Plays Well With Others
The recent Outlaw topic brought up another side discussion that is worth keeping an eye on as this team continues to evolve. There’s emphasis on the word team in that last sentence. For the first time since the walls were torn down to renovate the franchise, we have what I’d call a solid team coming into the season. Not group of hopefuls, not one or two potential stars with a ton of building yet to do, but a real, live team. Part of being a team rather than just a developing farm club is playing not only well, but together. Players will begin to be judged not just on how they excel as individuals, but how they fit in with each other. In that light we’re going to run down the roster today, seeing who will have the easiest time playing with others and who might be more limited.
NBA basketball provides multiple avenues to team play and fitting into a lineup or rotation. Consider:
OFFENSE-- The archetype of a “team” guy offensively is somebody with great passing skills who knows how to set others up. That model is certainly applicable, but there are other approaches to consider. Some players bend the opponent’s defense through their overwhelming offensive capabilities. These are the guys defenders have half an eye on at all times. They mandate near-automatic double teams, thereby freeing up their teammates for easier cuts, drives, and shots. They could be considered an asset to many lineups even though they’re not in the business of passing the ball. Some guys also fit into multiple lineups because of a particular skill. Outside shooting is notable, as it requires defensive attention at all time and makes defenders pay for helping to defend other players.
DEFENSE-- One of the most basic ways to be a great teammate defensively is simply being able to stop your own man. Dominant defenders who control entire areas of the floor are also a boon to their cohorts. When you relieve a teammate of the responsibility of watching your back you allow him to concentrate more on his individual assignment and you make his decisions fewer, and thus easier. Leaky defenders, on the other hand, place burdens on their teammates. Fewer players can be effective beside them. Another defensive asset is court awareness plus the speed and willingness to help your teammates out of a jam.
MISCELLANEOUS-- Some players have strong attributes that allow them to fit with multiple lineups. Being the right size, or even oversized, for your position is one. Being able to play multiple positions is another. Few people mind playing with teammates who can rebound on the defensive end, can stand up to opponents nose-to-nose, or who are willing to scrape their knees diving for loose balls. There’s also something to be said for being able to do your job without having the offense set up for you or the defense set up to cover for you. Extra bonus points for those who create or cover for others.
With these things in mind we’re going to list the Blazers roughly in order of flexibility in terms of team play. Note that this is NOT a measure of overall talent! The “best” players will not necessarily be at the top of the list! This is simply an attempt to delineate each player’s ability to play with a variety of teammates and in a variety of situations. There is no argument here that the best or most effective lineup would be the top five players listed.
Brandon Roy: Brandon Roy’s combination of multi-directional dribbling, shooting, vision, and passing make him fit with any combination you throw out there. While he’s played primarily shooting guard so far he could have the tools to fill multiple positions. He requires so much attention that he guarantees somebody on his side is going to be open. Some might quibble with his need/desire to keep the ball in his hands but you’d have to argue there are few better in the league to possess it. Also he’s plenty unselfish with it, so there’s no harm there. He can also rebound and is willing to do what it takes for the team to win. Part of the reason Coach McMillan finds it so hard to keep
Steve Blake: Blake ranks high on this list because he is the ultimate team player. He knows how to set up an offense. He knows how and when to pass. He needs zero shots to be effective but he can hit a shot when he’s open. He’s an adequate defender, though his body isn’t built for locking people down. The only blemish on his suitability for any lineup is his relative lack of ability to create his own shot. In critical situations this allows opponents to pay less attention to him, which makes it harder on his teammates. Nevertheless Blake is a guy who can be inserted almost anytime, almost anywhere with success. He’s a good utility player.
Rudy Fernandez: Naturally the discussion of all rookies is speculative, having not seen them play in the NBA. However Rudy has assets that will allow him to blend with multiple lineup configurations. Like Steve Blake he can hit a shot without having to take every one. Unlike Blake he can also get his own shot when needed. He is good when taking over a game but is also capable of laying back. He’s an eager help defender and has the quickness to get to a spot. He has good height and might turn into a scrappy player as well. His weaknesses will be point-of-attack defense and rebounding.
Greg Oden: Oden’s biggest blending asset is going to be his defense. Simply put, everybody is going to love playing with him because he’ll be a one-man wrecking crew watching their backs. “Ooops! I made a mistake and let my guy get by. Coach is gonna…never mind. Nice block, Greg!” Once he gets adjusted to the league the entire paint will be his territory on that end of the court. He’ll be like a bigger, stronger Tim Duncan from the days of his defensive youth. If you remember the days when the Spurs had
Sergio Rodriguez: Sergio’s love of the pass and his ability to thread it anywhere pulls him fairly far up this list. His teammates already love playing with him on offense even with limited exposure. You cannot fall asleep if the ball is in his hands. His ability to penetrate increases his threat potential. The holes in his game right now are finishing at the rim, hitting the jumper, and defense. Those keep him farther down the list than his game style would otherwise merit. At some point it becomes hard to find a lineup in which he’d be the ideal choice unless you want to forget it and just run.
Lamarcus Aldridge: Lamarcus’ greatest strength is his variety of offensive skills. He’s not shy about putting up a shot and is looking to be the endpoint of the offensive plays he’s involved in rather than a conduit. The thing is, he’s so talented that he will be one of those endpoint players we keep out there. Everybody else (except
Joel Przybilla: Joel’s defense and rebounding are his calling cards. His ability to block shots cleans up a lot of backcourt mistakes. He’s capable of getting defensive boards in droves and is clearly the Blazers’ best glass cleaner until Oden takes his title away. Even more importantly from a team perspective, Joel sets the best picks seen in these parts in ages. Joel has the minor fault of not always being aggressive and impactful enough. His major fault is not being a viable offensive threat. Over the years his minutes have been limited compared to his potential contribution simply because opposing teams don’t need to guard him closely. In some situations that doesn’t matter as much. In others it keeps you from playing him.
Channing Frye: Channing’s mid-range jumper lets you use him out to 20 feet. He doesn’t have to handle the ball or dominate it to hit his shot. This makes him fairly versatile on the offensive end. His rebounding came around towards the end of last season but still needs to be shown consistently. He’s neither a bruiser nor an interior defender, so he needs to be paired with someone strong in the middle in order to be most effective.
Jerryd Bayless: Jerryd’s biggest asset in terms of lineup suitability appears to be his hard-nosed play and willingness to do what it takes to win. In Summer League his stand-still jumper looked spotty until the game was on the line, then he drained a couple of threes like he was making pancakes on Sunday morning. He is willing to take contact and can stay in front of his man. How much he can share the ball or be effective without it in his hands remains to be seen. If his gritty offensive play translates into a willingness to go all-out for loose balls and take no crap from opponents (and if he can pass a little) he could rocket up this chart.
Travis Outlaw: Travis is another one of those guys who can bend the game with his offensive skills. He is guaranteed to be able to get a shot up anywhere, anytime on anyone. Though he has excelled in critical moments he’s still a relative novice to them, but if he continues his crunch-time heroics opponents will be forced to throw double-teams at him, making him even a greater asset. When he gets an angle for the weak-side or from-the-back block Outlaw can also be a champion at help defense. His length and leaping ability let him cover space quickly. He’s still working on his overall game, though, even on offense. He seldom passes the ball and really needs to dominate with his scoring in order to make the lineup better at this point.
Martell Webster: Martell’s outside shooting is his ticket to playing time at this point. We saw last season how James Jones could fit with a variety of lineups because he never missed beyond the arc. Martell is not that consistent yet but his shooting can still spread the defense. He added a few thunderous dunks and improved defensive effort to his repertoire last season, which was to the good. Every skill he develops makes him more useful. However even with all of that he has a tendency to fade when not give a steady diet of shots. Plus he’s either going to take those shots or make a bail-out pass. He’s not skilled at directly making his teammates better. Unlike Outlaw he needs a fair amount of help himself in the form of screens or set-up passes in order to prosecute his offense.
I have not included Raef LaFrentz, Ike Diogu, or Nicolas Batum on this list. Raef is a veteran who will give his all no matter where he’s inserted but is unlikely to see non-emergency playing time. Ike has been injured and there’s no telling how he’ll come back. His rebounding and physical abilities would be an asset to most lineups. Nicolas is not going to see the light of day for a while.
Obviously you need a variety of talents and styles to make a team. You can’t put five pure set-up men out there any more than you could put five ball-dominating scorers. But all other things being equal (keeping in mind that often they’re not, as a single, overwhelming skill can often trump a variety of lesser skills), the guys at the top of this list are going to give their coaches more options as to when and how to play them.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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Comments
FIRST
what do I win?? A kick in the head?? NICE!!
Well put Dave. KP has always used the analogy of the cake. He’s putting to gether a ake mixing it all together and letting it bake and we will see what we get hopefully after the icing and cherry on top are put on in the summer of 09 and we will see how this all tastes.
What is great about our team is the make up: I love thet fact that we have 2 players that are pretty straight forward and you know what you will get from them, in GO and LMA, our cake base, flour and sugar (you guys can divy up who is who.) Both post players with a nice mix of defensive and offensive skills and good bigman passing abliity as well. They get up and down the court quickly and with the high low game they should be fun to watch in action.
With regards to the other players you mentioned, I fully agree with your top 3 selections in the fact that they are like the oil and vanilla of this cake in the fact that, while they do not make the cake itself, rather they make the cake taste a whole lot better without changing much by itself.
Rudy, Roy and less so Blake (cause he cant create his own shot as well as the first 2) ar much like the oil or fat that makes everything taste better in this cake. It is so nice that they can play with ANY team and should be able to fit in and make the whole team better, be it from their passing, outside shot or driving abilities. Look at Roy in the ASG, he made that entire team better and if it wasnt for Dork launching all those crappy 3s the West might of had a shot to get back in it if Paul and Roy would of went to work for the majority of the time.
Roy has the amazing and rare power to make everyone around him better and from what I have seen form Rudy, in the Olys (where he was not option1 as he was in DKV) I saw another guy who would fill in the blanks, move without the ball, run his D’er ragged of screens, ala Reggie Miller or Rip Hamilton, threaten to score at all times if the D’er layed off, opening up the court for his teammates. I see those skills and I drool much like Nate did seeing him in person.
Both Roy and Rudy are extremely similar in the fact that they make the players on their teams better and that makes us that much better.
The season cannot get here soon enough.
by SpyderRyder on Sep 5, 2008 12:30 AM PDT 0 recs
Oh! I can't wait until I have time to read this.
Moving is 851212.
"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar
by annthefan on Sep 5, 2008 1:26 AM PDT 0 recs
I wouldn't mind...
seeing Roy get a little more rest this season. One type of game that could work without him is the run n’ gun phoenix style offense that McMillan has mastered in his months spent with D’Antonio on Team USA. Sergio/Bayless, Rudy, Trout, Frye/Aldridge, and Frye/Pryzbilla could really get up and down. One of McMillan’s tasks come training camp will be to find out which 5 players can run the break better than any other five. How crazy fast would a Sergio, Bayless, Rudy, Travis, and Frye line-up be? Granted we’re lacking for a lil D there, but if we are up big early in some games we could throw that in there to keep up the scoring and simply beat opponents by scoring more than they do.
I’d love to see the Blazers increase their scoring this season by ten points. If they do that, it’s hard not to see them winning at least 50 games. With Phoenix looking to slow it down and Dallas searching for new ways to win, the run’n gun teams of yesteryear are fading fast. As one of the youngest teams ever, we really should take more advantage of our fresh legs. A solid dose of Oden followed by some scrappy, European darts ought to handle most teams on a regular basis. If everyone on this team wants more shots, we need to shoot more. If we can do that while simultaneously holding it down defensively (which we will), we will have already accomplished something special in this era’s NBA.
My only other thought is that Martell probably should have his improving defense recognized. He does an admirable job defending the perimeter and even squeezes in some kersey-esque rebounds here and there. His overall value to the team will keep him in the starting line-up until the day he is either traded, injured, and signed elsewhere via free angency. He could be a staple here if he continues to improve next season, and our wishes to improve our play at the 3 will disappear in a raincloud of 3-balls from all over the court and dunks like the one Brandon Wright still has nightmares about.
"You can't buy your woman a watch because she got a clock on the stove."-Sir Charles Barkley
by shwa on Sep 5, 2008 1:39 AM PDT 0 recs
yes bro
The other teams that run and gun dont play deffense. Look at Warriors and Suns they dont play deffense. Its time Blazers combine to styles. We have the size to play D like the Spurs and the firepower to run Like the Warriors and suns. If Blazers can mesh both styles and make it as one they will be unstoppable. Just imagine if we wont give othe teams the ability to score but will run and gun on the old teams. No worries if the D is back on us and we cant fast break, Roy can take over there.
by RipCity on
Sep 5, 2008 7:09 PM PDT
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Sounds kinda '77ish to me
TRAIL BLAZER BASKETBALL!
"He doesn't let grass grow under his feet when there are points to be had." - Dave
by BlueBooYay on
Sep 5, 2008 10:43 PM PDT
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I like what I see
So far,…however, my excitement is more controlled…I’m just one of those people who doesn’t count bunnies….until reality starts to set in, and we realize more bunnies may be on the way…
This team has not established a fast break style (even if this is what they want to do, they may not have the right personnel . So I see a controlled fast break experiment first…(The 77 team was the best you’ll ever see at running the break, but they had the speed, the defense, and the rebound /outlet pass(Walton)….Most of all, they were mentality geared for it…It was always part of their game plan….i just don’t see that with this team, ….yet.
The success of this team may or may not depend on the fast break, but they need to get easy hoops somehow….
( if any one watched the 76-77 team you’ll notice one thing about their break; Pass, pass, pass…this is the fastest way to get the ball down court, and thus, keep the defense on their heels) You do not see this much today in teams that run. I guess this may be because they rely on the players athletic abilities to transition the ball….Another point is the 76-77 team turned the ball over (you do this when you run fast breaks often) But they always overcame this, by stopping other teams, wearing them out, and getting so many easy hoops….Nate does not like turnovers, so I think he may be quick to abandon the fast break, unless it is more controlled.
You also have to stop the other teams offense with sound defense and getting the ball on missed shots …..this leads me to my other comment about defense and rebounding…Both have been weak points on this team(should get a lot better and will)…I still can not agree on Webster improving that much on “D” …or just maybe he’s was so bad to begin with, he just looks better now. The only reason he is in the starting line up is that there is no one else. It looks as though he may have a new approach, this season, to prove he needs to be on this team…..This season will show a lot to what the future has in store for both he and Outlaw.
I share everyone’s enthusiasm, but I always take the wait and see approach, and include weighing some of the parts that may prevent them from getting where they would like to be. One thing for sure; they are a promising team, with a great future and great fans to back them up.
by 67 on
Sep 6, 2008 8:59 AM PDT
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Yeah Baby!
The excitement gathers.
"He doesn't let grass grow under his feet when there are points to be had." - Dave
by BlueBooYay on
Sep 6, 2008 3:31 PM PDT
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We are...
"He doesn't let grass grow under his feet when there are points to be had." - Dave
by BlueBooYay on
Sep 6, 2008 4:01 PM PDT
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Maybe a little surprisingly, I wouldn't rank Blake that high
In addition to not being a great scoring threat himself, he especially lacks in the “miscellaneous” department, not being able to effectively play against bigger shooting guards when Roy makes the play. If we want to run more of these “two SG combos” with Roy then Bayless and Rudy (maybe even Martell a few times) can be used more versatile than Steve or Sergio. Still, Steve will likely see more playing time than either of them.
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
by Norsktroll on Sep 5, 2008 2:01 AM PDT 0 recs
Yes, What's Missing
Dave provides an interesting down-time angle for a column. Good analysis overall. But he Sergio too high and Blake a little too high. I think Dave is valuing distribution over other attributes. E.g., Sergio’s matador defense needs to magically disappear for him to be that far up. LMA should be higher — he gives the team what it needs from the 4 and is so solid that it is easy to not fully appreciate what he brings.
Here is one major factor Dave should have pulled out of miscellaneous into its own category that is skewing his team player analysis: Toughness.
Yes, toughness is standing up for the team, taking on the other team’s challenge, and giving it back to them. Toughness is standing up for yourself or a teammate. It is also making that huge response play to take back the momentum, whether draining the 3 ice cold or chasing down that breakaway for the block. It is locking your guy down when that is what it takes to stop a run. It is most importantly unshakability from the goal within the battle.
Sergio lacks toughness, so he goes down the list. LMA has toughness, he moves up.
Blake has so much tenacity, he’s tough for what he brings physically. Roy is tough. BRoy comes back tougher after every time he gets knocked down. Oden — he is a gamer, big and tough. Prb’zilla the Killa? You got it: Tough. Bayless was born tough — he looks at you like “Hey, you wouldn’t make it five minutes where I come from.” Channing, I would say more a steady hand, cerebral, but he studied boxing in the off season: getting tougher. I would like to see more toughness at the 3.
Rudy is my toughness X factor. Anybody who can personally storm back on Team USA shows he has heart and heart is necessary for toughness. I can’t wait to see Rudy suit up for us. Add NBA coaching and an inch of muscle all around?
Some games are won on toughness. I want the Blazers to win those games.
'77
by LaoTzu on
Sep 5, 2008 10:06 AM PDT
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Blake averaged 8.5 ppg
Which was 6th on the team. He can score if you ignore him, and his 3pt shooting makes you pay attention to him always. Or pay the consequence.
by jamon51 on
Sep 5, 2008 11:27 PM PDT
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I don't think he is bad by any stretch of the imagination
Just that I wouldn’t rank him #2 in the versatility department.
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
by Norsktroll on
Sep 6, 2008 1:26 AM PDT
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Great analysis as usual
One tiny quibble:
"Ooops! I made a mistake and let my guy get by. Coach is gonna…never mind. Nice block, Greg!"
Let’s rephrase that.
“Ooops! I made a mistake and let my guy get by. Oh, well, it happens sometimes, since he’s past me I’ll just go ahead and leak out on the fast break, because Greg will block the shot and my man will never catch up with me now!”
One of my fan posts got 50 signatures. And you thought I was egotistical before. But nobody can do Ego like I can.
by jscot on Sep 5, 2008 2:04 AM PDT 0 recs
Good Post
Yesterday’s interview with Mac on OregonLive and Bartlett add some spice to this. The first thing Mac said to Bartlett before even saying hello, was “you’re going to like Rudy”. He added that Rudy is a rare player who “plays every possession”, and that “you simply have to get a body on him on the offensive end”. And, he’s not unhappy with him defensively. Another interesting comment from Mac on OregonLive was that “we’re going to have to put a starting lineup together”, and “we pretty much have two players at every position”, and “we don’t know the lineup until we get into training camp”. Bartlett also noted other quotes: 1) Martell is in very good shape and shooting the ball well (lot’s of summer practice to be a more consistent 3 pt shooter); 2) Aldridge did some serious weight work, his arms are cut, defined, and larger (lots of work to improve his rebounding); and 3) Bayless’s team-mates are saying “he can d-up anyone” (makes him good playing opposite Roy or Fernandez and guarding points). Now tie that into the hard work Frye’s been putting in to get lighter, stronger, and to hit the 3 pt consistently, and this begins to fit well with Dave’s comments.
I still suspect we know who the starting lineup will be in the beginning – Oden, Aldridge, Webster, Roy and Blake. However, Travis had better come in this year in shape, have improved that dribble, and start upgrading his passing and his defense. Last year he wasn’t fully in shape for the first 15 games of the season, but this year he doesn’t have the same option. Mac has more scoring options – so scoring alone may not be enough. If Webster/Frye have improved, and you then throw Fernandez into the mix, as well as Bayless, Travis will need more than that outside shot. Mac can opt for small ball (which he’s already mentioned) meaning put Roy/Fernandez at SF , and he can also go large, as in have Oden/Aldridge/Frye (if hits the 3 pointer) on the floor at the same time – both of which will also cut into Travis at SF. Further, guys like Blake, Bayless, Frye and now Webster are playing everyday with Oden and together, and that experience is going to help early in the season. Mississippi’s fine – but the action is in Portland.
by Eben Calder on Sep 5, 2008 6:39 AM PDT 0 recs
"Two players at every position"
A scary amount of talent in depth. I think KP is breaking the mold of an 8 man rotation. This is a very strong 10 man squad that can go all out and wear people down because of the depth.
If they click together quickly, this could be far better than people think.
One of my fan posts got 50 signatures. And you thought I was egotistical before. But nobody can do Ego like I can.
by jscot on
Sep 5, 2008 6:57 AM PDT
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Nate addressed the 10 man rotation on 95.5 last night
Answering a fan’s direct question about resting Roy more and going with a 10 man rotation, Nate said there are minuses to using that many guys in a regular rotation. Guys get stiff on the bench and lose their rythm. He is expecting Roy to average about what he did last year, 38 per game. he also said most guys would rather not play at all than pick up 5 or 6 minutes in a game.
It sounded like 9 was the deepest he wanted to go in the regular rotation. I will see if they have the inteview up on their website.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
by tssbro on
Sep 5, 2008 7:41 AM PDT
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Link
I couldn’t get it to play but maybe my computer was taking to long or something…
http://955thegame.com/tabid/70/mid/402/view/detail/ItemId/523/default.aspx
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
by tssbro on
Sep 5, 2008 7:45 AM PDT
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Oden
You forgot the offensive board, put back dunk. I don’t know anybody that dislikes someone saving his butt after a poor shot.
by keephopealive on Sep 5, 2008 6:51 AM PDT 0 recs
jscot
My take too. Let’s face it. Oden, Pryz,Frye,Aldridge, Webster, Outlaw, Blake, Roy, Bayless and even Diogu were all top 10 draft picks. That, and having 3 solid rookies coming in in one year – all rated top 10 in terms of rookies this year – is quite a group.
Only Rudy, picked last year, was not a top 10. But neither was Parker, and anyone listening to Mac simply gets the fact that Mac is sold on the guy. He was an absolute steal the way we got him.
by Eben Calder on Sep 5, 2008 7:17 AM PDT 0 recs
Good Looking Line-up
Blake, Rudy, Roy, Aldridge, Oden according to your list would be the best “team” line-up and that looks pretty darm impressive.
It would be a safe line-up that might not run as much as some would like but that would play under control and be solid on offense and defense. Blake and Rudy would stretch the floor with their outside shooting. Roy and Rudy would penetrate and finish or dish or you could work inside out with Oden in the post. A tough line-up to double team for sure.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
by tssbro on Sep 5, 2008 8:00 AM PDT 0 recs
Dave-Great work
Dave, It is amazing how much quality content you continue to deliver day after day after day. Thanks! Andy
K*be is a rapist.
by Pritchslap on Sep 5, 2008 8:45 AM PDT 0 recs
Your Welcome
What? YOU said thanks to me!
"It's how you play the Ga-ame..." - Greg Oden with Justin Timeberlake at the Espy's
by BlazermaniacAndy on
Sep 5, 2008 9:20 AM PDT
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We are on the same side - right?
I stand corrected on Outlaw and Blake. In terms of rookies, I wasn’t talking about their draft position this year, but how ESPN, Hoopsworld, realgm and the rest evaluate the rookies coming in this year. Oden and Fernandez are from last year draft, but both are consistently ranked as being in the top 10 of this years rookie class., Bayless might have been a #11, but KP traded a 13 and a player because he ranks him #4 of this years draft, and he is universally being cited as being a top 10 rookie – regardless of his draft position.
In any case, I’m sorry if I got your shorts in a knot. I’ll try to temper my enthusiasm so that you don’t feel so upset the next time. After all, we’re all on the same side here – aren’t we.
by Eben Calder on Sep 5, 2008 9:04 AM PDT 0 recs
you're ona fandoms' side
where I’m on quality fandom’s side. The list of players you gave was long and the only rooks you mentioned at first were Bayless and Oden. I get it now that it’s just a subjective list you compiled of guys who you think are top ten talents from their draft years, but do you really believe that about Ike Diogu too? Pryzbilla and Blake are solid but that’s an iffy one as well. Didn’t mean to come across as a hater but next time perhaps say what you mean to say and not what you hope others will read (between the lines).
"You can't buy your woman a watch because she got a clock on the stove."-Sir Charles Barkley
by shwa on
Sep 5, 2008 10:13 AM PDT
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Today must be trash Nic day.. :(
First NBF makes fun of his mouth breathing and then Dave…
Nicolas is not going to see the light of day for a while.
Im pretty sure my day is ruined, thanks guys
Sophia
"Thank God those nightmarish booty-less days are behind us. I blame cocaine."-Mortimer
I detest that man who hides one thing in the depths of his heart, and speaks for another. - Homer
That was a very hard winter,
and it was just like one long night,
with me lying awake, waiting and waiting and waiting
for daybreak.
- Black Elk
1881
The wild hawk stood with the down on his beak And stared with his foot on the prey. - Lord Alfred Tennyson
by BlazerFan1 on Sep 5, 2008 9:18 AM PDT 0 recs
oh fiddlesticks
i cant even do a block quote correctly.
"Thank God those nightmarish booty-less days are behind us. I blame cocaine."-Mortimer
I detest that man who hides one thing in the depths of his heart, and speaks for another. - Homer
That was a very hard winter,
and it was just like one long night,
with me lying awake, waiting and waiting and waiting
for daybreak.
- Black Elk
1881
The wild hawk stood with the down on his beak And stared with his foot on the prey. - Lord Alfred Tennyson
by BlazerFan1 on
Sep 5, 2008 9:18 AM PDT
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Correct assessment by Dave, since the sun never shines in Idaho
It’s a dark and cold wasteland, right? At least that’s what I’m told. See picture titled “Idaho Skyline”:

Plays well with others? There is no one to play with! Poor Nic.
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
by Norsktroll on
Sep 5, 2008 9:34 AM PDT
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Don't worry Sophia maybe Nicolas is not going to see the light of day for a while but IMO he is a FANTASTIC player
sooner than later Nate will give him an opportunity. Anyway I am afraid he has come into NBA too early
by cbp on
Sep 5, 2008 9:35 AM PDT
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Maybe if he doesn't play
Nic will be looking for someone to comfort him?
One of my fan posts got 50 signatures. And you thought I was egotistical before. But nobody can do Ego like I can.
by jscot on
Sep 5, 2008 12:04 PM PDT
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Dave, The emphasis on team play
Is good to hear at Blazers edge…It will be the defining moment when this team finally evolves into what everyone really wants them to be…..I have always been relentless in any argument about the misc. portion of your post…You have Outlaw and Webster in the right spot…This is what disturbs me about both of them…They have never picked up on the “team” concept…
What is Outlaw doing in the off season?….Well for one he’s trying to figure out about what he needs from the team and coaches to become a star …What a bonehead approach to addressing his career. He’s lost it and IMO will not make it on this team.
He and Webster have not grown into mature players at all (although it does look like Webster is making more of an effort as of late)…When you talk about the Misc. dept., these guys are totally out…1. They do not play fundamental position defense or team defense 2. I can count on one hand how many times both have dived for a loose ball. 3. I do not see relentless pursuit of the ball on rebounds or loose balls. 4. Hustle plays, in general do not exist from either. 5.. Passing the ball , setting screens, back door plays…all missing from their game. Gee, there is so much more they could pursue to help this team…and become part of it.
They have some game, but team play is the topic and they do not have the parts. Their minds should be focused on the simple fact that the 3 position is the weakest spot on this team….. And this is their spot…..What do I, as a player, need to do to make this position stronger? What are the coaches expecting me to do? This is the part that I should concentrate on. If I miss my shots or don’t run the play through me, what else can I do to contribute?
Sorry….I guess I’m bashing these guys….But, their lack of something (desire maybe) has kept me form getting on board with them. I think this position will be looked at very seriously this season. The Blazers are looking to build a team with the emphasis on the team concept….So far, Outlaw and Webster don’t fit.
by 67 on Sep 5, 2008 9:29 AM PDT 0 recs
I appreciate what you're trying to say,
and agree partially with some of your points, but I think you’re being a little hard on these guys. While I agree TO’s on ball defense on the perimeter has been horrendous, he’s shown some flashes coming from the weakside. Admittedly, most of those were when he was playing the 4 and in a better position to come over and provide help, but that’s still better than the nothing that you think they’ve shown.
Webster I’d argue is the opposite. He hasn’t shown anything special as far as defending when his guy doesn’t have the ball, but he showed some flashes as a wing defender. Maybe not over the course of the season, but definitely through stretches in games he was able to keep a couple elite wings(one of our laker games comes to mind) from getting to the rim and force them into taking longish jumpers. This is exactly the same defensive philosophy guys like Battier and Bowen use on the elite guys. Keep them away from the rim and contest as best as possible. No matter how good those guys are, if all they’re going is shooting fairly contested jump shots is not going to see them putting up huge numbers on a regular basis unless they’re jacking up 30 shots a night.
What I like about Webster is that even though he was drafted pretty much purely as an offensive guy, it seems like he’s starting to “get” that he needs to become a big time defensive player. It takes most of the good defensive players some European stints before they can really lock down that Niche and most are by no means elite athletes to begin with (Bowen, Bell). It’s really a matter of dedication and learning the tricks of the trade. Bowen wasn’t a stopper until he was like 29. If Webster can get to a similar level by age 24 or so, along with his superior shooting to Bowen, he’ll be a tremendous asset.
The most damning assessment of both of these guys is their tendency to drift and not contribute when they don’t see shots. Hopefully this is just a youth thing that the grow out of, but if that doesn’t happen quick, it’d be tough to justify keeping them around.
by Royster on
Sep 5, 2008 10:24 AM PDT
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These young players
could still shine, even if they only supply limited aspects of their game…But I just don’t see them as starters or getting big minutes unless they make the commitment to improve in other areas…I just don’t see the team hanging on to them (as prospects fort the 3 spot)…But instead, just like a team that would keep a Bowen or Bell (role players)….
They have both improved, but they may be reaching their full potential…… In the end, it will be a team thing (regardless of whether they start or not) I just think that the Blazers look at the 3 spot as something left to be desired….because there are players out there that can fill all aspects of this spot, including what Outlaw or Webster are currently bringing to the table. There is still time to make this team…..
What happens to these players if teams start overplaying Outlaw ‘s right side or get on Webster’s spot up 3…Take away their strong suit and what do you have left?
by 67 on
Sep 5, 2008 11:40 AM PDT
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If Webster
1. Notches up his 3pt percentage a couple of percent.
2. Shows noticeable improvement on defense (even if he isn’t great)
3. Shows a noticeable improvement in ball handling (even if he isn’t great)
then he’ll stay.
He’s only 21, and if he shows he is still improving in the three areas where we really need him, we’ll keep him.
He doesn’t need to be great at any of these, he needs to be a solid contributor in those three areas, especially the first two. We don’t need an all-star at SF.
I don’t think Travis will ever be our starting SF. I think he has the potential to be sixth man of the year, except that Rudy may beat him out. But we may see Roy, Rudy, and Bayless starting next year, with Travis the key scorer off the bench.
One of my fan posts got 50 signatures. And you thought I was egotistical before. But nobody can do Ego like I can.
by jscot on
Sep 5, 2008 12:11 PM PDT
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Why can't Trout ever be a starter?
Agreed, he is not there yet. But we have so many solid pieces, Travis’ unique set of skills and talents could develop into a starter down the road.
I think Travis is a better SF. Martell is slated to start at 3 with the idea we need bench scoring. If Rudy is on the second unit (if we even have “units” — Nate’s talk last night indicates he would like a 8 or 9 man rotation rather than subbing in a fresh group), then some of that need is gone.
I would add rebounding to your list of things Martell needs to improve. As a tweener, he is in a hard spot. I hope he gets his head right and improves the 3pt%, then the rest will have time to develop.
'77
by LaoTzu on
Sep 5, 2008 1:53 PM PDT
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I guess the reasoning behind that starting order is twofold
Martell spreads the floor well with his three point shots, at least still better than Travis. So either he gets more open shots when LaMarcus and Greg get double teamed, or he draws a defender away and the two have it easier down low.
Second, Travis is the better scorer and can create shots for himself, which especially last year was very valuable for the second unit. Add that in the first unit he would get even fewer shots now with Greg in there, and it’s pretty clear that he still fits in better with this group.
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
by Norsktroll on
Sep 5, 2008 2:05 PM PDT
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Martell's rebounding
If we get better rebounding out of Martell, it’s a bonus.
If he shoots a high volume of 3s at a 42-43% rate (or better) and becomes a very effective defender, we can get by without better rebounding from him. Other teams might not, but we can.
I’m not saying it wouldn’t be good if he improved, and I think he’s capable of it. But it is pretty low on the list of things we need from him.
Why can’t Trout start? He could, of course. But to go with Roy/Oden/LMA, we want A) a good perimeter defender B) a good catch and shoot threat for 3 C) someone who moves well without the ball and D) someone who is an effective passer in the half court offense, since we’ve got threats everywhere, and ball movement will break down any defense.
Can Travis learn to do all of those? Of course. But five years into his career, he is none of them. He is not really any of the things we need in our starting SF right now. So I don’t think he’ll ever be a good fit as the starting 3, as long as we have the Big Three.
Can Martell learn to do all of those? I think he’s a lot closer than Travis. Travis is, IMO, a better player right now. But Martell is a better fit with our starters, and much closer to being the long term fit with them.
One of my fan posts got 50 signatures. And you thought I was egotistical before. But nobody can do Ego like I can.
by jscot on
Sep 5, 2008 2:52 PM PDT
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I can see your arguments
They seem almost … too logical. Still, I wonder what Travis could do in with that high powered starting unit. The offensive fire power we would have out there! Our rebounding would be better and we would be better on the break.
I get hung up over in Martell being a natural wing player, really a 2. And with Rudy, I think we’ll have a better option if we want that. I do think Roy can guard most 3s.
Martell can really drift if he is not on. I know, he is really young, the younger of this pair. Maybe he’ll mature and get more automatic. But right now, his streakiness scares me.
'77
by LaoTzu on
Sep 5, 2008 3:42 PM PDT
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this whole "best fit" business kind of annoys me
In a playoff series, Travis is consitently gonna be a better fit than Webster, cuz he is BETTER. He understands how to put the ball in the hoop……
In the playoffs, I play my best 5
Roy,Rudy,Travis, Aldridge, Oden…..Unles bayless matches up really well with the oposing pg.
Martell starts cuz we can get away with it in the regular season. But he does not contribute in being a part of our best line up. Thats why he doesnt play at the end of games.
Its my opinion, Travis matches up with 3s well. Martell, so so…….(he really an oversized 2)…..And if it were to go head to head, Travis would own Martell in a playoff series.
Looking at it with that kind of mentality, its not difficult deciding who should be on the floor……but OK. We’ll let MArtell start the regular season, unless he’s traded….
But come playoffs, where everything is based off individual match ups anyway, Travis better be in there. Cuz he simply is BETTER
by BroyTheTruth on
Sep 5, 2008 5:26 PM PDT
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This comment misses some important points
You don’t just “play your best five”. Dave Twardzik was not one of the best five players on our championship team. Lloyd Neal was a better player, Arguably, so was Johnny Davis. But Twardzik was a PG, and Neal was a PF/C.
Somebody had to bring the ball up.
Somebody has to defend inside.
Somebody has to defend outside.
Somebody has to provide a low post threat.
Somebody has to hit the outside shot.
Somebody has to slash to the hoop.
You’ve got to have a team on the floor in the playoffs that can cover all of those bases.
Travis, right now, brings two things. First, he’s a great guy, and that fits well with any line-up. Second, he’s a virtually unstoppable scorer when he is on, and the frequency of his “on” days improved significantly last year, and that’s superb.
But it is a waste of Travis’ one great strength (scorer) to have the bulk of his time on the court be with a lineup that is scorer-heavy.
At this point, until Travis develops more skills, he needs to be given the ball and told, “Go score.” That is great off the bench, but that isn’t going to happen in the starting unit very often, and it shouldn’t.
One of my fan posts got 50 signatures. And you thought I was egotistical before. But nobody can do Ego like I can.
by jscot on
Sep 5, 2008 11:15 PM PDT
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One sided thinking
With all due respect, I think you are making a classic fan mistake: you seem to be thinking almost exclusively about one-on-one, individual, offensive skills.
The whole point of this thread is to talk about TEAM. Outlaw is certainly a better one-on-one scorer than Webster. Rudy is a better scorer than Blake. But half of the game takes place on defense. Outlaw is not a proven perimeter defender. He lacks lateral quickness and is often out of position. Whether or not Rudy can defend the “1” is yet to be determined. At best I think it will take time.
Offense is not just a matter of one on one skill, it is about player and ball movement, and about spacing. Martell is, at this point, a much better three point threat than Travis. Martell will keep the opposing three from cheating down low to help on LA and GO, and is better able to punish those who try.
Offensive efficiency is created by creating mismatches and getting the ball in the hands of a player in a position where they can be highly effective. It is nice to have a guy like TO, who can create his own shot, but it is better to have a team that knows how to move the ball around the court to find the mismatches.
by upper left corner on
Sep 6, 2008 8:05 AM PDT
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A key moment I remember
was in the 2003 playoffs for SA against the Lakers, I believe. Tony Parker and Speedy Claxton were the only guys who had played point at all during the playoffs for SA, but no one could hit a shot to save their lives, so in comes a 38 year old Steve Kerr who promptly drains like 4 threes in a row. I don’t think anyone in their right mind thought that Steve Kerr was a better player than Tony P or Speedy at that point, and Steve Kerr definitely couldn’t play a lick of D anymore, but he allowed the rest of the offense to work and opened up things for Duncan. With LA and Oden, having an excellent midrange scorer may not be the best option, especially given LA’s love of 18-footers.
The fact of the matter with TO is, he’s not even close to the 3 point threat that Webster is, especially at the end of the year when he started to really light it up (51% over his last 9 games, even with one 1-7 night). Being able to hit the corner three is great, and TO did it really well last year, but the farther distance from the wing and straight on generates a little more spacing, and TO barely took those and when he did, he was pretty awful at them.
Even though Webs may not be MJ or even Ray Allen out there, he’s good enough to stretch the defense and with a little toughness and hardwork, he could turn into a better James Posey, and we all saw what he meant to Boston this year.
by Royster on
Sep 6, 2008 9:02 AM PDT
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Throw this in
Twardzik was a smart player too…Outlaw is outrageously athletic, and this is why he’s in the NBA..Webster…well…. potential, potential, potential…..what this means is; an argument for a position that still needs to be filled with a more complete player….
This, for now, is Webster starting and Outlaw thrown in at crunch time….So IMO Both are only role players or backups , but not the player they need at this spot in the future. I would welcome either of these guys to prove me wrong…..Right now, neither is better than Bobby Gross (who was not that good of a player, but knew where he fit in)
……..to be continued
by 67 on
Sep 6, 2008 9:26 AM PDT
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Did you watch the 76-77 series...
on comcast recently? They replayed all 6 games with Brent Musberger in all his glory. Bobby Gross was money. I would run him out there as our starting three over Outlaw and Webster because the guy could play defense and hit the jumper and pass the ball inside and move well without the ball. All he did was hold Dr. J in check for four straight games to win a championship.
(I would think, like most NBA guys from his generation who played without a 3pt line but were solid mid-range jump shooters , that he would have been at worst a decent 3 Pt shooter if he had played in the era of the three ball.)
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
by tssbro on
Sep 6, 2008 10:17 AM PDT
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Bobby Gross
He is sort of the forgotten player on that team…he did so much to compliment the team…talent wise…. he wasn’t at the top of most lists (on paper)…..But out there, with that team, he was invaluable. He would be the type of player I would look for at the 3 (especially if on a fast break team. I don’t have comcast, but I have some old video tapes…That team was a pleasure to watch. Anyway, Gross never complained about not getting shots, but he got everything he needed when they won the championship…and in 77 they had so much fun, beating up on teams, I think they would have played for free. The best “team” ever, that year…. (until Walton got hurt)
Ironically ; the 3 point shot may have never fit the 76-78 team…No one will know for sure…They had several players that could shoot it. Gross and Hollins could …and I would bet on Twardzik….Jack Ramsey was so against the long shot, I doubt they would get the opportunity much ( Ramsey was quoted as saying this about the 3….“why would you reward a team with an extra point for not trying to get the best shot possible” in other words he thought it was detrimental to the game as a team working together….One on one did not exist on that team either…..
That was old school and the game has changed, for sure. However, for that time, Ramsey proved his style was a winner.
by 67 on
Sep 6, 2008 12:51 PM PDT
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