[OT] Taking Offense
Well, here we go
I have heard a LOT on Blazer's Edge about being offended of late. Sophia's latest hotbed of controversy notwithstanding, there's been tons of mouth-covering and hand-wringing of late. Before that was the T-Rex, the Pritchslap and so on. It seems that, next to cheerin' BEdgers love them some gettin' offended.
I recently read the excellent Basketbawful post concerning just this issue. Honestly, it opened my eyes to not only what's going on within sports but what's going on within the blogosphere in general.
To summarize (at the risk of its ruination - again, I suggest you read it), I'd say that it introduces a new concept - new to me, anyway: Getting offended for the sake thereof.
No one's for it
It's not to say that I'm in any way in favor of genocide, slavery, sexism, Old School-ism or New School-ism, but, to quote my pals Gang Starr:
If we're not schooling the youth WITH wisdom
then the sins of the father will visit the children
And that's not keepin it real...
that's keepin it -- WRONG
After all, isn't the hoopla over a picture of a bunch of Spaniards slanting their eyes a little different from, say, a picture of a bunch of self-satisfied people at the site of a lynching? On a very direct level, I find the former "racist" and the latter "inhumane". In this BEdger's opinion the difference is a finite and terminal one: one image connotes a misapplication of differences, the other, hatred and its ugly, dreadful and deathly results. Or better yet, the record of such.
What good does it serve to be up-in-arms about this photograph? What good do 100 BEdgers accomplish by defining their morals through the gauntlet-like comment section of Sophia's post? Do we become better people? Maybe. Does the world become a better place? Doubtful. Possibly, we learned what this community as a whole feels towards the issue, but is that really helpful? Is that getting us anywhere - that a group of tenuously like-minded people are in agreement, far, far away from where the perceived conflict is 'raging'?
One could say that any and all racism is evil and that we should never tolerate any such act. Fine. I won't argue that - any time you limit your perception of someone by their physical characteristics is harmful and negligent. It's also to one's own detriment. I'm not arguing that and would take issue with anyone who does. However, there's a palpable difference between being offended by a picture spread across the internet and being offended by a cruel and often deadly cultural norm, no? Does anyone else find irony in our collective display of moralism concerning a picture when other, much more real issues are at stake? Why hasn't there been a Darfur fanpost? What about a Black inner-city one?
I, for one, am offended by photographs by what they relate. Pictures of concentration camp internees (while creepy in their own right) offend me because they're living proof of what people can do to others. The photos taken during the Vietnam conflict raise similar feelings within me. Same with the aforementioned photographs of lynchings. That said, I'm not afraid of depictions of differences within the human race's colors any more than I'm afraid of the differences themselves: none. The Nazis used caricatures of hooked noses and enlarged lips to slander the Jews and Blacks respectively, and because of their nefarious motivations, I'm offended. I heard a tall, white, friend of a friend dressed up in bandages and shoe polish to portray Sam Bowie on Halloween, and that doesn't really offend me. To wit, because of past (and lesser-so present) racial disharmony, may I never dress up as Brandon Roy on Halloween? Am I forever relegated to the Steve Blakes of this world, simply because of my skin color?
Wouldn't it be a better world if we could enjoy some silliness (racially ridiculous though it may be) without conjuring such closeted demons as slavery and oppression? I'm a youngster at 25 years of age and grew up doing the "Chinese, Japanese, dirty knees, look at these" rhyme in first and second grade, but would certainly say I'd never, child or adult, partake in any activity that included harming another member of the human race because of Asian features. Isn't it worth considering that this Puritanical, knee-jerk reaction to all things potentially racist is more of a symptom of the ills that preceded us?
Certainly, it's still a problem, and sure, it's best to stand ever-ready to vilify and disparage any wrongdoing, any steps outside the boundaries of ill-will towards fellow human, but is that what's really going on, here? I'm yet, in my experience with Slant-gate, to encounter one Chinese group denouncing this photograph. [Update: ptwnblazer informs me that the Chinese at the ensuing game were pissed. My bad.] Are we, perhaps, defending a culture for a slight that they themselves don't find hurtful? Are we, perhaps, finding offense in a context-less Spanish act that has not been received as such? Are we, perhaps, being offended because it simply triggers our learned sense of righteousness or because of our well-hewn sense of shame? Neither? Both?
Here's where I use The Lost World to make my point
In the sequel to Jurassic Park, there's a scene where the protagonists are chilling next to some nice, kind-looking dino-lizard. One remarks on how it doesn't know to be scared of them (being humans) and the other shocks it with a cattle-prod or something and says "now they know". One could assume that, for the rest of its days on Isla Sorna, said dino was wary of all humans and their machines. Perhaps it even told its main homies to watch out for the two-legged pink guys. And perhaps rightly so, but not every human is an electrocutioner just as not every joke is a genocide.
Isn't that sort of what's going on here? The slanty-eyed picture isn't hurting anyone, I don't think. Using Kevin Pritchard's name in a pun potentially connoting violent interaction isn't, either. The discussion seems more to do with what feelings these entities raise to the surface, and that argument could go on forever as we all have different feelings raised by any or all of these hot-button artifices. We could sit around all day arguing whether a Rorschach card is "moral", couldn't we?
If the eye-slanting made anyone of Asian descent feel bad, then that was an obvious misstep. If Nike's recent advertisement equating genitals forced in people's faces with negativity made people feel unwelcome, likewise. However, there's a chasm between an act of hatred and bad PR. In my opinion, these issues don't need to be hashed over - they're symptoms of a greater ill. These unlikely scions of "morality" aren't the source of our consternation; it's the source of the feelings that they bring up that should receive our scrutiny.
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ok
variations of the same vain
if mother taresa helped an old lady across the street, is that any better then gahndi loving a nation, demenstrated though personal risk and devoted peaceful protest? maybe gahndi gets the vote for this one. If thats really the question. Both actions are just variations of the same strain.
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
Huh? I’m not sure I follow.
Are you saying..
Mother Teresa = Photo of slanty-eyes
Gandhi = Racism
.. except the ‘good’ versions of each?
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
If you watched the game, you would have heard the croud BOOOING
every spanish posetion, every free throw. the cinese were insulted. tell them there taking it too serious. its easy for whites to say, well I wouldnt take offence, yeah right, let me discriminate against your wallet and see how that flys. remember that law that we put in place to help blacks get better jobs and get better chances at grants and spots in the education? you know, the one that made it so if all things were equal, then the minority gets the job. I have heard soo many white people complain about this.
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
its like saying that somethings wrong and people should be punished for said crime
then finding out that our own flesh and blood, our child, our only son has comited such offence. how quick do we change our tune. how vigilently do we stick up for our own. why is homerism a word. couse its common enough to warrent a name.we over value our own and protect our own interest. RUDY IS ON OUR TEAM NOW. so of course people will say its not a big deal
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
If you watched the game, you would have heard the croud BOOOING
True enough, I didn’t watch the game. Good point. I was talking more about American bloggers being up-in-arms concerning this issue (which, in my opinion, doesn’t have a lot to do with them, really), but I gotcha.
its easy for whites to say, well I wouldnt take offence, yeah right, let me discriminate against your wallet and see how that flys. remember that law that we put in place to help blacks get better jobs and get better chances at grants and spots in the education? you know, the one that made it so if all things were equal, then the minority gets the job. I have heard soo many white people complain about this.
I have no idea what you’re saying here. I just got, like, five comments in a row from you and they seem to be equating my post (which was supposed to concern mixed-up feelings about bad stuff and how sometimes it’s misplaced) with moral relativism, if I get you correctly. I’m not sure how to respond… affirmative action’s okay?
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
Im certainly ok with affirmative action
its an example of the same people who say we shouldnt be concerned with whats going on in another country suddenly becoming concerned when the shoe is in the other foot
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
indiference to to racism is approval
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
Oh, come on.
So we’re going to live in a totally sterile environment? Ignore the differences between us? Affirmative action works based off of the recognition of said differences, and that’s cool with me. I’m not against it, but I’m certainly not going to argue it here.
Furthermore, I have no problems with recognizing or even pointing out the differences between people, be it racial, gender-based, skinny, tall, whatever. I DO have problems with people bastardizing such differences into excuses for subjugation, murder or even genocide, however.
All I’m saying is that an obviously playful picture of people we don’t know who live an ocean away from us mocking the physical attributes of another country’s main inhabitants is not necessarily grounds for an embargo. I’m thinking all of this hoopla has a lot more to do with our own nation’s feelings about race (guilt and shame, mostly) than our actually being “offended” by Spaniards doing a grade-school prank. Sure it’s dumb, but it’s not Darfur.
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
if the chinese had greated spain with laughter and high fivesq
I might agree with you. BUT THEY DIDNT. the stadium fricken booed the spanish the whole game. Ive never sean anything like it. the chinese were playing with a tenacity and purpose that almost gave an obviously infirieor opponent a win. china played with a point to make.
Its only obviously playful to you becouse you wont wrap your mind arround how it coud be insulting to the chinese. apathys confortable.
we should feal guilty, we are. there is no reason to go to war with spain for this, I agree, its not darfur. but pretending that it didnt happen or worse that it didnt matter( to any body important) is super lame. tryin to act like “oh its just a funny picture, no big deal, is not making anything better, its condoning it. its showing approval.
my problem with it is people seam to be tryin to confort themselve by acting like its no big deal, when its only no big deal to them. Imagine being embarresed in front of the entire world. thats what happened. in there own living room. the spanish put one finger on their nose and pushed it in, then puted thir lips to make them look bigger then they actually are, took a picture and laughed about it.(hope you catch that that)
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
My point exactly..
we should feal guilty, we are.
Really? WE? Who’s that, you and me? BEdgers? People who live in America? People who share the same pale skin color?
You seem awfully eager to say “indiference to to racism is approval” but to lump you and me into any category that’s responsible for this photo is, in fact, racist, wouldn’t you say?
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
maybee
not sure what you mean.
if I see a crime, however small or large in degree, and dont do anything(or worse act like its nat a big deal) then by default, Iam assisting and there for commiting the same crime.
so if your saying that by pretinding that this photo was harmless when it obviously offended the entire worlds host (china) for our beloved olympics is indifference, then therfore racist, then yes
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
if we ok the photo
we ok racism
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
I think..
that saying “this photo equals racism” is a tough call.
More to the point of my post, though, whether or not it is “offensive” is ENTIRELY a subjective affair and has much, much, much more to do with an individual’s feelings on the matter than what the Spaniards “did”.
Also, if you’re basically saying that “not being offended by this photo means you support mass murder”, then that is a pretty large jump in logic.
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
no its not a tough call
it only requires a conection with the world outside yourself
Also, if you’re basically saying that "not being offended by this photo means you support mass murder", then that is a pretty large jump in logic.
seriously? well maybee, if racism = mass murder.
on the scale of lifes failures this does not rank high, but to pretend that the photo is not racist is to continue to fail.
If I watch a child get beat up by an adult and dont do anything, then I am just as guilty as the attacker. there is NO acceptical excuse. “but he had a gun” you might say. so what, right and wrong are not allways easy, else we’de have less dill holes(new favorite term, the only one that seams to contain the same punch)
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
"dill hole", Your welcome. I know I didn't originate it, but I think I was the most recent to use it. In fact, I called myself a "dill hole" about 3 days ago if I recall.
Keep up the great debate. This is fantastic stuff.
I replied too
Dill and get Bent are two of my Faves
Norsktroll -"Carlos Boozer.............is known in China as "Fan Gu Zai," which, loosely translated, means "Betrayal Skull Guy."
by 92wastheyear on Aug 13, 2008 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Well..
If I watch a child get beat up by an adult and dont do anything, then I am just as guilty as the attacker.
So what exactly are you “doing about it”, ptwn? Saying it’s racist in a comment section of a fanpost on a basketball blog? Is that really the same as stopping an adult from beating up a child?
It seems like, with your metaphor, it would be more appropriate to say:
“If we see an adult beating up a child and don’t casually mention to those around us that we think it’s bad, then we’re just as guilty as the attacker”.
This is exactly what I’m talking about in this main post – being offended isn’t necessarily a good thing and it isn’t, alone, any kind of answer to the problems we’re so upset about in the first place.
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
A bit over the top there ptwnblzr.
"Don't draw fire; it irritates the people around you." - Your Buddies
not at all
if we ok the photo, we ok racism
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
what Im saying is that in the first
twenty coments of sophias thread, all I read was that this is no big deal, like a mom trying to excuse her sons inapropiate behavior to save against his punishment
I have a friend that has no interest in sports. I was at her house and said “you want to hear something funny? she sais ” what” I say” you been watching the olympics at all?” she sais “no, why” I say ” so spain, they have a really good team for basket ball, and we have one of their players on our team, right” she sais ” yeah ok” I say ” so the they all took a team picture with everybody going like this” she looked up, and said “and their in china?” i said ” yup” she said “wow thats stupid, did they get punished, they should be diszualified”
she has no atatchment to rudy and could care less, so she saw immiediatly, what we are trying to neatly and verbosly ignore.
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
Stop assuming it has anything to do with Rudy.
Saying something like we just don’t get it and that we’re only sticking up for Rudy is pretty ignorant and a big generalization.
It’s got nothing to do with Rudy being a Blazer, heck it could have been the Angolan team and I would still feel the same. Seriously I’ve seen you say that a lot and it’s getting pretty old, you’ve accused people of having the views they do on this matter only because of Rudy.
Second, you should stop saying OKing this picture is the same as OKing racism. For one thing nobody is OKing the picture. There’s a big difference between saying something is OK and saying its not a big deal. The Chinese have every right to be offended, but that doesn’t mean this was an act of hate or discrimination by Spain. There’s a huge difference between taking a photo poking fun and acting on hate.
Saying this photo is just flat out racist and those who say its not a big deal are supporting or OKing racism is saying every single comedian who makes racial jokes be them white, black, asian, hispanic or anything is on the same level as slavery and anyone who laughs supports slavery.
Third what exactly do you expect us to do? This was Spain’s doing, not ours. We don’t have to take up arms or even give a rat’s patoot. Say what you wan’t but nobody was really hurt by this. Angry? sure. Offended? yes and rightfully so. But I don’t think many people were all that upset. They boo’d for most of the game sure, but then they also gave a hand to the Spanish player as he was walking off the court after being injured. This too is a generalization as different Chinese people feel differently about it. Some saw is as racist, some found it offensive, some laughed, some didn’t care either way.
This isn’t nearly as big a deal as it’s being made out to be. That does not mean people are saying its ok and are racist just because they don’t see the picture as something worth all this attention.
and any seperation is justification for participation
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
This is interesting.
Mother Teresa did not help old ladies across the street. I am sure she would have, but that is not what she was doing. Here in the USA we don’t really know what she did because it was politically incorrect. More PC than the picture.
Gandhi was nonviolent but pragmatic. We will help you fight Hitler, because maybe there is no other way to get rid of him and his evil, but only if we get our independence. One could find a little good and a little bad in there.
Bedgers don’t like marginally poor behavior like the picture because they have seen where it leads and not only what it does to the victims but the perpetrators. We have had enough of damaged souls polluting our team and everything and everyone around them. The picture may be a baby step, but the step is on a very slippery slope. We want the press, the fans, the refs, and the other team to like us and think that we should get the breaks. Then maybe, even though we are in a small area, we can get a good call once in a while. If we are good enough in every way maybe the players will believe they deserve to win. Rasheed and Bonsi never believed they deserved to win because of their own character. We need to help our team win any way we can. This way is as good as any.
I could be wrong now. But I don't think so!
I know that I failed with my efforts
I hope that you were able to salvage the concept, even if mother terasa never helped any pedestrians.
My reasoning behind its use, was to try and find a fitting template with a polar oppasite fuel. to try and take some grey out.
to all. plreas respond if I truly failed and I will rework my efforts.
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
if you steal a peice of nickel candy
is it less STEALING then stealing a wallet? you can argue all you want, but theft is theft. all your really argueing is degrees. the photo was racist in nature, not as bad as the holocost for sure. so what? its still racist in nature. should it be ok? maybee for us, but really? NO. I dont think so.
its just degrees of the same nature. and pretending that no one should be offended is really(in my opinion) narrow minded. Now yes there is truth that people will get offende for the sake of being offended, but I dont think thats a sensible argument in this case, just calluos.
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
O.K. dude, chill out.
Total comments: 12
ptwn comments: 9.
Not sayin’ I don’t value your opinion (which I do), I’m just sayin’.
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
sorry
I have avoided the other thread since posting there couse I am not well equipt to properly convey my thaoughts there are currently 390 new comments. I accidently ended up in hear tryin to get to the junk drawer. I promise ill stay away. Sorry again.
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
Naw, man. You know I’m not asking you to “stay away”, but it’s been something like a comment every six minutes and it seems like you’re venting about people who commented on another post anyway, so I thought I’d say something. My apologies if I was in your grill or whatever.
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
I don't think its fair to bring up a hot issue like this and then ridicule somebody for being passionate about it...
Personally, I found your post interesting and very well written, but I sort of had my fill on this issue with Sophia’s post. Maybe some are over reacting to these issues, maybe some are under reacting. Its all in the eyes of the beholder.
Also, don’t be sorry ptwnblzr, he asked for your opinion and you obliged. I don’t see anything wrong with that. Plus your padding his comments bro! He should be jacked!!!
RUDY > MJ
Aw, jeez..
I wasn’t “ridiculing him for being passionate”. I posted my thing and within a half hour or so he’d commented a bunch of times and basically accused me of sympathizing with “the first 20 comments” on a different post, being against affirmative action and encouraging petty thievery. I replied to a couple of them and they kept coming. I pointed it out.
It’s not like he had one well-researched reply and I told him to get lost for not agreeing with me.
Plus, I could care less about comment statistics – for conversations, I prefer quality over quantity any day. Generally, the only thing a lot of comments mean is that it’s getting a lot of visitors (or a few noisy ones), and as I’m not Dave or Ben I’m really not worried about hit count.
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
It might..
but that’s definitely not my intention. This post is something I’ve been thinking for a while regarding BEdgers and how they get “offended” somewhat easily (not pointing fingers, I’m including myself).
It sort of came to a head with the Basketbawful article and the Sophia debacle, so hence my reference of each. I probably should have waited for that whole thing to cool down and definitely don’t want a rehashing of that topic, so perhaps I misstepped there.
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
I was trying to click on the junk drawer and found myself in hear, started reading and..........
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
I loved the linked article.
Basketbawfull does an excellent job of capturing my own feelings on the subject of people being easily offended. I just don’t get where folks think they have a right not to be offended.
Actually I do. It’s tied into the whole “victimization” mind set that has been fostered for some time now. Try listening to the news and counting how many times you hear the word victim. Everybody’s a victim it seems. In this case, 1 billion Chinese have been victimized by a handfull of Spanairds. Yeah, sure.
"Don't draw fire; it irritates the people around you." - Your Buddies
the more I read your comment, the less I undertand your point.
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
I don't like my above post and wish I could delete it.
I don’t think my “kidding because I know you” tone is coming across well, even with the smiley face. I hope you know that I respect your opinion and aside from your bad spelling I have no trouble understanding the points you are getting at in your post. I posted a quick little joke I made in my mind without thinking and hit submit, but it’s not funny. When is your phone getting fixed! I left you a message on Friday.
why is this still going on
this would have made a long comment on sophia’s post but this shouldn’t have been another post all together. I’m sure you’re point has already been made somewhere amongst 500 comments over there. At this point, people telling me that I shouldn’t be offended by that picture is pissing me off WAY more than the picture itself. Unbelievable. Lets just drop it people. Either you were offended, or not so much. No one’s changing their minds anymore…DAVE, PLEASE DELETE THIS POST and lets move on to more blazer related news. Hey, anyone see Greg Oden is working out again?
Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely.
"He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors," Frye said after giving up his share to Oden in the workout.
I think I may cry when i see him step on the court for the first time
I CANT WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Leaders build cultures that create self-esteem, generate and sustain trust, elevate the dignity of work , create community and foster open communication, and finally encourage growth and learning.
-Warren Bennis USC Professor
That was a very hard winter,
and it was just like one long night,
with me lying awake, waiting and waiting and waiting
for daybreak.
- Black Elk
1881
You got 444 comments by now with your last fanpost, wow. Nice number, I wonder if people will respect it.
The Midnight Rambler
I dunno, I just saw the pic and posted it, asking some questions that provoked my response
ya digg? It is my first “top rec” fan post so I have been basking in that glory LOL ok just kidding.
Leaders build cultures that create self-esteem, generate and sustain trust, elevate the dignity of work , create community and foster open communication, and finally encourage growth and learning.
-Warren Bennis USC Professor
That was a very hard winter,
and it was just like one long night,
with me lying awake, waiting and waiting and waiting
for daybreak.
- Black Elk
1881
I dunno maybe
Leaders build cultures that create self-esteem, generate and sustain trust, elevate the dignity of work , create community and foster open communication, and finally encourage growth and learning.
-Warren Bennis USC Professor
That was a very hard winter,
and it was just like one long night,
with me lying awake, waiting and waiting and waiting
for daybreak.
- Black Elk
1881
And the poor guys who posted it first in the fanshots and junk drawer got like three responses
I find that blatant act of discrimination against fanshots offensive – and a little sexist ;-)
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
Hmm Well the dood/doodette that posted the fanshot did so and hour ago, therefor
after my post. As for the junkdrawer post. When I created this fanpost I scanned through all the posts on the homepage to make sure it wasn’t a double and didnt notice anything. I may have missed a reference. Anyway, sorry if I did indeed post twice.
I understand that you are most likely trying to make a joke, but should I link the Rebecca Harrlow post by Ben the G and then comment about sexism? Or should I just state that plently of sexist things are written here daily and none of it bothers me. But, then again, I am a pretty thickskinned type of person who isn’t so selfish to think every comment that could be considered sexist is directed towards me or intentionally done to inflict some sort of emotional wound upon me.
Sophia
Leaders build cultures that create self-esteem, generate and sustain trust, elevate the dignity of work , create community and foster open communication, and finally encourage growth and learning.
-Warren Bennis USC Professor
That was a very hard winter,
and it was just like one long night,
with me lying awake, waiting and waiting and waiting
for daybreak.
- Black Elk
1881
I don't blame you..
for not liking this article. In fact, re-reading it today, I can say I agree with you. I got waaaaaaaay off-track with the whole photo thing, which was supposed to be a simple reference/example and nothing more en route to making a case against being offended for the sake thereof. Personally, I don’t think this is delete-worthy, but I totally don’t hold it against you for thinking it’s bad. It’s easily one of the worst arguments I’ve ever made, or at least written down. So, there ya go.
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
The picture was tasteless, tacky and shoddy.
But offended? I don’t like that word much (I also dislike the overused term “not acceptable” but that’s OT).
The Chinese on the other hand …. I would completely understand any feelings they may be having.
I remember telling him how impressed I was with a player during summer league. In Avery's unique voice, he replied, "Marc, it's summer league." I
Don't fans of all teams boo their opponents?
I didn’t see the China/Spain game and haven’t seen any Olympic basketball games in decades (something wrong about that, I know), so I’ll have to take your word that the booing was well above and beyond the norm.
I agree this entire thread should be part of Sophia’s thread. Maybe Dave can cut-and-paste it over there… It’s a great discussion and I’m still learning new stuff.
The slanty-eyes photo and the lynching of a black man may both be examples of racism, but you have to measure your response to the crime. If my kid sets the cat on fire, my reaction is going to be a lot more severe than if he steals a cookie from the cookie jar before dinner.
Affirmative Action = Racism. Argue for it if you like, but you cannot spin that any other way.
Ptwnblzr, keep bringing it. I don’t agree with everything you say, but I like that you’re saying it.
Asked his specialty in the kitchen, Oden paused and said, "Hamburger Helper and tuna fish."
I saw it on NBCOlympics without commentary, you just hear the audience and squeaking of sneakers on the floor (kind of relaxing)
I can affirm that there was way more booing in this game than in any of the other games I have seen so far in the Olympics (e.g. in the China – USA game). But that might have been because the game was close almost the whole time so the fans hoped they could really win this one. I doubt many people in the audience had seen the picture and reacted to it, unless the Chinese news agency Xinhua had picked it up and distributed it to TV stations and newspapers (which I can’t verify right now). Few people would have access to the NYT and the Guardian website where the picture was posted first.
P.S.: Watching the USA – Angola game afterwards, due being able to here the players better, it confirmed to me once again that Melo yells something very similar to “Ahw hit” every time he goes up for a rebound and gets contact with another player. I might find that offensive…
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
seriously?
the booing had nothing to do with it being a close game then that, I have not seen the chinese boo ANY of their compatition in ANY avent. Yes of course they will cheer their own, but they have not boooed. At least in anything Ive seen.
Why would you doubt they had seen it? we had. and we werent even involved. are the chinese so inept, that when something insulting is released to the world wide internet, they will never find it? they know how to use those computer thingys, infact ill bet the one your on know was even made over there. if it was really a joke meant in fun, why would spain hide it? if they didnt hide it why would the chinese not have seen it? ignorance can be forgivable, intentional ignorence is social instintual retardation.
NYT, as in the New York Times? Dude if thats what that means, then I know you dont really mean that. wow. hard to imagine someone(like Norsktroll) in china having an interest in anything boarne of forign soil. hears another one Do you think anybody living in new yourk can speak chinese?? I meen I know the world passed that law that prevented any body of chinese from being uot side of chine, and the sub law stating that anybody that knows any one that can speak chinease is not alloud on either of those websights. stupid rule really, since I would NEVER tell a friend if I found something online that I thought might interest him. Phew, good thing we all know that china has now friends. so now we can safley asume that they had nooo idea.
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
Try googling China's Censorship
They have pretty solid control over what their citizens read and watch. Yes, some stuff makes it in, but not as much as you apparently think.
The CHinese goverment hides this type of information on a regular basis. I’m sure it’s leaked in there, but if the Chinese officials decided not to run it on the state media outlets, well there’s not much else. 1.3 billion is a lot when you’re talking about word of mouth.
No one on a computer in China can access amnesty international’s website. I’m not sure what the policy on the NYT is.
Next time someone writes something that sounds crazy, maybe you should check a few sources before lambasting them. That way, when you personally attack them, you’ll have a leg to stand on.
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do you honestly think the chinese hid this from their people, do you have any proof?
or are you just guessing?
in order to hide it, the chinese government would have to know about it.
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
ptwn raises a good point
this doesn’t seem like the Chinese gov’t. would HIDE from its people, regardless of its ability to do so.
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
I didn't say they did
I said it sounded foolish to think lambast Norkstoll the way he did. China’s capable of doing so. Also, what I know of China is that their risk averse, dislike scenes and public confrontation. The Chinese government may react, but I wouldn’t expect it to. In fact, completely ignoring and suppressing all talk of it is what I’d GUESS would happen (that guess does come from 10 years of studying IR and much of that involved China’s relations with the world). China’s bid, from the start, was to prove to the world that they arrived and could compete on any stage. Any distraction from that point, any point of contention would make them lose face and credibility. This is the Chinese mind.
I would not say they are hiding it right now. But, I would say it’s totally within the realm of possibility. China’s done far stranger things to save face.
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10 years of studying IR
That’s pretty ambitious for a hobo!
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
Pretty stupid, and it's really not that long
I only meant to say that it’s totally possible given the things I’ve heard about happening. In fact, this wouldn’t even really make the radar.
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Great minds think alike ;-)
Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."
your too much biased
They know the photo if we know the photo. one can confort themselve making excuses all they want about the booing, it had nothing to do with it being a close game. for them it was personal.
do you think maybee that when they built those stadiums, they might have installed some sort of system for transmitting information to the people present? I dont know, maybee some sort of moving PICTURE system? hell, we have them at the rose gardon, before the game, they show interviews with our players, or other games being played elsewhere. I wonder if anyone can control what is being played on those tvs? I wonder if national pride is important to the chinese?
How can we really think that they did not see the photo? thinking otherwize is intentially ignoring reality through fundamentaly flawed thinking.
amlmart1 – Your one of my favorite stories hear, and I have several of your quotes saved on my computer for later use, so i just want you to know this is not directed wholey and specificaly at you, but of course you are included
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
Ooopps. I don´t feel offended, do not worry at all.
My statement was based in these: We knew the photo after the game, me too. The photo was only matter of news in Western press. Chineese people from China didn´t make the slight statement about the photo, NOBODY, NOTHING. If the Spanish team or Spanish authorities heard a single statement by the Chineese authorities against the photo they´ll react inmediately and apologize for the mistake.
The Midnight Rambler
Update:
Li Wang, correspondent in Madrid of a Chinese group of communication said: " the advertisement is unknown in China, I refer to the great public, do not even believe that there exists a Chinese in China who bothers because the photography. Even more, I do not believe that many will understand it. Where is offense? Certainly that I do not consider to be offensive".
Link
The Midnight Rambler
I saw it on the national news
And they showed a lot of Chinese people in China the photo and they said, “We are above that.” They said it was not worth getting upset over. I paraphrased the last part.
Just like 12shark was getting at, this became more about what is offensive and less about who was offended.
"I grab every opportunity to tweak Timbo." - annthefan
Ahh..
thanks guys. It’s nice to know I’m not a huge jerk after all.
It turns out, “We’re above that” would have been the best possible name for this post – BEdgers, Americans, Spaniards and Chinese alike – taking offense to something is, as has become clearer to me through the evolution of this post, less a virtue of righteous moral standing and more a symptom of knee-jerk intolerance (perhaps. in cases. you know what I mean). The stance the Chinese took in this case seems very honorable and just plain understanding and mature, in this BEdger’s opinion.
Also, I hate the phrase “knee-jerk”-anything, but there it is, nonetheless. Tolerance abounds.
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
No
some fans just cheer their team.
"I love Sheed. I wish he’d write a children’s book. Maybe he’d call it - How to $&%# Cuss Like a Big Boy."
--- tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 6:29 PM PDT
Email Dave,
--- Mortimer --- for Blazers Edge Ambassador to the SBNations
I agree with your comment to Ptwnblzr.
"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar
Taking offense is a sign of weakness
Many feel that weakness is a virtue
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You seem to be using the term 'offense'
in a way that envelopes many different meanings. Without being rude, I don’t think you should do so. If you look at pictures of a concentration camp, you’re not being offended because it doesn’t personally relate to you. What’s happening is that picture shows an instance of what you believe to be morally wrong. The reaction isn’t to take offense, but to become outrage, angry, out of your mind.
Had someone taken the picture and shown it to you simply to evoke a reaction (whether the expected reaciton was good or bad), then you could take offense because there was an action directed at you. In your example, you came across the picture and the actions taken to provide you with that picture had nothing to do with you as a person.
Likewise, the material or target of the action must be personal. A piture of Vietnam (unless you were the one in the picture) does not relate to you specifically, but to a broader idea. Your personhood or identity is NOT in question.
Those that take offense at images or actions that did not personally target them reify themselves as something broader than they are. It’s the hubris common to liberal philosophies (I’m one, and am not talking political punditry so don’t start) that allows one to extend one’s identity and claim it across a spectrum of agents. In other words, we reify our identity and imagine that if that were us, we’d be offended. Thus, taking offense at an image that did not target your identity demonstrates sloppy thinking.
Either your angry at the breach of what you consider to be a moral code, or your identity extends far beyond yourself to a degree that you claim yourself a target of an image of Vietnam. The difference is significant.
There’s a tremendous danger in extending our identities and taking offense when we’re not targeted. Most notibly is silences critics and alienates a majority of a population. It silences the critics because they’ll worry about personally harming a person (someone taking offense) and the reaction that will come. If the critic sees identities extending everywhere (say for instance from Portland to China), and fears retribution, then why should he or she speak? This in turn alienates the vast majority of the population who are generally silent critics (they think but don’t want to speak). Because we’re all one, taking offense and thus relating our personhoods that are simultaneously unigue and value irrelevant to everyone else in the world, we lose the ability to distinguish which groups we belong to. We end up imagining that we belong to none.
That’s too long, and all I meant to say was that people are thinking very hard about what’s offensive in terms of actions, but they haven’t stopped to think about what ‘offensive’ means. If we’re to create a taxonomy of offenses, let’s please at least bother to look at the meaning of the word.
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by hobobob on Aug 13, 2008 1:27 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Please correct me if I'm wrong..
but I think we’re in exact agreement here and much of what you’ve so eloquently mentioned were points I was trying to make through my post.
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
My bad, then.
I read your post, and didn’t see you make the main points. Language is such a strange thing though. It always takes me like ten years to realize me and the homeless guy are usually saying the same thing.
After going back and looking at it, I think we’re hoping for similar results but saying different things. Sounds like you’re saying, this isn’t a big deal, whereas I’m saying you (meaning each individual person) isn’t a big deal. Sort of similar, but pretty different.
Either way we can get there though, I’m with you.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
"The slanty-eyed picture isn't hurting anyone"
If 12sharks says so, then it must be true.
No, seriously..
I’m glad you’re coming around. People just don’t get it at first.
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
I've composed and deleted about six posts
suffice it to say that I am more offended by being told over and over that I am going out of my way to be offended and to play the victim than I ever was by that photo. Get over it, indeed.
I seem to recall a saying taught me by my parents.
“Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.”
I can understand if something like that photo might bother you. Allowing it to hurt or offend you I see more as your problem, not as one belonging to the Spanish team or the rest of us. If what I’m saying here offends you, well, I am sorry it does, as that is not my intent, but I still see it mostly as being your problem, not mine. To paraphrase hobobob (who I recommended), I’m not going to let someone’s sensitivities restrict my ability to express my opinion. And in this instance, my opinion is that way too much is being made of this issue.
"Don't draw fire; it irritates the people around you." - Your Buddies
Semantics
as Hobobob eloquently pointed out – has a lot to do with whether or not we “take offense” at something. Just what does it mean to “be offended?” I would guess that we all have a different take on it. It would range from getting one’s feelings hurt to moral outrage.
But also a great deal of it is environment. How we were raised, the community in which we live, the people we choose to surround ourselves with. What may be offensive in one circumstance may not be so in another. Language that is appropriate with your peers may not be appropriate in the workplace. I have a cartoon on my refrigerator that made me laugh out loud because it addresses something I have ranted about. However, if a particular someone, very dear to me, were to visit I would hide the cartoon. That person would deem it offensive. Is the cartoon itself offensive? Well, it was published in the Oregonian so it must have passed some sort of muster there. I’m not offended by it and I have friends who have laughed when I told them about it. But I respect the fact that it might offend others.
Are people who are offended thin-skinned or narrow minded? Or do they just see the world differently? Or is it totally related to YOU looking at them being offended?
I admit to being offended when I was called the b word here a few weeks ago. That’s because my world is different from the writer’s and in my world that word isn’t tossed around lightly. It’s used only in its most negative manifestation. Was I wrong to be offended? No. Was the writer wrong to use it? No. Was the writer wrong for not knowing I would be offended? No. Was I wrong for not knowing that it has a different meaning nowadays? Questionable. Am I still offended? No. I understand it was not done with malice, but I certainly was “taken aback” when I first read it.
I think all we can do is be tolerant of everyone’s level of being offended. Sort of like a pain threshold. What physically causes me pain may be just a minor owie to you – but please be tolerant of my pain, I am not a wimp or crybaby – it hurts!
"We, as Blazer fans, are perhaps the luckiest fans in the league."-Idog1976, July 19.
by jorga on Aug 13, 2008 2:38 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
thank you, jorga
this is precisely what I was trying, and failing, to say, and with far more care than I was capable of.
I hear you, and thanks.
I agree that sensitivity to others’ sensitivities is a high-quality characteristic to have. I also think, however, that many people in this day in age equate taking offense to something like taking a moral stand on a matter or as proof that they, too, disapprove of something. I think that one can disapprove of something without being offended. I also think that taking offense alone does not achieve anything productive in of itself.
For instance, ptwn says that “if we ok the photo, we ok racism”. Well, whether he’s correct or not aside, how are any of us doing anything about this? Typing “I don’t like it – it’s racist” in a fanpost’s comment section? This seems like a very safe, easy and convenient form of “activism” and also a terribly ineffective one. It seems that, like the article I linked to points out, being offended about anything we disagree with (or perhaps, even, don’t understand) is quite en vogue of late, and I see that as one of the most INsensitive approaches to communication around.
Thanks again for your comment. It was a super duper read as always.
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
Sensitivity at the expense of another's world
It’s the classic ‘how much freedom can a person have?” question. At some point, one person’s freedom limits anothers. Should I not make a joke about fat people (incidentally I don’t make those jokes) to care for their delicate sensibilities? That joke may relieve stress and pressure, and may be appropriate. It’s a rule governed world, and those rules are nearly always situational. But, at some point, conflict occurs, confrontation is necessary. Stronger parties usually prevail. It’s not what’s right or wrong, it’s the battle-field of ideas (look up Michel Foucault).
If we’re to treat other’s qualities with tolerance, shouldn’t we have good reason to do so if it means sacfricing something valuable for your happiness? I’m not actually saying it’s the case, but if you plead for others to deal with you serenely, shouldn’t you be willing to recirpocate that sentiment. After all, it was the offended that framed the debate, while many wished it didn’t happen. Why weren’t the offended sensitive to our initial tolerance?
It’s fair for you to ask us to be tolerant of sensitivity. But, it was fair for also to ask for your tolerance in the first place. Intolerance usally does not breed tolerance.
Speaking of that word….. oh well… that’s just such a long topic…. let’s just say that being able to do something about the action is question is necessary to actually tolerate something. It’s impossible for me to be tolerant of anyone’s sensitivities that I can’t change. So…. it’s probably better that none of us ever need to be tolerant of one another’s sensitivities.
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This is OT but, wow, Jorga, I feel I have to take some of the heat for that b word incident.
The whole thing started when the same person called me the HBIC in a previous thread. I had no idea what that meant so I googled it and this is the definition I found. Anyway, I hoped that I was paying you a compliment when I told the person thanks, but I thought that appellation fit you better than I because you’d been here longer and had a lot of bball knowledge. After the more universal meaning came out in the thread you mentioned, and you were obviously offended, I googled the term again and came up with different results. I realized that the person who called both of us the HBIC was actually complimenting us in 22 year old speak. I guess this is a clear example of the conversational generation gap. I better buy a new dictionary. Sorry for my part in giving offense where none was meant.
"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar
It can get rough in the blogosphere;
but annthefan and jorga are always a pleasure. There’s nothing but love coming from you two.
Ha Ha
I wish you could be nice like me and never offend Jorga.
"I grab every opportunity to tweak Timbo." - annthefan
Well, yeah, but you're a silver tongued statesman and I've heard you have
a belligerent posse who will take care of anyone who complains about your offensive behavior. Something should be done about people like you.
"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar
Men and women are different. The French say "Vive la difference!"
It doesn´t mean you like discrimination.
People of different races are different somehow and that makes the humanity richer too. Probably one day someone will discover how to translate to other races the immunity of black people for skin-cancer, for example. Only historical reasons have given so much weight to the word “race”. Yeah, we must be on alert because there are racists out there and even be aware of ourselves because perhaps we don´t understand what we are doing. But when people throw the word “racist” or “racist behavior” against someone who is good people and the least of a racist that you can imagine, because of such little thing in someone´s cultural environment, that´s material for racists to be happy. It doesn´t mean you can´t say, “Hi, friend, think about this”.
When talking about offenses you can judge the offender and the offended too. This debate will offend most of the Spanish people (I´m not offended at all) as we, the people posting in this blog, might feel offended if we go to a muslim blog in many countries and heard how they feel offended about “too many” Western/Christian behavior. Imagine that for a while … even If they have the “alter ego” of Dave ruling that blog.
The Midnight Rambler
I vote we leave this topic (as fun as it is) ...
… with hobobod, 12shark and jorga having the floor.
If I ticked anybody off, my apologies. Particularly to abdelnaby, grimc and ptwnblzr. I may not always agree with you, but that doesn’t mean I don’t listen.
"Don't draw fire; it irritates the people around you." - Your Buddies

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