The 15th Man
by Dave on Sep 16, 2008 11:44 PM PDT
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PrintI've gotten requests for opinions on various topics the last couple of weeks. The slow season must be getting to people! The one asked most frequently (proving that it IS the slow season) is some variation of "Who is going to fill the 15th roster spot and how much of an impact do you think he'll have?" Usually people will attach the name of their favorite candidate (Steven Hill with a few Luke Jacksons thrown in, and the last couple days a Shaun Livingston or two). So here you go.
How important is the 15th roster spot? EXTREMELY important...to the guy who gets it. Seriously, I would never bag on a guy who fulfills his dream of wearing an NBA uniform and cashing a reasonably-sized check. That's a life-changing experience and something to be proud of. Plus it's a matter of Portland pride for Blazer fans to love every player who comes their way and doesn't blow it. We have a soft spot in our hearts for the more obscure guys from Blazer history. It'll be no different with whoever suits up this year. All-Star or practice player, that's a Blazer. Any of us would give our right arm to put on that uniform for a day, let alone a season. Much respect to the guys who earn that right.
That said, and with all due respect for the work these guys are putting in, the odds are long against any of our non-signed players making any difference at all this season, or any season for that matter. Take Steven Hill. He's a nice guy, he works hard, he blocked a few shots in Summer League. It wouldn't break my heart to see him rewarded with a spot on the team. But let's take a long, hard look at the depth chart at center for the Blazers...not just on paper, but in real-life game terms:
Greg Oden
Joel Przybilla
Lamarcus Aldridge
Channing Frye
Raef LaFrentz
Steven Hill
To be fair, let's do the same for Luke Jackson at small forward:
Martell Webster
Travis Outlaw
Brandon Roy or Rudy Fernandez
The other one of those last two
Luke Jackson
Nicolas Batum
It's hard to project an impact for a player who, providing anything is at stake in the game, is going to be the fifth or sixth choice at their position. A lot of things have to go wrong in order for them to see the floor. Put another way, you don't want to get too excited about any player whose insertion into a non-blowout game will elicit a mandatory "Oh crap, we have to play..." before their name.
Shaun Livingston is a slightly different case, having played at a reasonable level before his injury and having borne great expectations before his injury. You could see some team taking a lottery-like flyer on him just in case. Nevertheless name me the last young player, a solid lottery pick, whose team was incredibly high on him but later threw him on the junk heap because of injury who actually came back to fulfill those high expectations with another team. I'm hard pressed to think of any. Maybe Livingston will buck that trend. I wouldn't necessarily pin hopes on it though. The Clippers had huge stars in their eyes over the guy once upon a time. The fact that he's not a Clipper anymore says something. The fact that he's having to struggle just to find a spot on anybody's team says more.
Basically the smart move is to be happy for whoever gets that spot or to be equally happy if the Blazers carry fourteen guys to preserve some trade flexibility. Either way it goes, it's unlikely to have a huge impact. I never say never...strange things happen sometimes. But you'll go crazy trying to predict them, let alone bank on them.
The long and short of it is: the top of the Blazer roster so outweighs the lower bench as to make the 12-15 spots less significant than they've been in years. That's not a bad thing. It means we're becoming a good team again.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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The more I think about it
the more I like Jackson, he’s been healthy for almost 2 years now and I’ve heard he is knocking down the three. He’s a veteran, he wants it bad, and his ceiling is high with little risk.
Plus if he were to play up to near where he was projected to play when he was drafted it would make the blow of trading either Webster or Outlaw a little easier.
With all of that being said I wouldnt lose any sleep if Hill was the 15th man, infact I would grow out my beard and buy his jersey if he were signed.
At one point I was real intrigued with the prospects of signing Livingston, however having him sitting on the bench for a year while trying to get healthy at a position where we already have my pick for PG in Blake, Ben’s pick in PG in Bayless and DubbK’s pick in Sergio and PK in Europe, over Hill and Jackson doesnt make sense to me.
in a nut shell my order is 1 Jackson, 2 Hill, then 3 Livingston
The pictures kinda small, but Im giving the C's a big thumbs down
by Blazermaniac77 on Sep 17, 2008 12:05 AM PDT reply actions
Knocking down the three:
from Casey Holdhahl:
“Luke has said that he’s working on perfecting what he does best, which is shooting the deep ball. If he wants to make the roster based on that skill, he needs to continue to improve. He’s not to the point where he’s automatic from three when he’s open, and for a guy trying to claw back into the league, he has to be. He’s nothing if not steady, but you’ve got to have that little something extra to make this roster.”
I don't entirely buy your logic re/ Hill
I think that, should the Blazers elect to sign him, he could well end up playing quite a bit. Why?
First, Raef is already out for at least the bulk of this season, so cross him off that depth chart. Second, LMA, Frye, and LaFrenz are all forwards who played out of position at back-up center last season. Reportedly, Nate had, early on, requested some help up front, but KP told him he needed to make do with what he had. So those three players had to suck it up and battle bigger, stronger guys in the post when Joel wasn’t in there. None exactly excelled in the role, and having to log minutes at center kept LMA and Frye from focusing on the development of those skills they’d need at forward. Poor Frye: one minute the team was telling him to slim down, the next moment they wanted him to bulk up!
This season, of course, Oden wlll presumably start at center and Joel will back him up. So in theory, even if LMA and Frye didn’t play a minute in the post, Hill would remain plastered to the bench. But in reality, I doubt it would work that way. Oden might have a better feel for the league than the average rookie center, but we can still expect him to get in foul trouble on a regular basis, particularly early on. And Joel, like all shotlbockers, also tends to pick up fouls in bunches. Then there’s injuries: Oden just missed a full season with a knee injury, and the season before last Joel was practically a non-factor due to injuries.
SO: not to jinx our post guys, but there’s a strong likelihood that due to some combination of foul trouble and injuries there will be plenty of minutes for the team’s third-string center this season. And if Hill were to play effectively during the minutes he was given early on, he’d likely end up playing a good portion of those minutes. Nate has plans for LMA and Frye this season; he’ll only play them at center if he has absolutely no choice.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Nope
In a tight game, you think we’d see a 4/5 combo of LMA/Hill or Frye/Hill rather than Frye/LMA? Not a chance. In a tight game, it would be Channing and LaMarcus all the way.
If Hill makes the team, it will be as a human victory cigar.
The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.
Correct
While Aldridge, Frye or Diogu could play center minutes in a small lineup, the goal heading into the season is not to rely on any of them to be the primary backup center for any piece of the season
Raef was the emergency center. That’s like having a 3rd catcher in baseball. When your #1 is out and your #2 gets into foul trouble and you’re facing Yao Ming (etc) you don’t want to have to play a PF out of position
Not every contingency can be accounted for, but the need to “replace” LaFrentz on the 15-man roster sticks out like a sore thumb. If not for Steven Hill, KP would be looking for another big body to add to training camp right now, for practice and for “emergency situations” The good news is, KP doesn’t have to go fishing for that backup center, because he’s already got Hill who is acclimated with Portland’s system and coaches and is ready to go
I'm tempted to agree with you hurryup
but in reality Hill is not really bigger than Frye (7-0 245 vs. 6-11 248) so could he really handle big centers any better than Frye? And the lack of offense would be a big downside. So yeah, Frye would play center over Hill in most cases.
"You always know what you're going to get with Steven Hill. He's going to block shots, get rebounds and avoid shooting like the plague." - Casey Holdahl, Trail Blazers Center Court
Steven Hill ...
is a vastly superior man-to-man interior defender than Channing Frye, who honestly should never see any playing time at the pivot due to his mediocre defense and inability to score down on the low block.
When did you see Steven Hill play?
I’m not hating, just asking if it is more than just summer league.
"Sometimes GSoM can be the WWE of basketball!" - Tony.psd
Last season, I watched Steven Hill ...
player for Arkansas during the NCAA Tournament.
Despite Hill being a reserve, he was the only Razorback who could contain the likes of D.J. White and Tyler Hansbrough. Hill forced Hoosier Eric Gordon to unsucessfully chuck tons of outside shots, too, although against the Tar Heels Danny Green and Wayne Ellington were mammoth zone busters.
That's my take as well
As the saying goes, “size isn’t everything.” Frye is a versatile and talented player. But he’s no banger; Hill is. Against teams with physical centers, I think we’d be more likely to see Hill coming off the bench at center than Frye or LMA—who are better utilized doing what they do best: playing forward. That’s assuming KP decides to surrender flexibility by using up that last roster spot.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Did you see the scouting reports?
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA-Scouting-Reports,-Northwest-Division—Part-Three—3003/
“Frye: Defense: Has the size, length and athleticism to be effective at times, but lacks the strength or toughness to live up to his potential on this end. Will get pushed around by bigger players on a regular basis and usually doesn’t offer much resistance. Has a hard time holding position.”
“Where Hill has excelled is defense. His length and anticipation make him a great shot blocker, having averaged nearly three a game in each of his last two seasons. He does a fairly good job at staying on his feet, and holds his position well.”
If you think that only “size” matters, then Buck Williams wouldn’t have made it as a defensive PF
Unless Shaun, the best choice is "nobody"!
Why?
- Flexibility. We never know when a trade could come. And it’s very feasible that a team will want to get cap space, so they’ll take Raef, and give us the player we want, and a player we don’t want. Without that empty spot, that may be a dealbreaker (there’s ways around that, including trading the 15th man too, but the more complicated it is, the better the chance of problems).
- Availability. If an emergency comes up and the spot is still open, it’s very possible Jackson and Hill will be plenty available for a contract later (10-day or otherwise). That way we don’t sign one, then realize we need the other. Sure, a non-guaranteed contract would cover that, but there’s no real need.
- Availability, part 2. Let’s be quite honest: If Jackson and Hill are not available (another NBA or overseas team picks them up), there will be a similar quality talent available. If either of them were that valued in the NBA, they wouldn’t be working for that 15th spot, which won’t get playing time. Nothing personal against them, that’s just how the NBA works. (And overseas for that matter)
If Portland’s doctors say Shaun is worth the risk, grab him! Otherwise, leave it open. It’ll be a nice change to our flexibility.
One exception: If a player WOWS coaches and management during preseason (a la Ime Udoka). If the team says they deserve it, go for it.
In all likelihood, Steven Hill and Luke Jackson ...
are signed to one-year, non-guaranteed minimum-level contracts; thus, one of them can make the roster sans too much financial obligation, since they could be released at any point prior to 1/10/2009 without being owed an entire season’s worth of salary.
Exactly
this “roster flexibility” thing isn’t valid. Blazers can waive the guy at any time and make the trade.
"You always know what you're going to get with Steven Hill. He's going to block shots, get rebounds and avoid shooting like the plague." - Casey Holdahl, Trail Blazers Center Court
yes, however
Greg Oden – coming off injury
Joel Przybilla – coming off injury
Lamarcus Aldridge
Channing Frye – injured
Raef LaFrentz – injured
Steven Hill – looks like a better prospect when you look at it that way…
I have my P.h.D in unreliable hyperbole.
by Eat Politicians on Sep 17, 2008 2:22 AM PDT reply actions
I would also add
He did more than “block a few shots” in summer league…and we are talking about two position, center and power forward, versus one position – small forward…
I have my P.h.D in unreliable hyperbole.
by Eat Politicians on Sep 17, 2008 2:25 AM PDT up reply actions
practice
With Raef out and Channing on the injured list to start the season the Blazers will need Steven Hill just to have enough big men to practice. i believe that was the reason KP invited Hill to Portland in the first place, he need a big body to practice against Oden. Joel is a warrior, but i don’t think even he’ll be able to stay healthy if he is the only one going up against Oden in practice all year. Luke Jackson would be a nice story, Livingston has the most upside of the three, but Hill is the only player the Blazers actually need
by Uncle Cliffy on Sep 17, 2008 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd like to wear the uniform for a day
No question about it. But I am rather partial to my right arm, too.
The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.
Assuming I'm male....
The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.
though, if female, there could be a left testicle out there you'd be partial to
Free Joel Freeland! (with the purchase of 1 Wafer)
That is a huge assumption!
Lets get back on topic folks.
"Sometimes GSoM can be the WWE of basketball!" - Tony.psd
LOL
I like my left arm, too. Is that better?
The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.
sorry
(in no way implying jscot has a thing for it, but that I myself do …)
I also have a thing for a stop-gap player should the injury demons burn us again …
No-wammy, No-wammy, No-wammy, big money, No-wammy … Stop!
http://www.myspace.com/y5k
Thanks for clarifying
The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.
Please no Livingston.
I don’t want to be constantly reminded of his injury every time I watch a Blazer game.
Maybe thinking about the rave he got before the draft helps to put that thought aside
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/draft/2004-point-guards.htm
Scroll down to Livingston, and be amazed:
COMPARATIVE UPSIDE: Magic Johnson COMPARATIVE DOWNSIDE: Jalen Rose
ROLE PROJECTION: Starter, future Hall of Famer
POSITIVES: Any team that passes up Livingston for a more polished pearl will not be able to live it down seven years from now. By then, at only 25, Livingston will be able to dominate a NBA game without scoring a single point and eventually will go down as one of the greatest playmakers in NBA history
Okay, the hype was way too much. But I rarely have seen such a positive prediction for any draft pick by any serious publication. Today, I would say his upside if he returns to 90-95% health is more like “A less-skilled Jason Kidd with more length”, but that would still be a future starter for the Blazers. In his last season, he basically had Blake’s numbers.
St. Bayno's 120 Haiku Prospects: Nicolas Batum in the paint—prairie grass, blown by wind.
Making Amends
I’ll amend a comment I made on a previous thread regarding Joel and Hill. Sorry, I forget who, but one poster was arguing that Joel is too expensive to carry as a backup and will be traded to alleviate luxury cap. I didn’t see it that way, but… I can see Hill becoming nearly as good as Joel in a reasonably short time and that would free Joel up as trade bait. Certainly there will be teams Joel could start for and be part of a significant deal.
Perhaps Hill will be kept as 15th to develop him as the eventual backup to Oden.
Free Joel Freeland! (with the purchase of 1 Wafer)
I'm not for trading Joel, but if that happens isn't a player like Hill available almost every year (draft, free agency)?
Don’t get me wrong, he works hard and has a good combination of size and athleticism (vertical). Which makes him a good defender (rebounding, shot blocking). But offensively, his game is very limited, almost no face to the basket plays, very mediocre free throw shooter. He makes most of his points off put-backs and inside dunks. On a positive note, he would be inexpensive which a mediocre 15th man should be. But the discrepancy between having Oden in the game and Hill in the game would be big, so trading away Joel would have an impact.
If it still happens, e.g. the Blazers have Joel Freeland stashed in Europe, who is a natural PF since he is a little smaller and lighter, but has more potential than Hill IMHO and could be brought over next year (buyout) if need be. And he is two years younger. If it’s not Freeland, we could acquire another big man to back up Oden fairly easily next year who might be only slightly worse or even better than Joel, but far better than Hill.
Just quickly looking at 2009, unrestricted free agents e.g. include Ilgauskas, Pachulia, Nesterovic, Stromile Swift, Chris Wilcox, Adonal Foyle. Maybe Boozer, Okur, Varejao (ETO/Player Option). Also a few restricted guys might be interesting, e.g. Johan Petro. I also like Andray Blatche (that would have to be a trade though). Of course some of these guys will be expensive to very expensive, but if Joel would be traded this season finding a really good backup to Oden would be a high priority for the next off-season.
St. Bayno's 120 Haiku Prospects: Nicolas Batum in the paint—prairie grass, blown by wind.
Yeah, I agree with you
Your points are well taken though I don’t think 7 footers as cheap and athletic as Hill are quite as easy to find as you suggest (being either not cheap or not athletic) we are, after all, talking about a backup so how good do they have to be?
I’m playing devil’s advocate as to what plans they could conceivably have for Hill. Since the 15th is a bit of a throw away (as Dave argues) then having any plan for a player in that position would be remarkable. Plus there’s the “bird in the hand v. two in the bush” and all that.
I’m still thinking Joel’s here for the long haul and don’t really care much what happens with the 15h.
Free Joel Freeland! (with the purchase of 1 Wafer)
I disagree that the 15th spot is a throwaway
Because other spots are often being held by guys that teams have no desire to actually play (e.g., Raef LaFrenz & Darius Miles last season—and possibly Batum this year), the 15th guy is often actually #12 or #13 in the rotation. One injury and he’s right in the mix.
Having said that, I don’t see Hill—or anyone else—as a replacement for Joel. Joel is an ideal backup center and practice foil for young GO. But particularly for this season, when GO’s knee is still untested and he’s sure to be prone to rookie foul trouble—a third center would be valuable. Making Frye & LMA play out of position at the 1 isn’t desirable, in my opinion.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
This is the interesting thing about our cap space
No one thinks we’ll be going for any of those guys. But if KP makes a trade, then we might be.
There are about 50 bazillion possible scenarios.
The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.
That would be
the rationale probably. Do we have a guy who might someday develop into a serviceable player? The impact there would be well down the road. To me that’s the kind of 15th man you want, though. Position doesn’t matter. The way the team is constructed doesn’t matter. The guy’s potential is all that matters. In a way it’s like drafting deep into the second round. If you start talking drafting for need at that point everyone will start laughing at you. You’re just looking for a warm body who might play someday.
—Dave
Well ...
I have to agree, to a degree …
We have potential coming out our ears. What we might need right now is a stop-gap player — be it a 5 or a 3. If we don’t like him, we send him packing when our need is better met. Kinda like a rental car while yer normal ride is in the shop. If it gets dinged up or it doesn’t have the bells-and-whistles you like, or you don’t really use it, big deal.
A one-year, easy-to-trade, team-option contract is the way to go.
http://www.myspace.com/y5k
Take Hill
I choose Hill. Assuming, of course, that what I’m hearing – that he’s better than some of the existing back up centers in the league – is true. LaFrentz will be gone – we know that. We also know that even though Frye/Aldridge can step into center to help – that they are both finally focussing their full work-out/play regimen on being PF’s – their best postion. Further, Outlaw can always fill in at that spot in a pinch. Further, we have plenty of options at the guards and SF, not forgetting Batum. An injury at Center, however, such as we had last year, and will almost certainly happen again, disrupts the team. And, when you have a shot blocking, rebounding, lower level Pryz clone on the payroll for the minimum – you can avoid the disruption. Hill is an insurance player at a position where insurance players are important.
Anyhow, my gut says take Hill.
That's what I was trying to say
…but you said it better.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
It's Hill hands down
Let’s face it, nobody but Hill has what it takes to go toe to toe with Oden every day in pratice. Joel is going to be far too valuable to the team this year to even think about him taking that kind of beating every day.
2-4 the who
It is simple
It has to be Hill.
Luke Jackson is a feel good story because he’s local, but he’s not needed. His best chance of making the roster is to replace the three point shooting of James Jones.
From Casey Holdahl’s Center Court blog, that does not seem likely.
Luke has said that he’s working on perfecting what he does best, which is shooting the deep ball. If he wants to make the roster based on that skill, he needs to continue to improve. He’s not to the point where he’s automatic from three when he’s open, and for a guy trying to claw back into the league, he has to be.
Shaun Livingston = Eight Bells We all know what happened to her.
Regarding Steve Hill, from Casey Holdahl’s Center Court blog:
The thing with a guy like Steven is that he’s already better than other big men who are under contract in the league. He’s better than Jamaal Magloire. He’s better than Jerome James. I’m sure there are others.
I take that to mean that he’s also better than Raef LaFrentz, and we know he’s only on the roster for his contract. Hill makes the most sense because he’s another body to practice with Oden and if the Blazers lock him up in a cheap contract, it is one more player available for use in a trade. He’s also a “serviceable big man” to be the third string center.
"Sometimes GSoM can be the WWE of basketball!" - Tony.psd
Dang I posted that to soon while I was grabbing links
I also wanted to say that if Livingston can’t even get signed by the Celtic (Just in case you don’t keep up with that team, they signed a guy who was designated by an independant doctor to have a career ending injury), then why would the Blazers sign him?
"Sometimes GSoM can be the WWE of basketball!" - Tony.psd
Hmm...
That’s pretty dang near a “toughness post” from TIH. Stop copying me, dang it!
Seriously, if you look at the teams that made it past the first round of the playoffs last year (or any year), they all had tough bigs coming off the bench in waves. The Blazers had…Raef & Channing. Hill—in combo with Diogu—might close that “toughness gap.”
Plus, of course, there’s a tough guy named Greg Oden starting at center this season, moving the Blazers’ lone battler from last year, Przy, to the second unit. No more getting shoved around by the bullies of the league: I like it!
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
DAVE
“Nevertheless name me the last young player, a solid lottery pick, whose team was incredibly high on him but later threw him on the junk heap because of injury who actually came back to fulfill those high expectations with another team. I’m hard pressed to think of any. Maybe Livingston will buck that trend.” -Dave
Hey Dave, maybe Miles will buck that trend before Livingston! NO! I take it back! Don’t block me from the site!?!
Both Teams Played Hard
Both Teams Played Hard
Both Teams Played Hard
leave it open
although if i’m taking 1 of the 3, i think hill has the best chance to be a long term asset for trades.
if we are still asset-collecting, a defensive-minded backup center is much more desirable than an oft-injured, unathletic wing or a 1 legged point guard.
i don’t think any of these guys would sniff the active roster unless our injury bug turns into a full fledged virus.
although for the novelty factor livingston is dead even with hill. if he comes back, somebody call warner brothers to make the biopic.
BRANDON ROY GET WELL SOON
Though I understand
that Ime Udoka would find himself farther down the depth chart if he was still on the team today (the current roster is much more talented than the one he played for), let’s not forget what a dynamic presence he was for the team.
If it wasn’t for him, KP wouldn’t likely have this ‘open roster spot’ theory ingrained in his head. We seem to have short memories.
I'm an Ime fan
But I think it was much later (after Ime made that Blazer team in training camp) that KP became a fan of keeping a roster spot open. I think that came maybe 20 games into last season when the Blazers hadn’t won a road game. Nate reportedly asked KP for help—particularly a tough guy or two—and KP said his hands were tied and Nate would have to make do with what he had. At that point, Nate held a team meeting and told his players that no help was coming so they had to tough it out. Soon after, the team went on that 13-game winning streak.
Despite that streak, I think KP had absorbed a lesson: it’s extremely valuable to have a roster spot open entering the season. That way if someone goes down or fails to perform as expected, you have the flexibility needed to do something about it.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Whomever takes the fifteenth spot....
will in all likelihood be a human victory cigar….the one who only lays after the chalupa has been earned…….and has no problem with being on the injured list with the ever popular “tendonitis” for long periods of time.
The future
I think that Joel’s eventual replacement is something that it’s not too early to think about. Which is why I like picking up Hill. Sure we’ll have other opportunities to pick up a back-up center along the way, but if we have a chance to lock up that need now, I can’t see of any better use for that 15th spot.
2 out of 3?
I think we should try to hang on to both Hill and Livingston. We all know Livingston’s not going to be a Hall of Famer (wow that was a lot of pressure, huh?) but it is certainly worth giving him a shot in training camp and see how he plays. Keeping Hill is important also. If he can push the big fella in practice then he can certainly hang in there as a 2nd or 3rd center. He’s an insurance policy most teams would love to have.
Not gonna work
The Blazers already have 14 guaranteed contracts, there is no way to keep both of them, unless you would dump someone else, and who would that be?
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people
by blazersfan50 on Sep 17, 2008 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions
woah...seriously?
has nobody mentioned grant hill? yeah it took him a while to get back after his huge injury but now he’s producing as a role player for phoenix. I dont think its realistic to expect livingston to do the same-but he wont be the first.
he’d be the first to do it with that gruesome injury though!
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