Rudy OR Bayless
by blazerholic5 on Aug 26, 2008 8:17 PM PDT
76 comments
who will have the better rookie year?
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iit better be bayless,
seriosly this dude wil be better ,no joke
he will be amazing
rudy had 1 great game but i dont see that greatness in him,
but bayless has it ,JB FOR ROY,NEXT TO ODEN
by blazerholic5 on Aug 26, 2008 8:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
easy question...
if rudy developes into the player i think he can………..bayless will eventually want to leave to find more minutes…..
thats how much i like rudy……..
Here’s to a championship Rudy Roy backcourt……
represent
by BroyTheTruth on Aug 26, 2008 8:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
ugh, this is actually a tough one.
On the one hand, the first thing I thought of was Nate and the defense-first mentality he has, and that should be Bayless hands down.
But on the other, Rudy can straight game. It was his most important game of the year and coming off the bench for the first time in the SECOND quarter (means he sat cold for at least 15 minutes!) to then come in the game and throw daggers to the tune of 22 points on 13 shots, all in 17 minutes. GAMER.
I think that Bayless will most definitely leave a positve imprint on this team in his rookie year, but I believe that Rudy will outdo him this year.
"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car"
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Aug 26, 2008 9:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed easy question
Bayless looked dominate against summer league players, but he also looked selfish (maybe that he didnt have any one to pass to). Rudy looked good playing against the best in the world. Also Rudy looks like he can be effective with out getting a ton of touches unlike bayless. Lastly I believe that Rudy will get more minutes, because he will be able to do more with them. Rudy will play in the fourth quarter with roy.
by ifarr on Aug 26, 2008 9:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Simple
Bayless backs up for Blake, and Nandez backs up Roy. Bayless has better year if your looking at stats. Rudy should get the blazers 6-7 pts a night off the bench, and bayless should get 8-9. With that being said, I think there will be nights that Rudy goes off like a mad man and scores 12-15pts in 1 Qtr of play.
by bad karma on Aug 26, 2008 9:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
no way,
if rudy doesnt score 8-10 points i will…..um..bann myself for … a…week.
But really, they have both dominated this summer, probably rudy’s stage was harder in the olympics, but bayless dominated more. Though, it will be hard for him to get a lot of time behind roy, but if he is that good they will find a way. THough, i am very swayable, and i watched rudy more recently.
by raging WebTed on Aug 26, 2008 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm in the T-Rex camp
His ability to defend the PG’s will give him an advantage to get on the court more often.
Plus, if Blake has any injuries, what is the choice? Roy? No, it would have to go to Bayless. If Roy were to get injured, I believe Webster would get the start at big guard, not Rudy. I think Rudy will come off the bench all year.
I love Rudy, but I think that Bayless will be slightly better.
by parkinglotj on Aug 26, 2008 9:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it depends on how deep in the season the injury happens
but I think that were Roy to go down, it would be Rudy who would come in and make the start. Rudy/Blake in the backcourt to start, and Bayless coming off the bench, each playing big minutes.
"Jerryd is straight ahead at you. Rudy dips around. Jerryd is a rock. Rudy is the wind. Jerryd loves the ball in his hands. Rudy moves without it. Jerryd defends by getting up in your grill. Rudy plays the spaces in between. Jerryd has focused vision. Rudy sees all around him. Jerryd likes to score off of the dribble. Rudy can catch and shoot. Jerryd is aggressive. Rudy is sneaky. Jerryd will hit you hard. Rudy will annoy you until you hit him." -Dave
Word.
by joelor on Aug 27, 2008 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Long run bayless, first year Rudy
bayless is way younger than rudy and will be the #1 pg if he can step up, and has an oprotunity to play more, and grow and surpass rudy. He will be the future pg because i have yet to see him in a game where he has had someone to pass to. While rudy has more experience, and should be able to adapt. But hopefully they will be equals, and be the new Tony Parker, and Manu ginobli…
by raging WebTed on Aug 26, 2008 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ted
I have no problem admitting when your wrong, and this is one of those times….lol
by bad karma on Aug 26, 2008 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's right
Rudy is more NBA ready than Bayless.
In the long run, because Bayless is a better fit with Brandon, he’ll be more important to us. Rudy might be a phenomenal wild card who can come in and hurt you very badly, but he’s likely to always be behind Roy.
Long run Bayless, first year Rudy.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
by jscot on Aug 27, 2008 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the long run...JB
Either Roy or Rudy will have to leave PDX, because they both play the 2 and really neither one of them can slide to the 1 or the 3 for extended minutes.
Rudy will chafe like Petrovic backing up Clyde. Drazen had to go to NJ to get starter’s minutes
by two4larue on Aug 27, 2008 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rudy in the backcourt with Roy!
Rudy is ready to go!
Bayless has yet to prove he can pass the ball and create offense for others.. Until then, we know he’ll be good for getting to the line and defending his man… that’s it.
by sagebru5h on Aug 26, 2008 9:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thats my concern with Bayless as well.
Don’t get me wrong, I really like Bayless, but he really didn’t show any ability to create offense for others. I like him as more of a 2nd unit scoring punch than a pg next to Roy. Don’t forget how awful he looked in that game where he started at point, it was horrendous at best. I think Rudy could be the better fit in the with the big 3 because of his high energy play off the ball. I am not convinced that a Blake/Bayless, Roy, and Rudy lineup won’t be used. I think there is a good chance that both of these guys could play next to Roy, LMA, and Oden in the long run. But for now, I think they have to get Rudy in the game with the big 3 because he is so good at playing off the ball, and he brings such a high level of energy that no other blazer really has. Plus, Rudy has an exceptional lob pass when it isn’t Marc or Pau Gasol trying to catch it. I could honestly see 2 or 3 of those a game between him and Oden if they get much time on the floor together. Oden is going to like playing with people that can spoon feed him dunks, and I think Rudy can do that, plus a whole lot more…..
RUDY > MJ
by myemic23 on Aug 26, 2008 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It'll be a little Rudy, and a little Roy.........
Rudy has definately shown me enough to prove he can play the point ( watch him in any 4th quarter these olympics, he’s the primary ballhandler). Roy will share it with him though because Rudy works best without the ball, and i’d like to see Rudy run around more than Roy. It’s more his style. That’s why our offense will be so potent in the 4th. With Roy facilitating, Rudy creating havoc, Outlaw stepping up big, and Aldridge creating mismatches, to top it off with Oden being Oden….I’m optimistic we could win it all this year. It would take a lot of things going our way, but we will be deadly in fourth quarters. Our youth is not to our disadvantage, only because Roy plays with the poise of a veteran.
by BroyTheTruth on Aug 26, 2008 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm...
I could be wrong, but wasn’t there a game in the olyimpics that Rudy scored 3 pts? Rudy will be great, sometimes, but in the fourth it will be Bayless and Roy 4 sure. Rudy is way to up and down, plus his D is suspect. I think J Bay is more of a “Nate” type player, but who knows, maybe Rudy is as good as some of you guys think. Heck, why don’t we go with a 5 guard starting line up. Sergio at point facilitating, Bayless creating havoc, Blake stepping up big, and Rudy creating mismatches, and to top it off with Roy being Roy…..
by bad karma on Aug 26, 2008 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Position could decide this one
Bayless probably has more minutes waiting for him.
by everett on Aug 26, 2008 9:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
pretty tough call
both look ready to contribute- both are versatile players who can play multiple positions (at least on offense). Rudy is older and has played better competition, but ultimately it will come down to who figures out the NBA game faster.
I voted for Rudy, but its a great poll question.
Boomshakalaka
by jksnake99 on Aug 26, 2008 9:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why, may I ask, can't we just hope both of them will have a great season?
After all they are both Blazers – right?
LMA>LA!
LMA's reign as "LaMonster of the Low Post" has just begun!
by LaMarvelous on Aug 26, 2008 10:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I think people overlook the fact that on the face of it they are the back court tandem in the White unit as things currently stand. Unless/until Bayless is upgraded to starter Rudy and Bayless will flourish together not one or the other but both!
He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants
by Idog1976 on Aug 27, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really hard call.
They both bring the same thing, but in different ways if that makes sense. Coming into this year I say Rudy definitely has the advantage. He is more NBA ready for the position he is going to play.
As nice as Bayless looked he is not ready to be a PG in the purest sense of the word in the NBA. I hope with his work ethic he can develop into one, however even if he stays the same he’s a good fit next to Roy…
Remember Rudy is not coming in as the same type of rookie as Rex. Rudy has played professional ball for longer than most of our team in the 2 best leagues outside of the NBA and has won many awards for his play. This is why I think I have to go with Rudy. It’s not that he’s better than Rex indefinitely, I just think all of the experience will help. Often times Euros have as hard or harder of a time adjusting than college players do but just looking at their skill sets Rudy is much more ready at this point. Bayless will be playing PG and even with Roy he needs to learn how to keep his head up and work on court vision and passes. The only way I see Bayless beating Rudy in his rookie year is if Bayless plays good and consistent, while Rudy sometimes plays great and sometimes disappears.
I hope they both do well though and can both find a long term spot on this team.
by Bskey on Aug 26, 2008 10:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think neither will garner enough minutes to be a ROY
Both project to be very good players with different skill sets at the guard position worthy of accompanying Roy in the Blazer backcourt. Early on in the season, I’d expect Rudy to get more minutes than Bayless, but by end of the year both will have comparable minutes and pts. per game. The difference will be in how those points are achieved- at the line/drive (Bayless) or by drives and three balls(Rudy). Both roles are needed and which is on the court will depend on match-ups. We will be one of the hardest teams to defend next year because we can create so many match-up nightmares for other teams defensively while not limiting our defense. That all being said, Oden will have better stats than both of them. Who cares which blazer is the biggest contributor as long as our point total exceeds out opponents, I’ll still be happy. Go Blazers!
by NWfan on Aug 26, 2008 10:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Had to go with Jerryd
Rudy is a stud, but his style is soooo not Nate, whereas Bayless has a style that Nate loves. And Rudy’s assignment will be backing up our best player, our go-to guy and the unquestioned leader of the team. I don’t think Nate will intentionally stifle Rudy, but I have a feeling that he will give more minutes to Jerryd because he can step in at point. I love both players but I believe that Jerryd will have the better year.
Comments above that Bayless is more selfish are ridiculous. Both can pass the ball, Bayless just had no one who could catch the ball, and he was told to score. I saw Rudy take a lot of questionable shots that could be called “selfish”.
by koyote on Aug 26, 2008 11:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
you mean the ones he knocked down with confidence?
by BroyTheTruth on Aug 27, 2008 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you watch all the games?
Even in the final he threw a couple of ugly shots up, and no, they were not knocked down.
by koyote on Aug 27, 2008 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bayless CAN pass!
I too am tired of hearing that remark Bayless had just over 4 apg in college and that was with him as the the first or secondary scorer on his team. He had no shooter, driver, low post finisher to pass to in Summer League it is as simple as that.
He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants
by Idog1976 on Aug 27, 2008 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
bayless
you can say what you want about not being able to create opps for others but several times he got into jams and usually had enough awareness to get the ball to someone if he absolutely couldnt make the shot himself. i think he just prefers to take care of business himself but that will change if means starting.
by riccc_l on Aug 27, 2008 12:14 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
When I imagine all these grat players improving and giving their best to earn playing time I start salivating.
The Midnight Rambler
by amlmart1 on Aug 27, 2008 2:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
AMAZING
how is it possible you can compare Rudy and Bayless. Rudy has been playing 6 year into the highest level, Rudy has been the absolute leader of one of the best teams in europe for 3 years, Rudy can create plays for himself and others, he can shoot in front of his defender, he is an world champion and silver olympic medallist, he is ready to lift his team whenever his team needs, he is everywhere.
To be honest I don’t understand some of you.
by cbp on Aug 27, 2008 3:45 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Trying to shed some light
First of all, I’m high on Rudy right now for the very reasons you mentioned. But Bayless probably won’t be no scrub either. Don’t know how closely you have followed him and this year’s draft, but here are a few reasons people are high on him too:
- He was widely considered one of the top 5 players in this year’s draft, and the Blazers managed to get him much later at #11 via a trade with Indiana after he dropped. So we probably have to pay him much less than he is worth, and shouldn’t even been able to get him if everything goes normal (which is also true for Rudy).
- He basically is a replacement and upgrade over Jarrett Jack (part of the trade to Indiana), a guy who got a lot of playing time last year on the PG position, so he fills a real need / void, whereas Rudy will be the #2 SG behind Brandon Roy and thus his position on the team (and how he gets many minutes on the floor) is somewhat less clear
- He showed some great performances in Vegas Summer League, winning MVP honors. While this can mean all or nothing since some guys who did this before him have gone on to unimpressive seasons, he showed really good signs especially attacking the basket.
- At 20 he is still very young, so his potential might be much higher than what he currently can do. Some people see him as a future Gilbert Arenas or Monta Ellis with better point guard skills.
If you haven’t done so already, you might also want to read Dave’s analysis and the comments in these articles (mind the time when they were written, but most statements should hold true)
http://www.blazersedge.com/2008/8/21/598132/rudy-vs-jerryd
http://www.blazersedge.com/2008/8/1/584370/bayless-and-fernandez
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
by Norsktroll on Aug 27, 2008 4:45 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nicely done
Dave has addressed this issue in the links above, and Norsktroll provides a good summary of other solid points. Simply put, Bayless will have more opportunity because he can guard PGs and spend more time next to Roy. The only way Rudy can play next to Roy is if (a) Rudy can guard PGs (which he probably can’t), or (b) Roy can guard SFs (which he can, but do you want him taking that physical abuse for long stretches?).
Either way, it’s not a competition. Rudy will probably be in the game anytime Roy is on the bench, and hopefully they’ll be able to play some together, as well – but it could well be with Bayless in the game at point. Can’t wait until the first time I see Bayless-Rudy-Roy-LMA-Oden trot out there together. Murderer’s row.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Aug 27, 2008 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks Norsktroll
to be honest I’ve never heard of Bayless but as he was 11th pick and I consider Rudy into the average top five picks of last years I take Rudy.
On the other hand I read those links and I tend to agree to Dave when he talked of Rudy. Rudy is a clear shooting guard or 2. He never played in Spain as point guard although from tme to time he can drive the ball. If he gets minutes will be playing as 2 so he needs to take Brandon Roy’s minutes. There will not be directly competition between both of them (Rudy and Bayless) unless Rudy fails to deliver his job which I think will be harder to Bayless.
I don’t think the adjustment to play NBA will be so tough to Rudy because he is used to pressure but I do think it’ll be tougher for Bayless even though the language barrier Rudy will face.
by cbp on Aug 27, 2008 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
with all due respect
how can you comment on Bayless when you admit you’d never heard of him, let alone seen him play?
Boomshakalaka
by jksnake99 on Aug 27, 2008 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't comment on Bayless....
All I comment was on Rudy. And what I comment on Rudy I know for sure Bayless has not done it becuase he is just 20 and has had no competition at all (summer league?)
by cbp on Aug 28, 2008 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Done it or not
There will be players who only played in college and haven’t played in the NBA yet who are better than Rudy.
Greg Oden, for one.
For all you know about Bayless, he could be twice the player Rudy is. You were very shocked the question was even raised without even knowing what sort of player Bayless is. Is Rudy not comparable with any incoming rookie? Is he that much better than everyone?
I love both players and I dislike the competition “pick one or the other” that some of us are trying to start, so I’ll only argue why both players are going to help us a lot. There is more than enough room for both.
But honestly, how can you argue Rudy is better without knowing who Bayless is? You can’t go by where they were drafted; Rudy was taken 24th or so. That doesn’t reflect a player’s worth necessarily.
I love your comments and I’m really glad you’re giving us your input, so I’m not trying to be too critical. It’s just odd that you acted so shocked and “don’t understand some of [us]” when one of the players in question is unknown to you. Know what I mean?
Both players played against good competition before the NBA and acted as the key players for their squadron. Rudy played with older players with much more skill and savvy than Bayless did, but Bayless played against much better athletes (like both will find in the NBA). Both will struggle, but also help us a lot.
Neither are “proven” in NBA terms and their previous success goes out the window, for the most part.
Again, I really like your input and I enjoy reading your point of view, so I’m not trying to come across as too harsh.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on Aug 28, 2008 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
then let's see what the future brings.
Sorry for my comment of "don’t understand some of [us]". You are right. I should have been more empathic.
I agree they are not going to compete eah other as it seems Bayless is 1 and Rudy (to me) is a clear 2 who has played in Spanish ACB as 3 but he won’t in NBA.
Again my shocked was based on an average 11th pick doesn’t match what Rudy already is in NBA or in ACB (it’s just an opinion).
by cbp on Aug 28, 2008 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
that Roy is better than, oh, say, that guy the Clippers drafted out of Indiana. I’ve seen a couple highlights, but never seen the guy play and don’t even remember his name. I think he’s one of those guys with a last name that is really a first name, but other than that, I don’t know that he has anything else going for him that Brandon has. I’m pretty awful certain that Brandon Roy is better.
So why can’t cbp, having seen a lot of Rudy, be confident that he’s better than a #11, even if he hasn’t seen the #11 pick play?
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
by jscot on Aug 28, 2008 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
cbp, hear the bagpipes to the rescue.
Now Morty will summon the Seventh Cavalry. I yet hear Garry Owen… Awesome clash!
The Midnight Rambler
by amlmart1 on Aug 28, 2008 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
this could be an epic showdown…
jscot, future ruler of the world
Mortimer, who was voted as most popular poster on the Blazers Edge.
Clash of the Titans.
"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car"
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Aug 28, 2008 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL indeed
Morty and I don’t always agree. Yet somehow, he’s always right, and so am I. How we do this I haven’t figured out yet.
It’s necessary, because we’ve got a couple of new Spanish members, and one of them likes Glasgow Celtic. Therefore, I have to stand with them all, even if they are dead wrong and Morty’s right.
Therefore, Morty’s right, and I’m right to stand by cbp. That’s it. I knew there was a good explanation.
Except that’s rubbish, because this time Morty is wrong.
Now, this creates a dilemma for me. Do I even want to be ruler of the world, if the world is a place where Mortimer can be wrong? Or does that spoil the world so badly that it isn’t worthy of being ruled by me?
The answer? I already KNEW the world wasn’t worthy of being ruled by me, but I was graciously willing to do it, anyway. But when I DO rule the world, Mortimer will never be wrong again. That will be one of the rules.
So it is written, so let it be done.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
by jscot on Aug 28, 2008 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Celtic vs. ManU
good stuff, I can’t wait!
How do you know he roots for Celtic?
"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car"
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Aug 28, 2008 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't
It’s the other guy, whose name I forgot, who has it in his signature.
The reference to Celtic might have made people think Boston, but when he said “bhoys” in there, that clinched it.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
by jscot on Aug 29, 2008 1:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
NO Boston!!!! Glasgow!!!!!
Wait…. You’re a Celtic fan!!!
Have you ever been in Celtic Park big man??, it’s amazing!!! I have friends in Glasgow and they’re Celtic fans ofcourse and I was in a SPL match in Celtic Park, THE BEST FANS IN THE WORLD!!!
C’mon The Celtic!!!!! C’mon The Bhoys!!!
Blazers Fans are my boys, Celtic my bhoys.
by Nakamura on Aug 29, 2008 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, I've been there
I’ve never been to one against Rangers, though. Virtually impossible to get tickets. Seen them away, too.
Did you follow them in the league last year? What a great end of the season.
I won’t say “best fans in the world” because I don’t know enough about teams on the Continent, but best in Britain, for sure.
One of my fan posts got 50 signatures. And you thought I was egotistical before. But nobody can do Ego like I can.
by jscot on Aug 29, 2008 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was in a Celtic vs St Mirren
Yes, we won 3rd SPL in a row, and Rangers lost Uefa cup final. hahaha.
You can say “best fans in the world” for sure. ;)
Blazers Fans are my boys, Celtic my bhoys.
by Nakamura on Aug 30, 2008 1:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey, what happened to my vs.?
is that some HTML code crap?
"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car"
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Aug 28, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because the #11 can be anyone
Just because we know Roy is awesome doesn’t mean a new player can’t be better than him.
Hell, Kobe Bryant went #13. Where one is drafted doesn’t ultimately mean something when players slip all the time or completely surprise people. And Kobe wasn’t even a surprise, he was getting Jordan comparisons coming out of high school and it was post-KG, where high school players were being taken again.
I love both Rudy and Bayless. I don’t like this Jack vs Sergio situation brewing ALREADY before either even play. But NO ONE, not even the biggest fans of either player, know who is going to be the better NBA pro. The ultra-athletic and competitive, just turned 20 Bayless, or the crafty playmaking sweet shooting Rudy. It is literally impossible to KNOW who is going to be better.
I am fairly certain that if one does not know anything about, say, Eric Gordon, then they can’t truthfully argue Roy is better than he is. Roy IS better, but that’s not the point. Without knowing anything about Gordon, for all you know he COULD be better (but he isn’t).
Same with Bayless and Rudy. In a few years, I don’t know who is better. Rudy is much more experienced and probably a much better playmaker. I don’t doubt Bayless’ ability to score and defend anyone. In a few years, who knows who will be better.
I’d rather feel lucky we got ‘em both, not wish they’d murder each other.
And no matter who the two players are (especially when dealing with NBA unknowns like Rudy and Bayless), if someone does not know anything about one of the players that person can not TRUTHFULLY argue that their favorite player is better than the other— because they do not KNOW that. And I don’t mean “they don’t know” as in “it’s in the future, no one knows”… I mean, they do not know because they know nothing (or not much) about the other guy.
Plus, c’mon, draft position really means nothing in this scenario. Is Marco Bellinelli better than Rudy because he went about 10 spots higher? Is Martell better than Rudy because he went #6? Each case is different and draft order is not uniform, not connected to relative talent. Each year is different, each player is different.
I don’t even get the argument. Unknown Bayless went #11, so he can’t be better than the Unknown Rudy, who went even lower the previous year? With no regard for considering what one or the other does, what they’re good at? That’s not reasonable logic, especially when talking about rookies— and especially especially when one doesn’t know anything about one of the participants in the Blazer Teammate Death Battle 2000.
Everyone can have their own favorite and believe strongly they are right, but it’s silly to argue one over the other when the other is just a name you have kinda heard of.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on Aug 28, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey Mortimer Sam Bowie was #1 (Do you remember? LOL and Kwarme Brown too and som others failings I don't recall..
by cbp on Aug 28, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sam Bowie wasn't #1...
he was #2.
After Hakeem, before Jordan.
"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car"
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Aug 28, 2008 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup, exactly!
Making draft order not relevant when comparing two players.
Exactly what I’m saying.
Which is why I wouldn’t say Rudy is less than Bayless because Bayless is getting paid more. That would be silly. Where someone is drafted, ultimately, isn’t relevant. And it’s sorta’ what you are saying, because you can’t imagine a #11 being better than Rudy even without knowing WHO that #11 is.
Don’t you see how that isn’t rational, even if you know Rudy better than anyone?
Rudy ain’t Jordan (Rudy is better), so it’s not crazy to think a highly regarded lottery pick could be better than him. Just a blank, nameless player taken at #11 could be better than any current superstar, let alone Rudy.
If you are familiar with both players and prefer Rudy, I would of course have no problem with that. I’m sure many feel that way. This is me objecting to someone disregarding a player’s worth when compared to Rudy based on superficial things— where they were drafted, or the fact that they aren’t Rudy.
Other Euros failing and other lottery picks failing have nothing to do with Rudy or Bayless.
And draft order should have even less to do with them.
Again, my objection is the strong opinion based off of only knowing one of the players.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on Aug 28, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Where someone is drafted, ultimately, isn’t relevant". Future drafts Blazers can give his pick to any franchise and chose #30. LOL. Maybe the ones like Oden, Jordan, Garnet, are still available
by cbp on Aug 28, 2008 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I'm being misunderstood
Obviously getting nice draft picks is important. I’m talking about AFTERWARDS.
We got Rudy and Bayless both much lower than they seem to deserve. Rudy was a steal at 24, Bayless was a steal at 11.
Players are not their draft order. Being #11 doesn’t make Bayless better than Rudy at #24.
And no player is so good that NO ONE ever drafted at #11 (or simply, just late in the lottery) couldn’t be better than them. Especially a guy who still has lots to prove in the NBA like Rudy.
Again, I dunno who is better. I like them both very much.
But if ya don’t know anything about Bayless, then you can’t say Rudy is better.
Well, you “can”, but it isn’t real honest to do so.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on Aug 28, 2008 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Players are not their draft order. Being #11 doesn’t make Bayless better than Rudy at #24.". OK that's pretty clear...
Now it is time to speak about statistic. Do you think by average the last 20 years the first 5 picks were in overall better than the ones chosen between 11-15th position?. If you say yes you will understand why I stated what I stated. If your answer is no then we will not get to any agreement.
To me obviously the answer is yes. Remember I am speaking of average. It is clear that there are failings in the first picks and good choices in the 11-15 picks but the other way round too and more often. If not GM will be fired continuously.
by cbp on Aug 28, 2008 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
…of course, there is a higher rate of great players taken high in the draft.
While you might consider Rudy a top 5 player in this year’s draft class, as many of us do (I think he coulda’ been), he was taken late in the 1st round, where there are many busts.
And Bayless was on many draft boards as a top 5 player, and even reportedly on Kevin Pritchard’s draft board as the 4th best player in the draft.
I’m not holding getting picked late in the 1st round against Rudy, because where he was picked doesn’t mean he isn’t a good player. And for Bayless, getting picked #11 doesn’t mean he isn’t as good as Rudy.
Remember, Rudy wasn’t taken in the lottery. And it doesn’t make him any less of a player.
Now that they have been drafted and are Blazers, where and when they were drafted means nothing to us. You can’t use where they were drafted as a basis for an argument against a player— especially when Rudy was taken so late in the 1st round (and while he might’ve been a top 5 pick in this year’s draft, that is just a guess. Bayless was supposed to go top 5 too, and he fell to #11).
Since Rudy fell to #24, we know there are a lot of bad GMs.
Good players fall in the draft every single year.
You’re arguing that Rudy maybe would have been a top 5 pick this recent draft, and thus is better than Bayless because he was picked #11, right? And top 5 picks have a higher rate of success? That’s fine, but it doesn’t take into account what sort of player Bayless is. If we’re discussing the merits of a #5 pick versus a #11 pick, without actual players we know attached to the numbers, then of course #5 is better.
But we aren’t doing that— we’re discussing two actual players, and can see what they can do.
Maybe Bayless is a bust. Maybe he’s Monta Ellis with defense. I don’t know, and I’m getting the impression that all you know of him is that he’s a Blazer and was taken #11. Just being drafted #11 doesn’t preclude him from being better than Rudy.
I’d bet dollars to donuts that Bayless, Rudy, and many other players taken after Joe Alexander end up a lot better than Joe Alexander, even though Alexander was taken #7 in the draft. It doesn’t make Joe Alexander good. After the draft, where you were picked means nothing in regards to actual talent level.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on Aug 28, 2008 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Since Rudy fell to #24, we know there are a lot of bad GMs"......This is not necessarily true...
Rudy or whatever european player has a great disadvantage compared to the american players which is information. What happened to Rudy is not more different of what happened to Ginobili, Nowitzki or Scola.
You say it was a rumor that Bayless would be in the first 5 picks. Maybe he had a good agent to market him but the real thing he fall to #11 pick.
On other hand Spain made a great challange to the USA national team. In Spain there were two key players. One was Rudy while for USA there were the best basketball players USA can put into the basket court. Ok maybe KG should be there. Please tell me in which USA national team, given his skills compared to other USA players, could Bayless have fall to represent his country in a hypothetical case the others were for some reason unavailable. If you say for example in the third team (I think I’m being too optimistic but as I don’t know him I prefer to be optimistic) I am pretty sure Spain would win to that team so this shows you something of Rudy compared to players unknown by me.
by cbp on Aug 28, 2008 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
MJ is better than Mortimer
I say that without knowing anything about how good Mortimer is.
Anyone want to argue with me, or that I can’t honestly say that?
Dwight Howard is better than that Turkish guy we traded to Chicago for 3 second round picks. I’ve never seen the guy play.
Can I back that up? Well, 30+ picks went by before he was picked, which means lots of experts assessed his capability. Good enough for me.
And I know how good Dwight Howard is.
Bayless was judged by NBA experts to be not better than #4 in the draft, and not worse than #12 (if Indiana hadn’t made the deal, he might have gone to the Kings at #12). I think there is reason to assume that he is closer to a #4 than a #12, but I can’t criticize someone who thinks he really is a #11. That’s how it shook out.
If that person has watched Rudy a lot and thinks he’s much better than a #11 pick, it isn’t unreasonable to say that he’s better than a guy who went #11. His evidence, even if he hasn’t seen the #11 pick, is the incontrovertible actions of 10 NBA teams, who are paid more than any of us to make these assessments.
His eyes tell him Rudy is better than #11. The paid experts tell him by their actions that Jerryd isn’t. It’s a reasonable argument to make. The reasons Rudy fell in the draft last year are multiple, contract related issues, etc, many of which have nothing to do with how good he is.
(Cbp is insane about the LMA/Gasol thing, though. That’s ok, we like insane people around here.)
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
by jscot on Aug 29, 2008 1:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I forgot Rudy was so amazingly incredible
When we’re talking about two rookies who have holes in their game and are not dominant rookies like Oden, then it isn’t crazy to think MAYBE you should know who the other player (not blogger, another NBA player) is before you claim with such veracity that the other player couldn’t even TOUCH the great Rudy Fernandez.
Rudy played good in 1 out of 2 games against the USA. He played pretty so-so against crappy Angola. I think he’s good, but he hasn’t really proven anything aside from being capable of good games right now, and so-so the next.
Again, talking about two players who have lottery talents. Not some random blogger sitting at his desk. Comparing two athletic, scoring, flashy guards who are both young and both rookies. And it’s crazy to think maybe one becomes better than the other? Especially when one is younger and much more athletic?
1 game is great, but ultimately not a terrific judge of how great a player is. Criticism of Rudy shouldn’t be met with shocked eye rolls and scoffing noises (and no one was even criticising him). Shane Heal scored 28 points and fought with Barkeley, he must have the toughness and game required to play in the NBA! Hey, that tub of goo for Greece must be awesome, he tore up NBA players a few times. How about that Greek point guard?
Now to avoid being misunderstood, I think Rudy is much better than all of those fellows. In fact, I think Rudy will be terrific. I just think it is at least silly-homerness to say that another player couldn’t be better than Rudy when you don’t know anything about the other player.
From what we have all seen, Rudy is not the level of player that it is insane to suggest a random lottery pick could be better than him.
Rudy could become better than Roy for all we know. In 3 years Bayless could be better than Rudy. Who knows? These are all talented, young players we’re talking about, not 8 foot stiffs from Bulgaria who learned how to play basketball with a potato-ball and a cracked open skull for the basket.
They are definitely comparable.
But more to the point: without knowing who we’re talking about, it is not debateable that you can’t even know enough to form a guess. Draft order is not a reliable way to judge it. There are a billion exceptions to the draft order “rule”, and Rudy and Bayless both stand to be sterling examples of both.
Thus, I think it is crazy to defend such an argument.
It isn’t blasphemy to think another athletic, flashy, scoring guard is going to become better than Rudy. Knowing what I know of both players, I can’t even guess who will become better. Both will improve and show us stuff we didn’t expect. If you follow both and prefer one, that is one thing. Only follow one and disparage the other, that’s just silly.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on Aug 29, 2008 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So
So what you are saying is that you think Von Wafer is better than Rudy? Sheesh.
The first day I ever met him he said: "Hi, I'm Ritchie White. I'm on probation."
by tominhawaii on Aug 29, 2008 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In 3 years Bayless could be better than Rudy. I agree....but this will be in some future not this year
Mortimer again my comment is based on what I know of Rudy.I have seen him playing at the highest level for 6 years. The last two years was TERRIFIC. He LEAD an average team to be a tittle contender both in domestic and european competition even national team (world champion).
I don’t know any american player of 20 coming to Europe and did what Rudy did. There was a player who was selected in the first position and decided to play in Italy when finished the university instead of Nba and he did almost nothing compared to Rudy. His name was Ferry at the end of the 80’s and drafted by Cleveland).
We are comparing him to a guy who is 20, no competition and pick 11. Or wait….. I am wrong maybe there is a mistake and is not 11 but 1. Oh yes what a stupid I am…..he is like Lebron James. Lebron was under 20, no competition and pick#1.
by cbp on Aug 31, 2008 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thank Jscot or should I say scottish Braveheart.
Now I understand your postings in other topic of Edimburg, Gibraltar…
by cbp on Aug 28, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
RUDY WAY BETTER THAN BAYLESS
I am kind of tired of the very little perspective the members of this website have. Bayless play very very well…IN THE SUMMER LEAGUE! The summer league is meant for rookies and players without a team. Any NBA player will tell you that even when the level is good is nowhere near NBA regular season.
Rudy had ANOTHER amazing game in the final game of the olympic games! Kobe, MVP of the league giving his 120% couldn’t stop him. Rudy has also been a super star in Europe where good NBA players have gone and been cut (i.e: Raja Bell).
Rudy, if given the minutes, will be way better than Bayless, and in some games more crutial than Roy. That is how good this kid is.
Friendly reminder about the little perspective of some of the members:
“T. Green will be the point guard of the future for this team. He is great, way better than Sergio and will take Blake’ spot in no time” T. Green is playing a year later in a small team in Spain that just came from division 2.
by rudylover on Aug 27, 2008 10:16 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
its not just summer league with Bayless
He was widely seen as a top 5 pick and the Blazers were very lucky to get him where they did.
No one doubts (I don’t think) that Rudy is the more accomplished and experienced player. Rudy has proven himself at very high levels… but the NBA is a different game— and its not unreasonable to argue Bayless fits better with the Blazer roster. Additionally, Bayless will not have to deal with the language issues or the difficulty of adjusting to a new country.
I give Rudy the edge but its not a slam dunk.
Boomshakalaka
by jksnake99 on Aug 27, 2008 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
your tag is rudylover...
To me, that seems to indicate a slight (sarcastic/) bias towards one Rudy Fernandez. It’s somewhat ironic then to allude to poor objectivity by this sites members when you’re clearly not objective about the Blazers foreign rookie.
Because he’s just that… a foreigner, and a rookie. He has a LOT of adjusting to do. Unlike the other rookie Bayless, he’s played his game professionally for years, so it could me more challenging for him to unlearn and learn then for Bayless to learn from a clean slate.
Also, and you cannot emphasize this enough, defense is EXTRAORDINARILY important for this team with this coach. All signs seem to indicate at this point that Bayless is the better defender, which could mean he is favored.
Offensively, Rudy definitely has the tools, and I agree with you that he will have the better year, but you can’t be hatin’ on people for having a different opinion. That is what perspective is, after all.
"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car"
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Aug 27, 2008 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention
that Bayless is a well-respected baller in the Phoenix area, and has honed his craft in off-season pickup games against NBA players while at UA
by two4larue on Aug 27, 2008 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is not Europe
Raja Bell is considered a top defender in the NBA, but gets cut in Europe? What does that tell you about the contrast in the way the game is played. In the NBA you have to play defense. Period.
by koyote on Aug 27, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
If Rudy doesn’t succeed in the US, it won’t be because he isn’t a good player. He’s already proven beyond any doubt that he’s a very good player. The NBA game is different that the international game though.
I have full confidence in Rudy’s ability to adjust, but its possible he’ll have a tougher time than Bayless, who’s grown up around the American game. I imagine Bayless would struggle his first year in the ACB if he went over to play there.
Boomshakalaka
by jksnake99 on Aug 27, 2008 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rudy AND Bayless
There’s no Rudy “or” Bayless in my book. It’s Rudy “and” Bayless. The only evaluation I care about given his track record is KP’s and his scouting team. He was firm that Bayless was the 4th best player in this years draft. Where or why he was drafted, and what other teams did or didn’t do, is irrelevant. He also said Rudy would’ve been a top 10 pick in this draft, and that Rudy can do some things very few players in the NBA can do, and some of you saw some that in the Olympics. Both performed well in the venue’s that had. You can’t sit around and critisize Bayless simply because he played in Summer League, and you can’t understimate Rudy given his experience simply because he played in Europe. Both need time to play and grow – as do all rookies. But from where I sit, I’ve seen enough to be willing to put money on the fact that both will be in the NBA a lot of years. As they have time to play, I think you’ll see some things that might surprise you. If both go through a normal NBA growth curve, then in two years, we’ll probably see a three guard rotation. And maybe sooner. Both, after all, are good enough athletes to improve on their weaknesses – which any rookie who sticks around must do. I believe they can both learn to play pretty good defense. Both have demonstrated pretty good shots from mid and long range as well – and practice can improve it. As far as distributing the ball, I suspect, that over time, you’ll see both doing some of that – which is what the coaches and KP think as well. Rudy OR Bayless. NO. Rudy AND Bayless. Yes.
by Eben Calder on Aug 27, 2008 3:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Tough choice.
But I have this vibe with Bayless that he is going to be a Steve Fracis, Gilbert Arenas type of guy. Could be a good or a bad thing depending on what the team make up is. I like both of them though. But my gut says Rudy will be better. Tough question.
My favorite teams are the Blazers and any team that is playing the Lakers.
by OCBlazerFan1 on Aug 27, 2008 3:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Im with ya...
Bayless is an attacker………..but Rudy is a straight gamer……
give me the gamer any day
by BroyTheTruth on Aug 27, 2008 3:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No competition
There is no competition in my heart between the two. Both are loved and both will help us a lot this season, and seasons beyond.
Both will play with Roy, and both will play together. All of the criticisms of either player probably won’t end up being completely accurate since both are so young and have yet to play an NBA game yet.
Bayless had 4 assists a game in college (same as Rose) as the main scorer. I haven’t seen him be as creative a passer as Rudy, but it is sooooo early to say he is selfish or won’t pass, because I saw a willing passer who had no one to pass to in summer league.
Rudy might not have the quickness to guard a PG, but he is tenacious and smart and will learn how to gamble “correctly” as he adjusts to the NBA. If we’re getting killed we can zone, but we all know Rudy is a baller. He can play with anyone on our team.
The guys aren’t necessarily in competition for each other. My hope is that Bayless proves he can be the starting and finishing PG, and Rudy can be the super-duper-sub 6th man who takes over when he is in and plays alongside Roy a lot.
My larger hope is that we find a way for all 3, someday, to play with each other. That’s a lot of firepower, a lot of playmaking, and a lot of weapons that no team could handle.
We got options. It’s way, way, way early to make it one or the other.
Any perception you have of either player will change nearly completely in a few months. No one’s career goes exactly as it seems it will before they start it. Both will likely surprise and disappoint us in certain ways, and we won’t always be able to predict it.
All I know is, I’m glad we got them both and we got the room to play them. It’ll be a lot of fun.
I also know both are rookies, and you can’t pigeonhole a rookie. They’re gonna grow and change.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on Aug 28, 2008 3:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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