done in their last 10 games. Last year, Portland was 10-0 in their last 10. Hollinger uses this in his equation because how a team is playing now is a better predictor of success than how they played 2 months ago. (New York Giants in NFL this year.) HOWEVER, streaks also can be deceiving, as Portland’s was last year.

Hollinger’s equations just use probability for everything, this works to an extent, but probability can’t fully predict everything.

Let’s say I average 200 in bowling. (I’m at 199 right now, but 200 is easier.)
My Standard Deviation is 20. So I’ll be between 180 and 220 68% of the time and I will be between 160-240 95.5% of the time. A whopping 99.7% of my games will be between 140-260.
So, bowling a 279 my first game would be a 3/1000 occurence with these numbers. Are the odds of my second game being over 260 or under 140 still be 3/1000? The answer is NO. Obviously to be bowling above 260, something must be going right. Easy shot, I’m “feeling it,” or whatever else. So even though statistically I’m only bowling above 260 1.5/1000 games (the other 1.5 being under 140), the true odds of my doing it again get higher.

If this is confusing to people let’s use 3 point shooting. Player A and player B both average 50% from the 3 point line. Player A is 1/11 on the night and player B is 7/11. Who do you want shooting the 3? Player B, because for whatever reason player B is doing better on that night. Unlike flipping a coin, rolling a dice, etc, two players with the same overall probability of doing something can change on each given night.

Thus Hollinger’s probabilities cannot predict human variance with perfect accuracy.

/end long windedness

by Zaig on Jan 29, 2009 1:37 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

does hollinger take pt. differential into account. That’s probably why last year the probability went back to zero right away. pt. differential was still in the negative.

I know that’s accounted for when Baseball Prospectus does its pythagorean and playoff odds.

by 8volumesthick on Jan 29, 2009 6:12 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

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