Final Thoughts on Team USA and Rudy
by Dave on Aug 24, 2008 11:50 PM PDT
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PrintI allowed myself a luxury on Saturday night which I hadn't previously during this Olympic basketball run: I watched the game as a game instead of focusing laser tight on Rudy Fernandez and his play. I must admit it was much more relaxing that way. I still came away with a few final thoughts.
On Team USA:
I was actually happy they won the gold medal game. We saw something extremely rare in that contest. Before this year we've seen two types of Team USA games: those in which the squad wasn't challenged and cruised their way to victory and those in which they received a challenge and crumpled. Saturday we got a rare glimpse of a game in which the team was challenged and actually played enough good basketball to claim the victory. I liked seeing that. It gave me a newfound respect for those players and the job the team as a whole (including the coaches) did. Had the U.S. not showed some skill passing and hitting shots from distance they would have lost that game as they had its cousins in years past. Despite the final margin piled on in the last minute one or two three-pointers missed would have rocked the boat substantially. When they got finished I found myself saying, "Now THAT was a game."
Team USA also had to tread a line which will eventually become important to the Blazers. During the middle quarters of the game when the U.S. was being pressured Doug Collins mentioned repeatedly that they had to continue playing a team game and not revert to one-on-one tactics. This was a near-unveiled reference back to the Iverson/Marbury days when "team" described form but not function. When he said it, I thought he was half right. Two hands must be kept in tension, balanced against each other in this vein. On the one had Collins is perfectly correct. As soon as one player tried to dominate the game the team would fall apart, passing would fail, the opposing defense would key, and we'd see outside jumpers missed and run back for easy points, leading to a loss. On the other hand you have talent on that team for a reason. If no individual player is able to step forth and flourish, if giving up the rock is always the right play, then you end up losing because you never took full advantage of the players you put on the squad. You get to the end of the game and the analysis reads, "Kobe was never Kobe" or "We never saw the real LeBron for some reason".
As it turned out, the U.S. team did play a team game up until the point in the fourth when Kobe took the game over. When he did none of the other players vied with him for the position. It seems like they said, "In crunch time this is the guy, and we're all going to be cool with that." In reality this is just another variation of the unselfishness that Collins was talking about. Any of them could have been that guy, but all of them competing to would have led to disaster. The other guys--even LeBron--accepted the torch being passed to Kobe and said, "Down the stretch this team needs 100% of you more than it needs 20% of all of us." We got the best of both worlds: a team game plus Kobe being Kobe.
This balance has been devilishly hard for Team USA to perfect in the past. That they were able to do it this year is a serious credit to all involved. As Portland continues its evolution, looking like it will be stuffed to the gills with talented players, it's an example they would do well to emulate.
The only other things that stood out about the U.S. team was simply how difficult it is for any team that's not intimately familiar with each other (and trusting of each other) to make defensive adjustments and rebound. Certain critical aspects of the game really are team-dependent no matter how talented the players involved.
On Rudy Fernandez:
The fact that Rudy didn't start the game or play in the first quarter tells you something about Rudy in general. The fact that he responded with a fantastic game tells you something about Rudy specifically.
The inescapable generality we can glean from Rudy not starting is that his perceived talent level and value, while undoubtedly good, is not iron-clad great. This was the gold medal game. If this guy is your star, your all-star, Mr. Olympics, there's no way in heck he's on the bench for the opening tip, let alone the opening ten minutes. That would never happen to Pau Gasol, period. That's just reality. Amongst all the Rudy hype it's necessary to say that, speaking in generalities, there were 12 guys on the U.S. Team who are all better players than he, plus a guy on the Spanish team, plus a few more sprinkled around the tournament.
Dwight Jaynes wondered why the Spanish team chose this route with Rudy. I will admit it is not the way I would have chosen to go, but there may be a couple plausible answers. First, Doug Collins hit it on the head when he said that the Spanish team wanted to shorten this game. Their best strategy was to stay close as long as possible and then out-kick the U.S. (or if you prefer, turn the game into a coin flip) in the closing minutes. The thing they wanted to avoid above all was getting down big in the first quarter. To this end they played a ton of man-to-man in the first half. Their other guards may just be better in that defensive scheme than Rudy is. When they started employing more zone they had no problem playing him. The second reason Jaynes hints at in the closing paragraphs of his piece. Rudy fouled out even in the minutes he got. It's possible they anticipated he would have trouble guarding his counterparts cleanly and figured they needed him out there for those crucial closing minutes more than they needed him in the opening stanza. Making sense of this doesn't invalidate the paragraph just above, it simply explains what Rudy needs to work on to become one of those iron-clad guys.
The only other reason I can think of offhand would be some sort of disciplinary action, but that seems well beyond the realm of credibility. We've heard nothing of the sort and besides, it's the gold medal game. You don't use that venue to make a point.
The bigger point here for Blazer fans is that Rudy responded fantastically to the plan, whatever the reasoning, strengths, or weaknesses involved. A ton of guys would have crumpled after being left on the bench for the entire first period in the ultimate game. Some would have come out angry and tried to dominate the game unnecessarily as soon as they were inserted. What did Rudy do? He only came out and had his best game of the tournament (taking the stakes and opposition into consideration). He showed something about his resolve and dedication that speaks louder than the same game would have had he been used normally. This is exactly what he's going to need in the NBA. It's going to be a learning experience and he will face some struggles. The proper response to that fight is exactly what he did in this game: don't act the fool, don't pout, don't make excuses, don't make the game all about you, don't lose confidence and shy away...rather come out giving the best effort you can within the framework of the game plan and show the coaches and everybody why you should be playing every darn minute of the game. In this sense the first-quarter absence was a blessing for those of us looking in. It reveals something we otherwise might not have seen. If Rudy keeps that attitude he will do fine here.
Congrats to Team USA. The next time we'll see something definitive about Rudy will be the start of the season. Keep the legend in perspective until then but also be prepared to enjoy him. This should be interesting.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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Wow, Dave: for once I strongly disagree.
First, why do you feel that Rudy’s role of the bench indicates he’s not a star? Isn’t Manu Ginobli one of the Spurs’ “Big 3?” Isn’t John Havlicek in the Hall of Fame for playing the 6th man role with the Celtics?
Then there’s this statement from you: “Amongst all the Rudy hype it’s necessary to say that, speaking in generalities, there were 12 guys on the U.S. Team who are all better players than he, plus a guy on the Spanish team, plus a few more sprinkled around the tournament.” Actually, in the gold medal game I thought Rudy often appeared to be the second or third-best (after the hated Kobe and the beloved Dwayne Wade) player on the floor.
That doesn’t mean Rudy is actually better than LeBron and some of the other Redeem Teamers. And Manu Ginobli and Luis Scola are certainly fine players also. But except for some obvious defensive lapses, I thought Rudy Fernandez, in his last two games as well as in the China game, appeared to be on the same general level as the best players in the tournament. Despite a game plan built around pounding the ball inside to the Gasol Bros, Rudy Fernandez was the second-leading scorer on the team, and, more importantly, was incredibly active all over the court. As Snapper Jones said during the Lithuania game, Rudy is a “difference-maker.”
Although there’s no way of proving it, I’ll bet that Kobe Bryant would pick Rudy Fernandez as a teammate over several of his celebrated “Redeem Team” members. After spending a large portion of Rudy’s 17.5 minutes in the gold medal game playing Rudy at both ends—and noticably failing to dominate him—I think Kobe must have come away extremely impressed. I’m surprised that you didn’t have the same take, Dave.
This time, I think your caution has gotten the best of you. This kid can really play. Give him a couple years and I expect him to be vying for the NBA’s 6-man award. The Blazers have an embarrassment of riches; it’s almost unfair.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
by hurryup09 on Aug 25, 2008 12:57 AM PDT reply actions 7 recs
WORD
After reading Dave’s opinion piece I felt the need to say the very words that you wrote. Thank you for saying it for me.
Rec’ed
LMA>LA!
LMA's reign as "LaMonster of the Low Post" has just begun!
by LaMarvelous on Aug 25, 2008 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Good post. I think you may be right that the whole USA team is better but they all have NBA experience and training.
I would argue that I’d take Rudy over Kidd because Kidd is easily the worst player on team USA at this stage in his career. However, no player that breaks Kobe, hits a 3 over Tayshaun Prince’s out stretched arms, and dunk in Dwight Howard’s face all in one game can be called anything other than a star. I look at him coming off the bench the same as I do Manu Ginobili coming off the bench. This game it suited the teams strategy to have him come in during the second quarter. Perfect for Portland because that’s when our second unit come in and Roy gets a break.
Forgot about Kidd
Kidd is such a wildcard right now that his inclusion in the quote could be considered questionable. That said, had he played for Spain it’s pretty certain that he would have started the game no matter what. But at this point that may be as much defensive prowess as value.
Your point about experience and training is accurate. In four years when the Olympics come around again I hope Rudy is the type of player, like Gasol, that the coach wouldn’t even dream of letting sit for a quarter no matter what the circumstances. My “better players” assertion means literally right now…as that is the Rudy we’re getting.
—Dave
I like your remarks why Rudy will be perfect for our second unit Dave, but doubt his lack of "greatness" had much to do with Spain's decision
As Amlmart pointed out in the Rudy Rudy Rudy post, Spain has played with a number of different rotations and the coach usually tries to distribute playing time over more players than most NBA coaches would (especially in elimination games or playoffs). In this game, a few of his bench scrubs played considerably less, but he still had to use some rotation. Big men are not so much the problem here since he had some solid guys to back up a starting Pau who of course is the clear star of the team, scoring more than anybody on Team USA in the tournament. The big problem are the guards because (quote Amlmart1) “Calderon was injured, Raul Lopez was not well and Ricky is too young”. His only remaining star guard was Navarro, who isn’t a very reliable scorer and in the second half proved that with a number of crazy floaters that luckily went in. Had the coach started Navarro and Rudy or Ricky and Rudy, who would have provided scoring in the second unit from outside? Definitely not Ricky, who is still lacking in this regard. The US could have clogged the lane. So while it seemed too long to sit Rudy for the full first quarter, it wasn’t an unreasonable decision considering the “5 fouls and you are out” and Spain knew everybody would have to play more aggressive defense than in the first game no matter if you are a great defender or not. A number of Spanish players ended up with 3 or 4 fouls, also knowing the US wasn’t that more dangerous from the line than from the field. The game was all but over when Rudy fouled out. Had this happened to either him or Navarro in the third quarter, Spain would have had no chance to keep it close.
Regarding performance in the overall tournament, as I already had posted in the Rudy Rudy Rudy threat, he was clearly the second best guy on his team (so there he is one of the "greats") and pretty darn close to Kobe on Team USA, see below.
I would think this is highly encouraging cause Kobe is the superstar of the Lakers whereas Rudy will be just one of a number of good players and mostly come from the bench at least during his first year without being relied upon to win the game on his own. The fact that he can’t guard the likes of Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Anthony, etc. consistently one on one? Who can keep these below 30 if they run hot? And he won’t face some of these All-Star guys more than twice per year even if he would be put directly on them. As you pointed out in your previous analysis there is no doubt he will have to work a lot on his defense. E.g. in this game it seemed again like he was trading points with Wade when they were guarding each other. But he has all the tools and skills to do so.
Please excuse if this love for Rudy seems too over the top. This is my “Rudy appreciation week” (see my profile image).
. . .
Rudy stats for the whole Olympics:
Second scorer after Pau Gasol on the Spanish team, with 105 points. 177 minutes in 8 games (again second after Pau). Shooting 56% for 2pts (19/34) and 40% for 3pts (16/40, so in fact he took more threes). 79% from the line (19/24). 28 rebounds (12 offensive, 16 defensive). 17 assists (second best behind Rubio). 8 steals (Rubio 17!). 2 blocks. 15 turnovers, 22 fouls committed.
Some comparisons to Team USA: Only Wade (128 in 150 min), LeBron (124 in 198) and Kobe (120 in 188) scored more points – yet Wade did so with 30 minutes less, man of the games. Some US players who operate closer to the basket are more efficient (also because they often got easier shots). But in terms of shooting percentages, Rudy even compares pretty favorably with Kobe and had double the number of trips to the line (61% for 2, 32% from 3, 58% FT, also 17 assists) in pretty much the same playing time. Funny side note: Overall Rudy had one more assist than Kidd, who is a pass first, second and third guy with 13 points in a little over 100 minutes ;-)
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
by Norsktroll on Aug 25, 2008 3:31 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I was just about to make a huge comment
regarding this quote
Had the coach started Navarro and Rudy or Ricky and Rudy, who would have provided scoring in the second unit from outside? Definitely not Ricky, who is still lacking in this regard. The US could have clogged the lane.
But you have summed up my reasoning as to why Rudy did not start.
Sophia
"Thank God those nightmarish booty-less days are behind us. I blame cocaine."-Mortimer
That was a very hard winter,
and it was just like one long night,
with me lying awake, waiting and waiting and waiting
for daybreak.
- Black Elk
1881
Again, you're citing the Spanish coach's action as "evidence"
I’d sooner rely on reading entrails (as the ancient Greeks did) than rely on the actions of a newbie Spanish coach as a means of assessing a player’s ability. Who knows what the coach was thinking? His moves often appeared irrational during the tournament. Maybe Calderon’s absense upset his rotation; maybe he felt that if the other players kept the US within reach, a 2nd quarter burst from Rudy could put Spain ahead to stay; who knows?
The bottom line is HOW Rudy played in that game, as well as in the other medal round game against Lithuania. And he was very, very impressive in those games—more so than several of the Redeem Teamers (who represent the cream of the NBA).
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Ruuuuuuudy !
The dunk was awesome, but the between the legs dribble
step back three in the 2nd quarter was proof to me of his
ability. He is going to be a excellent cog in the White unit’s
domination of the NBA’s second squads. Hello Pioneer Square !
I missed the last one, but saw it on TV.
It's GO time !
One thing I got from your post
was your dissection of team USA and in watching the gold medal game over again itreminded us of what made us so successful last year.
It seemed that, as you said, that during much of the game the players would drive and if nothing was there, they would kick out with the confidence that their teammates would be able to hit the outside shot, with that much talent how could they not. At the same time in watching hese olys in general, most of the teams draw and kick, perhaps because they do not have as much talent or perhaps selfishness as NBA players. It seems so often in the NBA players drive and try to throw up hail mary’s or try to dunk on the opposing D’er trying to make a highlight reel, as opposed to making the smart pass to the open shooter on the wing.
That is what I saw many a time last year with Jones on the floor and due to the unselfish nature of our team we made the smart pass to the open shooter.
The other thing that you noticed was, in crunch time everyone on the team knew who the ball was going to: K*be, exactly like it is here with Brandon. Play as a team for 90% of the game and if the game is close hand it over to our closer, Brandon. What is great about our team is that now we have 2 certified closers in Brandon and TO and possibly 2 more in Bayless and Rudy, both of whom have showed no reluctancy in taking a big shot with the game on the line.
I really do see parellels to our current Blazer crew and team US and hope that Nate has garnered some knowledge on how to handle and manage multiple talent team as the one that we hopefully have.
As for Rudy it is a bit interesting why he did not start, but Garcia has stated all along that this team is treated as equals and even when Calderon was avalible, would have Rubio and Lopez in during important stretches even though Calderon is better than both of them. Perhaps, he wanted to have some firepower off the bench much like we should be using TO, even though he is better than Webster. But we will probably never know the motivations behind why hi did not start and are left to only speculate.
As for his D, I thought it was more than adequate and the only times he got burned were times he got a lottle too agressive and went for a steal. Physically he is not yet able to impose his will on players of that caliber yet, but K*be is impossible to guard 1 on 1 regardless. He was stiull able to keep a body in front of K*be decently well, but hey he is K*be and you can only do so much.
I dont buy Jaynes assertion that Espana was afraid that Rudy would foul out against the competition.. If you go back and look as his fouls the majority of them are of 2 types, ticky tack fouls that could of gone either way or blatant fouls that were on fast breaks or on help D, none were on his own player, except the last one and they were playing man the entire time.
I thikn this game was excellent in regards to Rudy, as he will be in much teh same position when he comes here: off the bench and able to light it up in less minutes. I cant wait to see TO and Rudy run a pick and roll and TO launching into the air to throw down a Rudy pass.
I am so excited as he will make everyone better around him because he can hit the open shot and open up the court, he can make an excellent pass if the D makes a mistake, and he can slash to the basket if no one else is hitting. Best of all he can do it off the bench, which is an art in itself.
Bienvenidos Rudy!!
Ill take rudy over kidd, scola, and redd, and thats before
hes had time to develop in the Association.
I do think keeping him out was probably strategic, but on that note I did get the feeling that they were not using him to his full potential when he was on the floor. Could this be due some sort of animosity from teammates?
Dave is right and wrong
Dave has been right about Rudy’s defensive deficiencies. Rudy gambles too much and he doesn’t maintain good position. But I’m not much troubled. In general, defense is easier to learn than offense. Defense is a dollop of knowledge mixed with large measures of concentration and energy. On the whole, good offensive players find it easier to become good defensive players than vice versa. Compare Michael Jordan and Joel Pryzbilla. Jordan BECAME a great defensive player. Joel, a good defender, will never become a great offensive player and you know its not for not trying.
Dave is wrong about assessing Rudy as a player over all. All 12 USA players in the Olympic team are not better than Fernandez. Rudy has an extraordinary combination of offensive abilities: he can create space to get away outside shoots against even good defenders such as K*be; he has a very quick release on his shot; he shoots a high percentage; he is fearless in attacking the basket and is able to finish at the rim (something Sergio has trouble doing). Yes, he fouled out of the Olympic final, but in less than 18 minutes he led his team in points, shooting over 50%. After he joins Portland, his defense will improve.
And that’s the Truth.
Your points are well reasoned and supported
But there is one possibility you neglect:
Juan Carlos Navarro has been terrible coming off the bench in the first 6 games:
Greece: 18 min, 2/7 FG, 1/3 3FG, 0 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 TO, 0 PF, 7 points.
China: 16 min, 3/9 FG, 2/4 3FG, 0 rebounds, 0 assists, 1 steal, 3 TO, 1 PF, 8 points
Germany: 17 min, 1/5 FG, 0/2 3FG, 4 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals, 1 TO, 1 PF, 2 points
USA: 18 min, 2/10 FG, 0/5 3FG, 3 rebounds, 1 assist, 0 steals, 2 TO, 0 PF, 5 points
Angola:* 22 min, 5/16 FG, 2/8 3FG, 1 rebound, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1 TO, 2 PF, 12 points
Croatia 10 min, 0/1 FG, 0/1 3FG, 0 rebounds, 1 assist, 0 steals, 1 TO, 0 PF, 0 points
Lithuania 12 min, 0/3 FG, 0/0 3FG, 2 rebounds, 0 assists, 1 steal, 0 TO, 1 foul, 0 points
USA* 25 min, 6/14 FG, 0/2 3FG, 3 rebounds, 4 assists, 0 steals, 3 TO, 1 foul, 18 points
- started game at SG
Only in the Angola game which Navarro started has he contributed double digits on offense. It stands to reason that Garcia wished to gain an offensive contribution against the USA from Navarro realizing that without Navarro he could not win. He started Navarro and got the production he needed with Rudy able to come off the bench in a role Navarro proved incapable of performing. Against Angola Rudy played only 14 minutes but had 9 points on 3/5 FG, 1/3 3FG from the bench. So Garcia’s strategy worked well in the 2nd USA game by getting significant production from Navarro as well as Rudy.
I appreciate your perspective and your points are still valid otherwise.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Aug 25, 2008 2:55 AM PDT reply actions 5 recs
wow,
that i think is a wonderful addition to the various perspectives being offered. Fantastic.
"Next up, an event we will be following this through Celtic training camp: the Trail Blazers’ fan base competes in sychronized sweating."
--- LaoTzu on Aug 22, 2008 11:51 AM PDT
Perfect
"Thank God those nightmarish booty-less days are behind us. I blame cocaine."-Mortimer
That was a very hard winter,
and it was just like one long night,
with me lying awake, waiting and waiting and waiting
for daybreak.
- Black Elk
1881
I completely agree with lee3022, Dave lay off the Debbie Downer Role a little
I believe Rudy coming off the bench had everything to do with Calderon being hurt and Rudy being the best option as a backup point guard if needed, Navarro playing better when he starts, Rudy carrying the 2nd squad, having a lot in the tank come the 4th quarter, and possibly Dave’s opinion of avoiding foul trouble. I don’t agree with what Dave was saying in regards to his concern of why Rudy didn’t start at allllll!
Ya
I watched every game, and there is no doubt who Spains second best player was. Trying to draw conclusions from him not playing the first quarter is simply ridiculous. HE SCORED 22 POINTS IN 17 MINUTES AGAINST A GROUP OF FUTURE HALL OF FAMERS!!!!! I was avoiding posting here because I don’t want to be snarky about this “recap”. Screw it, Dave praised Rudy’s performance against China, then dismissed it by saying “lets see how he does against NBA competition”. Well, he faced that competition, and was the best player on Spains team during the gold medal game, and all Dave wants to do is speculate why he didn’t play in the first, and try to draw conclusions from it? What else does Rudy have to do??? I give up….
RUDY > MJ
Also
Marc Gasol started over Pau in the first game.
Raul Lopez started over Calderon, Navarro and Rubio (who all are better) in one game.
So don’t put too much weight on Rudy coming off the bench.
On another note: I wonder if the Referees got gold medals as well? They should have…
Yep
Dave assumed that the Spanish coach thinks and makes decisions like an NBA coach. He doesn’t . His rotations and starting decisions were perplexing all tournament long. Several other have come up with good explanations for his strategy. The fact that Rudy didn’t start says very little about about Rudy’s game.
How he played said a lot; not all of it was positive. He really does have some defensive problems. His worst defensive outing was probably against Lithuania. Fortunately, I think that good defensive coaching can have a HUGE impact on how he defends. The mistakes he is making are correctable mistakes rather than innate deficiencies, for the most part. As long as the language barrier is not too tall, I expect him to improve his defense considerably over the next couple of seasons.
I think...
… Norsktroll came dangerously close to the real reason Rudy didn’t start the game, and to me it says something else about the guy’s character.
Everybody was saying how Team USA had been abusing the competition with their unmatched depth; I rather fancy Spain took this formidable contingency seriously and countered with spreading their talent a little thinner overall so as not to put all their eggs in one basket, so to speak. To that end Rudy coming off the bench as he did, without apparent animosity, without hanging his head, clearly tells me he truly is a team player, and one who understands what it is the TEAM needs, rather than what the individual may want.
Add to that, having personally seen every single Olympic game for Espana (several more than once), Rudy has struck me as being something as a wild card. With everyone else on that team you know what you’re getting; with Rudy, not so much. Could very well be he was the loaded dice for Spain.
Just my few coppers, but either way you look at it, whether or not it was Spain’s intent, this they did well, spreading their talent the best they could, and came dangerously close at times to having the gamble pay off.
If you think that having Navarro as the starting SG instead of Rudy was a defensive strategy you are just wrong. Or you don’t know what you are talking about. Look at the coach, ask around what Aito Garcia Reneses usually does, and you’ll get an answer to all those questions you have.
I hate it when people try to draw conclusions about stuff they don’t know about.
“Making sense of this doesn’t invalidate the paragraph just above, it simply explains what Rudy needs to work on to become one of those iron-clad guys.”
He’s already one of those iron-clad guys. I really don’y know what you are talking about.
by Novoa on Aug 25, 2008 4:53 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
What most Americans don't understand
is that in Europe, there is not starting 5 that starts EVERY game. Plenty of coaches will pick the best 5 players to start that fit his tactical plan. In tournaments, it becomes more important to switch things up from game to game. Rudy’s coach must have thought that the team would fare better if Rudy came off the bench. I guess he was right! What I believe we learned from this game about Rudy is that he is clearly one of the best players in this Olmpics. He’s not one of the best ‘NBA’ players at this Olmpics. Just because a player does not play in the NBA does not mean he’s not as good as one playing in the NBA. Truth is we don’t know how good he will be in the NBA.
Another thing what’s with all the compliments about how well he handled coming off the bench? He’s just a b-ball player man, not a ‘Diva’. How many Europeans that play in the NBA have you ever heard complain? I don’t remember any that have demanded to start every game. Its just not done over there.
I appreciate your perspective
and do not disagree at all. I don’t know that you can characterize “most Americans” any more than you can characterize an NBA player vs a non-NBA player. And of course, Rudy is an NBA player now.
The perspective Dave brings here is simply the way many of us look at the game. It may not agree with your perspective but perhaps it complements it instead. For the Blazer fans here the interest in Rudy is in his NBA game potential and the reality of how Rudy may be used on the Blazers. It is helpful to fit the Olympic experience into that future NBA grid.
I personally agree that players are players. KP and Coach Nate have seemed to work hard to foster the very points you make. This year may alter our Blazer perception even more as the versatility of the Blazer roster allows Coach Nate to use multiple starting lineups depending on the opponent. The NBA typically uses starters 30+ minutes a game leaving less than 20 minutes for backups. Coach Nate, however, uses starters differently by using some players more at the end of games and some more at the beginning. It is all about the blending of player talents with the flow of the game and the dictates of the opponents to orchestrate a win. It does not seem that any two coaches approach this task exactly the same way in the NBA. But many fans do stereotype players, positions, and depth without allowing for the extended knowledge and perception of the coaching staff and its philosophy. Dave does a good job of addressing some of those stereotypes.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
Dreaming of Mismatches
Hey everybody! I have been lurking, off and on, for over a year now. I am not a b-ball expert, but I have been a fan since the beginning. My family moved to Portland in 1969, when I was eleven. I have watched it all…
Now seems like as good of time as any to chip in my two cents:
Part of what I love about basketball is the tension between individual excellence and team cooperation. Teams need outstanding players to be successful, but not all outstanding players are able to lead their team to success. B-ball offense is about getting the ball to a player in a spot, with a match-up, where they can efficiently try to score. Some players, like MJ or K*be, are great one-on-one guys who can create their own shot from almost anywhere on the floor. Most guys need the ball in a particular area to be effective.
What I find so exciting about the PTB current bumper crop of young talent, is the prospect of creating so many mismatches on the floor. Over time, and I don’t expect it to take too long, Oden is going to have a huge impact on the offense. LMA and GO together are going to stress every defense they face. The combination of GO’s overwhelming strength and athleticism and LMA’s smooth moves and deft touch is going to be awesome. Most teams are going to have a heck of a time defending them straight up. They are going to need to bring help, and that is going to create opportunities on the perimeter. It will take a while for the team to learn how and when to get the ball inside to the dynamic duo, and it will take a while for LMA and GO to learn when to shoot and when to kick back out, but once this team figures it out, they are going to be almost impossible to defend.
Rudy seems to possess an array of talent that can fit in nicely within this larger framework. Obviously he can shoot the ball: he has the quick release needed for catching and shooting; he can take the ball to the hole which keeps defenders guessing; and, as his step-back three showed, he can create his own outside shot. Having said this, the things that impressed me most about Rudy are his movement without the ball and his deft passing. Watching Rudy work without the ball brought back fond memories of Bob Gross at his best (obviously, the similarity is superficial, different players with different games). Rudy is one of the most “active” players I have seen. I hope that Martell will pay attention, he could learn a lot from watching Rudy work to get open.
Rudy’s defensive deficiencies have been the subject of a lot of discussion. To my eye, he needs a lot of work, but he has the brains, the energy, and the physical tools to be a decent defender. He is fast enough to stay in front of his man, but he often appears to be out of position. He needs to learn when to help, when to gamble, and when to stay on his guy. His lack of upper body strength is a real problem when he is trying to fight through screens. I suspect that it will not be long before other teams try to exploit this deficiency. In the short run, it looks to me as though Rudy is only ready to guard other SGs. I don’t think he can stay in front of most PGs, and I think his lack of strength will be magnified against most SFs.
Obviously, Rudy has huge offensive skills and a very high b-ball IQ. They question is how to best utilize those skills on a team where he plays the same position as our “best” player and team leader?
The obvious option is to use him primarily as Roy’s backup at the “2”. However, that probably limits him to 12 to 15 minutes per game. That may make sense initially, but I can’t help thinking about using Roy and Rudy together in a three guard lineup.
How would it work? It seems to me that Roy would have to defend the “3” and Rudy would take the “2”. On offense, Roy would share PG duties with either Blake or J-Bay, who would defend the “1”.
In essence we would have three combo guards on the floor with GO and LMA. I think this combination of speed, size, passing ability, and outside shooting would create huge problems for opposing defenses. Teams would have to defend either Roy or Rudy with their “3”. Few 3s in the league could keep up with either. Especially with JBay combined with Roy and Rudy, the Blazers would be a constant threat to drive to the basket. I think most teams would have to play zone to cope with our speed and that would create openings for dropping the ball down low or for open outside shots.
What do the rest of you think? How much three guard can, or should, the Blazers play? Which three guards would you use? Would the offensive mismatches created be worth the defensive problems we would face? Do you think it makes sense to play our team leader out of place on defense?
I am glad to join the discussion and look forward to hearing your thoughts.
by upper left corner on Aug 25, 2008 6:46 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
The vices and virtues of a three guard lineup
Great first comment, could have been just as well a fanpost.
Maybe somebody with a lot of experience watching the game like you (or Dave?) could shed some more light on that issue of playing three guards at the same time. It has been brought up quite a bit in the past, but might now seem more attractive that we have seen how good Rudy AND Bayless could one day be so we want everybody to see enough minutes.
A) I can’t realistically imagine the Blazers starting with such a lineup. B) I would feel pretty comfortable trying it during stretches with our big guards and assumed strong frontcourt, and would be much more reluctant to do it with a PG that is 6’0 and two SGs that are like 6’3 and 6’4.
But I couldn’t really say against which teams (general characteristic lineups and/or specific current team examples) that could be more effective than playing with a more traditional wing like Martell or even a big forward like Travis and when it is clearly not. Other teams are using it at times, e.g. the Lakers last year pretty extensively with Fisher/Farmar, Vujacic and Kobe at the 3. But the team that maybe tried it the most extensively in recent years, the Phoenix Suns, pretty much admitted failure. Other thoughts and examples?
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
+1
Nice post!
Nate used three guard lineups last year, mostly in the 4th, often running Trout at PF. He did that to attack teams, either to get us back in the game or to keep them occupied with D. We will be even more wearing to play this season!
I have been thinking the same thing about a 3-guard set to get Rudy minutes late in games. I think right now it is works best with Rudy, Roy and Blake, at least until JBay proves he is a threat on the perimeter then maybe JBay lays at the 1.
How’s this for the current white unit:
JBay
Rudy
Trout
Frye
Pryb’zilla
Can or can’t touch that?
'77
Good White Unit
but didn’t Nate say he wanted to cut the rotation to 8 players? This has been a concern for me…
--
by CaptainSexyJacob on Aug 25, 2008 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Good discussion and thanks for posting
I agree with your premises on matchups offensively. It is hard not to have your three best scorers on the floor together (assuming they are). Some teams will not be a problem and others will post us up repeatedly with a big SF.
I think Martell is such an important player for us this year. Should he continue to develop, he can defend the SFs and he is a shooter. With GO and LMA we need complementary shooters, according to KP. And Travis is such a dynamic player we need him playing 20-25 minutes a game as well.
A three guard rotation this year is more likely to be Blake, Roy and Rudy with Bayless and Sergio fitting in the spaces. I personally like Roy and Rudy together because they present such defensive problems to the opponent and hope for Bayless long-term as a third guard who plays more minutes against a Tony Parker type and fewer against others. If Roy and Rudy start we can bring Bayless or Blake in to rest Roy or Rudy while the other continues in the game.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
Heard Martll on the radio last week and he seemed to think
that he and Outlaw would be in a “brutal” (his word) competition with Rudy for minutes. Not sure where he got that from but I’d say there’s some three guard lineups in our future.
Over-Analyzing
As fans, I suspect we tend to over-analyze without putting everything in context. We have to start with the fact that Rudy will not be playing against the all-stars everynight. It doesn’t matter if he’s “better than” a 6’7" Kobe or Wade, he simply has to be better than many of the players he’ll face in the NBA. Team USA had 3 SG’s, but there are 60 SG’s in the NBA that start or back up the starters on their teams, and most of those are 6’3" to 6’6", and none are as good as Kobe or Wade. The fact that Rudy had to struggle to defend Kobe or Wade should suprise no one, since the other 58 SG’s already in the NBA all have exactly the same problem. Every team that faces Bryant and Wade, after all, makes adjustments to their team defense to contain them, just as other teams make adjustments to contain Roy, and in the future, very likely Oden as well.
My read on Rudy is that he showed an offensive game that is as good as the better NBA players, and he showed a serviceable defensive game that will work most, but not all the time, and which can be improved.
To fairly evaluate Rudy, as a result, we should talk about whether or not he’s likely to be one of the top 10 offensive SG’s in the league, not one of the top 3, and whether or not he can effectively guard at least 15 – 20 of those SG’s already playing. And, to make this evaluation, we should look at the Blazers as a team, not just Rudy as an individual. After all, as good as Kobe is, without Pau, Odom, etc., his talent is wasted. Further, stop pretending that fouling Kobe or Wade is the same thing as fouling the other 58 SG’s. The bottom line, after all, is that the drop off between Kobe and Wade and the remaining SG’s is often signficant – and you’d be hard pressed to find any stats that suggest that most of those players could put up 22 pts in 17 minutes against either player.
If you can answer the above question, then you’ll have a better feel for how Rudy will fit into the Blazers in the context of the NBA – as opposed to the all-stars.
We don’t need another all-star. We need a solid SG that will eventually be in the top 20% – 25% over-all.
And if you believe he meets these criteria, then KP has picked up a solid contributor to the Blazers who will be a part of a championship run.
Greetings....
I just wanted to say, hello. As I said in my lengthy post just above yours, I have been lurking for a long time. I find that I consistently agree with your insights and arguments. I think you are one of the best contributors here at BE. I would be particularly interested in your response to the questions I posed in my comment above. Thanks!
by upper left corner on Aug 25, 2008 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions
I'll try to guesstimate the number of SGs that initially will give Rudy trouble (quickness, size, experience, whatever)
And by trouble I mean he can get a steal or prevent a shot at times, but overall will clearly give up more points against them than he can produce offensively.
Atlanta: Joe Johnson
Boston: Ray Allen
Charlotte: Jason Richardons
Chicago: Probably nobody if Gordon leaves (but he will show up at another team most likely)
Cleveland: Maybe Daniel Gibson if he doesn’t back up the point. Otherwise no problems against everybody not named LeBron
Dallas: Jason Terry
Denver: Allen Iverson
Detroit: Rip Hamilton
Golden State: Monta Ellis, Corey Maggette, Stephen Jackson depending on who plays where
Houston: Tracy McGrady
Indiana: Dunleavy maybe (size mismatch)
Clippers: Should be able to handle Gordon
Lakers: Kobe, maybe Vujacic can bother him
Memphis: Should have the experience to contain Mayo
Miami: Wade
Milwaukee: Redd (on defense)
Minnesota: Mike Miller, Rashad McCants maybe
New Jersey: Vince Carter (if he shows up)
New Orleans: Should be able to handle whoever plays SG
New York: Jamal Crawford (on defense)
Oklahoma: Do they want to play Durant on SG again? Then he wouldn’t see much time against him
Orlando: Should be able to handle Pietrus
Philadelphia: If Iguodala comes at SG no way, apart from that he should be fine
Phoenix: Barbosa, some trouble with Bell especially on offense
Sacramento: Kevin Martin
San Antonio: Manu Ginobili
Toronto: Should be able to handle Anthony Parker. The others are SF, right? Toronto might want a SG if we have have one too many
Utah: Might be able to handle Brewer, Korver is defensively weak but a great shooter
Washington: Caron Butler, DeShawn Stevenson maybe
So all in all this should be about 30 SG that have the edge over Rudy on most nights. Leaves 30 he should be able to handle.
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
Wow
You think he’ll clearly give up more points than he’ll score against 30 SGs in the league?
I don’t think that’s so clear at all.
You see, I watched that game. I would say that there might be 10 SGs who are clearly going to be better, another 10 who might be expected to take Rudy for more than they would give up. But really, there are only about 10, maybe 15, who I could say with any confidence will put clear blue water between themselves and Rudy. Maybe more will, maybe less.
Is Mike Miller so clearly that much better than Rudy? Jamal Crawford? Maggette? I don’t have any great confidence that those players would put up more points against Rudy than they would give up. I think you’ve overstated things here. I don’t think he’s a top 5 guard, I don’t think he’d have made the U.S. team. But if we start to talk about the top 15-20 SGs in the NBA, I don’t think you’ll get laughed out of court for asking if Rudy belongs in that conversation. Not after Sunday’s game.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
I loved Rudy as much as the next guy for the last year (see current profile pic)
But like with Oden I would first like to see him play a few games to one season against these guys before declaring him elite in the NBA. Kobe wasn’t an elite SG in his first two or three years (e.g. awful playoff performance hitting dreadful air balls galore, couldn’t stay in front of a lot of guys). As stated below under Eben Calder’s response, the list was my personal a quick crapshoot and not based on any metric. I think ultimately he can be a top 10 to top 20 SG in the league at least offensively and a pesky defender. Taking other players as examples, we just shouldn’t declare him Manu Ginobili before he hasn’t reached Kevin Martin, and not Kevin Martin before he hasn’t surpassed what his countryman Navarro did last year.
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
Fair enough to a point
My primary objection was to your use of the word “clearly”.
As I said, I don’t think that’s so clear at all. We simply don’t know what this guy is going to be, but I would say there is nothing clear about it. Sure, I think Kevin Martin will be able to put up good numbers on him, but I’m not sure it is so clear that he won’t be able to put up exactly the same numbers on Martin.
I’m not predicting it. But if a Kings fan said Martin is “clearly” much better, I would say, “How can you possibly know that?”
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
Thoughts
I doubt Mac want’s Roy guarding 3’s – it’s simply too much work, and even he could have problems matching up with 6’7" to 6’9" wings. However, I could see a three guard rotation in which each of three guards play 28 – 32 minutes or so. This is the more likely scenerio in my view. As sexy as the idea of playing small ball with Oden and Adlridge is, KP and Mac are much more likely to find the right wing to fit into the Blazers scenerio, than to try to use natural guards to fill in at the wing. Right now, they decided to let Jones go and focus on Webster and Outlaw. In the spring and next summer, if they aren’t entirely satisfied, then you can bet that we’ll see KP deal for someone who does fit this scenerio better.
Question...
Do you think it is more work to guard 3s than 2s? In the kind of a three guard rotation you and others are suggesting, who will guard the opposing “1” when Roy and Rudy are on the floor together?
by upper left corner on Aug 25, 2008 7:08 AM PDT up reply actions
I think you are only partly right on this
Roy could guard James Jones.
Roy can guard Bowen and Battier.
I think there are teams where we’ll see a three guard lineup, perhaps even to start the game. It depends on the matchups.
I also think we’ll see four guards get notable playing time this year, at least until the playoffs. The rotation may tighten in the playoffs.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
inescapable generality?
I watched every game Spain played and it was clear that Rudy was the second best player on the team in just about every one of those games. I thought it was a brilliant strategy by the coaches to put Rudy in after the first quarter knowing full well that, if Spain was going to have a chance in you-know-where, Rudy would need to be on the court with gas in the tank and fouls to give late in the game. The coaches from Spain also knew that Rudy would be guarded by one of the best one on one defenders on the planet in Kobe and having him fresh after Kobe’s already played 10 minutes is an edge that they wouldn’t have if Rudy had started. Dave made a great point about “protecting” Rudy’s defense but I don’t buy his paragraph about Rudy not being “Mr. Olympics” for Spain. He clearly is! The best thing to take away from this game is that Rudy will be able contribute in the role that is most realistic for this next year, coming off the bench as a dynamic play maker and scorer. And he’s proven this summer that he can do this against NBA competition playing at the highest level.
by rip_city_fan on Aug 25, 2008 7:05 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
+1
Great post. Nice to see someone actually do all their homework before critiquing.
To be Fair
To be fair, my comment needs to be leavened with the condition that small ball is a situational condition. By that I mean, when playing some teams, a Roy or even a Fernandez might be an acceptable defensive matchup against either their starting or backup SF – at which point Mac may see that he can exploit an offensive miss match by inserting a three guard lineup. In other cases, it might not work given an SF that would make it offensively difficult for Roy or Fernandez to guard.
My thoughts, being a Spaniard.
First- On Rudy off the bench:
Aito Garcia Reneses(and all Spain) knew, that if we(Spain) had a chance to win vs USA, (what means outscored a team which scores more than 110 points in FIBA basket) we needed the help of JC Navarro (second scorer last 4 years for Spain, just behind Gasol) who was playing very bad all the Olympics, and the best option was to put him as a starter.
And one of the signs of Aito(very respected in Spain & Europe) coaching is that he always think about his players like a whole team(12 players) and not like 5 starters and second unit, it’s difficult he repeats a lineup two games in a row. That’s can be aplied to other european coaches, and it’s very difficult(maybe impossible, I don’t understand why) to see in NBA, normaly starters +30 minutes and second unit about 15, playing in a league with 82 games in regular season.
I think Aito did a excellent job, the only bad point was spanish defense (the only match we play real defense was vs Croatia).
Other think two comment:
@Norsktroll: “His only remaining star guard was Navarro, who isn’t a very reliable scorer and in the second half proved that with a number of crazy floaters that luckily went in”.
Well, you haven’t watch any JC Navarro game in your life(I suppose) becouse those “crazy floaters that luckily went in” shots are THE PECULIAR SHOTS OF NAVARRO and believe me when I say he hits 75% of that shots which nickname are BOMBAS, the reason of Navarro nickname: LA BOMBA.
Pd: don’t you think NBA players make a lot of TRAVEL nowadays, because in Europe we can’t understand why the Olympics referees(FIBA rules) didn’t call USA players TRAVEL, what It’s allowed in NBA (I don’t understand either, because I think the rule in NBA is the same that FIBA ones, but referees just don’t usually call it, like this Olympics) and that could meant in 8 TO’s every game for USA. NOT AN EXCUSE just a point of wiew.
Blazers Fans are my boys, Celtics my bhoys.
About "than could mean in 8 TO's every game for USA
That’s why sometimes spanish players in the bench were shacking their towels like epilectics. LOL
Sorry for my language mistakes.
Blazers Fans are my boys, Celtics my bhoys.
traveling
It does indeed go uncalled many times in the NBA and perhaps in the gold medal game also.
LeBron and Wade get away with more travels than anyone in the NBA- honestly I didn’t watch closely enough to see if the same was true in the Olympic tournament.
On Kobe’s breakaway dunk where the Spanish bench went crazy asking for a travel, I did not see one. I didn’t see a good replay, so its possible he took an extra step, but in my opinion it did not merit the angry response of the bench.
—
Thanks for the perspective on the decisions made by Spain’s coaches. It sure was a great game.
Boomshakalaka
an Example
in the Olympics: http://www.megavideo.com/?v=PJ0H30RH
Believe me when I say that european referees usually call it in EuroLeague and they didn’t this Olympics. Those LB an K*** B***** doing 3 steps before bouncing the ball(is this expression correct?) are embarrassing for the players and SPECIALLY FOR THE REFEREES. Note: italian referee Lamonica always call travel even the stricter, his nickname in Europe is “TRAVEL Lamonica” and he didn’t call it this Olympics
Blazers Fans are my boys, Celtics my bhoys.
interesting
plays like that are never called traveling in the NBA. Its interesting that they were allowed in the Olympics also.
Boomshakalaka
FIBA rules and NBA rules on traveling differ
Under FIBA rules you would have to put the ball on the floor first before you can make a step (change the pivot foot), which is very similar to the college rules in the NCAA. In the NBA you have more flexibility for choosing a pivot foot in some situations, and can effectively make a first step before dribbling the ball. The exact wording is pretty complicated (section Section XIV-Traveling): http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_10.html
Especially for crossovers a lot of the US players should have gotten traveling calls all the time, but they didn’t. Yao also sometimes made several steps, and was nearly never called for it. The refereeing was better in this tournament, but still not great.
Oh, and I have seen Navarro play a lot in Memphis and for the last three international tournaments he played in. While I agree with your reasoning about a larger rotation and that he is a great player I don’t think floaters – even if executed well – are as reliable as a solid jumper or layup. Like a hook shot they are a secondary offensive shot if nothing else remains. And apart from this game as you point out too, Navarro and Calderon didn’t have a great Olympics tournament (Calderon even had more turnovers than assists, which is very unusual compared to his great stats last season).
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
Thanks
for the NBA rules explanation and link.
@Navarro: he played very bad for Memphis cause Iavaroni thought that he only can shoot 3’s, if you watched 06 World Tournament you could see his a great scorer, at least in FIBA basket. About “Bombas”, how I wrote he usually hits 75% so it’s a good shot for him, like sky-hook was for Jabbar: unstoppable.
And yea Calderón didn’t have a great tournament, but he was a huge lost for us in semis and final, because I think there are better PG than Raul Lopez like Carlos Cabezas and Sergio Rodríguez.
Blazers Fans are my boys, Celtics my bhoys.
It might make you happy that Memphis' fans stated they already miss Navarro
Don’t know if they appreciated his “Bombas”, but they did like what he did for them and didn’t want him to go back to Spain (which I guess was inevitable after he saw that they traded Pau and went into a kind of rebuilding phase around young players). I read that in several comments around Memphis’ ESPN message board and in a live blog from the Olympics similar to what we did here, but can’t come up with a link right now.
Most also look forward to getting the gritty playing style of Marc Gasol, after falling a little out of love with Pau when he played defense for them that was perceived as “soft”.
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
You're right
saying why JC Navarro comes back to Europe(club reason) but there is another reason, he owes Barcelona(his former club) 3million €, due to let him free last year to sign with Memphis and he was earning about 500 000 $ last year, and all we know who is the salary of the role players in NBA and he will be paid like a star in Barcelona.
About Gasol’s brother: Pau is not a good defender(sometimes in clutch time he is) but I can’t understand how some Memphis fans underrated him being his Star, playing his first play-offs for the franchise despite lost all games, and he has practically all franchise records.
Marc will be a good sign for Memphis but I don’t wanna lost my time discussing about Memphis cause they aren’t gonna be a good team in a long time. LETS TALK ABOUT BLAZERS!!!
Blazers Fans are my boys, Celtics my bhoys.
Comparisons to Rudy and Roy
Roy – Great player with few reliable options to go to, so had to do a lot on his own. Aldridge was really the only consistent option last year and he had to fight through a lot of double-teaming.
Rudy – Great player with few reliable options to go to, so had to do a lot on his own. Gasol was really the only consistent option and he had to fight through a lot of double-teaming.
Roy – Had to play with guards that you never knew what they were going to give you, from game to game.
Rudy – Had to play with guards that you never knew what they were going to give you, from game to game.
Roy – Often had to guard the top player, plus try to carry the team.
Rudy – Often had to guard the top player, plus try to carry the team.
Not to say, Rudy = Roy. Just pointing out that I think he did a great job with what he had to work with, same as Roy.
Player ratings are involved.
I tend to favor players who can handle the ball, make big plays, change the course of the game, have an immediate impact, and most importantly, make the other players on his team better. Clearly, using these criteria, Rudy was not the 13th or 14th best player on the floor during the gold medal game.
I could be wrong now. But I don't think so!
May I suggest ...
http://i36.tinypic.com/mkynva.jpg
http://www.myspace.com/y5k
by Y5k on Aug 25, 2008 12:09 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Norsktroll
By the way, great handle. Although I’d be a little curious as to how you arrived at it. Perhaps you were watching Tolkein, drinking whiskey, and had the flash?
I liked your response, because it puts it all in perspective. Granted, people could argue the relative merits of many of these players, but let’s face it. If Rudy starts, on balance, in the middle of the SG pack, then time playing would very likely take him into that top 20% to 25%, making him a very solid and productive player. Defense will come, I believe, because he’s quick and wiry and that should, given his height, make him effective against many of the other SG’s as well. On the offensive end, I suspect he’s already a better player than many. I scanned the list to consider who could actually “shut him down”, and there aren’t too many names I’d put in that category. In fact, combine his quickness with his constant movement to find open spots, and there’s a good number of those guards that are going to find him one major headache to guard.
I’d also point out that when he is on the floor, defensive assignments may be manipualted based on Roy, Bayless and Blake, as well as who the other team has at both the guard positions. We spend a lot of time talking about “who can play with Roy”, but I can see some nice matchups when Bayless and Rudy are both on the floor. Anyway, it’s going to be one very fun year.
KP brought us Aldridge and Roy, and now, in addition to Oden, we see some very good things in Rudy and Jerryd. And that’s nice. I doubt any other group of fans had the ability to watch their guy eat the competition in summer league, and then watch their other guy perform as well as Rudy did in the Olympics.
I do hope - and think - he will soon be "one major headache to guard"
My list was just a quick crapshoot of SGs I personally would deem better right now for various reasons, without having them seen against each other or based on any concrete criteria. Of course some teams as a unit will still be able to outmaneuver us with their backcourt and some who have just one strong player there won’t stand a real chance against multiple threats. Offensively Rudy in itself could be one with his outside shooting, passing and drives. Defensively Dave has a point that Rudy tends to not yet work well through screens and sometimes (too often) loses his guy to guard, standing in no mans land or falling behind the play. And players like these SGs would be able to exploit this pretty well.
Eventually, Rudy should have all the skills and physical abilities to become a top 20 or even top 10 shooting guard in this league. As said before, the real beauty is: We still have Brandon ahead of him. E.g. he ranked #5 in terms of wins produced last year, although he rarely is mentioned in comparisons of the top shooting guards in the media. This might change over time when the Blazers become more than a lottery team. http://www.wagesofwins.com/15SG0708.html
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
Dave, ease up a bit...
Dave,
Like everyone that comes to your blog and listens to you on the podcast, I certainly appreciate your very intelligent and non-biased insight. You certainly do a great job of keeping us crazed maniacs in check when sometimes we are out of control.
I do, however have to mention that I feel this post is certainly much more negative than it needs to be and am beginning to feel that one of your primary jobs is try to keep our excited Blazer fandom in perspective-which it might very well be.
Let us celebrate a little bit, cheer with us, get excited with us once in awhile. Enjoy life and enjoy the roses. Rudy had an amazing performance being guarded by Kobe Bryant and playing against the best players in the world and not only should that be recognized, but also should be the moxie with which he did it.
Rudy is a winner and has an incredible passion for the game. He has that certain something that will make him a champion. I don’t think those things should go unnoticed.
I appreciate your good work and click on your page every day while looking forward to the next updates, I just hope that you can keep your own self in perspective sometimes while you are trying to keep us in perpective as well.
by nedzadrules1 on Aug 25, 2008 12:46 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
No first quarter = no greatness?
Dave – I almost always agree with the primary theses of your posts. In previous Oden/Bayless/Rudy posts, you strike a nice balance between rationally recognizing why there is reason to be excited about three great prospects and rationally recognizing why they may not all be inducted into the HOF next year. Here, though, I think you miss the mark by jumping to an irrational conclusion.
For reasons better articulated by others (such as lee3022 and nakamura) above, the fact is we simply don’t understand how this eccentric first-year Spanish coach makes lineup decisions. Almost everything I’ve read about him says he’s unconventional in choosing his lineups, even by international standards, where minutes are much more evenly distributed, as it is. The fact that Rudy didn’t play in the first quarter was a strategic move, and it seems that it worked out, as he got in foul trouble as it was, but was still available down the stretch to help put a major scare into the US.
Aside from that, at least in the international context, you have to put Rudy up there on the list of the best players in Bejing. That won’t necessarily translate to the NBA right away, of course, but it’s hard to deny that he looked more valuable in the international setting than several of the US players. Off the top of my head, assessing him against perimeter players, I’d say he outplayed Redd, Melo, and Kidd, at the very least, and was on about the same level as D.Williams and CP3.
I suspect your take may have been influenced by the Dwight Jaynes’ blog post you linked to. I completely disagree with him on this point:
I watched every second of the gold-medal game and I still can’t figure out how Spain was able to keep it close. That’s because you can tell me all night about how good Juan Carlos Navarro is, what an international star Pau Gasol is, how terrific Ricky Rubio is and what a wonderful prospect Rudy Fernandez is — I’m sorry, those guys are good players but none of them would have had ANY CHANCE to make the U.S. team this summer, let alone start for it.
That’s a little ridiculous. Gasol, for one, would definitely make the US team and almost definitely start over Howard. He’s just a better international basketball player. That’s not even arguable.
Could Rudy make the US team? That’s a harder question. Maybe not, but I would argue that in this hypothetical choosing Redd over Rudy would be a big mistake. Redd is overrated as a perceived NBA “star” (he doesn’t contribute much to actual Ws) and his value to the team (shooting) is something Rudy does equally well, especially from the international line. And clearly, Rudy is a better passer/playmaker/ball handler than Redd. He’s also probably a better defender.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Aug 25, 2008 1:54 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Maybe this would be an interesting way to go with the conversation
Name the players you think Rudy would beat out or be a better choice than on Team USA.
—Dave
Okay, the US roster + Rudy and my rankings:
In Order of Current Greatness:
K*** B*****
LeBron James
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
D. Wade
Chris Bosh
Tayshaun Prince
Deron Williams
Carlos Boozer
[RUDY!!!!!!!]
Michael Redd
Carmelo Anthony
Jason Kidd
There are other NBA players that are great NBA players not on this list. Less than half the NBA all-stars fit on this 12-man roster. You can argue about the order of the US top 12, you can argue where Rudy (!!!) belongs on this list, if at all. But going 5-9 from three-point land, leading his team in scoring in 17 minutes, lighting up D Wade, juking K***, and dunking over Howard … how can you argue that was not a great and clutch performance?
Here is a stat for someone to calculate: against the NBA’s best players, what was Rudy’s +/- in this game? It’s gotta be huge! Every time he came in, Spain surged back in it. Every time he left, so did the air from Spain’s sails.
On perhaps the world’s biggest stage, in the finals against the world’s best, Rudy played lights out. A great performance against great players. Rudy is a great player. The only question is: “How great?” Of his future: “How bright?”
Yes, I think Nate and KP are pretty happy campers, right now.
'77
by LaoTzu on Aug 25, 2008 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
One thang 'bout Rudy
He sure knows when to “SHINE”
Big Game, Big Time Playah!
That is what I saw. I hope to see it again, I hope to see mo’
RUDY, RUDY, RUDY!
GO BLAZERS
"He doesn't let grass grow under his feet when there are points to be had." - Dave
by BlueBooYay on Aug 25, 2008 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hmmm
You think Rudy is a better player than Brandon Roy?
Sure, on the day, Rudy was better than some of those guys. In fact, for the tournament.
But if they’d been in the same key role for their team, who knows what they’d have done?
Let’s take from this what it obviously is — Rudy can play on the big stage against the best players in the world, and on a given day can even outplay them. That means he not only belongs in the NBA, he’s ready to contribute right now, and on some days will contribute at a very high level indeed.
It is not in the least evidence that he is a better player than any of them.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
Point taken
But I don’t think that I implied the Rudy is better than Roy. IMHO right now he is not. They are different players, and Roy has done even more with his talent than Rudy to this point, partly due to opportunity to play at a higher level.
'77
No, you didn't
But Brandon didn’t make that team, and few people would argue he should have.
Rudy had a great game. His performance on the day was far superior to most of the U.S. players. The only significant negative was fouling out when his team needed him (which is a pretty significant one).
But to argue based on one tournament that he’s a better player is pretty shaky. Remember, most of those players were simply role players, while Rudy was given the job of being a primary scoring threat. That means he had opportunities to shine which they lacked.
Let’s talk about Dwight Howard. Rudy had a far better game, a far better tournament. Yet you’ve ranked Howard above Rudy on your list. Why? Not based on that tournament, but based on his excellence in the NBA. Well, let’s see how Rudy does in the NBA first.
A case can be made that all of those players except maybe Kidd are among the top 40 players in the NBA. Pretty hard to argue against that.
I’m not ready to anoint Rudy one of the top 40 players yet. I’m not even sure he’s one of the top 5 on our team.
I’ve lost all doubt, though, that he’ll be a significant contributor this year, and will simply go out and single-handedly win some games for us.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
I will argue against Redd being a top 40 player
He’s only a top 40 guy if you look solely at PPG (or, of course, salary). He doesn’t generate wins for his team because he can’t play D, rebound, or score efficiently. The Bucks (an already atrocious team) are only slightly better with him on the court.
I’ll take Rudy over him all day. But other than that, I agree with you.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
I'm a reader
not a writer.
But I must say this post has brought some of the very best in information, comments, counterpoints, thought provoking conversation and uh….
Well it’s simply been a helluva read. Bravo to all of you.
The Oden Era, Day 423
my all tournament teams
first team:
G Kobe Bryant, USA
G Dwyane Wade, USA
F LeBron James, USA
F Pau Gasol, Spain
C Yao Ming, China
2nd team:
G Rudy Fernandez, Spain
G Manu Ginobili, Argentina
F Dirk Nowitzki, Germany
F Luis Scola, Argentina
F/C Chris Bosh, USA
Boomshakalaka
Don't forget Chris Paul
The guy we shoulda got, was key to the USAers from getting away from team ball. He would be on my team any day.
Dave
To be frank, what I find almost amusing about Howard’s blog – is the bafflement he exudes about “we were so much better than them – so how could they be almost as good? We should’ve beat them by 40 points, but didn’t. So, "WHY” didn’t we? I don’t get it." (In fact, team USA came a lot closer to losing it than made them comfortable).
Poor Dwight. The lesson my talented young man is that good teams generally beat better individuals. If these stars with their egos could learn to play effectively together and leave their egos at the door, they wouldn’t need any stars – and they’d win by 40 points. Kobe should “never” have to be a “go-to” guy on a team with Lebron, Wade and the rest. When that happens, it’s because the team isn’t operating effectively as a team.
And that’s one reason why the Olympics, like summer ball, is often deceptive. The international players don’t necessarily play together all that much more than American’s, but they’re dangerous because Americans often put more emphasis on their individual statistics, than on the team.
It’s one reason I like what KP and Mac are doing. Teamwork is a culture, and it begins at the top. Championships are won by teams – including Olympic gold medals. I often think back to those two sensational years with Walton. Walton was one of the finest team players outside of Russell to ever play the post. The other players were good, but not one was a hall of famer – nor ever expected to be.
The success of the Blazers will not be reflected in the team stats we so often quote – but in championships. Fernandez does not have to be a hall of famer, nor does Bayless nor even Outlaw, Aldridge, Frye or Webster. They need to merge all of their offensive and defensive talents into the team. If they can do that, then I suspect we already have the talent to make it to the top.
The Americans would have had larger margins...
if they could make a stinkin’ free throw. There must be something about the trapezoidal lane that throws off their stroke.
I agree
Basketball is a TEAM SPORT, so the winners are always the best TEAM, not the best collection of individuals, and this is a culture in Europe(and in NBA should be if you wanna win the ring) and USA didn’t respect this last 6 years till this tournament.
TEAM WORK TEAM WORK TEAM WORK. GO BLAZERS!!!!!!!
Blazers Fans are my boys, Celtics my bhoys.
Rudy and Bayless
Someone above made an excellent statement about having the standout player from the Summer League and the standout International player from the Olympics on our team. Not to mention the most feared new entry into the NBA: Greg Oden.
Do you think we’ll escape the radar?
by dvcastle on Aug 25, 2008 4:29 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Most feared?
You must imagine NBA players are as gullible and susceptible to hype as you are.
There’s a difference between being optimistic about Oden’s impact, and then actually fantasizing about NBA personnel being fearful of Greg Oden.
Get real.
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
they fear him cuz he's a monster!!
muahahahahaha
by BroyTheTruth on Aug 25, 2008 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Most feared!
Just because I’m gullible and susceptible to hype doesn’t mean I’m wrong.
by dvcastle on Aug 25, 2008 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know you don't want Oden to be good
But Oden will be feared soon enough and it isn’t out of line to think of Oden, who should be a defensive BEAST, as ‘striking fear into the hearts of all ne’erdowells’, in NBA terms.
Ya also don’t really need to be so condescending when ya disagree with someone. Yeah, no one is afraid of anyone LITERALLY. But on the court, Oden will make the enemy “afraid” to go inside or they will get their shot blocked.
There’s being gullible and there’s being in denial. Since we both just gotta wait till Oden plays to see what he does, neither of us can say with certainty we are correct. I betcha I’m more correct.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on Aug 26, 2008 2:38 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed
It’s probably true that, as of this moment, NBA players don’t fear GO. But that will change after they experience his shotblocking prowess first-hand. GO doesn’t just block shots—he makes guys look bad in the process. NBA athletes fear embarrassment. E.g., no one wants to be “posterized.” Guys will go out of the way to avoid getting their shots swatted—even to the detriment of the larger goal: winning the game.
When GO was in games @ Ohio State, opposing teams’ points in the paint practically disappeared. (Sorry: I heard the stat once but don’t recall it exactly and can’t post a link to it.) That’s the power of fear. It’s a great weapon to have on your side, and the Blazers will this season.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
You're right. I want Oden to be great.
He is capable of realizing his potential and exceeding expectations, and I hope he antagonizes and frustrates the team I root for with his stellar play. Am I a masochist? No. But basketball just isn’t as interesting without conflict and great competition.
I know Oden has excellent timing, which is a key attribute for a dominant shot blocker to have, and when you factor in his potential and physical tools, there’s a strong likelihood his shotblocking prowess will make his opponents hesitant, fearful of being rejected.
But that doesn’t happen until Oden establishes himself in a league where he has yet to play a regular season game.
Also, I am never condescending. That’s just what I allowed you to think. Kyahaha.
No, but seriously I’m just kind of an anti-homer, and homerism makes me kind of surly.
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
The post to which you objected
said Oden is the most feared new entry into the NBA. Who do you think is feared more?
Rose? Not “feared”.
Beasley? Not really.
LOLpez?
People don’t know what Oden will be, but they fear what he might be.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
by jscot on Aug 26, 2008 4:13 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I fear Beasley will sit on South Beach, look over the water and think "I can be like Melo without even working on it"
Just kidding, the guy will be good and maybe post the best numbers of all rookies not named Greg, but I have a hard time seeing him as a future All-Star right now. He is in between the PF and SF spot, and Miami will need some time figuring out where he fits best.
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
Right now...
…I could see Beasley eventually (like, after his rookie season) putting up huge, Melo-like offensive numbers but not leading his team to anything. Of course, he’s on the same team as Wade, who has proven he can will a team to a championship.
So, Beasley could look like a winner when really he’s just another Melo.
And since Beasley will be on a team that should be decent, alongside the re-built and re-awesome Wade, and Beasley will have really nice numbers, he’ll prolly be a perennial allstar.
This could help Beasley’s rep exponentially, especially when compared to Melo who gets criticized for not leading his team out of the 1st round (even though he has taken his team to the playoffs since he was a rookie). There won’t be a lot of difference between how they help their teams “win”, but Beasley will be in a better situation because Dwyane Wade and Shawn Marion will deflect all of the pressure on Beasley to carry a team.
Mortimer
I also
could see Beasley as a perennial all-star. But I don’t think people fear him.
I just don’t think he’s the guy that is going to be a threat to take over and dominate a game every time he steps on the floor. And there’s a lot of people who think Oden will be exactly that, and not just Blazer fans, either.
Or, to put it another way, if you asked GMs whether they would rather have Oden or Beasley, even with the injury, most would take Oden.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
Ahhhh, sorry, I wadn't refuting that
Yeah, I agree. No one is scared of undersized PF “Beastley”.
Oden has a real possibility of COMPLETELY effecting the defensive end as soon as he steps on the court, and I’m one of those fellows who believes he’ll be a much better scorer than people are expecting as well.
I guess I was refuting Norkstroll’s CRAZY, INSANE, INANE, IN-PERPLEXING belief that Beasley wouldn’t be an allstar in the future. Can you believe that jerk?! I used to trust Norsktroll and like to read what he writes but I don’t know if I can ever trust anyone any more.
Everyone knows that every rookie will be exactly what people think they will be based upon their draft order and pre-draft hype. Beasley will score 30ppg, 13rebs, and inspire his team with his wacky antics.
Oden, once he starts playing, will inspire a lot of teams to take more jumpers.
Mortimer
"Oden, once he starts playing, will inspire a lot of teams to take more jumpers."
That wouldn’t make a bad tag line…
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Wrong again, Morty
Not “every rookie” will be exactly what people think they will be baded upon their draft order and pre-draft hype.
Trailblazer rookies are BETTER than their draft order and pre-draft hype. I have said so, and thus it is true.
And the real importance of that statement is that Greg Oden was #1. Now, how you can exactly be better than that draft order, I don’t know, but Greg will show us how.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
Greg will be better than #1
By being heads and shoulders and legs and knees better than Derrick Rose, THIS year’s #1.
If anyone can be better than #1, it is Greg Freaking Oden, the Black Emancipator.
Mortimer
Under the radar
I noticed that a large number of “games to watch” on various sites for this upcoming season include specific mentions of Greg Oden. With the obligatory mention that he might not be healthy, of course.
I can’t imagine what pot-of-gold luck outsiders must think we’re swimming in to include Rudy and Jerryd for this upcoming season.
Under the radar? Maybe not!
None of the above.
Aside from Channing Frye, whose testimony substantiates the claim that Oden is feared or fearsome?
I don’t object to predictions that Oden will be feared; it is the claim that Oden is feared despite not having established himself in the NBA that is objectionable.
I could trumpet Rose’s speed and court vision and athleticism until spit formed at the corners of my mouth, if I were a Bulls homer. I could trumpet Beasley’s inside-outside game, if I were a Heat homer. But what I would be doing, in actuality?
I’d be assuming that the reputations they had established in college against inferior competition holds up against the superior competition they’ll be facing in the NBA.
Kind of presumptuous, don’t you think?
Who is the most feared? At this juncture, who can answer that question?
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
"Most Feared" Rookie
Okay, admitting that is one weird category, it’s gotta be Oden, right? Who else is feared at all. You look around the league, and I would say there are guys out there that think, wow, that old man could crush me. He will dunk on my face. How do I change my game to get past him on the inside?
OR IS IT JUST ME? :)
'77
A perfect example of a Greg Oden fantasy.
This is a more detailed specimen, where the imagined disease of odenphobia © is presented in the form of an interior monologue.
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
October 28th, opening night...
Mark it on your calender and please join us in the gameday thread, that should be a fun night…
RUDY > MJ
Do you actually read any national commentators?
Every time the Blazers are mentioned, they mention “great young talent” and then add, “And they’re adding Greg Oden.”
Maybe we’re just batting semantics around. You don’t object to predictions he will be feared. Why? Because of his potential. Everyone knows his potential is immense.
I’m saying he’s feared because of his potential. Not that they fear him right now, but they fear what he might be, and the impact that will have on the Trailblazers.
Didn’t you notice several teams went into “win now” mode last year at mid-season with the trades they made? Why do you think that was? I’ll give you three reasons:
1. LA got Gasol, and teams thought if they didn’t win last year, when Bynum came back, LA was going to be too tough for them.
2. Chris Paul stepped up to MVP-type player, and NO suddenly looked like a team that was going to be very, very tough to beat in a couple of years, as they matured.
3. Portland showed that they had a lot of talent besides Oden, and their weakness was inside, where the hyped “most dominant center” in a decade was just waiting to step in. All of a sudden, Portland looked like a potential 60 win team, starting in 09-10 at the latest, and for years to come.
Three feared teams in the West, Portland one of them, and to a large extent (though not exclusively) because of Oden. Oh, Utah will be thereabouts, and as long as Duncan is able to play a little ball, San Antonio will be very tough. But there are three teams that make people afraid that they might not even be able to compete with them in a couple of years.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
by jscot on Aug 26, 2008 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Another can of worms.
That’s a really difficult case to make. It’s not unthinkable that GMs considered Oden, anticipated the impact he’d make, and used that assessment to inform their personnel moves. But has any GM gone on record and said that? If not, there are more compelling interpretations of the “win now” mid-season acquisitions.
I don’t think any of your reasons apply to the deal the Suns made with the Heat. Their new GM Steve Kerr wanted to implement a more traditional style of basketball, with an emphasis on defense. He also wanted to avoid losing disgruntled all-star, Shawn Marion, for nothing, because he found the Suns’ contract extension offer unacceptable. Those philosophical and fiscal factors had more to do with this trade than anything else, I believe.
If you’ll recall, Lebron James was a bit irritated with the contract snafus w/ Varejao and what’s-his-face earlier in the season. Later he was outspoken about his hopes of a major acquisition, specifically Jason Kidd. The Cavs were compelled to placate their superstar, and demonstrate they’re committed to fielding a competitive, if expensive, roster. This move had more to do with making Cleveland attractive to James when he’s eligible for free agency; and less to do with external issues.
And the Mavs’ Mark Cuban has been in “win now” mode ever since I can remember.
Some LAL fans like to think(and gloat about how) GM Mitch Kupchak masterminded the shakeup in the Western Conference. But in my mind it had more to do with internal issues; they weren’t “panic moves” or counter-moves.
I think player development and the continued improvement of Chris Paul, Tyson Chandler, David West, Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldridge, Andrew Bynum, and Deron Williams is a key factor in the power-shift in the Western Conference. Oden is another variable in that equation. Once mediocre teams like LAL, NO, and UTA are suddenly division champs; and age, injuries, and cap inflexibility has more to do with the decline of teams like SA(although SA is still an elite team, they’re not getting any younger), DAL, PHX, DEN.
But I just don’t see a link connecting player development with the aforementioned moves.
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
Not to pile on Dave any further, but...
Take the most beautiful supermodel on the planet. Look hard, long, and up close enough, and you’ll perceive flaws. Keep looking and obsessing further, and those flaws will eventually become so magnified that you’re no longer blown away by the woman’s obvious beauty.
What’s that got to do with Rudy? Did you notice how he got free for “The Dunk?” Kobe Bryant—arguably the best (if most loathsome) basketball player on the planet—made the exact same type of defensive gamble that Dave crucifies Rudy for making. It backfired. In fact, Kobe spent a good portion of the game making similar gambles with similar results.
My point is that if Dave were to train his microscope on Kobe, Wade, or LeBron for an entire game, he’d notice plenty of other defensive lapses and other imperfections in their games. He’d even note many stretches where those great players simply coast, conserving energy for their dramatic late-game offensive heroics. By contrast, Rudy was remarkably active at all times in all Spain’s games (and I did watch them all). He was a ball of frenetic energy, making plays (OK, and mistakes) all over the place.
Do I think Rudy is a better player than Kobe and those others? Of course not. He needs to mature and become more efficient at both ends. But if you judge him by the same standards as you do other players, you’ll see he’s already a remarkable hoopster. I have no doubt Nate McMillan has come to that conclusion after watching Rudy score 22 points in 17 minutes against the Redeem Team.
As I wrote above, I’ll bet Kobe would pick Rudy over several Redeem Team members. The guy is talented, energetic, unselfish, and, like Kobe himself, fearless. As Snapper Jones said, Rudy is a “difference-maker.”
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
by hurryup09 on Aug 25, 2008 5:05 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Agreed
For some reasons, the US players get a pass for their international play as long as the team wins. That’s fine, but let’s no overlook their horrid free-throw shooting or energy-conserving defense. I think too many of the players watched tape of Jordan, Pippen and Drexler dunking over no-names waiting to get autographs in ’92. Americans still expect to just show up and collect their medals.
The fact is Rudy scored 22 points in 17 minutes against credible NBA defenders. Who knows what might have happened if he wasn’t in foul trouble?
by torsoheap on Aug 25, 2008 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Contradiction
I actually agree with what you are saying about the US not playing active defense, but then you say in your second statement that Rudy scored 22 point in 17 minutes against credible defenders. Yes some of the defenders (Kobe foremost among them) are credible if not exceptional but that’s only relevant if they are trying.
Anyway, you make one argument against the defensive capabilities of the US team in international play but then use that same defensive play as the crux of your second argument about the offensive capabilities of Rudy.
by portlandpete on Aug 26, 2008 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Are you saying
that Team USA was not trying to stop Rudy in the 4th Quarter, when Spain got back within 4 points?
'77
Great!
Kobe Bryant—arguably the best (if most loathsome) basketball player on the planet
LOL
"He doesn't let grass grow under his feet when there are points to be had." - Dave
Very good post.
Dave we love you, but if you spend the entire olympics watching one player then you’re going to notice everything bad. Wade, Lebron, Kobe, Paul and others all made many of the same mistakes Rudy has made. Rudy is without a doubt a big time iron clad player on that Spanish team. The decision to sit him for the first quarter was not because he wasn’t good enough to start. It was a brilliant strategy to help counter the US depth and let him go against some worn starters. JC has worked better when starting, and without Calderon playing Spain would really need a big time guard coming off the bench because Rubio will be tired instead of fresh by the 2nd quarter. By starting JC and Rubio Rudy was able to come in and take over the game for his team. He kept the floor spread, shot threes, disrupted the US offense a few times and had some really impressive passes.
Really, it was because Rudy is as good as he was that he came in later to provide what he did.
SPANISH COAC DECISION
Hello from Spain. I read Dave post and I don’t agree what he said basically because his opinion is based on a little information he has of how spanish coach (Aito Garcia) mind works.
First you have to know Aito Garcia has more than 30 years of experience in the spanish league ACB managing always strong squads. His accomplishments have been huge not just in Spain but in Europe. The first years he was always very criticized by fans and media basically because he made decisions which were not expected by the standards of basketball. he always has been an innovative. Nowadays he is like god. Whatever action he does is well received in spanish basketball. So what I’m trying to say is that you can expect the most odd thing from him. In fact journalists try to reveal what his decissions will be and they never guess correctly.
To me the most incredible action Aito made lately was to play a teenager (Ricky Rubio) when he was 14 yo (2004) in the professional spanih league (ACB). Anyway not playing Rudy the whole first quarter in the final game was something really odd. I think he didn’t play Rudy simply because Nate McMillan was in the enemy bench. I try to explain myself. Aito was the coach when Rudy played his first game in ACB when h was 17 yo. He knows Rudy for 6 years. I think Aito thought Rudy was so excite (so he might hurt the team) to impress his next coach (Nate) so he decided to leave it into the bench at the beginning just to calm him down. Moreover Navarro made a wonderful work by starting instead of Rudy so no need to break Navarro momentum because Navarro needs time to be hot. I think this is the only reason why Rudy doesn’tplay any second the first Q.
Another fact American people don’t know is that once Rudy announced he was going to play Portland in 2008-2009 Aito Garcia announced he was leaving the DKV Joventud ( I recall Aito and Rudy were in the same club the last 6 years). Last year it was rumors that if Rudy is gone to NBA Aito would resign. So it is a clear link between Rudy and Aito. If Rudy have decided to play DKV Joventud next year Aito would keep his job as coach of DKV. This just tells you how important is Rudy into Aito’s scheme. He doesn’t coach the same team after losing Rudy.
Another fact all of you don’t know is the way of thinking of Aito which obviously is not the same than NBA standards regarding the starters. He has said a lot of times that for hm the most important players are not the five starters but he five who finish the game. This is documented by spanish media a lot of times.
About his defense to me it is excellent. You say he ends in a no man lands but this is so because of the defensive strategy Aito likes. Rudy makes what european people call helping so he gives up his man to help the strong side. This is done so because Aito orders him to do that. If Nate tells him not to do that I am sure he will defend his man as Nate likes becuase he is a disciplined player.
Finally just want to say American people congrats because of the gold medal and to the blazers fans congrats too because you have a really special player who we have enjoyed all these year in Spain. I’ll be a blazer fan as long as Nate give Rudy at least 20-25 minutes.
by cbp on Aug 25, 2008 5:43 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Dave likes to open discussion and has done a fine job.
cbp,
Thank you for your response.
Into the “Mind of a Mad Man”
Nah, just a Coach (Aito, tryin’ to Win).
Iluvs my “Bombas”
Thank you, for sharing these things.
"He doesn't let grass grow under his feet when there are points to be had." - Dave
Thank you cbp for taking the time to explain Aito's coaching style.
I hope to see more posts in the future.
cheers
Well, Jane, it just goes to show you, it's always something! If it's not one thing, it's another! -Roseanne Roseannadanna
I TOTALLY AGREE
Another Spanish joining the Blazers fanclub. ;)
Saludos compañero.
Blazers Fans are my boys, Celtics my bhoys.
Love the input from all the ACB fans
Thanks for the insight. Hope you can catch some NBA games this year and provide some context for Rudy’s transition to the league.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
Be sure
I’m Spain we got a channel that shows a free NBA game every friday and Portland will be a must see team. There is a satellite channel too which shows more games during the week, but for who can’t pay this like me, there is internet. wuhahaha.
Blazers Fans are my boys, Celtics my bhoys.
Hola cbp y Nakamura.
A ver si bajáis el nivel de inglés que me hacéis quedar en ridículo, machos. ;)
Desde Santander.
The Midnight Rambler
Hei
Que pasa!! Que bueno que escribais en este foro porque es interesante conocer como ven el baloncesto desde el otro lado del Atlántico. Os recomiendo que te pases por www.rojadirecta.com si no lo conoceis todavía.
No te creas que yo tampoco me sobro con el inglés, ;)
Saludos desde Lorca, Murcia.
Blazers Fans are my boys, Celtics my bhoys.
Dwight.....
Had read more then a few times the Spaniards coach ran some different substitution patterns, yet the first thing Dwight James does is compare Rudy not starting to Rasheed Wallace and Darious Miles ….. I think this was a very well thought out strategy and in fact it more then kept the game interesting. It has been a beautiful day , fall is just around the corner……I think there will be a long winter ahead for Dwight to rain on our Parade!. Wonderful post cbp very insightful thank you for your thoughts….on a sadder note my heart goes out to all who knew or where family with Kevin Duckworth, great man great player you will be missed.
And Again, Is This One Of The Best Dave Post's
Ever? Dave, today you have become my SUPER DAVE
cbp, you are a sprinkle of spice on everything nice, thank you for your comments.
Trust me, Rudy will be OVERWHELMED by the Rose Garden and us the fans of the Blazers.
Only your world cup can rival how much we love our Blazers. Think not? Just ask him after this season. He will tell you it is true.
The Oden Era, Day 423
new guy's thoughts
Hi, guys, I just joined to get in on this conversation. (I’m not a Trailblazer fan, but I’m a big Oden fan, so I’ll probably visit this blog a bit).
Regarding Team USA, I just wanted to say that Kobe was clutch down the stretch, but D-Wade and Lebron were the real heroes of the tournament. I am confident that Wade (and probably Lebron) could have handled the load just as well at the end, but both deferred to Kobe’s seniority.
Regarding Rudy, I think some of you are just trying to hedge your excitement. This kid looked absolutely fantastic. I agree that Sunday he was the third best guy on the court (after Wade and Kobe), and all tournament long he has been stellar. I read nothing into the fact that he didn’t start. As much as Spain spreads the ball around, he was the go-to clutch player at the end. Most important he (and Rubio too) played to the moment — against talent beyond what they’re used to playing. This is a rare quality among shooters have (Horry, Reggie Miller). His defense seemed reasonably good to me considering he was guarding Kobe. But even if he wound up stinking at defense, he’d still make one hell fo a sixth man at a minimum. I’d rather have him than Toni Kukoc. Toni won several championships as a “instant offense” sixth man. With the kind of talent you guys already have, that may be all you need.
by keephopealive on Aug 25, 2008 7:31 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Thanks for the stop by
keep on coming…..it is addictive. Sounds like you are half way to being a Rudy fan anyway and once you get a taste of Roy…..you will be the newest Blazer convert
Norsktroll -"Carlos Boozer.............is known in China as "Fan Gu Zai," which, loosely translated, means "Betrayal Skull Guy."
by 92wastheyear on Aug 25, 2008 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Thank you
Our hope is quite Alive
May yoiurs be as strong 
"He doesn't let grass grow under his feet when there are points to be had." - Dave
Glad to see another Oden fan join the mix
Same story here (go Bucks), but I think I’m more firmly entrenched on the Blazer bandwagon than you are. I’m not sure who I’m rooting for if they happen to run into the Cavs in the finals sometime soon. We got lucky he ended up on a team so easy to root for.
On the complete flipside, it’s utterly impossible to root for Memphis (where Conley ended up). Just a reprehensible organization, since West left. They should be disbanded and make all the players free agents.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
Reprehensible might be a little strong
It’s not like they’ve committed any major human rights violations, or left the cap off the toothpaste, or something. Let’s substitute “completely inept.”
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
It's a reference to
the classic American film “Scarface” (the remake with Al Pacino) where this Cuban gangster arrives in Miami and just starts taking over, climbing over the dead bodies of all his rivals.
A must see.
In the final scene, the character confronts like a hundred SWAT Team-armed DEQ agents. He stand behind his desk with this incredible moutain of cocaine on it holding this massive machine gun. Pacino to the police: “Say hello to my little friend.”
So, I was comparing Rudy to the character in this film, and I guess to his huge machine gun. All assuming Rudy will go huge in the NBA.
You cool with that?
'77
i like it....
except he wasnt shooting the police, it was a bunch of assassins……
its like my favorite movie, had to make the correction
by BroyTheTruth on Aug 26, 2008 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
They sent Gasol to the L@kers
To treat a foreign visitor in that way is almost a major human rights violation. The only excuse is that, well, I never liked Pau anyway.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
Go Bucks
I’m actually an OSU professor, but I like Oden based mainly on his ability and his character, then the few months he spent at OSU.
If he regains his health and becomes the player he can be, I could envision the Trailblazers winning the championship as early as the 2009-2010 season. They have an embarrassment of riches in the terms of talented players, and unlike the late 1990s team, they will have a couple of ultra-talents (Roy, Oden) to get them over the hump. I actually think Rudy might be one too — he’s better than Ginobili was at the same stage.
by keephopealive on Aug 27, 2008 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions
New Brandon Roy video, thought I'd post it here. It isn't on the Blazers site yet but I managed to get a hold of it
and upload it.
Cool Video!
Umm, just one thing I am wondering – who are you and/or who do you know – how did you get it first?
Just kidding – nice score on the video.
LMA>LA!
LMA's reign as "LaMonster of the Low Post" has just begun!
Actually Casey had the Blazer's video of the same press conference
up on Center Court Blog on August 20th. But thanks for the link.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
Note to Nate: Remember the Lesson of Drazen Petrovic
I’m excited for the season to start, but so leery on how Rudy will be integrated into the team. Back in ‘89 when we got Drazen, there was a lot of excitement for what he’d bring to an already talented team. In the end, it wasn’t much because Adelman couldn’t or wouldn’t find a way to work his unique talents into the Blazers in a consistent manner.
I’m particularly happy that Rudy had a good showing in the Olympics – so it will raise his profile about what can be expected in his game here in the NBA. I just hope he gets the minutes he needs to show what he can do. Drazen never did, and he ended up an NBA All-Star for another team – just like Clyde predicted.
I love Adelman
Rick is a great NBA coach, IMHO. He could easily have two or three rings. But he doesn’t. Some of that could be creativity. He invokes his style of play, which is great fun and smart, but he also stays home on his talent maybe too much. He lives off what works but sometimes that leaves behind what might work better.
I agree that we need to find time to see what works for which player(s). KP says this year is the year to see what parts of his experiment work out best, to see what role each player will take on in this championship chemistry lab.
'77
In Rick’s defense, no one had really seen anything like Drazen. He was so … upright – almost mechanical. His accuracy was terrific though, and no one outworked Drazen, no one. I just grew frustrated because Danny Young made less mistakes so Rick played him so much more. I just feel if a little more had been invested in Drazen’s transition, we would have maybe gotten over the top in the glory years.
Great post and great follow-ups...
I’ve been an avid reader for some time and just registered after reading through this string so that I could say, “thank you.” I especially love our newest members from Spain chiming in to share their thoughts and insights.
Keep it comin’
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