Blazersedge: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: The 2009-2010 Card Chronicle Big East basketball preview

Analyzing "Wins Produced" -or- Is LMA really that bad?

You may or may not have seen that according to Wages of Wins' Wins Produced metric, LMA is a well below average player (and Przybilla is having a Hall of Fame year).  For those not familiar with the stat, .100 is an average player's production.  LMA is at .032 and Pryz is at .356 (Roy is .226 for comparison).

This intrigued me because, while no stat analysis can ever be completely comprehensive, Wins Produced (henceforth called just WP) is usually much better at separating real contributors from the Stat-Bo players.  To figure out what this meant, I first had to figure out how WP is calculated.

 

Calculating Wins Produced:

The actual process is very complicated.  Here's my attempt at simplifying the process.  You can skip to the analysis below if you don't care how it's calculated.

Preparation Step:  Figure out the correlation between offensive and defensive efficiency (i.e. points per possession) to the number of wins each team has.  Once you know that X points per possession is approximately worth Y wins, you can calculate the value of each individual stat that goes in to calculating points per possession.

Step 1:  Use the values from step 1 to asses production of each player.  The stats that go in to this calculation are 2 pointers made (2FGM), 3 pointers made (3FGM), free throws made (FTM), field goals missed (FGMS), free throws missed (FTMS), offensive rebounds (REBO), defensive rebounds (REBD), assists (AST), turnovers (TO), blocks (BLK), and steals (STL).  There is also an additional value that takes a players percentage of the team's total fouls and penalizes them for that percentage of the oppenents free throws made (FTMO).  The exact values change because of how they are calculated, but it is roughly equal to the following:

(2FGM + 2*3PFGM - FGMS + .55*FTM - .45*FTMS + REBO + REBD + .55*AST - TO + STL - .55*FTMO) / 3

The formula above gives total production.  This is divided by minutes played to get production per minute and then multiplied by 48 to get production per 48 minutes (i.e. per game).

This model has rebounds, turnovers, and steals equal to a 2 point field goal (i.e. 2 points) rather than the usual model that has them worth half the value of a 2 point field goal (i.e. 1 point).  3 pointers also end up being worth double what 2 pointers are worth.  Here is a chart (from Wages of Wins) with the exact values from 91/92 through 06/07.

 

Value of Player and Team Statistics

1991-92 to 2006-07

Player Variables

 

Marginal Value

Three Point Field Goals Made (3FGM)

 

0.06493

Two Point Field Goals Made (2FGM)

 

0.03207

Free Throws Made (FTM)

 

0.01770

Missed Field Goals (FGMS)

 

-0.03364

Missed Free Throws (FTMS)

 

-0.01516

Offensive Rebounds (REBO)

 

0.03364

Defensive Rebounds (REBD)

 

0.03344

Turnovers (TO)

 

-0.03364

Steals (STL)

 

0.03344

Opponent's Free Throws Made [FTM(opp.)]

 

-0.01759

Blocked Shots (BLK)

 

0.01755

Assists (AST)

 

0.02228

Team Variables

 

Marginal Value

Opponent's Three Point Field Goals Made [3FGM(opp.)]

 

-0.06454

Opponent's Two Point Field Goals Made [2FGM(opp.)]

 

-0.03188

Opponent's Turnovers [TO(opp.)]

 

0.03344

Team Turnovers (TOTM)

 

-0.03364

Team Rebounds (REBTM)

 

0.03344

 

Step 2:  Adjust each individual's score based on how much they benefited from their teamates blocks and assists.  This is done becuase blocks create rebounds (that may otherwise have been a made shot) and assists increase other player's chances of hitting shots.  I skip the exact process and just mention that the adjustment is fairly small (usually less than .01 WP/48 minutes, rarely more than .02).

Step 3:  Adjust for team defense.  WP does not calculate individual defense.  Instead, it holds every member of the team equally responsible for their team's defensive efficency (points allowed per possession).  Again, I'll skip the exact process and mention that this adjustment is also fairly small (usually less than .015 WP/48 minutes, rarely more than .03).

Step 4:  Adjust for position played.  This is one of the main things that sets WP apart from other metrics.  WP acknowledges that the big men get more rebounds and have less turnovers, not because of their skill, but because of the nature of their position.  There are three adjustments:  one for PF/C, one for SF, and one for SG/PG.  A player that splits time between areas will ge the average of their two positions (e.g. Outlaw would get the average of the PF and SF adjustments).  The adjustments are calculated by a brute force "add up the numbers and divide by everyone in the league at each psition and compare" process.  Here is the chart for the 06/07 season:

Value of Adj. P48 Across Positions

Position

Average Adj P48

Centers and Power Forwards

0.37593

Small Forwards

0.26309

Guards

0.23884

 

The values on this chart are just plain ol' subtracted from the production/48 number that we've been adjusting through the process.

 

Step 5:  At this point we have each player's value relative to "the average player" (i.e. an average player will be equal to 0.0 at this point), but the average player is worth more than 0 wins because an "average team" wins half of their games.  An average team has .5 wins per 48 minutes, so the average player is worth .1 (.5 divided by the 5 players on the court).  The actual average wins is actually about .099 / 48 minutes because of overtime games.

To finish the process, all we do is take the value that came out of step 4 and add .099 to it.

 

Analyzing Wins Produced:

There are several things that jump out from this model:

- WP loves rebounds

- WP loves making the most of your minutes on the floor

- WP has a defensive adjustment, but still doens't really nail down the hard-to-quantify value of an individual's defense.  It can even end up adjusting a player up/down when they really deserve the opposite because of their team's defense.

- WP doesn't care too much about total points as much as it cares about efficent points.

WP Strengths:

- WP is completely objective.  There is no tricky "how many points is an assist worth?" guess work.  It just analyzes data to calculate that X stat has been worth Y wins.

- WP isn't impressed by large inneficient point totals.  If you need to jack up 25 shots to make 10, WP is gonna give you the smack down.  You better make your free throws too.

WP Weaknesses:

- The objectivity is good, but the lack of subjectivity can also be bad.  More on this below.

- The defensive adjustment is very crude and probably only marginally effective.  It probably gets it right more often than it gets it wrong as good defensive teams are going to have more good defensive players and bad defensive teams are going to have more bad defensive players, but this also means that when Glenn Davis was warming the bench on the Spurs, he was picking up a nice fat WP team defense bonus.  The adjustment is fairly small, but it's still something to consider when WP is way off from conventional wisdom.

 

Wins Produced vs LMA (and Przybilla)

So what's up with LMA?  The following are all factors:

- The Blazers have a below average defensive efficency this year (109.5 vs 16.9 league average) so he losing a little there whether he deserves it or not, but not a lot and other players are able to overcome it just fine.  LMA is usually one of our better defenders so he's probably unfairly penalized here.

- He doesn't rebound a whole lot for his position.  He is 35th among PFs in rebounds per minute (and WP loves rebounds).

- Since he is mostly a jump shooter, his field goal percentage isn't that great for a PF either (21st among PFs in field goal %, 17th in free throw %), but his position adjustment still has it's curve set by guys that primarily shoot lay-ups and dunks.

I don't think it's time to hit the panic button yet.  He is still young, he's learning more post moves, and even just this year his shot has started falling a lot more.  His defense is also improving quite a bit each year.  He also gets a lot of minutes on some nights when the offense isn't going through him, which hurts "per minute" stats like WP... but he could make up for that with more rebounds though.

Considering his age and experience level, and the prgoress he's made so far, I'm not too worried.  It would be nice to have more and I expect more down the road from a #2 pick, but all things considered I'd call his performance pretty normalwhelming.

 

As for Przybilla, I like that this shows how superb he's been this year... but .356 seems a little crazy.  Dwayne Wade, for example, is at .350.  I think the efficiency loving WP gives him too much credit for his 75% shooting.  To a math equation, all 75% shooting is the same, but we all know that vast majority of his shots are wide open dishes from a driving guards or putbacks.  Yes, most post players can say that to some extent and that's what the whole position adjusment is about, but Pryz takes it to the extreme.

10 recs  |  Comment 47 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

my thoughts on LMA are well documented

http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/1/4/709227/how-lamarcus-aldridge-is-l

I don’t think he’s as bad as his win score shows (other metrics like him a lot more), but he’s definitely not the player some on BE think he is… he really needs to improve his TS% (staying in the paint would help) and defensive rebounding.

As for Przy, I think your thoughts are right on. He’s been tremendous, but you’d be hard pressed to say he’s been better than Roy this season.

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Jan 14, 2009 2:27 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

What PFs are ranked ahead of him in WPs?

Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.

by douglast on Jan 14, 2009 2:29 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

82games.com has the much better rating (Roland Ratings)

LMA is #24 there. If you believe Wages of Wins, you’d also have to agree with the premise that 7 current Blazers are better than LaMarcus. You’d also have to believe that Joel Przybilla is better than Brandon Roy. Goodluck trying to pass that one off.

by as11osu on Jan 14, 2009 2:32 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

thanks

just perused the roland ratings link briefly, and it definatley appears to pass the smell test. No metric is perfect of course, and mild anomolies should be expected, but any metric that says Joel Przybilla has produced more wins for us than Brandon just isn’t accurate.

Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.

by douglast on Jan 14, 2009 2:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I, too, brush off Wages of Wins as an unbalanced metric; nevertheless, Roland Ratings has its own ...

problems, with the use of Opponent PER — which I disregard as a defensive measurement, because net points allowed per 100 possesions and net eFG% allowed are way more applicable whenever analyzing someone’s performance on that end of the court — being my main qualm.

by AK1984 on Jan 14, 2009 2:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I am not stats expert, but I tend to think LMA gets overrated a bit by PER and strongly underrated by Win Score/Wins Produced

Right now PER has him as the 13th best PF in the league. 10 – 15 feels about right. It could just be his playing style, not getting many rebounds and taking a good percentage of shots from the elbow (neither resulting in threes nor high percentage dunks) that doesn’t help his efficiency ratings when he clearly is a solid player on the floor.

by Norsktroll on Jan 14, 2009 2:39 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

yeah

13 feels about right given the strength of the PF position in the league, his lowish rebounding numbers, and low FG% coupled with low FTAs.

However he is still young and can improve significantly – I certainly wouldn’t trade him straight up for many PFs who are currently “better” than him.

Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.

by douglast on Jan 14, 2009 2:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

damn statistics

2FGM + 2*3PFGM – FGMS + .55*FTM – .45*FTMS + REBO + REBD + .55*AST – TO + STL – .55*FTMO) / 3

…This model has rebounds, turnovers, and steals equal to a 2 point field goal (i.e. 2 points) rather than the usual model that has them worth half the value of a 2 point field goal (i.e. 1 point). 3 pointers also end up being worth double what 2 pointers are worth.

No it doesn’t!!!

I am sure I missed something, but the formula above has 3 pointers equal to 2 pointers. And turnovers and steals equal to half a 2 point field goal.

by Blazin' on Jan 14, 2009 3:36 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

oops

my bad. I did miss something. It’s too late!

by Blazin' on Jan 14, 2009 3:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's also the System used by the Coach.

The weakness of the metric is that it does not account for the playing system a coach uses for a given team. If, for example, the Blazers do not employ a system that uses their PF as a primary rebounder, but prefer to use him as mid range and perimeter scoring threat in order to keep the other PF away from the basket and take advantage of LMA’s length and quiickness – then the metrics are not very meaningful. And in the Blazers system, where you have both Pryz and Oden under the basket, and Outlaw, another 6’9" player getting meaningful minutes, forcing the other PF to adjust to LMA and pulling him away from the basket while emphasizing team rebounds, can be a better winning formula than posting both LMA and either Pryz or Oden under or immediately around the basket. One reason LMA has had a number of 20+ point games, after all, is because the other PF is not able to effectively defense him.

At the end of the day – the game is about “wins”, not about individual statistics. And the Blazers are winning. And LMA is a very big part of that. Mac has two 7 footers on the floor – other teams don’t. He does not need LMA to give him 12 rebounds a game. He needs LMA to take the other PF out of his normal position – so that “he” doesn’t get 12 rebounds a game. This, in turn, forces the other teams center to go 1 on 1 under the boards with Oden or Pryz, without the help that center would normally get from the PF in many cases.

The bias of this system is due to it’s reliance on “standard” metrics that pertain to perceptions of what a “standard” PF should do on a “conventional” team. When confronted with an “unconventional” team, which is true of teams that have a “twin towers” set, it cannot measure the metrics accurately.

by Eben Calder on Jan 14, 2009 6:38 AM PST reply actions   4 recs

interesting points

I started thinking about comparable players in comparable systems – outside shooting PFs

on the one hand, Okur’s WP stats are higher than LMAs by a fair amount. He must manage to defensive rebound better while adding enough 3pters to his outside game to offset the less efficient offense for his position.

On the other hand, Hedo/Rashard Lewis (no idea which one is being given the PF honors) have horrible WP stats.. very comparable with LMA. If they are getting split with SF/PF.. they are definitely taking statistical hits for leaving the inside to Howard…

by idoltime on Jan 14, 2009 7:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure here ...

Not sure any coach in any league would tailor his system to pull one of his tallest players away from the glass simply to pull his defender away too. “LaMarcus, if you’re WAY outside, then your man will be WAY outside too, and it will give our smaller guys a chance to get in there and board. Make it happen!” It seems to me that LMA hangs outside because that’s where he’s comfortable and that’s what he’s good at. Coach has said time and again LMA is better if he starts inside, but that doesn’t always happen.

But even so, that only happens on the offensive end, and yet LMA has a reputation of being an excellent offensive rebounder. It’s the defensive end where his rebounding needs improvement. He could be a much better rebounder in this league and in turn a much better PF if he would concentrate on hitting the glass more on the defensive end.

That’s a good point about about Hedo/Rashard. But they are both tweeners with much better outside games than LMA. So it begs the question, do we want our PF playing like tweeners, or would we rather having him mix it up inside? I’d prefer the latter.

"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez

by bfan on Jan 14, 2009 8:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

entirely agree

having an increasing post presence at C does free up Aldridge to pull his offensive game outside, but it also should free up LMA to go strong at defensive boards with Oden/Przy taking some body to keep from the boards. Of course, that is often curtailed by LMA getting switched to an outside defender.

I think players who get called tweeners, swings, and combo guards seem mostly better coming off of the bench because they tend to be low dimensional players (Ben Gordon, Leandro Barbosa, Nate Robinson, mostly Travis Outlaw). The ones who get it done are just called versatile.

Orlando playing two tweeners in the forward position probably only works because they are versatile and they have a huge post presence.

by idoltime on Jan 14, 2009 9:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Indictment of "Wins Produced" - not of LaMarcus

LaMarcus is a prime example of the flaws of the “Wins Produced” metric. The flaws relevant to LaMarcus are as follows:

1. WP is based on box score statistics, which do not measure individual defense. A player’s defensive value is not equal to the sum of his blocks and steals. The object of defense is to prevent the other team from scoring (or to get "stops"). Blocks and steals make up only a very small percentage of these stops. Most stops come from forcing the offense to shoot a difficult/contested shot.

Having watched just about every minute of every Blazer game this year, my eyes tell me that LaMarcus is a very good defender – well above average for his position. He is almost always exactly where he is supposed to be on the floor. He rarely gets beaten for easy baskets. He is one of the league’s best at getting back in transition. He excels in pick n roll defense. He frequently has to switch out onto the likes of Steve Nash and Chris Paul. Most of these possessions result in a contested long jumper. Sometimes he is able to deflect entry passes in these situations. LaMarcus does get scored on some in the post, particularly by stronger players. But I would argue that the guys that have scored well against him (Amare, David West) are effective scorers against most any defender.

2. A more nuanced look LaMarcus’ rebounding shows he’s not as weak of a rebounder as people think – or at least that his weak rebounding doesn’t hurt the team. First off, LaMarcus is actually a very good offensive rebounder. He gets 2.9 a game. That puts him at 13th in the league, as of today. LMA doesn’t get very many defensive rebounds. However, the number of defensive rebounds any individual player gets is largely irrelevant to his team’s success – so long as someone on his team is gobbling up those rebounds. The goal is not to get a high number of defensive rebounds – the goal is for your team to rebound every shot the other team takes. To put it another way, the key is not to let the other team get any offensive rebounds. As a team, the Blazers allow only 9.6 offensive rebounds a game, 3rd-best in the league. While I don’t have stats to back up this claim, I would argue that Lamarcus does at least an average job of blocking his man out and keeping him off of the offensive glass. While LMA is not getting a lot of defensive rebounds, Oden and Pryzbilla are (one reason why LMA’s rebound total is low), so LMA’s allegedly poor rebounding is not hurting the team.

3. The Blazers win with LaMarcus on the floor, moreso than with any other player (even Roy), and by a wide margin. Lamarcus’ cumulative +/- on the season is +187. Blake and Roy are both +114. The plus/minus statistic is not a complete measure of a player’s value, but with a sample size of over 1100 minutes, I think we can conclude that the team plays well when LMA is on the floor. We win when LMA plays with Roy, and either we win when LMA plays without Roy, or we lose when Roy plays without LMA (or both).

4. To truly measure how many wins LaMarcus has produced for us, we need to look at his value versus his replacement. If you take LaMarcus out of the lineup, you would have to replace his minutes with Frye (or Diogu) and Outlaw. Both Channing and Outlaw have negative cumulative +/- statistics on the season. We could debate whether this is an accurate reflection of their individual performances – I believe it is. Frye in particular has been a disaster this year. Trout has had a few excellent games, but I don’t think he comes close to giving us what LMA does at the PF spot, at either end of the floor.

Wins produced is an overreaching metric. It cannot measure what it purports to measure, because the data it uses is incomplete. Anyone who is interested in this topic should check out Basketball on Paper, by Dean Oliver. He effectively shoots down all of the statistical metrics that are based on traditional box scores.

by OKBLAZER on Jan 14, 2009 8:30 AM PST reply actions   3 recs

I don't understand the argument that someone's "eyes" tell them this or that ...

For every pair of eyes you can find that think LaMarcus is a good defender, I can probably find one or two pairs that think he’s an average or below average defender. I think you could find very few pairs of eyes that think he’s a very good defender. But rather than argue personal opinion, which doesn’t help anyone get anywhere, I decided to take a look at every box score from this season to see how LMA faired against his opponent. Based on your hypothesis that “The object of defense is to prevent the other team from scoring (or to get "stops”)" then if LMA is a very good defender he should frequently allow his opponent to score few points, or at least keep his opponent from being the other team’s main offensive weapon.

I don’t know how to post tables, but basically what I looked at is how many points LMA’s direct opponent scored, whether that player was a high scorer for his team or not, how many points LMA scored, and whether or not the game was a win or a loss. I understand it is difficult to say who LMA was guarding on every possession, but one can guess that if, for instance, Pau and LMA play similar minutes, that LMA is guarding Pau most of the time and vice versa. Clearly this is a rudimentary way of looking at LMA’s defensive performance and how it affected the win/loss column, but I noticed some interesting things. Let’s take a look:

-32.4% of the time, LMA’s opponent was the other team’s leading scorer (12/37 games)
-35.1% of the time, LMA’s opponent was the other team’s second leading scorer (13/37 games)
-This means that 67.5% of the time LMA’s opponent is either the other team’s first or second leading scorer. Obviously this is difficult to quantify b/c it doesn’t account for broken plays, scheme, etc., but I think one can deduce that opposing teams see LMA as a point of attack. The only way to REALLY look at this would be to compare this percentage to say, the number of times Brandon’s man or Blake’s man is the leading scorer, etc. I don’t have time to do that.
-Of our 14 losses, LMA’s opponent was the other team’s leading or second leading scorer 12 times. It’s bad for the Blazers when LMA can’t stop his man.
-In our 23 wins, LMA has outplayed (i.e. scored more points) his opponent or played his opponent even 17 times. In our 14 losses, LMA has been outplayed by his opponent 11 times. Again, it is generally good for the Blazers when LMA outplays his opponent, and generally bad for the Blazers when LMA is outplayed.
-Unfortunately, LMA has outplayed his opponent only 20 of 37 games, or roughly 54% of the time. If LMA could improve this ratio, the Blazers would probably win more games.
-Also unfortunately, LMA has his best games against poor opposing PFs. Of the 20 opponents that LMA has outplayed or played even, I would consider 12 of them to be sub-standard PFs. The list includes:
(Kevin Love/Craig Smith combo x2), Rashard Lewis*, Beasley x2, Gooden, (Jason Thompson/Mikki Moore combo x2), Al Harrington, Kenyon Martin x2, (Amir Johnson/McDyess combo), (Anthony Randolph/Turiaf combo),Ty Thomas. (* I consider Rashard to be a very good player, but probably a substandard PF. When LMA plays tweeners like this, I expect him to dominate, and that doesn’t happen nearly enough. Rashard outplayed LMA in their other contest this season.)
-Of the 8 games where LMA outplayed whom I consider to be quality opponents, only 3 times did LMA soundly win the battle. Those opponents were Scola, Wallace, and West. In the other 5 LMA barely outscored his counterpart.
-In general, LMA seems to struggle against the top PFs in the league. LMA has played 19 games against whom I would consider top tier PFs: Pau x2, Duncan, Amare x3, Bosh x2, Boozer, Scola, West x3, Jamison, Dirk, ZBo, Millsap, and KG x2. Of those 19 games, LMA has been severely outplayed 8 times (Pau, Amare, Jamison, ZBo, Amare, Dirk, Bosh, and West—3-5 W/L), narrowly outplayed 5 times (Duncan, Boozer, West, Amare, and KG—1-4 W/L), outplayed his opponent narrowly 4 times (Bosh, Millsap, KG, and Pau—2-2 W/L), and outplayed his opponent severely 2 times (Scola and West—2-0 W/L).

In conclusion, my general observations based on this rudimentary data are:

1. Opposing teams like to attack LMA’s defense. They are successful nearly 70% of the time (meaning LMA’s direct opponent is oftentimes the opposing team’s leading or second leading scorer).
2. If LMA could lower this number (e.g. play better defense), the Blazers would win more games.
3. LMA is firmly entrenched in the second tier of PFs in this league. In general, his best games come against rookies, hacks, and has-beens. In general, his worst games come against the leagues top PFs. Even when he plays the best PFs evenly, he typically narrowly loses the battle. The Blazers lose when this happens.
4. In the big picture, I can see why LMA has a low win score.

"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez

by bfan on Jan 14, 2009 10:45 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm not too worried about a 3rd year player who has trouble keeping up with all the best PFs in the league

I mean, you put the list together yourself: Pau, Duncan, Amare, Bosh, Boozer, Scola, West, Jamison, Dirk, ZBo, Millsap, and KG.

Let’s see, only 3 guys on that list haven’t been all-stars and of those guys 1 (Zach) puts up all-star type numbers, 1 guy seems to be on his way to being an all star (Milsap) and Scola in his 2nd year is nothing to sneeze at. There is incredible talent in the league at the PF position, probably the 2nd most talent behind SG. I don’t think it’s unreasonable that Aldridge gets scored on when he has to go up against guys like Amare, Bosh, Duncan, KG etc, etc.

"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"

by Magnum on Jan 14, 2009 10:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I'm not worried either.

I just think many people put LMA on a pedestal that he hasn’t earned yet. He’ll get better, and within a couple years should be in that top tier himself. He’s shown flashes this year, especially against similar perimeter-oriented PFs like Bosh, Garnett, and Rasheed. He has a long way to go, though.

"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez

by bfan on Jan 14, 2009 11:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks.

Unfortunately it might get lost amongst this Nate Robinson stuff. Rec the thread if you like it. I actually think this is the most interesting conversation we’ve had here in the BEdge fanposts in quite some time. Hence the effort on my post.

"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez

by bfan on Jan 14, 2009 11:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Problems with this analysis

The reason I base my conclusions on LMA’s defense on what I can see instead of what I can read out of the boxscore is that a thin statistical analysis like this tells us very little. If you’re going to define “ouplaying” someone as “outscoring” them, that makes for a simple, but basically useless comparison.

Telling me LaMarcus’ man was his team’s leading scorer 32% of the time is meaningless without further context. To draw any meaningful conclusions, I also need to know the following:
1. What is that player’s scoring average? Guys like Stoudemire, West, Dirk, Duncan, Jamison Bosh and ZBo are almost always among the top two scorers on their teams. (Don’t power forwards in general score more than point guards, small forwards and centers?)
2. How many possessions did those guys use to score those points? You can’t hold opposing teams scoreless. The key is to make their scoring inefficient.
3. How many of those points were actually scored while LaMarcus was guarding the guy (how many were scored while LMA was on the bench, or Oden was guarding him, or LMA was switched onto a guard, etc…)?
4. How many of those points were set up by a breakdown by our perimeter defenders?

This analysis also ignores team defense, an area in which I contend that LMA excels (we can disagree here, there aren’t really any stats to measure an individual’s “team” defense skills).

Regarding your conclusions:
1. Agree that many NBA teams, particularly those with talented power forwards, like to try to use their power forwards to attack. Disagree to the extent you’re suggesting that they view LMA as a weak defender.
2. Agree that LMA could be a better defender, and that better defense would help us win more games. But this is a universal truth for all players. Of the Blazers whose defense needs improvement, I would rank everyone but Pryzbilla ahead of LMA.
3. Agree that LMA is a 2nd-tier power forward. Bosh, Amare, Pau, Dirk, West, KG, Duncan, and arguably a couple others are better than LMA.
4. My original post is an explanation of why LMA’s “win score” is low compared to his actual value as a player. Are you arguing that his win score is an accurate representation of his value? Because win score ranks guys like Scola, Carl Landry and Varejao ahead of LMA by a wide margin.

by OKBLAZER on Jan 14, 2009 12:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

All good points.

Clearly my thoughts were based on rudimentary data, which I stated.

I would be interested to take a look at other above average defensive PFs to see if their man is a top-2 scorer nearly 70% of the time. My guess is that is not the case. But I don’t really have the time to go look.

Long story short is that no statistic is complete in the NBA, but rather they are useful for examining different aspects of the game, and comparing players to each other rather than to a standard.

"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez

by bfan on Jan 14, 2009 2:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Agree...

We just need somebody to go through game film of every one of LaMarcus’ defensive possessions from the whole season and give us a summary of the result of every possession… then give us the same analysis for all starting power forwards in the league, so we can determine if LMA is above average or not.

by OKBLAZER on Jan 14, 2009 2:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think WP is a great tool for highlighting Aldridge's weak areas

He is certainly not a bad player he just has a skill set that WP doesn’t like. It’s clear that as a PF he need to develop a strong(er) post game (which will up his FG% and his FT attempts) and get tougher on the defensive glass. He’s already showing us his improvement in those areas. He’ll probably never be an elite rebounder or shoot over 50% for a season, but that’s not what we need from him. We need rebounding improvement and a strong post game to balance out both his jumpshooting and Oden’s post game.

"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"

by Magnum on Jan 14, 2009 11:03 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

WP is supposed to tell us how good players are...

But it fails. It doesn’t just highlight LMA’s weaknesses. It magnifies them to the point that it tells us he’s way below average as a player. If that were true, why are we so good when he plays (+187 cumulative +/-) and so mediocre when Trout (-6) and Frye (-22) play?

WP tells us that Leon Powe, A. Varejao, Carl Landry, Louis Scola, Joakim Noah, Drew Gooden, Luc Mbah a Moute, Josh Boone, Reggie Evans, and lots of other mediocre players are better than LaMarcus. I think most intelligent observors of basketball would disagree. I’m not arguing that LMA doesn’t have flaws. I’m arguing that he’s a lot better than WP gives him credit for…. and that WP is so flawed that it’s completely useless.

by OKBLAZER on Jan 14, 2009 12:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

put another way, would Portland even THINK about trading him straight up for any of the guys you listed? Heck no. If offerred the straight up trade, would every other team on that list have the trade agreement faxed the league within 0.2 seconds? Heck yes.

That’s all I need to know about this ratings sytem.

Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.

by douglast on Jan 14, 2009 12:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

at least a couple of those guys (Varejao and Scola, especially Varejao)

are definitely better than LMA right now— which is not to say we should trade LMA for them. There are not as gifted athletically or as smooth shooting the ball (and they don’t have nearly the upside) but they are better defenders and are much more efficient shooting the basketball. WP has a lot of problems, and I certainly don’t think all the guys on that list are better than LMA, but let’s give credit where it is due— Varejao is a huge part of Cleveland’s success.

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Jan 14, 2009 1:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Varejao is definitely better than LMA??

We are talking about the big Brazilian dude with the funny hair, right? Can’t score outside of 5 feet from the basket, career average of 6 points a game? Held out for $10 million-a-year contract, got laughed at, and eventually signed for the mid-level exception? He’s “definitely” better than LaMarcus Aldridge?

You swap LMA for Varejao… the Cavs are title favorites and we’re headed to the lottery.

by OKBLAZER on Jan 14, 2009 1:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

you need to watch a Cavs game my friend

Varejao is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, reasons why the Cavs have the best D in the NBA. He is not nearly as skilled offensively as LMA, but he also doesn’t take stupid 20 foot jump shots, plus he can rebound. Your statement “You swap LMA for Varejao… the Cavs are title favorites and we’re headed to the lottery” is an egregious example of not paying attention to defense as well as paying too much attention to style over substance, something I discussed here:

http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/1/4/709227/how-lamarcus-aldridge-is-l

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Jan 14, 2009 2:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My take on Winscore is essentially

that it’s extremely useful for evaluating guys with similar roles on a team, even if they play different styles. The style that a guy plays will of course have a direct effect on his WP since some styles are just inherently more efficient than others (say Millsap/Duncan compared to LA/Rashard). I feel like this makes it a little less universal, but prevents the situation where you’d get that Joel would obviously be much worse is he was asked to carry a scoring load like Lamarcus is. However, given Joel’s ridiculous WP/48, if you were to swap him with any other Defensive Ace/Rebounding big, that team would be better, say if the Cavs swapped Varejao for Joel, even though we might think of Lamarcus as a “better” player.

On that note, the scoring PFs would be the guys I see that Lamarcus should be compared to, guys like Bosh, Boozer, Pau, Duncan, Amare, West, and even Millsap, Josh Smith or KG.

Here’s how those guys shake out midseason this year:
Bosh: .230
Boozer: .360
Millsap: .213
Pau: .271
Duncan: .261
Amare: .173
West: .105 (last year)
KG: .294
Dirk: .231 (last year)
Josh Smith: .111 (last year)
Rashard Lewis: .071

Aldridge: .032

Any way you look at it, it’s ugly from a wages of wins point of view. I know people will look at that and say that we’d expect him to be worse than those guys, but he’s also below guys like Odom (.085), Villanueva (.080), Gooden (.094) and Brand (.075 in an awful year for him). All of those guys are asked to do similar things to Lamarcus, which is be a scoring option, if not necessarily the primary one all the time, at the PF spot, and he gets demolished by all of them.

Sure, you could look at that and say that he’s still top 13 or so in the league, but at the same time, that’s about every single PF in the league that plays a similar scoring role to him that’s above him, while also leaving out some of the tweener centers like Jefferson and Okur (both comfortably ahead of him also).

Lamarcus does some good stuff on the floor, but those are some seriously ugly numbers if I’ve ever seen them.

by Royster on Jan 14, 2009 2:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

good thoughts

and its mostly due to LMA taking too many jumpers (roughly 67% of his offense according to 82games.com). LMA is much more efficient when he gets into the paint, and improving his TS% would drastically help his win score. What sets Rashard (also a jump shooter) apart from LMA is that he’s a much better shooter, plus the 3 pt shot is much more efficient than the 20 footer for obvious reasons.

Rebounding is also an issue for LaMarcus, but it really comes down to TS%. Compared to other PFs who are asked to score the ball, he’s a very inefficient player.

Despite all this, our offense is still #3 in the league (partly because we get a lot of offensive boards, an area where LMA helps us). If we could convince LMA to spend more time in the paint and less shooting 20 footers, we’d be the #1 offense.

Still though, its defense that is the bigger concern, not just for LMA but for the entire team.

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Jan 14, 2009 3:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree, and definitely think

that Win score would benefit by weighting offensive rebounds a little more than it currently does over defensive rebounds. My issue is with people saying that his score is low because that’s what Nate is telling him to do. No one is forcing him to stay out there and jack up jumpers. If LMA were to start rolling towards the basket or putting the ball on the floor and getting into the paint after getting the ball on the “pop”, he would be comfortably in that group. He might not ever sniff the .25+ WP48 level, but getting between .1 and .2 would be huge for us.

You’re right, though, if only we could stop someone.

by Royster on Jan 14, 2009 3:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for reviewing how "Wins Produced" is calculated

Here is my take on why WP gets Pryzbilla wrong:

Ultimately, the value placed on each stat is determined by some type of regression analysis with box score statistics as the independent variables and offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency as the dependent variables (I’m not sure exactly how it is done because it’s only described in full in the book). The calculations moving from player efficiency to wins produced is primarily for scaling purposes. Regression analysis is going to generate an estimate of how efficient a team is (or a player is), given its box score statistics. In other words, by pluging in a set of box score statistics, it’s going to predict that players offense efficiency.

Berri clearly uses linear regressions. The formula described above is a linear prediction of wins produced, based on box score numbers. There are two consequences of this:

1) The WP formula does not take into account diminishing returns to a box score statistics (or any other kind of non-linearity). A line is straight, diminish returns implies a curve. Of course, there could be increasing returns as well. Perhaps a player than gets 12 assists per game rather than 10 assists is “more better” than a player that gets 4 assists per game rather than 2 assists per game. We don’t know and linear regression assumes away that possibility.

2) The WP formula does not take into account interactions between box score statistics. Why? The formula doesn’t know if a player is a really great rebounder combined with few field goals made, it just gives a lot of credit for rebounds, regardless of the other statistical categories. It’s possible, however, that having a lot of assists and, at the same time, a lot of field goals made is more beneficial than each of those things individually.

What this suggests is that the more unusual a players statistical profile, the less effective WP will be at quantifying their effect on a basketball game.

WP should work well for players with fairly average box score profiles. It should give us a decent look at for example, how much better Brandon Roy was in his first season compared to this season. He has general profiles of fg, threes, rebounds, etc, but he’s gotten more efficient.

By contrast, with a player like Pryzbilla, the WP formula “sees” an insane FG% and rebound rate, and few turnovers and give him a huge credit for that, because usually, players that shoot a high FG% are better for a team than one that shoots a low percentage… and more rebounds are better than fewer rebounds. But, we cannot take Pryzbilla’s prediction seriously because he is extreme in a few statistical categories AND he has an odd/unusual statistical profile. He is really strong is some categories, but quite weak in others.

by PoliSam on Jan 14, 2009 11:19 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Wages of Wins illustrates a problem with composite statistics.

Any metric that isn’t a straight-line computation of an absolute value introduces some amount of error into the system that is reflected into the final answer. Every time a mathematical operation is performed on a value that has error introduced it compounds the error, and when you get to the end of a long computation the error might be compounded enough to make the resulting answer insignificant.

Now I’m not saying these statistics are wrong (assuming the error is fairly uniform the relative values to each other should be correct, even if the actual values are not) but that it should be taken with a grain of salt. When you open the link to see how this metric is calculated, each and every coefficient, adjusted average and adjusted value introduces a source of error into the calculation. I’m just saying that until I see a statistical proof from the authors of this metric I’ll remain skeptical about it. Especially since the attempt to quantify a contribution to a “win” by definition must first quantify what a “win” is, and mathematically that seems like a numeric nightmare.

Hmm. maybe i should cook up a fanpost that is an attempt at error analysis of composite stats like this.

by postup on Jan 14, 2009 11:32 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Hey thanks

This is an interesting discussion. I occasionally go to the APBR site to check out the Wages of Wins comments, but frankly, it makes my eyes glaze over in about two minutes. These comments are a lot easier to digest for those of us who are interested in stats, but not passionate about ’em.

by Corvid on Jan 14, 2009 12:04 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

In LaMarcus related news...

I just heard him interviewed on Rome. Among the topics discussed:

Garnett and the Celts: LA said Garnett got into his head in the first game. The second game was intense also, culminating in the elbow/head slap. He finally had enough and not only was standing up for himself, but giving his teammates an example.

The good guy image: LA says he’s actually a good guy. His mom raised him that way.

On the PTB PR for LA as an allstar: He appreciates what they are doing.

On his production this year: LA said he thought it might be easier with Oden in the mix, that it would take away the double teams from him. He was surprised by increased defensive pressure which took him out of his game for a while.

On Oden: People expected too much, too soon after he had missed a year. He is coming along nicely.

Rome closed with lots of praise for his honest answers and being a class guy in general.

There is probably a link somewhere to some sort of streaming audio, but there’s the 30 second condensed version.

The cowards never started
The weak died along the way
Only the strong survived
They were the Trailblazers

by lukeyhere on Jan 14, 2009 12:09 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Didn't we talk about this like a week ago?

WinScore might underrate LMA, but PER overrates him. His rebounding really is that bad, and offensive system doesn’t have anything to do with it since his rebounding is better on the offensive end than on the defensive end.

Folks who think he plays good defense isn’t paying enough attention or are evaluating the wrong thing – how well he does on switches against smalls on the perimeter isn’t a big factor in determining the quality of your big man defensive play.

And his success there is overrated – LMA is good at keeping guys out of the lane, but he does so by sagging off enough that they can get clean looks at the basket — not sure how to look it up but I bet shooting over LMA has been successful for opponents quite a lot. Our opponents seem to gameplan to get a lot of jumpers over LMA on switches so I don’t think I’m the only one who thinks his perimeter defense is being overrated by our coaches and fans.

Offensively, he’s just not that efficient. If you look at the nba hotspots widget, his numbers aren’t very good from the perimeter, but a very high percentage of his offense comes from there. He doesn’t get to the line, and he doesn’t shoot three pointers, so he’s going to look bad on statistical models that are heavily focused on efficiency, which Wages of Wins is, but PER and Roland and NBA Eff (ironically) isn’t.

by howlingfantods on Jan 14, 2009 12:44 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Glad you mentioned the hotspots.

I was thinking about adding those to my post above, but I couldn’t remember who did them.

"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez

by bfan on Jan 14, 2009 1:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's an interesting take re: LMA's defense

Disagree regarding the importance of switching onto smalls… for many NBA teams, the pick n roll is their primary offense. Defending it well is a key aspect of team defense.

Frequently when a big comes out to help, the guard blows by him or smacks into him for a near-automatic foul call (happens to Oden, and a lot of other bigs around the league). LMA typically cuts off penetration, and the guard ends up taking a long 2-pointer. I think forcing long 2-pointers is generally a winning defensive strategy, particularly with a long 6’11" guy like LMA contesting. Obviously some of those shots go in, but look at that NBA hotspots widget for guys like Chris Paul and Dwyane Wade.
Those are the shots you want them taking.

Agree that he needs to improve his efficiency on offense. He’s shooting a career low FG% this year, but it has come up some in the last month or so. Hopefully he’s reverting to the mean after that nasty early-season slump. I do think there’s some validity to the argument that he helps Oden by playing a little further from the basket. But he’d be a far more efficient scorer if he could get to the free throw line more. He needs to learn to attack the basket off the dribble if he wants to become an all star caliber player.

by OKBLAZER on Jan 14, 2009 1:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

LMA's D on smalls is good, and it helps us at times

Unfortunately, he can’t defend good post scorers 1v1. Given the choice, I’d rather have a PF who defends the post well than a PF who defends the perimeter better than other big men.

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Jan 14, 2009 3:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Tim Duncan is pretty damn bad on the wing after switches.

Doesn’t really matter. Your big not getting beat on a dribble drive on a wing after a switch is a luxury, and a minor one. Playing good post man defense and being effective on help in the interior is how you gauge good defensive play from your bigs, and LMA is below average on both of these much more important responsibilities. Yeah, it’s kind of rad when KG stops a point guard, but the reason he’s DPOY is his ability to torture opposing PFs trying to post him or face him and his amazing help defense.

The Blazers are 26th of 30 teams on defensive rating so far this season. LMA is a big part of that. I know folks like to blame everything on like Sergio and Travis and Frye, but they just don’t play enough minutes for that to be a reasonable position.

by howlingfantods on Jan 14, 2009 4:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Great post

lots of smart people contributing in the comments too.
thanks

by Falcao on Jan 14, 2009 1:26 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

this is awesome

I need to really analyze it, but I’m very interested in variants on James’ Win Shares, which is roughly what this appears to be. I can’t tell if this uses the same principle, however: take the team’s number of wins, and allocate them through performance metrics such as above, zero-sum. In other words, out of 23 wins, it might work out that Roy was worth 3.5, Blake 1.2, Oden .9, etc. But the total number of shares for all players who’ve had minutes in Blazer games, would always equal 23 (or whatever the game total is).

I think nerd Bball stats might be where I can find a niche…great stuff!

by torridjoe on Jan 14, 2009 1:48 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

UGGH

@obsession with numbers and decimal points and stuff. basketball was a lot cooler when you didn’t need a TI-83 and a slide ruler to figure out who was good.

Oderint dum metuant

by WhiteRabbit on Jan 14, 2009 11:15 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

I know you're trying to make a joke of it

but its true. That’s one of the strong suits of the Blazers front office now. From KP on down, they’re known for using their numbers. Having a strong ability to analyze the math and logistical portion of the stats is important when judging players these days. Like batting average, runs batted in and saves in baseball, it has become increasingly important knowing which numbers matter and which numbers don’t.

by as11osu on Jan 15, 2009 12:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

if i remember my Moneyball

batting average, rbi’s and the like aren’t as important to new age baseball GMs. but my point is if you can find a stat that supports whatever case you’re trying to make, then what’s the point?

Oderint dum metuant

by WhiteRabbit on Jan 15, 2009 11:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

A site by Blazer fans, for Blazer fans
Start posting about the Trail Blazers »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Ep_109_starvinmarvin_small
NOV 9 JD - WHAT CAME FIRST???
Small
New B-Roy is the Old Kobe
The_dude_small
Stats 101: Whats The Deal? Let Me Explain...
Broyhope_small
First Rose Garden Game Redux...
Troll_stone_cropped_small
Nate in the land of the giants

Recent FanPosts

Small
Brandon (old or new) is NOT Kobe (old or new) w/Poll
1-5-2009_007_small
NBA League Pass Blazer feeds???
Small
Pritchard must prune this roster
Small
Guess who has the highest PER for the Blazers? Hint, it isn't who you think.
Small
A Paradigm Shift? Is the new 3-guard system for the Blazers the answer?
Kpavatar2_small
Blazers/Wolves Hold The Hot dog - Post Game Review
Small
Help! Can someone explain Blake/Miller/Roy?
100_0017_small
Junk 11/8
Small
Nate comfortable with Miller calling Blazers' plays??

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

marty's buzzer beating dunk
Brandon Roy Wallpaper
Chad Ford (Insider): Travis Outlaw "Probably Won't Be Re-Signed"
Manu catches a bat during game. live coverage

ps
check out blair at the begining of video he freaks like a girl
Start Miller

Recent FanShots

Rudy openly expresses disgruntlement
Charlie Rosen critiques the Blazers
McMillan said the key to having success on the road comes down to one...
NBA Top 10 From Last Night
I hope to see a LOT more of this during the season...nothing better than seeing Oden get block of the night.
Jaynes Weighs in on Blake / Miller / Roy
Viva la 3-Guard! T-Wolves Recap, at Loaded Orygun
Club Level tickets for sale tonight
Prince has a ruptured disc
Anyone converting stream?

+ New FanShot All FanShots >


Editors

Kitten_small Dave

Ben_small Ben.

Moderators

Pict1126_small -ken

Polar_bear_small jorga

Terryporter_small prezofdeath

Small usmcr3049

Jesus_icon_i_small T Darkstar

Wallpaper_small geoffm