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Oden drops below the radar

Between Darius, Roy's injury, Aldridge's stepped up play, Bayless getting some run there's been a lot to talk about.

One thing we haven't been talking about much is Greg Oden. This is a good thing.

The unrealistic expectations bubble has burst. The early injury and the foul trouble and the blocked shots, and the ubiquitous traveling calls have pretty much demolished all hopes for an instant breakout and immediately elevating the Blazers toward a deep playoff run. And that's a good thing too.

Whether we wanted to believe it or not, the expectations were always unrealistic. So was the deep playoff run even if Oden had delivered as feverishly dreamed.

So what are we left with?

A physically dominant rookie who no longer seems afraid of his knee. A guy who is starting to show signs of the elevation we hoped for. A big man, who finally, can stay with Aldridge running up and down the court as he showed against Golden State. The lumbering is gone. A rookie who's footwork is showing signs of coming along. A big man who is learning to keep his arms straight up on defense and not to bring the ball too low on offense. A player who can dribble while backing down and who can get an assist passing out off a double team. A player who we're no longer waiting on for the latest injury news. A man who changes shots just by being in the lane.

It's all there. It's still inconsistent, we see it in flashes, but it's all there.

And the best thing is, it kind of snuck up on us while we weren't looking. He's going to be just fine.

20 recs  |  Comment 67 comments

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that is exactly right on. We also have a week spot on our schedule that should really help Greg “appear” as though he is developing faster than he may be.

by winnerwinner on Jan 11, 2009 6:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

this is a good thing

Greg will be a lot quicker and better this time next year and is coming along fine

by southern oregon on Jan 11, 2009 6:50 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I can't decide...

is this fanpost productive or counter-productive for Oden’s cause? :P

by Gargen on Jan 11, 2009 6:56 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

good one

rec and a chuckle from me.

by BlazersOrBust on Jan 12, 2009 1:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

rec'd not for putting down the fanpost

but for mocking the myriad of underwhelmed fan boys/beat writers.

Activate Shavlik Randolph

by appel82 on Jan 12, 2009 11:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

When you are expected to be a savior, it's hard to get props for good work.

It’s only when the expectations drop away that you can look at the effort and the results and see what has been there all along.

by raoulduke on Jan 11, 2009 7:01 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

This is a great piece

I said the same thing to my wife last night about Oden. I think he is doing fine and will just get better probably for the next 5 years. That’s a nice thought :)

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Jan 11, 2009 9:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I told my wife this too

And she said, “what POSSIBLY could have given you the idea I gave the slightest rat’s bum about greg oden?? Go clean up the fallen branches in the yard that have been sitting there since the storm.”

I summoned up all of my prodigious manhood, and put her in her proper place: “Yes, ma’am,” I said. Took her down a peg, all right!

(kudos on a cool wife. Mine is cool, but not in this area.)

by torridjoe on Jan 12, 2009 9:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

My wife

rocks my world. She is a newly annointed Blazers fan and demanded that we get Blazers cable as we can’t go to games yet with my infant son. I gurdgingly summoned up my manhood to say “THat’s a freaking GREAT IDEA!!”

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Jan 12, 2009 12:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Another thing we are already getting is fouls piling up on opposing post players

Have you noticed that nobody on the Blazers draws more fouls than Oden? He doesn’t always get to the line on them, since many of them are either before the shot, just trying to keep him off the post or off the boards.

People underestimate the effect of drawing fouls. It gets us into the penalty. It changes opposing team rotations. It can even force defensive changes which lead to mismatches for other players.

Oden must have drawn 3-4 fouls last night.

If we can just get our other players to start learning how to feed him when he flashes WIDE open in the paint, we can get at least 2-3 baskets from him each game.

I have gone from wincing when he got the ball in the post, to yelling at the tv to feed him the ball when we are jacking up jumpers. He really has shown some nice progress.

Bring back the Uncle Cliffy!

by hawkblogger on Jan 11, 2009 7:08 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

And even the jumpers are getting better looks

when the defense is collapsing on Oden.

by raoulduke on Jan 11, 2009 7:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

how would you feel

If you were Greg and playing for the OK[insert your word] team?

by southern oregon on Jan 11, 2009 7:14 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I've been thinking about that since like ever

And man… if you think he was already emo at the beginning of the year playing for the Blazers…

by Eventine on Jan 11, 2009 7:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And he no longer looks like an Amish.

Sergio + Rudy = 16
Sergio + Bayless = 16
Batum 8+8=16

by amlmart1 on Jan 11, 2009 7:50 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

My Man

Your art is really really good

by southern oregon on Jan 11, 2009 7:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I love it when you expand my screensaver content.

"Aneurysm".

When Outlaw wins a game on a last-second shot, it’s called an "annthefaneurysm". QualityPie

by annthefan on Jan 11, 2009 9:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, ive taken to saving them all too

They LIED!!!

http://www.nba.com/news/miles_10_080919.html

by maid tu rek on Jan 12, 2009 2:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

to quote my hero, Dick Vitale

that’s awesome, baby!

If you think I'm insulting you, I'm insulted that you'd even think that I would think of insulting you.

by prezofdeath on Jan 11, 2009 9:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

yeaaaaahhhhh ba-beeee another diaper dandy coming into his own

"..[Travis Outlaw] could jump, grab a rafter, eat a sandwich, and then dunk.."
tmundal 12/30/07

by LetsBlaze on Jan 11, 2009 9:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oden's biggest downfall to date

Are his commercials on Comcast Sports Net for the car dealership where his voice gets really high

by RecordTOs on Jan 11, 2009 7:51 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Those crack me up;-)

"Rudy’s flashy passes had the place whispering to each other like we were in junior high" ~BlazermaniacAndy

by courtsideerrandboy on Jan 11, 2009 9:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

great post

you’re totally right. the funny thing is, now that he is below the radar and still improving and becoming more confident and consistent each game, those expectations will return. how will he handle them the 2nd time around?

myspace.com/marktwainindians

by mark twain on Jan 11, 2009 7:58 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Getting back physically

Anyone see the elevation he got on that dunk in the GS game, his head was very near the rim and he was flat-footed!

He’ll be just fine, offensively he’s already what I expected, probably more actually. Oden has also been a MONSTER on the boards for us. All he needs to do now is learn. Learn to stay straight up, learn the ins and outs of shot blocking in the pros and most importantly LEARN his defensive rotations to the point where they’re instinct.

by Devenex on Jan 11, 2009 8:24 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Yep

If he was any other rookie center, we’d be very happy with what he’s shown us. The early indications are that he may not be an all time great (although he certainly still has a shot to reach that level), but at a minimum he’s going to be a very solid player in this league.

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Jan 11, 2009 9:05 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

If you use Dwight Howard

as your measuring stick, as I like to, Oden comes out smelling like roses…apropos, I guess. Comparisons to the “all-time greats” aren’t really legit, cuz none of those guys — Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, to name a few recent ones — were coming out after their injury-plagued freshman year of college. Howard’s a more accurate comparison, and Greg’s showing more touch around the hoop, better footwork, much better passing ability, and less of a proclivity to turn the ball over than did Howard during his rookie campaign. I just think it’s too early even for early indications.

by BlazersOrBust on Jan 12, 2009 1:22 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

+ 1

          You sir, have it. Been saying this for a couple
years, PATIENCE ! We aren’t even to the halfway point
and he missed 8-9 games. By the end of the season,
he should be averaging a ddouble-double !
          The sig says it all !

         KGW RULES !!!

It's GO time !

by walkoff41 on Jan 12, 2009 2:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

the problem is that Howard as a rook was 2 years younger than Greg

Its not fair to compare their rookie seasons for that reason (ie you wouldn’t compare rookie Martell- age 18- to rookie Brandon- age 22).

Its also not fair to compare Howard’s 3rd year (age 20) to Greg’s current season because Greg didn’t have the 2 years of playing and adjusting to NBA ball.

Thus, I like to split the difference and compare Greg’s current year to Dwight’s 2nd year. Howard had an outstanding PER of 19.37 in his 2nd year (he was 17+ his rookie year) and Greg is at 15.74. In other words, Dwight was significantly better at age 19 than Greg is at age 20. I realize Greg is coming off injury, and I don’t know the best way to do a “microfracture” adjustment. The way I see it, though, Greg is significantly behind schedule if he wants to become a Howard like player. Not saying it can’t happen, just that the early indications are that he’ll fall a little short.

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Jan 12, 2009 2:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

that's fair

I’d be surprised if Greg’s PER weren’t up around 17 by the end of this season, to open on a tangental note (my English teachers just felt a great disturbance in the Force…a million decent introductions crying out as one and were suddenly silenced)…you can’t do a microfracture adjustment OR a “I’ve got Joel coming in off the bench, so there’s no reason to throw Greg into the fire” adjustment by Nate. I dunno if the Magic were a playoff-contending team during Howard’s 1st-2nd years or if they had a competent backup, both of which are situational factors that would have affected how much burn and leash Howard got.

Add in the ridiculous amount of hype Oden got coming out of college and how much pressure he got (or perceived, anyway) from the fans and the league (not like Howard got scheduled to open against that murderers’ row of big men) and he was under a fair amount of mental duress between that and not fully trusting his knee. Given the confluence of all those factors, I feel like it significantly widens the acceptable standard deviation for any PER differences on the “elite center” track established by Howard and that Greg is significantly within it. If that makes sense.

by BlazersOrBust on Jan 12, 2009 3:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed

And Howard was forced into playing day one and got a full year of experience. It wasn’t like Battie was eating his minutes like Joel is Odens

Blazer fans tell me, where were you,
When our Brandon Roy dropped 52?

by GreatOden'sRaven on Jan 13, 2009 11:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't underestimate the impact of Oden playing on a playoff-level team

Shaq, Bynum, Duncan, Howard, etc. all played for crap teams their first year. Or at least teams where they were a focal point of the offense. Teams were built around those guys. Oden is being asked to fit into a team that has basically been growing together for three years.

What would Oden’s numbers look like if he got 10 more mins and 5 more shots/game? I think, conservatively, that’s what he would be getting if he was playing for Oklahoma or some other crap team.

Bring back the Uncle Cliffy!

by hawkblogger on Jan 12, 2009 1:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

that sounds like the logic Chuck Swirsky used...

… to validate his vote for Bargnani over Roy.

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Jan 12, 2009 2:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not good logic

for giving out awards for performance, but it is reasonable logic for trying to guess future performance based on current results.

I know you can put admiration in bags, because admiration is real, and tominhawaii says that everything that is real is measurable.

by jscot on Jan 12, 2009 11:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's what I was gonna say

The logic isn’t bad on its own, it’s just bad when used to rationalize a horrible homer vote for Bargnani over Roy, when Roy had a terrific rookie season.

It is safe to assume that Oden would score more if he was on a team that didn’t have so many offensive weapons already, just as it would be safe to assume Oden would average more rebounds and points if he didn’t have so many games where he got in bad foul trouble.

Mortimer

by Mortimer on Jan 13, 2009 4:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oden's traditional boxscorre stats (ie ppg, rpg, bpg) would go up

but you can’t assume his per minute stats or his PER would go up. The only stats that would for sure be diffferent are stats that nobody should be using to begin with.

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Jan 13, 2009 9:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

Nobody’s going to or should vote for Oden as rookie of the year. He isn’t in contention.

The question that’s on everybody’s mind is: Is Oden a bust? The answer so far is not really.

But, he doesn’t quite have the magic that Shaq or Duncan showed in their rookie seasons. He doesn’t take over play ever. He rarely does a how’d he do that type move. I still have high hopes though that he’s going to be a monster. But we may have to be content with a Ewing level monster rather than a Olajuwon level monster. I’m not comparing playing styles but the eventual outcome.

The closest comparison I can think of in terms of publicity and pressure is Yao Ming. I can remember most of his rookie campaign there were articles calling him a bust. He’s still not a superstar(in the western hemisphere) but Yao ain’t no bust.

by boppitywop on Jan 14, 2009 8:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

easy on the bynum talk

Blazer fans tell me, where were you,
When our Brandon Roy dropped 52?

by GreatOden'sRaven on Jan 13, 2009 11:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to mention

that with the exception of Howard all those legends played in a different era when more contact and intimidation was allowed. Those same big men might struggle with modern NBA rules. Alot of Howard’s improvement is also the respect he has gained with the refs. When Oden gets that he will average about 2 to 4 more points a game without changing anything about his game, he will just finally get calls and FTA’s.

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Jan 12, 2009 12:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

huh?

They LIED!!!

http://www.nba.com/news/miles_10_080919.html

by maid tu rek on Jan 12, 2009 2:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

he is no

Javale McGee that’s for sure!

j/k

Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.

by jonestr on Jan 11, 2009 9:31 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Flagged!

Troll! Ban him!

kidding… I think Oden will have a better career than Speights or any of those guys. Just look at how Morrow in GS is doing now, early returns don’t say much.

by rmcdougall on Jan 11, 2009 11:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Great post

I completely agree. The last few weeks have been incredibly encouraging, I think far too many fans expected him to be a finished product after one year of college and major surgery. If anything, he’s ahead of where I thought he would be at this point in the year.

Bayless has been testing the fences for weaknesses

by blazeraddict on Jan 11, 2009 10:13 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

He is getting less tacky fouls and travels called, and is no longer stripped that easily of the ball

That was a pretty obvious flaw of his game early on, now it has almost completely disappeared. He might miss the hook, but at least he gets it up and doesn’t turn it over.

by Norsktroll on Jan 12, 2009 4:46 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

He's fine.

The Howard comparison fails to evaluate the basic reality that Oden had one year of college ball, then, because of injury, did not play for a full year. And that meant, no meaningful practices, no one on one, no playing time. As a result, when he stepped back onto the court, his skills were not at the same level they were when he left college – they had, by definition, regressed. Where he is today, is basically back to that same level. From here, he’ll progress. When he rolled his ankle against LA, he lost some games. At this point, he’s had about 30. Of those, it took probably 1/2 or so to get himself into game shape and to stop compensating for the knee, and to then feel more confident in his movement. In basketball skills, Oden was at best, 18 & 1/2 when he came back – if that. 19 was a lost year, and at 20, he had to start from a lower level than he had been at 19.

by Eben Calder on Jan 12, 2009 5:33 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

He's gonna shine tonight.

If he brings the power moves, it’s gonna be dunk city.

Rudyculize: The act of Rudy making others look slow, dim and generally oafish.
http://www.myspace.com/y5k

by Y5k on Jan 12, 2009 6:04 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Nice post. Greg is progressing well.

My one pet peeve about the post (warning grammar police):

From dictionary.com:

Usage Note: Snuck is an Americanism first introduced in the 19th century as a nonstandard regional variant of sneaked. Widespread use of snuck has become more common with every generation. It is now used by educated speakers in all regions. Formal written English is more conservative than other varieties, of course, and here snuck still meets with much resistance. Many writers and editors have a lingering unease about the form, particularly if they recall its nonstandard origins. And 67 percent of the Usage Panel disapproved of snuck in our 1988 survey. Nevertheless, an examination of recent sources shows that snuck is sneaking up on sneaked. Snuck was almost 20 percent more common in newspaper articles published in 1995 than it was in 1985. Snuck also appears in the work of many respected columnists and authors: “He ran up huge hotel bills and then snuck out without paying” (George Stade). “He had snuck away from camp with a cabinmate” (Anne Tyler). “I ducked down behind the paperbacks and snuck out” (Garrison Keillor).

Well, I could be wrong, but I believe diversity is an old, old wooden ship that was used during the Civil War era.

by RoyDrexler on Jan 12, 2009 9:06 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Two of the coolest jobs in the world

Marc Stein’s (senior ESPN.com NBA writer) and that of anybody on the Usage Panel. I’d love to be on the Usage Panel, even if I disagree with them about sneaked and snuck.

by BlazersOrBust on Jan 12, 2009 10:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: snuck - I do a lot of writing on the job and I have been told that my best stuff tends

to sound like it was computer generated. So I try to get a bit folksy once in a while. Just for practice. Like, that last sentence, wasn’t really a sentence, but since I know that, you won’t have to tell me.

by raoulduke on Jan 12, 2009 11:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn't trying to sound snarky

It just bothers me sometimes, like when people mispronounce forte. I liked your post.

Well, I could be wrong, but I believe diversity is an old, old wooden ship that was used during the Civil War era.

by RoyDrexler on Jan 12, 2009 12:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

good post

The whole Oden hype, both positive and negative, may finally start falling into balance to the point where we can just watch his game and enjoy the strides he takes to become a great center in the league.

rolling hard

by Billy Ray Bates on Jan 12, 2009 10:03 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Yes and no

I agree he’s becoming more solid. However, he’s spent most of the last half-dozen games on the bench in foul trouble. Against non-elite frontcourts, he seems to be finding himself for sure.

by Kaboomm on Jan 12, 2009 10:10 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

One play against Golden State really amped me up...

Blazers ball. Jumper goes up and hits the back iron, sending it high into the air. Oden is in the vicinity as are two Warriors. All three jump for the rebound and the ball caroms and ends up in a no man’s land near the baseline 13 feet away from the hoop. Both Warriors end up closest to the ball, but Oden takes the initiative and flashes around to grab the loose ball. He then dices his way through both Warriors with fast and fluid footwork en route to a close range bucket.

I rewound (can you really “rewind” DVR? I don’t even know what you’d call that…) and watched in sheer delight 3 times. This kid will be a gamer.

"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car"

by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Jan 12, 2009 10:40 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I like your signature

My favorite Jack Handy quote is:

“If you ever drop your keys in molten hot lava, just let ‘em go, cuz man, they’re gone.”

Brandon Roy is the Shawn Kemp of monogamy
-BE poster whose name I can't remember

by TheTinfoil on Jan 12, 2009 10:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I fondly remember that play too

 “outlaw tries to create a shot in the paint (go travis! attack!) oh, a miss that’s okay we’ll get the rebound… ..oh, no, wait yes, Greg off the dribble? Damn, kid looks pretty spry and smoov! Yes! 2 points!”

Activate Shavlik Randolph

by appel82 on Jan 12, 2009 12:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

off the dribble...

like he’d been doing it his whole life.

He was moving like a little point guard.

I think he makes his push in the 2nd half of the season.

"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car"

by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Jan 12, 2009 12:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I do remember that Play

and brought it back 3 times to look at it too on my DVR….fantastic move.

And, last nights 3 minute stretch in the 2nd, when he was running the floor, boarding, dunking, making FTs, was ridiculous.

Rip City Baby...People have no idea what is coming.

Follow my twitter www.twitter.com/PDXBlazersFTW, @PDXBlazersFTW. Lots of random Blazer Posts from links I find around the blogosphere.

by lanepete on Jan 13, 2009 1:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

athing to remeber

Amare Stoudemire took a year after the surgery to become close to his old self. so I look at this season for him as a extended summer league and exhibition. on top of that he is 20. Dwight Howard had to take his lumps a few years to. he way I look at it I am seeing the slow birth of a star. just like Chicago natives saw the birth of M.J. (that didn’t happen over night). all Shaquille O’Neal could do his first couple of seasons was brake a back board , grab a few loose boards and foul. I say put the stopper back in the barrel and let this vintage of grapes age to a fine wine.

by farmboy on Jan 12, 2009 11:26 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Let's see--some fans and media are surprised to discover that this guy is going to be a huge asset?

Hello: he’s freaking GREG ODEN!! There’s a REASON they called it the “Greg Oden Draft.” We’re still only seeing the tip of the iceberg; there’s plenty yet to come. GO is EXACTLY what the Blazers have needed. All the rust, nerves, poor conditioning, and rookie adjusting shouldn’t have been sufficient to obscure that. That is, if you used your eyes and a little imagination.

BTW, having Przy on hand to mentor and back up GO is a dream. The last team I rooted for that had two legitimate, defensive-minded 7-foot centers (the Golden State Warriors back in ’75, I believe it was) won a championship. And the combo of GO and Przy is considerably better than George Johnson & Clifford Ray.

"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla

by hurryup09 on Jan 12, 2009 3:46 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

here, here

Oderint dum metuant

by WhiteRabbit on Jan 13, 2009 3:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Anyone else notice that play in the Chicago

game last night when Rudy missed the 3, Greg got the offensive board above his head and finished without bringing the ball back down. (see DMKPDX vid in fanshots) Very nice improvement. Plus, he is getting deeper post position and starting to use his left hand more.

Well, I could be wrong, but I believe diversity is an old, old wooden ship that was used during the Civil War era.

by RoyDrexler on Jan 13, 2009 9:03 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

What can I say?

What can I say? I agree with everything within this post. I have only one unmentioned concern that really isn’t a concern. With the development of Oden, we have seen more and more of the total package, in slowly more and more flashes. As a Blazer fan I’m happy about this. But one thing I’d like to see at some point, is a little more proof that Oden has “got it” mentally. Seemed to me early in this season, and relatively recently that Oden underachieved in big games. The TNT televised “Shaq” matchups, I want to see a pressure packed, big game, against a challenging rival with a perhaps a dominating center that Oden is going against and I want to see Oden handle it. Then I think I can relax and say, he’s got the whole package it’s just a matter of time. Slowly Oden is physically playing better, and that is leading to a better attitude, steadily improving attitude, on the court and off the court. Perhaps that’s the only flash I need to see before the season ends. Am I reapplying pressure to Oden? Yes. Now I want him to prove to me he can handle it.

"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"

by Krang on Jan 14, 2009 5:14 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Something I have noticed...

Greg seems to be playing A LOT better against teams the second time he sees them. Couple of reasons I think for this:

1. He feels more comfortable about what type of defense he is going to see (floppers, bangers, straight up, fronts, etc.)

2. Once his “mind” is able to shut off because he knows what he is going to get, he is able to just let his body take over and his physical abilities dominate

3. As the season progresses he is getting more used to making quick decisions and just going (instead of trying to think. BTW Legler on ESPN made some great comments about this the other day after the Bulls game). Also B-Roy is quoted as saying a couple times, that Greg’s mind controls his play and once he gets used to making quick decisions, physically he will really start to dominate

Time people, he just needs time.

by Matt Daddy on Jan 14, 2009 11:09 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

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