Webster vs. Outlaw, Part 5,632

by Ben Golliver on Sep 30, 2008 10:18 PM PDT

Maxey has a take.

Freeman has a take.

You have a take. Discuss.

At media day, Brandon said it's Martell... so I'm going Martell.

-- Ben (benjamin.golliver@gmail.com)

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Martell.

"the Knicks are an ongoing experiment in sporting altruism, with the motto "We suck, so you don't have to." This is the designing principle. Stop overcomplicating things."
-jawaan oldham

by faith on Sep 30, 2008 11:00 PM PDT reply actions

I see

JB and Martell working well together

by southern oregon on Sep 30, 2008 11:06 PM PDT reply actions

Martell

by NBR on Sep 30, 2008 11:22 PM PDT reply actions

Not that Outlaw couldn’t start, I just see Martell being a better fit with the first unit as he can spread the floor a bit more than Travis – plus Martell can drive to the rim and finish like a beast – Outlaw seems a bit too in love with his midrange jumper.

Not sure where the balance falls defense-wise. Martell is a steadier ‘pressure’ defender whereas Outlaw uses his athleticism to gamble for steals and weak-side blocks. Both can be very effective and both can also be completely unsuitable, depending on the opposing lineup. Nate’s got his work cut out for him, that’s for sure.

by DonkeyShins on Sep 30, 2008 11:31 PM PDT reply actions

That's a good assessment of both players.

Truth be told, thougn, they’re each sixth man material to me.

On the Blazers, small forward is the one position that could use a slight upgrade.

by AK1984 on Oct 1, 2008 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions

Yeah

but young guys may be the slight upgrade, if they upgrade themselves.

And we can live with a decent sixth man being one of our starters if we’ve got three all-stars on the floor at other positions. At that point, it doesn’t matter so much the quality of our SF as how well he fits with our other players. A good fit with a sixth man talent is better than a starter talent that doesn’t fit as well.

That’s why I think Martell will start. Travis may be a better player for us this year, possibly in the long run as well, but I think Martell is a better fit with the starters.

The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.

by jscot on Oct 1, 2008 3:56 AM PDT up reply actions

Upgrade? At what cost?

I continue to disagree with your assessment. As jscot says, both Martell and TO are going to improve. I strongly expect that Martell is going to be the most improved player on the team. Natural maturation, improved conditioning, and better mental approach; Martell seems to be doing everything he needs to do to get better. Combine this with the fact that Oden’s arrival is likely to create a lot more opportunities on the perimeter, and I think Martell is primed for a big step forward.

Regarding your “upgrade” suggestion, every proposal discussed here has one of two flaws:

1) sacrificing the future for the present: people want to trade for someone like Battier, who is already past his prime. These kinds of deals might help us for a couple of years, but they will weaken us for the coming decade. Oden is going to need a season or two to become the dominant figure most of us expect him to become. Why sacrifice the future when our young players have a good chance to become what we need?

2) paying too high a price up-front: getting a real “upgrade” like T Prince is not going to come cheap. We would almost certainly have to give up two rotation players to get somebody like Prince. We need to ask ourselves if it makes sense to give up two young talents to get one player who is 28? One of the strengths of the current roster is that we have enough depth to survive injuries. Trading away a couple of rotation players is going to really hurt our depth and balance. Besides, T Prince, or any other established star in their prime, is going to be far more expensive than Webster and Outlaw.

I think we need to be patient and see how much our young guys have improved.

On the MW vs. TO front, I continue to believe that Martell is a much better fit for the starting five.

by upper left corner on Oct 1, 2008 6:14 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

I agree

The priming is there on Webster….He looks like he may be ready (maturity wise) to make his move…The debate will always continue until one or the other proves some consistency and picks up defensively….Playing within the team concept will go long ways too….Their heads need to be focused in the right frame of mind. (they are not the stars)….
Trades probably won’t happen for a lot of the reasons you suggested….However, the future is still up for grabs…whether, Webster or Outlaw shows they are an effective 1-2 punch, or if we need a more consistent (young) veteran to fill our needs…

by 67 on Oct 1, 2008 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions

There you go again, Ben

You must hate Outlaw. I can hear it in your inflection. ;)

by parkinglotj on Sep 30, 2008 11:37 PM PDT reply actions

That was a joke...

I’d have to agree with DonkeyShins. I just think that Web fits with the starting players and Outlaw will have more freedom to score with unit #2.

by parkinglotj on Sep 30, 2008 11:50 PM PDT up reply actions

Don't you hate that Ben is always

loving him some Trout and hating on the clearly superior Marty?! Or is it the other way around. No matter. Ban him!

*joking…

Perfect practice makes perfect.

by Ojala John on Oct 1, 2008 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions

I love the competition!

If Martell has his head on straight (remember how last year he “got past his mental blocks”, then struggled after a few good games?), the role is his to lose. Like the articles said, Outlaw works great off the bench, and Martell’s outside shooting is desperately needed.

And if he doesn’t provide it (barring Outlaw becoming a “three machine”), Rudy’s value may be that much higher.

by Timmay! on Oct 1, 2008 12:07 AM PDT reply actions

About Rudy.....

I agree that Rudy may be part of the answer. However, I think it is unlikely that he can defend most SFs in the league. In a three guard line-up, I think Roy would have to defend the SF. Rudy, Bayless, and Roy would give us a lot of speed and three guys who can take it to the hole.

What do the rest of you think? How much 3 guard line-up? Which three guards? And, who defends the opposing “3”?

by upper left corner on Oct 1, 2008 6:20 AM PDT up reply actions

There will be "experiments"

this year for sure…this will need to happen, given the new players and new look they will bring to the team….I don’t think they will have it all sorted out for a while…Lots of promising and proven (good) players…..The point guard and 3 look to be the positions they still have the most questions at, so rotating different looks at this will be common. Unless someone flat out takes the job…it may end up being match-ups, game situations, or team continuity that decides.
Other teams will obviously take advantage of match-ups, as well, so what the Blazers do, will always be counteracted upon. Having natural & complete players in these spots would make the coaches job a lot easier….So they will experiment with their players and decide what works the best at getting the results they desire……It may point them towards a future move that could fill any gaps that come to the forefront…..but probably not until next year….

by 67 on Oct 1, 2008 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions

clank

Martell has yet to “spread the floor” ever. In fact the whole concept is redicilous. A guy has to make at least five in a row before the other team notices. That being said we now have a bunch of guys who if left open can make the three on a regular basis. Blake, Outlaw, Roy, Bayless, Rudy , Webster. Heck on a good day perhaps even Aldridge and Fry.

That being said Rudy smokes both Webster and Outlaw in all aspects of the game. All this yappage is designed to keep both of their spirits up while either one comes in to give Rudy a breather.

I mean really people. Last year no one would say that Webster should get more minutes than Outlaw. Now he should be a starter because Roy parrots what the coach says?

Besides it’s not who starts but who finishes and those minutes are the spanish Assassins’ when the other two are finished pouting.

by meatwad3 on Oct 1, 2008 2:01 AM PDT reply actions

See my comment above....

Do you really think Rudy at 6’5", 180 lbs, is capable of guarding most of the starting 3s in the league? That seems ridiculous to me. I think Rudy will be very productive at the 2, but I don’t see him playing many minutes at the 3. If Rudy can’t do the job, do you think it makes sense for Roy to play significant minutes at the 3? Don’t get me wrong, I think the idea of a three guard line-up is very intriguing. But I think it will depend on the match-ups and situations.

Regarding Martell, he made by far the most three’s of any of our returning players. He shot 38% on decent volume. If he can raise his percentage by just a few points, he will be one of the best in the league. Martell has the body and the stroke. If he gets the consistency and the right attitude, and indications are that he is doing all the right things, he could be our starting 3 for years to come.

by upper left corner on Oct 1, 2008 6:35 AM PDT up reply actions

Last year no one would say that Webster should get more minutes than Outlaw.

but he did anyways
Outlaw: 26.7 MPG
Webster: 28.4 MPG

by contemnor on Oct 1, 2008 7:47 AM PDT up reply actions

I don't really care

I just want both players to play hard, bring their A game, and always come with their game face on. I’ll let their play on the court and the coach figure it out.

Blazers Edge has an alarmist vision

by tominhawaii on Oct 1, 2008 4:36 AM PDT reply actions

yes you do tih.

"the Knicks are an ongoing experiment in sporting altruism, with the motto "We suck, so you don't have to." This is the designing principle. Stop overcomplicating things."
-jawaan oldham

by faith on Oct 1, 2008 7:01 AM PDT up reply actions

Nah, it's true

I’m done pitting one player against the other. I’m ready to talk about pitting the Blazers against other teams or a Blazer player against another team’s player. Too many Blazer fans get their jollys off ripping Blazers.

Blazers Edge has an alarmist vision

by tominhawaii on Oct 1, 2008 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

too a guy named shey!!

I LOVE YOU TOM.
(p.s. I’m a guy though does that make me wrong?)

"the Knicks are an ongoing experiment in sporting altruism, with the motto "We suck, so you don't have to." This is the designing principle. Stop overcomplicating things."
-jawaan oldham

by faith on Oct 1, 2008 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions

I love you too, friend.

Blazers Edge has an alarmist vision

by tominhawaii on Oct 1, 2008 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions

I agree with Tom

Let the players sort it out by how they perform.

Personally, I always thought two of the best post season awards to aspire to were 6th Man and Defensive PoY.

This year I’m expecting to see Portland end up with the following:

MVP – Brandon Roy (w/ Oden finishing in the top 5 and Aldridge in top 10)

RoY – Greg Oden (w/ Rudy and Bayless finishing in top 10)

DPoY – not sure we’ll get this one (but Oden & Webster in top 10)

6th Man – Travis Outlaw (w/ Rudy finishing top 10)

Most Impr – Martell Webster (w/ Channing Frye finishing in top 5)

Not quite the sweep I’d hope for, but I figure the Championship trophy at the end of the year will compensate for the dissappointment of not sweeping the post season awards.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Oct 1, 2008 7:26 AM PDT reply actions

Coach of Year - Nate

Exec of Year – KP

Finals MVP – Rudy

by jscot on Oct 1, 2008 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions

I see I still have much to learn.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Oct 2, 2008 7:49 AM PDT up reply actions

And I have much to teach

by jscot on Oct 2, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions

Dave has a Job on the Side?

I like how the article in Hoopsworld mentions a mysterious “Coach Dave” helping Martell.. Who is a Dave around here that we know that has supreme basketball knowledge and an intense desire for all things Blazers?

by MrGrinch on Oct 1, 2008 7:33 AM PDT reply actions

Martell works out in Idaho?

We're young in age, but deep in experience - Brandon Roy.

by Norsktroll on Oct 1, 2008 7:44 AM PDT up reply actions

Why it's Outlaw

Last season Outlaw had a green light on O when in the game. He earned it with heroics during dark days (Memphis) and heady days (Atlanta). This year neither Outlaw nor Webster will be the top one or two options on O with either the starters or the second unit. The team has changed, and too much offensive talent crowds them both out.

If you keep Travis on the second unit, then he’ll keep his head down, keep driving, keep shooting, and the second unit will not gel. Webster on the other hand will be a calming influence for the second unit, a better glue player waiting to spark on the perimeter when other O options break down.

So start Travis at SF where he will learn quickly that he is a role player, he will keep his head up, will look for others, and he’ll play his role. Blake+Roy+Travis can spread the floor almost as well as Blake+Roy+Martell, so no problem there.

On D neither of them are great yet, so whichever one grows defensively will likely see more minutes at SF regardless of whether he starts.

by LucyGoosey on Oct 1, 2008 9:49 AM PDT reply actions

I wanna pick at that on D part.

Martell is/was worlds better on man to man D than travis is/was.

I’ve seen Travis on his man, and boucing in his ankles getting ready to follow his man, only to be caught on one of his up bounces, and get blown right by.

I think if we started travis, the bad guy’s would just attack him until either he got into foul trouble, or until travis got sat for not being able to stay with his man.

Thats why I think Nate always starts Martell, he’s a little more relaxed on Defense and doesn’t tend to “fidget” while he’s waiting to react. imo

but I think you’re right about travis’s offense and how we used him last season.

"the Knicks are an ongoing experiment in sporting altruism, with the motto "We suck, so you don't have to." This is the designing principle. Stop overcomplicating things."
-jawaan oldham

by faith on Oct 1, 2008 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions

<<Do you really think Rudy at 6’5", 180 lbs, is capable of guarding most of the starting 3s in the league? >>

Yes. His one on one defense certainly beats Travis’ attempts to block a shot after he’s been beaten off the dribble or martells one or two chest bumps that hes luckly not to called for a foul for.

In fact its not Rudys offense but his defense that will win him his job.

The kid has a nose for the ball and disrupts the opposing teams offense much like scottie pippen did.

Nate will eventually realize this when he realizes that basketball is just as simple as he once thought it was.

Its all a matter of grabbing that damn ball.

by meatwad3 on Oct 2, 2008 1:55 AM PDT reply actions